Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 11 - Evidence - Meeting of March 23, 2015
OTTAWA, Monday, March 23, 2015
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5 p.m., to continue its study on best practices for language policies and second-language learning in a context of linguistic duality or plurality.
Senator Claudette Tardif (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages.
I am Senator Claudette Tardif from Alberta, and I am the committee chair. Before we get started, I would ask the senators to introduce themselves, starting from my left.
Senator Poirier: Rose-May Poirier from New Brunswick.
Senator Seidman: Judith Seidman from Quebec.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Suzanne Fortin-Duplessis from Quebec City.
Senator Maltais: Ghislain Maltais from Quebec.
Senator McIntyre: Paul McIntyre from New Brunswick.
Senator Charette-Poulin: Marie Poulin from Ontario.
Senator Chaput: Maria Chaput from Manitoba.
The Chair: During this 41st Parliament, the Committee members are studying language policies and second- language learning in a context of linguistic duality or plurality. The goal of this study is to examine current policy, challenges and best practices for second-language learning in countries with two or more official languages. During its study, the committee, will examine both the Canadian and international perspectives.
Today, we will be hearing two panels of witnesses. First, it is our honour to welcome His Excellency Beat Nobs, Ambassador of Switzerland to Canada, and Urs Obrist, a science, research and education officer at the Swiss Embassy in Canada.
On November 27, 2014, I, together with our clerk and our analyst, had the pleasure of welcoming Ambassador Nobs and Mr. Obrist to a meeting, during which they gave a presentation on language learning in Switzerland and the teaching of foreign languages. At the end of the presentation, the Ambassador generously offered to appear before our committee in the context of this study.
Gentlemen, the committee members are extremely happy that you are here today to speak about the linguistic situation in Switzerland. I would invite His Excellency to proceed, and then, the senators will ask questions.
His Excellency Beat Nobs, Ambassador of Switzerland to Canada, Embassy of Switzerland to Canada: Madam Chair, senators, it is an honour to appear before the committee today to talk about language teaching in Switzerland. I am happy to be here and would like to thank my colleague, Mr. Obrist, who is an expert when it comes to details, for accompanying me. I will frequently turn to him when things get a bit more complicated.
Let me begin by describing the constitutional situation in Switzerland with regard to languages. To understand teaching, one needs to understand the situation on the ground.
Switzerland is made up of various regions, where four languages are spoken. Although this is correct from a legal standpoint, it is not quite true. I will explain why that is. Most Swiss people, that is, approximately two-thirds, are germanophones and are living in an African situation. I will explain what I mean by that.
About one-quarter of Swiss citizens are francophones who live in the western part of Switzerland. There are also italophones living in the south, who account for about 5 per cent of the population. In the southeast, there is a group of people who speak the fourth language, Romansch.
The territorial principle in Switzerland applies, that is, if you are a German speaker from the Lucerne canton in central Switzerland and you move to Geneva, you are required to use French for all correspondence with the authorities. If you are from Geneva and you move to Zurich for work, you are required to use only German.
Thus, language is not a matter of personal preference, but of territory. That is how Switzerland has managed to keep the peace from the very beginning. I would also say that, when it comes to linguistic peace in Switzerland, contrary to other countries like Canada, to a certain extent, and certainly in the case of Belgium, the differences among social groups in my country are not limited to language. Traditionally, in our federal state, there are French-speaking Protestant cantons, French-speaking Catholic cantons, city cantons, and German- and French-speaking agricultural cantons. The appeal of the various cantons is not based solely on language. That is important to understand.
Second, and the reason why I mentioned the African situation: people in Switzerland do not speak Standard German; they speak Swiss German (Schweizerdeutsch), which is a totally different language. However, they write in German. The situation is similar to that in Kenya, where I once worked. In Kenya, the Bantu tribes speak their own language, Kikuyu, but they usually write in English or Swahili.
Thus, for those of us who come from the western part of Switzerland, the first language we learn is always German, because we have to learn it to be able to write it. However, to say that Swiss German is not a written language — which is what I just said — is not entirely true. Well-educated young people, including one of my sons, who is currently working on his PhD in immunology, write only in Swiss German. The language is beginning to be codified among young people. If a codification existed today, no Swiss Germans would write in Standard German. Even I have begun writing to my sons in Swiss German. There is no right or wrong codification. There is no academy and no high priests in long gowns debating this issue. It is a living language.
The trend is clear. However, that complicates the situation. In the next segment of my presentation, I will address that point. Our fellow French- and Italian-speaking Swiss citizens learn German at school. Then, they cross linguistic borders and find that their German is not all that useful. That is an internal problem which complicates matters for us.
As you can imagine, language teaching is a very important matter in Switzerland. We live in a multicultural environment; therefore, for the sake of national cohesion and culture, we must ensure that we can all understand each other. Switzerland has always tried to do this. In Switzerland, education falls under cantonal jurisdiction, just as it falls under provincial jurisdiction in Canada. The federal government has little input, except in certain situations that are governed by law; however, the method of instruction is almost entirely under the jurisdiction of the cantons.
[English]
That brings us to the thorny issue of language teaching.
[Translation]
In Switzerland, the cantons have established among themselves, in principle, a three-five model. What does this mean? It means that students begin learning their first foreign language in the third grade. Then, in the fifth grade they begin learning the second one, because Switzerland is located in the centre of Europe.
Switzerland relies heavily on its exports. Unlike Canada, we do not have many natural resources, other than our grey matter and a bit of natural beauty which contributes to tourism. Thus, we need a highly educated population at the crossroads of the continent. In principle, until a few years ago, we had a clear system: The French-speaking cantons learned German; the German-speaking cantons learned French; and the mixed cantons, such as Ticino in the south, were allowed to choose. But, for pragmatic reasons, the inhabitants of many of the German-speaking cantons do not see the need to start with French because, when they begin their careers with the banks in Zurich, for example, they will be dealing with people in Hong Kong, Toronto or Montreal, where everyone is bilingual and the language of work is English. There are no international bankers' meetings where French is spoken. Since people are pragmatists, Calvinists — do not forget that, in Switzerland, there are Lutherans; they are Calvinists, like the Dutch and Scots, and they are people for whom money is important. For this reason, they think they should learn English first, because it is more useful.
But French-speaking Swiss citizens — and you are all francophones, which is interesting — place great importance on the French language in and of itself, not just as a means of communication. For this reason, the French-speaking cantons have pushed very hard for the German-speaking cantons to begin teaching French as the first foreign language. At present, it is hard to predict what direction the cantons will take. Although some cantons have voted against abolishing the second foreign language. . . because there was also that. . . the majority of people. . . As you know, the Swiss people decide everything by way of referendum. It is not Parliament that decides; it is us, the people. In general, Swiss people have come to realize that we need to keep teaching two foreign languages, but which two? That is currently under discussion. In a moment, I will turn to Mr. Obrist, who will provide further details on this debate.
