THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES AND OCEANS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Tuesday, June 15, 2021
The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans met by videoconference this day at 9 a.m. [ET] to study matters relating to fisheries and oceans generally, as stated in rule 12-7(11).
Senator Fabian Manning (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.
Before we begin, I’d like to remind senators and witnesses to please keep your microphones muted at all times unless recognized by name by the chair. Should any technical challenges arise, particularly in relation to interpretation, please signal this to the chair or the clerk, and we will work to resolve the issue. If you experience other technical challenges, please contact the ISD service desk with the technical assistance number that has been provided.
Please note that the use of online platforms does not guarantee speech privacy or that eavesdropping won’t be conducted. As such, while conducting committee meetings, all participants should be aware of such limitations and restrict the possible disclosure of sensitive, private and privileged Senate information. Participants should know to do so in a private area and be mindful of their surroundings. I’d also like to remind you that when speaking, you should be on the same interpretation channel as the language you are speaking. If there are no questions, we will now begin with the official portion of our meeting.
My name is Fabian Manning. I’m a senator from Newfoundland and Labrador, and chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. I would like to introduce the members of the committee who are participating in this meeting this morning: Senator Ataullahjan, Senator Busson, Senator Christmas, Senator Cormier, Senator Francis, Senator Kutcher, Senator Ravalia and Senator Ringuette. I welcome all of you and viewers across the country who may be watching.
Honourable senators, we are meeting under the general mandate that was referred to our committee on March 30, 2021. Today, we continue our study of the implementation of Indigenous rights-based fisheries.
On this topic, we are very pleased to welcome the Honourable Bernadette Jordan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard. She is joined by the following officials from Fisheries and Oceans Canada: Timothy Sargent, Deputy Minister; Jean-Guy Forgeron, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Harbour Management; Doug Wentzell, Regional Director General, Maritimes Region; Gorazd Ruseski, Director General, Indigenous Affairs; and Robert Lamirande, Special Advisor, Indigenous Affairs. Welcome to all of you, and thank you for joining us virtually this morning.
Colleagues, for the purpose of this meeting, the minister will be with us for the first hour of the meeting. Afterward, I understand the DFO officials will be staying online to take any remaining questions senators might have.
Minister, once again, I would like to welcome you to our meeting. The floor is yours when you are ready to begin.
Hon. Bernadette Jordan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard: Good morning, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the invitation to speak to the honourable members of this committee.
I am joining you today from my coastal home in Kespukwitk, in Mi’kma’ki, the traditional unceded territory of the Mi’kmaq people.
Before I begin, I want to take a moment to say that my thoughts are with the Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation and with all Indigenous communities across Canada as the country continues to grieve the loss of 215 children found buried at the former residential school in Kamloops. I was appalled and saddened to hear that news. It is a horrifying reminder of the work that still needs to be done to advance reconciliation.
I have been following the committee’s study, and I want to thank senators for undertaking this work and engaging thoughtful discussions with many chiefs and witnesses who have appeared before this committee. I also want to let this committee know that the Government of Canada fully supports Senator Francis’s Motion 40 that was adopted in the Senate last month. As we have this discussion today, I would be remiss in not recognizing the ongoing work of the members of this committee, in particular Senators Christmas and Francis, who come from communities that are directly impacted and who have always been part of the moderate livelihood discussion. I thank you for your input, and I look forward to comments and suggestions from all members of this committee.
Today, I am accompanied by my officials, as noted by the chair. After my brief remarks, my officials and I will be happy to answer your questions.
As the federal Fisheries Minister, it’s my responsibility to ensure that our marine resources are managed for the long term and in the public interest. It is also incumbent upon me to advance Canada’s commitments to reconciliation by ensuring that my department works closely with Indigenous peoples to manage Canada’s fisheries. This can only be done by working together on solutions that are consistent with the constitutional protections provided to Aboriginal treaty rights. Working nation to nation is integral to our approach to implementing the Supreme Court-affirmed treaty rights for the Mi’kmaq, the Maliseet and the Peskotomuhkati Nation at Skutik in order to fish in pursuit of a moderate livelihood.
When Canadians elected a Liberal government in 2015, our government expanded the mandate for moderate livelihood negotiations. Those changes led to two rights and reconciliation framework agreements being signed in 2019, and more recently, we introduced further flexibility to this process following feedback from First Nations. Those changes helped us move forward in an agreement with Listuguj First Nation. As you heard from Chief Gray, the five-year agreement puts in place a process for a collaborative fisheries management approach between the Listuguj Mi’kmaq and Fisheries and Oceans Canada. Nation-to-nation discussions continue with First Nations as we work to implement this right across Quebec and the Maritimes.
We’ve also been engaging earnestly with industry associations and their members. We appointed a federal special representative to advise us on how to strengthen the relationships in our fishing communities, and we are increasing our communications with the public, being open and transparent as we talk about what lies ahead.
Recently, as you know, our government introduced a new alternative path for First Nations to fish in pursuit of a moderate livelihood. This approach is in keeping with the Marshall decisions, which have guided DFO’s work for more than 20 years, and is based on three key principles: respect for conservation, transparent and predictable management, and reconciliation. Our goal is to have a fishery that is peaceful, productive and prosperous — one that upholds the Marshall decisions and ensures that the First Nations are able to exercise their treaty rights in a way that is reflective of their nation’s vision and needs.
Through this approach, we are working collaboratively with participating First Nations to develop moderate livelihood fishing plans that are unique to each community or aggregate, and that are authorized and licensed. Under this approach, First Nations can fish this season, in season, in advance of longer-term rights and reconciliation agreements.
