Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 28 - Evidence - November 1, 2017
OTTAWA, Wednesday, November 1, 2017
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:47 p.m. to study the Government Response to the fifth report of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples entitled We Can Do Better: Housing in Inuit Nunangat.
[English]
Senator Dyck: Before we beginning this evening, honourable senators, given that the December 7, 2006, motion regarding committee composition expired October 31, yesterday, I would like to ask for leave to preside over today’s proceedings for the purpose of receiving evidence. Is leave granted?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Dyck: Thank you, senators.
Good evening. I would like to welcome all honourable senators and members of the public who are watching this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples here in the room or listening via the Web.
I would like to acknowledge, for the sake of reconciliation, that we are meeting on the traditional, unceded lands of the Algonquin peoples. I am Lillian Dyck. I’m from Saskatchewan, and I have the privilege of presiding over this meeting this evening.
I now invite my fellow senators to introduce themselves, starting on my right.
Senator Tannas: Scott Tannas from Alberta.
Senator Doyle: Norman Doyle, Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Bovey: Pat Bovey, Manitoba, and I’m not a member of this committee.
Senator Enverga: Tobias Enverga from Ontario, a member of this committee.
[Translation]
Senator Dupuis: Renée Dupuis from the Laurentians in Quebec.
Senator Brazeau: Patrick Brazeau from the beautiful province of Quebec.
[English]
Senator Sinclair: Murray Sinclair, Manitoba.
Senator Watt: Charlie Watt, Nunavik.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Senator Lovelace Nicholas from New Brunswick.
Senator Dyck: Thank you, senators.
Today, we are taking a step back from our current study and going back to our previous study on northern housing. You will recall that we tabled our report,We Can Do Better: Housing in Inuit Nunangat, on March 1, 2017, of this year, which included 13 recommendations and received a government response on July 19 of this year.
Today, we welcome and are pleased to have before us the Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos, Minister of Families, Children and Social Development, as well as the Hon. Jane Philpott, Minister of Indigenous Services, to discuss this report. After you do your presentation, ministers, we will have questions from the senators. Minister Philpott, I believe that you intend to go first.
[Translation]
Hon. Jane Philpott, P.C., M.P., Minister of Indigenous Services: Good evening, everyone. Madam Chair, honourable senators, thank you for having us here today — the Minister of Families, Children and Social Development and me — to speak to the committee’s report on northern housing.
[English]
I am happy to join my colleague here this evening. I acknowledge, as you have, honourable senators, that we are gathering on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people.
I want to thank this committee for its important efforts in preparing the report and examining this critical issue. As Minister of Indigenous Services, I am pleased that the government supports the report’s recommendations as indicated in the government response you received in July of this year.
As you know, we are committed to working collaboratively with indigenous and provincial and territorial partners to ensure that all Canadians, including Inuit in Canada’s North, have access to adequate, safe and affordable housing.
The title of your committee’s report is so important. You have called it We Can Do Better: Housing in Inuit Nunangat. We not only can do better; as you know, we must do better.
The report states that:
Throughout their traditional homelands, Inuit face an acute housing crisis which threatens their health and safety.
It goes on to note the severe housing shortage, poor quality of housing, overcrowding and the phenomenon of hidden homelessness.
As you may have noted in the most recent census figures, in 2016 over 40 per cent of the Inuit population lived in crowded housing. That is compared to 6 per cent for Canadians as a whole. This number is even higher in Inuit Nunangat, where more than 50 per cent — 51.7 per cent, in fact — lived in overcrowded housing.
Over 26 per cent of the Inuit population live in a dwelling in need of major repairs. If you look specifically at Nunavut or Nunatsiavut, over 30 per cent of the population are living in housing that requires major repairs.
In Nunavik alone, more than 1,000 units are needed to address the shortage of adequate housing. Those of you who know that area will know that there are many stories of up to 15 people living in tiny, three-bedroom homes, many of which need major repairs.
As the senator from Nunavut will know, the numbers there are even higher in Nunavut. There is an estimated gap of 3,000 housing units that are needed to close the housing gap between Nunavut and the rest of Canada.
[Translation]
The North’s challenging arctic environment, high construction costs, short shipping and building season, and rapid population growth have contributed to serious overcrowding and inadequate houses.
[English]
According to Statistics Canada, the Inuit population in Inuit Nunangat continues to grow faster than the Canadian average, and that population growth, as you would understand, places pressure on this already serious housing situation.
As your report notes, the persistent and growing housing shortage in the North is nothing short of a public health emergency. As a physician myself, I know, as you also do, that overcrowding is linked to many serious health conditions and a lower quality of life. We know, for example, that inadequate housing, overcrowding and poorly ventilated homes lead to high rates of respiratory diseases, to name just one.
More specifically, I would bring to your attention the issue of tuberculosis. We know that rates of tuberculosis among Canada’s Inuit are 270 times higher than the rates for the non-indigenous Canadian-born population. Children and adults in our country are dying of this treatable infectious disease — in 2017. Tuberculosis rates are affected by the overcrowded living conditions, as well as many other factors, such as nursing shortages, language barriers, medical evacuations, weather delays, delayed diagnoses and much more. The fact that this epidemic has persisted among the Inuit of Canada for more than a century is unacceptable, and it is intrinsically linked to the issue of housing shortages.
Housing is a fundamental need and the foundation for strong and healthy communities. Having access to culturally appropriate, adequate and affordable housing is critical for improving health outcomes as well as things like seeking safety from violence. We know as well that a house is essential to develop a positive learning environment for children and youth.
[Translation]
Addressing the housing crisis in Canada’s North is an urgent priority, one that our government takes very seriously.
[English]
There are three Inuit regions that have now received $80 million of earmarked funding for housing in Budget 2016. It was delivered directly through a funding agreement to Inuit land claim governments and organizations to address the housing needs in these regions over a two-year period. This was a direct response to recommendation number one in the Senate report, and it respects and strengthens the Inuit-Crown partnership. More specifically amongst that designation, Nunavik in Quebec received $50 million; Nunatsiavut in Newfoundland and Labrador is receiving $15 million; and the Inuvialuit Settlement Region in the Northwest Territories is receiving $15 million.
I am happy to report there are many examples of how this funding is making a real difference. In Nunavik, approximately 144 new homes will be constructed. In Nunatsiavut, I can tell you about multi-unit complexes that are being constructed to provide homes, for example, for parents to have their children with them when children may otherwise, tragically, be taken into custody due to a lack of adequate housing. I am happy to say that on a recent visit to Nain, Labrador, I had the opportunity to see one of these beautiful, new multi-unit complexes. This is in addition to a number of new houses that were built in Nunatsiavut in 2016 and 2017, with nine more committed in the next fiscal year.
I should note as well that Budget 2016 provides $97 million over two years to territories through the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation’s Investment in Affordable Housing initiative to address other urgent housing needs in northern communities. My colleague will speak to some of that as well.
I also want to note that helping communities adapt to climate change is critical for future sustainability. In response to this, Budget 2016 announced $130 million over five years for climate change adaptation. That goes to seven different departments and agencies. It focuses on things like improving the science base to inform good decision-making; protecting the health and well-being of Canadians; building resilience in northern and indigenous communities; and enhancing the competitiveness of key economic sectors.
This programming, through the Climate Change Adaptation Project, was spilt in two parts, the North and the south, to indicate the importance of northern-specific programming.