I would like to go back to a point I made earlier regarding the role of Swiss German. Swiss German is not a dialect like Québécois French which, generally speaking, has the same grammar but some different expressions and pronunciations. Swiss German is a language that is grammatically related to, but distinct from, German. The modulation is different; the feeling of those who speak it is different. When I speak German, I feel like I am speaking a foreign language. I speak it quite fluently, but I do not speak it from the heart. Most French-speaking Swiss people realized this, and are now starting to learn Swiss German. This is an important development because it allows speakers of Swiss German to understand the concept of national cohesion beyond the monetary considerations which — let us be frank — would lean toward teaching English first. As in Canada, it is something we care deeply about. I will now turn to my colleague, Urs, who will further explain the three-five model.
Urs Obrist, Science, Research and Education Officer, Embassy of Switzerland to Canada: It is a pleasure to be here to talk to you about Switzerland's pedagogical system and to provide additional information about the three-five model discussed in the presentation.
In Switzerland, there are 26 cantons, 14 of which introduce English as the first foreign language taught. The other 12 cantons introduce one of Switzerland's national languages. As the Ambassador mentioned, it is a political issue because French is part of Swiss culture, whereas English is the language of business. Consequently, there is tension between these two aspects. In fact, about three weeks ago, on March 8, a vote took place which served as an example for several Swiss movements. In the small canton of Nidwalden, people had an opportunity to vote on whether French should remain as the first foreign language taught in the third grade. The people of this small canton voted 62 per cent in favour of maintaining French as the first foreign language taught.
That said, the debate is ongoing and we are right in the middle of the discussion because the first cantons that introduced English at the end of the 20th century are just now graduating the first cohort of students who completed all of their studies under the three-five model, with early English beginning in the third grade. Moreover, we have begun conducting studies to identify and better understand the effects of introducing a language that is not one of our national languages, and its impact on Switzerland and on language teaching in our country. I will stop now and give the floor to Senator Tardif for questions. You have already been given a map of Switzerland that offers a colour-coded representation of the three-five model. I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.
The Chair: First, thank you for your excellent presentation. There is already a list of senators who would like to ask questions. The first will be asked by the Vice-Chair of the committee, Senator Fortin-Duplessis. She will be followed by Senator Charette-Poulin.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Mr. Ambassador, I really appreciate your being here this evening. I would also like to thank Mr. Obrist. You mentioned that language teaching falls under cantonal jurisdiction. We have learned that various measures have been taken in Switzerland in recent years to foster foreign-language learning at the primary level. I would like to know what measures have been taken. Secondly, I would also like to know whether the Swiss Confederation allocates supplementary funding for the implementation of these measures.
Mr. Nobs: We just explained the three-five system. The cantons all agreed to implement this system, beginning in the third grade for the first foreign language and the fifth grade for the second. Now, yes, there is some support from the Confederation. It is moral support.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: And not financial support.
Mr. Nobs: Support in the form of words, not funding per se. Funding is a matter of cantonal jurisdiction, except in the case of Italian and Romansch, which benefit from special protection, traditional minority protection. Everything else is the responsibility of the cantons. Therefore, they are also responsible for funding.
The same is true for teacher training. The training of teachers at the canton level is entirely the responsibility of the cantons. Unlike other countries, we do not have such things as national exams where one day in April all students of a certain age across the country are assembled and, at 8 a.m. on the dot begin answering the same math questions. Everything is really federalized.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Have you observed that some cantons do better than others? Is there anything you would like to add?
Mr. Obrist: Yes. I would like to elaborate on the comments made by the Ambassador. A framework was established in 2004. The Swiss conference of cantonal directors of public education, the CDIP, is responsible for public education and helped implement a national strategy for the development of language teaching in Switzerland. We came to a compromise of sorts. As you have already heard, there are quite a few competing interests. To harmonize procedures and instruction in schools, which is also managed by the cantons, we decided that there should be a sort of umbrella organization to allow the federation to contribute to the harmonization. This effort began slowly, but there was, nonetheless, some financial support from the national government under the legislation and decree on languages, to promote school exchanges in Switzerland. A budget of 1,050,000 francs a year has been allocated to promote language exchanges in Switzerland. This financial assistance is made possible thanks to support from the ch Foundation.
This base funding goes to such things as consulting, project support, assessment, and the publication of educational, training and communication materials. There are also school programs, compulsory schooling and mandatory positions. There are also projects for basic occupational training. We are beginning to provide more funding in these areas at the primary and secondary levels, that is, the compulsory levels. At the post-secondary and university levels, exchange programs already exist with universities in Europe and under the Erasmus program. Several million francs are also invested in this sector.
In terms of compulsory schooling, we are starting to invest more and more. We realize that people are not moving from one canton to another to take part in language exchanges for the sake of pleasure, because there are costs and expenses involved. Switzerland's federal office for culture also has an interest in supporting these exchanges.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: In my last question I asked if, to your knowledge, some cantons are doing better than others.
Mr. Nobs: A report to be published this year may contain certain findings. Based on our own experience, we have found that Switzerland's Italian-speaking inhabitants often do the best when it comes to using the three languages because they are forced to. They have no choice. They cannot hide. It is a matter of survival for them. They achieve a very high level of proficiency in all three languages and do quite well.
Mr. Obrist: The situation today is the result of a gradual evolution. The cantons introduced their language teaching changes at different times. The canton of Zurich was the first to support it. After 12 years, the other cantons have reached the same point. There is a lack of comparative studies, but you can see what is happening with the schoolchildren who are being taught under the new system. The common European framework states that level A1.2 must be attained by the sixth or eighth grade. We have to wait for the results before comparing cantons. In any case, the cantons are linguistically different. Residents of the canton of Graubünden speak three languages. The canton of Appenzell is very different. It is somewhat difficult to make a straightforward comparison.
Senator Charette-Poulin: Thank you very much. Your presentations and your answers to my colleague's questions show how language education is truly a priority in Switzerland and how it promotes, as you said, cohesion and culture and ensures people understand each other.
Have you done research on the development of the brain among people who speak at least two or three languages, as in your region?
Mr. Nobs: It is hard to say how many languages people speak. In Switzerland, compared with other countries, I would say that many people speak more than one language.
Senator Charette-Poulin: Do you have access to or has Switzerland been involved in brain development research on people who speak one language compared with people who speak more than one language?
Mr. Nobs: I am not aware of any Swiss study, but tests have been done around the world, and it appears that when a child starts to learn a second language it changes the connections of the synapses in the brain and facilitates the next stages of development.
The first step is the hardest, and after that it gets easier. But I do not think any studies have been done. Are there studies? Yes, there are studies. Mr. Obrist has all the documents.
Mr. Obrist: If I may add something, in 2011, the International Journal of Multilingualism published a study on the effects entitled "Introducing a second foreign language in Swiss primary schools: the effect of L2 listening and reading skills on L3 acquisition."
In summary, the study showed that even if students first learn English, which is not a national language, it will help them learn French and throughout their education.
Here, I should mention language instruction, which has changed a lot in recent years. Today, instruction focuses on introducing techniques: how to learn a language and how to use it in everyday situations.