As our fisheries are fully subscribed, this approach ensures that fishing efforts will not increase in order to help protect the long-term sustainability of our stocks. Additionally, having a well-established and regulated fishing season helps prevent overfishing and allows us to maintain the health of our shared and finite marine resources.
I would also like to emphasize that this is not the only approach but an option that is available should First Nations seek a shorter term plan to fish this year. Earlier this month, Canada and Potlotek First Nation reached an understanding for their community members to fish for a moderate livelihood and sell their catches this year. Potlotek’s fisheries plan was developed by the community with support from the Assembly of Nova Scotia Mi’kmaw Chiefs and the KMK Negotiation Office. We thank the community for their ongoing partnership, and we are pleased that this fishery will strengthen their community’s self-determination and economic self-reliance.
The 2021 fishing season is an opportunity for all of us to work together. While the path forward may be difficult at times, we are all striving towards a shared and common goal: the sustainable use of our fisheries while implementing the First Nations right to fish in pursuit of a moderate livelihood.
I am now happy to take your questions.
The Chair: Thank you, minister.
Senator Francis: Good morning, minister. Thank you for joining us.
A month after Potlotek First Nation sought an injunction to prevent your department from continuing to seize their lobster traps, which is a serious issue across the entire region, it was announced that an interim agreement was reached — after more than two decades — to allow community members to exercise their constitutionally protected treaty rights to fish and sell their catch in pursuit of a moderate livelihood this season. However, you and your department continue to unilaterally impose restrictions, including that harvesters fish up to 700 traps and sell their catch within the commercial season. Let’s be clear. This is not what real reconciliation looks like, and it is misleading to insinuate that it is. Why does your department continue to take such a paternalistic and damaging approach without providing a clear justification for infringement of our rights?
Ms. Jordan: Thank you, Senator Francis, for the question. Thank you also for all the work you have done with regard to moderate livelihood fisheries over the years.
I will say that the plan we have put in place was part of the fish plan that the Potlotek Nation put forward. The 700 traps is what they had actually requested. This is actually another option for First Nations to be able to fish this year. They are able to not only get out on the water but also sell their catches. The fisheries plan they put forward was one they developed themselves, as well as with the Assembly of Nova Scotia Mi’kmaw Chiefs and KMKNO. We were able to work with them to come to this understanding that they were able to exercise their right to a moderate livelihood fishery in a way they wanted with their community. The 700 traps that they have — they are able to determine who gets those traps, how many boats they are on and how many fishers they have out fishing with those traps. This was something that was actually done in cooperation with Potlotek First Nation.
Senator Francis: Mi’kmaq and Maliseet First Nations, as well as lawyers, academics and others, have been pleading with you and your department to make available the latest scientific information on the health of commercial stocks, yet you have not done so. The Supreme Court of Canada in Marshall I and II was clear that although the federal government has the right to regulate Aboriginal and treaty rights, such regulation must be justified. Can we please have your commitment that you will provide all the necessary information to demonstrate that the ongoing infringement of our treaty rights is justified?
Ms. Jordan: Absolutely. We released the science that we do. It has already been released, so that is available.
I will say, though, as the Minister of Fisheries, my priority has got to be the conservation of the stocks. We recognize that one of the things we heard loud and clear through ongoing conversations we had with First Nations was that they wanted to be part of the science that looks at how the stocks are faring. That’s one of the reasons we put together the Lobster Science Partnership Roundtable, which actually meets for the first time today, with a large number of the people at that table being from First Nations communities.
Senator Francis: Thank you, minister. Can you provide that information to our committee?
Ms. Jordan: Yes.
Senator Francis: Thank you.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you, minister, for being with us today.
Recent amendments to the Contraventions Regulations made pursuant to the Contraventions Act expand the list of offences the fisheries office can ticket both recreational and commercial fishers for. Will this impact the 2021 moderate livelihood fisheries season? If so, could you enlighten us, given the rather tenuous relationships we’ve witnessed between the RCMP and some of our Indigenous brethren? Thank you, minister.
Ms. Jordan: Thank you, senator.
The new regulations were actually put in place to make things easier so people didn’t necessarily have to go to court. I would like to turn to Jean-Guy Forgeron. Perhaps he can give a better explanation of the new regulations. Jean-Guy?
Jean-Guy Forgeron, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Harbour Management, Fisheries and Oceans Canada: Minister and Mr. Chair, I don’t know if you can hear me. I cannot put my video on because it was stopped by the host.
Vincent Labrosse, Clerk of the Committee: If I may interject, we have to see the witness if he is to answer the question. I will try to resolve the issue. In the meantime, can we proceed to a different question, senator?
The Chair: Senator Ravalia, do you want to follow up on that or just wait for your answer?
Senator Ravalia: I’ll wait for the answer.
Senator Kutcher: It is nice to see you again, minister. Thanks for being here, for having your team here as well and for your presentation and commitments to address these very complex issues.
In previous panels, the issue of systemic racism as a reason for continued conflicts in the fisheries has been raised. What are your thoughts on this concern that has been raised? If you think that systemic racism might be at play, how should this be best addressed?
Ms. Jordan: Thank you, senator, for that very important question.
As the Prime Minister has said, systemic racism exists everywhere in Canada. We have seen that at the Mi’kmaq communities in Nova Scotia. There was absolutely no tolerance for the situation that happened in Nova Scotia last year with regard to how First Nations were treated.
A lot of education needs to be done. I think the best way forward for all of us is to have a better understanding of treaty rights and what they mean for communities and people. We need to do a much better job when it comes to making sure people have that education.