The operating costs for homes in the North, as you may know, are extremely high. About 72 out of 99 communities in the Yukon, Northwest Territories, Nunavut, Nunavik and Nunatsiavut rely almost exclusively on diesel-powered generation. We have to find more affordable, environmentally friendly energy solutions for northern homes. I have been impressed by, and am happy to tell you about, conversations with Inuit leaders who have smart ideas about how they believe they can make some of these energy-efficient adaptations.
To address these high costs of running homes in the North, Budget 2016 has committed $10.7 million over two years to implement renewable energy projects in off-grid communities that rely on diesel power and other fossil fuels to generate both heat and power.
You should also, I am sure, be encouraged that these investments also allow greater jobs and skills development.
[Translation]
Through Budget 2017, our government has made additional investments in response to higher housing needs and costs in northern and Indigenous communities.
[English]
To give you some specifics about Budget 2017, over an 11-year period, there is an investment of $300 million in northern housing; $225 million for indigenous housing in urban and rural areas; and a total of $4 billion to support indigenous community infrastructure that includes housing.
Your committee’s report recommends that the federal government develop a specific federal strategy for housing in Inuit Nunangat and that any solution to the housing crisis should directly involve Inuit who experience and understand it every day. It is essential that this work is done in full partnership with indigenous groups, as well as territorial governments, provincial governments and other stakeholders. I have met with many of these key partners already. Parts of this work have been done through our discussions in the Inuit-Crown Partnership Committee and the Inuit Nunangat Declaration on Inuit-Crown Partnership, which was signed in February of this year. The agreement commits both sides to work together to co-develop a housing strategy that meets the needs of Inuit in Nunangat.
[Translation]
We must do better. The Prime Minister has made it clear in his mandate letters to all ministers that he is committed to renewing the relationship between the Crown and Indigenous peoples in Canada.
[English]
This, colleagues, is a moral obligation. As Minister of Indigenous Services, my mandate letter lists housing as one of my top priorities. The Prime Minister expects me to, and I quote:
Ensure the successful delivery of the significant investments made in Indigenous services through Budget 2016 and Budget 2017. This includes new and repaired housing . . .
I take this responsibility very seriously. I recognize that there is a tremendous amount of work to do. I believe all Canadians are behind these goals that we have as a government: the desire to make a real, positive difference in the lives of indigenous peoples of this country.
We must take action immediately. We know how much this matters. It matters because in 2017, Inuit children die from tuberculosis in staggering numbers. In 2017, Inuit families live in overcrowded, unhealthy housing that dramatically affects their quality of life. The status quo is not an option.
Our government is resolute. We are firmly committed to justice and equity for all Canadians, including indigenous Canadians, and we will continue the vital work of making safe, adequate, affordable housing available to all in Inuit Nunangat in the spirit of partnership, collaboration and reconciliation.
I will now turn over to Minister Duclos to speak. After that we will be happy to answer questions.
Thank you. Chi-Meegwetch.
[Translation]
Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Families, Children and Social Development: Thank you, Madam Chair. It’s a pleasure to be here with Minister Philpott to discuss our government’s response to the committee’s report on housing in Inuit Nunangat. I would like to acknowledge that we are meeting today on the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin peoples.
I would also like to mention that joining me today are Charlie MacArthur and Michel Tremblay of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.
To start, let me just say that we appreciate and value the work the committee has done on this important issue, and we, Ms. Philpott and I, largely support the recommendations in your report.
[English]
Our commitment to take action on improving housing in Inuit Nunangat rests on two fundamental principles. First, as the Prime Minister has noted, no relationship is more important to Canada than the one with indigenous peoples. Minister Philpott has already spoken to this in her remarks. Second, our government recognizes that safe, affordable and accessible housing is a cornerstone of building sustainable, inclusive communities and giving all Canadian families a real and fair chance to succeed.
A home is more than just a roof over one’s head. It is a refuge and a launch pad. It is a place where families can thrive, where people can find stability and safety, and where they can feel confident about their future and the future of their children. Home is where our children learn and grow, where traditions are passed from one generation to the next, and where our elders can age in place and live in dignity.
Our government also recognizes that too many Canadians from coast to coast to coast struggle to find adequate and affordable housing. This problem, as you heard, is particularly acute in northern and Inuit communities, with its own unique set of challenges. We are determined to deliver better outcomes and to make a difference for all Canadians.
[Translation]
That is why both Budget 2016 and Budget 2017 committed close to $13 million in funding toward the Housing Internship Initiative for First Nations and Inuit Youth.
I am happy to report that the investments made through Budget 2016 have resulted in the creation of 692 internships for Indigenous youth, including 79 for the North. Furthermore, funding from Budget 2017 is expected to create 565 more internships.
The Housing Internship Initiative for First Nations and Inuit Youth is already having a significant impact in northern communities. In the Nunavut community of Naujaat, in Nunavut, six young adults were able to gain valuable work experience and on-the-job training through the initiative. The experience acquired through the internship even allowed two of the young adults to find employment with a construction company and help build 10-unit housing projects in their community.
[English]
Budget 2016’s doubling of investment in affordable housing is also benefiting northern communities. Thanks to contributions from the federal and territorial governments, eight new units for low-income households opened in Dawson City in the Yukon in May. This locally built and community-owned housing helps address the needs for affordable rental housing in a northern community.
The commitment to delivering better outcomes is why our government is developing the first ever National Housing Strategy, with new housing initiatives that will channel multiple efforts into a coherent, integrated and whole-of-government approach. Our goal is much broader than simply building better housing. We also want to achieve better social, economic and environmental outcomes through our investments.
[Translation]
Through the National Housing Strategy, the federal government will re-establish a strong leadership role, and achieve better outcomes for all Canadians. We will focus on the most vulnerable, collaborate with more partners in new and innovative ways, and reduce homelessness, among other benefits.
As you know, we have committed more than $11 billion in long-term funding to help ensure that Canadians have access to safe housing that meets their needs and that they can afford. Budget 2017 also set aside an additional $4 billion in long-term funding for infrastructure in Indigenous communities, including housing.
These investments are over and above those made by our government in Budget 2016, which are already benefitting northern and Inuit households.
But it is clear we must do more. Under the National Housing Strategy, additional investments will be made in housing across the North. These funding commitments were highlighted in our response to your report, and more details will be announced very shortly.
[English]
Our response also describes the specific actions we are taking or will take in response to each of the committee’s recommendations in four key areas. These include: new solutions for northern housing, including predictable, long-term funding; supporting a variety of housing options in Inuit Nunangat; encouraging innovation, research and technology to support resilient housing; and removing barriers to support better housing outcomes.
As Minister Philpott noted, CMHC also continues to support her department in its work with indigenous partners to develop distinct First Nations, Metis and Inuit housing strategies.
Our goal is to find long-term solutions that will improve housing outcomes and promote greater indigenous control of housing.
[Translation]
Let me assure the committee again that we remain committed to working collaboratively with Indigenous, provincial and territorial partners to ensure that Inuit households — and indeed all Canadians — have access to adequate and affordable housing.
I will end my remarks there. My colleague Minister Philpott and I will be pleased to answer your questions.
Thank you. Qujannamiik.
[English]
Senator Dyck: Thank you for your reports, ministers. We will now open the floor to senators.
Senator Tannas: Thank you, ministers, for being here with us this evening. You mentioned a 3,000-unit backlog in the North. This study was part two of our housing study. The first part was the South, and we know that the problem is 10 times as large in the First Nations communities south of 60. This is a $10 billion problem that everyone in those communities is living every day. I don’t mean this disrespectfully, but the numbers that were thrown around sound large and so on, but you also mentioned that the population is growing very quickly.
