Proceedings of the Subcommittee on
Veterans Affairs
Issue 11 - Evidence - May 6, 2015
OTTAWA, Wednesday, May 6, 2015
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at noon to continue its study of the medical, social and operational impacts of mental health issues affecting serving and retired members of the Canadian Armed Forces, including operational stress injuries, or OSIs, such as post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD.
Senator Joseph A. Day (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Honourable senators, today we are continuing our study on operational stress injuries and other mental health issues affecting veterans.
[English]
Today's meeting will focus on the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and will provide an overview of the RCMP mental health programs and services offered to serving members and to veterans of the RCMP.
We are very pleased to welcome today, representing the RCMP, Daniel Dubeau, Deputy Commissioner, Chief Human Resources Officer; Gilles Moreau, Assistant Commissioner, Assistant Chief HR Officer and Director General, Workforce Programs & Services; and Sylvie Châteauvert, Director General, Occupational Health and Safety Branch.
Representing the RCMP Staff Relations Representative Program, I am pleased to welcome Staff Sergeant Abe Townsend, National Executive; and Sergeant Brian Sauvé, Staff Relations Representative (SRR) and Chair of the National SRR Health Committee.
I understand there will be one representative from each of the two groups that we have before us this afternoon. Please make brief introductory remarks, and we will proceed to a discussion and question-and-answer period.
We will start with Mr. Dubeau.
Daniel Dubeau, Deputy Commissioner, Chief Human Resources Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police: Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you all for your ongoing examination of operational stress injuries affecting serving and retired members of the RCMP.
As noted, I'm Deputy Commissioner Dubeau, Chief Human Resources Officer for the RCMP. For my colleagues here, I have Gilles Moreau. Of the many titles he has, he's also the mental health champion for the organization, so he's here today in that role. Sylvie Châteauvert runs our occupational health and safety program, if you have any questions about our services.
I would also like to acknowledge my colleagues Sergeant Brian Sauvé and Staff Sergeant Abe Townsend. We work closely with them in the program.
[Translation]
The RCMP is committed to supporting a fully engaged and healthy workforce to provide a safe and secure Canada. Policing duties can present many pressures and stresses to our members, including those caused by traumatic events, a constant state of vigilance, the increasing complexity of police investigations, or the responsibility of balancing/ honouring family commitments.
[English]
Therefore, as we move forward, the RCMP is exploring the tools required to build stronger resiliency in our membership, to provide timely and effective supports for those who require them and to encourage an overall healthy working place for all our employees.
As we explore new tools and support systems moving forward, there are already many existing mental health programs and services in place for our employees.
[Translation]
All RCMP employees and their families have access to 24-hour, 7-days-a-week employee assistance services through Health Canada. This confidential service can provide access to counselling for up to eight hours per issue for an unlimited number of personal or work-related issues.
[English]
The RCMP offers peer-to-peer systems for employees to serve as a conduit to our employee assistance services and other internal resources including, but not limited to, our occupational health services, our informal conflict management systems, our staff relations representatives, our bargaining agents and our chaplains.
But, as we know, more can be done to enhance the health and well-being of our employees. It is as a result of this that in 2014 the RCMP launched a five-year RCMP Mental Health Strategy to address stigma, maintain and/or improve our employee mental health, and to continually improve on how the RCMP is addressing mental health issues.
For serving and former members with an operational stress injury, Veterans Affairs Canada provides assessment, treatment and support services through their operational stress injury clinics. The Department of National Defence offers similar services to RCMP members through a network of clinics called Occupational Trauma and Stress Support Centres. Veterans Affairs Canada administers all treatments and benefits, including psychological counselling and use of OSI clinics for former RCMP members with a pensionable OSI condition.
Under the RCMP occupational health care program, serving members experiencing a psychological crisis or those who require addiction or other therapy can access psychotherapeutic services from psychologists licensed by a provincial or territorial regulatory authority for services they deliver. These services may be provided by other mental health professionals when deemed appropriate by the RCMP psychologist.
[Translation]
Occupational health care is an extra level of care that the RCMP may choose to provide to minimize limitations and restrictions that affect a member's fitness for duty and to maximize employability.
[English]
RCMP Occupational Health Services offers a number of support services, including confidential psychological services for our undercover drug program, suicide prevention and postmortem assessments, psychological interviews in attempted suicide, psychological assessments and debriefings, preventative activities, short-term counselling and/or therapy, and psychological support services on either an individual or group basis for psychologically traumatic events.
A few additional examples of support services that the RCMP provides to serving and former members include:
[Translation]
Under its Supplemental Health Care Benefit Program, the RCMP provides serving members with personal, group, family and couples counselling by an approved psychologist.
[English]
Former members are offered the option to become a plan member under the Public Service Health Care Plan upon retirement. The plan includes coverage of psychological services. Furthermore, all former RCMP members and their families have access to short-term counselling services through the Veterans Affairs Canada Assistance Service.
Thank you for allowing us to appear today and to participate in your discussions on operational stress injuries. We look forward to answering any questions you may have.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Mr. Townsend, please go ahead.
Staff Sergeant Abe Townsend, National Executive, RCMP Staff Relations Representative Program: Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, committee members and guests. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today on behalf of the 23,000 members of the RCMP who serve across Canada and internationally.
For the past 34 years, I've served Canadians as a member of the RCMP, including as an elected representative for past 10. I'm now a national executive for the Staff Relations Representative Program, and that program is the non- union elected representation for the membership of the RCMP. With me today is Brian Sauvé. As introduced, he is Chair of the SRR Health Committee. I will turn the floor over to him.
Sergeant Brian Sauvé, Staff Relations Representative (SRR) and Chair of the National SRR Health Committee, RCMP Staff Relations Representative Program: Good afternoon Mr. Chair, committee members and guests.
Although my partner and I are regular members of the RCMP, we speak to you today on behalf of and to advance the concerns of all members of the RCMP through our role as elected staff relations representatives. I've occupied this role since 2011.
