THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL FINANCE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Wednesday, February 26, 2020
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 12:15 p.m., pursuant to rule 12-13 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Maxime Fortin, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, there is a quorum and as clerk of the committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair.
I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
Senator Marshall: I’d like to nominate Senator Percy Mockler as chair of this committee.
Ms. Fortin: Are there any other nominations?
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Marshall that the Honourable Senator Mockler do take the chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Fortin: I declare the motion carried, and I invite Senator Mockler to take the chair.
Senator Percy Mockler(Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: I have been in very close campaigns before; so to every senator, thank you for your confidence.
I want to thank everyone for choosing the National Finance Committee. It’s an important vehicle for what we’ve always strived to have — I call it TAP, transparency, accountability and predictability — for Canadians across the board, from any government.
[Translation]
Thank you for your trust. Sometimes, our responsibilities go beyond the responsibilities assigned to us when we were sworn in as senators. The important thing here is to ensure ongoing transparency and accountability. When it comes to spending Canadians’ money, we must also ensure that the estimates are established in the best way possible, in keeping with our government’s decisions.
[English]
On behalf of the committee, I would like to thank the clerk, Ms. Maxime Fortin, for the leadership she provided to our committee in the previous Forty-second Parliament, and now for the first session of the Forty-third Parliament.
[Translation]
Thank you for your dedication, integrity and consideration for senators and their responsibilities.
[English]
To Alex Smith and Shaowei Pu, thank you for your leadership and for providing us with the best knowledge so we can do our job on National Finance.
We will now proceed, honourable senators, to the election of a deputy chair. I’m ready to receive a motion to this effect.
[Translation]
Are there any nominations for the position of deputy chair of the committee? Senator Forest-Niesing, would you like to nominate someone?
Senator Forest-Niesing: I’d like to nominate Senator Forest for the position of deputy chair of the committee.
The Chair: Senator Forest-Niesing moves that Senator Forest be appointed deputy chair of the committee. Are there any other nominations?
[English]
Senator Duncan: Chair, is my understanding correct that the deputy chair and chair are for the service on this committee, for the life of this item, until the permanent committee is struck?
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Duncan. I will ask the clerk to clarify.
Ms. Fortin: The motion to elect membership to the committee will expire, if you wish, at the earliest of the three following opportunities: April 1; if there is a new Selection Committee report with new membership; or if the Senate appoints new members in any other way, through a motion. Once the membership falls, there will be a new election of a chair and deputy chair.
Senator Duncan: Thank you.
The Chair: Any other nominations?
[Translation]
I see that there aren’t any other nominations. I declare Senator Éric Forest elected to the position of deputy chair. Congratulations, Senator Forest.
Senator Forest: Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you, honourable senators. As you know, the committee held its organizational meeting in December, so we don’t need to go through all the routine motions.
I will ask the clerk to clarify that item as well. We can simply agree that all the motions adopted on December 5, 2019, continue. For clarity, I will ask the clerk to give us the necessary information.
[Translation]
Ms. Fortin: I don’t know whether you have any questions. However, since the committee already held an organization meeting in December, and unless there are objections, you can simply decide to proceed with the same motions adopted in December. These motions are the routine motions addressed at the organization meeting.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, do we agree that today, February 26, 2020, the committee will adopt the routine motions that were adopted on December 5, 2019?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you, honourable senators.
We are sharing the financial report with you, and this is the last item before we move to other business.
I’ll read the following: As per rule 12-26(2), each committee has to table a report on the expenses incurred during the previous session. Therefore, a copy of the report prepared by the clerk has been distributed to everyone. This will become the second report of the committee.
Do I have a mover for the following motion? Please take notice of it, and if you have any questions, we will answer them.
Senator Marshall: I so move.
The Chair: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Marshall, as per rule 12-26(2), that the report that was circulated to all senators be adopted.
Any questions? If not, is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Honourable senators, we now have the option of going in camera or staying in public. This is to address the workload and to identify the departments and witnesses that we want to call to the National Finance Committee.
Do you want to go in camera or stay in public?