This approach works very well with English. The techniques and knowledge acquired starting in third grade can be applied to learning other languages later.
For German speakers, English is clearly a little easier to learn than French, because the two languages have more in common. But even taking this into account, the results show that this approach helps with language learning later.
Senator Charette-Poulin: I was thinking that the brain develops so well while learning other languages that it can more easily learn mathematics and this explains why the financial sector is so well served by our great Swiss bankers.
Mr. Obrist: There was an article a few days ago that explained how learning a second language changes an individual's personality. I do not know the exact details, but it is clear that in learning a language you learn a different culture.
Senator Charette-Poulin: Has Switzerland identified any economic benefits of multilingualism?
Mr. Nobs: Yes. As I said, economically, the benefits are clear. Switzerland's economic success has always been based on having an educated population, of which language education is but one element. There are other components, but this multiculturalism and multilingualism was a very important prerequisite because, as I said, Switzerland has no resource industries. We have nothing except water, so we had to educate ourselves, and as a country that spoke Swiss German — a language understood only in Liechtenstein — we had to develop our language skills. Historically, this was very important for us and for our success.
Senator Charette-Poulin: Thank you very much.
Senator McIntyre: Gentlemen, we appreciate your being here with us tonight.
We all know that parents play a central role in determining what languages their children will speak. Tell us a bit about the role of parents in Switzerland. Do you think Swiss parents and immigrant parents are made sufficiently aware of language issues and the value of second-language and national language learning?
Mr. Nobs: As I said, Swiss parents, like all parents, want the best for their children. In the Swiss context, parents know that children need advanced education and that this education automatically includes language learning. University entrance exams and trades education exams always have a language component. Society clearly values learning one or more foreign languages.
The effect is even stronger for immigrant families than native Swiss families because when, for example, Spanish, Portuguese or Turkish immigrants arrive in Switzerland, they face languages that are foreign from their perspective. Like all parents, they naturally want their children to do as well as possible in society. Therefore, they adopt the values of Swiss society and follow its practices.
Let me give you an example. I worked with a Swiss man of Spanish origin who was the son of a Spanish couple who immigrated to Lausanne, in the French-speaking part of Switzerland. Later in his life, he studied at the Federal Institute of Technology of Lausanne. He then found a job in Berne as a federal official. He specifically chose to live in Berne because it was German-speaking. Therefore, at home, his family spoke French and Spanish, while at school the children spoke German. And on Saturdays he sent his children for Chinese lessons to prepare them for the future. He believed that his children needed to speak Chinese to do well. This example shows how deeply we value languages.
Senator McIntyre: I would like to examine with you the different approaches to second-language learning. As we all know, different approaches to second-language learning are used around the world, such as basic language programs, bains linguistiques, intensive programs and immersion.
What models were adopted in Switzerland? Has one of them proved more effective for second-language learning? If so, which one?
Mr. Obrist: As I said, the transformation process in Switzerland is ongoing. There are a lot of quite different models. It is hard to say that one model is the best and works for everyone.
Senator McIntyre: It is a combination of all these models?
Mr. Obrist: Yes. What we have seen is that teaching has to use contemporary tools. Students love to work with computers. Many language programs are offered using software, so there is a direct connection for children. They can work on a computer. It is not learning with the teacher at the blackboard with all the pupils taking notes. A lot has changed.
What is taught must also relate to everyday life. The curricula enable students to acquire life skills, such as how to ask for directions or ask a stranger basic questions. For compulsory schooling, up to ninth grade, the goal is to help them get to a level where they can get by. The emphasis is on written comprehension and oral communication, while writing skills are taken up at HarmoS levels 10 and 11. The idea is to encourage children to speak and interact with others. In-class teaching should relate to their interests. They are taught chemistry in French so that they learn French and chemistry at the same time.
Mr. Nobs: I would like to add one thing. I believe that the field of linguistics has demonstrated that the ideal is immersion. The evidence in Canada is that immigrant children are speaking several languages.
Teaching is about bringing students close to something, and creating the atmosphere of a language helps. I taught English for a long time, and I noticed that the closer I stayed to reality, the better students did.
Immersion is not always easy, but I believe in it. In Switzerland, unfortunately, we have not used this approach enough because of the Swiss German situation. We did not have poor little children from Geneva who could not understand anything. That was not why they wanted to come; they wanted to learn German. That is why we did not adopt immersion. We have started recently, but it costs money and requires some logistical work. I truly believe that immersion breeds success. I watched Mr. Mulcair on television yesterday, and he is perfectly bilingual. This happens only if people are truly exposed to the language.
Senator Maltais: Ambassador, Mr. Obrist, it is an honour and a privilege to have you here. You spoke about immigration. Here in America, we are all immigrants, except for the Aboriginal peoples, who were here before us. Therefore, our languages and cultures date back 500 years. We do not have thousands of years of history like you do.
I am curious about one thing: Switzerland has a confederal Parliament. What language is spoken there?
Mr. Nobs: It is like the United Nations. Everyone speaks their own language. Sorry, that is not totally correct. Romansh speakers do not, as it would cost too much. We are Calvinists, so cost is always a factor. But everyone else has the right to speak their language. Romansh is a national language, but not an official language. The official languages can be used for communications between the public and federal officials. It is an official language in the canton of Graubünden.
Senator Maltais: Interesting. I have another question, concerning universities. Let me give you a very simple example: a young man from Basel who studies in Geneva. In what language would he study?
Mr. Nobs: It depends. At the undergraduate level, he would study in German or French. After that, in the sciences or economics, the answer is clear: English is the only option.
Mr. Obrist: If I may add something, that is absolutely right, but at the master's level, some programs are in English only, but not all. It depends on the university. Universities decide which subjects will be taught in English. However, at the undergraduate level, territorial laws apply.
Mr. Nobs: But in the sciences, you have no choice. They are taught in English only. The Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich is the top university in continental Europe, and it is English-only, simply because more than half the professors are Chinese, American, German, Dutch, et cetera. This university is not a national university, but an international one, like Harvard. For it, there is no language issue.
Senator Maltais: The Swiss are a very proud people. This is recognized internationally. They walk with their heads held high because they are proud of what they have accomplished over the centuries. What unites the Swiss people culturally, even as they speak different languages?
Mr. Nobs: Direct democracy.
Senator Maltais: Through ongoing referenda.
Mr. Nobs: Yes. And federalism, like in Canada. Centralism, as well, but direct democracy mainly. Switzerland is not a member of the European Union for certain economic reasons, obviously, as we do well without them, but also because we take pride in making our own decisions. I am answering as a Swiss citizen, not as an ambassador.
Senator Poirier: Thank you for appearing before the committee. Your presentation was very interesting and appreciated. One of the challenges in second-language learning in Canada is a lack of qualified teachers. Is this also a problem in Switzerland?
