Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 10 - Evidence - December 3, 2014
OTTAWA, Wednesday, December 3, 2014
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:50 p.m., in public, to study challenges relating to First Nations infrastructure on reserves; and in camera for the consideration of a draft agenda to study challenges relating to First Nations infrastructure on reserves.
Senator Dennis Glen Patterson (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: I would like to call this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples to order and to welcome all honourable senators and members of the public who may be watching this via CPAC, on the web or who may be in this room.
My name is Dennis Patterson from Nunavut, and I have the honour of chairing the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples.
Our mandate is to examine proposed legislation and matters relating to the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada generally. This evening, we're hearing testimony on a specific order of reference authorizing us to examine and report on the challenges and potential solutions relating to infrastructure on reserves, including: housing, community infrastructure and innovative opportunities for financing and more effective collaborative strategies. We have completed our hearings on housing and are now focusing our study on infrastructure.
Before proceeding to the testimony and welcoming our witness tonight, I would ask honourable colleagues to please introduce themselves.
Senator Moore: Wilfred Moore, Nova Scotia.
Senator Sibbeston: Nick Sibbeston, Northwest Territories.
Senator Dyck: Lillian Dyck, deputy chair of the Aboriginal Peoples Committee, from Saskatchewan.
Senator Wallace: John Wallace, New Brunswick.
Senator Beyak: Lynn Beyak, Ontario.
Senator Enverga: Tobias Enverga, Ontario.
Senator Greene Raine: Nancy Greene Raine, British Columbia.
Senator Tannas: Scott Tannas, Alberta.
The Chair: Members of the committee, I know you will help me to welcome our witness tonight from the Swan Lake First Nation, Mr. Desmond Gould. We look forward to your presentation, followed by thoughtful questions afterwards. Please proceed.
Desmond Gould, Director of Operations, Swan Lake First Nation: Thanks for having me here today. Our Chief Francine Meeches sends her regrets. She was unable to make the trip today.
Saying I'm from Swan Lake, I can accept because I have worked for Swan Lake in various capacities over the last 19 years. I was the RCMP officer for 20 years in the latter part of my career when I policed Swan Lake. I had the opportunity to join their team after an unfortunate accident and I retired when I couldn't perform general duties any further. I joined the Swan Lake team in 2005 and have acted as their Director of Operations since. I am a status Indian from the Pinaymootang First Nation. I speak Ojibwa. Pinaymootang is approximately four hours north of Swan Lake.
Swan Lake is a community with a membership of about 1,500 on- and off-reserve members. On reserve there are about 650 residents. We deliver various services to them on a daily basis. Swan Lake consists of a housing stock of approximately 140 homes. I was thinking of our closed and our open systems in relation to waterworks. We have various infrastructures within the community, in particular our band office, which was constructed recently, a lot of it with our own-source revenues. We have a new health centre and an eight-plex that houses 55-plus. We have since built a five-unit hotel, which we're going to use for employees of the newly built casino on the First Nations. It's not ours but is owned by all 64 First Nations of Manitoba with shared revenues. It is housed on 20 acres of Swan Lake property at the Carberry lands.
Swan Lake consists of four parcels of property. They have 6,400 acres at the Carberry lands and 40 acres adjacent to Headingley, which is considered somewhat of an urban reserve. We have the bigger parcel, the home reserve, with several sections of land, and a smaller section closer to the Portage area. The most recent parcels of land were purchased through the additions to reserve process through the years, which took several years.
I was a police officer when I started there in 1995. I believe it was around that time they purchased the land in Headingley — 26 acres adjacent to Bloomberg Golf Course adjacent to the city of Winnipeg. The administration at the time also purchased 6,400 acres of farmland, approximately 45 minutes northwest of the home community. That's where we just completed a couple of ventures in relation to economic development. We built water and waste water infrastructure, which cost in the millions, for the purpose of housing economic opportunities in that area.
First and foremost, as I indicated earlier, is the casino, known as the Sand Hills Casino, is now situated on those lands and uses the facilities. The casino presently employs approximately 140 people, and they're not all from Swan Lake First Nation. A few people from Swan Lake work there, but it brings in several players from the surrounding communities for employment and activity, which also enhances the economic development of not only Swan Lake but also the smaller communities of Carberry, Glenboro, et cetera — it brings people in from afar.
Swan Lake has moved forward in that they hold their heads high and are proud of what they have established in a few years. When I started with Swan Lake in 2005, like a lot of First Nations, there were trials and tribulations. Swan Lake was sitting with a debt of $2.8 million — a community that had little or no own-source revenues of any sort to get them out of that position they were in financially.
That was one of the things with their financial management plan that they came to in relation to identifying the debt. You can have all the financial management plans in the world, and they're as good as this paper I'm writing on. If you don't act on them, that's as good as they're worth.
We were able to take this financial management plan; we had to make some hard decisions in regard to our finances, with regard to staffing issues and with regard to programs. We had to learn to live within our means.
First and foremost, I identify our deficits. Living within the contribution agreements, the arrangements assigned to us by the various parties — the government, maybe, Aboriginal Affairs or the First Nation and health branch — but yet identifying our own source revenues assisted us to get out of the detrimental position that we were in at the time.
We expedited the process of getting out of debt. I believe we were a year ahead of time. First and foremost, we had to build relationships with not only surrounding communities, but with various governments and financial institutions in order to work together to move forward. Swan Lake has come a long way.
At the start, I was told that there were no financial institutions that would work with them because of the type of debt that they were holding. As a result, they had to commit a lot of their own source revenue.
As I indicated earlier, I was a member of the RCMP for 20 years. I had the opportunity to work in various communities throughout our province, and a lot of them were Native communities. I have seen a lot in my career as an RCMP in relation to how people lived, and in this day and age it is unacceptable. There are still people out there that have no running water.
I grew up with no running water until I was 10 years old. I'm very familiar as to what it is like. We still laugh about it, my brothers and sisters and me. There were seven of us. We used to have this galvanized tub and we would take turns having a bath. I was the middle child so the oldest ones went last.
Those are facts that people are living with today. We, in Swan Lake, are fortunate. We have the opportunity to provide various businesses and identify various businesses for the purpose of own-source revenues. I don't believe in Ontario you have the luxuries of gaming like we do in Manitoba. We have two VLT lounges which is a huge source of our own source revenue for the purpose of identifying expenditures for various programs, not only for housing, but there are other things we have to top up, such as education, et cetera.
