Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 17 - Evidence - Meeting of March 18, 2013
OTTAWA, Monday, March 18, 2013
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 4:33 p.m. to continue its study on CBC/ Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act.
Senator Maria Chaput (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Honourable senators, I would like to welcome you to this meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. I am Senator Maria Chaput, from Manitoba, the chair of the committee.
Before introducing the witnesses who are appearing today, I would like the members of the committee to introduce themselves.
Senator Poirier: Senator Rose-May Poirier, from New Brunswick. Welcome.
Senator Mockler: Senator Percy Mockler, from New Brunswick.
Senator Robichaud: Senator Fernand Robichaud, from Saint-Louis-de-Kent, New Brunswick.
Senator Tardif: Senator Claudette Tardif, from western Canada, from Alberta.
The Chair: The committee is continuing its study on CBC/Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act.
The committee has heard more than 30 witnesses as part of this study thus far. That includes representatives of CBC/Radio-Canada, the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, the Commissioner of Official Languages, the Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages, researchers and anglophone and francophone organizations.
Several witnesses have pointed out that young people, who represent the future, must be central to CBC/Radio- Canada's strategies. The committee has therefore taken the initiative of inviting representatives from the youth sector to testify before it so that we can learn how young Canadians perceive the topic of CBC/Radio-Canada's linguistic obligations.
It is therefore a great pleasure today to welcome Mr. Sébastien Lord, Chair of the Fédération des jeunes francophones du Nouveau-Brunswick, and Mr. Gabriel Tougas, Delegate of the Conseil jeunesse provincial du Manitoba and Chair of the Parlement jeunesse pancanadien.
On behalf of the members of the committee, I would like to thank the witnesses for taking the time to present their viewpoint as part of our study and to answer our questions.
The committee has asked the witnesses to make a presentation of approximately 10 minutes each and senators will follow with questions.
I therefore invite Mr. Lord to take the floor and Mr. Tougas will follow.
Sébastien Lord, Chair, Fédération des jeunes francophones du Nouveau-Brunswick: Madam Chair, senators, I would like to begin by thanking you for inviting us to appear before you today on the subject of Radio-Canada, its linguistic obligations and its commitment to youth.
As Chair of the Fédération des jeunes francophones du Nouveau-Brunswick, I sincerely believe that young people in my province and across the country have relevant opinions about our society and ideas that can contribute to public debate. It is initiatives such as yours here that will enable the next generation to thrive in the public sphere.
When I was preparing for this panel, a number of issues were suggested to me as ideas for my speech. I would like to talk about some of those ideas.
The first question that I and the young people I represent would like to answer is: what does Radio-Canada represent? The answer is quite simple but has major consequences. Radio-Canada represents an opportunity for an ongoing sharing of information, opinions and culture, for example, among the various communities of our country.
This ongoing sharing, this constantly evolving discourse among our fellow citizens, is necessary for us to progress as a society. Without this exchange, we would face political and cultural stagnation as a country.
How can we face our economic challenges if we do not know what is going on in the various sectors on this and the other side of the country? How can we call for constant innovation by our artists if they have to develop in a cultural void? That is impossible. A better flow of information enhances everyone's capabilities by keeping us better informed about the community in which we live.
This is all the truer and more important for Canada's francophone community, whose members often find themselves isolated in small communities, far from their linguistic peers. As the national broadcaster, CBC/Radio- Canada has the ability to bring those isolated communities closer together and to help instil a greater sense of belonging to the broader Canadian francophone community.
However, beyond instilling a sense of belonging, bringing francophone communities closer together could help us find ways to address our social challenges. Since making my commitment to the francophone community sector, I have noticed that, even though every region is unique, some problems are common to all communities. The first problem that comes to mind is bullying in the schools. However, it is not unusual for some groups of people to find solutions to those problems and to implement them successfully. In many cases, those solutions are transferable, with some changes, from one region to another. Constant and enhanced communication distinctly facilitates that process.
As a 19-year-old, I have grown up with social media, although I have never used those communication tools to their full potential. However, in my past two years as Chair of the Fédération des jeunes francophones du Nouveau- Brunswick, I have seen many awareness campaigns launch, grow and achieve incredible success using social media. I am thinking in particular of our Libérons les couleurs campaign, the purpose of which was to increase general public awareness of sexual identity and diversity by focusing on the problem of homophobia. The positive impact of that initiative has been far from negligible.
If projects of that kind, which emerged in my province, could secure the support of organizations such as CBC/ Radio-Canada, the entire country could benefit. A lot of projects that we are unaware of have no doubt been introduced across the country and could benefit us in our region.
That leads me to the second question that I would like to answer: what are my expectations of CBC/Radio-Canada as a representative of Canadian youth? I believe I have clearly conveyed the spirit of my answer in what I just said, but nevertheless let me to explain. I believe that Radio-Canada and all of us would be better off if some importance were attached to the activities of community organizations, particularly those that have a youth component. Those organizations constantly work to improve social life of their community, and giving them a window where they could exhibit themselves nationally could vastly increase the scope of their projects. An economic aspect to consider here is that this national profile would also increase the return on every dollar invested in those organizations.
This accent on the importance of supporting youth organizations in social media is something that comes from an observation that is obvious to anyone who has ever worked with youth in this sector. The idea that young people are apathetic about their culture or about policies that have an impact on them is a myth that improves no one's situation. What is true, on the other hand, is that young people do not know how to go about getting involved or how to express their opinions. A greater media presence for organizations that offer them those opportunities would make it easier for young people to find a place where they can get involved.
It is important to note the fluid nature of the definition of the word ``media.'' With the advent of the Internet, not only does that term no longer mean the same thing as it did several decades ago, but it is also evolving increasingly quickly in step with the inexorable progress of technology.
Consequently, my morning ritual is not to go and buy a newspaper from the corner store as my grandfather did, but rather to pick up my telephone and access the Internet to bring myself up to date on what has happened in my region, in my country and in my world, even before I leave my bedroom.
Radio-Canada and every other media organization must clearly follow and adjust to the technological changes we experience every day, or else the public and especially the young people who mostly manage to adapt to those changes will find those organizations obsolete and will pay them only brief or superficial attention. Regardless of the content or quality of a story, if it is not in a familiar format or a medium already being used by Canadians, it may well fall on deaf ears.