Mr. Obrist: I do not believe it is a major problem for us. We had a difficult period, but generally, we have few problems. In the context of our reforms, as we introduce English early, we also have to train primary school teachers. Clearly, this takes work and costs money. We are doing a lot of work. For example, we are setting up exchanges not only among students, but also among teachers so that they can spend a few months in the French-speaking part of Switzerland or the German-speaking cantons. We are making the necessary effort, and we know what has to be done. In general, I believe our approach is working quite well.
Senator Poirier: If I understood correctly, you said that schoolchildren learn one language in third grade and another in fifth grade. That means they are speaking three languages: their native language and two other languages.
You also said that schoolchildren are mainly taught to speak these languages in primary school, while they learn to write the languages at the secondary level. Is that correct?
Mr. Nobs: Not entirely. As you might expect, Mr. Obrist was referring to the period in which we learned French. It was a bit like the Japanese system. The system is different today. We want to teach schoolchildren how to use a language, so learning how to speak that language comes first. But, in theory, everything is taught, and more is taught if there is time.
Senator Poirier: You said that most of those who finish twelfth grade have learned three languages. Can they use all of these languages on the job market or do they need to continue studying them at university to master them?
Mr. Obrist: Swiss educational institutions follow the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages. After the sixth grade (HarmoS level 8), children will have reached the A1.2 level, but the long-term goal is the A2.1 level. By ninth grade (HarmoS level 11), children should be at the A2.2 level in two foreign languages. This is a high level. In addition, they will have their native language as a third language.
The idea is to give high school graduates, after 12 years of schooling, the ability to work in places where a language other than their native language is spoken.
Senator Chaput: Gentlemen, this is such a fascinating discussion that I could continue it for hours. My question follows up on one asked by my colleague Senator Poirier. It concerns teachers.
The cantons are responsible for hiring teachers. Regarding the pool of candidate teachers, is it established at the national level or do the cantons do their own recruitment? They do it themselves?
Mr. Nobs: Yes, they do their own recruitment and their own training. Today, they can hire teachers from another canton, but because Switzerland is a confederation, no canton would assume that the teachers in the neighbouring canton were as well educated as its own. They could not be hired. The mindset was somewhat provincial.
This has changed, partly because of a shortage of teachers. Foreigners had to be hired. This became possible when Switzerland signed bilateral agreements with the European Union to provide mutual labour market access. In the eastern cantons, it was easy to hire German teachers, for example.
However, from a cultural standpoint, this often caused problems. Swiss children behave differently from German children. German teachers came into Swiss classrooms thinking they were teaching German children. There were problems. But, today, I believe enough teachers have been trained to satisfy the market. Shortages no longer exist.
Senator Chaput: At the national level, are there certain standards for the quality of education?
Mr. Nobs: There are standards, because the market requires it, but there are not any standards imposed by the federal government.
Senator Chaput: So they are market-driven standards?
Mr. Nobs: Yes, there are levels that were developed cooperatively.
Mr. Obrist: As for teachers, each canton does not have a school to train teachers.
Senator Chaput: No, I understand.
Mr. Nobs: But larger cantons do have them.
Mr. Obrist: There are agreements with universities who train teachers based on the level of training they want, whether they want to teach at the primary or secondary school level. Those exist.
Senator Chaput: With regard to the costs associated with having teachers take these training courses, are the cantons always the ones responsible for the costs?
Mr. Obrist: There are agreements between the cantons and the training centres.
Senator Chaput: Okay, thank you. Madam Chair, may I ask one more question?
The Chair: The clerk is telling us that our time is up, because our next witness is waiting to begin their videoconference.
[English]
Senator Seidman: Thank you very much for your presentation. You talked a lot about the responsibilities and the powers of the canton. I'm interested in the responsibilities and the powers of the federal government. What would you say those would be with regard to language in Switzerland?
Mr. Nobs: I want to make this absolutely clear. It's a fundamental right of every canton to control education. Over the last few years or so, some federal initiatives have been launched to harmonize, to ensure national cohesion is guaranteed, things of that nature, but not when it comes to curriculum, not when it comes to any other prescription that would be necessary to undertake as schooling in the cantons. This is a very jealously defended right, and the federal government has to tread very carefully when imposing on that.
We had a case just recently when our Minister of Education, who is a French-speaker and took this to heart, intervened publicly when the discussion came up of whether or not the first language taught should be the other major national language or it could be English, and he stepped in. The cantons did not like that at all. That's why Mr. Obrist pointed out the fact.
They receive just over 1 million Swiss francs a year from the federal government, so it's very little and they have to be very careful.
Mr. Obrist: That is an element of the canton perception. At the same time, because there are national education strategies that call for harmonization, it automatically requires that the cantons collaborate. At the point they come to a loggerhead or a problem, the federal government would then step in and say, "We have this harmonization agreement with national education standards. We don't necessarily care how you achieve those standards, but we, as a top-notch institution, want to survey and make sure there is maintenance of these national educational standards."
Mr. Nobs: They would rather plead than enforce.
Senator Seidman: Right.
Do you have statistics on levels of speaking a second language, third language in Switzerland? I know you're in the process of changing things and that your statistics only now ask certain types of questions, but in the past have you kept statistics that would indicate what proportion of the population is bilingual, trilingual, and according to age category?
Mr. Obrist: The federal office of statistics has started to really get a stronger overview of that. We're happy to provide the numbers we have. It is somewhat fragmented but there is definitely material to send you.
I can also strongly recommend — and we're happy to put you in contact with — the Centre scientifique de compétence sur le plurilinguisme. They are situated in Fribourg, which is right at the language border in Switzerland, so they definitely have material. We can also connect you with the Swiss delegate for plurilingualism, Madam Mariolini, who will be in Canada later on this year. We can definitely provide you with statistical information.
The Chair: If you could provide the committee with that information and send it to the clerk, it would be most appreciated.
[Translation]
Senator Chaput: In your experience, what are the top three elements for ensuring optimal second-language learning?
Mr. Nobs: Immersion, immersion and immersion. I saw that firsthand with my three sons. We lived in New Zealand for a time and they became Kiwi speakers. That is the best way to learn. However, things are not always that easy. We cannot send all students to live in these regions, but it is good practice.
In my opinion, three things need to be considered. First, societal values. Multilingualism must be seen as an asset. Second, teacher training. Third, as always, financial considerations. In modern societies, nothing can be achieved without adequate funding.
Mr. Obrist: If I can add something, I think it is important to mention exchanges, as well. Exchanges are another form of immersion, and they really add to the experience. This is a new focus and, even in Switzerland, we are looking to promote exchanges.
The Chair: Unfortunately, our time is up. Mr. Ambassador, Mr. Obrist, thank you for your valuable contributions to our study and for making yourselves so readily available. Rest assured that your comments and thoughts will be carefully considered as our study progresses.
The committee hopes to travel to your country on an official visit so we can better understand the context in which official language learning practices evolve. You have told us about a number of new initiatives, and also given us your opinion about the initiatives you put forward. We would be honoured to visit your country if our fact-finding trip takes place.