We have the land base when it comes to cultural land. We're able to lease land. We do have one EC who is a community member, and we do lease to surrounding community individuals.
We also have a bison farm. We're hoping to go more commercial. We run about 220 bison, I would say. I haven't counted them of late. We did have a commercial cattle ranch also, but we sold the cattle recently. We picked the wrong time to do it, because cattle prices went through the roof. Swan Lake grasps at any opportunity we may have in relation to identifying funding from elsewhere.
Coming to this position that I'm in as the director of operations was not easy, coming from a background of a police officer. What helped were the experiences I had. I always heard the horror stories as to what happens behind the doors on First Nations and I wanted to see for myself.
With a lot of hard work and ingenuity, things can be done. But you have to change the mentality of a lot of players, not only that of bureaucrats and government, you have to hold them accountable also, but the grassroots people themselves, and your senior staff, your senior administration and chief and councils.
We preach to one another: We have to live within our means. We have various contribution agreements that we identify within our budgets. We have our budget meetings, like everybody else, chief and council. Swan Lake has a weekly meeting, unlike what I have seen in a lot of other First Nations where I policed, but it is the idea of communicating. Yes, we're not always going to be happy with the various funding arrangements that we have to deal with and, yes, there are times when I commend the various people I work with in Aboriginal Affairs. I have to take my hat off to the various FSOs that by working with us, by working with me in particular as a director of operations for Swan Lake, have taught me several very instrumental working arrangements and/or things you have to know when you are in this business.
I had the opportunity to talk to this young gentleman here after supper. Thanks for the supper, ladies. He indicated, even like your environment here, you can't come in and think you know it all. It is not going to happen. You learn something new every day. We're not perfect; there are a lot of things that still need fixing. We have a long road ahead of us and identifying our priorities in relation to your grassroots people is the biggest thing that Swan Lake took upon themselves when I started with them and that was our housing.
You only feel as good as your surroundings. That is another thing we preached. Keep our yards clean, keep our houses tidy, no graffiti. Any broken windows, you fix them right now. You have to hold the people accountable for what is broken, if it's unaccounted for.
We have that regime. We have a housing policy where we charge rent for any CMHC house. A lot of the First Nations in the Manitoba region do not do that unless the people are on social assistance, and what kind of message are we sending?
CMHC housing is affordable housing if administered properly. As long as you can keep the various facets in relation to your bank accounts, your replacement reserve, your repair and maintenance, et cetera, in line with that of your agreements that you signed with CMHC, your subsidy assists you tremendously in identifying affordable housing.
Like I said before, our working class in Swan Lake, the ones that are working, we do charge rent on the various sizes of the units based on the CMHC criteria, and also the social assistance criteria. So we have to inject the money that we receive through these various rental agreements into these various accounts to sustain that type of housing.
The various government programs we took advantage of, CAP I believe was one of them. The HASI programs we took advantage of. The various RRAP programs we took advantage of. We took advantage of them to identify the infrastructure and renovations that were required at the First Nation level.
I can sit here and brag that we have identified about 98 per cent of our housing stock and renovated them. Some of these units cost us in the area of $60,000. We had one unit that was two-by-fours. All we were going to do was change the Gyproc inside, but it was straight mould so we had to keep going. I drove to work one day and saw Tony's house and I was just looking at two-by-fours. What happened to the house? It's a reality. I was down to my home First Nation and had the opportunity to look at a house where they are living in mould, and that's unacceptable.
But a lot of these First Nations to the North don't have the opportunity we have. We are an hour and a half from Winnipeg, an hour and 20 minutes from Brandon and 20 minutes from the U.S. border. Another bigger community, Winkler, is 40 minutes from us, so we have the opportunity to generate some sort of economic development to sustain the type of infrastructure that we need.
Yes, we can make applications to the various levels of government for infrastructure dollars, and again I will commend Aboriginal Affairs for their assistance in identifying funds for us moving forward in some of our ventures, namely our water and waste water treatment plants. Right now we are looking at a venture of building a 55,000 square foot office complex adjacent to the golf course, adjacent to Winnipeg. We have people phoning us on a regular basis and looking for this office space. When will you guys be done? We need timelines.
The obstacle there is identifying money for the purpose of moving forward. Yes, we get the various amounts from Aboriginal Affairs, et cetera. It's startup money, basically. We have to have our own equity. We have been identifying, putting money aside in GICs for these kinds of rainy day funds so we can prove to the various financial institutions that we are able and capable of looking after our resources, our own-source revenues. It allows them to trust that the payment will come.
This 55,000 square foot office complex is a stand-alone business. Once we get started, it will look after itself.
The problem I have, which I will run into again this year, is that we've just identified various funds for the purpose of substructure on this building venture that we're embarking on. But we got the okay from HQ — Aboriginal Affairs — on Monday. The paperwork says we're going to get a certain amount of dollars. It has to be spent by March 31. These types of deadlines make me want to pull my hair out, especially at the timing of when they provide the funding. Some of the substructure items are unrealistic in relation to when you bring in factors such as the elements of weather.
You can't put piles in right now. I don't know how many people have the opportunity to venture to Manitoba in the last couple of years, but it was minus 29 the other day, and the frost is in the ground. I did have the opportunity to speak to the young lady at Aboriginal Affairs in charge of the project and she is going to see what she can do to accommodate us in relation to the timelines and/or the agreement itself as to the deliverables so that we can work around it. It is money I don't want to give back to the region, which will be given back to headquarters and they don't want that either. Something has to change in that regard when it comes to these timelines.
Another advantage Swan Lake has over a lot of First Nations in the province is that they have their own land code. We're one of only three First Nations in Manitoba that has their own land code, which helps expedite any process in relation to economic development and structure, building new structures, et cetera. We don't have to go through the red tape and bureaucracy of ministerial guarantees. We do our own guarantees now as a result of land code, the various easements, et cetera.
Prior to the archaic way with all the various applications we had to make, just to build a small little business, it took them months if not years to get approval. For people who are not aware, a lot of the elections for change of administration, chief and councils are every two years in Manitoba. By the time you embark on a new venture, you are changing administration. Priorities change in a lot of cases, but not in all cases.
Those are some of the things we have that First Nations with no land codes have to deal with.
