THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON INDIGENOUS PEOPLES
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Tuesday, December 12, 2023
The Standing Senate Committee on Indigenous Peoples met with videoconference this day at 9:30 a.m. [ET], in camera, to examine the federal government’s constitutional, treaty, political and legal responsibilities to First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples and any other subject concerning Indigenous Peoples.
Senator Brian Francis (Chair) in the chair.
(The committee continued in camera.)
(The committee resumed in public.)
The Chair: Honourable senators, I would begin by acknowledging that the land on which we gather is on the traditional, ancestral and unceded territory of the Algonquin Nation and is now home to many other First Nations, Métis and Inuit peoples from across Turtle Island.
I am Mi’kmaw Senator Brian Francis from Epekwitk, also known as Prince Edward Island, and I am the chair of the Committee on Indigenous Peoples. I will now ask committee members to introduce themselves by stating their name and province or territory.
Senator Arnot: I am Senator David Arnot from Saskatchewan. I live in Treaty 6 territory.
Senator Hartling: Good morning. Senator Nancy Hartling from New Brunswick from the unceded territory of the Mi’kmaq people.
Senator McNair: Good morning. I’m Senator John McNair. I’m from New Brunswick also, Nouveau Brunswick.
Senator Sorensen: Karen Sorensen, Alberta, Banff National Park, Treaty 7 territory.
Senator Prosper: Senator P. J. Prosper from Nova Scotia, the land of the Mi’kmaq people.
Senator White: Judy White, proud Mi’kmaw from Ktaqmkuk, better known as the province of Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Coyle: Mary Coyle, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Mi’kma’ki.
[Translation]
Senator Audette: Good morning, [Innu-aimun spoken], Michèle Audette, De Salaberry senatorial division, Québec.
[English]
The Chair: Senators, today we are continuing a series of briefings meant to inform and guide the future work of this committee. Before I proceed, I want to note that the content of this meeting relates to Indian residential schools, which some may find distressing. There is support available for anyone requiring assistance at all times free of charge via the National Indian Residential School Crisis Line at 1-866-925-4419 and at Hope for Wellness Helpline at 1-800-721-0066 or at www.hopeforwellness.ca.
I want to give you some background about today. You may recall that, last March, the Standing Senate Committee on Indigenous Peoples heard from the NCTR, the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation and the Office of the Independent Special Interlocutor for Missing Children and Unmarked Graves and Burial Sites associated with Indian Residential Schools regarding their respective work honouring, amplifying and uncovering the truth about the residential school system and its painful and lasting impact.
Based on this testimony, on July 19, the Committee on Indigenous Peoples issued an interim report entitled Honouring the Children Who Never Came Home: Truth, Education and Reconciliation. One of the recommendations made in that interim report included a commitment to hold public hearings with governments, churches and others who continue to withhold records about residential schools and associated sites.
During today’s meeting, we will hear from the following witnesses: from the Sisters of Charity — Halifax, Mary Flynn, Congregational Archivist and Sister Donna Geernaert, Former Congregational Leader. Wela’lin and thank you both for joining us today.
The witnesses will provide opening remarks of approximately five minutes, which will be followed by a question-and-answer session with the senators. I now invite Mary Flynn and Sister Donna Geernaert to give their opening remarks.
Mary Flynn, Congregational Archivist, Sisters of Charity — Halifax: Good morning. Thank you to the members of the committee for the invitation to appear.
We’re speaking to you from Halifax, Nova Scotia, Mi’kma’ki. I wanted to share a bit about the Sisters’ involvement in residential schools and the actions the congregation has taken to support the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation.
From 1930 until 1967, the Sisters of Charity staffed Shubenacadie Residential School here in Nova Scotia and served as teachers and domestic workers. In 2015, the Congressional Leadership Team, in collaboration with Sister Donna, approved the release of all our records relating to residential schools, so I began to scan them.
In total, there are about seven linear centimetres of textual documents and about 40 photographs related to Shubenacadie Residential School in our archives. These records include an information book of important dates and the mission list of sisters, annals from the convent, correspondence and photographs. The records were created by the sisters missioned at the convent, and while they’re not official school records, they include references to the school and its students.
In May 2015 and October 2016, the scanned documents were sent to the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation in Winnipeg, Manitoba. The records were sent in full and without any privacy restrictions.
In December 2018, I sent a spreadsheet of references from our annals to the NCTR to support their work to create a memorial register, as well as to help identify where students who died while attending the school might have been buried.
The records from the Sisters of Charity — Halifax Congregational Archives were made publicly available on the NCTR website in September 2021.
I welcome any questions that the committee might have regarding the records in our archives. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Flynn.
