THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON INTERNAL ECONOMY, BUDGETS AND ADMINISTRATION
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, February 16, 2017
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration met this day at 9 a.m., in public, pursuant to rule 12-7(1), for the consideration of financial and administrative matters; and, in camera, pursuant to rule 12-7(1), for the consideration of financial and administrative matters.
Senator Jane Cordy (Deputy Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: First on the agenda is the adoption of minutes of the proceedings of the February 9 meeting. Could I have a mover? Thank you, Senator Marshall.
The next item on the agenda is the presentation by the Joint Interparliamentary Council, JIC. Who will begin?
Hon. Leo Housakos, Senate Co-Chair, Joint Interparliamentary Council: It's the well-dressed gentleman.
The Deputy Chair: Go ahead.
Bruce Stanton, M.P., Co-Chair, Joint Interparliamentary Council: Thank you, chair. I'm only dressed this way because immediately after this, I'm on duty in the house.
The Deputy Chair: I thought it was because you were coming to see us.
Mr. Stanton: That, too.
Good morning, and thank you so much for hearing this ask for an international conference for the interparliamentary association known as ParlAmericas. As you know, ParlAmericas is essentially one of our 12 inter-parliamentary associations with responsibility and jurisdiction for the Americas, as the name suggests — 32 different member countries. It is very much in step with Canada's relations throughout the OAS.
ParlAmericas considered hosting an international conference in Canada in March 2016. At its November meeting, the executive committee agreed and adopted a motion to seek approval to host in 2018 the Fifteenth Plenary Assembly of ParlAmericas in Canada, with the host city being Victoria, British Columbia.
ParlAmericas convened international conferences in Canada in 2001 and 2009. Both of those conferences were held in Ottawa. The focus of the 2018 plenary will be on indigenous rights and inclusive societies. That was one of the underlining reasons for hosting the conference in Victoria, particularly with the experience that British Columbia's indigenous communities bring to that topic.
As a point of information, the Joint Interparliamentary Council did approve the conference. JIC's role in this isn't really to approve funding; that is left with the two boards, yours and the House of Commons board. JIC wants to be sure that the demand on resources for supporting these international conferences is appropriate. For example, in the next year, there are three different conferences already planned, including a conference late this year of the Inter-Parliamentary Union for young parliamentarians in Ottawa. There is a Commonwealth Parliamentary Association regional conference in Ottawa in 2018. There is a very large NATO conference in Halifax in 2018. That's what the horizon looks like in terms of international conferences.
Our International and Interparliamentary Affairs directorate supports these international conferences, so JIC has to make sure there aren't too many of these impacting the resources that are available to make sure the logistics and support are in place.
JIC has approved that portion of it, but as is the case for all international conferences, the funding comes separately from the two boards.
For that reason, we're requesting a total of $490,000 across two years. It's $25,000 for the next fiscal year, 2017-18. The largest amount, of course, is in the year the conference occurs, which would bring the total to $490,210. On page 2 of your brief, you'll see the breakdown there. In the usual convention, 30 per cent of the cost is shared by the Senate and 70 per cent by the House of Commons.
That's the overview of the request. Senator Housakos, is there anything else?
Senator Housakos: I remind colleagues that we had already given approval for the conferences; there was a list of conferences we had approved. As per the request of Internal Economy, we're bringing you the breakdown of the numbers for your perusal.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you. So we have already approved the holding of the session at an earlier meeting of Internal, so what we're looking at right now is funding the Senate portion of the $490,000 and the $25,000, and the numbers are on the document that you have been given.
Let's start questions.
Senator Jaffer: Just so everybody knows, I'm on the executive of ParlAmericas, so perhaps I have an interest. I want to share with you that when I have participated in ParlAmericas, I have been struck by what an important role Canada plays at the conferences it's led, especially the women's conferences. Foreign Affairs gives us a substantial sum of money. I would like to share with you that if there is one place where parliamentarians can have a real influence, it's through ParlAmericas. To have them come to my province, of course, is an added benefit.
But I truly believe this is one place — if we want to increase our working relationships, it's in South America. We do have quite a lot of influence in ParlAmericas. I would ask you to consider this.
Senator Marshall: Thank you for the presentation. The briefing note was very informative.
Do delegates pay for their own hotel and their own meals? Is there a registration fee?