On behalf of all members, we would like to take this opportunity to thank Veterans Affairs Canada for the past 60- plus years of service to both serving and retired members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
My primary duties lie with the day-to-day representation of the members that elected me. That is approximately 1,600 members, regular and civilian, in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia.
However, the SRR program has also elected me to represent all members of the force as Chair of our National SRR Health Committee. The health committee advances and advocates on issues of national and local concern to the membership. Some of the agenda items on that committee that are of interest to today's discussion include the RCMP's partnership with Veterans Affairs Canada, mental health in the RCMP, and suicide in the RCMP.
Mental health within the RCMP and across Canada has grown to be extremely topical in the past few years. I'm of the belief that this is a step in the right direction both for our membership, our organization and the country as a whole.
The SRR program has advocated for many years to the management of the RCMP about the need for a greater focus on the mental health of our membership, along with the resources and programs required to meet these challenges.
I was pleased to learn and be a part of the development and ongoing implementation of the RCMP's five-year Mental Health Strategy.
The initial focus of this strategy has been to reduce or eliminate the stigma associated with mental health. Operational stress injuries and post-traumatic stress disorder are a reality for our members. The more we can do to mitigate the risk and teach resilience, the stronger our organization will be.
As you are well aware, mental health issues — not only operational stress injuries and post-traumatic stress disorder — can be a difficult diagnosis to live with, but it is also difficult for the member suffering to come forward and seek treatment due to the appearance, whether real or perceived, of weakness, career limitations or alienation from their colleagues or the organization. This is all due to the stigma associated with mental health.
As a staff relations representative, I can speak directly to the impact that traumatic events, large and small, have on our membership. In the past two months alone, I have assisted no less than eight members involved in deadly force situations. Normally I am in attendance within the hour after the shots have rung out and provide support to the members on an ongoing basis, whether daily, monthly weekly or yearly.
I can attest that none of those impacted members will ever be the same. Most will be successful and go on to fulfilling careers serving Canada within the RCMP, but they will never be the same. All will require care and support.
I've been part of a number of initiatives through our partnership with Veterans Affairs Canada that I believe have assisted in reducing the stigma regarding operational stress injuries, not the least of which was the recent release of the OSI Connect app for smartphones. Any member, or even members of the public, can download this application from the Veterans Affairs Canada web page and learn about resilience, locate an operational stress injury clinic or do a self- assessment.
In addition to the OSI Connect app, in early 2014 the RCMP expanded the transition interview program offered through Veterans Affairs Canada for releasing or retiring members. Through the transition interview, members can learn about the benefits and services available to them through Veterans Affairs Canada due to their service in the force.
I believe more needs to be done and at present there are a number of initiatives under review by the RCMP, such as the Canadian Forces Road to Mental Readiness, or R2MR program, adapted to policing, as well as the Mental Health Commission of Canada's Mental Health First Aid course.
As we move forward, I believe we can enhance our partnership with Veterans Affairs Canada by increasing the outreach and education on the valuable benefits and services available to members of the RCMP. To this end, the RCMP liaison at Veterans Affairs Canada actively participates in outreach and awareness activity with our membership.
In closing, we thank you for your work. We need only to look at media headlines to realize that violence towards police is not on the decline. Incidents of operational stress, large and small, are an everyday occurrence for our members. Most will never make headlines, but all have an immediate or cumulative effect not only on the individual but their colleagues and their family.
Your work here is very important to our membership, and we welcome any questions the committee may have.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Sauvé and Mr. Dubeau, for your comments. We have a number of documents that we will want to take with us that help describe the various programs that are in place. You went over quite a number of them.
Before I go to my list of senators who wish to pose questions, could you explain to us in a little more detail your relationship with Veterans Affairs Canada? Is money transferred from the RCMP to Veterans Affairs for the services they render? Are the services clinical only or are there some research activities, joint activities going on?
Mr. Dubeau: I will ask Ms. Châteauvert to answer the question. She is the direct contact with VAC.
Sylvie Châteauvert, Director General, Occupational Health and Safety Branch, Royal Canadian Mounted Police: With respect to the disability payments administered by VAC, it's a grant and contribution that the RCMP has the privilege to have, which is $144 million. Certainly this is the dedicated fund. Of particular interest is that as of 2014, the number of clients that suffer from PTSD and OSI is 3,095. They have been diagnosed and are in receipt of a VAC pension for PTSD or OSI. Of those 3,095, 1,200 are still serving.
In that context, as we work with our partners, with VAC and also with DND/CF, there is also a steering committee to which the CHRO attends whereby we have the opportunity to exchange best practices and also leverage some of the services so that we continuously work to evolve and learn from one another to advance our common goals.
The Chair: Thank you. That's helpful and we'll get started now with honourable senators who may follow up on that, or I may be back following up on that later on.
Senator White: Thank you to each of you for being here.
We know the pressure on the RCMP in relation to new work or increased levels of work in pursuing terrorism. I'm trying to figure out whether we have seen an increase over the past 18 months in the number of requests for assistance, in particular on mental health, as the pressure of the job starts to shift.
I think all of you have been in situations such that when the work grows, the headaches often grow. If we have not seen an increase, are we anticipating such an increase and doing something about that proactively?
Mr. Dubeau: Have we seen an increase related to the level of work? I can't say that. I can't say there is a causal effect with the increased focus on national security or any of our jobs. We have seen an increase because of the educational programs, removing the stigma, so our members are coming forward. You're hearing about it more in our organization.
This week is Mental Health Week. There is a lot of activity going on, and a lot of our members are speaking and seeking and reaching out to get the services. I believe that's why you are seeing the increase in the VAC numbers. And even across the force, with the removal of stigma compared to when I joined 30 years ago and you did not talk about it, it is becoming acceptable to speak about it. We are watching that.