Minister Philpott, have you made a determination about managing this in a way that would allow you to have some line of sight of whether we’re going forwards or backwards? Are we digging into this backlog, and if so, by how much? I’m from business. What gets measured, gets managed.
I wonder if it would make sense, and if you would maybe agree, to come back one year from today and tell us if we have 2,900 in a backlog or 3,100 in a backlog. The projects that you’ve talked about and pointed to here I don’t think are even going to keep us even, never mind dealing with the 3,000.
I would be curious to know, as you take the reins of this department, start cracking the whip and say we’re going to get something done here, would that be something that is on your mind?
Ms. Philpott: I will start and perhaps Minister Duclos may want to add to my comments.
Thank you for a fantastic question. You are absolutely right; continuing with business as usual, even better business as usual, is not going to address the gap. You were actually generous in saying it’s a $10 billion gap. I’ve heard figures much higher than that in terms of what it would actually take to close this gap.
You’re right. We need to measure, and I think that measurement has been done in a way in the last couple of years perhaps better than it has in the past, and therefore we’re able to talk about 144 units here and X number of units there in important ways, but it will not close the gap.
I would argue there are a number of keys to success, and it’s going to require a completely different way of looking how we address housing gaps. Some of it comes with long-term funding, some of which we’ve announced, and Inuit Nunangat is one of the best ways to know why long-term funding is necessary. If you don’t know you have funding next year, you’re not going to order a shipment of supplies. Getting that long-term funding in place is critical.
This is also very much dependent on innovative models for financing, looking at models of home ownership in a different way, looking at what a new fiscal relationship is going to look like with indigenous peoples, looking at how we can be much more creative in the technical design of buildings. In fact, what I hear from indigenous peoples is that we should not be creating programs to help deliver houses but supporting the development of institutions, and you hear about First Nations, Inuit or Metis infrastructure institutions that will actually look at much more creative models.
I’m sure as a businessperson you have many good ideas to add on that as well.
Senator Tannas: Actually, in our report for the First Nations housing, we talk specifically about that need. The longer you can go out with your funding agreements, the more leverage the institutions at the local level can put on to then borrow with faith of payback. Presumably, as you say, there are others. There is the concept of rent and payment by users and so on that will be developed over time. You’ve touched on the solution, and it was something that maybe as part of your brief you could look at, or your people could brief you, on those specific recommendations that we made around some unique financing models we came across when we scanned the world.
Mr. Duclos: Minister Philpott has already mentioned how much we are all mindful of the immense gap that exists not only between the North and the South, but also between the current state of housing in the North and the needs of northern and Inuit communities and families.
There are two important ways to start filling that gap, and the first is through resources. Resources do matter. Although I certainly would not want to engage in partisan debate, for transparency I would want to signal that between 2015, 2016 and also for 2017, transfers to the North have essentially been multiplied by five. That is something that indicates the renewed leadership and the renewed understanding by the federal government that there needs to be something done.
That being said, as with Minister Philpott, I had the pleasure and privilege of being in Nunatsiavut a few weeks ago and had very good discussions with the ITK leaders, and the ITK president and the board were saying precisely that. Not only do the resources matter, but also the type of relationship that Inuit have with the federal government and their ability to use the resources of the federal government to support their empowerment, their ability to make a difference in the lives of their communities and their families.
They are mindful of the tremendous challenges that there are for them to start addressing these broader questions that you mentioned. What do we do? Over the long term, how do we build a sustainable, inclusive and efficient housing sector to better serve our families and communities?
In that context, CMHC, if I may mention the work of CMHC, has also been making significant progress in that broader context. For the first time ever, in 2016, the three Inuit regions, in addition to Nunavut, received direct support from CMHC instead of working through territorial governments or provincial governments. Since 2016, they have been receiving direct transfers for them to operate on the ground and to make the best effective use of the federal government’s support.
Senator Enverga: Thank you for your presentations.
We are actually part of the team who went to the North and we went as far as Igloolik. We saw how 10 members of a family live in two-bedroom houses. Many things have to be repaired in certain houses. Those are the things we saw. We were very concerned about those families in the North.
My question is here is more in line with that of Senator Tannas. You have mentioned here about 4,000 houses needing to be built, and so far 144 houses have recently been built. Do you have a timeline on the work? When will 50 per cent of these 4,000 be done? I know we have a lot of money at this point, but when will we be making some difference? Let’s say 2,000 houses. Is there a timeline that we can consider?
Mr. Duclos: That’s a very good question and thank you for asking it. The issue here is the one I mentioned earlier. For the three Inuit Nunangat regions of Nunatsiavut, Inuvialuit and Nunavik, they are in charge of building the houses and renovating the existing stock. For those reasons, they make the most effective use of the resources, keeping in mind that speed is often at the cost of quality in the housing sector. Given the fact that we all know construction and renovation in the North take both good planning and time as well. Planning and time are important resources in delivering the houses that flow from the transfers. It takes more time than would otherwise take place in the South. Those are the climate and physical constraints of working with northern communities.
We would all want to have those houses built as quickly as possible. However, for the sake of building the relationship with the Inuit and Inuit organizations in particular, and for the sake of building houses that will last for a long time and be well built, sometimes there needs to be more patience than would otherwise be in the South.
Senator Enverga: In your statement, you said it’s more like you’re relying on the local population to build the houses. Am I right about that?There are people who really need these houses. Why is it taking so long and who is taking leadership here? Aren’t we going to say, “You’ve got your money; let’s build the houses?” Can you say that to them? Are they really the ones making the problem worse?
Mr. Duclos: That’s a very interesting question. Again, we need to be mindful of two objectives, and the two objectives, if we work well, are complementary to each other. The first one is to increase and improve housing and living circumstances for Inuit. The second is to build the ability of the Inuit leaders and communities to take control over their lives. Those two objectives are complementary.
To proceed in a manner that would be inspired by the colonial past where the federal government would take control of the housing, plan housing construction and housing activities, push aside the local construction abilities, push aside the Inuit leadership, that would not be respectful of the relationship, and that would not be constructing the level of empowerment that we want the Inuit to have over the long term.
Senator Enverga: I’m just curious. They are the ones who want these houses, and they’re the ones who are creating delays.Are you going to give them a timeline? Are you going to say, “Hey, I have this money; you have to do this within a certain time. Otherwise, we’ll take away all this money because you’re not using it.”
Ms. Philpott: To a certain extent, I would echo what Minister Duclos has said — one of the goals and principles we will continue to uphold is that the approach to community planning and prioritization needs to be indigenous-led in terms of what priorities are, with the support of our government and others, of course, to make that possible.
You were getting at the concept of targets, and when we go to budget and look for resources to support the building and construction of houses, we go with a very specific target in terms of the number of houses we believe can be built for a certain amount of money. It can be difficult to do because a house built in Iqaluit is not the same as the cost of a house built further south.
To get at what you’re saying about when the job will be done, we have to go back to our discussion with Senator Tannas where we said that the current methodology is not going to entirely close the gap. I will point you again to the urgent need for a new fiscal relationship that deals with making sure that First Nations, Inuit and Metis have access to capital through organizations like the First Nations Finance Authority, for example. None of us would live in houses if we had to have all the money the moment that we moved into the house to pay for the house. I suspect most of us in the room depended on getting a mortgage at some time in our lives before we could dream of owning a home. We have to find and support these mechanisms for people to have the control that every Canadian wants to have over their lives — to be able to have access to capital and to be able to plan for their future in that way. Really getting at the housing gap is going to require us to support comprehensive community planning and new financial authorities to support self-determination.