Mr. Stanton: On the question of hotel rooms, my understanding is that yes, they do. What is funded from our end are some of the meals and receptions, and one cultural event. But all the delegates pay for their costs of transportation and for their hotel accommodations.
As to a registration fee, I'll ask Colette.
Colette Labrecque-Riel, Clerk Assistant and Director General, International and Interparliamentary Affairs Directorate: As for all multilateral associations, registration fees are set by the international headquarters. In this particular case, there are registration fees as well.
I also want to add, in terms of the meals, the parameters by which the budget was prepared are set by the headquarters of ParlAmericas, just as it was done for IPU and CPA. So the parameters are quite in line with all the conferences that Canada has hosted in the recent past, whereby the delegates pay for their own travel and hotels, and some of the meals. The reason I say "some of the meals" is because in the parameters or protocols for hosting these types of conferences, there are expectations on the host country to supply some of the meals and some of the receptions. Those are the costs included.
But absolutely, they are along the very same parameters as we have prepared for all of the past conferences.
Senator Marshall: I'm supportive of the conference. I thought that the numbers were a little high because it said there were 125 delegates. You look at the total of the $490,000, that works out to $4,000 per delegate. So it seemed a bit expensive to me. Even if we look at the logistics — facilities, transportation, staff and accommodations — that works out to $2,500 per delegate. You're saying that those cost are also in line?
Ms. Labrecque-Riel: Some of the particulars about this conference, being ParlAmericas, we are responsible for providing interpretation. It's not just two languages; it's at least four, in this particular case. We have to assume the travel of all of those interpreters to Victoria. A lot of the costs for travel are for staff because my team actually has to go to Victoria and support the conference. We've actually tried to keep those costs down in agreeing with the international secretariat — and they are here in Ottawa — that they will be providing a lot of the assistance on the ground in Victoria, relieving some of the pressure on our staff.
Senator Marshall: Thank you very much for those explanations, and thank you for the excellent briefing note.
Senator Batters: Just as I have asked on previous occasions when we have had JIC funding requests for different conferences and that sort of thing, there is a total indicated for the category protocol/ceremonial/hospitality. Since that sort of expense is something that we now, as senators, individually break down very transparently, I would like an indication as to what the breakdown is for that. I heard you mention something about meals and a cultural event. If you could provide us with that, please. Thank you.
Mr. Stanton: Thank you, Senator Batters. The total for all of the hospitality would be for board of directors lunch, skills workshop lunch, refreshments, health breaks, a welcome dinner reception for all of the delegates, another lunch and dinner reception. As Colette said, not all of the meals over the span of the conference, but a number of them. The total cost for all hospitality is about $66,000 out of the total cost. The per-delegate cost would be consistent with what would be required if, for example, the conference was held in Ottawa or any other major city, but, essentially, that's the component out of the $490,000 that would be for the meals and other receptions.
[Translation]
Senator Dupuis: Thank you for these presentation notes, which are very clear. If I understand correctly, the costs indicated in the document are for Senate employees. However, there is no information about the number of senators who will attend the conference, nor on costs related to that.
Mr. Stanton: I believe I understand the question. If several senators and MPs attend the conference, the costs fall under the heading of the general costs for the association. The costs for the participation of Canadian delegates are not broken down in this document.
Senator Dupuis: Thank you.
[English]
Senator Marwah: Would you have any averages that one can compare this to? I am assuming you have done this many times before in terms of other conferences. How much per delegate does this compare, at a macro level, to other conferences you have done?
Ms. Labrecque-Riel: It's very difficult to do a per-delegate average. There are so many variables. As I mentioned earlier, because we are dealing with four different languages, the interpretation cost is significantly higher because we have to factor in 28 interpreters as opposed to when it is only two languages and the numbers are significantly reduced. It depends if it's in Ottawa or if it's somewhere else in Canada, and it also depends on the number of delegates themselves because, while the cost of the Canadian delegation isn't covered, obviously, the number of international delegates has an impact in terms of the number of meals and the reception, and even the meeting venues that we have.
In the fall, we did go over budget submissions for three separate conferences, as Mr. Stanton mentioned, and the budgets are very different because those variables — I do have them here with me — make quite a difference. To give an average per-delegate cost isn't reflective of the context of that particular conference. What we do always use when we cost out meals, for instance, or transportation costs, is the Treasury Board Secretariat guidelines for every single conference. So we do have standard amounts that we apply to each conference costing.