Senator Marshall: I don’t have a problem with staying in public. It is not confidential.
The Chair: I see there is a consensus; therefore, we will stay in public.
Next, I will ask Alex Smith, our Library of Parliament analyst, to update you with the mandate we have received from the Senate of Canada, and also on the workload based on the availability of days for receiving and asking for witnesses. Would you please bring information on that matter?
Alex Smith, Analyst, Library of Parliament: Thank you, senators. As members may be aware, the committee has received an order of reference from the Senate to study the Supplementary Estimates (B), the second and final supplementary estimates for this fiscal year.
The committee has an option. In the past, it has held between three and four meetings on the supplementary estimates; 8 to 10 organizations are selected from the supplementary estimates to appear before the committee. The committee should prepare a report for the Senate’s consideration by March 25, because the appropriation bill will shortly be coming before the Senate. That would leave the next sitting week, which is starting March 9, with the committee slots on March 10 and 11.
The committee has received an order of reference that allows it to sit while the Senate is sitting. In the past, the committee has often had more than just the normal two meetings. It may have additional meetings. One thing for the committee to consider is how many meetings it would like to have on the supplementary estimates and which organizations it would like to call before it.
The Chair: Are there any comments, senators?
Senator Marshall: A preliminary comment is that sometimes when we have our panels, we’ll have three departments for a one-hour panel, but I find two departments are plenty. Looking at Supplementary Estimates (B) and at the dollar values, I’d like to have Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Department of Indigenous Services, Department of National Defence and the Department of Natural Resources. Those would be my top picks for appearing before us.
I would also like to have someone from Treasury Board come in and talk about estimates reform, because I understand that’s off the table. I’d also like to have whoever is responsible for doing the results for 2018-19; they aren’t on the government website yet. All we have is 2017-18, so we don’t have the benefit of looking at the performance reports. So we’re sort of looking at Supplementary Estimates (B) in a vacuum.
Senator Smith: I have a question. With our calendar in front of us, how many meetings can we have — in terms of what availability of time we have — so we can put that in perspective to the feedback we’re receiving with regard to the departments we want to talk to?
Mr. Smith: The committee would have one sitting week of meetings. The committee can choose how many meetings it wishes to have in that period of time. To have a report to the Senate Chamber by March 25, the committee would need to consider its draft report on March 24, so that’s just the one sitting week after this week.
Senator Smith: Do you propose that we would need to have any additional meetings to make sure we are able to evaluate, as completely as possible, the information that will be presented to us?
Mr. Smith: The committee can have additional meetings. It has its two ordinary time slots. In the past, it has added perhaps a meeting on the Wednesday or Thursday. It depends on the will of the committee and if they would like to have additional meetings. You could have three or four meetings during that week, if the committee wished.
The Chair: Starting immediately after this meeting, when you look at the book you have received, any senator that would like to propose to the steering committee can do so. For the time being, the steering committee will be the deputy chair Senator Forest and the chair. So by the end of tomorrow afternoon, if you could please suggest, through the clerk, the witnesses and the departments you would like to have. Then on Friday, Senator Forest and I will look at the number of witnesses proposed by each senator. And following the question of Senator Smith, if there is a need to add on to what was proposed and shared with you by Alex, at that point in time, we will inform you at our first meeting, which will be next Tuesday morning.
Senator Smith: Is that set-up of meetings and time changes versus the traditional times we used to have, chair? Should I not have asked that question?
The Chair: If we agree, I would like to have a consensus that you will, by the end of tomorrow, send your recommendations for the departments that you’re looking at, plus witnesses that you would like to have. It is very similar to what Senator Marshall did a few minutes ago.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: I think that this is a great way of doing things. I have two suggestions for my colleagues. I think that the situation with the departments responsible for Indigenous issues is key. In terms of the $52 million in funding for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, it would be good to check whether there’s a link to the current situation.
The other issue is the risk of a pandemic with respect to the coronavirus. We should invite Public Health Agency of Canada representatives to speak to us in order to ensure that the budgets are sufficient.
