Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 1 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Tuesday, November 5, 2002
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 8:33 a.m., in Room 705 of the Victoria Building, pursuant to rule 88 of the rules of the Senate, to hold an organisational meeting.
[Translation]
Mr. Richard Maurel, the Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, I am the clerk of your committee. Pursuant to rule 88 of the rules of the Senate, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am ready to receive motions to that effect.
Senator Gauthier: Honourable senators, I move:
That the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool be Chair of this Committee.
Mr. Maurel: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Gauthier that Senator Losier-Cool be chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Maurel: Honourable senators, I now invite Senator Losier-Cool to take the chair.
The Honourable Rose-Marie Losier-Cool (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Maurel. Before moving on to the next part of the meeting, I just want to say that I am sure you realize the importance of this committee for us, the Senate and the two minority groups. It would be essential that the members of the committee commit themselves to their work. This will be our strength. It goes without saying that we will regularly be assessed by our colleagues in both Houses, and certainly also by the media. I am counting on you; I need your support. A committee is strong to the extent that its members are strong and committed. We shall now move immediately to the election of the deputy chairman of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.
Senator Comeau: Honourable senators, I move:
That the Honourable Senator Keon be Deputy Chair of this Committee.
[English]
The Chairman: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Comeau that the Honourable Senator Keon be deputy chair of the committee.
[Translation]
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion number 3 concerns the creation of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. It is requested that this committee be made up of a chairman, a deputy chairman and one other member to be designated before the next meeting. Would someone care to move this motion?
Senator Gauthier: Honourable senators, I move:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be created and composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair and one other member of this committee to be designated later.
[English]
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next item on the agenda is the role of the steering committee, which determines the agenda of this committee, invites witnesses before this committee and schedules hearings of this committee. Do I have a motion to that effect?
[Translation]
Senator Beaudoin: Honourable senators, I move:
That, on behalf of this committee, the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure determine the agenda of this committee, invite witnesses before this committee and schedule hearings of this committee.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item number 5 concerns the staff of the committee. Who would like to move the motion?
Senator Beaudoin: Honourable senators, I move:
That this committee ask the Library of Parliament Research Branch to assign a research analyst to this committee.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Gauthier: I would like to be certain that the person chosen is a person who is competent to do research, who knows the issues, and who is recognized as someone who is involved in official languages. It is essential to the proper functioning of a committee that it be backed by good research. I would like to ensure that it be ascertained that the person assigned is the person we need. I simply wanted to make this comment because it does happen sometimes that we are the last committee to be assigned a researcher. I don't want a researcher who is not interested in official languages. I want someone who is involved and who knows the issue. There are not very many.
The Chairman: I fully agree with you, Senator Gauthier, and I will convey these concerns to the Administration of the Library.
Senator Léger: Does the research analyst of the committee have to be a public servant? Mr. Stéphane Dion has just created an official languages chair at the University of Moncton. Could the researcher be chosen from that university, or from somewhere else?
The Chairman: The person must be a member of the staff of the Library.
Senator Léger: Thank you.
The Chairman: I am sure that the Library has competent people who would be able to meet Senator Gauthier's concerns and who will take the effectiveness of our committee to heart.
Senator Gauthier: Last year, members of the committee sometimes received research documents at the last minute. They did not have the time to read the documents and prepare their questions. The hearing quickly became frustrating for several of the members of the committee because the question period was not organized, rational and centred on the witnesses' expertise.
I do not want us to put questions to witnesses we know nothing about week after week. That is why I would like us to prepare our questions and our files and to know who will be appearing before the committee and why. We have to be able to ask intelligent questions if we are to obtain information and not just ask questions for the simple sake of asking questions.
The Chairman: I agree entirely with Senator Gauthier.
The next item concerns companies or experts.
[English]
It is moved by Honourable Senator Comeau:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to negotiate the contracts and retain the services of such companies or experts as is required by the work of this committee.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[Translation]
Senator Lapointe: Honourable senators, I move:
That the Chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to hire such counsel, technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for this committee's study of bills, subject-matters of bills and estimates referred to this committee.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item number 8 concerns direction of the work. It is moved that on behalf of this committee the chair direct its research staff in the preparation of analyses, draft reports, studies, summaries and other documents.
I think that this motion will meet Senator Gauthier's expectations as well as those of all committee members. It is important that the person assigned work very closely with the chair to direct the committee.