Some of the policies within Aboriginal Affairs also have to be seriously looked at in identifying infrastructure. A good example is that, years ago, Swan Lake took it upon itself to get a loan prior to my employment with them. They identified a loan in the area of $400,000 for the purpose of water lines for water to the various residences on the First Nation. As a result of this $400,000, they went to Aboriginal Affairs hoping that they would be relieved of some of these funds after the fact. But they didn't meet the criteria under their policy as it called for a 10-inch pipe versus a 6- inch pipe they used. A lot of municipalities in the area use a 3-inch pipe for water, cutting down costs.
When we did identify dollars through Aboriginal Affairs for the purpose of further piping, one of the issues we had was that we had to use various sized piping and then we had fire hydrants, which had to be a certain number of metres from each other, specifically. So you'd have a fire hydrant in the middle of nowhere. I was just laughing the other day in driving by one. Who will be using that hydrant? Yet we have the communal people living near schools, et cetera. They are not close, but they have to be specific to their mandates and policies.
Some of those things have to change and be realistic when dealing with infrastructure on First Nations.
Another entity we started, again with assistance from Aboriginal Affairs, was a recycling depot, which seems to be working well. Again, it's educating the grassroots people. This is all new to them. Our landfill, even though it's not the prettiest sight, is one of the cleanest I've ever been to on a First Nation. Our guys look after it very well.
It's not only infrastructure but by using our own-source revenues, identifying the priorities in the community with a chief and council, identifying the needs of the people themselves, we're also able to enhance our construction equipment. We just purchased new graders, another loader to add to our three loaders, skid steers and school buses. If we were to follow that of the budgets and/or capital dollar costs that we receive, it would take us 20 years to buy a new school bus if we put $5,000 away a year. That doesn't work so we identify our own-source revenues again for providing safe service markets.
I don't know where else to go. Maybe I'll open it up for various questions now and if I think of anything else I'll carry on.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Gould. That was most interesting, including your personal story.
Senator Dyck: I think I'll ask one short question to start off.
It sounds like you have come from a place of not doing very well and being in debt and now you're doing extremely well. I notice in our information that you signed a treaty land entitlement agreement and I want to know when that was and if that treaty land entitlement and whatever funds or land that came with that was one of the critical steps that allowed you then to expand your land base and then start own-source revenue generation?
Mr. Gould: The treaty land entitlement was signed prior to my starting work with Swan Lake. I've been with them for nine and a half years now so it was well prior to that because it took them in the area of eight years, I believe, to get the land transferred over.
The TLE, yes, enhanced the opportunities in relation to own-source revenue, namely at the Headingley properties, whereas we built another facility for the purpose of gaming where it houses 30 VLTs. We built a gas bar and identified revenues through that. We had an old hotel/motel structure there which we renovated and turned into office space and it's full. We have a list of people who want in there for the purpose of working next to Winnipeg and working on treaty lands.
We then took the opportunity with the addition of the 6,400 at Carberry where we started a bison stock. We don't have many residences there. That wasn't the vision at the time of the administration to make it more of a communal area. It was the hunting grounds, et cetera, but now it's getting more commercial oriented.
A few years ago we built a structure for the purpose of child and family services, the Dakota Ojibway Child and Family Services, in the area, which they rent from us. The lease money pays for the operations of the building, the amortization, et cetera, so it's a no-cost venture to the First Nation. We built five log cabins, which we will be opening this week. We have some pictures if anyone wants to see. I'll advertise here.
We just completed a 40-bay RV park there on those new lands with full 50 camp service and water hookups to each unit and that's adjacent to the Spruce Woods Park, taking that opportunity. We also have a youth camp there which houses the bunkhouses for the male and female kids, et cetera, and our various chaperons who work there. It's all run by natural energy, windmill energy, solar energy and propane. The kids love it. It did enhance our opportunities in identifying own-source revenues and the additions to reserve.
Senator Dyck: Thank you.
Senator Tannas: Thank you very much coming and sharing your knowledge and your experience with us.
Concerning the turnaround between 2005 and now, could you give us some contrasting statistics? What I'm wondering is specifically could you tell me in 2005 what percentage you would have had for own-source revenue? I think you said round number zero but maybe you could confirm that, and also what percentage you would have had of employment of band members to today; own-source revenue as a percentage of your total revenues and what your employment numbers would look like.
Mr. Gould: When I say contribution agreements, agreements of Aboriginal Affairs and their health arrangements. At the time Swan Lake had a gas bar, which went basically bankrupt. The only other source of revenue was land lease and they had a smaller VLT allowance on the First Nation. As a result of additions to reserve and the land code, we are able to identify these other economic opportunities and own-source revenue and you need that own-source revenue in order to venture into the new areas of economic development. Without it I can't see how other First Nations can do it unless you derive it from various partnerships.
As to employment in some of the areas, we had to make various cuts, reduction in employment, in order to identify the revenues from the various entities to make the amortization in order to live within our financial management plan.
We identified tens of thousands of dollars on a monthly basis for the purpose of making these payments to relinquish the deficit. As a result, there were some tough decisions that had to be made and we had to explain to the grassroots people why these decisions were required. Our own-source revenue at the time I would say would be 10 per cent of our total contributions through our consolidated audit. It well exceeded that of our various government funding.
Senator Tannas: What about actual employment, not only what the bands got for people working but members of the community, how many have a job today versus had a job or were working in 2005?
Mr. Gould: We probably increased our employment by 100 per cent at least with regard to the various projects we took on. We made additions to our various health programs, et cetera. We're moving away from what is part of infrastructure, but identifying any good government, any good business is human resources, and the person and/or persons to look after your human resources. A lot of things lacking and/or not even present in the various First Nations are human resources. We don't have the luxury of having human resources.
We at Swan Lake, the chief and council have identified monies again from my own sources, whereas the band support we get from Aboriginal Affairs is inadequate for the purpose of running affluent government. So we have to use again our own-source revenues to identify positions that are integral in providing services for the community.
Human resources is one of them. Special projects is another; assistant to special projects is another one. My position is another one. These are positions that are not directly funded with federal dollars.
Senator Enverga: Thank you for the presentation. I am happy to know that your band is the one that came from red to a really booming town.
Now that your band is growing and is really becoming more progressive, have the other band members not living with the band signalled they are coming back? Have they told you that? Have you made any preparation for them coming back if they are?
Mr. Gould: Because the parcels of land that I identified earlier are separate, a lot of these opportunities are not on the main reserve with regard to our new economic development ventures. A lot of them are living in Winnipeg already and applying for jobs and opportunities there.