Senator Marwah: I fully understand that comparative is very difficult, but, if the number is 5 per cent higher because of the extra translation, one can understand that. If the number is 200 per cent higher, that's not normal. So I still would like some understanding of averages because you do get a broad sense. I think we fully understand that differences always occur for every conference, whether it's Ottawa, Victoria, the number of translators and so on. But, by having a broad look at the numbers, you still can rationalize those differences. I just don't know whether we are double the average, 5 per cent higher, 50 per cent higher. You can gauge, by the broad numbers, whether or not it's reasonable.
Mr. Stanton: I could add just one aspect of that without looking at the other factors. Right out of the gate, there is an additional $134,000 in the cost of this conference, purely from the cost of air travel and hotel accommodations for the staff. For example, if the conference was being held in Ottawa, you could drop that $134,000 right out of the equation because the staff of IIA, the interpreters and others are situated in the nation's capital. So there is no doubt that having a conference in one other city in Canada does increase the cost. We have seen international conferences in Ottawa that would cost in the range of $290,000 to $320,000 for a conference of a similar span. As soon as you take that out of the nation's capital, of course, you've got that additional increment.
Senator Housakos: If I may also add, because I know Senator Marwah is the numbers guy: From my brief experience on JIC, I can say, with a great degree of certainty, that, as soon as you take a conference like this out of Ottawa and take it to any region of the country, be it to British Columbia or Nova Scotia, you're adding a minimum of 25 per cent, 30 per cent additional cost to the overall budget.
Senator Marwah: So then it should be 25 per cent higher, so is it 25 per cent higher then?
Senator Housakos: I don't know if Colette has a comparison. I would say that my experience has been 25 per cent to 30 per cent. I don't know if that's bang on or not.
Senator Marwah: We don't need to resolve that right now, but I would really like some understanding of it. Also, we must have done past conferences outside of Ottawa, too. This can't be the first conference we have done outside of Ottawa. So how does it compare to other conferences you've done outside of Ottawa?
Mr. Stanton: I'll just give you an indication here, again, sometimes these conferences range in dates and so on. I'm sorry we don't have the sort of per-delegate, per-day cost to give a comparison. But, for example, NATO, that will meet in Halifax in 2018 is $1.48 million. I should say, by the way, that NATO is a large delegation, 850 delegates.
CPA will be here with about 150 delegates in Ottawa in 2018. That's going to cost about $311,000. The IPU will be here later this year at a cost of $470,000. That's for about 300 delegates. So you can see there some general comparison, but it fluctuates based on the number of delegates and the span of the conference typically.
Senator Marwah: I really would appreciate a comparison because it would help me to understand. Going through it line by line like this, it's very hard to really comprehend what these numbers are. When you look at averages, they do tend to help. You can rationalize; you can explain the differences. If it's 20 per cent higher, I'll take your word for it, but I would like to know that this is 20 per cent higher and not 50. I have no idea.
Senator Housakos: Again, just to reiterate my colleague's point of view. Conference to conference, it ranges in terms of the number of people, in terms of the work that is going done, the nature of the work, the nature of the meetings, the number of languages required. Translation particularly has a huge impact. So you are having a conference with two languages in British Columbia and having a conference with four languages. The comparisons range also in the number of participants. It's a worthwhile exercise for JIC to go through and to provide, maybe, a template for this committee, going forward, of a number of examples. This was just a small sample that Mr. Stanton brought forward. But we can do that exercise for the benefit of this committee and report back in the future, a series of conferences and what the numbers are.
Senator Marwah: Sure.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you. Senator Downe?
Senator Downe: Thank you. I think it's important that these conferences, as many as possible, even though there is additional cost, be held outside of Ottawa. It's very easy to have them here. We have the infrastructure. We have the translators. We have the staff. But it's important not only for the delegates to see different parts of Canada, it's important for those communities that host these conferences, like NATO, which has a long military history in Halifax, and others. These will be big events in these communities and they will show what parliamentarians are doing to advance Canadian international issues.
I know some people object to the additional cost, but I'm strongly supportive of as many of these as possible being outside of Ottawa.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you. I don't think that needs an answer, unless anybody wants to comment. Senator Lankin?