Would someone care to move the motion?
Senator Léger: Honourable senators, I move:
That the Chair, on behalf of this committee, direct its research staff in the preparation of analyses, draft reports, studies, summaries and other documents.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item number 9 concerns the hearings and proceedings of the committee. It is moved that the committee always meet from 5:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. every second Monday in room 257 of the East Block. Room 705 of the Victoria Building is the room that was assigned to us for the meeting of the Official Languages Committee. It is a nice room but it does cause certain organizational problems.
Senator Gauthier: I don't agree with this motion. It is certainly not the committee that decided that we should meet every second week. If we want to do serious work, we should not be told to meet every second week or once a month.
We should make this decision after a discussion on the programm we will have before us. Second, I do not think it is justified to set the meeting for Monday from 5:30 to 8:30, at dinner time.
The Francophonie room is always free and is in the Centre Block. We could meet in that room. That is why I would like this motion to be postponed until the next meeting.
Senator Lapointe: I agree with Senator Gauthier.
The Chairman: I am going to hear comments, and then I will explain the options. Firstly, it is true that the Francophonie Room is one of the nicest rooms on the Hill, but it is not equipped for interpretation services. We are thus very limited as to the choice of meeting rooms and we must take the schedule of other committees into account.
Senator Beaudoin: I agree with the suggestion of postponing motion number 9 since we will not be able to make a decision today.
The Official Languages Committee meets either Monday or Tuesday, or both. I sit on the Human Rights Committee on Monday. It would be possible to conciliate the meeting times of those two committee hearings since the Human Rights Committee meets biweekly. It will be difficult to agree on a time but this is secondary.
Senator Gauthier suggests that we meet weekly. I agree with him. Perhaps we should meet on alternte Mondays and Tuesdays, since another committee is sitting at the same time. That is why I would like to postpone studying the motion before deciding anything.
We now have our senatorial committee, which will be more effective, I believe, than the joint committee, where we used to be able to ask one question after listening to an hour and a half of testimony. With good researchers, we will work more effectively and we will be able to meet. That is what I wanted us to take into consideration.
The Chairman: Indeed, three members of the Official Languages Committee also sit on the Human Rights Committee which meets Monday at 5 p.m..
Senator Beaudoin: It meets every second Monday.
The Chairman: Precisely, and our committee would sit on the alternate Monday and the meeting would last three hours. We would have as many hours. Mr. Maurel will circulate the list of committees and available rooms.
Senator Comeau: We will not be able to make a decision today. It would be a good idea to examine the schedule Mr. Maurel is circulating and see whether there is an alternative. Personally, I strongly doubt it. However, if we examine the schedule, we can then decide what to do.
The Chairman: Do you want us to look at the schedule that has been distributed to us now?
Senator Gauthier: The Francophonie Room has now been in existence for 20 years already. I can tell you about it, since I put forward the idea of designating a Francophonie Room because we had a Commonwealth Room. Conservative ministers were favourable to the idea and they decided to go ahead with it. Cabinet meetings have taken place in that room. I have gone to defend bills in that room. We had interpretation. There may not be the same facilities as we have here, with lights and all of that, but a small booth was set up for the interpreters. If we don't insist, we will not get that. We should insist since there is a problem with room availability. Many committees meet and there is a very nice room which would suit us which is not too big and can easily be set up for the purposes of the committee. I will not back down until I am told that it is impossible. As far as I am concerned, it is possible.
The Chairman: Senator Gauthier, do you think that the room would be big enough to set up an interpreters' booth? As you know, the Official Languages Committee is popular and is generally very well attended.
Senator Gauthier: I am partial to small committees. A small committee works better than a large committee. The joint committee was too big and we always got to speak last. Here, we will be in control. We have to launch our undertaking on a level playing field.
I invited 60 people to a reception in that room last week. A very large table was built inside the room; thus, it can't be taken out easily, but it can very well be pushed up against the wall. Someone will have to explain to me why we can't have interpretation services in that room; I don't understand why not.
Senator Beaudoin: I agree, but one thing concerns me. Senator Gauthier believes that a meeting every two weeks will not be sufficient. I understand how he feels. So we should meet on the Monday when the Human Rights Committee is not sitting, and we need to find another slot. Which one? Tuesdays? The joint committee sat on Mondays and Tuesdays because a single slot was not sufficient. If we can, with a smaller and better organized committee, sit only once a week, that would be ideal. However, on the Mondays when the Human Rights Committee meets, we will have to meet elsewhere. So I was wondering whether the issue of meeting on Mondays and Tuesdays should not be settled.