Charlie MacArthur, Senior Vice-President, Regional Operations and Assisted Housing, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation: I can speak from a CMHC perspective. The funding we have has a timeline of two years. We work with Nunavut to put the plan in place, and we work closely with them to ensure that the construction is in place, and they report to us on an ongoing basis on the progress being made. We work with the other northern territorial governments on the same basis.
They can choose from a variety of ways to deliver that. Some of it is new construction. They may choose that a particular area is the most important. They can choose renovation or it could be a supplement to social housing and the like. They report to us on an ongoing basis in terms of the progress that’s being made with regard to the expenditures and the number of units being looked after.
Senator Watt: I would like to ask a supplementary question to try to bring things back in perspective so we know exactly what we’re talking about here.
When it comes down to the point of discussing, why don’t they do it themselves? First, you have to think, where is the actual engineering started from? Where are the technical people on the site? Where do they have to purchase the material? All of those factors have to be taken into account. I think they are important because right now the Inuit are not trained, at least to the full extent, to become a carpenter. They are also not trained to become an engineer. They know nothing about building codes. If they are expected, in the immediate time, to become an expert on engineering, architecture, all of those things that are associated with building, unless those matters are being looked at overall, I don’t think we’re going to get there. I’m sorry to say that.
One of the other things I would like to mention and help my colleague over there is the fact that the engineering takes place down south. Actual fabrication also takes place down south. There is very little work for Inuit people in the North when it comes to building houses.
That one thing that Inuit know very well is being able to build a snow house. Why don’t we change the approach of the government to begin to start looking at what doesn’t require lumber or nails. If we could end up utilizing natural resources which are available to us, that is the sand. The only thing we would need to export up North would be interior finishing and the cement. That really brings the cost down, doesn’t it, when you think of it?
But the department in Canada that is in charge of deciding what kind of building you build within Canada, can you build a round one? No, I don’t think there is a policy on that. They can only build a square one. If you get away from the square ones, then there is a possibility. Like my friend over there was talking about, this could be taken care of immediately, much faster than the way we’re dealing with it.
I thought I would bring that subject matter to your attention. Maybe the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation can think more about it, and maybe the department can think about it. The people who make the decisions of what goes and what doesn’t go should also be fully informed. Yes, there is a way, but we’re not using it.
Senator Dyck: Ministers, do you wish to respond? There were a couple of questions in there. What are the training programs you might have already envisioned or started? Have you considered alternative methods of construction that capitalize on what’s available in the North?
Mr. Duclos: I can provide comments on two things, and then I might want to invite my colleagues from CMHC to address the third.
The first comment is about the training. In my initial comments, I was mentioning the Housing Internship Initiative for First Nations & Inuit Youth. That is an important initiative that seeks to achieve the objectives you mentioned — that is, to make Inuit able to look after the construction and renovation of housing in order to take advantage of the renewed support of the federal government. It will take time, of course, before the skills and experience of young Inuit are up to the expectations that you signal, but it will come over time.
The second thing is the ability of local empowerment to make sure that, as much as possible, local workers, and local young workers, in particular, benefit from the housing activities that are being supported and envisaged for the future.
The third thing is about the level of flexibility that housing in the North may need and may deserve. For that, I will ask my colleague to my right to answer.
Michel Tremblay, Senior Vice-President, Policy, Research and Public Affairs, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation: Certainly, at CMHC, we collaborate and work together with northern housing providers to try to design a new way to look at housing that is more energy efficient, different materials, different designs, and also culturally appropriate to meet the needs of the people who will actually live in the housing.
We have had some demonstration in all three territories. We have housing in Arviat, Nunavut; in Inuvik; and in Dawson City, Yukon. We have also worked with NRCAN — I think it’s in Nunatsiavut — for a performance enhancement on a multi-unit dwelling. We are monitoring the performance. We are certainly open to the idea, and, through the National Housing Strategy, we actually had expert round tables and people with lived experience. We are continuing those to gather information. We look at best practices in Alaska and in other northern countries. We are certainly open to looking at designs.
Ms. Philpott: I can just add very briefly to what our colleagues have said here, but first of all, I also wanted to congratulate you, Senator Watt, on the news that you have started a new Arctic committee. I am not sure what stage of formality that is at, but that strikes me as a very wise process. I am very pleased to hear that. You will, obviously, contribute greatly to these issues.
I just wanted to add to what our colleague from CMHC said in this real important issue around creativity and culturally relevant homes. He refers to this sixplex in Nain that I had seen. The design there was developed as part of an Arctic Inspiration Prize. It was a prize for design innovation that was done in partnership with a firm from Montreal. There is a lot of work to be done in this area. Some of you may have seen a brief story on CBC this morning about how colleges and architectural firms are getting together and trying to help to support more culturally relevant plans. If you get home in time tonight to watch the CBC news, I hear there is a full-length feature on creative design in indigenous housing. Maybe we’ll get home in time for that.
Senator Sinclair: Thank you, ministers and your staff, for being here. I always strive hard at these meetings to try to get ahead of Senator Watt because he invariably raises all of the issues that we need to think about when it comes to the issues involving Inuit. I wanted to thank him for those points that he made.
I also would like to indicate that, when it comes to housing and social issues generally in the North, we concentrate too much on the issue of money. I recognize the importance of it, but we concentrate too much on talking about money as a potential solution without really putting our minds around the fact of what our targets are really going to be.
I heard a comment from Mr. MacArthur that one of the real issues that we need to think about is the number of units that we need to put in place on the ground in order to meet the needs of the communities. Have you given some thought to how many units you feel you need to contribute to the construction of or construct in order to meet the housing needs of the Inuit that we have identified in this report?
Mr. Tremblay: I will start, and then perhaps Stephen can comment on that.
As both ministers mentioned, we are working toward co-developing a housing strategy specific to the Inuit, the Metis and the First Nations. As part of that, they are actually helping us in determining the needs, both in terms of new housing and in terms of repairs, and also trying to give us ideas. We are seeking their input in terms of how we can better deliver these types of housing, setting up the Inuit authorities and so forth to get to that level. We support you, but, maybe, Stephen, you are more closely —
Stephen Van Dine, Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada: Absolutely. The partnership approach is certainly a central theme that we are approaching to try to tackle these issues.
Building on Minister Philpott’s comments, I would say that the question of money is important, but then we’re trying to get to whose money. Eventually, we are trying to get to the point where the wealth-generation opportunities in the communities create other options to help to solve the problem. It does become a multi-dimensional approach to tackling the issue.
As you very well know, many other communities in other parts of Canada enjoy what they call a housing market, where there are entry-level houses and higher-end houses and housing choices. We are not in a housing-market situation yet in many of these communities, but we are very working hard to try to address the immediate critical needs in order to start making progress against that more holistic vision of a full market and a healthy, vibrant community that is generating housing solutions for its own community.
Senator Sinclair: In Senator Watt’s comments, he alluded to the nature of the housing background that the communities themselves have experienced. I just wanted to follow up with a comment and then a question.
It is sadly ironic to me that, when you think about the history of housing in the North, particularly among the Inuit, the Inuit had a form of housing that they had developed culturally and environmentally that was perfectly suited to their needs. Along comes the government and changes everything and has almost ruined them through forced settlement location as well as through other practices involving children, residential schools, et cetera, so working in partnership with those communities and the leaders in those communities makes perfect sense to me.
In the report from the committee that has been filed, we made a very important recommendation about looking at new technologies. There is a section in there that talks about the presentations that were made to this committee that talked about new technologies that could result in and contribute to construction of housing in the North that was less costly than the current practice.