Sister Donna Geernaert, Former Congregational Leader, Sisters of Charity — Halifax: Good morning, everyone. I served as congregational leader from 2002 to 2014 with the Sisters of Charity — Halifax.
I was a member of the Corporation of Catholic Entities Party to the Indian Residential School Settlement and was involved in the negotiations that led to the Indian Residential School Settlement Agreement, or IRSSA. During and after my time in leadership, I have been committed to ensuring our congregation’s compliance with the terms of the agreement in support of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, or TRC’s, Calls to Action. In this context, I’m grateful for the opportunity to meet with you today to come to a clearer understanding about any archival documentation you think we may have failed to forward to the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation, or NCTR. I am not a professional archivist, so I will leave those details to Mary Flynn. I would, however, like to identify some of the steps that we, Sisters of Charity — Halifax, have taken in response to IRSSA and the TRC.
I, and several other members of the congregation, participated in the TRC hearings in Halifax, Edmonton and Vancouver as well as the closing events in Ottawa. In Halifax, I was invited to speak at a circle of reconciliation, where I expressed deep sadness evoked by hearing the survivors’ stories, recognized the schools as part of the system that was racist and oppressive and highlighted the importance of working together on common projects. In Vancouver, I was part of a group who addressed a reconciliation circle on behalf of women religious offering an apology and making a commitment to support Indigenous efforts to achieve justice within Canada.
In 2018, a special panel acknowledging our involvement in the Residential Schools at Shubenacadie and Cranbrook was added to the Heritage Garden at Caritas Residence. In addition, I’m a member of the Our Lady of Guadeloupe Circle, which enables me to participate with representatives of other IRSSA signatories in all-parties meetings, where we monitor implementation of the TRC Calls to Action. The congregation has provided grants, bursaries and scholarships [Technical difficulties], Unama’ki College at Cape Breton University, the Women Rising Bursary with Resist Exploitation Embrace Dignity, or REED, Vancouver, and Sacred Heart School of Halifax. We have contributed financially to the development of the Mi’kmawey Debert Cultural Centre in Nova Scotia and the First Nations Health Authority in B.C.
Working with others, many sisters have promoted, participated in and, at times, facilitated the blanket exercise. Through KAIROS, sisters have helped support the report on Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, participated in efforts to promote the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, or UNDRIP, and worked towards the revision of the provincial elementary school curriculum here in Nova Scotia.
Through Share, sisters have worked with investment holders to create yearly directions related to fair work and training for Indigenous people. In collaboration with others, sisters have supported fracking projects in New Brunswick as well as protests and court hearings to protect the Shubenacadie River against a plan to store salt in caves, which endangers Mi’kmaq fisheries, and have helped to provide supplies and support to Mi’kmaq in the Nova Scotia lobster dispute.
I hope this summary of the variety of activities we Sisters of Charity have undertaken may be seen as a brief illustration of our ongoing commitment to the TRC Calls to Action and the Indigenous peoples of Canada.
Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, Sister Geernaert.
We will now open the floor to questions from senators.
Senator Arnot: Thank you for coming today, witnesses. We appreciate your testimony here.
I would like to ask Mary Flynn a question, just so I completely understand what you said. You said that you had a linear measurement. What was that measurement? I heard seven centimetres. That can’t be right.
Ms. Flynn: It is seven centimetres. It is just a few volumes, so not very much. It did not fill a box or anything like that. It was just a few folders of information. We are not talking about metres and metres like some of the other entities have shared. There is very little.
Senator Arnot: What is your explanation for such a small amount of documents? Was there any screening done? Did you hold back any records in any way? How is it that you have such a small measurement or small number of documents, obviously?
Ms. Flynn: That would be very typical for a school where sisters taught at but did not own. I have seen that for other convents in New York or Nova Scotia. If the sisters taught at a school, we mostly have records relating to the convent; whereas, if the sisters owned a school, such as Mount Saint Vincent Academy, then we have student records and more administration records. But where they were teachers and domestic workers, we do not have things that would be at the level of student records, student registers or anything from principals, because the sisters did not have that role in the schools.
Senator Arnot: Where are those records, the actual detailed school records? If they are not in your possession, where are they? Do you know?
Ms. Flynn: I would suggest talking to Library and Archives Canada. Also, the Archdiocese of Halifax-Yarmouth was involved in the school starting in 1930, and then the Oblates, starting in, I believe, 1956. Those would be the three repositories that I would recommend contacting.
Senator Arnot: Sister Geernaert, you seem to be a champion for reconciliation. You have been involved in a lot of things that respect Indigenous people and are promoting reconciliation. Is there anything else you would like us to know about what you have done or what you have seen the Sisters of Charity — Halifax do?
Sister Geernaert: Actually, I had to synthesize and summarize because of the time limits. We have some information on our Sisters of Charity — Halifax website for the one hundred and seventy-fifth anniversary. If you go down to Week 6, you will find some information there about more of the activities that we have been involved in.