Part of our strategy is looking at how we can pick up indicators and try to prevent that. We have done various things. We had a short research project in New Brunswick that looked at the New Brunswick population. As we rolled out R2MR, Road to Mental Readiness, we monitored this to see if we can identify risk factors.
We are now exploring with the University of Regina whether there would be an opportunity there to go into a research phase so that we're could start identifying these.
Until we figure out exactly what are the risk factors, it's very hard to get the prevention. We are putting a lot of education forward. I believe some self-assessment tools are going to go live this week. We have armed our leadership with the tool kits to speak about mental health.
The peer-to-peer program is what is key for us. We call it members watching each other's backs. If you see a member is not themselves, then you might want to ask the question. No matter how uncomfortable you are, ask the question, find out what's happening in their lives and reach out to help each other through this. You are correct that police work is a hard job to do, and we have to make sure we all go through it safely.
Senator White: I appreciate that, and maybe it will change over the next two years as this pressure continues.
The second question I have is that for retired RCMP officers to access VAC's OSI clinic, they have to be receiving a disability pension from Veterans Affairs. Is that true?
Mr. Dubeau: I believe so.
Senator White: That's what it says. Is that true of military retirees as well? I don't think it is.
Mr. Dubeau: I can't speak for the military, senator. I'm not sure what their program is.
Senator White: I don't think it is. I'm challenged now to say that someone retiring from the RCMP and deciding they would like to access help, we force them into an 18- to 24-month system of trying to apply for a pension. Maybe the pension is not what they are looking for. Maybe they are just looking for help.
It's more of a concern, because I don't know that I actually realized you had to receive a disability pension to receive assistance under the OSI.
I would ask if I could receive some material from you identifying how that was determined, because I don't think I ever realized that was the plan. In fact, we had General Natynczyk here, and his answer, when I asked him the question around how someone would get help, he said that they just have to show up at the office, as long as they're a retired member. I didn't ask him if they had to have a disability pension, but I don't think he spoke to the need for a disability pension.
If you don't mind, I wouldn't mind seeing why it was determined that you have to be receiving a disability pension to receive that assistance, deputy.
Mr. Dubeau: Definitely, senator.
Senator White: Thank you.
The Chair: To confirm that point, it is our understanding that there is a different standard with the RCMP, which requires a retired member to be on pension before the clinics are available.
Senator White: A disability pension, not just pension; a separate pension altogether.
The Chair: Exactly, versus the veteran from the Armed Forces.
To lay the groundwork, we've learned that operational stress injury, particularly post-traumatic stress, sometimes manifests itself a number of years after service. They are the individuals that we are concerned about here, and if they are not on a disability pension, what are we going to do about those individuals?
Mr. Dubeau: Even after you have retired, you can apply to VAC and receive your pension. You can still do that. If you have retired from the organization, you can always apply at any given time.
I believe the determination has to be that it is duty related, and here is what you have got, and you have access our OSI clinics.
I believe Sylvie had some clarification.
Ms. Châteauvert: In the context of the OSI clinics and the trauma centres for DND, the OSI clinics are VAC clinics, per se. From our perspective for the RCMP, if you are in service, you are an active member and need to be referred to the OSI, you are referred through our health services officers, so our physicians within the force. That recommendation is made, and you can access the OSI if you are still serving.
If you are retired, normally it is someone receiving that pension. However, if you do show up at that doorstep, we work with the VAC liaison. It has not been my experience that anyone has been turned away for the help they needed. Sometimes we need to come back to the terms of the process, but to our knowledge no one has been turned away.
Senator White: I accept that and would expect nothing less, but I am concerned by the fact that we don't — sorry. My working with Staff Sergeant Townsend in Iqaluit today could mean that I'm suffering some stress and I should have automatic access, just as if a military officer working in Edmonton today feels that. I thought it was automatic; you get a pension and you have access.
I could ask the question, but I know the answer. I believe 18 to 27 months is the average time to get through an application process for a VAC pension, and not one has ever been approved first time in the RCMP. Not one, I understand, has ever been approved first time. Is that correct, assistant commissioner? The numbers are close, I'm sure.
To suggest that a retired officer should get that, I think, is unfair. This isn't your problem. I might suggest it's ours to find a solution. I do think, from a fairness perspective, someone serving with Staff Sergeant Townsend deserves as much support as possible.
The Chair: Did you wish to defend yourself about Iqaluit here?
Mr. Townsend: I've been defending Senator White for years in many venues. Now he is your colleague and will become your problem.
In relation to the question, as we define our relationship with Veterans Affairs, it's an ongoing process. In fact, I'm informed that the process of defining that relationship is happening as we speak.
Transition interviews that were piloted four or five years ago were a huge bonus for our members, because that was done external to the force and a bit of a gut check, a self-awareness as you're walking out the door: "By the way, here is what you are entitled to. Here are the programs you are being made aware of." It was a segue into healthy retirement. At least you had the information.
As we define our relationship in the future, maybe that's the best practice we can adopt from the military, but it will come with a cost, I'm sure, and fair enough. Our members serve with honour, and that's the cost that we, as Canadians, I would suggest, are willing to undertake.
Senator Lang: Looking at the notes that have been provided for us, they talk about an attached table in respect to the number of individuals who have taken part in the various programs. Do you have a copy of that table with you? Are you familiar with what I'm speaking of?
Mr. Dubeau: I don't have that in my notes, senator. I'm not sure what copy you have in front of you.
Senator Lang: The heading is "Prevalence of OSI in the RCMP." The number of serving members who obtain treatment for occupational stress injury has increased from 52 in 2010 to 239 in 2014. The number of serving members with a pension award —
Mr. Dubeau: Those are different notes. We do have those tables.
Senator Lang: Could you provide those for us?
Mr. Dubeau: Yes.
Senator Lang: That leads me into the numbers. I don't necessarily want to get into a numbers game, but it certainly demonstrates whether there is an increased utilization of services.