As you know, and I have seen — the committee has seen as well — housing built in the North is often housing that is inappropriate for the North and more appropriate for the south. If new technologies can be developed that are more suited to northern climes, that is really what we should be looking at.
Are you able to tell me whether or not the Government of Canada is looking at developing research initiatives or assisting those communities in the North that wish to do so to look at new technologies that will allow for better and cheaper housing to be constructed?
Mr. MacArthur: I can speak to that. There are two things. We do have an ongoing research program, and we do research in the North. We are open to looking at what technologies can work. We are looking at whether there are culturally appropriate things that have worked. Sometimes innovation needs to look to the past, and we are open to that.
In addition to the research, Budget 2016 provided funding for innovation. Once the research is done and proven and there, we could also move in and help with actually seeing whether that innovation could be brought to the communities and if it could be replicated.
We have a fair amount of research that is ongoing in the North, and cultural appropriateness is one of the things that we look at. Beyond that, we could look at innovation. Sometimes innovation is bringing back some things that worked. That is a place where we could move in with support for good, sustainable ideas and so on and take the risk that it would work.
Ms. Philpott: I will add that I referred in my notes to resources around climate change adaptation. I think your points are good in terms of the historical expertise of the Inuit on housing. They have obviously been deeply impacted by climate change. Some of our investments in research and innovation are supporting their ability to adapt, given climate change.
I am so struck by the solutions that we hear from Inuit leaders. I referred earlier to Duane, who is the president of the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation. He talks about an amazing number of innovations around how they believe they will build more energy-efficient houses. We need to resource people like that to let loose.
I lived in West Africa for 10 years and had cold running water in my house, but we had this fancy gizmo to turn on a gas thing and the water would go through a pipe quickly and you would have instant hot water with almost no use of resources. Duane says they need those exact kinds of things to provide instant hot water in the North. It’s ridiculous to have hot water tanks probably anywhere in the country. With those kinds of things that are innovative and allow homes to use energy well and triple-pane windows, et cetera, Duane and his team are ready to go. We just need to support them.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much for being here. We were doing this study three years ago so we’ve been waiting a long time to get to this point.
We talked to Natural Resources Canada, NRCAN, who were developing a rapidly deployable northern house prototype. You might have heard of this. It would wind up being less than half the cost of building a typical house in place. This house can be built and assembled and shipped up in a container. We need to do a big catching up job here, and this seemed like something we could do quickly. Is there an update on that?
Mr. Van Dine: Thank you, senator, for raising that. We are excited about that project. Minister Philpott has been on the job for eight weeks, and we haven’t had the chance to take her to the facility out in Kanata, but it is an exciting possibility. It’s modular. You can create a two-storey or four-storey dwelling, or a number of different configurations. It also has the ability to be self-contained with a heating unit, as well as dealing with potable water and other facilities. It is an exciting piece.
Like all of these innovations, the one thing that we can all agree on is that in a northern, remote climate, we have to make sure that the products are reliable and predictable. Moving from research to testing to commercialization and readiness does take time, but there is quite a bit of interest in that particular innovation. I understand that our colleagues at Parks Canada are looking to try it out in some of their more remote settings, too.
Senator Raine: I was hoping it would have been tested by now and ready to go.
Mr. Van Dine: There is a level of testing going on. I understand that the caution principle is applying it to more institutional uses first before we make it available for residential and home purposes, but that work is under way.
Senator Raine: This problem of housing in the North has to be attacked on all fronts. We will have to use modular housing and prefab, all kinds of things. There is an urgency. We must get it in place because what we saw was really tough.
Senator Patterson: I apologize for being late. I was escaping a blizzard in Iqaluit this afternoon, and I just got in.
I would like to thank the minister for CMHC, Minister Duclos, for responding to the committee’s recommendation on direct transfer of funds to certain regions, as we recommended. That was a quick response and a good one, and I want to acknowledge that.
I have four quick questions to address to Minister Duclos. First, you tantalized us with your discussion about the National Housing Strategy and how it will respond to some key recommendations in our report, including the vital one, and probably one of our more important recommendations, of predictable long-term funding. The start-stop funding has been very paralyzing and dysfunctional in the northern territories.
The planning for the building season in the North in the coming year is happening now. The urgency of changes to the northern strategy is important. When you say the “near future,” can you give us an idea of how soon that is?
Also in that connection, your government response talked about having a northern housing forum planned for January 2018. Can you confirm that this forum is on track? Can members of this committee be invited to participate or observe? Will there be a summary of discussions made available to the public? That is my second question.
If I may keep going with some short questions.
Senator Dyck: Perhaps you should stop there so they can answer.
Senator Patterson: Thank you.
Mr. Duclos: Thank you for your very good questions. I will answer the first two and then hear the next ones.
Regarding the first one about how fast, the National Housing Strategy will be unveiled before the end of 2017. As you will see, it will be an important component related to both the northern needs and the northern conditions. With respect to the distinctions-based national housing strategy, that will take more time to unveil because of the importance of working respectfully and efficiently with indigenous peoples.
The second question was about the northern housing fund announced in Budget 2017. It is $300 million over 10 years. It is split across the three territories. In addition to that, in 2018 there will be announcements regarding indigenous-specific investments as an important component of the distinctions-based National Housing Strategies.
Senator Patterson: I asked about the national housing forum planned for January 2018 that was in the government response. I was wondering if that is still on track.
As far as the initiatives of CMHC that you referred to, there is an Affordable Rental Innovation Fund of $200 million that was launched recently and a $2.5-million program for low-cost loans through a new financing initiative. Has your government set aside specific amounts from those totals meant for the whole of Canada to be targeted directly at housing in Inuit Nunangat? If so, could you share those figures with the committee, now or later?
Mr. Duclos: For both of these initiatives, there are opportunities for northern housing and indigenous housing leaders and communities to apply. That is in addition, as I mentioned earlier, to the resources and opportunities that will be provided through the distinctions-based housing strategy for the Metis Nation, the First Nations and for the Inuit.
Coming back to the two initiatives you described, those are open to indigenous peoples because these funds are implemented in part to help increase housing affordability where that is a key challenge and to address the greater needs that some specific communities or families may face because of circumstances not completely captured by income alone. Because of those two things, it is clear that indigenous peoples and communities would be favourably encouraged to apply to these two initiatives.
Senator Patterson: May I ask Minister Philpott a question? I would like to welcome you to our committee, minister.
You mentioned the problem of Nunavut communities reliant on diesel, and you talked about the program that your department is undertaking to implement renewable energy projects in off grid, indigenous and northern communities getting off diesel.
Nunavut is the poster child of diesel reliance amongst the three territories. I am not proud of that. It is totally reliant; there are no alternative energy sources. We just elected a new government on Monday. There is a leadership committee meeting on November 21, so it will barely be in office before the end of the year when carbon pricing in Nunavut will start under the Pan-Canadian Framework, which Nunavut boldly committed to participating in.
Here is the problem: There was to be a joint study on the impact of that tax. The government and the Prime Minister promised there would be accommodation for the special needs of Nunavut, but we haven’t seen the results of that study. We burn about one fifth of our roughly $2 billion budget in diesel, sadly. This carbon pricing is looming and it will hugely impact the cost of everything, including housing.
I want to ask you, minister, if you are aware that we have a new government, we don’t know the impacts and everyone is concerned about the impacts that carbon pricing will have on already sky-high costs of living — the highest in Canada — including the cost of housing. Are you aware of this?