I will say that the department has made efforts and taken steps to provide workshops to harvesters on treaties and treaty rights. They were very well received. They’ve actually asked for more of them to be added to their meetings, so those are ongoing discussions we will have with our commercial harvesters. We also had our special representative, Allister Surette, who did a very good report for us and talked about the challenges and understanding in some of these small coastal communities. Better communications coming from our department is also necessary as we move forward.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you, minister. I very much appreciate that.
In addition to the workshops, which we have heard some positive things about and some less positive, are there any specific plans that DFO has for addressing some of these particular issues that you raise?
Ms. Jordan: I’m going to turn to my deputy and see if he has any comments he would like to make further to what I’ve already talked about, because, as I said, I think education is going to be a key part. Tim, is there anything you want to add from a DFO perspective?
Timothy Sargent, Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Oceans Canada: Yes, minister, I’m more than happy to talk about some of the concrete actions the department has been taking.
Of course, the Fisheries Act was recently amended to enable consideration of Indigenous knowledge, collaborative development and management, and recognition of the equivalency of Indigenous laws. We’ve established a stand-alone DFO and Coast Guard Arctic region to better meet the unique needs of Inuit, First Nations and Métis communities in the Arctic. We have three reconciliation champions across the country whose job is to raise awareness and promote meaningful discussions about reconciliation within the department. We have a reconciliation strategy, which is an internal coach’s tool, that includes concrete actions across the whole department and guidance to staff as they build relationships with Indigenous partners.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you very much, deputy minister. That’s very encouraging. Do we know how effective those interventions have been?
Mr. Sargent: Certainly we’re very pleased with how we’re moving forward with our Indigenous partners across the country. We think these discussions and the work we’re doing have really contributed to moving forward the reconciliation agenda in the world of Fisheries and Oceans.
Ms. Jordan: But there’s always a lot more work to do, and we recognize that.
Senator Ringuette: Thank you for being here, Minister.
The Senate is currently reviewing Bill C-15. I would like to understand how you will be applying the notion of consent with regard to fishing rights for our Native communities once this bill is approved.
Ms. Jordan: Thank you, senator. That’s a very important question.
I have always said that we absolutely 100% recognize First Nations right to a moderate livelihood. This is something that I have been very clear on since the beginning. We need to make sure we are doing everything we can to keep the lines of communication open and to continue to have important conversations with First Nations communities. Of course, with UNDRIP, there’s going to be an added level of engagement with First Nations communities that is going to be so important. These are all things that we have to do. This isn’t just things we talk about; these are concrete actions that have to be taken.
I myself have met with all of the First Nations communities in Atlantic Canada with regard to this specific issue, but recognizing that the best way forward is through negotiations, through talking to people and making sure that we hear from everyone, that is how we are going to be able to move forward. Thank you.
Senator Ringuette: Minister, I want to understand how the notion of consent in Bill C-15 will be applied by your department. Thank you.
Ms. Jordan: Consent comes from negotiations. We will have to continue to have conversations around what reconciliation looks like in each individual community, but also with regard to the consultation process, through meetings. Consent comes from those negotiations. Consent comes from working hand in hand with First Nations as we move forward to ensure we address the concerns we hear and that we are making sure we move forward with a moderate livelihood fishery.
Senator Ringuette: Thank you.
Senator Cormier: Good morning, Minister Jordan.
[Translation]
During your testimony before the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, you stated that, as well as your department, the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs is actively involved in the negotiations, in the person of Minister Bennett. A number of witnesses have stated that your department does not seem to have the necessary mandate to be involved in negotiating agreements on fishing for a moderate livelihood.
For our benefit, and for the benefit of those listening to us, Madam Minister, could you be specific as to the difference between your role and Minister Bennett’s role in those negotiations, and between the role of officials from Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the role of officials from Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada?
[English]
Ms. Jordan: Thank you so much for the question.
I would like to clarify that we work hand in hand with many departments when it comes to reconciliation. This is a whole-of-government approach. DFO, of course, has the fisheries piece for all of the negotiations that happen across the country. It’s important that we continue to work with Minister Bennett and her office as she advances treaty reconciliation. I think that pretty much every coastal First Nation has fish as part of their treaty, so DFO is actively engaged with them, but I think it’s important I continue to work with Minister Bennett to better understand treaties and negotiations and to better understand the path forward. Of course, as the fisheries minister, I’ll be honest, I did not know that reconciliation would be a huge part of my file. It’s a Fisheries file, but now it’s so intertwined that I take a lot of lessons from Minister Bennett and I learn from her, but I recognize very much that DFO takes the lead when it comes to fisheries issues.
Senator Cormier: If I may, just to be more precise, what is your main challenge as minister towards that collaboration, to make sure that the right stakeholders are around the tables? It seems there is difficulty to have the right people in the right place to do the right things. Can you elaborate on this, please?
Ms. Jordan: As you’re aware, this is a very complex situation with regard to having 34 First Nations involved in moderate livelihood, the Marshall decision communities. And not everyone is the same and not everyone wants the same thing. Everyone has a different perspective on what a moderate livelihood looks like.
We’ve actually made a lot of progress with regard to how we approach these different communities. We’ve tried to be very flexible, recognizing that what might be a moderate livelihood in Bear River, Nova Scotia, is very different from what they want in Listuguj, Quebec. Making sure we have the right people around the table to address the specific concerns around what communities have said has been a challenge, but it’s also something we’ve made progress on.
We’ve heard from many First Nations that the mandate commitments were too long, the 10-year agreements were too long, so we changed that to 5 years. We have heard they didn’t want to negotiate as an aggregate, that they had individual community needs that they needed to address, so we changed that ability. Originally, the only way to have a moderate livelihood fishery was through a rights and reconciliation agreement. Now we have put in place a different path for communities.