The last point I would like to make is that, when I read the news, I often wind up on the CBC's website rather than that of Radio-Canada. This is unfortunate, but it is generally easier for me to keep up with what is going on in my province and region by reading Radio-Canada's anglophone counterpart.
Knowing that the vast majority of Canadian francophones live in Quebec, I consider it understandable that a large part of French-language news comes from that province. However, as a Crown corporation, Radio-Canada should nevertheless provide all francophone regions of the country with good service. I am not the only person who thinks that. This is a major topic of discussion in the francophone community network in our country. One of the reactions to this observation that there are deficiencies in Radio-Canada's programming has been an effort to establish another French-language television network called Accent, whose target audience would be francophones outside Quebec.
In conclusion, Radio-Canada is nevertheless a major and essential asset for young people, francophones and the general population of this country. I believe it is always possible to improve anything, and I offer my viewpoint here today in that spirit.
I hope to be able to live in a Canada where Radio-Canada continues and improves its excellent broadcasting service.
Thank you once again for this opportunity to meet with you today.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Lord. Now we will hear from Mr. Tougas.
Gabriel Tougas, Delegate and Chair of the Parlement jeunesse pancanadien, Conseil jeunesse provincial (Manitoba): Thank you, Madam Chair. My name is Gabriel Tougas and I am a professional director of television documentaries and dramatic feature films. I am also a proud Franco-Manitoban from Saint-Boniface, and I am appearing before you as Delegate of the Conseil jeunesse provincial (Manitoba).
I have been working in the television industry for four years as a director for Les Productions Rivard, which is a bilingual independent production company based in Winnipeg, Manitoba. In the past two years, I have also directed the first dramatic feature-length film produced and directed by francophones from western Canada.
I believe that these experiences, in addition to the fact that I have lived my entire life in the Franco-Manitoban community, put me in a good position to offer a youth perspective on CBC/Radio-Canada's linguistic and identity- related obligations.
In the time allotted to me, I want to share with you three observations that I have made in recent years. First, many Franco-Manitoban youth do not listen to or watch Radio-Canada radio or television, but that is not necessarily the broadcaster's fault. I will elaborate on that shortly. Second, Radio-Canada serves the local communities very well with accessible, comprehensive and appropriate news broadcasts. Lastly, potential listeners and viewers, young people in particular, are very much attracted by local programming. My recommendations on this point will follow.
First, based on my fairly broad anecdotal experience with Franco-Manitoban youth, I must admit that many, if not most young people do not watch Radio-Canada television and listen to Radio-Canada radio even less. It is a different story in early childhood because francophone parents often make their children watch Radio-Canada's children's programs. However, young people no longer watch them very much once they reach adolescence. At that age, the average teenager will watch Le Téléjournal only if he knows that one of his friends will be appearing on television that evening. However, I want to point out that I do not believe Radio-Canada can be considered at fault. I will offer you some potential solutions in a moment, but for now I want to point out that young people at that age do not listen to or watch Radio-Canada mainly because they do not listen to radio or watch television at all.
Radio-Canada's regular programming does not fall within their field of interest at that age either. Later on, once they have reached university age, I have seen an impressive increase among those around me in the way they listen to and watch Radio-Canada radio and television. Once again, however, they do so to an enormous degree on Radio- Canada's on-line, or Web, platforms. On the Internet, for example, we listen to live radio, we watch archived episodes of Le Téléjournal Manitoba, and we view a broad variety of programs on TOU.TV. There is very high-quality programming on CBC/Radio-Canada, and those in my circle particularly appreciate television dramas such as 19-2, comedies such as Pérusse Cité, and the essential Tout le monde en parle. However, those productions are almost entirely Québécois in nature, and I will clarify my thinking on that point in a moment.
All that to say that the fact that teenagers do not watch Radio-Canada does not constitute a problem in itself because they will gravitate to its programming as their preferences change, which, however, should not prevent Radio- Canada from trying to target teenagers to a greater degree with fictional series that might be of interest to them. It is important to bear in mind, however, that the vast majority of CBC/Radio-Canada's content on its Web platforms must remain accessible and free of charge in order to retain our generation's interest.
Second, with regard to news, I sincerely believe that Radio-Canada has done an outstanding job of offering minority communities a comprehensive audience-appropriate news broadcast. Before any members of the francophone community take offence at that statement, let me explain. I am talking about the regional broadcast. In Manitoba, we get that on the Téléjournal at 6 p.m., which is rebroadcast at 11 p.m. The Canadian francophone community is obviously annoyed with the content of the national Téléjournal, which clearly focuses on Montreal, and I completely agree with them. Although a viewer watching the national Téléjournal gets the impression that Quebec news is being made to pass for national news, Le Téléjournal Manitoba gives us genuinely national and international news. Then the rest of the hour is spent on stories from Manitoba and what directly concerns the Franco-Manitoban community. For the size of the market it serves in Manitoba and the other western provinces, Radio-Canada's local newsroom does a comprehensive, even impressive job of balancing its stories and giving the audience what it wants, and I thank those journalists for the attention they pay to our province.
Third, I would like to share with you an interesting phenomenon that I observed as I worked on my dramatic feature film Héliosols. As some of you are no doubt aware, a substantial percentage of young francophones feel marginalized by the francophone community and have therefore adopted English as their primary language of communication. Some people in our community often view those young people as lost causes. When I was promoting my film, those same young people, who did not seem interested in anything to do with the French language and most of whom were complete strangers to me, told me they were very interested in seeing my film, which was entirely in French. Many told me they found a film like mine very refreshing because it starred people who thought and spoke like us, not like Quebecers or the French, with whom we do not have the same connection. I was very surprised to learn that those people secretly wanted to see a French-language film that spoke to them.
That is why I ask you to consider original and local programming as a major priority for Radio-Canada. The Manitoban variety show Dureault, which is hosted by Vincent Dureault, has been a big hit with all age groups and provides a very recent example of the potential audience Radio-Canada could have if it decided to invest more funding in local programming. It is high time francophone minority communities had the opportunity to produce something other than news for their local market.