[English]
Senator Duncan: In following up on Senator Forest’s points, there is money set aside for creating a pan-Canadian database for organ donation and transportation, and there is also a bill in the other place on this particular issue. How it’s proposed that these databases and government departments might be working together may be a useful exercise for us to investigate.
The Chair: Do I also have consensus that the steering committee, composed of Senator Forest and I, as chair, will look at the list that will be provided so that next Tuesday we can bring to your attention exactly the number of hours, as per the question from Senator Smith? In the meantime, it will be flexible enough that, if need be, we could add on next week.
Senator M. Deacon: I want to clarify the next week, please. Next week is a week that the Senate is not sitting. The week of March 9, we’re all back.
First, perhaps I made an assumption. Are we continuing with our regular Tuesday at 9:30 and Wednesday at 6:30 meeting times? There was some discussion around that night one changing, so I want to make sure I have that right first before I add to the bundle.
The Chair: It is very similar to a question Senator Smith put forward. But for additional information, Senator Deacon, yes, next week we’re not here. That’s why, on Friday, the steering committee will decide on the witnesses in order to get the proper documents from the library, and also information from our analysts and the clerk.
This is in preparation for the first meeting that we will have. It will be Tuesday, March 10. Before I move on to answer the question that was raised by Senator Smith and Senator Deacon, do we have consensus that the steering committee will be composed of the chair and deputy chair for the responsibilities that we have at National Finance? There is consensus. Thank you, honourable senators.
To answer the question that was raised on the hours and the timing of our meeting, I would like to bring to your attention that as the former chair, I did have discussions with senators from National Finance to ask for the authority of the Senate that instead of our regular Tuesday meeting slot from 9:30 to 11:30, if consideration could be given to us for starting at 8:30 and finishing at 10:30. That would be the new time, if it’s accepted.
Then when we look at Wednesday night, rather than having 6:45 to 8:45, we would ask in a letter, through the clerk, to be considered for the 11:30 to 1:30 slot on Wednesday. Comments were made by the senators that, for example, when we sit on Wednesday evenings and because we have many public servants that come in to support the leadership through the minister and/or deputy ministers, there is a cost to that. If we would be permitted to sit from 11:30 a.m. to 1:30 p.m. on Wednesday, then we could continue our meetings in the afternoon and then the public servants would be available for us during regular work hours.
This was information shared with me, and now I open any comments from the present senators.
Senator Marshall: I like the proposed time frames. I do find that on Wednesday evenings, sometimes we don’t finish at 8:45; we go a little bit later. Most of us start 7:30 or 8 in the morning, so it is a long day. I would support both of them, especially the change in the Wednesday meeting.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you for your work on that, and for listening to the feedback from senators last spring. I think a big piece is about the use of our public sector dollars and folks coming in at night. They became really large groups on Wednesday nights. Leaving their family lives aside for a moment, the work and the preparation wasn’t just involving one or two people; it was a minimum of 16 or 17 on Wednesday nights. I fully support those two changes with good thought.
Senator Boehm: I would like to add my support as someone who, in a previous life, used to have to sign off on overtime. I saw big numbers coming, as Senator Deacon said, to these meetings, so I think this change would be very welcome.
Senator Duncan: I have two points. I fully agree with the Wednesday change. I think that’s a very good one. I do have a concern about Tuesday morning. Just as Senator Marshall has pointed out, the 8:30 to 9:30 time frame might be required in our offices for some. My final point is a concern that going forward, we could adopt this or put it forward to the leadership of our groups. There might be a whole different committee makeup after we’re finished with this. Would it be a permanent change or would it be a temporary measure to see how well it goes?
The Chair: Are there any other comments on that matter, honourable senators?
[Translation]
Senator Forest: It’s a very good change. We must see how to make the adjustment. I think that it’s good to hold the meetings on Wednesdays because we could take the Wednesday evening time slot, if necessary. As far as witnesses are concerned, this would give us more flexibility.
