Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Finance
Issue 1 - Evidence, February 10, 2004
OTTAWA, Tuesday, February 10, 2004
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 9:32 a.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Ms. Line Gravel, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, as clerk of your committee, I will now preside over the election of the chair of the committee.
Senator Day: I nominate Senator Murray for chair of the committee.
Senator Oliver: I second the nomination.
Ms. Gravel: Are there other nominations? No. Honourable senators elect Senator Murray to chair this committee.
Senator Lowell Murray (Chairman) in the chair.
The Chairman: Thank you, senators; I greatly appreciate your renewed confidence. It is a great honour and a pleasure to preside over this committee. It was, as I think I have told you before, the first committee I joined when I became a senator 25 years ago next fall, along with Senator Doody. I served under Senator Doug Everett. Then, as now, this committee made a true contribution through public policy studies. One thing that makes the committee so interesting is its overview of a full range of government activity.
[Translation]
I want to thank our new clerk, Ms. Gravel, for presiding over the election and to welcome her to our committee. She comes to us with an impressive record of 16 years in the employ of Parliament. I also want to take this opportunity to express my deep appreciation to our former clerk, Mr. Tõnu Onu, who was a loyal and efficient member of our staff for many years.
[English]
If there are greater things than being clerk of this committee, then Mr. Tõnu Onu has gone on to greater things; and I wish him well.
There are familiar faces at the table today. I must note also that Senator Furey will be back with us, which is good. Senator Furey was also Chairman of the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee, which has quite an overview of governmental activity. He will make an important contribution to this committee. Senator Percy Downe will join us for the first time. Senator Downe has vast experience in public affairs at the provincial and federal levels and he ``knows where the bodies are buried,'' so he should make an excellent member of this committee.
The first order of business is the nominations for the position of deputy chair of the committee.
[Translation]
Senator Ringuette: I nominate Senator Day for the position of Deputy Chair of our committee.
[English]
The Chairman: Senator Day's nomination has been moved for deputy chair of the committee. Are there other nominations? No. I declare Senator Day deputy chairman of the committee. I wish to congratulate him and I thank him for stepping into the breach when I was absent from the Senate for personal reasons several months last fall. Thank you, Senator Day.
The chair will entertain a motion that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair and one other member of the committee to be designated after the usual consultation; and that the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda to invite witnesses and to schedule hearings.
Thank you, Senator Doody. Is it the pleasure of honourable senators to adopt the said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[Translation]
The chair will entertain a motion:
That the committee print its proceedings and that the Chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand.
Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Carried.
[English]
The Chairman: The chair will entertain a motion that, pursuant to rule 89, the chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition be present.
Senator Comeau: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it the pleasure of honourable senators to adopt the said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[Translation]
The chair will entertain a motion:
That the committee adopt the draft first report, prepared in accordance with rule 104.
[English]
Before you, honourable senators, is a copy of our first report. The committee spent the colossal sum of $5,913 during the Second Session of the Thirty-seventh Parliament. We are setting a luminous example of frugality.
We also gild the lily a bit by talking about our 32 meetings, 87 witnesses, nine reports and our estimates, et cetera, just to show them that they are getting their money's worth from this committee. Do honourable senators adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The chair will entertain a motion to ask the Library of Parliament to assign research staff to the committee; that the chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such council and technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject matters of bills and estimates referred to it; that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and that the chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
Senator Day: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it the pleasure of honourable senators to adopt the said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[Translation]
The chair will entertain a motion
That pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and the Clerk of the Committee.
Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt said motion?
Carried.
[English]
The chair will entertain a motion that the committee empower the subcommittee on agenda and procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
Senator Oliver: Agreed.
The Chairman: Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
[Translation]
The chair will entertain a motion that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
1) determine whether any member of the committee is on ``official business'' for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
2) consider any member of the committee to be on ``official business'' if that member is: (a) attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of the committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee.
Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt said motion?
Carried.
[English]
The chair will entertain a motion that, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travel and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application but the chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
Senator Furey: So moved.
The Chairman: Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
[Translation]
The chair will entertain a motion
That the chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings; and that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
Senator Gauthier: You say: ``authorized to seek permission.'' Why not simply say under the circumstances: ``That the committee request permission from the Senate to permit coverage at its discretion''? Must the committee seek permission every single time?