The Chairman: Perhaps we should study the availability of human resources as well as that of committee members before examining more technical details.
Senator Comeau: One of the suggestions was that we meet earlier on Mondays, from 3 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. This would be a problem for me because in order to be here on Monday, I must leave Nova Scotia on Sunday morning. My family life would suffer greatly.
The Chairman: My situation is the same as Senator Comeau's.
Senator Comeau: So, let us forget the idea of meeting on Mondays before 4 p.m..
The Chairman: If you live outside of Ottawa, it is difficult.
Senator Lapointe: Would 4 p.m. be the ideal time?
The Chairman: Some senators are members both of the Official Languages Committee and the Human Rights Committee. At 5 p.m., the members of the Human Rights Committee will leave. We could meet at 4 p.m. every second Monday.
Senator Lapointe: I propose that the committee meet biweekly at 4 p.m. for three hours. By starting by 4 p.m., if we have a lot of work to do, nothing prevents us from continuing for an additional half hour. I am against the idea of meeting every week. This will cause problems if both committees sit at the same time.
The Chairman: It is possible to have quality three-hour meetings. At the end of the year, we will probably have logged as many meeting hours as the other Senate committees. As for the suggestion that we meet at noon on Wednesdays, since that is the time reserved for the Women's Caucus, it would be impossible for me.
Senator Beaudoin: If we agree to hold three-hour meetings on a biweekly basis we will be able to do a great deal of work. I am convinced that we will not be able to sit for more than three hours. At the time of the joint committee, we had to wait an hour and a half before the senators were given the floor — which is totally unacceptable — and we sat Mondays and Tuesdays. It does not make sense. I am in agreement with the suggestion that meetings last for three hours on alternate weeks. If that is impossible, we can have meetings on Monday one week, and on Tuesday the next.
The Chairman: We could amend this motion and have it read: from 4 p.m. to 7 p.m.
Senator Beaudoin: It would not be the end of the world.
Senator Gauthier: I have no problem with the committee meeting every second week as long as there is a preparatory meeting before the main meeting. If we can meet among ourselves with the people who made the inquiry or did the research work so that we can ask them questions and have them enlighten us on the topic at hand, that would be all right. There is the example of the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages, which has just had its budget increased by 1.7 million dollars to hire personnel — lawyers, researchers, et cetera — to help the committee do its work. We should meet those people before meeting Mr. Milton and the officials from his Air Canada group. We could talk to the people who investigated the issue for Canadian men and women and familiarize ourselves with existing problems. This would be much more intelligent than simply going on a fishing expedition each time we come to the committee. I would prefer that we have an organization meeting between the two weeks when the committee sits, a meeting which could take place in a small room.
The Chairman: Or in your office.
Senator Gauthier: Or in my office, if you wish. Those who are not interested will not come, but those who are interested in Air Canada can come. In the public service, a new organization will be entrusted with the responsibility for official languages for the government as a whole. This will be a large agency and we should acquaint ourselves with it in order to be able to ask relevant questions.
The Chairman: This motion gives me the flexibility I seek. I would like to have a motion amending the time of the meeting.
Senator Comeau: Honourable senators, I move:
That this committee always meet from 4 p.m. to 7 p.m., every second Monday in room 257 of the East Block.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Lapointe: Are we abandoning the idea of the Francophonie Room?
Senator Comeau: That is another story.
The Chairman: We have to keep the Centre Block meeting room. We will study that matter later.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, item number 10 concerns the quorum.
Would a senator care to move this motion?
Senator Gauthier: Honourable senators, I move:
That, pursuant to rule 89, the Chair be authorised to hold hearings to receive evidence and to have it printed when a quorum is not present, provided that at least one member of this committee from each of the government and the opposition be present.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[English]
The Chairman: The next motion on our agenda relates to the authority to print committee proceedings.
[Translation]
Senator Lapointe: Honourable senators, I move:
That this committee print its proceedings.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, motion number 10 concerns the number of copies to be printed.
Would a senator care to move the motion?