With regard to the facilities at Carberry, it is a half hour, 45 minutes from Brandon, so a lot of the band members that already live in Brandon are applying for positions there.
The problem we have in the First Nation is identifying residency if we had an influx of people and we have to be mindful of that. The First Nation took it upon itself to build eight log homes. We have our own sawmill. We harvested our own logs. We have our own mill. We have our own planer. We took the opportunity to build eight log homes, but of course those were limited in that regard. They also cost money.
We are trying to find innovative ways. We built an eight-plex for our elders. We don't have a care home for elders, which would be nice, but something similar to that. It's independent living within the eight-plex, one-bedroom apartments. We try to move them out of the housing stock into these various apartments so we can free the housing up for families with one or two kids.
A good example is that this year we identified so many dollars for CMHC units, two units. We combined those two units to make one six-bedroom unit for a family with nine kids. So you have to sort of think outside the box for the needs of the community.
With the influx of people returning, we have to be mindful that we have to entertain living accommodations if we're going to — not so much accept them, they're already community members, they have the ability to move back if they want to, but providing them units to live in is a challenge.
Senator Enverga: It is sort of progressive, but can you tell me how much the band is receiving from the government for infrastructure or residential? I am looking for the cost there. How much money is the government giving to your band at this point?
Mr. Gould: I don't have the consolidated audit in front of me. I am not certain as to the questions in relation to money given to the First Nation. The various funding that is provided to the First Nation is identified in that of contribution agreements through the arrangement, a CFNA arrangement with the federal government and various entities in that arrangement can fluctuate.
I guess I'm not comfortable with the word ''give.'' It is provided for the purpose of running programs within the First Nation.
We are provided dollars for the purpose of various entities. It may be education, social assistance, infrastructure, band support, insurances, et cetera. It's funds that are provided to the First Nation to provide services to the grassroots people.
Senator Enverga: You don't have a rough idea of the funds?
Mr. Gould: I'll give you an example of infrastructure. We have band-based infrastructure. We are provided $364,000, in that area, to maintain our infrastructure within the community. To give you an example, our insurances for the purpose of our buildings is in the area of $170,000. Our wastewater treatment plant alone has increased our insurance by $28,000, but that does not increase in relation to the maintenance of the various infrastructure that we're building.
It's easy to build a building. You also have to maintain that building, insure that building, and hire people for the operations of that building. Our CFNA does not increase as a result of these new endeavours, so there's an issue there, too. That just gives an example.
Our education is something that we have been arguing about for quite some time. We feel that because of the arrangement, we are not compatible or parallel to that of the provincial entities. We're in the area of receiving funding for the purpose of education, approximately $7,500 per student annually. When we have to pay for our grade 9 and 12 students to go off reserve, $11,000, which is not compatible; it causes us again to identify monies from own-source revenues to enhance the various programs that we have shortfalls on.
I don't know how other First Nations that don't have the luxury of that type of own-source revenue are able to move forward with some of those entities.
The Chair: If I can follow up on Senator Enverga's question, you were talking about people moving back on the reserve. I think you said that people wanted to live in the trailer park you built, if I heard you right. They wanted to be on treaty land, did you say?
Mr. Gould: We didn't build a trailer park. It was work on office.
The Chair: I'm sorry.
Mr. Gould: It's not open yet. We just purchased it recently. They're just finishing the renovating as a result of moving it down. It was an RTM. It's a five-unit structure to facilitate single and/or couples for the purpose of working at Carberry, because the commute is 50 minutes from the home reserve and they're finding it hard, because of the wages they're being paid to hold the job there, to make it worthwhile driving 100 miles each day. In order to alleviate some of the financial pressures, we identified this unit for the purpose of them to live there, where they will pay a minimal rent and save them the travelling, et cetera.
Senator Sibbeston: As I'm sitting here listening to you, Mr. Gould, I'm reminded of a TV program. You may have seen ''America's Got Talent'' or Britain; these various countries have programs where they have singers come before them singing. Once in a while, somebody will come before them who absolutely blows everybody away. You remind me a little bit of that. You are such a talent. I expected to see a woman tonight, because we were going to have a meeting with the chief tonight. But you came in a nice, gentle, soft voice, telling us of your personal life and telling us all the amazing things that you and the band are doing.
In this regard, it is hard to just talk about housing. I take it for granted that you've all done a really good job with your housing. You say you've got 140 houses. I take it that they're all in good shape. Everybody, it seems, pays rent. On the band, it seems like people have a good attitude of living within their means. There are so many things I see that seem so commendable and which will lead to the success of the First Nation. In my own life experience, that is one of the most difficult things for First Nations people in part because they come from a different life. In the North, where I come from, 50 years ago, people were living on the land; people were living out in the bush. Up in Inuit country, where Dennis lived for many years, people come from igloos. So you have a people who have a subsistence lifestyle and are just, through modern times, coming to live in communities and learn the White man's way.
One of the biggest things is for Native people to realize that they really have no choice. We have to get into business. We have to do like White people do, in the sense of recognizing that the old way of making a living is gone. Now you have to learn to use computers, you have to get educated and so forth — that whole movement that First Nations in our country are going through.
I wonder if you could say something about that, because I do find it so amazing that you and your First Nation have made that jump or that change or that transition to a new and modern way of living, and recognize that you need your own self and your own sources. You even compliment Aboriginal Affairs officials, which we never hear of Native people doing. So there are lots of pretty nice, positive things.
Can you say something about that? It is most unusual, and I applaud you for that.
Mr. Gould: With technology nowadays and the way the world is evolving and moving right before our eyes, quickly before our eyes, we see the need of business. A lot of First Nations — and my grandmother might roll over in her grave — but sometimes you have to treat it like a business. You have to make those hard decisions when you are in business. That's part of doing business. If we always made our decisions from here, you are going to be in trouble. You want to, but you can't. There's a time you have to say no.
Saying that, there's a time you have to say yes. There's a time you have to look out of the box, look at other ventures that will enhance opportunity for your grassroots people — not just for the people in your community but the people who evolve around your community, because they also bring money into your community.
People from Swan Lake that surround that of our First Nation — when I say ''Swan Lake,'' there's a community next to us also known as Swan Lake, Swan Lake First Nation, but those people come and visit us in our First Nation. They use our gas bar, play our VLTs, buy various products from us, et cetera. You have to treat it as a business. You have to sell yourself to surrounding communities.