[English]
The Chair: Are there any other comments on the matter? If not, it is not written in stone that it will be accepted. However, I need consensus around the table that we will ask, and it would be something like this, with the clerk, through the proper level of authority in the Senate of Canada: Is it agreed to request permission to change the committee’s regular time slots for the remainder of the session for the following new ones, on Tuesday from 8:30 a.m. to 10:30 a.m., and on Wednesday from 11:30. a.m. to 1:30 p.m.?
If there is a consensus around the table and the comments have been made, we will then ask our clerk, Ms. Fortin, to write the proper letter and document to be sent to the authority of the Senate. Is there a consensus around the table?
Senator Forest-Niesing: I will indicate that I am in support of that. I would qualify that by saying if there appears to be any kind of reluctance with respect to both time slot requests, I think we do agree that as a priority we would be wanting to focus on a change for the Wednesday evening meeting in priority to the change that’s being proposed for the Tuesday morning.
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Duncan: For clarity, are we asking for the life of this Parliament or parliamentary session or the committee? What’s the time frame again?
The Chair: On this, Senator Duncan, you did bring up the leadership. This will be shared with the leadership. On the format and process, I’ll ask the clerk to advise the committee on the next step, after we have the consensus to write the letter and make the request.
Ms. Fortin: It is up to the committee to decide whether you prefer to ask for the remainder of the session or until the end of March. This is what I will put in the request. If you do ask for the remainder of the session and there’s a new committee with new membership, they could also request to go back to the old time slot, ask for a new one. It’s really up to you.
Senator Klyne: Can you remind me of the motion, because I think that’s outside the scope of this committee. Under that motion, it was set up for a specific purpose.
The Chair: The request would be, is it agreed —
Senator Klyne: No, the motion that established this interim committee.
The Chair: The motion that established the interim committee.
Senator Klyne: We have terms of reference and I don’t think it is beyond the purpose —
The Chair: We will provide it to you.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: Until we find the motion, I would suggest, given the evolution of the culture in the Senate, that we propose these changes within the current mandate. We would then see whether all these changes help things run more smoothly. The committee would then need to go back to the changes on a permanent basis.
I would suggest that the schedule be changed at the interim committee stage. Based on my short experience in the Senate, that’s my suggestion.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Forest.
[English]
Senator Klyne, to answer your question — and thank you, senators for providing clarity on this — Senator Gagné said:
Honourable senators, I give notice that, at the next sitting of the Senate, I will move:
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance be authorized to examine and report upon the expenditures set out in the Supplementary Estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2020; and
That, for the purpose of this study, the committee have the power to meet, even though the Senate may then be sitting or adjourned, and that rules 12-18(1) and 12-18(2) be suspended in relation thereto.
And then we had notice on the same day — accepted by the Senate of Canada — to give notice at the next sitting of the Senate:
That, notwithstanding rules 12-2(2) and 12-3(1) and usual practice, the Honourable Senators Bellemare, Boehm, Deacon (Ontario), Duncan, Forest, Forest-Niesing, Klyne, Marshall, Martin, Mockler, Smith, Tannas and Dawson be appointed to serve on the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance until the earlier of April 1, 2020, the adoption by the Senate of a report of the Committee of Selection recommending the senators to serve as members of the committee, or new members being otherwise named by the Senate.
Therefore, the responsibility, Madam Clerk, is that this committee is reconstituted and in the event that, going forward, if there are new members on this committee, we will have to go back to the Senate, I believe.
I’m being informed on the legal side that the motion we would consider to make the changes will continue, going forward, with the new membership.
Senator Smith: Just for clarification, my understanding of what you said is this committee was struck to review supplementary estimates, which has to be reported by March 31 or April 1, right?
The Chair: Yes.
Senator Smith: And at that point, a review will be taking place to set up the final committee for this session, is that correct?
The Chair: Yes.
Senator M. Deacon: In support of my colleague, with the interim language — if I understood Senator Forest — it was to make these time changes work for this committee operating right now.
In the bigger picture, with the folks that are organizing and doing all the committees, I wonder if we want to have this time change beyond the work of this interim committee. I feel like we might need to do it sooner rather than later so the opportunity will be accepted to do so, in light of all the other committees; I don’t know. But that’s one concern I would have if we don’t make the commitment now.