Senator Lankin: Thank you, chair. Just following on Senator Marwah's request, I understand what he is getting at. I also understand it may be difficult to provide the kind of information that would help us in the future to judge these in the format that he was asking about.
I think the reference to Treasury Board guidelines is important. Maybe that's something — and again, I'm talking about in the future — that we can look at; what parts of the conferences that covers. For example, I certainly know that it covers a lot of things around per diem, hotel or travel. I don't know if it covers levels of hospitality that are appropriate for different types of groups. There may be other categories. That could be a helpful way to look at it as well.
I understand what Senator Marwah is trying to get at. It may be that you could look at it and figure out what the best format of information would be to provide us, so that we have a sense, at some point and time, whether one of these association meetings coming forward is putting forward a request that is outside the norm. How would we judge if it lies outside the norm? I think that's what we would like to know.
Senator Tkachuk: We have had this question that was raised previously about the cost per delegate before. What you might want to do, because I think it would be easy, is to take the travel and translation out of the equation and give the average of a balance. I think that might help us satisfy our questions. I know Senator Marshall is always on that, and we always get the same answer. But I think if you take the variables out, then we would have a good idea of what it is costing, per delegate.
Senator Marshall: I want to add that we have the subcommittee on budgets for committee travel and they provide a fairly detailed breakdown with regard to travel and other types of expenses. Maybe that's something we should look at; we would get more information if we used that template.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you. We have given you some homework. Perhaps you can come back and give us that kind of information.
Senator Dupuis? Sorry, I didn’t see your hand.
[Translation]
Senator Dupuis: I have a general question that came to mind following this discussion concerning the choice of Canadian locations for these conferences.
What are the determining factors in choosing the provinces? I understand very well that holding these conferences is important, and it is also important to interest the Canadian population in these issues so that they can see that we are active in this area. I just wondered how the locations are chosen.
Mr. Stanton: The location was proposed by the ParlAmericas network, as it was their preferred location. However, the question you ask is important. What factors determine the choice of location?
In this case, one of the determining factors was the abundance of indigenous culture present in British Columbia. The ParlAmericas executive committee concluded that British Columbia, as a location that is rich in history, would be a good backdrop for the delegates’ discussion of these topics.
Senator Housakos: I would also like to add that each association and its executive is free to decide. Every parliamentarian who sits on the executive of an association has his or her word to say, and that is often how locations are chosen. Moreover, all parliamentarians want to attract all conferences to their neck of the woods, which is normal.
Senator Dupuis: That answers my question very well. I understand that the city of Sept-Îles, northeast of Quebec, cannot compete with Victoria. Clearly, international associations will not choose Sept-Îles, but since the Senate pays for part of the costs of these conferences, which I agree with, does it have a say?
You all want to go to Victoria and I have nothing against Victoria, please understand that. However, indigenous culture is present everywhere, and there is also a lot of it in northern Quebec. Of course, Kuujjuaq could not easily host all international conferences, but I just wondered whether the Senate had something to say in the choice of location.
Senator Housakos: Yes, 100 per cent.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much. I think you have gotten some excellent questions today on the whole broad issue of Canada hosting conferences. Perhaps you can come back to the committee sometime, not with a specific request, but just to address some of the issues that were raised today.
Getting back to the recommendations that are in your documents that we got beforehand, that approval be granted to host the Fifteenth Plenary Assembly of ParlAmericas at Victoria, Canada, from September 9 to 12 —
Senator Tkachuk: I so move.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you. All in favour? Thank you, approved. Sorry? And funding? The funding part, Senator Tkachuk, is included in that? Thank you. Approved?
We're on a roll. Let's keep going.
The next item is a continuation for JIC. That is dealing with a request for additional office space. Bruce, are you going to start?
Mr. Stanton: Well, this is good news. The board may recall that there had been a request to re-situate offices for the secretariat of ParlAmericas, which is hosted here in Canada. One of the distinctions, frankly, of all our associations, is ParlAmericas is the only one who hosts a secretariat here at home.
Because of the limited space that they had been currently using, they had requested to see if there was a means by which they could expand office space here, within the realm of the parliamentary precinct.