Moving forward, it is exciting, actually. Yes, you are going to stumble and, yes, you are going to have cost overruns. And yes, you are going to have to find a way to get past that. It is always trial and tribulation, every day. It is not easy. It's worthwhile, though, at the end of the day when you accomplish something.
Senator Sibbeston: In the Northwest Territories a number of years ago we had a new bishop. Up to that point, a lot of the churches had used bingos as a means of raising money for programs. But he outlawed bingo. No more bingo. The Catholic Church wasn't going to have bingo. In the matter of gambling, these VLT machines, I know there's a line of thought amongst Native people that Native people shouldn't encourage their own people to have it, or it shouldn't even be around, because it is really a bad habit. It can ruin you and it is a vice. It is like drinking; it is a vice.
How do you handle that? How can you justify having VLTs on the reserves and readily available to Native people who might suffer as a result of misuse of it?
Mr. Gould: We have various programs within the First Nation trying to identify some of those issues. VLTs is one trial that we have to deal with on a regular basis, I will readily admit. Some people have to learn to control their urges, per se.
We provide information sessions. There's information provided at the various facilities also, similar to that of our National Native Alcohol and Drug Abuse Program, NNADAP. With substance and alcohol abuse, you have to educate the individuals. After repetition, they learn: This is all I can afford.
I had the opportunity a few weeks ago to go into the casino, which is situated on the Swan Lake First Nation lands. I might have seen 10 Native people in there. It was all non-Native, 60-plus, who were playing the machines. I call that ''new money.'' It's not circulated dollars; that's new money. I like that new money, so you are all invited.
On a serious note, we know what comes with that, and we're very aware of it. I educate a lot of my staff and a lot of the people in the community who come into my office. We have various situations, and if that's the case: ''Please, I don't want to see you next door. I'm not going there. Don't worry about it.''
But we don't put it by the wayside and leave it there. We are able to identify the people it affects and try to help them.
The Chair: Following up on that, I think we were all struck by your compliments of the government officials that you are working with, and you talked about the good relations with the funding services officers, FSOs. How do you make that happen? And did they come to you or did you go to them?
Mr. Gould: It is a two-way street. I always heard the horror stories of Aboriginal Affairs in relation to the tricks they played: ''We never got that fax.'' ''Funding is being held.'' ''We never got your reports,'' et cetera. So you have to turn it around. They had to be accountable to us.
So we made it to a point where we had a relationship — a working relationship, a good relationship — and I told them this — I was straight with our FSO: ''You are going to be accountable to me, not me being accountable to you.'' I said, ''It works both ways.''
One of the best instruments ever introduced to any First Nation was the First Nations and Inuit Transfer Payments System, FNITP program. It has a new acronym now. I believe it is called GCIMS. With that instrument at your fingertips, you are able to identify your various diary dates with your reporting. With it at your fingertips, you are able to identify your budgets as to your cash flows received from the various forms of government, and it is all there.
If I do a report and upload it and they say, ''Oh, we never got your report,'' I can go in there and identify exactly where that report is. ''Yes, you did; it is there.''
The Chair: Is that a Web cloud-based system? Could you describe it a little more for us, please?
Mr. Gould: It is a program derived from here at Aboriginal Affairs headquarters. It has all of your entities, all of your forms. It has your diary dates of all of your reports required. All of your receivables are on there as to your various programs, what is expected of you, what is expected of them, et cetera. It is a good instrument to keep tabs on each other, per se. You always know your cash flows, what is coming and where you are for the fiscal year, which helps when you are dealing with various programs. You check your various budgets, the variance on them. You go to your program. Maybe my Public Works guy says, ''We need this.'' ''No, you are going to have to wait. You are overextended. You have to wait a couple more months into the New Year and make do with what you've you got.'' Sometimes you have to tell them, ''You have to live within those means,'' and be mindful of what you have on paper. What you have on paper and what you have in the bank are two different things. You all know that. The staff have to be mindful of that, too.
The Chair: Thank you. That's the GCIMS, the Grants and Contributions Information Management System, a Web- enabled transfer payment management system that automates the department's transfer payment business processes, manages funding agreement information and provides online access for First Nations and other funding recipients.
Mr. Gould: That's one of the tools we've been working with since 2007, as a result of working with our FSO at the time. I said, ''There must be a better way.'' They said, ''Oh, they have this thing.'' You know what? There are only a few First Nations that are using it.
The Chair: Okay, that's very helpful. It was formerly FNITP. Thank you.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much. I'm really enjoying hearing from you. Do you think that, even today, there are very few First Nations using the GCIMS?
Mr. Gould: From my experience in Manitoba — I don't know about other parts of the country — there's only a handful of us, I believe.
Senator Raine: Yet that tool is available to anybody, any First Nation?
Mr. Gould: That tool is available to anybody. Because of budget cuts and stuff, there's no one going out teaching anymore.
Senator Raine: Would you like a job?
I was interested because, obviously, if you are trying to get a handle on managing the finances of the reserve, then a tool like that makes it easier for you because you can look quickly and see where the budgets are.
Mr. Gould: You can see the money that came for our budgets identified and work within those parameters. It is very helpful for my management team and me to keep a handle on things.
Senator Raine: In Swan Lake, you work with the First Nations Land Management Act, so you have, through that process, a lands management plan that is also in place?
Mr. Gould: Yes, we do. It is a lot of work. It was a lot of work to get it enacted in the community, the election portion of it. Where a lot of communities fall between the cracks is identifying the majority as to the way the voting process is. We just discussed that with another form of government the other day, and that has to change.
I will be blunt. When I left home, I was 17 years old. I saw home in the rearview mirror, other than family I would go and visit here and there. I was never mindful to be involved in the various decisions made for that First Nation I came from as a result of leaving. Let them deal with it; let them make those political decisions. I have nothing to do with it.
Now that I'm on the other side of the fence, you see how important it is that you still involve yourself in these decisions being made at your First Nation. Saying that, if everybody had the mentality that I had, no one wants to get involved in these various votes, et cetera, so, naturally, you are not going to have the percentages required in order to make it work.
That's something that has to be looked at because there was one that was just voted on, I understand, in Manitoba, in the last week, where 90 per cent were in favour of it. But they didn't have the percentage of the total vote in order to pass it, and a huge entity in any First Nation, moving forward, is the Land Management Act.
