Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 9 - Evidence - Meeting of December 1, 2014
OTTAWA, Monday, December 1, 2014
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5 p.m., to continue its study of best practices for language policies and second-language learning in a context of linguistic duality or plurality.
Senator Claudette Tardif (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Honourable senators, I call to order this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee of Official Languages. I am Senator Claudette Tardif from Alberta, and I am the chair of this committee. I would ask the senators to introduce themselves, starting on my left.
Senator Poirier: Good evening. Senator Rose-May Poirier from New Brunswick.
Senator Seidman: Judith Seidman from Montreal, Quebec.
Senator Rivard: Good evening, Senator Michel Rivard from Quebec.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Suzanne Fortin-Duplessis from Quebec.
Senator Charette-Poulin: Good evening. My name is Marie Charette-Poulin. I represent northern Ontario in the Senate.
[English]
Senator Oh: Victor Oh, Ontario.
[Translation]
The Chair: Today, the committee is continuing its study of best practices for language policies and second-language learning.
Our witnesses are members of the Canadian Teachers' Federation. We are very pleased to welcome them, and I would like to introduce them. Ms. Dianne Woloschuk, the President, and Mr. Ronald Boudreau, the Director of Services to Francophones. Welcome to the committee.
I give the floor to Ms. Woloschuk, who will be followed by Mr. Boudreau. After your presentations, the senators will ask you questions.
Dianne Woloschuk, President, Canadian Teachers' Federation: It is with pleasure that the Canadian Teachers' Federation accepted the invitation that had been extended to take part in this consultation on second-language learning.
I will begin by saying that we greatly appreciate your desire to better understand the challenges in having two official languages and more particularly in second-language learning. Learning the second language is a fundamental component in a country that highly values bilingualism.
My name is Dianne Woloschuk, I am the president of CTF, and it is my pleasure to be here today to speak on its behalf, for two reasons.
First, CTF represents about 200,000 teachers through its member organizations. Of these, over 10,000 work in French-language schools in minority settings and around 8,000 work in English-language schools in Quebec.
It is estimated that some 40,000 teachers teach either English or French as a second language. Since our membership reflects both Canadian linguistic minority situations, CTF is well-positioned to offer a balanced perspective on strategies that support the teaching of both French and English as second languages.
Secondly, I am proud to discuss this topic because I am also a teacher with professional experience in both core French and French immersion. And as a Franco-Saskatchewanian, I have always been keen to teach my mother tongue to the English-speaking majority in my home province of Saskatchewan.
In the first part of this presentation, we will present you with CTF's policy which is the basis for our recommendations on how to approach second-language learning in general.
In the second part, we would like to use a project we recently launched in support of French as a first language in a minority setting as an example of how a partnership could lead to developing a common Canadian framework on the best pedagogy for meeting the needs of second-language learners across Canada.
I will now give the floor to my colleague, Mr. Ronald Boudreau, who is the Director of CTF Services to Francophones.
Ronald Boudreau, Services to Francophones, Canadian Teachers' Federation: Good evening, and thank you for the invitation.
For many decades, CTF has been defending the rights of its members and advocating for a just and equitable public education system in Canada and throughout the world. Our policy is an accurate reflection of our beliefs and aspirations for this unique group which represents — as the president was saying — a significant number of our members.
I will not go into detail by reading these policies, since you will find them at the end of the document as a list of recommendations, but you can find them there for future reference.
We are particularly concerned about the 4 per cent decrease in the number of students enrolled in core French programs between 2009 and 2013. The fact that these programs are optional — which brings to mind our first policy — in most provincial and territorial jurisdictions does not help and may explain their elimination in some areas. However, one may wonder what was done to preserve them.
We acknowledge that each linguistic minority faces considerable challenges in its efforts to maintain its vitality. However, francophones in minority settings are experiencing a particularly difficult situation. The current context of linguistic plurality — which I know is one of your committee's concerns — forces us to rethink the way we define bilingualism. Welcoming this cultural and linguistic diversity does not mean that we have to transform our Canadian identity, but rather that we must clarify it.
Official bilingualism in Canada is a very powerful identity characteristic that, unfortunately, seems to have been devalued for some time by government authorities.