Indeed, at the time it was unclear what the cost might be to do that and this committee undertook to get back to your board about those costs. In fact, what has occurred is that the Public Works Canada has found some space in the National Press Building, at 150 Wellington, that will essentially have little need for additional funding. There won't really be any demand for additional resources or funds. ParlAmericas itself will fund $9,000 of the roughly $15,000 cost of making the move to the National Press Building, and internal resources will pick up the other $6,000.
The one potential point in this is that, as part of the long-term plan for the precinct, the National Press Building is slated for renovation and changes sometime in the next few years. When that occurs, ParlAmericas, as a tenant, would presumably be re-situated to a place unknown. That would occur presumably under the umbrella of the cost of taking out all of the occupants of 150 Wellington at that time. But at the moment, there is no additional cost, and we're pleased to see ParlAmericas with the space they need to do their important work.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Marshall: Thank you very much for the presentation.
The briefing note, under financial implications, says ParlAmericas is prepared to fund $9,000. I was wondering, why can't they fund it all? Why don't they fund it all?
Ms. Labrecque-Riel: The breakdown is for the total of $15,000, and about $9,000 of it was requests that the secretariat itself made and I didn't bring with me, but it's actually a list of things, such as they wanted to buy a new microwave, a new fridge for their kitchen. They wanted a coffee maker. It's those kinds of expenditures supported by the occupant in any case.
The remaining $6,000 is being absorbed by the House of Commons facilities management group because, for example, we have to change the lock on a door because the total office space will span two floors. For them to easily access, we have to change the lock on one of the doors. Its infrastructure cost for about $6,000 that, because you're into contract work, is borne by the House of Commons facilities management group.
Senator Marshall: Does the Senate pick up 30 per cent?
Ms. Labrecque-Riel: No.
Senator Marshall: This is all someone else.
Ms. Labrecque-Riel: It's zero for the Senate.
Senator Marshall: No complaints.
The Deputy Chair: No complaints, Senator Marshall? You love it. We love briefing notes like this. Thank you very much.
Senator Munson: While we have you here, this is not for today, but perhaps it would be helpful for all of us on Internal Economy — since I have sat on the Joint Interparliamentary Council for a couple of years — to give us a breakdown of how JIC is now putting together those who travel on parliamentary associations.
For example, Senate Liberals are being now squeezed to a certain extent because of the new independent group. I know associations have different criteria on how this works when there are six, five, four, three. I think it would be nice to have this on paper to understand how each association sets out its parameters of travel arrangements because sometimes there are large delegations and sometimes there are small delegations. How is that based?
When there are small delegations, those of us who represent a caucus in the Senate are being moved to the side a little bit. I think it would be good for all of us to have this information for Internal Economy and for the Senate itself.
Senator Jaffer: Before you speak, can I add something? As steering of Internal knows, I have been coming to you for a number of months to say that we need to decide how we are going to participate in international delegations. My concern, Mr. Stanton, is that — and I have spoken to Colette and to my chair — for example, ParlAmericas is now deciding how we are to proceed. I don't think that's ParlAmericas job.
I believe a time has come when we here, and also with JIC, have to decide how we are going to participate, because we are coming to a stage when it's becoming arbitrary. At least from a Liberal point of view, I feel it's becoming arbitrary. I'm not asking for an answer now. I believe that we should have a fair policy. Then we know that this decision has been made around this policy. I would be able to live with a policy, but for example, ParlAmericas decided who is going on the delegation and has thrown us out. I don't think that's the appropriate way to do it.
I have spoken to Senator Housakos about this, and I don’t necessarily want an answer today. But I think we should have a proper policy.
Senator Housakos: I'll try to address it a little bit, by expressing my personal point of view on this. I agree with Senator Jaffer. But Senator Munson, I think you have to look at it from the reverse side of the equation here. I don't think it's up to JIC to be setting guidelines for associations, who they send and how they send them. There has been willingness, from what I observed, from most associations to accommodate the new reality. I saw it recently at the IPU general assembly. I saw it at the U.S.-Canada general assembly. Some associations are more proactive than others on this. But I think it's for this body, I think it's for this committee here to set the parameters for JIC.
At the end of the day, we are the ones that approved the funding and we're the ones that give guidance to JIC and we have our own members, of course from here that are representatives there. So I think these decisions have to be ironed out here and brought to JIC from here.