I think making sure that we are addressing the needs as we hear them has been a challenge, but it’s also something that we have been very flexible on.
Senator Busson: First of all, I’d like to acknowledge that I’m coming to you from the unceded territory of the Shuswap people of British Columbia.
Minister, thank you very much for being here today. This question comes from Senator David Richards: Wouldn’t it help to alleviate tension on the water if the First Nations and commercial fishers were to drop their traps at the same time and with a regulated and registered quota that is fair to both parties?
Ms. Jordan: That’s a very interesting question. It is something that we have heard in the past with regard to a quota-based fishery. Lobster is actually an effort-based fishery. That is why we have the seasons for lobster, because we recognize that it is effort-based. Of course, everything we do at Fisheries and Oceans is with regard to conservation, to make sure that what we’re taking into account is going to make sure the stocks are sustainable for the long term, making sure we have the science we need to address concerns around stocks. Lobster has always been an effort-based fishery. That is why we have the seasons that we do.
Senator Busson: Thank you very much for answering that question. If I could ask one for myself now, if you can indulge me.
The Chair: Yes, you can.
Senator Busson: Thank you, chair.
As you have mentioned, and as we have talked through this part of the meeting, the focus of this season with regard to fisheries, the 2020-21 season, seems to be with regard to basically the issues that have arisen over the lobster fishery and the negotiation of rights-based Indigenous fishing rights.
I am from the West Coast. I’m wondering if your department has initiated any proactive negotiations with Indigenous fishers on the West Coast in order that we might expect a more proactive approach to the kinds of issues that I believe apply almost equally, if not equally, to fisheries across Canada and specifically the issues of the West Coast fishery.
Ms. Jordan: I will say that we actively engage with First Nations on the West Coast with regard to not only the commercial fishery that they are engaged in but with their FSC fishery as well. As you know, the moderate livelihood fishery is a Marshall-based decision for the bands in Atlantic Canada and eastern Quebec, so it is a bit different. We are in constant negotiations and communications with all coastal First Nations around their fisheries and rights and making sure they have access to the resources.
Senator Busson: Thank you very much.
Senator Christmas: Minister Jordan, when you announced the new-path policy on March 3, there was no meaningful consultation with the Mi’kmaq in Nova Scotia, and yet I understand that there was a series of workshops, as you mentioned, between DFO, CIRNA and the Canadian Independent Fish Harvesters’ Federation, and that elements of the new-path policy were discussed there. Why was there no consultation with the Mi’kmaq about the new-path policy?
Ms. Jordan: Thank you, Senator Christmas. I also thank you for all the conversations I have had with you over the last year and for your ongoing advocacy with regard to this. I know it is extremely important to you and the communities you have been part of.
Everything that I said in the March statement came from meetings we had with the First Nations communities. They wanted to develop their own fishing plans. That is what we have been working with them on. They wanted to be able to determine how those fishing plans were fished. We’ve made that possible. They wanted to be able to sell their catch. We’ve made that possible. They wanted to be able to determine in their communities who was able to fish those moderate livelihood fisheries. We’ve made that possible. All of that came out of ongoing meetings and conversations that we had with First Nations. Whether it was me, my ministerial team or department officials, there have been constant meetings with First Nations.
Nothing was said at industry tables with regard to negotiations. That is something that we are very firm on, that this is nation to nation. I don’t agree with the statement that you said that this was all discussed with industry as a path forward, because we take nation to nation very seriously. I have said right from the start that industry was not part of the negotiations, that this was all something to be done with the First Nations communities.
Senator Christmas: Thank you.
I have news releases dated from March 4 onwards from various communities that have denied being consulted on the new-path policy. I also understand that during the workshops, elements of the new-path policy were discussed with the federation. I can tell you that I first heard word of elements of the new-path policy from industry. I’m quite concerned about that, that there is no formal consultation process with the Mi’kmaq. I am very concerned that industry was given priority in the new-path policy and that they were consulted. It appears to me, minister, that the new-path policy is geared to the interests of the commercial fishery. I don’t expect you to answer that, but those are the facts that I have before me.
Ms. Jordan: Senator, I have always said that the negotiations that happen have to happen nation to nation. Of course, as minister, I will meet with industry. That does not mean I take my direction from industry, by any stretch of the imagination.
There was never discussion with industry in the negotiation process. This is something that has to happen with communities. I have met countless times with many different First Nations chiefs individually, with the assembly of chiefs, with every community within Atlantic Canada, and I will continue to do that because I think it’s really important that the best way forward is through those negotiations.
The Chair: Mr. Forgeron, perhaps you could help me out here in relation to the question from Senator Ravalia. Do you need the question repeated, Mr. Forgeron?
Mr. Forgeron: I believe the question was did the new Contraventions Act’s ticketing system, which applies to licences held on a number of federal regulations, have any possible impact on moderate livelihood fishing licences.
The fishing licences that are provided to First Nations are generally done under the commercial communal licensing system, so this new Contraventions Act ticketing system does not apply. However, if a First Nation decides to fish its licences in pursuit of a moderate livelihood under a normal commercial licence, those licences would fall under the Contraventions Act system and possible use of the ticketing system. Tickets are used at the discretion of our enforcement officers of our C&P agency.
Senator Ravalia: Given these new regulations, is there a potential for increased policing and therefore an increased vulnerability for people being ticketed for grey-area offences?