We firmly believe that when members of the majority and immigrants learn French as a second language, especially when language programs promote an understanding of the prevailing culture — I am referring, here, to our fourth policy — the francophone community experiences a boost in terms of vitality. This is the perspective of our presentation to you.
Several examples have taught us that an anglophone person, or a recent arrival to Canada who learns French, as well as the Canadian francophone reality that accompanies the language, can become excellent partners in an exogamous couple which, as we know, leads too often to assimilation.
Other anecdotes have made us realize the extent to which an anglophone or immigrant person who learns French and its cultural basics — we insist on this point — can have a very positive influence on bilingualism in their workplace. These examples reinforce our conviction that second-language learning must be combined with a good dose of cultural appropriation.
We are proposing a common framework to promote learning. At CTF, we have been closely monitoring initiatives designed to improve second-language teaching conditions, as in other fields. We see the Diploma in French-Language Studies — commonly referred to as ''DFLS'' — and the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR) as laudable initiatives, that are mainly driven by the desperate need to support second-language teachers.
There is no doubt that the DFLS and the CEFR are very valuable, and we commend France's and the Council of Europe's support in this regard. However, we believe that official bilingualism provides ample justification for Canada to invest in the development of a true Canadian framework of reference in which the Canadian francophonie would be better reflected. We are concerned to see the emergence of a generation of learners who are systematically assessed in a French that has very little to do with the reality of their community or even of the Canadian francophonie.
We at CTF have just launched a pedagogy adapted to the context of Canada's francophone minority. The Pédagogie à l'école de langue française (pedagogy in French-language schools), PELF, is an initiative of all provincial and territorial ministries of education that agreed to make this project a priority. The leading ministerial decision makers in francophone education turned naturally to CTF to create a pedagogy that would address the pressing needs of teachers who are facing some unique challenges.
As soon as CTF was given this mandate, it led to four years of collaboration with some of the most prominent researchers in the field of education in minority settings, as well as with dozens of classroom teachers in our schools, which produced the pedagogy. Thanks to a partnership with Les Productions Rivard, from Saint-Boniface, in Winnipeg, we were even able to make this pedagogy a reality by providing teachers with video-clips presenting a variety of real life situations from the classroom, including ''how to be'' and ''how to do'' types of situations.
Of course, I encourage you to visit the pelf.ca website to discover this pedagogy and get a better idea of what it is about. However, for the purpose of this consultation, I ask you to really think about all we could do if such an initiative were launched by all ministries of education to support second-language teaching generally in Canada. We think that the PELF clearly demonstrates that we do not need a European framework when we, right here at home, in Canada, have the necessary resources, research, and means to meet our teachers' real needs.
CTF is one of the national organizations that wholeheartedly followed the lead of the Canadian government about bilingualism and structural modernization. Our federation defines itself as bilingual in its operations and publications. It serves organizations whose membership reflects Canada's linguistic duality. We are proud to contribute in a significant manner to the development of our country and of the values that make it strong and unique, both at home and abroad.
Teachers in second-language programs face great challenges that make their job increasingly difficult. As a national federation, we believe in the importance of providing teaching conditions that foster learning for all students, and we are particularly concerned by the state of second-language teaching. As such, we are grateful to the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages for letting us share our concerns and present the following recommendations:
That the study of a second language be a requisite of the curriculum and an integral part of provincial and territorial legislative frameworks to protect this basic right of all Canadian students;
You will find that the following recommendations reflect our guiding principles, our policies.
That all Canadian students be able to achieve at least basic competency in the other official language, but that they may seek higher levels of linguistic competency in that language and acquire an understanding of the related culture;
That the Government of Canada take actions to return bilingualism to its rightful place as a national value and to promote Canadian bilingualism in a multilingual context;
And, finally, that mechanisms, like the PELF we designed for the francophone context, be put in place to provide second-language teachers with a proper pedagogy and tools to teach French or English as a second language, based on Canada's distinctive character and context.
The Chair: Thank you very much to our two witnesses. We will move on to questions, and the first will be asked by Senator Fortin-Duplessis, deputy chair of this committee.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Welcome to you both. There are different approaches to teaching a second language — basic or intensive programs, language baths or immersion. Some parents expose their children to a bilingual world from their birth, by speaking to them in two or more languages at home. Others prefer waiting until their children enter school to do so, while still others wait until later or simply let the child decide.