[English]
This concept of regional programming does not only apply to the French language and to francophone communities. When Rick Mercer appeared on George Stroumboulopoulos's The Hour in September 2012, he spoke about one of his favourite television programs, The Wonderful Grand Band, a CBC show produced in Newfoundland between 1980 and 1983. According to him, from his perspective as a young Newfoundlander, the stars of the show were as big if not bigger celebrities than the Hollywood stars of the time, and it had been immensely inspiring for him to idolize people who ``lived down the street.'' We have all witnessed, I believe, the kind of impact Mr. Mercer has had on the Canadian media landscape.
[Translation]
Since that is all the time I have and those are all the points I wanted to make, I thank you very much for inviting us to testify, and I will be pleased to answer your questions.
Senator Tardif: I want to tell you that you are excellent models for francophone youth who come from communities where French is not the language of the majority. Your presentations were intelligent, articulate and highly relevant. Bravo.
I want to go back to the issue of teenagers' interests. You say that teenagers are not in the habit of listening to radio or watching television in English or French. Even though I know the answer to this, I would like to hear it once again. What has replaced radio and television as young people's preferred means of communication?
Mr. Lord: The answer is the Internet. It has become a real presence almost everywhere in our lives. We young people are always connected; we always have a cell phone in our hands or pockets. For us, Facebook, Twitter and MySpace are mechanisms that enable us to stay connected with the world.
We attach importance to our network of friends, then to networks across the country and around the world. If we have access to our friends via our cell phones, we also have access to the rest of the world. Since our lives are in constant motion, it is hard to say that we will sit down to watch regional news on TV for an hour or two. It is much easier to access it through our phones, in written format, regardless of where we are. It is more accessible when we have a free moment, when the bus is late or when we have time between two classes.
Lastly, the Internet is the medium that attracts young people because of its flexibility and availability.
The Chair: Gabriel, did you want to add something?
Mr. Tougas: First I am going to talk about the difference between news and entertainment. I believe that young people's general interest in news is relatively low, but it is far from non-existent. Many young people are interested in the news, and their interest gradually increases as they reach university age.
This is initially a question of demographics and interest. When you get into entertainment — and you find a lot of that content on the Internet — it is much more crucial for teenagers to have local programming. Based on my personal experience, when I watched Quebec or French films at the age of 13 or 14, the actors spoke too quickly for my Franco- Manitoban ears. I did not understand the cultural references and I found it very difficult to put myself in the characters' shoes, which is quite important in enjoying entertainment and fiction.
It is even more important to have local programming targeting young people of that age because, later on in life, we learn to appreciate programs with 100 per cent Quebec content, like the programs I mentioned earlier. So I believe that programming has to be targeted at those teenagers, that it should be done in a regional French and that it should be made available on the Internet.
I know that is a lot to ask, but I think Radio-Canada in fact has those resources if they are allocated to the right places. That will let them access an entirely new audience who will listen to and watch Radio-Canada in future.
Senator Tardif: Gabriel, I believe you raise an excellent point about the importance of regional production because, first of all, people get to see a reflection of themselves in their community, they feel valued, and that is very important, particularly for teenagers who are looking for a sense of belonging, an identity and a culture. Those are very valid points.
I do not know whether Radio-Canada has identified a youth component in its regional strategic plan. I do not believe so, but it has definitely committed to having a regional strategic plan. I believe it would be important to have that youth component, but, when you talk about the importance of the Internet, do you do that in English or in French?
Mr. Tougas: In my case, I watch a large part of my entertainment on TOU.TV. That is a Radio-Canada platform that provides access to programs, not just at better times, but I can also get local access to that programming in Manitoba.
For example, apart from Tout le monde en parle, the series I mentioned are on TOU.TV, and I can get my entertainment on that platform. The idea for me is to have a broad cultural reference because I do all my art in French. All my productions, my television programs and my films are in French. My models and idols are from Quebec and French films, and I can draw inspiration from those films. I think free access to those things is very important, and that promotes media use among young people.
Senator Tardif: Before hearing Sébastien's answer, would you say your answer is typical of a youth of your age?
Mr. Tougas: It is typical of those in my circle.
Senator Tardif: Because you work in a French production environment.
Mr. Tougas: Pardon me, I meant my social circle, in the sense that I am surrounded by people who are like me, but there is a substantial percentage of engaged young francophones in Saint-Boniface who listen to and watch radio and television on Web platforms.
Senator Tardif: In French?
Mr. Tougas: In French, absolutely.
Senator Tardif: In French rather than English?
Mr. Tougas: Yes.
Senator Tardif: I wanted to hear Sébastien's answer. Is that all right, Sébastien?
Mr. Lord: Yes. I cannot say that I watch a lot of that kind of television entertainment. That is not necessarily my field, and I do have other interests, but that is not important. However, I can respond for the young people I represent.
They mainly get their entertainment in English because it is more accessible, advertised and something that is well known. However, the federation I represent has understood the concept of ``by and for young people.'' If young people take part in the development of a project, they will adopt its results as their own. In addition to ``by and for young people,'' we can also have ``by and for people'', ``by and for francophones.''
If we did something like what Mr. Tougas is doing with his film, since young people are suddenly interested in seeing feature films in French, if we could have local fictional productions, entertainment or news, regardless of what they are, people would adopt them. It can be as simple as hiring local people for television productions in order to get them to watch them later on.
Senator Robichaud: Gabriel, you said you were surrounded by people who have the same aspirations as you. What percentage of the young people likely to be interested in you does your group represent? You can answer the question as well, Sébastien.
Mr. Tougas: I would say it is hard to give you an actual percentage, but if I had to come up with an estimate, I would say that one or two in five young people enjoy one type of entertainment or another in French, and I think TOU.TV would be by far the preferred source of entertainment in French.
Senator Robichaud: Sébastien, do you have something to add?
Mr. Lord: I do not know the percentage of young people who enjoy content in French. However, between 90 per cent and 100 per cent of young people who take part in youth activities, who join the network and who realize the cultural importance of fighting for French, will later commit to listening to and watching it. I could tell you the percentage of young people in the overall population who think that way. Young people who start getting involved and are exposed to all these debates will seek out forms of cultural content in French.
Senator Poirier: Thank you for agreeing to come and testify before us. Your presentations are very impressive. It is important that you are here because you young people are the future. We have to listen to what you have to say in order to know where things are headed.
You talked about the fact that, since more things are available in English, young people in your circle tend to turn to social media with English rather than French programs. Where do you think the deficiencies are? Is it in news, cultural programs? What direction should Radio-Canada take to improve the situation?
