Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 6 - Evidence - May 27, 2014
OTTAWA, Tuesday, May 27, 2014
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 9:36 a.m. to study the challenges relating to First Nations infrastructure on reserves.
[Translation]
Marcy Zlotnick, Clerk of the Committee: Welcome everyone. I see we have a quorum. As clerk of the committee, it is my duty to inform you that the chair and deputy chair could not be here today for reasons that could not be helped, and therefore I must preside over the election of an acting chair.
[English]
I am ready to receive a motion to nominate an acting chair.
Senator Wallace: I would nominate Senator Scott Tannas.
Ms. Zlotnick: Thank you, Senator Wallace. Are there any other nominations? Seeing none, I will put the question. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Wallace that the Honourable Senator Tannas do take the chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Zlotnick: I declare the motion carried, and I invite the Honourable Senator Tannas to take the chair.
Senator Scott Tannas (Acting Chair) in the chair.
The Acting Chair: Good morning, everyone. Before we get started, our upcoming witnesses have provided us with a brief that we have not yet had time to have translated. Is it okay with everybody here if we accept it and distribute an English-only copy?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Acting Chair: Thank you. I would like to welcome all honourable senators and members of the public who are watching this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples either here in the room or via CPAC or on the Web. I'm Scott Tannas from Alberta. The mandate of this committee is to examine legislation and matters relating to the Aboriginal peoples of Canada generally. This morning, we are hearing testimony on a specific order of reference authorizing us to examine and report on the challenges and potential solutions relating to infrastructure on reserves, including housing, community infrastructure and innovative opportunities for financing and more effective collaborative strategies.
Today, we will hear from Prince Albert Grand Council. Established in 1977, Prince Albert Grand Council is a tribal council that represents 12 First Nations in Saskatchewan, including Dakota, Cree and Dene communities. It aims to support its member First Nations to achieve and implement independent, progressive self-governments.
Before proceeding to testimony, I would like to go around the table and ask the members of the committee to introduce themselves.
Senator Moore: Good morning. Wilfred Moore from Nova Scotia.
Senator Sibbeston: I'm Nick Sibbeston from the Northwest Territories.
Senator Meredith: Good morning. Senator Don Meredith, Ontario.
Senator Beyak: Good morning. Senator Lynn Beyak, Ontario.
Senator Boisvenu: Good morning. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu from Quebec.
Senator Wallace: John Wallace from New Brunswick.
The Acting Chair: Members of the committee, please help me welcome our witnesses from Prince Albert Grand Council: Frank Bighead, Director, Technical Services; and Vincent Genereaux, Housing Advisor, Technical Services, Housing Department.
Gentlemen, we look forward to your presentations. We will follow that up with questions from senators. The floor is yours.
Frank Bighead, Director, Technical Services, Prince Albert Grand Council: Good morning, members of the committee. My name is Frank Bighead. I have worked for Prince Albert Grand Council for practically my whole life. I've been involved in the housing trade for many years. I'm going to do my portion of the presentation, and then I'm going to hand it over to Vince. He'll do a short introduction of himself, and we'll carry on that way.
First, I wanted to mention our tribal council. We're called the grand council because we do have four tribal councils that we represent in the middle. It's not because we think we're grand.
I wanted not so much to read from the presentation but more to go off on the notes. We're trying to make our presentation more positive. We've listened to and watched a lot of the presentations thus far, and we've heard all the points. We've heard a lot of the complaining, and, hopefully, we don't want to rehash any of that. We'll try to stay away from that and carry on that way.
Having said that, to go back to an important issue to us in Saskatchewan, the treaty right to shelter, that is still of paramount concern, and we do hold that in high regard. I want to read you an excerpt from our business statement:
It is the Prince Albert Grand Council's position that Shelter as housing, renovations and related infrastructure is a Treaty Right and forms part of the Federal Trust and Fiscal Responsibility. The position is based on the special First Nations-Crown relationship dating back to the Royal Proclamation of 1763. Section 91.24 enhances this position in the Constitution Act, 1867, and Sections 25 and 34 of the Constitution Act of 1982.
I just wanted to mention that before I start off the presentation.
So, treaty right to shelter is paramount to us, and that's what we base a lot of our workings on.
We have heard a lot across the country about the troubles and possibly some of the failures that our fellow bands have had across the nation, and we keep hearing about poor quality of housing. I beg to differ on that point in our province. Ours is the most stringently controlled product there is out there. I would challenge any municipality or any city in the country to build a better quality house with the minimal resources that we have. Our houses are inspected an average of 10 times each. We're paid for 4, we do 6, but we end up doing more progress inspections to keep money flowing, sometimes up to 20 of them, depending on the size of the project.
They're really tightly controlled and there is no pile of lumber that's different at the lumberyard. It's the same lumber that is used across Canada. On that part I want to make that clear. In Saskatchewan we do not have poor-quality construction. We do build modest houses. We do build some houses that are in crawl spaces because that's what we can afford, plus we live on Precambrian Shield or in the swampy areas, so we have to build our houses to suit the locations.
When I said that we build modest houses, we have a limited amount of funds that we can work with. We don't have the luxury of resource revenue sharing. We do not share in any of that. We have limited means to achieve economic development. What do we develop in our reserves in the North when in some cases there is 70 per cent unemployment? What are you going to develop? How are you going to have a home ownership program? Having said that, we are in the midst of developing home ownership programs. We're trying our best. It is taking a while, but we are getting there.
Going back to modest means, when we talk about band-based capital or A-based capital in our First Nations, over my 35 years of experience it has made sense to me that for every 1,000 Indians in any reserve in Canada we get approximately $400,000. If we do simple math and realize that one house costs $200,000 to build, we have to pay staff out of there yet, we have to pay for insurance on every house, we have to pay for education, we have to pay for fire protection and all the staffing for that. That gives a sense of the limited amount of funds we have through the federal government that we're working with.
We do try to mortgage units to spread the cost out over 20 or 25 years or whatever the case may be. However, in many cases we're still qualifying people that would not otherwise qualify in the municipalities or in the cities for mortgages. We're setting ourselves up for failure because many of our people are not guaranteed a job past six months in our First Nations. We can't guarantee jobs for a lifetime. We can't guarantee jobs for 10 years or 5 years even. Mortgages are a little iffy.
How long do houses last? We've heard from previous presenters why we have overcrowding. There are many reasons, and I'm sure you in the room will remember a lot of those that we have mentioned. If a house is overcrowded it would make sense that it's not going to last as long. When I'm teaching or facilitating for Canada Mortgage and Housing in our province, I'll always use as an example if you have an average Canadian occupancy of 2.7 people and you round that up to 3, and each of those 3 people flush the toilet 5 times a day, that's 15 times a day the toilet is flushed. Multiply that by 3 or 4 and that makes it 60 times a day the toilet is flushed. That gives you a sense of how long something is going to last.
In simple terms, in some of our areas, infrastructure is a big issue. For years we reluctantly agreed with the federal government to put our people in subdivisions, where we were used to building houses remotely all over the First Nations. We finally begrudgingly agreed. We moved our subdivisions within one kilometre of a school to cut down on busing. No more did we build costly houses away from the centralized communities. We ended up getting rid of sewer trucks, water delivery trucks, graders and busing for students. Now there's no money for infrastructure. Now we're being told by the federal government to go back to building remotely. Well, it's not that easy after we got rid of the infrastructure that we had in place.
Why do we have no money in infrastructure? Well, if you've been around within the system for as long as I have, for the 35 years, you get to realize that the money in the pot has never changed in Canada since 1984. I know that for a fact. However, they keep announcing new programs. Well, where does the money for those new programs come from? We have to lose something to gain something. We sometimes worry about a new program being announced in that sense, and we know we're going to lose something when something is announced.