According to you, what is the ideal age at which to begin teaching the second language?
Ms. Woloschuk: I would say as early as possible. Frankly, once students begin studying another language, they learn it since it is so natural. They do not even realize they are learning.
Where I grew up, my parents were both francophones, we spoke French at home, and I lived in a tiny little francophone village in the south of Saskatchewan. When I started school, I spoke both languages and I do not remember learning either one. For students who wish to learn — back home, for example, it is the anglophone students who want to learn French — there are French-language kindergarten and pre-k classes offered as soon as they start school. That is where I signed up my children. The earlier they start, the easier it is.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: You say there are kindergarten and pre-k classes where children can learn. Are there enough spots in those classes for all those parents who want to send their kids there?
Ms. Woloschuk: In the case of pre-k, I am not sure if there are sufficient spots for all parents. But we have room for them in immersion programs in our schools, starting in kindergarten.
Mr. Boudreau: If I may. . . if you consider that there is a shortage of spots in French-language day care, then it seems to me that there would be a pre-k shortage as well. Say an anglophone parent wanted day care services that would allow their children to learn a second language — I have a feeling it would be hard to find them in certain areas.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: What are the pedagogical elements to consider when fostering optimal second-language learning?
Mr. Boudreau: Our presentation was born out of a concern raised during meetings with the second-language teachers. Currently, there is a return to the European context of teaching French as a second language. I dare say a return, because there was a time when second-language teaching programs were Eurocentric. That worries us because our research shows that you learn better when the context of what you are taught is similar to the one you live in.
That is why we wanted to insist on the fact that at the moment, at the CTF, with the moral and financial support of provincial and territorial ministries of education, we have developed a specific pedagogy for French-language schools. We believe there is no reason why such an initiative could not be conceivable for teaching the second language.
We have qualified researchers and highly competent second-language teachers who could contribute, as they did for first-language teaching, to the development of a Canadian second-language teaching framework that we believe would clearly foster learning.
Ms. Woloschuk: I would like to add something. I started teaching in 1977, and at the time, I think Saskatchewan and the rest of the country were implementing learning and teaching programs for French as a second language. The first year I taught, it was in a small rural village in Saskatchewan, and the only program available to students was Voix et images de France. That was a program they picked off the shelf when the official bilingualism policy became law, because there were no resources to teach students. They were teaching Voix et images de France everywhere across western Canada.
They quickly realized however that the program did not reflect this country's reality. The program worked fine in France, in the context for which it was designed. But in Canada, a Canadian program created according to the Canadian cultural context, that supported the bilingual policies of the country, would have been preferable for students here. That is when we saw homegrown programs being developed, including one for international French, and many others followed.
I have since taught basic French and immersion French. In the 1980s and the 1990s, there were some very effective basic French programs that motivated students. Now, we feel there is a lack of resources for basic French teaching. It is essential that we once more develop second-language programs for our students that will foster their commitment and help them value learning a second language.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Mr. Boudreau, is Quebec a part of your organization for second-language teaching?
Mr. Boudreau: You mean Quebec's anglophone teachers' organization?
Ms. Woloschuk: The Association professionnelle des enseignants et enseignantes du Québec is part of our group.
Mr. Boudreau: It is part of our federation.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: It is a part of your organization?
Mr. Boudreau: Yes. At the same time, we have very close ties with the Fédération des syndicats de l'enseignement. We will be meeting with them this weekend, for example.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Are you satisfied with the approach demonstrated by the various levels of government? Do you think they could do more? If not, apart from the recommendations you have submitted, what changes would you make?
Ms. Woloschuk: First we have to prioritize teaching French as a second language. This issue is critical. The same goes for immersion teaching.
I spent years watching students learn. And it is honestly inspiring seeing those students grow ever more confident by expressing themselves increasingly better in French, living as they do in Canada's bilingual reality. We need support, financial resources, and a renewed promotion of the teaching of French outside Quebec, where francophones are in the minority. Many anglophones want to learn French, but we need resources, and for teaching to be valued.
Mr. Boudreau: Ms. Woloschuk has already accompanied me to meetings of the Canadian Association of Second-Language Teachers, of which I was a member over the last two years. I have to admit that the stories I heard from the teachers were nearly terrifying. People were complaining of some atrocious teaching conditions.