Mr. Lord: That is a very broad question. What pushes young people to listen to and watch more media in English is determined by more than one cause and by very varied factors. There is the social context, for example. The fact that we are in the minority and that our friends are mainly anglophones tends to make us listen to and watch the same things so that we can have a greater sense of belonging.
What Radio-Canada could do to encourage young people to listen to and watch more in French would be to get them involved in the process. It is not enough to sound them out with passive surveys; get them involved in producing and filming programs. It may seem ambitious or impossible to involve young people in those kinds of processes. However, that is somewhat what we are doing in our federation. We are following Mr. Tougas' example by trying to do our own film production. We see that young people want to take part, to create and to engage in culture. From the moment young people are engaged in a process, they will want to adopt its results.
If Radio-Canada wants to put a youth component in place, that will be an excellent way to ensure those young people grow up with an interest in what they have produced and will continue listening and watching in French once they reach adulthood.
Senator Poirier: You started out in your province a few years ago. New Brunswick is an officially bilingual province. So we may have better understood the importance of French as Acadians.
Even though this does not go back to the era of our parents or grandparents, was access to social media and news broadcasts a challenge for you when you were growing up?
Mr. Tougas: That was definitely not done so much on Radio-Canada, I can tell you that. The opportunities I had when I was young involved, for example, videos that we borrowed from the local library, where everything was done in French. Those video cassettes and films were relatively accessible. We in Manitoba have certain advantages relative to other western provinces because we have a lot of resources at our disposal. However, not all the small villages or all the cities have complete libraries of French-language material for teenagers and young people.
Furthermore, the school and the Franco-Manitoban school division really encouraged us to listen to and watch media in French. They took us to film screenings that they themselves organized in real film theatres and brought in Quebec and French films. That was my first exposure to those films, and I only understood a few words. I vaguely understood the story, but I had fun and I thought it was good that there were films in French, like the English films we saw elsewhere. However, I did not feel the same connection to the characters because I could not understand.
The local programming on Radio-Canada mainly concerned special events such as the Festival du voyageur in Saint-Boniface, a few excerpts of which were broadcast live. That in itself was a good way to reinforce identity. However, that coverage did not go on year-round.
Senator Poirier: We can see from your presentations that availability has improved somewhat. At the last CRTC hearings, Radio-Canada said it wanted to concentrate its youth content on the Internet rather than on television. However, it changed its mind in response to pressure by stakeholders.
What do you think would be the best way to attract young people to Radio-Canada?
Mr. Tougas: There is often some confusion between Internet content and audiovisual content that is available on the Internet. I accessed Radio-Canada's youth section sometimes when I was a teenager. It had some programs and several amusing games. It was relatively engaging content, and I did not really associate it with Radio-Canada.
I would like to point out that it is very important that it be audiovisual content, like TV programs, but those programs should be available as broadcast media on the Internet because that is really the kind of content that is engaging. When we see art that appeals to us, we feel a stronger identity-related connection than by playing a game, for example.
Talking about Radio-Canada's youth section, I would focus my answer concerning what attracts young people to Radio-Canada on that aspect. There are no doubt a number of tactics, but local programming is what comes first to my mind.
Mr. Lord: Mr. Tougas said it very well: local programming is still key if we want to attract not only young people, but also francophones in general, regardless of where they live in Canada. Local programming always has the advantage of showing us local stars on TV. Once they appear on the small screen, we want to go on the Internet to find out more about what they have achieved and the story of their success.
So I am talking about a kind of blend of the two media. On the one hand, we would have local television content focusing, for example, on youth and the francophone community. On the other hand, we would transition to Internet- based content for those who want to know more after a first point of contact on television. That would be a good way to kindle interest and maintain it over time.
Senator Poirier: Has Radio-Canada previously approached you, as an involved francophone organization, which is what you are, for your opinions and to see how they could improve the situation to ensure that the future generation is connected to Radio-Canada? Have you previously been consulted in any way?
Mr. Lord: As far as I can remember, I do not believe so. However, other companies or businesses trying to enter this market have approached us. I mentioned Accent in my presentation. TV5 also approached the Fédération des jeunes francophones du Nouveau-Brunswick to determine whether we were prepared to support them in broadcasting more French-language content.
Senator Poirier: Interesting.
Mr. Lord: The need is there and it is being felt by other players in the market. I would be pleased to see Radio- Canada play a similar role because Radio-Canada has a very good history and a very good reputation in general. If they expanded their content, that would be enough to meet the needs of the francophone communities across the country more effectively.
Mr. Tougas: With regard to news, once again Radio-Canada often seeks the views of young people and constantly talks about youth initiatives. I believe Mr. Lord will agree with me that local news broadcasts often deal with youth initiatives, youth councils, youth associations and federations, and I consider that entirely laudable.
It was interesting that you talked about that and it is also a nice coincidence because Radio-Canada is currently organizing a youth forum that will be broadcast on the Web and partly on TV. Ten years ago, a debate was organized with high school students on their concerns about the French fact. Radio-Canada is now reuniting those same students, who are now at university or in the labour market, and they are reflecting on the situation of the broader francophone community today.
However, I have heard nothing about programming consultations. I entirely agree that it is the other players in the market that have really jumped on this idea. So I would like Radio-Canada, as the national broadcaster, to follow the same instincts in future.
Senator Poirier: The committee will be preparing a report at the end of this exercise. If you had one recommendation to make to us for inclusion in that report, what would it be?
Mr. Tougas: As I said earlier, it would be to make more local programming. And what is very important is that, often when we say ``local programming,'' it is easier for broadcasters to create variety and non-fiction programs, documentaries, which do not necessarily attract the youth audience. It is much more appealing for Radio-Canada to develop concepts for fictional programs that could really attract a youth audience, and that would subsequently establish a clientele that would tune in to Radio-Canada and could then use their other products.
Until last year, the Local Programming Improvement Fund made it possible to create programs, but they have unfortunately been cut because that fund has been cancelled. And we are not seeing the same kind of programming at all this year. We wonder if it will be coming back. It would be really good for it to come back.
Mr. Lord: If I may go on about the principle of local programming, to me as chair of a youth organization, that does not simply mean passively reporting on what young people do, but rather really including young people in production.