What I would really like to tell you is that I think Nunavut should be exempted from the application of this tax — I will call it the price — until we know the impacts and until we get further along in building alternative energy. The carbon price is supposed to drive people into alternative energy, but we don’t have any yet, or even the plans for it, in Nunavut. That is what I want to raise with you, Minister Philpott.
Ms. Philpott: Thank you. I am very interested in your views, which are obviously well informed by your experiences there.You are right that this is obviously a time for a new government to settle in at the same time as these new mechanisms are taking place.
Some of this falls into the category of Minister McKenna. She has worked hard in taking the lead in our government on the Pan-Canadian Climate Change Framework.
I think the question is about delaying using market mechanisms and waiting until such time as alternative energy sources are there, or using the mechanisms of pricing carbon as a way, across the country, to say, “One of the only ways that we will force ourselves to move forward is by saying that we need to place a price on carbon and, at the same time, invest those same resources into developing those renewable energy resources.”
There is no question that a place like Nunavut is arguably more vulnerable than probably almost any other place in Canada in terms of the impact that will have. There are resources now in a low-carbon fund that will support places like Nunavut to be able to implement those new technologies. It is not an area that I have tremendous familiarity with yet, but I would be very happy to get back to you on the specifics of how that will roll out. I would also be happy to speak directly with Minister McKenna about your concerns about the impact this will have on the people of Nunavut.
I think the people in Nunavut know better than anywhere else in Canada about how urgent it is that we aggressively attack climate change, because the impact it has had on housing is stunning. Unless we move forward with those other approaches, we will never be successful.
[Translation]
Senator Brazeau: Thank you for being with us this evening.
My question is general, and I am asking it for information purposes. Is there a specific reason why the financial resources — in this case for housing — are still transferred and filtered by provincial and territorial governments, rather than transferred directly to the Indigenous communities?
Mr. Duclos: Thank you for your question. This allows me to clarify something that I certainly said without being clear enough earlier.
Since 2016, for the first time in the history of the relationship between the Canadian government and the Inuit, transfers to the four Inuit regions, namely, Nunavut, Nunavik, Nunatsiavut and Inuvialuit, are made directly between the Canadian government and the four regions, rather than through the provinces. This situation often slowed down the transfers, incurred administration fees, reduced the impact of transfers and also reduced the capacity of the governments of the four regions to use the transfers as effectively as possible. So we were able to put this in place. The CMHC found it a little difficult initially because it had never done this before, but by working with Ms. Bennett’s and Ms. Philpott’s departments, we managed to do it.
Senator Brazeau: I imagine it wouldn’t be outlandish to think that if the federal government transfers were paid to the provincial and territorial governments, there could be administration fees for them that could be as high as 20 per cent, for instance. Is that correct?
Mr. Duclos: I don’t know the fees that were imposed before, but since 2016, the provincial and territorial fees have disappeared because the Canadian government transfers these funds directly to the four Inuit governments.
Senator Brazeau: I like the talk that tends more toward a nation-to-nation relationship, in terms of reconciliation as well. Do you think it would be time for the transfers to be paid directly to Indigenous communities to embellish this nation-to-nation relationship, rather than transferring these funds to the provinces that, let’s face it, aren’t necessarily experts in this area? Indigenous communities know their needs, so why today, in 2017, could we not transfer money directly to the communities?
Ms. Philpott: There are First Nations, particularly those in a self-governance situation, that have the resources transferred directly. It worked very well with the Inuit. With respect to First Nations on reserve, mechanisms have been put in place to transfer funds to them.
[English]
I’m sorry, I’m not very good in French.
Senator Brazeau: That’s okay.
Ms. Philpott: I think what you’re getting at is this relationship that has worked so well with the Inuit in terms of a direct transfer and taking control of how that money will be spent and what houses will be built as an example of, as you said, exactly the kind of relationship we want to be building with other indigenous communities across the country. To a certain extent, that does exist for First Nations on reserve and for self-governing First Nations, but I think there is much more that can be done in terms of not just the transfer of funds but the transfer of decision-making and control over how those funds will be spent, along with the longer-term funding relationships.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Welcome here tonight. Minister Philpott, you mentioned that three Inuit regions have received $80 million from the budget of 2016. Is this budget for each community, or does every community have to share this $80 million?
Ms. Philpott: The $80 million for the three Inuit regions in Budget 2016 went with $15 million to Nunatsiavut, $15 million to Inuvialuit and $50 million to Nunavik. Within those land claim agreements, governments, depending on the circumstances, then had the capacity to make decisions as to which communities — and they worked with our department to look at where the priority needs were. I’m sure that you can get more information from the department as to how those decisions were made, but many communities already had lists in terms of what their priority infrastructure needs were.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: How much of this money went to actual housing? There are shipping costs, as you know, because they are remote communities. Was it actually $80 million?
Mr. Van Dine: You’re absolutely correct. The cost of a house in any of these locations takes into account all the factors that you mentioned. To suggest that we can separate between the transportation costs and the lot development costs and building the pads necessary, those were all included in that.
What I would say is that we do have numbers in terms of numbered units produced with that amount of money provided, and by far, based on the experience and the capacity that’s in Nunavik, the Makivik Corporation has been able to build more houses per dollar than the other two regions. In the case of Makivik, they were able, with their $50 million, to produce 144 units, which is quite astounding given that they are dealing with all of those factors that you had mentioned.
In the other regions, they were doing about 34 units in the Inuvialuit Settlement Region. They have slightly different transportation advantages and disadvantages compared to other units. In Nunatsiavut, we have a steeper hill to climb and we’ve got a smaller number of units per dollar spent in Nunatsiavut, but I do believe that, over time, Nunatsiavut will start generating the efficiencies that the other regions are starting to demonstrate.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Thank you.
Senator Dyck: Apparently, the ministers may have to leave shortly, and I wonder if you would mind if we had one question from Senator Raine and Senator Watt.Senator Raine and Senator Watt could do one quick question. Then we can decide what to do afterwards because the other departmental officials will, I believe, stay to answer other questions.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much. My question is about your portfolio in terms of delivering services to the First Nations and Inuit and indigenous people. I think one of the most compelling sessions we had were with Inuit youth explaining the impact of the lack of housing on education and how, in fact, many young people were dropping out of school, starting families very early, getting on the housing list, and almost incentivized to get on the housing list. Others graduated from high school, went to university, only to find, if they were applying for a job back home, that there was no housing available for them and they were at the bottom of the list. Basically, some of them just decided to stay in the south.Could you take a good look at that? This isn’t to do with the report so much, but in following up, one of the most important things we can do is give hope for young people to have education and training and to use the housing list as a bit of incentive.
Ms. Philpott: I think that’s an excellent point. You are sort of rolling out all the realities of why housing is so critical. I think about things as it relates to services in terms of the number of young people that want to go get training and then return to their communities as nurses, teachers, social workers, engineers and accountants but don’t have a place to come back to and stay. One of the challenges we have in services is finding a home for a new Inuit nurse to be able to live in Nunavut and address the tuberculosis epidemic there, but there is no place for the nurse to live in some of these communities. It’s a vicious cycle, but that’s why housing is such an essential piece of solving not just where people live but how they learn and work.
Senator Raine: We were astounded to find some staff housing —
Senator Dyck: Senator Raine, we are short of time.
Senator Watt: Allow me to thank you for your presentation and for being here and letting us know which department is doing what. We may not necessarily all agree on everything, but there is a lot more to it than we have discussed.
I want to let you know that money doesn’t stay in the North. Money goes back to the south, almost every penny of it. For some of the young people that have tried to create companies, they have too many competitors from the south. They generate money from architects and engineers, and when they go up North they use their own equipment and make deals with the companies. It is preventing us from moving ahead. I want you to take that into consideration.