Senator Raine: What you are saying is that the Land Management Act should be adjusted so that maybe you have the first shot at it with the full membership of the band, but, if you don't come up to the percentage of people actually voting, you can do a re-vote, a slightly higher percentage of those who did vote.
Mr. Gould: Exactly.
Senator Raine: Yes, I can see where that would cause a lot of problems. Are you involved in various governance, like with Harold Calla, who was here last week?
The Chair: The First Nations Financial Management Board or the First Nations Market Housing Fund.
Mr. Gould: I'm with the Aboriginal Financial Officers Association, our Manitoba representative. I have no designation. I don't know why they voted me in. I declined a couple of times, and the third time they didn't let me decline. So I have been part of the board for a few years now.
Senator Raine: I know that with the First Nations Financial Management Act and the authority for that, they're really working toward putting government systems in place so that you can actually go out and start to borrow money on the market as well.
Mr. Gould: I'm familiar with that. Again, there's a lot of work involved there, too.
Senator Raine: Sure.
Mr. Gould: It is not as cut and dried as it may seem. In identifying the First Nations for the purpose of letting go of a lot of it, you're relinquishing almost all control of various sources of revenue as a result. A lot of First Nations have a hard time doing that when you are dealing with own-source revenue, such as Swan Lake.
It is almost like they use the contracts that they sign these hockey players to. ''We'll give you all this, but we want this over the years.'' At the end of the day, you'd best be mindful of what you end up with.
Senator Raine: My question that I really wanted to ask was about the proposed wind farm project that you are working on. Can you give us a little rundown on how that is going? I understand you are looking at possibly a P3 approach to finance it. Is that going to be possible for a wind farm?
Mr. Gould: No. We ventured out at a cost of approximately half a million dollars to the First Nation. We're hoping that, in the future, it will still be a doable project. We worked with Manitoba Hydro and the federal government on the project. Because of various budgets, per se, and the financial aspect of it versus the cost of the kilowatt hours, they dropped the bag on us basically at the end of the day. We still have the file open. We haven't closed it because we're hoping things might change. I believe it was a 3P that we were also working with.
The individual is well-versed in the area. He is not working right now due to various leaves. I don't know when to expect him back but he was the one who was working on the project. I'm limited as to my knowledge of it. I'm sorry, but I don't want to say something that is not correct.
Senator Raine: My understanding of wind farms is that they can be successful if they are connected somehow to a hydroelectric project. You can store the water and when the wind blows you have an interaction.
Mr. Gould: There is a wind farm with 68 windmills adjacent to the reserve, but not on reserve land. Swan Lake was party to receiving the information as a result of towers on the First Nation. We had ample wind for the purpose of the structure. The project was going to be in the area of $24 million. It was going to be a communal wind farm with the power sold to the grid. They didn't think it was feasible as a result of the price of kilowatts in the province of Manitoba versus the price in Ontario.
Senator Raine: Ontario might be subsidizing their wind farms, but I'm not sure. I guess that's one of the things when you're looking at all kinds of opportunities, they will not all be successful. Some are longer term and some are shorter term.
Mr. Gould: We have not closed the file. We are still hoping for opportunity.
Senator Raine: We are studying infrastructure. In terms of infrastructure, what are your needs for the community at this time? How are you looking at moving forward on those projects?
Mr. Gould: In terms of infrastructure needs in relation to the community, water is integral. We have an open system and a closed system for our housing and businesses. In an open system, water is trucked to cisterns with our water trucks from our water treatment plant. That's considered an open system.
In a closed system, water is piped to the various residents. We are at 50 per cent capacity, as it's being piped; but we'd like to have an all-closed system.
The waste water treatment plant that we built this year is a different type of system. It's a membrane system on a membrane wheel, whereby the sludge is used to operate the system. When we went to look at the system in Denver initially, I told the guy who showed it to us, ''If you drink that water, we'll buy it.'' Water is integral with regard to our infrastructure.
Our development in Headingley is huge for economic development opportunities. We are starting with an office space. If we can get that stand-alone, it's an $11-million project. We want to build box stores and a hotel conference centre. We are going to have a new gas bar. We're looking at a pharmacy and doctors' offices, et cetera. We are hoping those opportunities are there and are self-sustained when we get there. We are moving forward. Like I said, money has been identified for the purpose of the substructure. We started on the civil work for the office complex.
We have various service agreements to entertain with the surrounding rural municipalities — maybe fire agreements and/or water and waste water agreements, et cetera. Policing agreements are another thing that we entertain. I got to work at Swan Lake as a result of a policing agreement — a Community Tripartite Agreement, CTA, for First Nations Community Policing Services, FNCPS — for members back in 1995; and I policed them for nine years. They just called me at work one day. I bought a restaurant bowling alley as a result of retiring. They phoned me there and I told my wife I went back to work. I was still on medical leave. The restaurant was a good investment.
One thing that's huge in any community is teaching our youth job readiness and job skills. In the community, we had to laugh at some of the teenagers because they didn't even know how to wash dishes. In every community we have to teach our youth independence. Swan Lake has come a long way in that regard. We have a training centre in our band office. We built a new band office. It cost us close to $1.5 million. Again, it was done with our own-source revenues. As a result, we put in a training centre that houses approximately 20 computers, where we entertain the mature 12 studies. We bring in a lady three days a week from a neighbouring community 45 minutes away. She's part of a college and teaches some kids who dropped out in the past because things did not work out for them. They are coming back to school because they want their grade 12.
We are able to gauge how many kids we're reaching out to and getting back at our local annual powwows. We used to have 5-10 graduates and now we have 30 graduates. We recognize them at annual powwows, on- and off-reserve.
Senator Moore: The chair was asking about the RV park. I thought you said something about a 40-unit RV park.
Mr. Gould: I thought you said ''mobile park.'' It's not mobile homes. It's an RV park for the purpose of camping.
Senator Moore: Okay. People bring their trailers over the weekend or in the summer months. You have 40 stations with electrical service where they can hook up.
Mr. Gould: Yes. It's open not only to community members but everybody. It's adjacent to Spruce Wood Park and Sand Hills Casino. There's so much wildlife around there and various trail rides, sand dunes, a river for canoeing.
Senator Moore: Did you build this or was it there and you took it over and fixed it up?
Mr. Gould: We built it adjacent to the provincial park. We took the opportunity. It was a vision by a previous administration to buy the adjacent land for opportunities. We just finished building the RV park.