We have been really interested in education, so some of our members have purchased a number of books by Indigenous women or Indigenous people and distributed them widely to our members. We feel education is one of the things that is really important.
The other thing we participated in is providing financing for a couple of women who were working on projects, one on decolonizing water, looking at Indigenous approaches to water safety, and then one here in Nova Scotia, a woman recalling her experience at residential school. It was a book published called Fatty Legs: A True Story, and it was really quite a good story about how she stood up for herself.
Those are some of the things that we have done. A number of sisters are also very quick to make connections with their Indigenous brothers and sisters. We have a couple of sisters who are learning Indigenous languages. I think that is a wonderful idea.
Senator Arnot: Thank you.
The Chair: I have a question for either or both of you. Were there other files, such as personnel files, retained by the Sisters of Charity? Have you communicated further with the NCTR, as they have identified that Sisters of Charity still have holdings related to the Shubenacadie school?
Ms. Flynn: I haven’t been in contact with the NCTR regarding what records they have identified as us withholding. I am not clear on that. I was kind of surprised when we got the call to appear, because I was not even aware of the report, but if they are interested in things like personnel files, then we can be in contact. In our information book that is on the NCTR website, there is a list of all of the sisters who served there, so that kind of information was public from the start, from the 1930s. It depends on what else they are looking for and what would be helpful in this. That is something, I suppose, I should contact them and have a conversation with them about.
Sister Geernaert: One of the things I did note is that of the sisters who served at Shubenacadie, only one is still alive. She was a teacher of Grade 4 and 5 from 1963-67. She is currently living in a retirement centre in Wellesley and is suffering from dementia.
The Chair: Thank you for that.
Back to my supplementary, you will follow up with the NCTR? Thank you.
Senator White: My question is a follow-up from Senator Arnot’s, and it is for Sister Geernaert. In your opening, you were saying that you helped and contributed with a number of Indigenous groups. I am curious about the First Nations Health Authority, the FNHA. They are the first of its kind provincial authority out of B.C., and well renowned in the country from an Indigenous health perspective. I would like to know what your contribution to that particular organization was and how you worked with it to get it to where it is today.
Sister Geernaert: I am not quite sure who made the initial contact. We did contribute $10,000 to a water purification project. That is what I know at this point in time. As a congregation, we have a policy statement about water, so, consequently, would certainly be willing to do other things on water if we were to get a request.
Senator White: So to clarify, you provided funding or money to this group?
Sister Geernaert: Yes, we did.
Senator White: But not work in developing the organization.
Sister Geernaert: No. We were not a part of that.
Senator White: Thank you.
Senator Sorensen: A couple of my questions have been answered, but for clarity, Ms. Flynn, based upon information that we just heard, I was going to ask, as I’ve asked others, if there was any living staff members from Shubenacadie who may be able to answer questions. I understand that situation from Sister Geernaert. I’m just confirming that there is no one else, administrators or anyone else, who would still be able to give living information.
The second part of my question is that you said that the records were sent in 2021. I have a note here. I am curious about this, and I will ask you to speak for yourself and, perhaps, for others. It is noted that author Chris Benjamin asked for archival information in 2021 with respect to a book he was writing, Legacies of the Shubenacadie Residential School, and he was denied access. When media or an author asks for information that has been sent to the appropriate place, is it normal to refuse that? Is there a reason to refuse that? That question is for Ms. Flynn.
Ms. Flynn: Thank you.
To answer your first question, the records were first submitted in 2015 and 2016. They were then put online on the NCTR website in 2021, so now they are available.
If I recall correctly, Mr. Benjamin’s book had predated when I started working for the sisters, so I am not clear on all of the details relating to that because I did not handle it, if it is the book that I am thinking of. Our congregational leader handles all requests relating to residential schools in our communications. I could follow up with them, if that would be helpful.
Senator Sorensen: I am not sure that is necessary. It was more of a generic question for discussion here. If the records are somewhere else, who are they available to? I guess it is online at some point. I just found that story interesting.
Sister Geernaert, you may have just answered this question through Senator White, but I have a note that the organization that you co-chaired was the Moving Forward Together Campaign, fund-raising for healing and educational programs. Can you tell us how much the Sisters of Charity — Halifax raised for this initiative and how those funds were used? That might have been the extent of the answer when you said $10,000 towards a water project.
Sister Geernaert: That is a different question. The Moving Forward Together Campaign was part of the settlement agreement. The entities party to the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement, that corporation was formed of all Catholic organizations that had participated, many religious congregations of women, the oblates and a few dioceses. The reason the corporation was formed was to participate in the negotiations for the settlement agreement.