Honourable senators, the next part of our meeting will focus on hearing from young people and parents about second-language learning. We are happy to welcome, by videoconference from Quebec City, Mr. Marc Charland, Executive Director of the Quebec Federation of Parents' Committees. From the Fédération de la jeunesse canadienne- française, we welcome Mr. Alec Boudreau, President, and Ms. Josée Vaillancourt, Executive Director. Welcome to each of you.
I invite Mr. Charland to give his presentation. We will then hear from Mr. Boudreau. After the presentations, senators will ask questions. Over to you, Mr. Charland.
Marc Charland, Executive Director, Quebec Federation of Parents' Committees: Thank you for this invitation.
[English]
Many thanks to committee members for showing interest in this subject.
[Translation]
I would like to start off with a few words of introduction. The mission of the Federation of Parents' Committees is to defend and promote the rights and interests of parents and students in public schools in Quebec. It derives its legitimacy from having a designated parents' representative for every public school, at the school's general parents' meeting, sit on the school board's parents' committee.
The federation represents both francophone and anglophone parents' committees.
[English]
Parental involvement in school structures remains important in Quebec. We estimate that more than 18,000 parents give time and share their expertise to improve their children's schools from the perspective of developing their communities and Quebec society.
For close to 40 years now, the federation has been concerned with the future of our young people.
[Translation]
When it comes to language learning, parents in Quebec, like parents everywhere, want what is best for their children. As for learning a second language, they know how important it is, so their children can fulfill their dreams later in life, whether they be dreams in their personal or professional lives, or dreams to travel or contribute to their own culture, at home or away.
Since studies show that learning a second language improves cognitive development for every type of learner, parents are open to it. They also are aware that studies show that, to communicate comfortably in a second language, most people need more than 1,200 hours of instruction. To be fully bilingual requires more than 4,000 hours of instruction or of contact with the language. Parents know that this level of exposure cannot be reached only at school.
In fact, in a recent brief, the Conseil supérieur de l'éducation du Québec discussed the complex linguistic balance to be maintained when developing new English second language courses at the primary level, so that the vitality of the French language is maintained, on the one hand, and English is taught effectively, on the other hand.
The conditions they identified may include using appropriate educational methods, ensuring that sufficient time is allotted and that qualified and competent specialists are present.
I would like to take a few minutes to outline the situation in Quebec as regards the anglophone and francophone systems for second-language learning. On the francophone side, there are around 2,000 schools overseen by 60 school boards. Under the current curriculum, students spend approximately 80 hours a year in English class at the primary level, and up to 200 hours a year in early high school, that is, Secondary I and II, which is equivalent to Grades 7 and 8 outside of Quebec.
The purpose of this English instruction is to encourage engagement in reading comprehension, oral interaction, reinvesting in textual comprehension, whether oral or written, and even writing certain texts. Ideally, by the end of high school, students should be able to communicate in English well enough to meet their basic needs and to continue to explore their areas of interest in a society that is constantly changing. That is what the Ministry of Education expects.
Over the last few years, parents have called for improvements to the English curriculum. Currently, there are a number of intensive English programs being introduced in the later years of primary school, in Grade 5 or 6, as well as specific programs in secondary school that are designed to help francophones learn English as their second language.
However, children who are currently following the regular curriculum will fall short of the 1,200 hours they need to communicate fluently. On the anglophone side, the situation is as follows.
[English]
The Quebec English language public school system serves approximately 115,000 students under the jurisdiction of nine school boards across the province. As you are aware, access to instruction in English is largely limited to children whose father or mother received instruction in English in Canada.
[Translation]
Another challenge is that the majority of the students at some anglophone schools speak French at home. I will give you a brief overview of the primary and secondary school programs that are offered by the English Montreal School Board and the Eastern Township School Board. I would invite you to refer to the website noussommesbilingues.ca by the English Montreal School Board for more information. At the primary school level, there are a number of programs.
[English]
First, there are the core schools, where the majority of the language of instruction is in English but an important part is also done in French.
Second, there is French immersion, sometimes called the bilingual schooling. The language of instruction is 50 per cent English and 50 per cent French. Most of the schools that follow the bilingual school program alternate daily or weekly.
Full immersion is the third way. The language of instruction is approximately 80 per cent in French and 20 per cent in English. We understand that up until Grade 3 the language of instruction is only French. After that, there is a combination of course content in English and French.
[Translation]
At the secondary school level, a number of French programs are available to anglophone students. Whether they are French first language classes, classes taught in French, or French second language classes, these programs provide French instruction ranging between 38 per cent and 73 per cent of class time, which is a very significant proportion.
The fundamental reason for this process is to have students know French as well as they know English, and the school boards are very proud of their results. Quebec's anglophone public schools are pioneers in developing language immersion programs, and they have had very high success rates in this area.
As for francophone public schools, they have had success with enriched English programs, but there are still some challenges to be overcome, and that will be the last issue I address here. The initial training for instructors is still a challenge. Teaching a second language requires special skills, not only in terms of language fluency, but also in terms of mastering educational methods and understanding the cultural environment.
We know that universities receive many applications for initial training and that time is still limited. There are not enough second-language teachers in Quebec right now. We need to find ways to encourage people to take these career paths. Young teachers often face many challenges, including access to continuous learning.
What is the role of experienced teachers? Could they play a mentoring role? I think that is something that should be considered. Lastly, we need to consider how to go beyond the classroom. Extracurricular activities or exchange programs that take place during the school year or during school breaks could be very worthwhile.
However, when it comes to encouraging disadvantaged or outlying areas or offering more equal opportunities, we believe the government can have a role to play. I would like to close my presentation by thanking you for this opportunity. I am always available to answer any questions from the members of the committee.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Charland. We will now hear from Mr. Boudreau.
Alec Boudreau, President, Fédération de la jeunesse canadienne-française: Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, members of the committee. First of all, let me begin by saying that, as an organization representing French-speaking young people in this country since 1974, we support the principle of action by and for young people. The Fédération de la jeunesse canadienne-française works to ensure that young people can be heard during events such as today's.
On behalf of the FJCF, I would like to thank you very much for having invited us to appear before you this afternoon to discuss the best practices for language policies and second-language learning in a context of language duality or plurality.
The primary mandate of the FJCF is to represent the interests of young Canadians who speak French and live in minority francophone communities. According to the most recent data from Statistics Canada, this group includes roughly 450,000 people between the ages of 14 and 25, who speak French as their first or second language in Canada outside of Quebec.
Our federation also plays a role in creating a variety of activities to ensure these young people can experience life in French at both a national and a local level, through our 11 youth organizations in nine provinces and two territories.
In the Throne Speech given at the opening of the 37th Parliament, the federal government confirmed that "linguistic duality is fundamental to our Canadian identity and is a key element of our vibrant society. The protection and promotion of our two official languages is a priority of the Government — from coast to coast."
I would like to briefly tell you about my own personal experience learning a second official language. Like many francophones in minority communities, I have a mixed linguistic heritage. My mother is an anglophone and my father is a francophone who lost his first language at a very young age. Therefore, despite my Acadian roots, I did not have the opportunity to live life in French. For a number of reasons, my parents found it easier to enrol me in an anglophone school's French immersion program, despite my status as a rights holder. Therefore, until Grade 6, I was part of the French immersion program.