It says there were 455 in 2008 to 1,014 in 2014. Is that per year or is that in total, just to give us some essence of the full numbers of what we're dealing with? What I'm trying get at is the sense that one year the average was 455 a year, and all of a sudden it jumped up to 1,000 in 2014 in one year.
Ms. Châteauvert: If I may, sir. Are you referring to those who have been diagnosed with PTSD or those who are accessing the OSI clinics?
Senator Lang: There are a number of categories here. The number of serving members with a pension award for PTSD has increased from 455 in 2008 to 1,014 in 2014. Is that total number, 1,014, who are on pension award with PTSD?
Mr. Dubeau: I believe those are cumulative numbers, so it is a total.
Ms. Châteauvert: Correct.
Mr. Dubeau: One year you have 400, and the next year you have 500. It's not 500 new cases. We're just adding.
Senator Lang: It's 400 plus another 500.
Mr. Dubeau: Yes.
Senator Lang: We went from 93 for operational stress injuries in 2008 to 203 in 2014. What I'm getting at is this: Are there presently enough services and resources to deal with the numbers that we're seeing here in respect to looking for services from Veterans Affairs with this increase? You talked about $144 million. Is that adequately covering the membership that's applying for services?
Ms. Châteauvert: We operate, obviously, within the grant and contribution that we're given. But if I may, in addition to the activities and the work external to the RCMP, within the RCMP, we do have divisional resources across the country whereby we have medical professionals. It's a multidisciplinary approach. We have a number of psychologists working with the front line. To that, in resources alone, we dedicate $2.2 million just with our psychologists.
In that context, there's a lot of work that goes on internal to the organization before it actually needs to reach externally, whereby the additional services of the clinics and so on are required.
In the context of health care overall, the RCMP spends $60 million. Of that amount, $5.5 million is dedicated to mental health, those requiring treatment and medical assessment.
Senator Lang: I'm trying to get some sense of how this works in respect of Veterans Affairs and then the RCMP. In some cases, what I see between Veterans Affairs and DND, we may well be getting a duplication of some services. This is what I'm getting at. If we're doing this here, the $60 million, and then we have another $144 million in another category — am I reading this right?
Mr. Dubeau: Senator, those are different categories. The $60 million is for health care internal to our organization. It's used for a different function. Part of that could be psychological services.
I believe your initial question was whether VAC has sufficient resources to deal with the inflow of our members applying. We are constantly in communication with VAC; we have an MOU with VAC for the services they provide us. We're constantly readjusting where we have to.
I can't say from my perspective, or hearing from Veterans Affairs, that they don't have the resources to take the inflow. We recently had an evaluation done on the grant and contribution for our organization, $144 million as it is today, and that's come back very positive, saying it's a good use of money and we're able to keep up. I haven't heard of specific cases where members are saying that it's taking too long and they can't get the service.
If that happens, I'm sure I would hear it through my colleagues. Our vets association would tell us right away. That's why we have a VAC liaison sitting in Charlottetown, to be on the ground so that if we hear there aren't enough resources and the files aren't getting looked at, we can engage early.
The steering committee, which I sit on with Veterans Affairs and our colleagues from National Defence, is to discuss those issues, to ensure we all have the services we need. If we have to adjust, of course we would have that discussion with Veterans Affairs about how we ensure that we are getting the services we need for our membership.
Mr. Sauvé: From a member's perspective, the feedback I've heard is nothing but positive with respect to the OSI clinics and their dealings with Veterans Affairs Canada. Yes, delays, time from application to pension, dealing with the Veterans Review and Appeal Board can be challenges on the front end. From that perspective, I would say the resources within the OSI clinics — I deal regularly with the one on West Broadway in Vancouver. I understand you've heard from Dr. Passey, a psychiatrist at that location. Members can show up at the front door and not be refused treatment as they await the Veterans Affairs pension process.
I would say the challenge is the internal RCMP resources. That's a grander discussion with respect to attracting psychologists to make those referrals to the OSI clinics. As we do it today, it has to be an RCMP health services officer that makes that referral.
We are having issues, especially in B.C., where I'm from, attracting enough health professionals to work for the RCMP. That creates a bit of a backlog internally so that the members can access those clinics. That's a grander discussion that I'm pretty sure is out of the purview of this particular committee.
Senator Lang: We talk about prevention, and it goes back to the recruitment of individuals into the RCMP. Some individuals are capable of being able to handle stress more than others. I think that's a known fact. Looking ahead and knowing the increased stress that the members of the Armed Forces, and in this case the RCMP, are under — and it's going to increase, not decrease, unfortunately — what are we doing to ensure that there is full, adequate psychological testing of young recruits to ensure that we do the best we can so they can withstand some of the day-to-day pressures that they have to face, and subsequently keep the numbers down that may need assistance?
Mr. Dubeau: Part of our recruiting process, senator, is actually psychological testing. I'm going to use the acronym because I don't know the full term — the MMPI. I believe that's the test we use. Every recruit that comes in has to pass that test. It's looked at by psychologists to ensure they meet our standards. That's how we ensure we have screening at the front end.
When they arrive at Depot, we do talk. There's a mental health session at Depot. We're now engaging our training facility to ensure that we engage them and ensure that they understand what mental health is. It's being re-emphasized throughout the training. They need to understand that they can reach out for help. We're developing and trying to build assistance right there so that when they walk out of Depot they understand there are services available to them and don't hesitate to reach out to those services.
Senator Lang: Mr. Chair, I don't want to belabour this, but I want to pursue it. Are we comfortable with the amount of testing we're doing to ensure that those you find will not be capable are identified so they're not put through the process, put into uniform and then put into a situation that will affect them and the general public for the rest of their life? With the recruiting, are there quite a number of situations where someone is turned away because they're not going to be able to cope when you've gone through this testing?