Lately, there were things in our province such as increments to salaries for teachers. I know where that came from. Take it from major capital. When social housing rents were off-loaded to the provinces, where are they paying the social housing rents from? Major capital, right? Well, we're down to $19 million in our province for infrastructure dollars. Our requests at PAGC last year were $250 million. Our provincial requests in Saskatchewan are $550 million, and we have $19 million to work with. It's impossible; it's not going to be done.
First Nations that qualified for the social housing programs through Canada Mortgage and Housing and INAC and historically built houses constantly can no longer build houses because we have nowhere to build them. That's the critical stage we're at now.
How do we address that? We haven't built any new schools. The schools that are built are built for the current year's population on the First Nation. They never project future years' population growth. As soon as we move into schools we've outgrown them.
Infrastructure is failing, but there's no money there to renovate or build new schools. Last year I believe there were two new schools in Canada; one was in northern Quebec and one in northern Saskatchewan. I'm not sure where the funding came from for those, but there's no money.
We are trying to do our part to provide flood mitigation. We beg, borrow, but we don't steal equipment to go steaming culverts in the spring, for instance, to get water flowing. We're trying to help ourselves, but we're very limited in our resources. We don't have access to any dollars to purchase equipment, yet we still do mitigation. We use shovels if we have to. We're trying to do that. All federal and provincial funds go towards responding to emergencies, but nothing goes to mitigation. We have to try to change that a bit.
We used to be known as Prince Albert Grand Council engineering department. A few months ago, on April 1, we lost those services in the advisory service cuts. We lost our engineer. We essentially lost two positions, so we're no longer engineering. We're now tech services. We had to change our title because it's a misnomer now. No more engineers there. It's just part of the cuts. We understand. We don't agree with it, but we're just rolling along with the punches.
I promised you some positives. It's not all doom and gloom. I am very proud of our organization and the way we work together with our province of Saskatchewan. All our tribal councils work together. There are seven tribal councils in Saskatchewan. We work very well with our local Canada Mortgage and Housing office, and I don't say that just because a certain person is here. We all work together. You can see how close we are as she came to support us in this presentation.
But public education is our number one issue right now. That's what we're promoting. We're teaching people how to live in houses. Some of our First Nations will not give a key to their homeowners until they have gotten a certificate from us that says we have taught them everything about that house, including finances — how money works — before they move into that house. So we're very proud of that.
Our quality of construction, as I mentioned at the beginning, is second to none, and I'll stand by that statement against anybody. Home ownership we're getting into. You've heard about one of our larger bands, our First Nation of Lac La Ronge Indian Band; they're well into home ownership. They're probably 50 per cent of the way there. They have a population of 9,000 or 10,000 people, and they're working hard to get there. They're almost there. This is in northern Saskatchewan. Plus, we have a wealth of experience. We are designing our own homes and approving our own foundations, something that not many other municipalities let alone tribal councils can do across Canada. I'm very proud of that fact, and it's because of our experience that we can do that. We're designing houses that are custom made for the location that they are going to. Vince will further elaborate on that.
I mentioned the basic home maintenance course that we're teaching our homeowners. Another one is My Home is My Teepee. I don't know if you've heard of that one. That's our education system. It was introduced in Saskatchewan, by the way. I'm proud of that fact. With that, I'll wait for questions later on. I'm going to pass it on to Vincent Genereaux, our housing manager.
Vincent Genereaux, Housing Advisor, Technical Services, Housing Department, Prince Albert Grand Council: Good morning, senators. I would like to thank you for giving us the opportunity to come to speak to you today on this important issue of Aboriginal housing and infrastructure. Frank and I are front-line workers. We've both been in this business for close to 40 years, for me anyway. I'm the housing adviser, as the chair mentioned, but I'm also the head inspector for the grand council. I'm also a sitting board member of the First Nations National Building Officers Association, FNNBOA. They were here on December 3, speaking to the group here. I'm going to speak about housing.
I've got a few issues that I will speak on but also a couple of our successes. Maybe I'll brief on you what we're about because there have been national headlines of houses not being built to code. It's a little different in Saskatchewan.
I wanted to read off a few of the things that we do. It is the PAGC Housing Services' mandate to ensure that housing inspectors have obtained their inspector designation. CMHC gives us that designation. They have some requirements in our province that we meet either SBOA, Saskatchewan Building Officials Association, or FNNBOA Part 9 and small buildings, and we also need to have, since we're located in northern Saskatchewan, a lot of wood-burning appliances. We need the WETT, wood energy technical transfer, certification. That includes code compliance, wood burning systems and site basic inspections. Probably 50 per cent of our fire deaths can be attributed to wood burning systems. It's not that we inspected them wrong. It's because they don't tell us they're putting them in. They purchase equipment themselves, and there's something missing usually. We find that out in the investigation part.
As for what we do, in brief, your notes have a little bit more detail, but I'm just going to touch on some of the highlights.
The housing inspectors review band housing and renovation projects for both technical feasibility and soundness. We conduct site and code compliance inspections on behalf of CMHC, AANDC and PAGC. We do other inspections for insurance companies, on a fee-for-service basis. We do RCMP residences, nursing stations and teacherages. We also do a lot of training through information transfer. Frank and I are both under contract to CMHC to deliver their suite of training. Pertaining to the information transfer, we provide advice and coordinate and conduct training of First Nations housing coordinators, and we also do a lot of proposal writing to access training dollars for them and for contractors on the band and new inspectors as well.
So that's what we do in housing. One of the biggest issues — and I am sure you've heard of it many times — is overcrowding. We want to give you our perspective. We have a few things that contribute to it that are a little different in our region.
Based on PAGC's housing inventory database, PAGC has a total of 4,437 units, with 12,360 bedrooms, averaging 2.78 bedrooms per unit. As of April 2014, PAGC's total population was 38,832, of which 23,464 members still resided on reserve. That's an average of 1.9 people per bedroom, which is about double the national average. We prefer to use this people-per-bedroom count alongside the people-per-unit count because it reflects a truer picture for our area. For example, PAGC communities tend to build smaller, two-to-four-bedroom units on shallow frost-protected foundations, otherwise known as crawl spaces. They are better suited for site conditions found in our territory. This design maximizes limited resources, but it is more expensive to add bedroom space in the long run. PAGC territory covers one third of Saskatchewan's total land mass or 217,299 square kilometres, according to our GIS department. That's kind of a plug for them as well. We have one of the better GIS departments in Saskatchewan. Within that area, there are four sectors, as Frank mentioned, each with three First Nations with their own unique circumstances. The eastern and southern sectors are centrally located, and they run from Prince Albert to the Manitoba border. They are prone to major floods. These floods have become an annual event and have forced evacuations on a number of occasions, and, although it's expensive, it's far more practical to build these crawl-space houses there or build up the lots, make little islands. It adds a lot of cost, and we're limited to the size of houses we build that way because we usually want to provide more families with houses.
The woodland sector includes La Ronge, Peter Ballantyne and Montreal Lake. They're around the Canadian Shield, a lot of rock, and it's very expensive to put in infrastructure in those areas as there's a lot of blasting. They also deal with smaller houses to accommodate that, without basements. The Athabasca sector is located in northern, remote locations of the province. They have issues pertaining to the high cost of freight and the winter roads that are not lasting as long as they did in the past. They're melting sooner and taking longer to freeze up. That shortens the building season for them. There are also very sandy soil conditions, along with limited access to approved granular drainage material, and that leads excess moisture, mould and shifting. Fire protection is a huge concern and expense for all of PAGC's 12 communities. That also pertains to forest fires because we are located in the forest area.