Two years ago, I was lucky enough to film a TV program, Génies en herbe: l'aventure, with Radio-Canada. One of the members of my team, Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault, came from Kedgwick, a small village in New Brunswick. And what was really incredible was that we saw the community of Kedgwick rally around Guillaume and adopt not only the program and the team, but also the entire principle of Génies en herbe. So from the moment we include local players, people we know, that brings people together. In the Génies en herbe example, we witnessed not only a rallying of locals, but also a rallying of young people. The young people knew the various participants, since they had adopted the program; they watched it because they were interested in seeing people with whom they could share opinions, with whom they could identify.
Senator Robichaud: Madam Chair, they have answered virtually all my questions. You talk a lot about local programming. Mr. Lord, you cited the example of the program Génies en herbe, but are the human resources and equipment really there to do more at the local level and also to make those productions available on the Internet?
Mr. Lord: I would not want to venture an opinion on human, financial or material resources, but I could talk about will.
Since we are going back to the principle of political empathy, cultural empathy, that is a myth, not only among young people, but among the general public as well. You have to give people a chance, an opportunity.
So as regards human resources, I am sure we can find the expertise, the will to move things forward, to make local programming, and if we offer people the opportunity to do it, they should seize that opportunity. I sincerely believe they will seize that opportunity.
Mr. Tougas: If you are wondering whether the expertise is there, I would say yes. There are a number of independent production companies and there is a lot of personnel. I cited western Canada as an example, but there are a lot of independent production companies, producers, technicians and actors in French-speaking Ontario, just as there are in Acadia. I have worked with those people on the documentaries I have had the incredible opportunity to produce across Canada. I have visited every Canadian province and two of the territories and found skilled people everywhere, people who wanted to work at this occupation. And those experts are often the people in greatest demand when English- language or American productions come to film here at home.
The film industry is enormous in Vancouver, the film and television industry is growing in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. I mentioned Les Productions Rivard in Manitoba, which has more than 18 years of expertise in the field and has worked on productions ranging from documentaries to fiction in all age groups. There is also Slalom Productions in Ottawa, which has done major productions for TVA, TV5 and Radio-Canada. So the expertise and the will to create this programming are there, but we have to ask ourselves the eternal question: where will the funding come from? I am sure we can find it, and once it is found, we will have the expertise and the will.
Senator Robichaud: If someone had asked me why we are not seeing all these local productions, I would probably have answered that it was because we do not have the expertise or the resources, but, from what you say, the resources are there and there is a certain interest. But how is it that no one has urged Radio-Canada to include you?
You say that young people, teenagers, do not tune in to Radio-Canada. We somehow have to start getting young people interested, and we do not appear to be able to encourage the people in question to consult each other and to head in that direction.
Mr. Tougas: I hear two parts to your comment. With regard to the first part, I am going to cite an example for you. For the past five or six years, Radio-Canada has presented the series Pour un soir seulement, in which two artists are paired for one evening and produce in a musical performance. This is a national series by Radio-Canada; it is very well received nationally, but even more so in Manitoba, where it is filmed. It is a Quebec-flavoured program, featuring a number of rising Quebec artists, but several minority francophone artists are invited to get involved in the production and are often paired with renowned Quebec artists, which makes for some interesting exchanges. And all that is being filmed at the Centre culturel franco-manitobain in Saint-Boniface, and the expertise and technical capability are there. And this is a Radio-Canada program.
On the other hand, we were talking about the other players. I see more programming about the broader minority francophone community at the national level on TVA and TFO than I see on Radio-Canada. I wonder why Radio- Canada, which is our national broadcaster, has not answered the same call. TVA has a series entirely dedicated to francophone minority communities, entitled Viens voir ici, on Saturday mornings. I produce documentaries for that series. Some 250,000 to 300,000 people watch it every week, and that is just in the minority francophone communities. But Quebec audiences also watch those series. Somewhere among the other players there is an understanding of the fact that these programs are interesting and important; they want to broadcast them. Radio-Canada has been much slower to react in this regard. I could tell you why.
As for the second part of your question, I believe young people respond immediately when they see something that is like them. I see this in my own production. When I promote it, young people respond to the call immediately. Someone somewhere just has to give a little shove and young people immediately get involved. Suddenly the ball is rolling and the initiative continues endlessly.
Mr. Lord: With regard to the little shove that has to be given, we may have to force it a little at first, but as soon as people see that it is happening, that this person is not only like them, but that he or she is their friend, with whom they will be taking a math class the next morning and who is appearing on television, they will want to get involved. That may be what is lacking if we want to see greater community engagement with Radio-Canada and its products.
The Chair: I have a supplementary question to Senator Robichaud's questions and it is for you both.
Have you previously had the opportunity to discuss these points with Radio-Canada as you are doing with us today? Have you ever been asked for your viewpoint?
Mr. Lord: Unless my memory is failing, I do not believe so. However, I would not allow that opportunity to slip through my fingers. This is an important issue not only for francophones, but especially for young francophones. If I were offered the invitation, I would gladly accept it.
Mr. Tougas: I entirely agree with Sébastien. I would seize the opportunity immediately. However, it has not yet presented itself. Radio-Canada's administrative structure is a little beyond me. I do not know who we should necessarily contact for those decisions. Many local managers may handle that programming, but the money has to come from somewhere. In any case, that is a mystery to me. I admit I have not yet done any research. That idea came to me a long time ago, but I never really thought about the fact that we should perhaps contact Radio-Canada about the matter, even though I know that many members of my community have previously done it, but perhaps young people have not yet done it. So we will have to see.
Senator Champagne: First, I want to apologize for being late. I was meeting with some young people. Mr. Tougas, you will no doubt understand because you were the Speaker of the Parlement pancanadien. We are meeting with some young people who will be representing Canada at the Parlement de la jeunesse francophone, which will be held at the general assembly of the Assemblée des parlementaires de la Francophonie in Abidjan in July. I was still dealing with francophone affairs, as you can see.
Mr. Tougas, I am speaking to you as a director. Are you aware of a matter currently before the CRTC that could result in TV5 having two networks: TV5 Quebec Canada, related to TV5 Monde? Canadian production would represent 15 or 20 per cent, but if UNIS became a reality, there would be 75 per cent Canadian production with offices in the Prairies, British Columbia and the Atlantic provinces. So those would be places where you could present projects.