Mr. Dubeau: Within the recruitment process, yes. Yes, you can be screened out on the psychological aspect. You can be screened out if you don't meet the standards. That is not to say you're a bad individual.
Senator Lang: I'm not saying that at all.
Mr. Dubeau: There are indicators there that would cause us to be concerned.
Senator Lang: That you won't be able to cope with the job?
Mr. Dubeau: Right. We do that.
Gilles Moreau, Assistant Commissioner, Assistant Chief HR Officer and Director General, Workforce Programs & Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police: The test being administered is not there to identify whether you'll be able to cope or not. It's to see whether you're psychologically healthy to be a police officer. It's not targeted to see whether you will be prone to PTSD or an OSI or you'll be able to cope, but that you're healthy when you start out with the organization.
Senator Mitchell: Thanks very much to each of you for being here. This is a very important issue and you obviously take it very seriously. The Senate has been working on PTSD in the RCMP for some time, and I certainly have been. A lot of what we're talking about today is what happens once somebody has it, and I know that you're very concerned about avoiding it in the first place.
One of the programs put in place in the past, we are told, was the Respectful Workplace Program. Deputy Commissioner, could you give us an idea of where that stands in its implementation, how you're assessing it, its impact and so on?
Mr. Dubeau: I'll give you an overview of it. I may not be able to provide details because I wasn't prepared for that question today.
The Respectful Workplace Program rolled out about three years ago as a result of cultural issues in the organization and inappropriate behaviour. It came as a result of our gender and respect assessment and our action plan. We have flowed that out. We had 30-something action items and we flowed them out.
We have achieved most of them. Parts of those would have been Bill C-42. The accountability act for the RCMP allowed a whole bunch of new HR systems to go into place that have to do with harassment, code of conduct, the professionalization of the organization and expectations.
That came into force in November and the systems now are flowing, and it's the responsibility of our professional responsibility officer to make that happen. Early indications are that it seems to be achieving what we want. Grievances are being resolved more quickly, which was part of the issue. We have launched an internal informal conflict management system and have practitioners in the field.
The harassment process has been changed dramatically. We have a new harassment policy, which is very clear. We have centralized reporting, for lack of a better term, outside the chain of command, where if somebody feels they're not being treated properly or being treated inappropriately, such as inappropriate comments — it could be somebody in charge of you — you can actually report it. That's all been put in place.
What's remaining, and we always knew this would be the issue, is the recruitment of female applicants. That's always been a challenge and we continue to work on that. We're working on a new ad campaign. We still have some very specific recruiting events for females interested in joining the force. We're trying to bring that up.
Every division, every commanding officer, put in place Respectful Workplace Programs. We had national programs. They were allowed to tailor it to what they needed. What was happening in B.C. may not be the same as what was happening in Newfoundland, so we allowed a lot of flexibility for our commanding officers to put in what they needed. Many of them did surveys, found out the lay of the land, the climate, and then targeted very specific programs.
For example, I know that in B.C. they put out respectful workplace advisers in the districts, and it was almost like peer to peer. Brian can speak to that because he comes from B.C. That was what they did. We did more education and training. That's all been rolled in.
We measure it this way: We look at the health of our organization and if we're resolving our harassment complaints more quickly. We're hoping that with our new system, the grievances, as they come in, will be resolved more quickly. There's nothing worse than putting a grievance into the system and it lingers, so we're looking at that.
Our internal conflict management system, we watch the metrics: How many people are using it? How is that working? Can we improve on that?
You saw that our peer-to-peer support network came out of that. We said we need to have peer-to-peer support as we change to the Employee Assistance Services with Health Canada, because that was a cultural change for our organization. Our members are used to an internal program. We've been campaigning on that, saying that it's a confidential and professional system, so reach out. It's always unfortunate that you see these problems, but at least the numbers going up. People are reaching out. Families are reaching out and getting the help they need. That's what we're looking at; giving people the hope and help they need to see we can get through this together.
Senator Mitchell: Do you make a distinction or are you able to make a distinction or assess the different causes of PTSD or OSI? Clearly if you're in a car in a rural area and you've seen a lot of accidents and horrible scenes, that would be a reason why somebody might get post-traumatic stress syndrome. You can imagine that if you're being harassed sexually, that would be another reason. There's lot of evidence that that is a reason. Is your organization able to identify and track those differences? Are there different processes for dealing with the injuries caused for different reasons?
Ms. Châteauvert: In "J" Division, we piloted the R2MR, Road to Mental Readiness. In New Brunswick, pardon me. We wanted it to be a workshop that was evidence based. A study was undertaken by Julie Devlin, who has a PhD in research psychology. She worked with our HSO, the health services officer, the physician, and also the University of New Brunswick.
The study looked at the prevalence of OSIs in the divisions sort of as a snapshot to give us an indication nationally. Its goal was to identify the risk factors and how to mitigate them, trying to get ahead of the curve to prevent the development of OSI.
The research team was able to identify, to some extent, protective factors that we could work on and really enhance those protective factors. One of the examples was peer support, knowing that you have that one member, that one colleague to lean on.
The outcome of the study did demonstrate that, through the workshop, through the research, we could increase mental resilience. This speaks a little bit to prevention by way of self-management strategies and providing mechanisms to mitigate the effects of stressful work, mindful of the stress at home, so the combination.
The course material was also aimed to provide coping skills and that level of self-awareness. As an organization working together, we developed a self-awareness tool, so speaking a little bit to the app that we spoke about a little earlier, but also a document that would help members be reminded of what state they are in and knowing where and how to get the help.
There was a little bit of work done in that context to help us as we continue to implement our strategy and develop annual action plans to identify concrete steps, activities and work that need to take place if we are to advance our cause toward our goals.
Senator Mitchell: Thank you very much.
Two terms have been used with respect to "peer." One is "peer to peer," and you've just used the term "peer support." I know Colonel Stéphane Grenier had implemented a peer support program in the military, which has been proven to be extremely successful in augmenting other forms of treatment. Compared to the British and U.S. who don't have it, it's been quite clear.