There are other factors that affect overcrowding in PAGC. The James Smith Cree Nation has been disqualified from section 95 for 15 years. That has contributed to an occupancy rate of 8.5 people per house or 2.62 people per bedroom, which is the highest occupancy rate in the province. Statistics show that only 60 per cent of membership still lives on the community.
In that flood zone, the Shoal Lake and the Red Earth First Nations are approaching eight people per house or 2.4 people per bedroom. The two communities each have 85 per cent of their membership still living on reserve, so they're not leaving like the other communities.
We have some communities that are only 50 per cent of what they used to be, and that is one of our biggest bands, Peter Ballantyne Cree Nation. They have been suspended for close to 20 years from any social housing, and the program that was designed to help is actually hurting them big time and they're forced to move. Those are the issues that are affecting overcrowding in our area, combined with the social housing cuts funding issue.
PAGC communities cannot keep up with the preventative maintenance and replacement reserves when units are that overcrowded. That, along with the large number of people living in the units, to the point where they sleep in shifts, has had detrimental health, social and economic effects on their people.
The annual CMHC section 95 budget decreased by 28.5 per cent in 2012, and the $18.7 million section 95 budget for Saskatchewan is actually lifetime subsidy dollars spread over an average of 20-year amortization. The actual construction costs from CMHC-administered loans in combination with band funds for 2012 only amounted to 88 units for 74 First Nations of Saskatchewan. Only 17 qualified. So that program is not working for all the bands.
Those are two issues that I wanted to bring up. I want to go into our successes now because in order to address the overcrowding and the houses not lasting, Frank started this a long time ago, it's easier to change one policy than 100,000 people. We decided to build better, review innovative ideas to make our houses last longer and to follow code. We're well into our PAGC building permit strategy, and I will read it out because it is detailed.
The Engineering and Technical Services is responsible for the construction inspections of residential and commercial buildings, inspections new and renovated buildings and providing technical service such as reviewing and approving plans.
Theoretically, the Engineering and Technical Services is further responsible for implementing Council-adopted by-laws and policies through residential and commercial building plan reviews, and building and plumbing inspection services. The focus is to provide the communities with high quality service so that buildings constructed in the 12 First Nations conform to the requirements of the British Columbia Building Code, the Zoning and Building By-laws, Land Use Contracts, and Development Permits and are safe for their intended purpose. At the practical level, however, few bylaws exist that require construction to comply with national building and fire codes, no zoning and other building bylaws, nor are permits issued to ensure homes are built to code. While the Engineering and Technical Services adhere to the various codes and building standards, it is the responsibilities of the Chief and Council in each of the 12 First Nations to have the required bylaws to ensure homes are built to codes and their communities are safe for their members.
I will give some of the background of what we have done. Currently, PAGC housing and tech services received funds to administer minor capital inspections for community projects. We also conduct inspections fee for service for CMHC, Health Canada, insurance companies and lending institutes. There is also a trend of community members constructing or renovating their homes through the band's home ownership program.
The home ownership program is probably the main reason we got into the building permit system, because we didn't have anything that professional to offer the lenders and the homeowners themselves. It created an opportunity, and through direct discussions with each of our member communities, and at a chief's meeting they signed the tribal council resolution giving us the go-ahead, one year ago, to pursue this building permit system.
We've done lots of work since then. We've gone through our 12 communities at eight different locations. We've prepared them through CMHC's better building series, a three-day course, and spent another two days updating them on what the building permit system is about, and also updating our Prince Albert Grand Council housing specifications. We keep a little binder that we have developed over many years. We add to it every year. It's designed to reduce mould and make the house last longer. Frank will be touching on that a little bit more later.
In First Nations communities, a building permit is a formal written approval from the Chief and Council to construct, add on to, or renovate, alter or demolish existing buildings. Building permits are necessary because they enable a Chief and Council to ensure all buildings meet the terms set out by band-and zoning by-laws, which include the provincial or national building code and any health and safety regulations that may come into play. They help ensure buildings are safe for occupants. The Chief and Council can issue these permits as they are the authority having jurisdiction.
I know FNNBOA talked a lot about the authority having jurisdiction here, so I will just read the first sentence:
Authority having jurisdiction refers to a governing body responsible for the enforcement of any part of the building code or the official or agency designated by that body to exercise such a function.
As the inspection agency, we're an arm of that authority, and this is how we're going to administer the building permit system.
The main objective of the building permit system is to ensure that the homes built in First Nations communities are safe, not only for today but for many years to come, and to provide a professional framework whereby chiefs and councils could pass the required bylaws to ensure that housing and tech services can carry out their required mandate and partnership.
The second objective is to maintain accountability over the quality of the buildings to ensure it is being built to a higher standard that will address the challenges of housing located in First Nations communities.
Third is to provide reasonable assurance to individual homeowners that their house meets standards and codes that will protect their investments.
Fourth is to provide ongoing training and mentorship whereby the workforce is provided updates and the knowledge to meet that higher standard of construction.
Fifth is to provide a process where First Nations could rely in terms of addressing future generations' housing needs, and for succession and transition planning.
On the current status, which I touched on already, we went through the communities, we delivered the training, we updated our spec package and now it's at the stage where we have to present the finished package to the leaders to ratify it through BCRs and to let the community know that this building permit system is going to be happening.
When you hear stories in the media of not building to code, I think it's more to do with the homeowners themselves taking on the work of adding on to their own house or installing their own equipment and not getting it inspected. In my opinion that is probably a big part of those negative stories that we're hearing.
Mr. Bighead: I have two more points, which I will go through quickly.
We have our code, plus housing specifications. We have our own specifications that are over and above the National Building Code. These were developed in light of the thinking that we usually meet with all contractors before they start projects in our communities. We have a specification package that includes electrical, plumbing, heating and framing, and everything that goes along with house construction. Whoever the contractor is that is doing that certain portion or putting a bid in, or tendering that process, we give him that piece of the specification. They have to follow our rules. If they don't follow our rules, we never hire them again, so it's simple.
Again, we're over and above the National Building Code. We were developing things like raised-heel trusses light years before the municipalities were in our region. We found that we had mould in the corners of our houses, so how do we fix it? We add more insulation. We were putting R-40 in the middle of our attics and only R-10 at the end. Where is the cold spot going to be? Simple thinking like that got us to where we are with our spec package.
We had other issues such as sewers backing up in our crawl spaces and basements, so how do you prevent that? Well, you put a backwater valve in. It is simple thinking. We adopted that a full 12 years before the City of Saskatoon did in our province. That was in our spec package.
That's where we are with that. We have our own building code in Prince Albert Grand Council, and we've shared that with all First Nations who request it across Canada, and it's free. There's no point in trying to make money off of each other; none of us have money anyway.
That's our spec package. The other one I'm proud of is the Athabasca housing authority. We developed a housing authority which we never implemented, and we sort of ran not so much out of steam but more out of money than anything. It was fully developed. The federal government gave us a grant to put together a housing authority which would run all things housing in our First Nations all over the North. It would govern them, it would administer them, and it would qualify through that entity's credit rating, not through the bands.
We were trying to separate the First Nations housing from the day-to-day business of the First Nation. We were trying to make housing, as important as it is, stand alone. We were becoming quite successful. We got to the brink of it and we ran out of money, but it's ready to go at any time. We have that housing authority all developed and ready to go.
Vince wanted me to mention that we have a youth mould pilot project. We're teaching youth how to clean mould. We have the actual Tyvek suits and the booties and the gloves and the masks, and we teach them that. We put on one-week courses for youth in our region, and I know Vince is very proud of that.
Mr. Genereaux: It's through AANDC's social development program, taking youth off welfare rolls and giving them a tangible skill. We were able to train 12 people from various locations in PAGC, and we are going to continue to work with them, mentoring them through the following months. It's an ongoing thing that addresses the mould situation and creates more education. They take it home and talk to their people about it. So that is it, thank you.