It was not until I was 12 that I made the personal choice to study in French so I could better understand my roots. I participated in events for young francophones in Louisiana, France, Ottawa, and Edmonton and in many cities and towns in the Maritimes, outside of the school context, and those moments are what really gave me an understanding of the importance of my language and my culture. That is what motivated me to increase my knowledge of French and developed my sense of pride and belonging to my culture. If I had attended a francophone school, I would not necessarily have understood the importance of my language, if I had not participated in these cultural experiences.
I learned a lot through these experiences, and I was very lucky to have had these opportunities. However, whether we are talking about French immersion students of first-language French students, there are too few opportunities to experience and practice French outside the walls of the school. It is by participating in events like the Canadian Francophone Games, Accros de la Chanson, Petit Canada or the north-western francophone youth parliament that we can come alongside other young people who are experiencing the same things we are, and that we can live out our francophonie. These events are becoming important cultural reference points and for many years now they have been real teaching opportunities.
The FJCF and its members provide opportunities for young people from all over the country to discover, exchange and learn. I myself learned about my francophone heritage through the Fédération des jeunes francophones du Nouveau-Brunswick, and not from my parents or in the classroom, despite their efforts. In short, to learn a language, you have to live the language.
The national approach, particularly with programs through the Council of Ministers of Education, Canada, or CMEC, is based on the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages, CEFR, which is the result of a long-term European study that began in 1991. The CEFR recommends learning based on a communicative approach and on carrying out the suggested activities as much as possible in real life and in everyday life.
In addition to using this framework, CMEC developed two initiatives that contribute directly to second-language learning: the Explore and Odyssey programs. The Explore program is a five-week immersion opportunity to learn a second language in another region of the country. It has been running for more than 40 years, and is the longest- running initiative for second-language learning in the country.
The Odyssey program places language monitors in a region of the country. The monitors are there to share the vitality and rich culture of their language with the students studying it as a second language. Francophones are placed in anglophone areas, or minority francophone areas, to share their language, and vice versa for anglophones.
In addition, as part of its Youth Employment Strategy, the federal government has invested in the Young Canada Works program. This program has two components that actively contribute to learning a second language: the Young Canada Works in Both Official Languages component, and the Languages at Work — Langues et Travail component. The Both Official Languages component creates summer jobs where part of the work, or a criteria of the work, is in the participant's second official language. The Languages at Work — Langues et Travail component is designed to complement the Explore program.
In conclusion, we believe the federal government must continue to invest in the learning programs we mentioned. These programs are essential to ensure participants can complete their language development with a view to acquiring and developing the use of their second language. While classroom learning is important, we strongly believe that second language development is achieved through experiences, and that being part of the culture is linked to an on-the- ground experience. Investing in events that bring people together, cultural activities, job programs, et cetera, is therefore essential and provides students with an opportunity to put into practice the language learned at school. Forming partnerships with organizations that can offer this type of experience is a practice that the FJCF encourages.
With the 150th anniversary of Confederation around the corner, we believe it is important for the federal government to remind citizens of the importance of linguistic duality, which was the cornerstone of the creation of our country. Linguistic duality is one of our greatest assets.
The Chair: Thank you. It is inspiring to hear from a young person who is so passionate.
Mr. Boudreau: Thank you to you also.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Thanks to you three for being here. And thank you to Mr. Charland, who appeared via videoconference.
My first question is for Mr. Boudreau. Thank you for sharing your experience about how you learned French.
What about promoting to young people? Is someone looking after promotion? As young francophones, you spend time with each other, you have classmates. Have you noticed whether any efforts are being made to reach young people, to promote French-language learning to anglophones or French-language learning in general? Have you noticed whether young people are getting the sense of the importance of learning the other official language?
Mr. Boudreau: I can speak from experience. Thank you, senator, for your question. During my first years at French school I was the student who spoke English the most in the halls and in class. What really changed my perception of the francophone community was an experience I had in Louisiana where I met with young people my age who were trying so hard to preserve their francophone culture despite all the injustices committed against the Cajun people. That is when I understood the gift I had been given of being able to study in French and participate in the francophone community with far fewer obstacles than these young people. That is an experience I will always remember.
In talking with other young people who feel very drawn to the francophone community, this realization about the francophone community does not often come out of an experience at school. In Nova Scotia at the Conseil jeunesse provincial there is an annual event called Prends ta place! where young francophones from across the province get together to talk about identity. That is where most young people have their realization.
I do not know if I have enough time to share a short anecdote but I will try to be brief. A friend told me about his moment of realization. It was at that event a few years ago that a girl of about 14 or 15 told a personal story about when she heard for the first time in her life her father speaking in French on the telephone.
At the age of 15 she had never heard her father speak one word in French. When she told him how surprised she was, he told her that he did not think his French was good enough to have a conversation with her. That was a difficult moment for everyone in the room, especially for those young people in minority communities. I believe we have all had similar experiences. I talked about my own experience, about my father who had lost his language. My father and I have never spoken to each other in French. I do with my grandparents but not with him. For me and for promoting the language it comes down to these experiences. That is where we learn the most and we most clearly see the beauty of the language and the importance of protecting and promoting it.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Mr. Charland, I must admit that I am impressed with the effort parents are making to help their children become bilingual. Recently we heard from Mr. Jim Murphy of Newfoundland who told us that online teaching was really quite important for those who cannot get it in a classroom and that it was an ideal method in the future. What are your thoughts?
Mr. Charland: Online or distance education is also important to our regions, in Newfoundland and in Quebec. I believe there are regions that need this capacity since managing to hire an English teacher in some regions could cause a problem in Quebec. So if other complementary approaches can be used but not exclusively online, I think this is an interesting approach.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Thank you.
Senator Charette-Poulin: I thank Mr. Charland who has already answered my first question.
My second question relates to a recommendation of yours, Mr. Boudreau. You said that the federal government has the responsibility to remind the country about the importance of linguistic duality. You just spoke about the importance of moments of realization for your members. If you had to recommend to the federal government three ways to highlight the importance of linguistic duality by creating potential moments of realization, what would be your recommendations?
Mr. Boudreau: Cultural immersion, cultural integration and cultural exchanges. It is educating young people about the francophone community beyond our own communities. It is meeting with young people from Alberta and Newfoundland, for instance, in order to discover similarities and the universal aspects of their experience. This opens their eyes and highlights for them the importance of the language.
Senator McIntyre: Welcome to the representatives of both federations. Mr. Charland, I understand that your federation's mission is to encourage parents to get involved in the Quebec school system. I also understand that you meet and bring together committees representing parents of primary and secondary school students throughout Quebec. Do you sometimes meet with the parents themselves?
Mr. Charland: Senator, while it is true that one of our objectives is to improve the work done by our parent- members in schools and in school boards, we are also focused on making sure that parents' needs, expectations and opinions are heard by government and education partners.