I echo what the president says about working conditions and the valorization of the profession. It is clear that the latter is not currently seen as a great priority. When a teacher does not even have a classroom in which to teach, and all of the material is on a cart he or she has to push around from one place to the next, how can we expect a young person to master a language in those conditions? It is nearly unfathomable. We truly need a revitalization of the importance given to second-language teaching.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: The first level is the school board, correct? When, in a school, you have a poor teacher who has to walk around with their little cart, the first level of government you turn to is the school board. I do not know if there are school boards in other provinces, but Quebec has them.
Mr. Boudreau: School boards exist everywhere. However in our view, the solution lies in the revitalization of bilingualism in Canada, in a return to the idea that our graduating students should be bilingual. I believe school boards will follow the lead when we value second-language teaching once again. If we expect them to show the way however, I must say I will be less hopeful.
Senator Charette-Poulin: Ms. Woloschuk and Mr. Boudreau, I want to congratulate you. Ms. Woloschuk, you are the president of doubtless the most important association in the country. When you know the influence teachers have on our future leaders, our future employees and our future entrepreneurs, you know the future of the very essence of this country rests in their hands.
Mr. Boudreau, I appreciated your comment regarding the importance of taking the time now to better value the role and responsibilities of the teacher. I think everybody in this room can remember a teacher in elementary, high school or at the post-secondary level that changed their lives at a certain point.
Congratulations! You truly play a key role, and I thank you for being here.
You also spoke of promoting bilingualism as one of the great sources of pride in our country. Your third recommendation reads as follows:
That the Government of Canada take actions to return bilingualism to its rightful place as a national value and to promote Canadian bilingualism in a multilingual context.
I immediately thought of the ParticipACTION campaign that had a tremendous impact.
I will read back to you what a Statistics Canada official told us when he appeared before this committee, and I would like to hear what you have to say about it. His comments dealt specifically with promoting bilingualism, and I quote:
Learning and the ability to speak both official languages represents an important facet of the concept of Canadian linguistic duality. In 2011, 17.5 per cent of the country's population, or 5.8 million people, reported being able to conduct a conversation in English and French. This is a decrease from 2001, when this proportion peaked at 17.7 per cent. Among youth aged 15 to 19 years, 22.6 per cent could speak both languages in 2011, down from 24 per cent in 2001.
We know how, in North America, we are immersed in an English-speaking universe, one that is enriched by social networks. What would your recommendations be to reverse this trend, should it continue, and to make it so that in 10 years' time, in 2024, we would be able to say that 28 per cent of youths speak both official languages? What would your recommendations be?
Ms. Woloschuk: First, the message is essential; governments, at all levels, must insist in their messaging on the importance of bilingualism, on the ability to speak both official languages, as being part and parcel of the Canadian project.
Second, it is absolutely critical that financial resources be dedicated to the development of programs and to research focused on these issues.
As I said, I taught for a long time, but in the 1980s and 1990s, there were federal resources available to support language programs. Today, that no longer seems to be the case. You need those resources to support the programs.
Mr. Boudreau: If I may add something. . . I'm very happy when I hear you mention social media, because I am convinced that they are in large part at the heart of the transformation our young people are currently going through. In the same vein, I deplore the fact that many federal support programs that sought to increase the presence of French on the Web have been scrapped. These programs have all been abandoned. We did a study two years ago, on technology used by 15-year-olds, for example — in fact, we appeared before this very committee at the time — and we realized how technology is an assimilating factor. Given we no longer invest in increasing the presence of French on the Web, you will find a bunch of websites that were designed during the years we did get support and which were then abandoned. These sites are obsolete for the youth, and they are more prone to use English when they are surfing the Net. It is no secret of course that they spend a tremendous amount of time there.
Senator Charette-Poulin: I have a brief follow-up question. I completely agree with your respective analyses of the situation. Do teachers use social networks to be or stay in touch, or to discuss a particular school subject with their students?
Mr. Boudreau: Not enough, I would say, among other reasons because of the lack of resources. There have been investments in technology these last few years, but what is missing is a plan, a national vision on the use of technology in education. It is plain to see, everybody simply does as they see fit. Senator Fortin-Duplessis spoke earlier of that fact. As for national strategies to support second languages, I am convinced that technology has to be at the heart of the renewal. We have to give ourselves the means and the tools here in Canada to do it, and to do it well.