Mr. Bighead: Thank you.
The Acting Chair: Thank you very much, gentlemen.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is my first time on the committee. I would like to commend both of our witnesses for the quality of their presentation. As a native of northern Quebec, Abitibi specifically, I am very aware of the housing problems Aboriginal communities, particularly Algonquin communities, face.
Even though we are talking some thirty years ago, the housing problems were quite severe back then. I just got back from a trip up north with Senator Sibbeston; we visited a number of villages, including Iqaluit, Rankin Inlet, Atlin and Whati. I was actually surprised to see that the housing situation had improved in those communities, with social and community-based housing having been built, including condo buildings and multiple dwellings.
I examined some past studies on the housing problem in Aboriginal communities. Please correct me if I am wrong, but on its face, the housing problem strikes me as being quite random from one community, province or territory to the next. Some communities are further along, and others are way behind schedule. The first question I would like to ask is whether it is the federal or provincial government that assumes most of the construction costs for single-family or multiple dwellings in Aboriginal communities, if indeed one or the other does?
[English]
Mr. Bighead: It is the federal government.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: What percentage of the cost does the federal government assume?
[English]
Mr. Genereaux: Maybe I could answer that. Usually, like Frank mentioned, we don't get a lot of funding for capital. We get $400,000 for every 1,000 people living on that community. They're using a lot of mortgage money through CMHC. For renovations it is a lot of federal money through CMHC's RRAP. Are you familiar with the RRAP program? They are forgivable loans, the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program. There are still a few houses being built through the band's minor capital, but not too many. It's probably about 10 per cent federal money.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: The department released a housing study in 2010 that highlights the tremendous amount of confusion around the roles and responsibilities of the federal and Aboriginal governments, as well as the extensive duplication of work and administrative problems. Are there still a lot of administrative hoops and red tape when it comes to reserve housing? Do most of the resources go towards red tape instead of housing construction? What is your take on that?
[English]
Mr. Bighead: If I can answer part of that one, I have to go back and say that I was a little surprised by the question about if the federal government is fully responsible for paying. I almost wanted to ask, "Who else would?" We have 70 per cent unemployment. The jobs that we have on-reserve pay minimum wage. These are people who would otherwise not qualify for mortgages. That one question could be a whole workshop on its own.
There's not a yes or no answer to that. That's why it left me speechless, and Vince took over and tried to answer to the best of his abilities, but there really is no one answer to that question. If the federal government is not paying for those houses, who is? That requires further dialogue. I don't know.
Really there is no economic development in the communities, in the reserves, to speak of. Some are lucky to have casinos, which is probably less than 1 per cent of the bands prosper on gambling, essentially. But we don't all have that privilege. It's not afforded to all of us.
We don't all have tobacco. We don't all have fishing. It's so diverse across Canada, and that question cannot be answered in this forum.
In short form it's the federal government, whether through band-based capital or social assistance dollars, yes.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: I certainly did not intend for my question to reflect badly on the federal government's involvement. I am very familiar with the economic situation plaguing Aboriginal reserves, and I think it is a shame that more is not done to fix it. I know that some reserves and communities benefit from mining development, and others from natural resource development. That is the case in Atlin, where a hydro-power dam was built, with electricity being sold to BC Power. Various forms of income do exist on reserves. Not all of them are fortunate enough to benefit from supplementary income, whether through royalties or economic development projects.
Given that housing construction in the communities falls under a federal program and the fact that duplication and red tape are issues, the point of my question was to figure out whether a program involving less bureaucracy could be put in place. The objective would be to do more with the money, putting as much of it as possible towards actual construction. That was what I was getting at, chief.
[English]
Mr. Bighead: Absolutely. I agree with the statement. That makes a lot of sense, and I am sure that would make sense to a lot of people because housing really is housing. You need health, education and housing to have a healthy community. Housing is too important a piece of that puzzle. We can't take it away. Education will fail; health will fail. Something else is going to fail if you take housing away, and, really, what does it have to do with whether a First Nation gets a not necessarily bright audit? Do we take housing away from them? If you are familiar with Seinfeld's the Soup Nazi, is that how we handle housing? If you don't get a proper audit, we will take housing away from you. Really, it has nothing to do with a lot of things. I agree with that statement, yes.
Senator Wallace: Thank you for the presentation, gentlemen. I listened to the information you have given us, and it is refreshing to hear the success that you have had. My sense of it is that your success has not been replicated in many areas, in many other First Nations communities across the country. I am just wondering what you believe is at the heart of your success. Why have you been able, within the Prince Albert Grand Council, in bringing together 12 First Nation members, to achieve this? How or why have you been able to do it when it seems other First Nations communities in other provinces have not been able to do that?
Mr. Bighead: I think mainly longevity because with us having been there for so many years and keeping pecking at them, they will give up sooner or later. Our department has been in existence a long time, so you get continuity with long-serving staff. I have no choice but to take a lot of that credit — not all of it but a lot of the credit — on behalf of our department. Not for myself but for our department and the people who came before me, who had the vision of what they wanted in the future and how they were going to meet those ends.
I was lucky enough to have joined an organization that was in existence before my time. It became quite successful because we don't dictate to the people that we serve. When we have a code that needs to be changed in our spec package, we will meet in a setting like this and discuss it, and then we will vote on it. It is not any one person dictating to anybody, "This shall be the law." No, it is all negotiated.
Senator Wallace: At the same time, though, there must be very strong leadership, I would think, within the grand council, that is generally supported. Not in each and every issue, but it usually does come down, with any success, to having strong leadership. My sense is you have that within the Prince Albert Grand Council.
Mr. Bighead: Yes, and leadership at the grand council that recognizes the importance of housing. Also, I am lucky enough to work for a tribal council that is so large and encompassing. We have many departments, so we can shift money around to where it is most important or most needed. That is what makes it successful, too.
Senator Wallace: Within each of your 12 First Nation members and the reserves they represent, would there be detailed assessments for the housing needs of each of those reserves so that you have got a base to start from, knowing exactly what it is you have to address, what those needs are? Would that exist in each of the 12?
Mr. Bighead: Each of those 4,000-plus houses we have been in once in the past three years, so we have a running housing stock on computer. You could walk up to our office or phone me and say, "How many houses have major mould problems or minor mould problems or medium mould problems? We punch a few computer keys, and we print out the report for you and tell you which houses have them, which houses have a crumbling foundation, which houses have flooding issues. Any of those questions we can answer in five minutes. So we run a continuous housing stock.
Senator Wallace: Would you also, though, have detailed plans that show what the housing needs are? Then you develop a plan to address that but starting with that base to know what it is, how many housing units are needed and what types of housing units are needed in each reserve. Does that type of detailed assessment exist?
Mr. Genereaux: We work with the First Nations themselves on their five-year plans, so those numbers come directly from our housing inventory database. It is a general condition report, and it also has demographics on there. So we were updating the populations based on questionnaires, in combination with their membership clerk. From there, they can come up with their housing needs assessments.
Usually about 25 per cent of their people are waiting for a house on-reserve in our area.
Senator Wallace: Okay. Time for one more, chair?
The Acting Chair: Yes, go ahead.
Senator Wallace: You mentioned building development bylaws on each of the reserves, and, of course, that will establish the framework and the standards for construction that you have worked very hard to bring to the fore. I am just wondering, of the 12 First Nation members make up the tribal council, how many of those would have detailed building construction bylaws in place?