He had told me or us, a committee at some point, that his program had approached the RCMP program on a number of occasions and there had been some interest, but it was never followed up on. Are you saying you now actually have a peer support program where if somebody has PTSD they are assigned a mentor or support person? Peer to peer is different from that. Have you given some thought to peer support in that context?
Ms. Châteauvert: Just to clarify, we have the employee assistance program. That's offered to the organization as a whole, and that's through Health Canada.
As a conduit to ensure that the employees are seeking out those services, we established what we call our peer-to- peer network. This is an internal support system to aid in getting the necessary help, mindful that part of the culture of the organization was the fear of reaching out and the discomfort in seeking help external to the organization. The peer- to-peer network was to aid in that conduit so they were getting the appropriate help they needed.
Our statistics reveal that there may have been some skepticism in the beginning, but we've seen an evolution. We've seen our numbers double in those wanting to come forward and use the Employee Assistance Services.
With respect to the military peer support services that you mention, I had the privilege to also work under the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff. I worked at DND prior to coming to this branch of the RCMP. I'm aware of the programs in place. It's commonly referred to as the OSISS program, which is more an external peer support program.
Certainly we're mindful of the benefits of that program. Through no formal arrangements to date, the RCMP has had the privilege to use the OSISS program. We are currently in dialogue and working with DND to have a more formal arrangement so that we can further promote it, because ultimately the goal is to destigmatize mental health issues and ensure that members get the help they need.
Senator Beyak: Thank you all very much for being with us today.
A former colleague, and a friend of mine, was also in the military, doing post-traumatic stress treatment for many years. He said the turning point for him was when they focused on: you are serving with honour; you serve with honour and that you look at the event, but you don't focus on it; you move forward and dwell on the future; the rearview mirror is tiny and the windshield is huge; we're going ahead; and that he was a victor and not a victim.
Could you elaborate on the training that you have, or if you have anything similar to that in the RCMP, so that people go ahead, feeling positive about themselves and respected? There is a lot of pressure from the public right now, whether it's the military, the RCMP, nurses, teachers, senators, where they focus on the few bad and don't focus enough on the good — the serving with honour and the integrity.
Ms. Châteauvert: In the context of that, it is twofold. As part of our work to remove the stigma and to encourage members to come forward, we've had a series of testimonials by members coming forward to tell their story. We have had one that has come forward and we created a video. He told his story and how the organization, his colleagues and the system supported him. He has been able to work through that. That had a very positive ripple effect for others coming forward. We were mindful to screen them to make sure that telling their story was not going to be a setback for them, but we've had a number come forward and that has encouraged the dialogue. From that perspective, that's been helpful.
In terms of more formal training, the RCMP has had, for the last two years, a revised version of the Critical Incident Stress Management course. That's online training, so it's available throughout the RCMP from coast to coast to coast. In the context of continuing our work with training, with education, obviously there's lots of awareness being generated throughout the organization. We're providing a lot of fact sheets. We're taking every opportunity that we can to educate ourselves.
In addition to that, the Road to Mental Readiness has been part of a pilot project adapted for the purposes of the RCMP, mindful that there is often a reference to the organizations being very similar. Having worked in both organizations — I'm not a member myself — I can say they are very different. In that context, the work continues.
The ultimate goal is to be able to roll out that workshop so that the employees across the country can benefit from that additional education, which comes with tools to help understand what you're feeling; how you're feeling; knowing that you're not alone and you've got people that you can reach out to, lean on and tell your story to and ultimately get the help you need. The divisional Health Services are vigilant in being active.
I can say that when there are incidents and occurrences, right away we reach in to make sure we're offering the support that's required at the local level. At the divisional level, the commanders are very engaged and involved. That conversation is taking place. Mental health is on the agenda of the workplace health and safety committees, on the COs' divisional committees and so on.
Mr. Sauvé: Not to provide a contrarian point of view, because we all have to work together in this organization to advance the interests and issues, but with respect to the Critical Incident Stress Management online program, it's an hour. It took me about 15 minutes to complete. It's not deep or thorough. That is under review. We have brought that forward and are looking at it.
With respect to your question, Senator Mitchell, Stéphane Grenier is a fantastic gentleman. I have met him and am familiar with his work. The Operational Stress Injury and Support System, or OSISS, we brought that forward about five years ago for the RCMP to look at. From a member's perspective, we're pleased that they're actually entertaining looking at that.
The concern five years ago was exactly that: the mentor was outside the organization, perhaps a family member of someone suffering from an operational stress injury; the lack of what would be on a person's health file; their operational status and whether they could still be an active and serving member of the organization. We are talking about people who carry guns, so we have a concern for public safety and their safety. That's not lost on me.
With respect to trauma debriefing, shall we say, after a major police incident or a critical incident, sometimes we have to bring forward that the RCMP — what you see here in Ottawa or Calgary is a headquarters building with a bunch of people who are centralized. But we are an extremely diverse geographic organization. The majority of our policing takes place in remote communities that are difficult to get to. Again, as staff relations representative for B.C., dealing with the commanding officer of B.C., I can say that we have had serious issues with respect to trauma debriefings in the north of that province mainly because not enough psychologists who are trauma-debriefing trained are available in those remote areas. Even though the unit commander wants to have one and conduct one within the specific time frame, the external resources are not there.
Credit goes to our CO and a number of commanding officers in contract divisions. They have made available force transport for trauma-debriefing trained psychologists who are willing to travel. That is a positive.
There are a number of challenges, but from my perspective, we also need to keep in the forefront that we're an extremely large geographic organization, for example, all those little places that you don't think about on a regular basis: Fort Nelson, Fort Chipewyan; Fort Smith; Churchill; Pukatawagan. So moving forward, the peer-to-peer support program is essentially a conduit. It's a referral to Health Canada's Employee Assistance Services. In the organization, they are serving shoulder to shoulder with public servants, civilian or regular members. It is still in a growth phase. I'm cautiously optimistic, having been part of the development program for that, that it will be a success. It's going to evolve.