For example, last weekend 125 parents from across Quebec were with me to discuss various subjects. So we meet with parents on the ground as well. When we had to take a position on the development of an intensive English program in Grades 5 and 6, we surveyed parents on the ground — not just school board delegates but "real parents". I smile when I say that because I myself am a real parent even though my official title is the executive director of the federation.
Senator McIntyre: The Fédération de la jeunesse canadienne-française has member organizations in nine provinces and two territories. Which province is not a member of your federation and why?
Mr. Boudreau: Ironically, speaking about the francophone community, the province that is not a member is Quebec. There is also Nunavut.
As for Quebec, the reason is that we represent young people in minority communities. However, that does not mean that we are not working with Quebec. For our national events we have recruitment partners in Quebec who help us find young people who could participate in our events such as the Francophone Games or the Forum jeunesse pancanadien. We also have launched a process with — What is its name, Josée?
Josée Vaillancourt, Executive Director, Fédération de la jeunesse canadienne-française: The Table de concertation des forums jeunesse régionaux du Québec is one of our partners.
Mr. Boudreau: So we have this connection. The territory not included is Nunavut. I think I saw a study, and there were about 60 of them, there are maybe about one hundred young francophones in our 14-25 year old category. Right now there is no association that includes these young people. This was already the case. If ever Nunavut has a youth organization interested in joining us, it would certainly be welcome to do so.
Senator McIntyre: What is certain is that your federation works very closely with the Quebec federation, which is very good.
I understand that you organize after-school activities that promote French and bring together young people from different backgrounds. Tell us a bit about the after-school activities organized to promote the French language.
Mr. Boudreau: For our members in each province and territory the activities are different. This is due in part to our approach of working by and for young people. It is the young people who choose what they want to see. Across the country we have three signature events. The first one takes place every three years; the most recent one was held in Gatineau in 2014. The next event will take place in Moncton-Dieppe or surrounding area in 2017: the Jeux de la francophonie canadienne. The event is attended by about 1,000 secondary school students competing in sports, artistic, music and leadership events. The event in Gatineau that I had the opportunity of attending was huge. It is amazing how many people attend. It encourages exchanges and experiences and, of course, our participants are francophones and experience an event in French.
The Forum jeunesse pancanadien organizes another event that just took place in Winnipeg a month ago. The event was attended by about 120 young people — a bit lower turnout this year — to get them to talk about current issues specific to young people.
Two years ago in Charlottetown we talked about bullying, particularly language-based bullying. We felt there was a need to talk about this issue. This year the discussion was about the role and place of young people in democracy given that 2015 is an election year. It is an opportunity to educate young people about a given issue so they can take a position while at the same time fostering exchanges.
The final event is the Parlement jeunesse pancanadien held in the Senate every two years. Young people from across the country sit in your seats to respectfully and openly debate fictitious bills, all in French.
For example, at the last event in 2013, we debated water access in rural communities. We also talked about positive discrimination and the status of women in Canadian politics. It was a wonderful experience. We hope that the next event will take place in 2016.
Senator McIntyre: Clearly you have raised a number of issues. Congratulations for raising the issue of linguistic bullying. Bravo! Hear, hear!
Senator Chaput: It is a pleasure to hear you as witnesses. We are very lucky in this committee, Madam Chair.
I had a few questions for Mr. Boudreau but my colleagues asked them for me and you answered them.
At the age of 12 when you decided to study in French to better understand your roots, you made a commitment. When a young person makes such a commitment, it is sure to be a solid one.
You told us about your experience in Louisiana, about telephone conversations in French with your father. Were there other surrounding factors that led you to make this commitment at the age of 12?
Mr. Boudreau: At age 12 certainly. As for my experience in Louisiana I must say that it took place later when I was 16.
When I was 12 I was bullied at school. That is what triggered my change of school because I could no longer put up with how things were. When it came time to decide where I was going to go, there was no question. It would be a francophone school, and it was a commitment as well as a sacrifice. I had to ride the bus an hour and a half from home to school for a total of three hours on the bus each day, every day. I got up at 6:30 a.m. when I was attending the francophone school but it was a sacrifice I was happy to make because it was a better environment for me. It was a francophone environment where I was better able to discover and understand my roots.
Senator Chaput: So you are telling us that taking part in activities by and for young people and in exchanges is very important for young people?
Mr. Boudreau: Yes, absolutely.
Senator Chaput: Mr. Charland, what would be the best way to support the parents in your federation at the federal and provincial levels?
Mr. Charland: Senator, the first thing is to promote the existence of various programs because parents are not necessarily aware of them. Whether they be programs for visits or exchanges between regions of Canada, I believe there is already some work to do.
Last weekend I was speaking with an anglophone parent from the Montreal area who was telling me that francophone children do not have to go very far to see anglophones. However, sending them to Rimouski, for instance, would show them another society, one different from the island of Montreal.
Ensuring that parents are aware of programs such as the Society for Educational Visits and Exchanges in Canada (SEVEC), promoted by international education here in Quebec, is already a big part. It is important. Ensuring that these programs continue to exist is also important. I believe that SEVEC was already there was I was 10, 12 or 15 years old, and quite a few years before then. However, we feel that teachers are interested in these types of programs and that their ability to survive is shrinking. So the second aspect is promotion, which is helping these organizations deliver these kinds of services to our children, both anglophone and francophone, in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada.
Senator Poirier: Welcome all of you and thank you for being here. My question is for Mr. Boudreau. You were telling us earlier during your presentation that in order to master a language you need to live it; not only to learn it in school but to live it.
Thanks to the federation and your members, you encourage young people to take part in activities. Regarding these activities you mentioned, such as the ones in Nova Scotia, in Parliament, in the Senate, in Gatineau, the games, et cetera, are all members invited and able to take part? If so, are they responsible for the full cost of taking part in these activities?
Mr. Boudreau: Financial constraints mean that there is always a maximum number of participants at our events. That said, we often receive applications and registrations that exceed our capacity and then we have to make difficult choices as to who will attend and who will not. Especially for national events the costs are higher and we are faced with more constraints.
As for participation costs, we are lucky to be subsidized by Exchanges Canada and other federal departments and programs. We often ask our participants for a nominal fee that totals about $200 per event.
I can speak more specifically about New Brunswick, where I had most of my experiences. I know that for Fédération des jeunes francophones du Nouveau-Brunswick events the young people are asked to pay registration fees that are often covered by their student council. There is also a federation in New Brunswick and the members are student councils.
So it is rare for someone not to be able to attend for financial reasons. When selecting participants, the decision is up to a number of actors in our events, our recruitment partners who are our eleven members in the nine provinces and two territories. In Quebec the decision is made by the Table de concertation des forums jeunesse régionaux, and as is the case for our members, each has its own approach.
Senator Poirier: Your members are between the ages of 14 and 25. Let's say that I am a 14-year-old studying French, as you did. How would I know about the existence of these associations? Do you promote them in all schools providing French courses and French immersion so that young people can be aware of these programs?