Mr. Genereaux: Not a lot. Lac La Ronge Indian Band, our biggest band, has a very well-established housing department, a large staff, and policies, and they are into home ownership as well, which is one of the reasons we got into the building permit strategy. Other than them, not a lot. So we needed some structure in there, something more professional to deal with what is coming down the line, as we see CMHC asking for more in the way of declarations that the houses are being built to code. It is putting a lot of pressure on us inspectors in terms of liability insurance. We are going to be needing errors and omissions insurance, and we are going to be signing those declarations. It is opening us up to a lot of liability. CMHC is kind of washing their hands of that area, and, without consultation, I should add, this has happened. It is a little bit off topic but kind of ties in.
This is another reason why we got into our building permit strategy. We want our own system where people come to us instead to prove that we are meeting code. That is what the government was looking for. I hope they accept our building permit strategy as part of it.
Senator Wallace: That building permit strategy really starts, though, with the chiefs and councils, does it not, in each of the reserves? They would obviously have to approve it?
Mr. Genereaux: It is tied into the existing zoning bylaws they have. It is the building part that is the missing piece here.
Senator Wallace: Right.
Mr. Genereaux: So we have worked on this for over two years now with the First Nations National Building Officers Association; they had an excellent template that we were able to follow. It is easily adaptable because we, as a tribal council, have had those processes in place. We are just formalizing it now.
Senator Wallace: Good. Thank you very much. It is helpful.
Senator Sibbeston: When you start off with the situation where you say that you don't have poor-quality houses and that you build modest houses, that's a pretty good start, as it were. I was interested to know how many houses are built a year and how much renovation is actually being done. I recognize you said since 1984 there have not been additional monies. I take it that each individual band is responsible for its own housing construction and so forth and you provide the service of inspection. Can you talk about that?
Mr. Genereaux: It's not a lot. Our new housing from CMHC was 27 houses last year and probably about the same this year. It has dropped over the years, and that goes hand and hand with section 95 cuts. We do most of the renovations through RRAP. We're pretty aggressive at PAGC. We have a large staff, we're able to grab the surplus that comes up, and so we take maybe a third of the provincial budget in RRAP, which is about 70 units, averaging $19,000 forgivable. Then the bands themselves use capital to renovate a number of houses about the same amount as RRAP would do, so it's not a lot.
Mr. Bighead: Vince is an old housing guy who has a lot of acronyms. I hope you understand him. He's talking about section 95 housing, often referred to as CMHC housing, and RRAP is Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program, which we administer too.
By the way, I forgot to mention, too, that we were the first delivery agent in Western Canada for EnerGuide. We are into that, as well as Energuide 80 housing and R-2000. We're doing all of that already.
Senator Sibbeston: Are some of the First Nations able to provide their own funding, put some funding into housing for their members? How many bands in your area are able to do that, if any?
Mr. Bighead: I would venture to say that the percentage would probably be less than 10 per cent. When you say their own funding, do you mean their own monies from the federal government?
Senator Sibbeston: They're own source that they would have made.
Mr. Bighead: In Saskatchewan we have SIGA, the Saskatchewan Indian Gaming Authority. Any revenues that come from our four casinos are split up amongst the 74 bands. They get portions of that revenue, and most of them dedicate that to housing. Yes, there are small pots like this that do come up that we dedicate to housing, but those are not very large chunks of money. Whatever little we can with economic development, yes, we do contribute.
Senator Sibbeston: You say that there are some communities that have been suspended from the housing programs. What happens when they have been suspended?
Mr. Bighead: With both AANDC and Canada Mortgage and Housing, you need to pass the threshold of 60-point rating system. It's between 60 and 100. If you're under the 60 you don't qualify, either on the AANDC side or the CMHC side. They both have to qualify you in order for you to qualify for a mortgage in our First Nations in Saskatchewan. At any given time, CMHC may have you at 89, but AANDC may have you at 59, so you won't qualify. Both of them have to be over that 60-point rating scale. I'm not sure what is involved with the rating scale, but that is how it works in Saskatchewan.
Mr. Genereaux: To add to that, First Nations are walking a tightrope most of the time. We've mentioned the overcrowding that's happening there. It puts a strain on their existing stock. As soon as they fall behind in one area they fall behind in section 95 as well. It's hard to get those ratings up. Year after year their audits are missing something, or they've taken out of the replacement reserve. It's supposed to be fully funded over the life of the projects. They dip into that sometimes to handle emergencies or maintenance or whatever. It's such a fine tightrope that where if you're not perfect you're going to be left behind for 15 or 20 years, like I said. That's the way I can explain it.
AANDC, by the way, is out of 50, and CMHC is out of 100. If you don't achieve 30 for AANDC you get a thumbs-down. We usually meet with them and either/or like this or both down. You're not going to get any housing even if you have one thumb down.
The Acting Chair: To clarify Senator Sibbeston's question, you've got 2 out of your 12 that are in that situation or more often than not in that situation; is that right?
Mr. Genereaux: This year we have 3 that qualify outright and 2 are ineligible because they have outstanding projects, but they're at 95 per cent. The deadline is September, so I think they will finish their project on time and there will be 5 out of the 12.
Mr. Bighead: If at best 100 per cent of our communities qualified for section 95, Vince mentioned that we do build on average 27 units a year. We have 12 First Nations but 27 communities that we represent. At best, they'd be building one house. That's something to keep in mind.
Senator Meredith: Thank you, gentlemen, for your presentation. I sat here and I listened intently to your presentation and I want to congratulate you on your successes. We often hear of the witnesses who come before us and obviously we know there are serious issues and problems, but they tend to just harp on that so I want to congratulate you. Again, you talk about longevity, consistency and wanting to see improvement take place within your 12 bands with the Prince Albert Grand Council. I want to congratulate you for that. I know that in any organization it's never easy to try to convince individuals and change their minds as to progress. Some folks stand in the way of progress at times.
What's alarming to me, though, is the overcrowding. Mr. Bighead mentioned that without proper housing that affects health and education. As a youth advocate in the city of Toronto, I'm faced with different families coming to me and speaking to me about issues of social housing and four members in a two-bedroom home. That is problematic. This is 8.5, and you're talking about individuals taking shifts to sleep. In this 21st century it is unconscionable that we have Canadians living in these kinds of conditions.
What proposals have you put forward to Aboriginal Affairs to address this particular concern? I see the quality of life for the young people and seniors being considerably diminished in this overcrowding situation. What has been the response? What strategies have you taken? What proposals have you put forward to say that we need to address this critical situation here as a quality of life for our First Nations people being considerably diminished.
I'm curious to find out what has been done from your Prince Albert Grand Council to Aboriginal Affairs and what has been their response.
Mr. Bighead: We provide 100 per cent of the training that would be required to live in a house, build a house and run a house. That's the part we've done. I'm not sure if we're in the position to be negotiating with the federal government. We're not politicians; we're technicians. We still have to mind our manners around our bosses. There are certain roles set out for all people who work within the organization.
There are times we speak directly with certain members of the federal government that we've gotten to know over the years. We have what I wouldn't call a hierarchy, but there are bosses we have to keep informed as to what's going on, and they have a role to play as politicians to lobby for us. We give them the information that's provided but, like I said, 100 per cent of the training or support for the programs is provided by us, for the First Nations that we represent.
Essentially we'll go to the ends of the world for them, but dealing directly with the federal government is sometimes not there. But we try to work together and will provide that information to anybody who will lobby for us.
Senator Meredith: What proposals have you been made aware of, and what responses have there been?
Mr. Genereaux: I can answer that one. We have a number of tribal councils in Saskatchewan, and independent communities as well, but we work a lot with the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations. I used to be the housing director there for a period of time. And we were into negotiating with the provincial government on accessing revenue sharing of gaming dollars. We proposed housing equity funds and revolving loan funds so that members of any community could get into home ownership, either on- or off-reserve. We also, at the end of the last fiscal year, were into HaaB, which stands for Housing as a Business, through AANDC. It's special initiative funding.