The other thing I would like to say is I thank God for the Aboriginal Committee. When the budget was made in 2016, we realized it was the first time that it dealt with the ethnic component. It was not a big argument to enter into. We used that and took advantage of it, the fact that for the first time in the history of the budget it mentioned an ethnic component.
So we made a recommendation as a committee to the department to let the money go directly to the people. Thank you very much for letting that happen. That made a big difference to the community.
By doing that, we created a bit of a problem, and I want you to know this. On the provincial side, the Province of Quebec was reluctant to deal with the maintenance that is normally provided. Has that been rectified? That’s one question.
The other issue that I would like to mention to you is that today, the kind of housing that is being put up costs anywhere between $350,000 and $500,000. When they do the renovations on those same houses, it still costs the same amount. Why are we throwing money into the houses that have already pretty well deteriorated? When the houses continue to be airtight, the building gets sick. If we have nothing to breathe through, we get sick. The house acts the same way. In the North, that is a big problem.
The other big problem that I see is the septic tank is shoved in between the two floors into the building. There is an overflow. Where does the overflow go? The bottom of the building, completely. Then they pull it out, renovate it and patch it up. That costs the government $500,000. Look at that. Thank you.
Senator Dyck: Senator Watt, you had two questions. Ministers, if you would like to respond.
Mr. Duclos: I will be able to answer two of your questions, and the third one I will ask my CMHC colleagues to provide precision.
You know more about the Makivik housing corporation than I do. What I know about them is that they are very proud of the fact that with the housing investments which they make, they have a considerably larger impact on local businesses and local workers than they would otherwise see from their perspective.
The second thing is about the decisions that are made when it comes to renovating or constructing new housing. Again, the best decisions would normally be made by people based in the local communities. They can observe with their eyes and assess with their minds the best cost benefit decisions that can be made. That’s my modest view. Perhaps we could discuss that topic.
Third, about the fact that, as you said, in Quebec when it was decided, based on the input that we have received in part from your distinguished group of people, that the transfers would go directly to Nunavik, then, as you said, there was a little sense of anxiety on the part of Quebec. There was an important discussion —
Senator Watt: Has it been rectified? That was my question.
Mr. Duclos: That’s why I’m turning to my CMHC colleagues who are well aware of this issue.
Mr. MacArthur: I’m going to have to get back to you. We are aware that that was an issue in the N.W.T., and I know in the N.W.T. it was rectified. I would have to talk with SSQ, and we can come back to you.
Senator Watt: So it is a possibility that it is still not rectified?
Mr. MacArthur: I’m not sure. I don’t want to speculate.
Senator Dyck: Thank you, ministers, for appearing before the committee this evening and answering questions from the committee members. On behalf of all the members of the committee, I thank you for that.
I would also like to express my gratitude to the committee members for their questions. We are very fortunate that we have Senator Patterson and Senator Watt, who have lived and still live up North and, therefore, bring that lived experience.
This is the second round of questioning with the officials.
Senator Raine: Again, it’s very good of you to be here.
I’m always conscious of the time that’s going by because these are families in housing that is just unbearable. I guess I’d like to ask the three of you what can be done to expedite changes in terms of the quality and quantity of housing in the North. Maybe think out of the box and think about your little wishlist. I don’t know if you can do that as officials, but maybe there are some things that we don’t know about that would give us some comfort because I personally believe that the ability of the people who live in the North is absolutely outstanding. What can be done? What can we do?
Mr. MacArthur: I believe it was at this committee that I was asked about our youth internship program and what the number was. At that time, I was able to answer, “Five.” We thought about that and about the youth and what more we could do with the dollars that were available. We took that from that five that was inadequate and translated that into 76, including 62 Inuit youth. They’ve gotten real hands-on experience so that they’re able to do things in housing in the North. That’s from using the resources that are at our disposal in a different way to bring more to the North.
CMHC works with the housing corporations in the North, and we work very closely with them to ensure that the money is expended in the time frames in which we imagine it to be. We work with them to ensure that they’re able to get that out. We have good relationships with them. We meet with them on an ongoing basis to see what else needs to be done. We have research that we’re doing, culturally appropriate. We’re very open to those ideas. We try to squeeze every dollar that we can. To us, we talk about units. We understand very much that it’s about families in there, and it’s about changing lives. That’s what the house does. It helps to change the lives. So we’re pushing that.
I think we were able to deploy the investments in northern housing. We are talking quietly with the northern territories now about how we need to deploy the $300 million that is in the budget quickly because of the funding profile. We’re talking about how we can best do that quickly, in quite a practical way, in a non-bureaucratic way, because we truly understand that, absolutely, you need to start thinking about the housing now for next spring if it’s going to land. We try to be practical about things, and we try to be understanding of that. Where we can squeeze something harder, we squeeze something harder to maximize the utilization of that.
We’re not opposed, as Senator Sinclair asked. If there are innovative ideas on how we could do housing or financing differently, we’ll deploy those tools, and we would be very open to those. When we put the innovation fund together, we thought about, “What kind of guidance do we need,” and we choose somebody from Northern Property REIT, who have experience in the North, so that they could guide us when we see the project.
It’s a continuous effort, and we care deeply about the issue. To me, it’s beyond the dollars. It’s beyond the units. It’s about creating equal opportunity for the folks we serve in the North.
Mr. Tremblay: It’s tough to follow that and add anything. I think what Charlie was saying is really to the point.
One of the things that we’ve been more open to as a government is actually open ideas and not exporting the southern way up North. That has proven not to work, obviously, over the years. We wouldn’t be in such a housing situation if things had worked beautifully.
As I mentioned, through the National Housing Strategy, we held a lot of consultations with all Canadians. Specifically, we had expert round tables in the North, and we have to continue that. We have to work with our partners, the territories and the provinces, to avoid situations like the senator mentioned, where a great intention to have money delivered through an Inuit organization turns into a problem we need to resolve. We have to work better as partners, as Canadians, to deal with this issue.
Senator Watt: I thought I was finished. I even thought, like Senator Sinclair, that I was not going to raise my voice again, but you’re giving me the opportunity. Thank you.
I, too, appreciate the fact that you people are giving us some inside view to your department and what is happening. One thing I would like to say is that, when it comes down to the point of training the people, you might be focusing in the wrong area. I would like to mention that to you. If you identify a certain amount of money and a formula that is being worked out specifically geared toward Nunavik, if we receive that fund, we can manage that fund. We can administer the fund. We can create programs. We can create training programs without any help from the outside. So why don’t you come up with this idea of giving a lump sum? Let us deal with all of the training needs. I think you will be much further ahead in terms of money and where it’s going. It would make more sense. At least the money will not be going back down South, every penny of it, and it would stay and would circulate in the community. We need economy, the same as the South. We are no different when it comes down to the point of economic requirements. There is the high cost of living, high cost of transportation. Our purchasing power, in Kuujuaq, only represents 25 cents.
I guess my question is: Would you be willing to entertain this idea, to see whether the money could go directly where it should be going, not channelled through the provincial government? Let us take care of it on our own. Do you see a possibility of entertaining that concept? You don’t have to answer me on that right now, but think about it.
Mr. Van Dine: Thank you, senator. I would like to build on some of the comments that have been expressed so far and maybe add onto the direction that I think Senator Raine was pointing to.
Just on a note of optimism, I guess, the one thing about the North and the regions that you very well know is that the story is not quite finished yet. The story continues to be written, and the people telling those stories and writing those stories are now the folks that live there more than the folks that live elsewhere and are looking at it from a much more nostalgic point of view.