The Chair: Is there a consensus to do it now? If there is a consensus, we will ask the clerk to proceed in writing the letter. Is there consensus, honourable senators, around the table?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Therefore we will ask the clerk to proceed. Are there any other questions or items you want to bring to the committee?
Senator Marshall: I know this committee is just established for Supplementary Estimates (B), but interim supply also has to be passed before the end of March. I’m looking at the parliamentary calendar. The new committee — it might even be this committee — has to approve interim supply before the government won’t have any money for the new year. Have we thought about that, how we’re going to get both supplementary estimates reviewed, as well as interim supply?
Mr. Smith: That’s a bit of a tricky question. For the last two years, we had something called Interim Estimates, and that was to give the government money for the first three months of the year. That was a temporary change that had been made. So now we’re going back to an older process. And in that process, the Main Estimates are introduced in the other place on or before March 1. That means the Main Estimates will be tabled and made public before the end of this week in the other place. They may or may not be tabled in the Senate by that time.
At the moment, this committee only has an order of reference for the supplementary estimates. When the Main Estimates are tabled in the Senate, it is likely that this committee may also get a reference to study the Main Estimates as well.
There will be an appropriation bill for the Supplementary Estimates that the Senate will need to adopt before the end of the fiscal year, i.e. by March 31. And this committee has already thought about how to do a study and prepare a report for consideration by the Senate as a whole.
There will also be an interim appropriation bill or interim supply bill to allow the government to fund itself for the first three months of the year. In the past, this committee would start its study of the Main Estimates, call forward a number of organizations and present a report to the chamber before March 31, so when it considered that appropriation bill, it also had a report on the Main Estimates so that it could adopt the interim supply bill.
We don’t have much time. As a committee, we just have the following sitting week, starting on March 9, so we don’t even have an order of reference on the Main Estimates. So it makes it a challenge to follow the past practice.
One option is that it is not a requirement for this committee to have a report to the chamber for consideration of the appropriation bill for interim supply. The committee could not do a report. Alternatively, it could invite, for example, the Treasury Board Secretariat and talk to them about the process that existed in the past, the current process now, interim supply, and then have a shorter report, perhaps just based on that one hearing. It’s going to be very challenging to hold more hearings on the Main Estimates and have a more substantive report on that in the time frame available.
Senator Smith: Are we going back to Supplementary Estimates (A), (B) and (C) now that the plan that the former head of the —
Mr. Smith: As the senator mentioned, in the past two years, we have had two supplementary estimates, one in the fall and one in the winter, so we’re on Supplementary Estimates (B). In the past, we had a spring supplementary estimates, fall and winter. We don’t know for certain, but my guess is that in all probability we will once again have Supplementary Estimates (A), (B) and (C), so when this committee has a more permanent membership, it will have a lot on its plate because from April, May and June, it will have the Main Estimates, Supplementary Estimates (A) and the budget implementation bill to deal with by the end of June.
Senator Marshall: If we’re going to have witnesses starting at our first meeting back after next week, very early on, maybe even during the first meeting, I would like to have somebody from Treasury Board come in, because I don’t see us just giving blanket approval for interim supply.
The Main Estimates have to be down by the end of February, by March 1. I would like to know what Treasury Board’s plan is to see if we agree with it. We’re working on a tight time frame, and I can’t see approving a supply bill for interim supply without talking to anybody.
Could we get Treasury Board officials? That would be my suggestion. I would like to know what their plan is.
The Chair: We will. Are there any other comments? Are there any other items you want to bring to the table?
Just as a reminder, before I adjourn the meeting, the clerk will be sending to every one of us an email requesting your comments on witnesses and departments. It is to be sent before the end of the day tomorrow. We will then proceed. The first meeting will be on March 10, Tuesday morning, and you will be apprised of the time frame.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: Will the notice of meeting state whether it’s 8:30 a.m. or 9:30 a.m.?
The Chair: Yes. On that note, honourable senators, the meeting is adjourned.
(The committee adjourned.)