Mr. Forgeron: No, Mr. Chair. The purpose of the ticketing system is to avoid putting individuals who have committed minor offences through the court system as a means of enforcement. It’s like if you had a small speeding ticket. Instead of going to court to have that enforced, you actually just have a ticket. If you receive a ticket, just as if you had a speeding ticket, the individual who receives the ticket also has the option of having their day in court if they disagree with the ticket given to them by enforcement officials. It is something to ease the burden on individuals who, in our view, have had contraventions against the act regulations.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you very much for that. That’s very helpful.
Senator Francis: Minister, it was recently announced that Listuguj First Nation is asking the Federal Court to review your department’s decision to withdraw consent to allow fish harvesters to fish and sell lobsters in accordance with their constitutionally protected rights because of significant opposition from non-Indigenous local groups, in particular the Regroupement, and concerns that it would impact the chances that Minister Lebouthillier, whose riding is in the area, would not win a seat in the 2019 Canadian federal election. These allegations are serious and concerning, and I have no doubt there is some truth to them.
Given the serious implications, which include the loss of livelihood, increased violence and the rumours of an upcoming federal election, could you confirm to this committee and to the public at large that neither you nor your department are infringing on the constitutionally protected Aboriginal and treaty rights of Mi’kmaq, Maliseet or any other First Nations because of electoral concerns?
Ms. Jordan: Absolutely not. Senator Francis, I take my job seriously, and it is not about being re-elected. It is about making sure we are doing the right things as a government. The government has been committed to reconciliation since 2015, when we were first elected, and we will continue to do that.
With regard to the department specifically, as you know, the public service is non-partisan and acts accordingly based on what is in the Fisheries Act as well as the goals of reconciliation.
Senator Francis: Thank you.
Senator Cormier: Minister, since the recent events in Nova Scotia, I have to admit I’m sad and concerned as an Acadian about the impact of these events on the relationship between the Acadian people and the Aboriginal people. As you know, that relationship has been very important for the Acadians throughout our history. I still remember the events that happened in Burnt Church a couple of years ago, and it’s like we don’t really learn from these type of events. I feel that some Acadians, at least, and the First Nations are victims of the failure of the federal government to truly address the issue of fisheries rights. How can we prevent the situation that has occurred in Nova Scotia, minister, to ensure that the relationship between the Acadian people and the Aboriginal people is protected?
Ms. Jordan: Thank you, Senator Cormier.
One of the big challenges, of course, is the division that this has caused in our rural coastal communities. For generations, First Nations and commercial harvesters have fished side by side. There is now animosity between communities, which is very difficult. Federal Special Representative Allister Surette did a report for us with regard to what needed to be done in order to try to build those bridges back. We are working hard on better communication with communities, with industry and with First Nations. That is one the big challenges. Industry asked that they be at the negotiating table. We cannot have that as it is a nation-to-nation negotiation, but we do need to make sure that they are listened to and that they are aware of the path forward, as well as the education that needs to take place with regard to treaty rights. There is a lot of work to be done to try and rebuild those relations, but it is something I am committed to. We are working on it through the report we received from Mr. Surette.
Senator Cormier: Thank you.
Senator Christmas: Minister, you referenced the Surette report. There are a number of references to illegal fishing activities in the commercial sector. I also understand that DFO has increased its enforcement resources for the upcoming fishing season. What specific steps will DFO undertake to address these illegal fishing activities in the commercial sector?
Ms. Jordan: Our C&P officers, our conservation and protection officers, are there to uphold the Fisheries Act for all harvesters. They are there to make sure that illegal activity does not happen. They work very hard on the water in our communities. They are our community members, and they have a very tough job to do. But they do have to make sure that they do uphold the Fisheries Act, which is making sure that people are adhering to the terms of their licences, to make sure that we are not overfishing and to make sure that we do have the conservation objectives that are so important to everybody with regard to stocks. That is what the C&P officers are there for. I do not direct C&P. They know their jobs and they do them very well.
Senator Kutcher: Minister, the Aboriginal Fishery Guardian Program, which was developed in 1992, was a promising intervention that could be seen as part of local governance in fisheries. There were substantive recommendations, as I recall, made in 2015 to improve the program. Do you know if those recommendations have been fully implemented? How successful is that program currently? If it is successful, are there any plans to expand it further?
Ms. Jordan: I’m going to make a couple of comments and then turn to my deputy to address some of those questions.
The Guardian program is an extremely important program that should be built upon. We have heard from First Nations communities that they want more ability to be part of the Guardian program. We have seen it be very successful in other areas of the country.
I will turn to my deputy minister to dig in a little bit more on the specific questions that you had. Tim?
Mr. Sargent: It would be helpful to hear from Doug Wentzell who is our regional director general. He is closest to how those programs are operating on the ground in the Maritimes region of Nova Scotia.
Doug Wentzell, Regional Director General, Maritimes Region, Fisheries and Oceans Canada: Thank you, senator, for the question.
Mr. Chair, we work closely with Indigenous communities on opportunities to collaborate with respect to the management and compliance with the fishery. The Guardian program is a great opportunity to do that. We have been working at the various tables to pursue opportunities to further strengthen the Guardian program and the operation of that program in our region. We have experience with the program across Atlantic Canada. It does provide us with an excellent model of collaboration on the ground.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you for that, Mr. Wentzell. Appreciated. I did ask about whether the 2015 recommendations had been fully implemented and what were the specifics of how it was being addressed. Would you be able to share some of that information with us, please?
Mr. Wentzell: Senator, the program review we did on the Guardian program did suggest that we should create essentially a stand-alone Guardian program. There is early collaborative work under way now with regional Indigenous partners and with the conservation and protection program to pursue that recommendation.
Senator Kutcher: Would it be possible to get a report from you on the specifics of that?
Mr. Wentzell: Yes, we can certainly provide an update on our current status.