Mr. Boudreau: Yes, it depends on the province but in most cases the school's student council is aware of the events. The council invites all the students in its school to take part in events, and it is up to the council to promote them. As well, some of our members have young people who serve as volunteers to recruit for events. These young people are already dedicated to our cause, are already involved in our work and are ready to put in the effort to encourage other young people to take part in the experience.
Events are increasingly being publicized through social networks. We make videos and do promotions, and we have a rather extensive presence on social media such as Facebook and Twitter. We have over 3,000 young people who like us on Facebook and about 1,000 to 1,200 Twitter followers. We can reach a certain audience this way but the core recruitment takes place in our schools.
Senator Poirier: You said earlier that there are many more applications than there are available spots for your activities. Do you use a form to help you select participants if that is the case or instead are they chosen at random?
Mr. Boudreau: We have a form so we can strike a balance. We do not want to prevent people who have already attended from returning because they contribute to the quality of the events. They can pass on knowledge to first-time participants. We also want to attract people who have never attended before so they can benefit from the experience. In order to attend events, people are often asked to write a brief 100-word essay on why they want to participate.
Ms. Vaillancourt: I could add that each recruitment partner has its own local recruitment strategy. The recruitment partners must also identify, after consulting among themselves, who will be able to attend events.
If we take the Jeux de la francophonie canadienne, since these are games, there are selection camps where anyone can register. Then the team is put together. We call for our events to be very inclusive, meaning that we very openly promote the events and everyone is encouraged to attend. We rely on our recruitment partners, who are our frontline experts, to help us make these sometimes extremely difficult decisions.
Senator Poirier: Can you tell me which part of New Brunswick you are from?
Mr. Boudreau: I know I have a strange accent.
Senator Poirier: No, it is a beautiful accent.
Mr. Boudreau: I am from Saint John, New Brunswick.
Senator Poirier: When it took you a long time to get to school, where were you coming from? Moncton?
Mr. Boudreau: No, from Saint John. It was the Centre scolaire Samuel de Champlain in Saint John. It is a 45-minute car ride.
Senator Poirier: Bravo!
Senator Maltais: Mr. Charland, I am going to give you a bit of history because my colleague does not understand how school boards work in Quebec.
I am now a parent and a grandparent, just like you. I was also vice-president of the Fédération des commissions scolaires du Québec. I support bringing parents back into schools. You know that it was a real fight with all governments to get parent committees, school committees and parent-board members to sit on boards of commissioners. So parent committees are not volunteer organizations but are actually part of the legal structure of Quebec school boards. It is completely different because if they are not there, the school board is inoperative.
Mr. Charland, you have made many changes to the second-language learning curriculum, for which I congratulate you. You and your predecessors have worked extensively with the Department of Education. You have addressed something that was obviously wrong. However, in Quebec there is a feeling that all the work you have done in primary and secondary schools to improve second-language quality is lost when students go on to CEGEP, where there is no more English instruction.
Experts tell us that in theory the students should be bilingual. That is not true; they cannot be bilingual. They can have a very good knowledge of English but they would need to continue to be provided with this knowledge at CEGEP.
I do not know if you agree with me but that is the problem in Quebec.
Mr. Charland: Senator Maltais, I would like to say two things. First, it is a small world and I am pleased to learn that I am speaking with someone from the Fédération des commissions scolaires. However, you must realize that currently under the Quebec curriculum, by Secondary V our students should be able to communicate in English, which does not mean that they are bilingual, because in order to be bilingual, students would need at least three times as many hours of contact with English. Our children have a working knowledge. The goal is for them to have a working knowledge when they travel and for them to be able to write and speak in English.
When they get to CEGEP that is a different matter. Take my personal experience with one of my daughters. You know that here in Quebec City there are Champlain and St. Lawrence Colleges and that a growing number of francophones from French-language schools, local French-language secondary schools, also attend Champlain College. Whether here in Quebec City or the Eastern Townships or on Montreal's South Shore, there are many young francophones taking this challenge head-on to go further. This is a possibility.
Now what we are seeing in French-language CEGEPs is that there are starting to be agreements between French- language and English-language CEGEPs to share teaching in various disciplines. One example I am thinking of is Vanier CEGEP in Montreal, and I am not sure of the French-language CEGEP — I believe it is Bois-de-Boulogne — where there are exchanges between both CEGEPs involving English programs, which are more and more popular. I am not saying it is the only solution but there are options that are becoming increasingly obvious.
Senator Maltais: Thank you very much for your explanations.
My congratulations, Mr. Boudreau, for your personal journey and your commitment to Canada's young francophones. Bravo! Canada needs more Alec Boudreaus.
I would like to say that the reason Quebec is not a member of the federation is that it is the only province with French as its official language.
Mr. Boudreau: That very much comes down to our structure as a federation. We have 11 members by and for young people and that is what is very important: that they work by and for young people, that they are self-directed. Of course there are employees but the young people are the ones making the decisions. In a minority setting it is just easier for people to form groups and create associations. If it were clear that a partner in Quebec could truly represent all Quebec youth, then we could have discussions and see what could be done.
Senator Maltais: You had a few experiences in Louisiana in particular; I too have often gone to Louisiana and noticed something: at some point parents and grandparents had lost the French language because of a compulsory law, and the young people were coming back to the French language. I will point to a small community in particular, Eunice: it rebuilt a theatre from the 1850s, which provides an exceptional setting. It is a village with 2,000 residents. Each day during the summer this little theatre stages two performances by local young people. It is exceptional and refreshing to see that they too are daring to identify with the French language today in that part of North America. When we compare our situations we see that the situation here Canada is not as serious as theirs. There is a lot of work to be done and thanks to people like you, we will get there.
The Chair: What role does the media play in preserving the French language for you and the young people you work with?
Mr. Boudreau: By the media, are you referring to newspapers?
The Chair: Social media, let's say.
Mr. Boudreau: Could you repeat the question?
The Chair: Do the young people you work with — for instance you spoke about the use of Twitter — do they use social media in French, in English? As for Facebook, for young people, is there room for French?
Mr. Boudreau: In my view, absolutely. What we are building through our activities and initiatives is a culture for young people, but it is a culture that is more difficult for them to live in. So they turn to social media and that really makes our job easier. When I post something on Facebook in French I see that I have friends in Quebec, Louisiana, Manitoba, Yukon who like what I posted, who comment on it, and together we have a discussion. It is interesting because we see that there are francophones and anglophones too, and online we can find a healthy exchange in both languages. Often anglophones will post comments in French because they support what I am doing, and at the same time there are francophones who will post in English or in both languages so it will be easier for an anglophone who commented to understand. It is a very healthy environment I am in on social media. French is vibrant and strong. I hear it is one of the most often-used languages online in the world. There is room for French and it is being used.
The Chair: Thank you. I wish to thank our witnesses who came here today; Mr. Charland, a big thank-you for sharing your expertise and experience with us. Josée and Alec, thank you for your passion and your enthusiasm, and keep up your dedication. We support you. I declare the meeting adjourned.
(The committee adjourned.)