Senator Watt: We’re tired of micromanagement. Let’s put it that way.
Mr. Van Dine: In December of last year, the Prime Minister announced that he was interested in looking at replacing Canada’s northern strategy with a new Arctic policy framework. While work on that is in its early days, you will recall that Minister Bennett retained Mary Simon to provide some advice on how that should be done.
We are fortunate to have the views of Mary to give us some thoughts on how to approach that, but the essence of her comments was to provide the opportunity for sustainable economies to be the source of self-determination. If local communities had the education, the jobs, the economies and the economic opportunity, they themselves can start solving some of these larger issues.
Your suggestion is a very good one. I think it is exactly on par with the kinds of ideas that we need to be thinking about in terms of new solutions and new approaches. We look very much forward to working with the regional organizations and the territorial and provincial governments that will be very instrumental in helping us to formulate Canada’s new policies and strategies going forward.
Senator Sinclair: In the committee report, you may recall that there was a recommendation that the Climate Change Adaptation Program be reinstated. In the government response, there was an indication that the program has been changed and that now there are two new programs, the First Nations Adapt Program and the Climate Change Preparedness in the North Program. I am curious if you can tell us what portion of funding has been allocated to these two programs for information gathering purposes to minimize climate change impacts. Have you any information you can share with us?
Mr. Van Dine: Absolutely, yes. You are correct, two new programs were established, and some building on some work that had pre-existed from Budget 2016. I will quickly provide you with some updates.
With respect to climate change and adaptation, our department received $83.8 million over five years in Budget 2017 to build a better understanding of climate change and to guide adaptation measures, enhance indigenous community resilience through infrastructure planning and emergency management where flooding risks are increasing, and enhance resilience in northern communities by improving the design and construction of northern infrastructure. Specifically, that includes $25 million over five years to enhance climate change preparedness in the North. That was announced originally in Budget 2016 to support the development of resilient infrastructure.
That program speaks to providing funding to communities and organizations to adapt to climate change impacts by funding assessments of vulnerabilities, risks to climate change impacts, development of hazard maps, adaptation plans and the development of adaptation options related to building resilient infrastructure, including housing. It is a stakeholder-based program, so it is very much organized around a number of working groups that we have involving indigenous organizations and land claims organizations, as well as the territories and the provinces. It is $25 million over five years.
The second component includes $31.8 million over five years to create the indigenous community-based climate monitoring program to engage indigenous communities in monitoring climate impacts to enhance their understanding of climate change impacts on their livelihoods. It provides funding to support community-based monitoring initiatives, standardized data and advance the creation of networks of indigenous community-based initiatives related to climate change.
We are looking to another program that you may have noted in the budget, which was with respect to the Indigenous Guardians Program. There was a small pilot amount identified for that, and we’re hoping to connect those programs together to hopefully maximize their impact.
I believe that covers that pot. There is some off-diesel programming as well, and I can speak to that if you like.
Senator Patterson: Recommendation No. 11 called on the development of building codes for the North. We pointed out — and I’m directing this to the both officials — that the present national building code is a code that probably works well in the South but there are problems with heat recovery ventilators freezing up from snow accumulation and condensation. There was a recommendation that CMHC, INAC and other departments work on a building code for the North.
I asked the National Research Council representatives at the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources on October 19 and was disappointed to hear basically, “We hope to start this project within the next year. We have the partners together. We have the expertise to develop this code.”
Houses have been built in the North for decades. We could be getting a bit more efficiency out of those homes and a lot more longevity and adaptation to the northern climate. We just hear that the departments have just got together and are hoping to start within the next year. Well, we made that recommendation two years ago.
Could I have some assurance that this will make sense and it will be a priority? I know there is a lead department that is not one of yours, but you guys are the significant funders of housing in the North. Can I have some comments on whether or not this will get done, please?
Mr. Tremblay: As you mentioned, both the Crown corporation and the department here are not the lead, but we will certainly convey the urgency of this to our colleagues at NRC and see if we can move this file along as soon as possible.
Senator Patterson: I have a very specific question for CMHC, too. Perhaps I wasn’t clear when I asked your minister about it earlier.In the government response on the National Housing Strategy, the corporation talked about a key next step is a northern housing forum planned for January 2018, which will bring together federal, territorial, provincial, indigenous and northern stakeholders. Could you please tell us if that forum is on track for January 2018? Will members of this committee be able to participate or observe the forum? Will there be a summary of discussions made available to the public?
Mr. Van Dine: The specific reference was relating to our colleagues at CMHC involved in an ad hoc northern technical research committee involving the National Research Council, our colleagues at Natural Resources Canada, this department and our colleagues at Polar Knowledge Canada. I understand they have had an organizing discussion around that and their plans are to convene, but with your encouragement tonight we will absolutely come back to the organizers of that event to find out whether they are on track or not.
The participation that they’re looking at having involved in this includes federal, territorial and provincial indigenous and northern stakeholders. I don’t know how that extends beyond to include other interested members of the community, including members of the Senate, but will endeavour to find out what their intentions are and how wide they are extending their invitations.
In terms of their summaries and where they will be available, given the topic, I would be surprised if they were not, but not being in the driver’s seat of this event, I will again take that question and find out to what extent the documents for that will be made available subsequently.
Senator Patterson: I appreciate that.
You heard my concern about energy in Nunavut. I know that your department is the lead on the alternate diesel project, which is funded minimally for a pretty large area of Canada. I think it includes not just north of 60 but northern provinces. There are a lot of First Nations communities on diesel. Could you tell us where we will be able to get funding to implement renewable energy projects?
I think you’re taking the lead in discussing alternative energy. I was told by the Canadian Natural Gas Association that they weren’t welcome to participate in these consultations. I have a side question about whether fossil fuels are forbidden in the discussion. It is only wind and solar, which is great, but wind doesn’t always blow; the sun doesn’t always shine.
How does your department see your work translating into the implementation of alternate energy projects in these diesel-reliant communities? You don’t have the budget to put them in place. The minister mentioned the Green Fund. Are you pooling other resources? Are you collaborating with other departments in your important work?
Mr. Van Dine: I think you have put your finger on an important fact. The known costs of a major shift that you have just described are quite substantial, and the dollars that we do have allocated at this point will only go partway to solving the overall problem.
We are working closely with our colleagues at Natural Resources Canada as well as Infrastructure Canada, who are important partners in this. Infrastructure Canada is involved in bilateral relationships with each of the provinces and territories in putting in place an agreement around an Arctic Energy Fund, which is either $300 or $400 million in Budget 2017 commitments. That is an important contribution. We would be looking to partner with territories and provinces to ensure that those dollars complement whatever we do through our own programming.
Additionally, long-term solutions in terms of energy supply are things that do require some long-term thinking. We are at the very early stages of trying to look at all the alternatives available to help solve that problem, including financing. There are certainly growing interests by some of our indigenous development corporations who themselves see the potential to participate in capital contributions, equity participation and utility-type endeavours. That is exciting in terms of how we might want to explore that to ensure, as Senator Watt pointed out, that the economic dollars that flow to the region stay in the region and generate more opportunity.
Senator Dyck: That is the end of our second round of questioning.
I would like to thank our witnesses on the second half of this evening: Michel Tremblay, Senior Vice-President, Policy, Research and Public Affairs from CMHC; Charlie MacArthur, Senior Vice-President, Regional Operations and Assisted Housing from CMHC; and Stephen Van Dine, Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada.
Thank you, gentlemen, for answering the questions from our senators.
(The committee adjourned.)