Did you take any action in that regard; did you support UNIS while you were there?
Mr. Lord, one of the people most involved in this project is your namesake, Marie-Josée Lord. I do not know whether you are related. Lord is quite a well-known name in New Brunswick. I want to ensure that this study focuses on Radio-Canada's obligations.
At one of our recent meetings, we heard from people from Saskatchewan who were more from the artistic world. We have young artists, but we have nowhere to make them known. I cannot help but think of the good that TV5 UNIS could do by making opportunities available for young directors and artists. I was wondering whether you had worked together, if only by letter, which I have done, I humbly admit. That would afford another francophone opening across the country. What do you know about that project?
Mr. Tougas: I entirely agree with you. That network could definitely open some very large and invaluable doors for the artistic community, not only for audiovisual film and television production, but also for other artistic forms that could be conveyed by those media. We are currently in a formative period in this industry, and I believe that will happen at a very appropriate time.
That is the comment I would like to make to you, and I must be very careful because two projects are currently being presented simultaneously.
Senator Champagne: Accent and TV5 UNIS.
Mr. Tougas: I heard about Accent several months ago, and I immediately supported it, and I have just recently heard about TV5 UNIS, and I definitely intend to support it as well.
What concerns me right now is that the people who would like to carry out these projects are fiercely competing with each other in order to implement their projects, almost to each other's detriment. I do not have the expertise to tell you that these two projects could co-exist, and I am not going to do that, but I find it hard to choose which project would be the better. I definitely support an initiative of this kind because one component of the market is really poorly served, and that is the minority francophone community. I would like to see a network that is more like us.
Senator Champagne: When we hear about three offices leaving Montreal or Ontario, that really means there will be some open doors. There is one for-profit company, whereas TV5 is a non-profit company, as a result of which the profits will go into local production. That is what encouraged me to offer my support, and I will be pleased to send you a comparison if you leave me an address. That could help you as both a producer and a francophone.
That will not end the connection with TV5 Monde, but if there is something else, something more than Quebec Canada Monde, if there is TV5 for all of Canada, with funding by the Government of Canada, by the Government of Quebec, or if all profits go to regional production, that will help make you known, you, your world and your works.
When your name is Sébastien Lord, it must be relatively easy to speak to Marie-Josée Lord at the University of Moncton.
Mr. Lord: Marie-Linda Lord. Yes, she works on the same university campus as I do.
Senator Champagne: I apologize for my lapse. You must know her, of course?
Mr. Lord: Yes, but that is not necessarily something that influences or guides the discussion.
However, she is an interesting source of information. That said, the important point here is not the rivalry with Radio-Canada, regardless of the politics that might be involved in the background.
Senator Champagne: The important thing is to open doors for you.
Mr. Lord: Exactly. The important point for us at the Fédération des jeunes francophones du Nouveau-Brunswick is to see local artists on the airwaves, regardless of who gives them that opportunity. Once again, there are various organizations, of course. There may be advantages and disadvantages; that varies with the purpose of the organization. Once again, however, the important thing is to see our young people, our francophones, our artists on the airwaves, on radio and television.
As Mr. Tougas mentioned, there is this rivalry between Accent and TV5. I think it is a bit sad because it creates division between people who have the common goal of creating local production.
Senator McIntyre: I have carefully listened to you and I must admit that what you have to say is very interesting. I would like to go back to the CRTC hearings that were held in Gatineau in November.
As you know, the CRTC is a kind of ivory tower. It issues directives to television broadcasters and to CBC/Radio- Canada, and all the people who have appeared before the committee said that they had presented briefs to the CRTC. Do you know whether any youth representatives have presented a brief to the CRTC, or at least made an oral presentation?
Mr. Lord: I can speak on behalf of my organization and say no. However, TV5 approached us for a letter of support in preparation for its hearings before the CRTC.
Mr. Tougas: I would have to check, but, from memory, I do not believe that we have taken part in any CRTC hearings.
Senator McIntyre: Do you have any knowledge of any efforts by youth representatives to mobilize the CRTC to get things moving a little faster?
Mr. Lord: I have had a chance to interact with young people on several occasions at seminars and meetings. What is really interesting is that young people have the will. However, they do not necessarily have the knowledge of the bureaucracy and government bodies. I have not heard of any youth efforts to mobilize the CRTC, perhaps because they do not necessarily know the principle of the CRTC and its role.
However, they are not short of ideas, and if they were told that the opportunity was there and that it was up to youth organizations to do it, young people would be interested in taking a position on that.
Senator Mockler: First, I want to congratulate you on the leadership you are showing. I was intrigued by your answer to one of the questions from the chair, Senator Chaput. Have you been consulted? Are you going to be consulted or are you going to take steps to be consulted on the renewal of the roadmap?
Mr. Tougas: I would say that I have been in the situation of being quite close to that for some time. The fact that we are appearing before you today encourages us to move forward and to discuss these questions. Personally and professionally, I did a great deal of thinking about that. I had not yet taken those steps, but, with regard to youth in general and the organizations that represent young people, I can say that my thinking focused on that topic and that it will continue.
When I return to Manitoba, I will consult the Conseil jeunesse provincial and definitely encourage it to participate in the process to a greater degree. We see that there is a political will and we also have that political will. So that makes a good match from the outset. That is why I am motivated by these discussions and by the attention being paid to this subject.
Mr. Lord: Once again, consultation on this matter is not something that is commonly done by young people. However, it is important that we take steps to initiate contact and to work on something that will become important for the Fédération des jeunes francophones du Nouveau-Brunswick.
All our actions, all our principles and all our policies come from young people and are consistent with their interests. We notice that interest in television production is developing. It would not surprise me to see a youth movement really start to mobilize more around these issues in the next few years.
Senator Mockler: I would like to tell you, through the chair, that the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality concerns what will be the linguistic duality of tomorrow. I believe you will have a role to play and you have shown that this afternoon. I definitely encourage you to get involved and to make it known whether you want to be a presence in this future renewal by the Canadian government.
I would like to go back to a comment that one of our previous witnesses from British Columbia made, and I quote:
Social media is the way of the future, so Radio-Canada could and should devote more social media space to francophone communities outside of Quebec. This would also enable francophone and francophile youth to be in contact with Radio-Canada and to preserve their identities, especially in remote provinces like ours.