Senator Munson: I agree with you. It's always about the money. Over the years, the money has been squeezed and squeezed for the amount of money that JIC can spend and approve, and parliamentary delegations. The reality is that there are 30 new MPs, and the reality is the Senate is now full. And I think that reality has to be taken into consideration for us as well, and for JIC, in terms of looking at the global budget that JIC has to work with for all parliamentary associations.
We have lived under a shell for a long time of saying, how do we get it down to two cents as opposed to five cents. So I think that the new reality does show that international delegations and interventions do work. It is very important that all parliamentarians have, in terms of percentages, equal access to these international visits.
Senator Housakos: So Senator Munson, may I suggest that we put this item on the agenda for discussion here, before this committee, in the near future. I have had discussions about this with Senator Mitchell. I have had discussions about this with individuals, senators from all parties, trying to find an equitable way to go forward with this. With the committee's indulgence, let's put it on the agenda and have a wholesome discussion on it.
Senator McCoy: As a point of information, not entirely on the point that Senator Munson has raised, although personally I'm very much in favour of international parliamentary diplomacy, especially in this day and age when I think Canada is a beacon to the world.
Leaving that aside, I wanted to mention that Senator Gagné and myself had asked with Senator Downe, Senator Plett and Senator Mitchell to begin to explore how we might develop a collaborative arrangement that would facilitate participation in missions by all senators. I'm pleased to continue with that initiative, although Senator Downe said to me, if you're going to take it on, then that might be better, Senator Housakos. If that's going to be case, then I would be happy to convene or at least join that conversation with you.
Senator Housakos: I think what I said is for us to take it on.
Senator Downe: Senator Housakos made a good suggestion that the committee consider collectively. We can continue any discussions if there is any sense of where we want to go. We could bring that to the committee discussion. I think a discussion, a decision and a recommendation from this committee to JIC is what is required so they have some guidelines of the will of the Senate.
Mr. Stanton: Thank you, first of all, for these additional comments. I think it's very helpful and timely. The subcommittee will be reporting on our five-year review to JIC by April 1, I believe, which is the date that we have set. It is taken up with this very issue that you have just discussed.
I'm not really saying anything out of line here by suggesting that one of the key parameters around activity travel comes down to the degree of accountability in each chamber through the whips of the parties. This is something that has been underlined so something that the new landscape in the Senate might wish to take up is the role of the whips in participating in that accountability part. That is to say, all of the participants that go on international trips are accountable to the head of mission, and to the objective of the visit itself. If the whips are not in the equation, it's difficult to make sure that the participation and the opportunities for senators are given in a way that is fair and equitable.
Senator Jaffer: I had brought this up to Senator Housakos, to steering, and to Colette's attention, but I want you to understand where I'm coming from with a particular example. Not picking on anybody, but I attended the ParlAmericas executive, and it is alleged that a decision was made at the executive, and maybe I was deaf. I didn't hear.
Afterwards, the decision was made that one independent and one Conservative would go. I'm not against that, but I don't want a particular association to decide. I wanted the decision to be made here and everyone to know. It wasn't that I wanted to go on that trip. That's not the issue. It was just an arbitrary decision. So when I asked, he said, "Once it will be you and once it will be an independent."
I don't want a chair to decide that. I think that decision should be made here by the Senate. That's my issue. If somebody likes someone and says, "Okay, we'll send in someone," that's not the particular association's decision to make. That decision should be made here. That's my issue.
Senator McCoy: I want to thank the secretariat of JIC, because they have been inordinately kind and graceful in the way they have been sharing information with us. Many of our senators, as you know, are new, and haven't had any prior experience, but they were delighted to get the offer to join. Some have put their names forward on the executive.
We are being kept in the loop on travel and so forth, to ensure that not all senators are out and about in the world and we have few left for a quorum at home, et cetera.
So all of that is working very well, and for that I credit the secretariat and their reaching out to us to make sure that the function continues smoothly and that opportunities are available to all senators.
The Deputy Chair: I also would like to thank the JIC representatives here today. I think it was an excellent dialogue and excellent questions. Some were not quite on the topic, but I think nonetheless very important issues that have been raised this morning. I thank you very much.
Senator Housakos has said, as chair, that we will revisit this discussion that we have just had at a later Internal Economy meeting. So thank you very much for your attendance.
The next portion of our meeting is in camera, so we will pause while we change to an in-camera meeting and we change chairs.
(The committee continued in camera.)