However, with the cuts we lost our FSIN housing director and now we're at a standstill on all these discussions, because Kevin McLeod was organizing all this for the tribal councils. We had potential to produce a lot of houses but, like Frank said, we don't have any negotiating powers other than that. We're kind of dictated to on our capital dollars, our CMHC subsidy dollars. Other than those, there's not a lot.
Senator Meredith: You mentioned, Mr. Bighead, the flood mitigation. We've heard the stories and seen that every April there are floods. What has been done to either move these communities to higher ground, work in collaboration with the provinces to ensure that homes are not flooded out, causing further expenses of moving or relocating individuals for months at a time until the floodwaters cease? What's the game plan? What's the strategy, in terms of these communities being relocated to higher ground so they're not consistently experiencing this problem every year?
Mr. Bighead: Easier said than done. We have communities that are on the flood plain. Definitely one of them has hills beside it. I'm not sure that the will is there. For the elders, it is their historic hunting grounds. That's where they collected food for sustenance, so it is a historic place, this one community I'm talking about. It's not so easy to say, "Why don't you just move up the hill?" Those are their historic lands.
Plus, what is the process by which AANDC approves First Nations just to move somewhere else and declare that a reserve? I'm sure it's a long process. It's not something that you can just say that we had this reserve but now we have this reserve. It is Crown land.
I'm not cognizant of how that process works. I'm sure it would be a long process, and again it would be through years of negotiation. You can't just take a community and transplant it, because you get the reserve and the traditional lands with it.
Again, it's not just a yes or no question. It makes sense, but we are doing everything in our powers, including designing homes that are not necessarily waterproof but high and dry. We're doing a lot of drainage as part of our mitigation. We've built dikes around communities. We have negotiated with the Saskatchewan Watershed Authority. Some of our communities are flooded out by mountain runoff, it just comes through. In Saskatchewan it comes through Lake Diefenbaker, and then they control the levels based on how much water farmlands are going to require, and our reserves at the end are sometimes dependent on how dry the air or the ground is where they're doing the farming in the rest of the province. We become casualties of that decision, sometimes.
This year we've been lucky, we haven't had much flooding. We've had some flooding of roads, but it's in one community. In the past we've had five communities all flooded at the same time.
It is getting better, but again we've put in plans and worked with the federal government to do major diking and drainage projects.
Senator Meredith: You mentioned not having own-source revenues in these 12 bands. Has there been a plan to look at what resources you have and how to attract potential investors to come in and help you extract what you have in order to generate the resources necessary to pump into your housing and infrastructure?
Mr. Bighead: I'll use our three Athabasca bands as an example. They've been meeting with all the mines, COGEMA Cameco, everybody who is mining in northern Saskatchewan. They've been working out agreements to help with the housing situation, the education situation and all areas in the North. They've been creating partnerships with our First Nations in development corporations, economic development ideas, hotels, motels, catering services, all of these that come along, even airline services. So housing is becoming a part of that negotiation, too.
It is happening but, again, geographic location always comes into play every time you start talking about economic development. Only 3 of our 27 communities have mines in their backyard.
What else are we doing? Some of our people are farming. Historically we've had the people who have always been farming, the small farmers. We have people who work out of the communities and qualify for mortgages. We have people who work in the mines and people who work in Fort McMurray in the oil patch, so they're qualifying for mortgages.
Not all of them are getting the service that they require when it comes to mortgages, but we're trying. What makes it hard for mortgages in our communities is that the First Nation is required to co-sign or backstop the loans. Not many First Nations are willing to go that route. Why would you risk your future generations for one or two mortgages?
Senator Meredith: Expand on that a little bit for me. You mentioned earlier that you are developing your home ownership program. Talk to us a little bit about that and how that is different from what CMHC and the First Nations Market Housing Fund are proposing.
Mr. Bighead: I will use the Lac la Ronge Indian Band as a prime example of home ownership. In Saskatchewan they are definitely the clear leaders in this area. It's more about taking responsibility from the Indian government for that house and giving it to the people. They're not in it to make a profit off the house. They're in it more to make people self-sustaining and self-empowered, to give them pride in their homes.
For instance, we evaluated the houses that the people were interested in purchasing. If they were beyond a certain age we could sell them for as little as $5,000. Depending on what kind of shape the house was in, we would mix and match programs, like the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program, and bring it to a certain level before we hand it over to the people so they have a fresh start. So then they sign an agreement saying, "No, I will not go bug the band office for a stove element." It's 100 per cent their responsibility from that day forward. That's the beauty of home ownership, in our view.
There are people who are building very fancy houses in our communities on lakeshores. We're starting to build up a market. We don't have a market yet. It takes years to develop a market. I often wonder about the misnomer; they call it market-based housing. How can you call it market-based housing when you don't have a market yet? So we're starting. It's only the beginnings. It looks a lot better for the future.
Senator Beyak: Thank you very much, gentlemen. I value your long experience on this very important issue and your knowledge. Like Senator Boisvenu, my question will be positive and not critical. When you sit down together with your other counterparts across the country, and you talk about the inequities from province to province and reserve to reserve, do we need a national audit that looks at all the income from reserves, from casinos, from mining, from fishing, and the expenditures that are going out from some of the reserves, to kind of equalize it? If you have any personal thoughts or suggestions on that, I would appreciate them. Canadians, Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal, have seen decades of taxpayer dollars going into this important issue and never any positive solutions. Any comments you have I would value.
Mr. Bighead: I would like to make a comment before I hand it over to Vince. We talk about geographic location as being critical to everything. We have many First Nations across Canada to whom we have given awards at national conferences, but I sometimes go back and think to myself, what if I took that band and I put them in Fond-du-Lac in northern Saskatchewan, how well would they survive there? It always comes back to that question for me.
Going back to your comment about equity and equal laws, definitely, I agree that we have to have an audit. We complain about — I don't know how true it is, we're in the Prairies, we're in the boonies out there — we complain in the Prairies about people in Ottawa's back door getting all the programs and trying them out. I don't know how true that is, but I like complaining as well as the next person.
Definitely, we do need an audit. At one time I was even a firm believer in two streams of housing, one for the treaty beliefs and one for the non-treaty beliefs, because maybe that's the way we need to go. It's conflicting. Every time we talk about housing, when we go to a setting like this, I'm talking about treaties; the next community in the province next to me is not talking about treaties, they're talking about what a treaty has done for me. That's a comment I've heard before, which drove me nuts.
Yes, we do need more dialogue on that.
Mr. Genereaux: AANDC national office already divide up our capital funding based on need, and that changed about 15 years ago, I believe, from population-based allocations. Saskatchewan and the Prairies were beneficiaries of that, because our need was greater than, let's say, Quebec or Ontario. No one likes their money being scooped up on them. There's kind of an audit that takes place anyways at the national office. I just wanted to add that.
Senator Moore: You mentioned the Saskatchewan Indian Gaming Authority and that the revenue is split among 74 bands. Most of the bands put those funds towards housing. What is the total amount that is available for distribution, do you know?
Mr. Bighead: That is a good question.
Senator Moore: I know.
Mr. Bighead: Having said that, the province does take their 63 per cent or whatever it is off there first.
Senator Moore: What per cent do they take?
Mr. Bighead: They take 63 per cent. Don't quote me on the numbers. That's from what I've read.
Senator Moore: We've got 37 per cent left then to go. Do you know what the approximate numbers are?
Mr. Bighead: I think the First Nations may get 24.
Mr. Genereaux: They've been negotiating for an additional $16 million, and that was the difference between 25 per cent and 37.5 per cent, I believe. I think they're only getting 25 per cent of the revenue now, and they also get 25 per cent of the profits from the Regina and Moose Jaw casinos. To my best understanding, that's what it is.