Senator Léger: Honourable senators, I move:
That the Chair be authorised to set from time to time the number of printed copies of the proceedings of this committee as required.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, item number 13 concerns expenses. It concerns witnesses' travel. The committee reimburses those travelling and living expenses if they arise.
Will a senator move this motion?
Senator Comeau: Honourable senators, I move:
That, pursuant to rule 102 and the Senate guidelines for witnesses' expenses, this committee have the authority and discretion to reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization, with payment to take place following a formal claim by the witness.
Senator Beaudoin: As a general rule, yes. Now it could happen that we have to hear two witnesses. What do we do in such a situation?
The Chairman: From each organization?
Senator Beaudoin: From an organization in particular. There is not much latitude.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, item number 14 concerns supplemental witnesses.
Would a senator care to move this motion?
Senator Gauthier: Honourable senators, I move:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses' expenses, and if exceptional circumstances warrant it, the Chair have the discretion to approve the reimbursement of reasonable travelling and living expenses for a second witness from a given organization.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, item number 15 concerns commitment authority.
Will a senator move this motion?
Senator Comeau: Honourable senators, I move:
That, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, the authority to commit the funds of this committee be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair and the Clerk of this Committee.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, item number 16 is on certification authority.
Would a senator care to move this motion?
Senator Comeau: Honourable senators, I move:
That, pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act and Guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, the authority to certify the accounts payable by this committee be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair and the Clerk of this Committee.
Senator Beaudoin: That is the practice.
Senator Gauthier: This means that all of the expenses must be approved by the Chair, the Deputy Chair and the Clerk of the committee?
The Chairman: No, this concerns the authority.
Senator Gauthier: I am quoting:
... be conferred individually on ...
So, that means the chair, the deputy chair and the clerk of the committee.
The Chairman: That is correct.
Senator Beaudoin: Do we want it to be one of the three? I do not understand the rationale behind this.
Senator Comeau: Generally, it is the same person, but in exceptional circumstances, if the chair or the clerk is not there, the deputy chair may give his authorization.
Senator Beaudoin: I would think that this would be the chair's responsibility and if he is absent, it becomes that of the deputy chair.
The Chairman: We can amend this if you are not comfortable with giving the clerk that authority. Most committees operate like this.
Senator Beaudoin: It must be clearly understood that the authority to certify the accounts rests with the chair first and foremost, but I would leave the motion as it stands.
The Chairman: We apply section 34 of the Financial Administration Act.
Senator Beaudoin: To the letter?
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, item number 17, concerning television coverage and broadcasting.
Would a senator care to move the motion?
Senator Gauthier: Honourable senators, I move:
That the Chair be authorised to seek permission from the Senate to have the public proceedings of this committee, at its discretion, televised with the least possible disruption of its hearings.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, item number 18 concerns persons authorised to travel.
Would a senator care to move this motion?
Senator Gauthier: I have a question. I do not want any in camera meetings, if possible. I am a firm believer in public meetings. We should make this a rule and apply it rigorously. Do you agree?
The Chairman: Yes, absolutely.
Senator Beaudoin: This is not what we are studying right now. It is off the topic of the motion.
The Chairman: It is not in the motion, but I agree with the principle of not having in camera proceedings; as seldom as possible, in any case.
Senator Léger: Honourable senators, I move:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure have the power to designate, as required, one or more members of this committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of this committee.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item number 19 concerns the determination of ``official business.'' Would a senator care to move this motion?
Senator Beaudoin: What is the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure?
The Chairman: It is the steering committee.
Senator Beaudoin: Why do we not call it that? Suddenly this other one crops up out of nowhere.
The Chairman: In the Rules of the Senate, it is referred to as the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. It is the same as the steering committee.
Senator Beaudoin: It came out of nowhere, like a UFO.
Senator Léger: Honourable senators, I move:
That, for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998, the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorised to consider a member of this committee to be on ``official business'' if the member is: (a) attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of this committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of this committee.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item number 20 concerns documents and their distribution. Would a senator care to move the motion?
Senator Comeau: Honourable senators, I move:
That documents to be distributed to the members and staff of this committee be distributed via electronic mail whenever possible.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Gauthier: I would like us to adopt a clear and precise policy on the documents which will be distributed to this committee via our clerk. No document should be distributed in a single language. All documents coming from the clerk should be in both of the official languages of Canada.
The Chairman: On the same date.