The Chairman: No, just once is sufficient.
Senator Gauthier: Only once then.
Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt said motion?
Carried.
[English]
The Chairman: Let me take 60 seconds of your time, colleagues, to give you a heads-up on what I see coming. There is now before the Senate a private member's bill, Bill C-212, regarding user fees. That bill is to make its reappearance it was here last fall and was at this committee last fall.
[Translation]
Senator Ringuette reopened this debate last Thursday. Senator Kinsella was the one who moved the adjournment. I do not know what the opposition's intentions are, or those of the government for that matter.
[English]
However, if that bill should be referred to us in the course of this present week, against that possibility I ask you to pencil in your agenda a meeting for next Tuesday morning at 9:30. If that bill comes to us, I will convene the committee next Tuesday morning at 9:30 and, if necessary, Wednesday. I will consult with Senator Day, especially, and Senator Ringuette and others, about witnesses. If that bill comes to us this week, we should try to deal with it expeditiously because it is a private member's bill and there is a lot of government business, which takes precedence coming afterwards. Pencil in next Tuesday.
Senator Oliver: We received a letter from the sponsor of the bill complaining that we did not hear certain witnesses from last time. Are you going to dig out that letter and look at the proposed witnesses that were suggested?
The Chairman: Certainly.
Senator Ringuette: It is my understanding that the new minister responsible for Treasury Board, Minister Alcock, would like to appear before our committee.
The Chairman: We want to have him anyway.
Senator Ringuette: If the bill is referred to us this week and we can entertain a meeting next Tuesday on this issue, would it be possible to have the minister next Tuesday?
The Chairman: I will convene a meeting of the steering committee, perhaps right after this meeting. I will speak to Senator Day about that and we will decide what we will do about that.
Senator Gauthier: I want to speak on our report.
The Chairman: What report?
[Translation]
The Chairman: We have already finished with the report.
Senator Gauthier: I understand.
The Chairman: You will have an opportunity to comment when I present it to the Senate. Is there a problem?
Senator Gauthier: Not really, only that I find the wording somewhat ambiguous. To say that we held 29 meetings and tabled nine reports during the session is not quite accurate. Which session would that be?
The Chairman: Senator Gauthier, in the first paragraph, there is a reference to the Second Session of the Thirty- seventh Parliament.
[English]
Senator Day: What steps do we have to go through to bring back the evidence we heard on Bill C-212 last time?
The Chairman: It would have to be done by whoever makes the motion to refer the bill to the committee. Someone should bear that in mind.
Senator Day: Someone should bear it in mind.
The Chairman: Let me mention also the successor bill to the old Bill C-54. That is the extension of the present equalization program for another 12 months. That is coming up. I do not know if it was tabled yesterday in the House of Commons, but it will turn up fast.
We made a report with a number of recommendations and at least one of our recommendations was accepted by the previous Chrétien government — that is, removing the cap on equalization. We will hear from a minister or someone on behalf of the government, for example a parliamentary secretary. The question is whether you want to hear from provincial governments at this time — not so much about the extension; not much can be done about that — about the future new equalization program that is now being negotiated. We had a pretty good run at that with our report. Think about it.
So that you know what we are talking about, on February 19, in the House of Commons, Supplementary Estimates B will be tabled and shortly thereafter we will have to have the officials from Treasury Board in to discuss those and to make a report. On February 24, the Main Estimates for the fiscal year 2004-05 will be tabled. We will want to open our study of that with officials — perhaps with Mr. Alcock, Treasury Board president. A supply bill will then be tabled on March 11 in the House of Commons. In the weeks immediately following that, the Senate will deal with the supply bill. In addition to that, the Auditor General is reporting today and in due course, we would want to have her before the committee.
We will have a fairly full agenda, tentatively, before us over the next couple of months.
Senator Day: Will we do anything on budget implementation?
The Chairman: That is a possibility, too — more than a possibility. It depends on how quickly they can get that stuff through the House of Commons. For must of it, it is not strictly necessary to get it done before an election. A lot of these things are tax measures that are retroactive. The custom is to legislate at leisure after the announcements have been made in the budget.
Senator Oliver: A year later.
The Chairman: I do not feel at the moment under great pressure for budget implementation.
If there is no further business, I will adjourn the committee to the call of the chair. Thank you very much, colleagues.
The committee adjourned.