Senator Moore: How much would the Prince Albert Grand Council get?
Mr. Genereaux: About a third.
Mr. Bighead: Of what?
Mr. Genereaux: I think it's 25.
Senator Moore: Are you getting hundreds of thousands or millions?
Mr. Genereaux: We would have to do the math because the difference between 25 and 37 is $16 million.
Senator Moore: The range is what? The 25 would give you how much and 37.5 would give you how much?
Mr. Bighead: It would have been easier to say I don't know.
Senator Moore: I know, but somebody knows.
Mr. Bighead: Vince and I don't know, honest.
Senator Moore: What is the sharing formula? Is it per capita or is it need?
Mr. Genereaux: I think we're the wrong people to ask that question of.
Senator Moore: You know that your main energy and your prime concern is housing, so I would think you two gentlemen would be right in there digging for funding for your main area of concern activity.
Mr. Genereaux: That's usually done by our leaders, our executive.
Senator Moore: But you must be pushing them.
Mr. Bighead: We can put in proposals and then a board of governors of that group would go through it. Yes, we can put proposals in, and the average First Nation member within our catchment area as well.
Senator Moore: I thought we might have some numbers here that might be able to help.
Mr. Bighead: We apologize for not being able to provide you with the numbers.
Senator Moore: Maybe you should ask the leaders, whoever is doing this negotiating, how big the pie is they are trying to carve up. What was this rating system? The James Smith Cree Nation has been disqualified for 15 years. What is the rating based on? Are they ever going to be able to catch up and, if so, what will they have to do?
Mr. Genereaux: There is good news this year. They do qualify. They brought up their audit, number one; they brought up their replacement reserve, it's fully funded, and their rent collection is there. They have to report on the rent. It's called a minimum revenue contribution. It's fully funded. They usually fund the MRC — minimum revenue contribution — through rent collection. Most of that is from social services, but the problem has been collecting from the working people. So they brought up their percentages to the point where their points also came up.
Senator Moore: You've got 12 bands within your council. Is rent paid by occupants of those homes in each of those bands or in some of them?
Mr. Genereaux: They're tied into section 95 mortgages. Social services only pays for units attached to section 95 mortgages. That's how it works on the band, too. There's no universal shelter.
Senator Moore: I understand. Have you or your council done an inventory of that, so you know whether there might be other possible monies coming in that you can use to budget for maintenance?
Mr. Genereaux: Can I add something to this?
Senator Moore: Sure.
Mr. Genereaux: In 1996, at the time of the new housing policy, I did 11 proposals for how to improve their housing on-reserve, and the biggest part of our proposal was universal shelter. We were going to have a rental regime right across the board, regardless of whether you had a mortgage or not.
Senator Moore: Within our council, all 12?
Mr. Genereaux: This was in Alberta, actually. We were promised that shelter allowance from AANDC but when the time came they said they had no money. Since that time, all of our housing plans have basically struggled to keep up.
In my opinion, if AANDC were to provide rent allowances, shelter allowances to eligible people in the community, as they do in Saskatoon or Regina, let's say, we would have money to work with. It's discriminatory what is happening now because universal shelter is accepted in three areas right now: B.C., Quebec and the Maritimes, I believe. So it's inconsistent.
Senator Moore: Yes.
Mr. Bighead, when you discuss these situations with the various bands, as you said, some are treaty driven. They say, "No, it has to be looked after by the feds," and others say, "No, we are prepared to work on another type of arrangement." You mentioned that you've got specifications over and above the national building code. All 12 bands sign on for that?
Mr. Bighead: Yes. We have 100 per cent buy in on that. The national building code was developed in southern Ontario, by the way, and it was never meant to be a transportable document. If you do degree days and do some math and science behind the design of houses, there is a formula called the degree days. You add up how much insulation you are supposed to have in the attic and all that kind of stuff. In our zone, we are supposed to have R-55. Back in the day, the national building code used to call for R-40. They don't even call for insulation anymore. The building code does not even mention it. All they say is to keep your house above freezing, so how you get it there is up to you, I guess.
Senator Moore: You mentioned that, as of April 1, there were cuts to the advisory services, and you lost two jobs. So you made an earlier comment that we must lose something to gain something. What did you gain?
Mr. Bighead: When we lost that?
Senator Moore: Yes.
Mr. Bighead: It was meant for when there is a program announced, say the national water strategy. There was $300 million to bring up water quality. I sort of cringed when I heard that. What are we going to lose for $300 million? We are going to do residential school settlements for X amount of dollars, but we're going to cut back all of your advisory services nationally. Every time there is something happening at the Ottawa level, something else has to be taken away because, if you don't add any money to the pot, it's all got to move around in there somehow.
Senator Moore: Yes, I understand.
Mr. Bighead: Every time there is a benefit somewhere, something else is being taken away. Housing has been like that historically, ever since I have been involved for the last 34 years. You become jaded, I guess, when you've seen this so many times over the years.
Senator Moore: I hope you don't lose your optimism because you are valuable people.
Mr. Bighead: Thank you very much.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: Again, I would like to commend you for all your hard work on this issue. One of the main things I took from your presentation was that you place a lot of focus on education. I also noted that the problem varies greatly between the Northwest Territories, the Yukon and Nunavik, as I mentioned earlier. There, the government opted to give a considerable amount of autonomy to those territories. And since the 2000s, they have acquired significant autonomy, and economic progress as well as considerable development has been noted.
You have been dealing with the housing problem for 30 years now. As for me, I have been working closely with the government, especially in Quebec, for about 40 years, so I have seen the changes over time. The housing issue seems to be a permanent one in Aboriginal communities. Despite the fact that some $303 million is invested in the system, the situation does not appear to be getting any better and is even getting worse, in some cases.
It is clear that the shifting demographics in Aboriginal communities pose a real challenge for them. The change in demographic distribution is much greater in your communities than in non-Aboriginal ones.
I would like to share a perspective, if I may. Between now and 2020 or 2030, the chosen approach may not necessarily be to allocate more resources but to do things differently. That is why I mentioned the reports that point to considerable duplication and red tape.
Given your 30 years of experience in the field, I would like to know how you think existing mechanisms or practices could be changed to do things differently in a way that really deliver results, rather than increasing resources. Drawing on your experience, you could tell us what changes to the system would allow us to fix the housing problem facing communities in the medium or long term. This problem is nearly 40 years old.
[English]
Mr. Genereaux: Two approaches: We are always going to have social housing, but the market housing is growing. That's a big reason why we got into our building permit strategy, to get ready for that. In my opinion, we have the working people there now who can afford their own houses. They will become the role models of the future. The people are going to look up to those working people and the way they look after their own houses. It's going to add a lot of inventory, especially with the First Nations Market Housing Fund that's come up and is growing.
We can't forget about the social side as well. Like I said, there are people in the eastern sector who are not leaving. They are going to rely on the social services, but, if we do it in a fair and equitable manner, as they do in municipalities or cities, the universal shelter assistance has to be there as well so that we have money to work with to improve the housing situation. As it is now, we're going to continue to slide unless we're perfect, and not too many of the bands are perfect out there. The ones that do well have some own-source revenue to work with. Like Frank said, it's the minority.