I would like to hear your comments. Are social media an instrument that should create more relationships for francophones in the linguistic communities or could they become an instrument of assimilation? Coming from New Brunswick, I do not like to say that word.
Mr. Lord: Absolutely. Social media will have to play an increasingly prominent role in broadcasting and will ultimately be the medium of choice. As I mentioned in my presentation, we at the FJFNB have run awareness campaigns, such as Libérons les couleurs, that have been remarkably successful in social media.
That is virtually the only way for us to spread our message. There is some interest from local television stations, but we initially did it in that medium. If we could encourage CBC/Radio-Canada or any other major company to use social media to broadcast this message about youth productions, the positive impact could be incredible. In that respect, yes, social media can and must be used for the benefit of our francophone communities.
With regard to the sub-question on assimilation, as in anything else, there may be a good way and a bad way to do it. And I believe that assimilation need not be a risk if we use social media appropriately. They are at least a medium like any other.
Mr. Tougas: Social media have made an enormous contribution to the development of youth initiatives. That development has even occurred outside the institutional context.
One of our generation's interesting reactions is that, instead of consulting or writing to Radio-Canada to tell them about what makes us angry or frustrated, we simply create our own means of distribution. For example, my feature film Héliosols was entirely financed by the community; we received no grants. We did not even try to gauge broadcasters' interest. We started a financing campaign, which was then broadcasted mainly on social media and travelled by word of mouth around the communities, and we received contributions from people so that we could finance the production.
Social media were initially of enormous assistance in creating this artistic product, and they will subsequently promote distribution of that product. The example of the Libérons les couleurs campaign made that clear; the campaign reached into our homes through social media. Similarly, one of the productions of the Conseil jeunesse provincial (Manitoba) from a few years ago, Ceci est le message, which I produced and co-wrote with my writing partner Mathieu Labossière, was essentially an essay in short-film format on the cultural identity of young Manitoban francophones. It exploded over social media within the francophone community. It even went as far as France and Louisiana.
That short film created new partnerships between the Conseil jeunesse provincial (Manitoba) and the youth movement among young francophones in Louisiana, and that had never previously done that. That was not originally our goal at all, but this shows the spontaneous tendency of social media. If a group of people like something, it suddenly explodes and social media enable us to circumvent the current structure.
Coming back to Radio-Canada, which is the issue before this committee today, Radio-Canada can use social media to a greater extent, although I think it is already using it well, to reach people who do not necessarily use their products every day. For example, Radio-Canada's morning program in Manitoba, Le 6 à 9, has its own Facebook page, broadcasts all major news on its Facebook page, and that news appears immediately in the news feeds of all subscribers. First of all, people have to sign up with Facebook and you therefore have to generate some interest in Radio-Canada. But from the moment young people are interested, they no longer have to go to the Radio-Canada website because it is there in front of them. Yes, Radio-Canada has to create that interest at the outset, but social media are perhaps one of the main ways to communicate what they have to communicate.
Senator Mockler: I would like to have your opinion on whether that can become an assimilation factor.
Mr. Tougas: In fact, I would say that, compared to normal society, social media are more beneficial to a minority's identity than assimilation. Assimilation is less a deciding factor in social media than it is in real life, in everyday social interaction.
That is because a group of people can meet via social media, regardless of where they are, based on their interests and common identity. I can communicate with Sébastien, just as I can communicate with my francophone friends across the country through social media. They enable me to network and reinforce the identity I have in me, which is first as a French Canadian, second as a francophone from western Canada and, lastly, as a Franco-Manitoban. In social media, we often find ways to communicate with each other and to reinforce our identity in a way that we do not in our everyday social interactions, which are more limited by our geographical location. Social media may well result in a little assimilation, but definitely not the same degree of assimilation, if we can put a number on it, that we might see in everyday interactions or in our situation as a minority community.
The Chair: Interesting. I have a supplementary question to that of Senator Mockler. When you talk about social media, about what both of you currently see there, what percentage of what you find there would be in French, compared to what is in English?
Mr. Lord: Social media are a very clear representation of the circle of people around us. The percentage of French, English or any other language will often reflect the people you naturally know around you, but sometimes, in our case, with a slightly greater tendency toward French, precisely because we can stay in touch with people located far away. As Mr. Tougas said, I can talk to him on social media, even though he is not part of my regular circle. So that increases the number of people in the francophone world I can interact with. Consequently, even though we may see a little assimilation in social media, we will not see more than what we might naturally see among people if they were not there. What we see most in social media, and once again Mr. Tougas said this, is that an individual's identity is reinforced, and that is a francophone identity in our case.
The Chair: Because we want to reach them so they can continue communicating in French during this very difficult period. Is the situation the same for teenagers? Will they communicate in French as much as in English?
Mr. Lord: I am not the best person to answer that question. I am not an expert on social media. Ultimately, all I can say is what people tell me about it.
Mr. Tougas: I was not really very familiar with social media when I was a teenager. I cannot tell you about my experience with my generation, but there are two very distinct social media trends that essentially replicate real life, or rather society in a geographic area. On the one hand, people who are bilingual sometimes feel that, if they want to share something with as many people as possible, they will do it in English because they know that their francophone friends speak English and they have unilingual anglophone friends, who only speak English.
However, there is an opposite effect on anglophones, one that I like to call reverse assimilation. For example, I have unilingual anglophone friends, like many people, obviously, because we live in a minority, and those people are exposed to my French-language publications. They would not be exposed to them in the same way if we interacted socially within our circle of friends because, when I interact with them, I often do it in English because they constitute a circle of unilingual anglophone friends. They would not necessarily have access or would not have the same vision of the interactions that I have with my francophone friends; they are in a position to witness those interactions and they ultimately consider it very interesting to see people interact in French. So identity is reinforced, but this also has the effect of interesting and intriguing the anglophone population who would like to learn French so that they can interact in French and practise French with one another. And since many social media offer instantaneous translation, they can see the publication in French but understand what it means. So there is also this aspect of learning the French language, and that is very inspirational.
You asked me to give you a percentage of teenagers, but that depends on what group you mean. We can easily say that nearly 100 per cent of people are proud to be francophone. I do not know what the percentage is among the population born to francophone parents, among the population born to exogamous families and so on. You can see that in a lot of different groups.