Ms. Woloschuk: There is something I would like to say on this point. We have a partnership with HabiloMédias, a group that is doing great work on this issue. Teachers are starting to explore the teaching possibilities of this technology. But there is also some hesitation, first because there is a concern about capabilities, and second because we want to avoid creating inequalities. While almost all students have a cell phone, for example, it does not necessarily mean that all indeed do. So we have to make sure that all students, without exception, can participate. If we plan a classroom activity during which the students will use their cell phone to fill out a survey on an issue, we do not want some students to be left aside. That is essential.
However, I agree that the students are constantly exploring in an English-speaking media culture. It is not even Canadian culture, it is really American. It has a profound influence on them.
Senator Charette-Poulin: I find it interesting to hear you say we need a Canadian project and a Canadian vision. It reminds me of when, in the early 1930s, as radio was taking off, a conservative prime minister thought it essential that Canadian public radio be used to balance access to culture for all Canadians.
We should one day have that Canadian project to rebalance access to information in English and in French.
Senator Rivard: Welcome to you both. Outside Quebec, bilingualism remains limited among immigrants and young anglophones. In the case of the latter, their knowledge of a second language reaches its peak during their schooling years and then wanes with age. In the case of young francophones outside Quebec, we see the opposite: they are at their most bilingual in their twenties. How do you explain these differences, and what is the state of second-language teaching among immigrants?
Ms. Woloschuk: Outside Quebec, I can talk about my own milieu. I grew up in a small francophone village. There were 39 students in 9th grade, of which 32 or 33 came from francophone families. I was probably the only one, among the dozen at most, who continued speaking French after leaving school. Saskatchewan is an English-speaking place. If one truly wishes to live in French, one must put in tremendous effort. My husband and I make up an exogamous family. He does not speak French, I am bilingual, and all of our children were in immersion programs. All three speak French. They are not necessarily comfortable with French, but they know the language and they can express themselves. Where will they be in 10 to 20 years? I honestly do not know. But they are going to have to take advantage of every opportunity to use their language, otherwise they will lose it. That almost happened to me: you perhaps notice that I sometimes have trouble expressing myself. I almost lost my French. It is only through great effort that I was able to continue speaking it. The issue is not an easy one.
Mr. Boudreau: It is clear that in francophone milieus outside Quebec, we can rightly speak, as we did earlier, of an American reality. It is not even English-Canadian, it is truly American. And it is also clear that the dynamic is not the same for francophones who wish to preserve their language outside Quebec. It is a challenge. You need a community that allows for it, that encourages it, and that is why we have made the connection between a mother tongue and a second language.
We have realized that, in the case of an English-speaking spouse or a new arrival to Canada who has learned French, if that person understands the reality of the francophones in their community, whether it be in Saskatchewan or any other minority community, that person who has learned French and who has understood what their French-speaking partner's reality is would be much more supportive of said partner and their efforts to speak French in the household. That is not so much the case somewhere where French was never really taught. There, the anglophones will perhaps worry that their kids are going to French school. They will wonder how to support them in their learning, how to participate in their school life. It takes tremendous courage on the part of the francophone spouse to stand their ground and say, ''My children will go to French school, no matter what you think.''
Obviously, when your spouse, whether anglophone or from an immigrant family, has learned French in a context that makes them appreciate what a challenge preserving your language is, he or she becomes supportive, unlike a person who does not understand the situation and simply wants to apply majority rule.
Ms. Woloschuk: I would like to add that when it comes to immigrants — and I do not have the numbers right now to back up this answer — I know they display a marked interest for giving their kids the best education possible. They see immersion programs as value-added and enriched. Students learn the same subject matter as in the anglophone program, but they learn it in French. So it is twice the learning. The program also gives them opportunities they might not otherwise have, such as cultural exchanges and trips abroad, and the opportunity to meet with other groups.
Senator Rivard: Quebec aside, do you find that French as a second language teachers are well-trained enough and in sufficient numbers in the other provinces?