Senator Gauthier: Clearly. Now, if a witness is unilingual, I have no objection to that person distributing his document to the Senators, but he should not give it to the clerk. Do you understand what I am saying?
The Chairman: I think that that is normal committee procedure. Senator Comeau?
Senator Comeau: A question concerning the role of the steering committee, at item number 4. We passed the motion that the steering committee determine the agenda of this committee. Just a suggestion: the steering committee could, after determining the future business of the committee, discuss this plan with the committee, since you want your committee members to be involved. Members involved in decisions are happier and more interested in the topic. You could discuss the plan with all of the members.
The Chairman: That is a very good suggestion. I believe the role of the steering committee is to direct the work of the committee, to prepare an overall plan of future meetings, et cetera.
Are there any other comments? I do not know if Senator Gauthier was moving a motion, on the matter of documents to be distributed by the clerk in both official languages?
Senator Beaudoin: No one can be against this. The very essence of a committee is to be bilingual.
The Chairman: Would you like to make that a motion, Senator Gauthier?
Senator Gauthier: I so move. It is in fact in the rules of the Senate, I believe. It is often forgotten. Often, the clerk distributes a document in one language only. I am frustrated because my working language is French. When a document is distributed in English, I find it a bit difficult because I like to work in my language. I have another motion to move.
The Chairman: Yes, but we are going to vote and it will be part of the minutes of this meeting. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion on the distribution of documents?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Gauthier: You will understand that I have a particular interest in this topic; I have been a member of an official languages committee for 30 years. I made a list of motions I had made to the former committee, last March 11. They passed about six of the ten I suggested. There are about five or six left. I have an additional list of 11 topics I would like to circulate. These topics will interest you and they are timely. My reason is that I cannot distribute it before having the agreement of my Senate colleagues. I want to know if this interests them. There is a lot of work. We must not be scared of that, but there are daily commitments. The idea of holding a meeting every two weeks bothers me a bit because certain things will necessitate long-term preparation. If we know witnesses are coming in two or three weeks, that is okay. But if we have an emergency, I think we should be able to use our common sense and convene a meeting.
The Chairman: The chair always has that power.
Senator Gauthier: For instance, there was some terrible media publicity about Air Canada: a directive asked that unilingual francophone Canadians be seated elsewhere than next to an exit. It is ridiculous, stupid. I asked to see those documents yesterday. I asked for the Air Canada internal administrative document. They replied: ``Mr. Gauthier, it is an internal administrative document which is not public.'' They said, however, that Mr. Dion had a copy. I said: ``How is it that Minister Dion has a copy and that Gauthier cannot have one?'' It was not a public document. I was told to phone Dion's office. I phoned Dion's office to obtain a copy of the safety procedures. They said no. We have a small problem. We have a political problem and a serious problem with Air Canada. We have to put our foot down and say: Stop fooling around and send us that document.
Senator Lapointe: Send us individual copies of the texts you are referring to so that we may study them. It is easy; if you do not want to send them by e-mail, send them by messenger.
The Chairman: I have no problem with the documents being sent to all of the members. We would like the steering committee to get involved in the committee's agenda. I suggest, firstly, that we see whether the Francophonie Room can be set up so that we can have interpretation services, and that secondly, we study the nomination of the third member of the steering committee. Thirdly, that we see to the distribution of documents in both official languages with the approval of the steering committee. Those are the suggestions and the items involving official languages. There is no problem with any of that. I really want to work with the steering committee that will be directing the committee's work. If you agree, I am going to follow that action plan. Agreed?
Senator Lapointe: Are we entitled to ask any other questions?
The Chairman: A very short one.
Senator Lapointe: I would like to know who prepared this document. Was it the clerk? Why is there an asterisk? It mentions that Lapointe also sits on the Joint Committee of the Library of Parliament which meets only rarely. Why this asterisk?
The Clerk: Because I could not include in the table the fact that that committee does not have regularly scheduled meetings.
The Chairman: The committee holds meetings as needed.
Senator Comeau: The steering committee could also study the possibility of inviting the Commissioner of Official Languages to all of our meetings.
Senator Gauthier: What an excellent suggestion. In the past, after the meeting in the presence of the deputy minister or other person responsible, the commissioner was invited to share his or her point of view on the testimony heard by the committee. The deputy ministers and witnesses were very honest because they knew that the commissioner was present.
The committee adjourned.