Mr. Bighead: For many years, we have been going to workshops where Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and AANDC have provided us with information and trained us. I think it's time to turn that around, and we need to train them, the bureaucracies, to have an idea of how life on reserve is. There is a social condition that you are addressing too that's way beyond the scope of housing but still has to be addressed. There are addictions that we deal with constantly out there, so there is a lot more than just building a house and handing over the keys. It took hundreds of years for that social condition to develop. We are getting better, but we still have some work to do in that area. Bylaws you can have until you're blue in the face. The truth of the matter is that, if somebody does not adhere to the bylaw, who is going to go and evict that person? That person is not even identified yet. What politician would walk up to their neighbours or to one of their constituents' houses and evict them? You wouldn't be a politician very long. What RCMP in any of our communities is going to go and evict anybody? It's unheard of because they have to live in that community too. Those are things that we need to deal with alongside just how well we build a house, and it's probably more important than how well we build the house. So there are a lot of issues associated with it, and, in the three hours or two hours that we sit here — granted, you've listened to many people before us — there is a lot to discuss. We've gone too long without discussing. That's why I welcome this opportunity, and it was exciting for me to be here and have a piece to say. I very much welcomed it.
The Acting Chair: You said it well, sir.
Senator Meredith: Thank you, gentlemen, for coming today and giving us some facts as to what the conditions are. Mr. Bighead, you speak of the social issues that are still happening on First Nations reserves, and it's quite troubling and something that we need to talk about. More importantly, we need to do something about it in collaboration. So that's another discussion, but it does have implications for the conditions that folks are living under, especially the housing and this sense of hopelessness that exists. That's why a lot of these young people are being sort of pulled away into negative behaviours. The sense of life expectancy is shorter, and that shouldn't be. So we need to have that discussion. We need to begin to put some strategies in place to address these issues.
One of the things I want to go back to is the quality of housing. The Regional Longitudinal Health Survey said that 37 per cent of First Nations homes require major repairs, 34 per cent minor repairs and 29 per cent regular maintenance. Fifty-one per cent of adults reported mould. You mentioned training young people on mould and removing mould from their homes. I wish it was something else that you were training them on. It's not something that they should be doing given the fact that homes need to be built properly, and they haven't been done. In terms of repairs, you talk about the RAAP program. What is the average cost of the repairs on these particular homes? For example, is it $1,500 or $2,000 to do the repairs, and, if the funds run out, are there some things that are left undone? When do they get repaired?
Mr. Genereaux: We have three regions in the province, in most parts of Canada. We have the south, the central and the remote. It goes hand in hand with what we get for RAAP — $16,000 for the south, $19,000 for central and $23,750 for the remote communities. It's usually around that area — by coincidence most of the time — but we try to work it in so that they don't have to put in a lot of equity. We don't concentrate on aesthetics. We concentrate on what they most need, and, if it goes over, then it's a RAAP top-up from AANDC capital or their own money. They are averaging what they get from CMHC, and that includes capital.
Mr. Bighead: To start with our own statistics: $5,000 and under was minor; $10,000 and under was medium; $10,000 and over was major. Those are the numbers we've stayed with. Are we still at those numbers, or are we at $15,000 now for major?
Mr. Genereaux: For major, we are still over $10,000.
Mr. Bighead: So those are essentially the numbers we have been using for the last 18 years or so, and we have never changed them. They still work.
There is another issue too. We discussed this in our report here. Not everybody is doing statistics the same across Canada. Everybody is going to make it look worse than it is when you have people competing for the same pot of money. So there is no standard as to how you do statistics. It's not the same across Canada either.
The Acting Chair: We have, folks, about seven minutes and two senators who want to ask questions, so, if you're all right, Senator Meredith, we'll move to —
Senator Meredith: That's fine. My last question would have been: Once the home is turned over, who is responsible? Is it the chief and council? Is it the occupant? Who is responsible for that home? Because we have heard that back and forth: "Well, it's not my home, so I don't really have to do anything to it." So, if you could just quickly —
Mr. Bighead: Within the last year, the federal government said to the chiefs across Canada, "You are now the authority having jurisdiction." Essentially, Vince and I are at arm's length for those authorities having that jurisdiction. We are the arm of the chief. We are doing the work for them. I guess you can, in a roundabout way, say that, indirectly, we are the authority having jurisdiction but with no bylaws. There is always that "but" in there.
Mr. Genereaux: The owner is the band, but they each have their responsibilities through policy. The tenant has their mandatory items that they have to look after, and that includes home maintenance. But the band generally is the owner unless they have that home ownership program.
The Acting Chair: Thank you. Senator Moore?
Senator Moore: Mr. Bighead, you are a certified level 1 building inspector, it says here, and Mr. Genereaux, you are the head building inspector for the Prince Albert Grand Council. Does that permit you to qualify and inspect multi-units, like an apartment building, as well?
Mr. Bighead: Part 9 and small buildings. Part 9 of the National Building Code and private dwellings and small buildings.
Senator Moore: Could you do a three or four-unit apartment?
Mr. Bighead: Individual apartments, yes.
Senator Moore: Are there any young people, men or women, being trained as building inspectors within your 12 bands?
Mr. Bighead: No.
Senator Moore: It would be an opportunity.
Mr. Bighead: There is no money in it.
Senator Moore: How do you mean?
Mr. Bighead: Where would you make money from? I guess that's what it is. This is another thing that's different. Each province is different in who does the inspections. Alberta has individual inspectors, and Manitoba is a cross between individuals and tribal councils. In Saskatchewan, we're 100 per cent tribal council inspectors, so that's a difference too. Every region is different.
The closest one to us is Ontario, actually, Keith Maracle and his group.
Senator Moore: Yes, he's been before us. He's very good.
Mr. Bighead: They are tribal-council based. So the jobs are few and far between, and a First Nation has very little money to hire anybody, build a house, maybe keep a skeleton staff, one maintenance and one administrator on staff. There is no money to pay an inspector. You could train them to leave the community, but why would you do that? There would be no economic investment in that.
Senator Moore: With the new constructions and the various grades of repair and maintenance, I just thought there would be an opportunity there. Okay.
Mr. Bighead: There is a lot of opportunity for work but no opportunity for pay.
Senator Moore: Thank you.
The Acting Chair: Senator Beyak, last question.
Senator Beyak: Thank you very much for your suggestion for a broader discussion on this issue. I too live in the boonies, northwestern, Ontario, as some people call it, and I love my home as you do. I talk to the young people, the women, the girls and boys, and there is a bigger issue to them — the malls, the "real world" they call it all the time, the nail salons, the hair dressers. They want to be part of us and us of you, but assimilation is a horrible word that none of us wants to talk about. Is there a better way, in your personal opinion, for us all to cooperate as Canadians to share the resources, to find a solution, as Senator Boisvenu said, instead of just always more money to problems that never seem to be solved? Do you discuss that, and would you be able to share your thoughts? Thank you.
Mr. Bighead: Yes, I do agree that there are many problems we can solve without money, and, in fact we were talking about our introductions, how we introduce ourselves. I have never been in this setting. I suggested to Vince and Roxanne that I welcome you as my fellow treaty people, I guess. That is, a treaty is between two people. It's not only one person.
Yes, I definitely agree that a lot can be done. Volunteerism is not so prevalent anymore. When I was growing up, I coached hockey. I coached soccer and all of these things. Now, people are writing down how much time they put in. The world is different. The world has changed.
So yes, there is definitely a lot more that we could be doing, and sometimes our jobs take precedence over our work.
Senator Beyak: Thank you very much.
Mr. Bighead: You're very welcome.
The Acting Chair: Gentlemen, with that, we'll bring things to a close. I want to thank you, on behalf of everyone here, for your candid and clear and very dignified presentation. As many senators said, I want to commend you on the success that you have achieved in your organization, the discipline and rigour that you exemplify around the issue of managing housing. You are an inspiration to many and an example that this committee sees very clearly as something that we want to highlight.
We also heard you, and want to assure you we heard you, with respect to your straightforward testimony around capital and operating resources. It's wonderful to have a great car, but, if you don't have any fuel for it, it's a problem. We want you to know that we heard that in addition to everything else that we discussed today. So thank you again for your time, and we stand adjourned.
(The committee adjourned.)