Senator Kutcher: That would be wonderful. Thank you so much for your time.
Senator Busson: Minister, you mentioned earlier in our discussions and while answering questions that there had been some training for your Conservation and Protection officers around cultural sensitivity and First Nations rights to fish. I’m wondering whether now, given the lack of progress in negotiation and clarity for the fishery, certainly for this season, would it be wise — it might be taking place as we speak — to have more training? Maybe I should phrase the question this way: Is there any focused training on de-escalation? Officers in Canada are called “enforcement officers,” but often “peace officers” is a better description of what we might hope happens in real-time negotiations and real-time situations when people are on the ground dealing with their rights to fish and their rights to be part of that industry. Thank you.
Ms. Jordan: Thank you, senator. I will turn to Tim on this one to speak to the de-escalation piece.
Mr. Sargent: There are two arms to negotiations. First is negotiation at the negotiation table where we have actually had considerable success, as the minister has said, both with Esgenoôpetitj and Elsipogtog, and Viger First Nation in 2019, and Restigouche more recently.
The other arm to negotiation is on the water as C&P officers go about their enforcement duties. A lot of what they are doing is interacting with folks and trying to ensure that tensions are reduced on the water so that they can enforce the Fisheries Act, which they are required to do.
Certainly, we do have training for our officers. Our officers are trained in those kinds of skills, as you will see with other peace officers, such as police officers, for instance. That is very much a part of their training, too.
Ms. Jordan: I would also say, senator, that the fisheries officers that we have, they know their communities. They know the people in them. They take a very measured approach when it comes to enforcing the Fisheries Act. Sometimes it might be just a matter of having a conversation with people. Sometimes it may be more than that. But they do understand their communities, and they also know their jobs and, of course, they are there to uphold the Fisheries Act.
Senator Busson: Thank you, minister. I think we agree that the enforcement piece is the last resort when the peace officer piece does not work.
Senator Ringuette: A quick question, minister: In our last few meetings, we have heard that there is a fishing season differential in regard to what our native community finds is the natural fishing season and what your department is promoting in regard to the fishing season. Is there any way there can be any reconciliation of the two?
Ms. Jordan: Thank you, senator. That’s a very good question.
One of the things we have done in order to try and make sure we understand where First Nations communities see their fishing season is that we now have the Lobster Science Partnership Roundtable, which is getting under way today. It brings a number of First Nation communities to the table to talk about science, their view of what a season looks like as well as what DFO’s seasons are.
With regard to a DFO season, one of the things we have to look at is when lobsters moult and breed. Those are really important to ensure the stock is sustainable for the long term.
We are having those conversations. It is extremely important that we take into account Indigenous knowledge. That is actually part of the Fisheries Act; it was put into the act in the last three years in the new modernization of the Fisheries Act.
I think these Lobster Science Partnership Roundtables will give us a chance to share with each other what the path forward looks like in terms of the science.
Senator Ringuette: Okay, thank you.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you very much, minister. We are very excited about the Lobster Science Partnership Roundtable, and we are very much looking forward to them. I thank you for taking that initiative.
One of the challenges is ensuring that Indigenous students are encouraged to get into the science of fisheries and oceans. Previous Prime Minister Paul Martin was very committed to higher education, and it would be really great if Fisheries and Oceans were able to signal such commitment. Are there any ideas or plans Fisheries and Oceans Canada has to encourage young Indigenous scientists to move into fisheries and oceans and become successful in that area?
Ms. Jordan: I’ve heard from a number of communities how important it is for young people to be involved in the fisheries, and we recognize that that does not necessarily mean they want to go out on a boat. They want to be part of the science or possibly be a part of a guardian program. Those are all ongoing conversations we have with First Nations communities.
With regard to any specific programs, I don’t know if Tim can add anything on that, but I know it’s something we have heard about a number of times for opportunities for communities. That must be part of the ongoing conversation.
Mr. Sargent: I can add to that. We’re very keen to have more Indigenous people come and work at Fisheries and Oceans, not just in science but particularly in conservation and protection. A really good way of doing that is to get people in as students. Get them working in the summer in science, in C&P and elsewhere.
We have an active program in the Maritimes regions. When I was there two years ago, I actually spoke to and met with a group of about 15 or so Indigenous students who were working at DFO over the summer. A number of them were doing science.
Senator Kutcher: That’s very encouraging to hear. Thank you, minister, for your understanding of the importance of this issue, and the deputy as well.
I would encourage Fisheries and Oceans to go beyond summer programming and to look at specific and innovative ways of encouraging young Indigenous people to actually get into the science of fisheries and oceans. Such ways might be getting a PhD, going into the Bedford Institute of Oceanology, Dalhousie University’s Ocean Sciences program or other marine sciences programs at other universities. That would actually go a long way to addressing structural racism issues here, and it would enhance the two-eyed-seeing approach that is so important as our science is evolving.
Mr. Sargent: We do, indeed, make active attempts to recruit Indigenous scientists. We participate in a career fair for Indigenous students, for instance, and we made a number of hires into our sciences area. We’re certainly active on that front.
Ms. Jordan: There are opportunities in the Coast Guard as well. It is another arm of DFO, but it’s extremely important that we have a Coast Guard as well as a DFO department that looks like Canada.
The Chair: Thank you.
One question if I may, minister: What species, other than American lobster, have DFO and First Nations discussed in the context of moderate livelihood fisheries?
Ms. Jordan: As you all are aware, moderate livelihood was not about lobster; it was about eel. It is about any species that First Nations want to talk about. Those are all ongoing conversations that we will have. There are First Nations communities that would love to have access to other species, and that has to be part of moderate livelihood. It’s not just about lobsters; it’s about all species.