Ms. Woloschuk: I think they are well-trained. As for sufficient numbers, I could not say. I know that school boards in western Canada, at least, are often forced to recruit teachers in Ontario and Quebec for Franco-Saskatchewanian and immersion schools. Oftentimes, immersion teachers will also teach basic French. Those are the teachers they would need to hire. There would then be enough qualified teachers to teach basic French.
Senator Rivard: Is it difficult to attract teachers from Quebec to Saskatchewan, Alberta or elsewhere in Canada? Can you offer them special conditions, say, like the isolation allowance paid to certain workers? As for recruitment, whether in Saskatchewan or Alberta or British Columbia, can we attract teachers by talking up the challenge of leaving Quebec to go and teach French as a second language elsewhere?
Mr. Boudreau: The problem you have raised is of particular interest to the CTF. We just had a meeting about it last week. A study is underway to look at the shortage of jobs for teaching staff and second-language teaching is of particular concern.
I know that Saskatchewan has abolished second-language teaching programs for lack of teaching staff. Given that the program is not compulsory, it becomes easier to simply abandon it than to make the necessary efforts to recruit, and that worries us.
Now, add to that the conditions in which second-language teaching staff has to work. I spent 20 years in the Halifax area, and it was not uncommon to see teachers give up after a few months because of the unacceptable working conditions they had.
When you know they have to teach French in three different schools and wolf down their sandwich in the car so they can make it to another school during lunchtime, you cannot blame a young Quebecer for preferring to go back home, to his parents' basement.
Ms. Woloschuk: I would like to add that, sometimes, we opt for different types of programs. For example, there are school boards that have started implementing French programs called ''Intensive French.'' Immersion usually begins in kindergarten, where the teaching is done nearly 100 per cent in French, and then it decreases a little bit every year.
''Intensive French'' is a program that can start in fifth or sixth grade, and students who have never heard a word of French find themselves in a classroom where the teacher speaks to them in French. They learn everything in French. It is instant immersion. However, this type of FSL teaching has not been tested long enough to determine whether the students who come out of it are more comfortable with French than students in immersion.
If there is indeed a dearth of teachers, one way to remedy the situation would be to offer this shortened program.
Senator Rivard: Thank you very much.
[English]
Senator Oh: Thank you, witnesses. I'm probably the only non-francophone speaker here today. I came from Singapore. There we have four official languages. From a young age we learn English, Chinese — Mandarin — Malay and Tamil. I was lucky; I picked up three.
Ms. Woloschuk: Good for you.
Senator Oh: Today the Speaker of the Malaysian Parliament came to the Parliament here, so I was able to practise my Malay a little bit more.
According to a recent study, learning a second language may have a range of benefits. Could you tell us about the benefits of bilingualism in terms of brain development?
Ms. Woloschuk: Actually, at our president's forum last July one of the presenters was a medical doctor from Winnipeg who is in charge of a program called Healthy Child Manitoba. He was our keynote speaker and gave quite a lengthy presentation about the importance of brain development for children and their learning. Learning languages, learning music, any symbolic system, creates connection and neurons in the brain that otherwise don't get connected. It's tremendously important for young children in particular to be in an environment that is healthy and supports their ability to learn, their growth and development.
We've done quite a bit of work at CTF on the impact of child poverty on children's learning in the last few years. There's evidence that some children, when they start school, depending on the environment in which they've been raised to that point, begin with a language deficit of a year and a half to two years. It's critical for brain development that children get that exposure to many types of learning — music, art, language, all of those things — but language is very important.
It's interesting that in some ways North America is a bit of an English island, although there's a lot of Spanish in the United States. It's striking when you look at school systems in other parts of world. Many of them put a heavy emphasis on language acquisition for their students to be multilingual. This is another reason why we believe so strongly at CTF that it's so important to put an emphasis on language development. These two languages are part of the identity of our country. It's just so important. So brain development, absolutely.
Senator Oh: Hopefully my brain is still developing, and I'll take up French this winter.
Ms. Woloschuk: Good for you.
The Chair: I understand it's much easier to pick up a third or fourth language once you are bilingual. You are already trilingual, so I look forward to speaking with you soon in French, Senator Oh.
Senator Oh: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Poirier: Do children who want to be in French immersion programs need to have francophone parents?
Ms. Woloschuk: No.
Senator Poirier: Do the majority of these kids come from families where one of the parents is francophone?