Senator Moore: The lands that you picked up, 6,400 acres, are located, I believe you said, 50 minutes from the home reserve. How did you settle on that acreage as opposed to something abutting the reserve? How did that process work?
Mr. Gould: As I indicated, that was done before my time.
Senator Moore: Do you know the history of it?
Mr. Gould: The opportunity came up. It was owned by a farmer. He had a huge cattle ranch there. Because of the TLE, they had the opportunity to purchase land. They bought what they could that was available surrounding the reserve, but not all that land is for sale and/or if they knew the various people were selling, they were going to ask an astronomical price. This opportunity came up where the previous administration, the chief at the time, who has since passed on, had a vision of this land. It's beautiful country, sand dunes and a river there. It was their hunting grounds. It's still their hunting grounds, but now there is some commercial development there.
Senator Moore: Now you're raising buffalo there.
Mr. Gould: There is buffalo there. We have 120 buffalo there and 120 at the home reserve. The elders didn't want us to move them all. We were going to move them all there and the elders wanted us to keep some back.
Senator Moore: Can I ask you about the plans for the office building? I think that you said you submitted it to headquarters, as you call it, and that you got word today. Was that with regard to that project?
Mr. Gould: We got word Monday.
Senator Moore: That was with regard to this project, the office proposal.
We've heard this before, which is why you can't do this work in the winter time. When did you first apply for that, Mr. Gould? When did you apply initially?
Mr. Gould: It would be quite a while ago.
Senator Moore: Are you talking months or years?
Mr. Gould: A year ago. Some funds were identified for the civil work. Some funds were identified for the purpose of substructure in the area of about a quarter of what they are providing us now for the substructure. They topped it up as of Monday. They had limited funding identified initially, and they were able to top it up three quarters, by 300 per cent, and advised us on Monday, but with the receivables being completed by March 31 or around that area.
Like I said, I am working with the individuals with Aboriginal Affairs in our region and hopefully we can arrive at a happy medium as to what is acceptable in relation to the deliverables.
Senator Moore: What is the process when you first go in with your idea to talk to someone in the department? You probably worked up a business plan when you went in there. What happened in the intervening 12 months?
Mr. Gould: This plan has been ongoing for years.
Senator Moore: I thought you said just one year. I thought you said you applied a year ago.
Mr. Gould: No, the plan itself has been a year, applying for the actual start of the work, but in relation to the planning, Aboriginal Affairs wanted to see the planning, not just the building itself, but they wanted to see the planning of the infrastructure with regard to that parcel of land. Is it going to be commercial or residential? It's all commercial. So the engineering aspect of it has evolved for several years. It's been changed several times, again with change in various administrations prior to the change. One time it was supposed to be strictly commercial, with mobile homes all in there, back years and years ago, but they said no, they changed it again. But the plan for the purpose of the office space has changed several times, too, different engineering drawings, et cetera.
Okay, this is what we're going with, this is what we identified to Aboriginal Affairs, and as a result they assisted us in identifying funding also. It's not that we just go ahead and make an application. They are very knowledgeable in the various areas and they'll assist you. They will not just put you aside to do it on your own sort of thing.
What happens in some regions in various forms of government, certain projects fall through where funding is identified; as a result, rather than sending it back, they want to use it within the region, so this money frees up so you can use it.
Senator Moore: So the change is within the band, administration change, so the council started to move things around and changed the priorities and that impacted on what you were trying to achieve.
Mr. Gould: Yes, priorities change. A good example of changing priorities, Headingley was a priority for years, but when they got the opportunity to embark on the idea of the casino, because it fell through for another First Nation, the priority shifted, so this one went to the back burner.
Senator Moore: You have to be nimble.
Senator Beyak: I live in an area where we have successful reserves, several of them right around my home, and further north we have many communities that are still living in quite a bit of squalor.
You mentioned when you were an RCMP member that you saw some of the problems as well. Your reserve is obviously happy. I can see why they wanted you on the board. As soon as they heard live within your means, clean houses, tidy yards, no graffiti, I'm sure it was welcome to their ears.
What do you think is the solution? I know there isn't a single one, but why do you think that huge difference still exists? I can't put an answer to it.
Mr. Gould: I can't speak for everybody, but from what I've seen over the years demographics play a huge part in various communal priorities. You might live 100 miles apart but your priorities are totally different and how you do things is different, your economic development and what you sustained by. Are you a fishing community? Are you a lumber community? Are you a hunting and trapping community versus that of Swan Lake where they have the opportunity to look at a lot of modern commercial opportunities and farming opportunities?
Like I said earlier, one of the biggest holdbacks is the red tape with regard to bureaucracy when you try to move forward. One of the biggest things that Swan Lake has the luxury of, and I'll harp on it, is the land code and being able to, as a result, get rid of a lot of that red tape and make it a more fluent transition.
With regard to the youth, there is a huge issue there in identifying priorities, and it's not only in First Nation communities. You see it in all the communities where things are changing and we have to change with it and/or adapt. It's not an easy fix. There are various pieces of legislation coming down where the ones at the end of the day who are going to suffer are our youth. It's because of change. It's the youth that we have to really concentrate on and be mindful of assisting them in moving forward. Otherwise, a lot of First Nations will continue as to where they are if we are not able to make that commitment to our youth.
Education is a huge entity. The literacy aspect, I lived it. I went to university when I was 18 and all I basically knew was the First Nation. Yes, I went to Winnipeg once in a while and it was just like that show ''Breaking Amish.'' You saw so much; it was overwhelming. You have to be empathetic in identifying the youth who come out of these northern communities, putting them in an environment totally different from what they have lived in all their lives, only seeing it on television, and they wonder why a lot of our people end up on the street. They have a hard time assimilating to that environment and we have to concentrate a lot more on our youth and education and training. The sad part is there are limitations in a lot of those northern communities. I worked in a lot of those northern communities.
Senator Beyak: I've noticed that too with the youth, that we have a lot of them seeing on TV, just what you said, that there is a life and they tell me when I see them on the planes and the buses that there's a world out there with nail spas and hair salons and they want to be part of that but they love their homes, too. However, there is not proper housing on those northern reserves so they don't want to live there. They want to go to the cities where things are modern, which is part of the problem, too, and you've offered some solutions.
Mr. Gould: Exactly. You always want what everybody else wants and/or that opportunity to have what other people have. It's a dream. A lot of kids do it though. They take on those opportunities and they'll go with it.