The Chair: Thank you. That is fine. That is a very good answer. Thanks to both of you.
Now we will go to a second round; we have approximately 10 minutes left.
Senator Tardif: Senator Mockler more or less asked my question. It concerned social media and the risk of assimilation given the lack of French-language content. I believe our young people are more attracted to social media in English because they offer a broader scope. You have helped me understand something. I always thought that, since French did not have enough representation in social media, that exposed our young people to assimilation, whereas you say that, because it expands your circle, identity is reinforced and becomes a factor in reinforcing rather than diminishing the French fact. You encourage me. I really thought that the absence of French in social media was an assimilation factor.
Both of you talked about the importance of being engaged. You made that distinction. I believe this is an important factor. If we are engaged as francophones, we will be more inclined to go to websites such as TOU.TV, for example. However, if you are not a young person engaged in organizations such as Francophonie jeunesse, Parlement jeunesse and so on, the situation is very different. Will having access to youth programs and local programming encourage young people to engage, or on the contrary, do we need to have young people who engage before they use those media? What do you think the decisive factor is?
Mr. Lord: Fiction or entertainment programming starring young people would do no harm, but I am not sure that will necessarily encourage young people to engage a little more. However, reporting specifically about the activities that organizations in the youth and community networks offer could encourage more young people to engage in their community because they would realize that engagement is not only important, but that it is also valued by the rest of society. That is quite appealing to a young person. Obviously, once youth are engaged, they will enter the francophone community and increasingly listen to and watch entertainment in French.
Mr. Tougas: I want to make a brief correction. Communication in social media is done in the language of the person's choice. Otherwise it would be like saying that, because the telephone operator speaks English, I should speak to my father in English over the telephone. Communication can nevertheless take place in French even though the tool works in English. It involves a keyboard, words and messages.
Second, the major social media such as Facebook and Twitter have French-language options that virtually everyone in my circle uses. We can interact completely in French on Facebook, whether through the mechanism itself or with the people around us. That is the first point.
The second point on content is that you do not see advertising for French-language Quebec programs on CTV or CBC, but that has to come from somewhere, and not necessarily from the youth associations or federations that represent francophones. Parents or schools can keep young people informed of that French-language content. Teachers and parents can be models by watching or informing their students and children that that programming exists.
I know of teachers who use websites such as TOU.TV and who encourage young people to download the content of francophone artists from iTunes. The entire class responds to that and listens to and watches those things, not because it is mandatory — it is not — but because they are legitimately interested and impressed by those tools. This is simply a matter of increased awareness. Young people do not necessarily need to be engaged in order to be interested in this entertainment.
Senator Tardif: Music is very important for young people. Is there any good music to download from Radio- Canada's websites?
Mr. Tougas: Definitely. They play Lisa LeBlanc. They play great artists on Radio-Canada, on CKSB in Manitoba, and young people, like all francophones, find that music easy to listen to.
Mr. Lord: Francophone music is indeed on the Internet, not just on the Radio-Canada site as such. I can mention artists such as Lisa LeBlanc and the Hay Babies. I can mention Accros à la chanson, which my federation organizes every year in a place where, for the first time, young francophones can find a platform to express themselves artistically in French.
Senator Tardif: Thank you.
Senator Robichaud: I am going to make a gratuitous statement here: Radio-Canada radio and television do not really reflect your generation's aspirations, but rather those of another generation. What would you say, yes or no?
Senator Tardif: True or false?
Mr. Lord: The medium of choice definitely changes with audience demographics. People will prefer television or paper because they are familiar with that, but young people prefer information technology. That is the medium they grew up with, and that is the medium in which they work and live.
Mr. Tougas: Young Quebecers, young minority francophones and young anglophones listen to and watch CBC. I believe there is only one group that may be slightly less well served. On the other hand, if we are just talking about young people, we may also be talking universally as francophones. I believe that minority francophones are one of the only groups poorly served by Radio-Canada. Young people are not universally poorly served. On the contrary, I have seen that there is programming for teenagers, but, on Radio-Canada, it is mainly for Quebec teenagers. We do not have the same cultural references, and we are therefore somewhat alienated by that programming.
Senator Poirier: This may not be the case in all provinces, but community radio stations occupy a prominent position in the media in New Brunswick. CJSE in Shediac, for example, covers a large area. A large segment of the population relies on regional community radio for its local news. Do young people find community radio stations appealing? Young people are really more attracted by social media, but do they also listen to radio?
Mr. Lord: Young people are fascinated if a friend appears on radio or television. That is an excellent way to draw young people away from social media and toward conventional media, if I may use that expression. If they see a youth production on a community radio station, young people will listen to it and will then be tempted to listen to the rest of the production.
Senator Poirier: Do community radio stations give young people air time? Are there any programs that target youth?
Mr. Lord: I have heard about programs produced for young people at community radio stations, but that varies from station to station.
Mr. Tougas: Without wanting to criticize the quality of programming, which is in fact very good, virtually anyone with a legitimate desire to produce a radio program can show up on community radio in Manitoba and do it. I think this is an enormous resource. Most of these people use this as a springboard to launch a professional career at Radio- Canada, for example.
A lot of radio hosts train actively by producing radio. So community radio is not just important for listeners; it also encourages young people and gives them resources so that they can start producing their own content. That is the great strength of community radio.
I would not necessarily say that a lot of people listen to community radio, but a lot of people know that, if they want to produce radio programming, it is there for them.
The Chair: Honourable senators, on your behalf, I would like to thank our two ``youth'' witnesses, if I may use that expression, Sébastien Lord, from New Brunswick, and Gabriel Tougas, from Manitoba. Your presentations were very thoughtful and interesting. Your answers to senators' questions show that you know what you are talking about. You know your communities, you are engaged in them, you believe in them, and you have shown that you can live in French even in a bilingual province, and an anglophone majority province to boot, but you have shown that it is possible to do so.
As you may have realized, you have here a Senate committee in which you see some highly engaged senators who want to produce a relevant report.
On their behalf, I want to thank you for your contribution and to wish you both a safe trip home.
Honourable senators, I will now suspend the meeting for a few minutes, after which we will reconvene in camera.
(The committee continued in camera.)