Ms. Woloschuk: I do not have any statistics regarding that. Our immersion students are drawn from the great diversity of Canadian society. Some have one francophone parent, while others are from an entirely francophone family. The great majority however do not have any francophone parents.
Senator Poirier: New Brunswick is an officially bilingual province. My situation is similar to yours: I was born in a francophone family, but I was raised in an area where there was no French school. My daughter married an anglophone and my three grandchildren learned both languages in their youth. They attend a francophone school. I can see how all of it is sometimes challenging.
The majority of francophones in New Brunswick decide to pursue their studies, once their elementary and high school education is done. The francophone majority has the choice to pursue them in English or in French. Do the students who have been through immersion have the choice to continue studying in either French or English, or is it a challenge for them to pick a post-secondary institution? Could they do well in a francophone high school? Also, do our universities and colleges offer courses that allow students to continue learning French?
Ms. Woloschuk: They do have that possibility, but they will be challenged. They have to perfect their French first. It is a kind of francization we see in French schools. A student may have one or two French-speaking parents, but he or she may have spoken very little French, or perhaps the parents themselves speak little French. By putting these kids through francization programs, they eventually get to where they can succeed without any support, and often very quickly. It is a little like students in immersion. Several students I taught followed courses to become French immersion or French-language teachers. It is like anything else in life: some have an easier time than others, but as long as there is a will, there is a way.
Senator Poirier: Are there effective programs in place, or is that still a challenge?
Ms. Woloschuk: I can only speak about universities I know. In western Canada, at the University of Manitoba, there is Saint-Boniface College. In Alberta, you have the Saint-Jean Faculty. The University of Regina offers a teaching degree in French. My sister taught in that program, so I have a good idea what it is about. As for the students, they have certain requirements, such as reaching a particular level in French, and they also have support to help them attain their goals.
Senator Poirier: In New Brunswick, the University of Moncton offers more or less all the programs we need, but I was wondering if English-language universities offer this type of program.
Mr. Boudreau: The Commissioner of Official Languages' hobby horse at this time is to encourage English-language universities to make more room for the second language, for these kids who have spent years learning French and who would perhaps like to continue their post-secondary education in an immersion context, or one in which French had its place. We certainly support the commissioner's initiative.
At the same time, we must continuously motivate the young anglophone and young immigrant. Almost all the kids who learned French want to maintain it. One of the ways to do that is to undertake post-secondary studies in French. Another is to work in French, or to have a francophone spouse, et cetera. However we have to give ourselves the means. Kids who have learned French as a second language in a certain sense go through the same thing as francophones trying to preserve their language. I really appreciate your question, because, yes, post-secondary education is part and parcel of the solution we need to strive for.
The Chair: You made a very interesting recommendation. The first one is to make the study of a second language mandatory in the curriculum and to integrate it into the provincial and territorial legislative framework so as to respect the fundamental right of Canadian students. How many provinces and territories have made second official language teaching mandatory?
Mr. Boudreau: If I may. . . In most cases, the program is mandatory in elementary school. In high school, you get a little bit of everything. It can be one of many optional classes a student can pick, but the student can choose physical education over French. The course is not in itself compulsory, though it may be part of a compulsory set.
In other cases, a French class is mandatory during the last three years. To the student, this becomes an annoying obligation. We believe that the legislative framework should carve out a place for French in the whole of school programming, so that kids who were used to having a French class in their day in elementary school may continue to have one in high school. It would be better if it were not presented as an obligation, because you have to find something to plug a hole somewhere.
Ms. Woloschuk: I have spent my whole life in the world of high school education. Subjects like biology, chemistry and math are highly valued, whereas bilingualism — not so much. That is truly a shame, because bilingualism is tied directly to a career, and to the requirements of certain university programs, programs that are highly prized by young people. There was a time when programs requiring a second language were more common.
I believe we will have to re-establish the value of a second language in all of society. Right now — in my province at least, where credits count — out of 300 grade 10 students, 50 will be in immersion, and perhaps another 30 registered for basic French classes. The other students will take classes that, in their view, will lead them to university or to post-secondary educational programs they wish to pursue.
Mr. Boudreau: I too am from New Brunswick, and English classes were compulsory until the end of high school. There was no question about it. But then, how could one second language now be more important than the other? One cannot help but wonder.