The Chair: I think we have all of our questions for the minister. We have a moment or two, if anyone has a follow-up.
I want to thank you, minister and your officials, and I believe that we have had all our questions answered.
Ms. Jordan: Thank you all very much.
The Chair: Thank you. Take care.
Senators, do you have any questions for the officials who are here?
Senator Kutcher: My question is for Mr. Sargent. I wanted to continue the conversation and follow up on my earlier question of the evidence of effectiveness of your department’s interventions in addressing systemic racism. Thank you very much for sharing all the activity that DFO has initiated. We very much appreciate knowing that’s happening. Additional to that, however, is our interest in the outcomes of that activity. Could you share the data your department is collecting to determine if the interventions you are applying are having the impact you expect?
Mr. Sargent: I would need to know more about what particular impacts the senator is interested in. We collect a whole series of data on all kinds of things.
Senator Kutcher: Sure. Thank you for that. You’re right; I should be more specific.
One example is regarding attitudes and behaviours of staff within DFO related to Indigenous and racialized minorities. Is there any data you can share with us on how those attitudes or behaviours are changing as a result of the interventions you are putting in place?
Mr. Sargent: Those are not easy things to measure. It doesn’t mean they are not important, and it does not mean there are not quality ways to get at that. Quantitatively, though, it would be difficult to get at that kind of information. I’m not sure any federal department would have data of that kind.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you for that response. As someone who has spent a lifetime in measuring attitudes and behaviours, I would disagree with that. There are very robust ways of measuring that, and there are very robust ways of measuring changes in that. Perhaps you could discuss some of those approaches further with officials in your department.
My other question is on structural changes in DFO. Are there any specific structural changes that DFO is considering or is actually making to address racism within the structural components of DFO?
Mr. Sargent: In terms of advancing a reconciliation agenda, I would point to the Arctic region. That is one area where we have tried to change our organizational structure to better match the reality of Indigenous peoples in Canada and make sure we have a good match to the Inuit and other Northern First Nation peoples. I would note that the regional director general there is an Inuit person.
Senator Kutcher: That’s very encouraging to hear. Are similar changes being considered for the other coasts of Canada?
Mr. Sargent: In the other parts of Canada, generally speaking, there is a reasonably good match between our organizational structure and the needs of Indigenous people, but one of the changes we did make recently is in the Newfoundland and Labrador region. Each of our regions is subdivided further into the area, so we created a Labrador area specifically. Again, the head of that area is an Indigenous woman.
Senator Kutcher: Great. Just as a final question, has DFO made an internal structural analysis to determine whether its workforce — particularly its senior management levels — reflects the population that it serves?
Mr. Sargent: Yes, we certainly do, as do all federal departments. We gather information about the designated employment equity groups, and we monitor that over time at the various different levels of the organization, management level, scientists, all of that kind of thing.
Senator Kutcher: Great. Would you be able to share with us what changes have occurred in the equity-seeking groups in the last five or ten years so we would be able to see the effectiveness of those interventions?
Mr. Sargent: I’ll look to see what data we can provide.
Senator Kutcher: That is much appreciated. Thank you.
Senator Ravalia: My question is for Mr. Sargent as well. On March 31, 2021, the Federal Special Representative, Allister Surette, issued his final report on a moderate livelihood fishery. In his report, he indicated the inadequate communications, lack of transparency from all parties and the lack of dialogue as key issues contributing to the frustrations and tensions. His third recommendation was a dialogue forum to build trust and relationships.
I have a three-part question. What role is DFO playing or could play in facilitating dialogue to build trust between Indigenous and non-Indigenous fishers? Can you speak to any successful programs that you’ve seen to bridge the communication gap between these two groups? If so, how were the programs implemented? Finally, what steps will be taken by DFO to facilitate future discussions between Indigenous and non-Indigenous fishers on an ongoing basis to minimize tensions? Thank you.
Mr. Sargent: Thank you for the questions.
I certainly concur that facilitating those discussions between non-Indigenous and Indigenous peoples in the fishery — and frankly elsewhere — is very important. It’s key to being able to move forward. That’s why the lobster roundtable is such a significant event taking place later today. We were actually able to get Indigenous folks, our scientists, external scientists and industry representatives around the same table so they can share their views and perspectives and talk about how we need to move the lobster science discussion forward in order to make decisions about the fishery. I see that very much as the model.
Certainly it hasn’t always been easy to get folks around the same table. In some cases, as I think the minister made clear, when you’re having a nation-to-nation discussion, those are quite properly bilateral discussions between Canada and the First Nations or their representatives, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t other circumstances where we can try to get folks together. Certainly, as we manage the fishery on a day-to-day basis, we have many advisory tables where we have First Nations and non-First Nations around those tables as well.
Senator Christmas: I just want to go totally off topic here, Mr. Sargent. As you know, in the past, the Government of Canada has decentralized some of its major departments in different parts of the country. Here in the Maritimes, for instance, Veterans Affairs are located in Prince Edward Island, and there are other departments in different areas. I’ve often mused about the idea of Fisheries and Oceans moving its headquarters to an ocean. Here in Nova Scotia, for instance, DFO has some significant assets. You have the Bedford Institute of Oceanography and the Canadian Coast Guard College just a few kilometres, actually, from the Membertou First Nation. Has your department done an analysis of the pros and cons of moving its headquarters from Ottawa to the Maritimes and how that perhaps could make its operations far more efficient in its mandate?
Mr. Sargent: That’s an interesting question.
More than 75% of DFO’s employees are actually outside the National Capital Region, which is I believe the highest of any of the policy departments, the core government departments that I deal with. We are already very regional both on the DFO side and the Coast Guard side.