That being said, the Mental Health Strategy, reducing stigma, from a labour perspective — because I would love to come to the table and bring up an issue and have it fixed tomorrow. But I'm also fully aware that we're talking about the RCMP. We're talking about a federal organization, and it takes time to make changes.
The first year of the implementation of the Mental Health Strategy, to me, has been a relative success. I have dealt with members who are free and willing now to confidentially report to Ottawa, which I had never heard of in my first three years in this job. There was a bit of a fear there. So the Respectful Workplace Program is working somewhat. It's going to be an evolution. It will need an ombudsman of fair process, such as us, to monitor it and ensure that it follows along and is successful. But these are steps in the right direction.
Senator Beyak: The second part of my question: As a woman, of course I care about minorities in all instances, but I am concerned. Christy Blatchford had a fabulous article last week when the military sexual harassment report came out. She said that we have 100,000 incredible military people. If there are a few bad apples, then we'll deal with them. We have 23,000 incredible RCMP officers. If there are a few bad ones, we'll deal with them. Teachers who are not perfect, we'll deal with them. There are a lot of good teachers and fabulous nurses. They're not all in nursing homes beating old people.
Do you have a fight-back strategy, a communications plan, to tell people how incredible you are? We as senators certainly need it as well.
I always repeat that a few bad apples seem to get all the press these days. It's demoralizing Canadians; it's demoralizing our forces; it's demoralizing everyone. I think we need fight-back strategies. I wondered if you have considered telling people how great you are on a regular basis.
Mr. Dubeau: Not to be self-serving, we try on a regular basis to tell Canadians what we do. I don't think we ever boast that we're the greatest or that we have it all fixed because we know we have a lot of things to change. It's constant evolution, and society evolves.
We do have strategies. Unfortunately, the strategies we may have may not be what the media wants to here. That's where it always becomes an issue.
It's different in different areas. For example, our commanding officers in B.C. have news about themselves on their website. I think they call it "Setting the Record Straight." We are putting stuff out there, but we have a free and democratic media and society, as they should be, if they choose to provide the details we provide.
Mr. Moreau has been active as our champion to go to interviews and talk about this. We've had a lot of people talking about it. Unfortunately, the message does not always get out.
You are correct: It can be demoralizing to our people. Internally, we tell our people that they are serving with honour. When some of our members make mistakes, we have to help them. If it's been egregious, we have to take care of that. I think Bill C-42 brought us in the right direction to say, "We will take care of that." We take seriously that we all serve with honour. We have honourable employees, regardless of the category, because there are three categories in our force, who serve Canadians proudly.
I think I'll stop there before I start crying here — sorry.
Mr. Townsend: As labour representatives, we have monitored the public's opinion of all our members for over 10 years, year after year. Regardless of what the media may say about the good, the bad and the ugly, Canadians consistently have a high level of appreciation for our members. We tell our members that when we visit our members and communicate with them.
The media have their role in the world, and the Canadian public has its opinion. Often, the two are not equal, so we remind our members of that. I have been doing this for the last 10 years. Year to year to year, by and large the public has a very positive opinion of our members.
The Chair: Could you clarify a point made by Sergeant Sauvé about the mental health strategy being a five-year program only? It implies that after five years everything will be perfect. I would think that a strategy should be ongoing, a living initiative.
Mr. Dubeau: I will let Mr. Moreau speak to this.
Mr. Moreau: The strategy was set out for five years to be realistic. As opposed to having a mental health strategy for life, we looked at five years because we were starting as an organization to talk about a one-year action plan. We have completed our first year and are launching our second year of action plan.
Of course, it is ever evolving with the strategy as we move forward and eliminate the stigma over the next five years. The objective at the end of five years is to address things other than the stigma, and the strategy will continue.
Mental health is present in our lives, whether it is in the RCMP, everywhere in Canada or in the world, and it will still be there in five years. We will continue to do this. It won't be me; it will be somebody else. However, it will carry on. We have no choice; we have to make sure that we are mentally and physically healthy to serve Canadians.
Ms. Châteauvert: The optimal goal is to revisit that strategy and to define it as per the requirements. It's part of a health and safety management system whereby we aim for continuous improvement. Based on what we will have learned by then, it will need to be redefined as per the vision and the needs at that time.
The Chair: Five years.
Ms. Châteauvert: An action plan.
Mr. Dubeau: We have divisional champions involved in this and a national advisory committee. We went through the action plan in terms of what we did this year and where the gaps are and how we can adjust on a yearly basis. If we are not on the right track, we will not wait for five years but will change the track.
The Chair: I'm glad to hear that.
Mr. Dubeau: We call our strategy high level, but the action plans are yearly and reflect the realities we know today as more things are learned about operational stress injuries. New risk factors are always coming out, so we try to incorporate them. Our colleagues at DND have done fantastic work on this. We work very closely with them and look at what they have.
We were at an awards dinner yesterday with our mental health champions and our military colleagues were there. It was an incredible event. They are our brothers and sisters in arms. We have a lot in common with them, although our roles are different. We have a totally different job, but we learn a lot from them and we share a lot with them. It is a great working relationship.
The Chair: We are running down on time, but I have a number of senators who have expressed an interest into going into round 2, the short, snappy questions and answers. Perhaps you could follow up quickly on these. If anything requires you to go back and think more, please write to the committee, as that's fine too.
Senator White: Does the RCMP need an ombudsman for its membership?
Mr. Dubeau: At this point, I work with the organization we have. We have a staff relations program. I think they do a very good job.
Mr. Townsend: In fact, Veterans Affairs has an ombudsman. We adopt the ombudsman of Veterans Affairs.