The Chair: In Alberta, I know there is no obligation to teach French, not even in elementary. In British Columbia, there is a curriculum requirement to learn a second language between the fifth and eighth grades, but the choice of language is up to the student. It could be Spanish, Mandarin, German or any other language besides one of Canada's official languages.
Francophones are guaranteed, under section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, access to a French school managed by francophones.
As for anglophones who wish to have access to an immersion program, for example, spaces are limited. I am thinking here of British Columbia and Calgary, where in the past you had lineups. Parents would wait hours on end to register their children, because there was no room.
Should anglophones who wish to learn French as a second official language be given that same right?
Ms. Woloschuk: Yes, absolutely.
Mr. Boudreau: It should be part of an official languages promotion strategy, to create support measures for provinces, and eventually, school boards, to implement equitable programming that makes it possible for all Canadians to learn a second language.
Ms. Woloschuk: You mentioned, a few minutes ago, that in Alberta, should you wish to learn another language, priority would not be given to French. It seems to me that simply learning another language is the point there, and that has more to do with the personal and individual desire to do so. At the CTF, we believe that learning French outside of Quebec is part of our country's national identity. Learning French is something more than simply learning another language for oneself. It is part of a larger project that is essential for our country as a whole.
The Chair: What role do you see for the federal government?
Ms. Woloschuk: Promoting the teaching of French. Promoting bilingualism in a major way across Canada. Dedicating resources to support French as a second language programs outside of Canada. I would also add implementing programs that will support French-language learning for francophone minority communities. I know it is not the topic we are studying today, but it is part of the range of supports we would like to see.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Are there provinces and territories that are doing better than others in this regard? You have the opportunity to see what is happening everywhere in Canada.
Mr. Boudreau: Without basing myself on any studies, I would suggest Prince Edward Island is a province where bilingualism is highly valued because of tourism. That is a reason, and as I say, there sometimes needs to be a reason. The provincial government promotes bilingualism because tourism is important there. Bilingual tourism is important. A large number of Quebec families visit the island during the summer, and these people expect to receive services in French. That has had an impact on second-language immersion programs, and on first-language French programs in P.E.I., since there is such a compelling reason to encourage people to commit to it. So without any figures or studies to support my assertion, I would say P.E.I. is doing well.
In fact, when I am in Charlottetown, it is not uncommon to be served in French in a restaurant by a young person who learned the language. It happened to me just last week. The young person waiting on us began speaking to me in French as soon as I spoke it. That is what we want. We want to be respected in our own language.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: As for the Territories — since there are a lot of francophones who have gone to settle there — do they have access to the same services as the other provinces? I was told that French was taught there. Do you know anything about that?
Ms. Woloschuk: Yes, there are immersion schools in Iqaluit, in Nunavut. There are schools in Yellowknife, in the Northwest Territories, and there is a school in both Whitehorse and Hay River, in the Yukon. In tiny communities I know in Saskatchewan, groups of parents have come together to ask their school board for an immersion program so that their children may learn French. If the group is sufficiently large, the school board is compelled to create one.
The Chair: You have focused immensely on culture, on the knowledge of French-Canadian culture, and on the understanding of that culture as well. What role could exchange programs play in supporting young people in their learning?
Mr. Boudreau: I have a personal example. I would not be bilingual today had I not, at age 16, travelled on an exchange trip to western Canada. That is clear. I come from a very francophone area of New Brunswick, where there is little contact with English. The exchange trip suddenly opened up a whole new world to me. I am convinced that is what convinced me to learn English enough to become bilingual.
And I am just as convinced that the same is true for a young anglophone taking part in an exchange trip to a francophone community, and discovering a slice of Canadian life that they would otherwise be unaware of.
I taught immersion in summer programs, and I still have friends from those years when they had the opportunity to rub shoulders with the francophonie. I will say it again: you do not learn a language without having a reason to live in it. That is crucial. We have to create all sorts of opportunities in which to do that, through exchanges or what have you, but also through a bilingualism promotion strategy throughout Canada.
The Chair: I wish to thank you very sincerely on behalf of the committee for having shared your personal stories and your expertise with the members here. I know your brief and your recommendations will be very useful and relevant to our committee's work. Once more, thank you very much.
(The committee adjourned.)