Being a First Nation person, I found it very trying when I was police officer. I was 20 years old when I joined the police force and for me to look at you in the eye was disrespectful. That's just one example of the differences, yet as a police officer it was the other way around. When your sergeant is yelling at you and you're not looking, you get heck for that. It's cultural sensitivity that we all have to be aware of and it works both ways. We have to be mindful of that.
Senator Beyak: Thank you.
The Chair: Yesterday the committee heard from representatives from institutions created under the First Nations Fiscal Management Act and they told us that they have recently issued a bond financed by private capital markets that they indicated would help support infrastructure on First Nations that are part of their borrowing pool.
I wonder if your community would be interested or is interested in participating in the structures created under FNFMA?
Mr. Gould: We're most definitely optimistic in identifying any such opportunity like that as long as it fits for the First Nation and the priority not just of the senior administration and chief and council, but of the people.
A lot of our decision making, and/or chief and council decision making, goes to the people as to what they feel priorities are. Understanding the underlying aspects of these various arrangements is the big thing.
The big thing in one of the priorities with regard to native people is their land base and, as a result, they don't want to lose any of that. There are various rights that they hold truly as treaty rights, et cetera. When there are new initiatives, I find some of the downfall is the literacy aspect of how it is presented per se to the various First Nations in a way that they understand it.
I don't know where your visitors sit and they are out in left field when you guys are talking about various things, but it's the same with any community when you're talking budgets, et cetera. It's how it is presented to the individuals that it's going to affect.
Yes, if there is opportunity there and we find it's an advantage that we can take on that will enhance the community we will definitely look at it.
The Chair: Thank you.
And, if I may, you've talked a lot about your own-source revenues and how they've been critical to what you've been able to do and I think you've observed that not every community is as fortunate as you in your location. We've seen what some of our members have called two solitudes in First Nations and we've seen some of those have-not communities in northwestern Ontario that you were talking about in your policing days in Manitoba. But the federal government has stated that they're re-examining their own-source revenue policy and they're re-examining how own- source revenues are treated in determining federal transfers to self-governing Aboriginal groups.
To be candid with you, some of our members have said, ''My goodness, this band is so prosperous and doing so well yet they're still getting core funding from the federal government.'' I'm not talking about Swan Lake, but we did see some that were awash in own-source revenues.
I wonder if you'd have any thoughts on that and how the federal government should reconcile the need to guarantee core funding to all First Nations and yet the tremendous need to focus resources where they are obviously greatly needed. Do you have any comments on that?
Mr. Gould: I can't speak for other First Nations and I won't speak for other First Nations, but the way I look at various funding arrangements that are provided by government is to provide various services to community members and that's all it is. It's like any other form of government to provide services for the people residing within that, we say, First Nations reserves and/or municipalities versus that of municipalities. To these First Nations my hat is off to them for doing very well with an abundance of own-source revenue. I don't think it would be fair as a result to just take it away from them because you're penalizing them for a job well done. It is still money used to enhance various programs for services for the community. That's my opinion on it.
Senator Raine: A while ago you said that in Swan Lake people pay rent — everybody pays rent. I would like to know the background on how that came about. Was that a community decision? Was it imposed on them by a council or has it always been that way? There are many places where it's not like that. How did you come to have everybody paying rent?
Mr. Gould: I'll step back a bit. Not everybody pays rent from their pocket, per se. There are different types of housing on the First Nation. Everybody pays rent who is working if they're living in a CMHC house where we have an amortized mortgage for that unit. Social assistance pays rent to the CMHC regime through social assistance if they are living in a CMHC unit. In Swan Lake it was a trying process but it had to be sold to the people. If you want to live in a new unit, a nice unit, the repair and maintenance costs will be identified, the house will be maintained properly and various damages not directly caused by yourself. If the furnace goes, et cetera, as a result, we will replace that, but in order for us to do that, you have to pay rent; so you have a choice. You pay rent to live in a new CMHC house or find a place that you don't pay rent in, which could be a derelict place.
So the amounts asked for through the various CMHC arrangements are very affordable. They pay rent, they pay hydro and all the other costs, but it is an affordable structure. As a result, a lot of them agree to it.
We also charge rent to our elders, the ones who are on pension, because we have an obligation to pay these mortgages identified in the CMHC arrangements. Ideally, we like to alleviate some of the pressures from them with the various arrangements, but sometimes that's not possible. We always give the elders a choice. A lot of times, if they want the CMHC unit and they can afford it versus that of a band house where they don't have to pay rent but yet it might be an older house, some of them will choose to live in the band house.
One of the biggest challenges government and First Nations has is changing the mentality of the grassroots people, educating them that they don't own that house. That house is held in trust by that of the government, but throughout the years, we have lived in these various units. We were never educated to that regard. We got a house on the First Nations back 30 years ago, oh, here is your house. That's the mentality. That's my house; you are not touching my house. Technically, we all know it around the table that they don't own that house. That house is held in trust by the government. We don't own the land. That's why it is hard to convince a financial institution to come into the First Nation and provide funding for the purpose of economic opportunity because we don't own that land.
Anything affixed to the land, I don't know, we haven't got a definition on that as of yet, but is that structure part of the land in the definition of land?
Senator Raine: How long have you had your rental regime in place?
Mr. Gould: I would say 9, 10 years.
Senator Raine: Now it is pretty well accepted?
Mr. Gould: It is pretty much accepted.
Senator Raine: So that's probably a good estimate of the time it takes.
Mr. Gould: Yes. There are a lot of trials and tribulations. Eviction notices go out if people don't pay their rent. People who don't adhere to their leases in relation to keeping yards clean or keeping the house maintained can get an eviction notice identifying damages. If it's been identified that a doorway has been busted open, if a police report is done, we will replace it. If it's happened a second time, you are replacing it, but we have to make some tough decisions or the problems continue.
Senator Raine: I congratulate you for doing that. That's a great example for our First Nations.
Mr. Gould: You can't congratulate me; you can congratulate my staff.
Senator Raine: Exactly, and the community, really, for making that change.
Mr. Gould: I have to admit, we have very good staff. Yes, we're not perfect; a lot of times we have our differences. The communication aspect of it is integral to any working environment.
The Chair: Seeing no more questions, I thank you very much, Mr. Gould, for a very detailed and inspiring presentation. You gave credit to your staff, but I'm sure they have good leadership. Thank you very much for your presentation.
With that, I will suspend the committee.
(The committee continued in camera.)