Senator White: I ask because the RCMP serves in over 800 communities, from the most isolated to the most populated in every province and territory. In all the provinces, except Ontario and Quebec, they are the provincial police service. I'm talking about an ombudsman for National Defence and the Canadian Forces to represent the interests of a former member, a former employee, a former non-public-fund employee, a person applying and a member of the immediate family. I'm not questioning the support you give the sworn and civilian membership. I'm not questioning what the union representatives provide their groups either. Because the RCMP is so diverse with representatives in over 100 countries in some form or fashion, providing five different functions of policing, I think it's one organization in this country that might need an ombudsman to assist its employees and report directly to a minister.
Mr. Townsend: If I may respond quickly, the Veterans Affairs ombudsman takes care of our members, who are clients. As we redefine our relationship with Veterans Affairs to cover a broader mandate potentially, that may be a point of access for our retired members and serving members, our family, as it relates to health and specifically mental health issues.
The Chair: Would it make sense for Veterans Affairs' mandate to expand to include all of your former members' issues like they do for the military?
Mr. Townsend: I believe so.
The Chair: We will put that on our list.
Senator Lang: I want to go back to my pervious questions to Mr. Moreau. I'm just looking at the statistics. Right now, the way I read it, 5 per cent of the current membership of the RCMP has some type of disability for post- traumatic stress disorder. Over 1,000 individuals at present are taking programs, out of 23,000. Those are the ones who are pensioned. Another 2,000, basically 10 per cent of the current workforce — maybe I've got it reversed.
Mr. Dubeau: There are 1,200 serving members and the other 2,000 are retired.
Senator Lang: It is a significant number is what I'm getting at. That has to be of concern obviously, why and what the effects are.
When I asked about the recruitment of future members of the force, Mr. Moreau said that there wasn't a part of the psychological testing to see whether an individual could cope with PTSD or that type of stress. That caught my attention. In view of the numbers you have, the experience you have, it would seem to me that the force would be looking at their method of psychological testing to see how they can revise it to ensure that we don't put individuals in a situation or in a job that, in the long term, they will not be able to cope with.
The question is: Are you changing the way we do psychological testing to see whether or not we can identify that?
Mr. Moreau: Right now we don't have any research capabilities to do that or to look at that. It may be a point we may want to look at in the future.
Currently, our main goal is to hire people who are healthy, both physically and psychologically. The fact that they are going to be exposed to stressful situations is a given. If they are healthy, we have a look at developing better resilience-building programs so that people are more resilient. However, if they are exposed, we also have to have the services available right away in order for them to get the treatment so that they can stay at work or come back to work after a period of issues with mental illness.
Senator Lang: That naturally follows. What I'm speaking of is the initial recruitment and the identification.
My leads me to my next question. In other countries, are different types of psychological testing being done to identify that so that at least it's identified and perhaps that individual isn't recruited or is recruited and maybe put into a different part of the organization that wouldn't put them into the situation?
Mr. Dubeau: I wouldn't have that response. I would have to talk to our psychologists because you are asking what other countries do. That would have to be something that we would have to come back to you on, if we could, with a written response.
The Chair: Senator Mitchell, you have a minute and half to get your question on the record.
Senator Mitchell: I'm going to take 10 seconds for a snappy comment and then 10 seconds for a snappy question.
I want to say that I think the objective of hiring more women is to be applauded. I think it's obvious, and everybody knows it, but I want to reinforce that if they are put into the same situation where the culture hasn't changed and where there is harassment, that is not going to solve the problem. I encourage your work in that regard.
My snappy question is with regard to impediment to advancement of your career up the ranks if you are identified at one point as having PTSD. It's a stigma question. If you have been identified and come forward, if you had PTSD and received treatment, is it the case that that does not impede your progress up the ranks, or does it?
Mr. Dubeau: From my perspective, no, it does not. If you come and identify it and get treatment — we have 1,200 members who are serving, working right now, and many of them are getting promoted. It's not something we tag. The health files are very confidential.
Our concern is more on certain specialized teams. That's where you might hear some of our members, especially on our emergency response teams, where they are fearful — I'm in charge of the dog program, so I know our dog handlers are always fearful of saying, "I have a bad knee," because they love their job so much. We are telling them, "No, you have to tell us. It's an important function that you do. It's public safety. Tell us. We'll help you and do everything we can to cater to that." Unfortunately, with my older body, I can't do what I did at 20, so I may not be on these teams anymore, nor would I want to be.
It's really a pride thing. We're hoping to break through that, and we are seeing it. We are able to show that when they come forward, their career is not being impeded. We are going to help. We want to help them. We need them as fully functioning police officers. That's what we want. That's what Canadians want. We believe in them, as you said.
Mr. Sauvé: The 1,200 are diagnosed with an operational stress injury. Not all have PTSD, which is one of those OSIs. It could be anxiety disorder, bulimia, alcoholism, any one of those things. I'm not a clinician, that's just a bit of what I've picked up along the way.
I would say that those 1,200 are probably not being impeded for promotion. However, based on the occupational profile of a new job and what they can choose to be promoted to, their career choices are probably limited. The challenge I see is that people are fearful of coming forward because they believe that their career will be limited by raising their hand and saying, "I need help."
The Road to Mental Readiness program I think is a fantastic one, developed for us. However, it should be similar to the Canadian Forces, which is ongoing throughout your career, not a one-time deliverable.
Mr. Townsend: We keep using the phrase "if a member encounters an event." I think the mindset should shift to "every member will encounter an operational stress event or a post-traumatic event." It's a given, whether it's an internal event that you are aware of or an external event that everybody is aware of. It will happen. It's policing. It's a contact sport. It will happen.
The Chair: On behalf of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs, we would like to thank the RCMP and the RCMP staff relations representatives for being here. We very much appreciate and support fully the work that you are doing. We want you to know that and take it back to the members.
Thank you very much, and we will look forward to seeing you again.
(The committee adjourned.)