As I was alluding to earlier, even within the different regions on the DFO side, there are seven regions. There are area offices as well because often a lot of the action is not taking place in Halifax but instead is in Cape Breton and southwest Nova Scotia. Actually being in a relatively high population centre isn’t enough to be where the actual fishing is taking place.
The things that Fisheries and Oceans has to do involve coordinating with other departments. CIRNAC is a good example, but Transport Canada and Environment Canada and those departments and their deputies and senior management are by and large located in Ottawa. There is an NCR facing part of Fisheries and Oceans that I think is improved by having some folks in Ottawa.
Senator Busson: I’m not sure if this is more of a discussion piece than a question, but I’d like to ask Mr. Sargent and some of the other officials that seem to be more focused on the Indigenous affairs side of DFO. The minister mentioned that the Marshall affair is specific to the East Coast. I would suggest that Indigenous fishing rights exist everywhere in Canada. I agree with all of my colleagues that this year it’s disappointing that we are still in the midst of worrying about how the situation may or may not play out and the possibility of some real issues again this year, including a lot of animosity.
That situation does not seem to exist on the West Coast. I have a two-part question. What is happening or isn’t happening on the West Coast that seems to be happening on the East Coast to cause all of these issues? Are there lessons to be learned from what’s happening in our Pacific fishery, given the fact that I believe that Indigenous fishing rights are as alive there as they are on the East Coast? What’s the difference?
Mr. Sargent: That is another very interesting question. I’ll say a few things and then maybe turn over to Rob Lamirande, who is our chief negotiator and actually deals with the West Coast as well as the East Coast.
First we have to distinguish that under the Constitution there are Aboriginal rights and then there are treaty rights. Treaty rights, as the name suggests, come from specific treaties, and in this case, the various treaties signed between the Mi’kmaq peoples and the then British government in 1760-61. There are specific rights that pertain to that. There are generally across Canada Aboriginal rights. A good example would be the right to food, social and ceremonial, for instance. Those rights were clarified as part of the Sparrow decision in 1990. Those apply to the West Coast and East Coast and wherever Indigenous people are. The way we apply that is relatively uniform across the country.
As to why we’re seeing more issues on the East Coast, there actually are tensions on the West Coast between Indigenous and non-Indigenous fishers. I wouldn’t say it’s so different. Whenever you have a resource in finite supply, you often get tensions over how that resource is distributed. That said, I think we have made progress on the West Coast in the last couple of years with various of the West Coast nations.
I’ll turn to Robert Lamirande, our chief negotiator, to talk about that.
Robert Lamirande, Special Advisor, Indigenous Affairs, Fisheries and Oceans Canada: Thank you.
That’s a very good question, Senator Busson. As Deputy Minister Sargent indicated, there are a number of negotiations that are ongoing currently in British Columbia. We’re actively negotiating with the five nations on the West Coast of Vancouver Island related to the Ahousaht decision. Those negotiations are ongoing toward the implementation of that Aboriginal right to fish for the purpose of sale. We have active negotiations with the Haida and with Coastal First Nations — eight First Nations along the Central and North Coast of British Columbia — and A-Tlegay First Nations on the East Coast of Vancouver Island and Musqueam.
I think those discussions largely focus on very similar issues, as the deputy described, to the East Coast. It’s access to fisheries for commercial purposes — for sale. Food, social and ceremonial fisheries are obviously prominent subjects of negotiations and discussions, as well as collaborative governance and management arrangements around fisheries. As well, oceans management has been a prominent area of negotiation with West Coast groups.
The department is actively involved in multiple, concurrent negotiations in partnership with our CIRNAC colleagues.
Senator Busson: Thank you.
The Chair: I’m not seeing any hands raised, so I’m believing that we have exhausted our questions. I’d like to thank our witnesses for their appearance this morning, the minister for her time and the senators for a very engaging conversation.
We will let you know where we go from here. The clock is ticking on our time in the chamber. Senator Ringuette, maybe you can answer some questions. Go ahead.
Senator Ringuette: I don’t want to answer a question, but I want to make a suggestion. Because of the work that we’ve done, the witnesses we’ve heard from so far and the possibility that Parliament might be prorogued by the time we return in the fall, is it possible to maybe table an interim report of what we’ve done so far?
The Chair: I’m not sure, Senator Ringuette. We had discussed that earlier. Time is of the essence here now, as you understand. We may be closing next week. That will be our last week for sure. I’m not privy to any information otherwise. However, even if it’s next week, I’m not sure we’d be in a position because of the time. We may not get to have a meeting next week. We could be bumped out due to government business being a priority. It’s something we can discuss. I won’t rule it out.
I was going to suggest, in the absence of that, maybe Daniele could prepare for committee members an internal report on information we have received thus far just to give us a kind of a summary. As Senator Ringuette just touched on, it may be some time before we reconvene as a committee to follow up on this. Our memories are not as sharp as they were 25 years ago, so maybe we need to keep updated. Maybe you can provide us with a summary of what we have heard so far and share that with members so everybody at least has something at their fingertips when we reconvene.
Senator Ringuette, we’ll take your suggestion under advisement, as we say when we’re in the chair, and get back to you.
Senator Kutcher, I think you may have a question or comment.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you for recognizing me. If there are questions such as Senator Ringuette raised, it may be best to go in camera and not subject our witnesses, who have been so kind and helpful to us today, to these internal discussion.
The Chair: That sounds good. Vincent, if you can arrange that, then we’ll just have a conversation among ourselves. I appreciate the suggestion, Senator Kutcher. I should have thought of that earlier.
(The committee continued in camera.)