Part of the terms of the agreement was a cash contribution, straight out, and then there was an in-kind contribution, which was assessed by a committee headed by Indigenous peoples. Then there was what was called the “best efforts” campaign. That was a campaign that was set in place to raise $25 million. This may be more information than you want. Tell me if I’m saying too much. It had three parts. There was a public part that was to raise $15 million. There was another part that was to raise $6 million, and that was a local campaign. Then there was a part to raise $4 million from religious organizations.
I co-chaired that committee to raise funding from the religious organizations. In that campaign, we were assessed $4 million [Technical difficulties] which was not what we had hoped for, but it was what we could do. Unfortunately, the public campaign did not raise any money, and neither did the local campaign. That meant the Moving Forward Together Campaign did not reach its $25 million; it was a “best efforts” campaign. It was accepted as best efforts.
Does that help?
Senator Sorensen: Where did those funds end up going? It cut off a bit and I did not hear the total raised, but where did those funds go?
Sister Geernaert: The funds that were raised were sent to the Aboriginal Healing Foundation.
Senator Sorensen: Thank you.
Senator Coyle: Thank you to our two witnesses today.
I am curious as to whether any of the school records or records related to the sisters who worked at the school were lost in the fire that burned down the original Mount Saint Vincent Motherhouse.
Ms. Flynn: Yes, undoubtedly. The Motherhouse burned down in 1951, and anything related to the opening of the schools was lost and not recovered. Unfortunately, that is a reality of the archives.
Senator Coyle: I understand that there were two sisters who were assigned the responsibility of reconstructing some of the documents that had been lost in the fire. I am not sure how that happens. Do you know if they were able to reconstruct any of the documents relating to the sisters who were involved in the Shubenacadie school?
Ms. Flynn: A few sisters helped, and they were very successful in reconstructing biographical records about the sisters, basic information such as birth and death dates and where they were missioned. In that sense, it was successful in that we would have basic information about the sisters who served at the school in the early years, because, undoubtedly, there is someone who had passed away before 1951. That information was lost. There wasn’t anything related to the school itself, such as student records or things like that. That would be, perhaps, what we’re calling personnel files, lists of who was there and where they served.
The Chair: Could you please describe how the Sisters of Charity are contributing to any efforts by Indigenous communities to do research related to missing children and unmarked graves?
Sister Geernaert: Mary, you did some work on that.
Ms. Flynn: Yes. A few years after I had submitted the scans of all of our records to the NCTR, I had seen in the news that the staff at the NCTR were trying to create a memorial register of the students who had passed away, as well as identifying where children who died there were buried. This was a few years before unmarked graves were in the news. I went through the annals that we had and made a spreadsheet of every reference of — I’m sorry, this is quite sensitive — a child dying or having been sick. We know that there were epidemics of different diseases. And in the references, if they did die, what happened to them? Were they sent home to their home community? Things like that.
I had contacted the NCTR and asked, “Would you be interested in this? Is this helpful? You have the records, but I have the time so I can do this.” I did go through and did that for Shubenacadie as well as for St. Eugene’s in Cranbrook, where the sisters also served as teachers and domestic workers. I had sent that in. I believe that helped with the memorial pages that are on the NCTR website that lists the children. I had sent it in with the caveat that it is just, in my opinion, a sliver of what possibly happened there. I think we know that there are more children who were sick and died than we perhaps have records for in our archives, but it was something that was aiding that work.
Senator Prosper: Thank you to you both, Sister Geernaert and Ms. Flynn, for outlining your efforts in terms of providing information and working towards the advancement of reconciliation. I certainly appreciated listening to your efforts.
My question gets to the nature of the information you provided earlier in response to a question from Senator Arnot. You got into the nature of the documentation giving the seven centimetres of information that you provided in scanned copies. You also made reference to photos. I am curious as to the nature of those photos. How did you discern what kind of information was provided? Thank you.
Ms. Flynn: Thank you. The photographs are online. You can see them. They are mostly of children, and sometimes of the sisters who worked there. We provided whatever information we had, which, unfortunately, if you look on the website, is not much. There are times when we are not even sure what year it is from or what decade it is from. We can sometimes judge from a sister’s habit what year it might have been. There is a lot of information that is lacking, like names. There are hardly any names of sisters or children. Sometimes the priest or the principal is identified. It is a huge access struggle in that we cannot even pinpoint a decade at some points. There are not a lot of photographs, but we did send whatever we had. Hopefully, survivors and their family members can try to identify their loved ones in the photographs, because that is not something that we are able to do. I can’t even identify some of the older sisters in the photographs because the living sisters do not know people from 1930. That is a big challenge for access.
Sister Geernaert: At the reconciliation hearing here in Halifax, one thing that we did was, down on the bottom floor, we posted pictures. A number of the former students, the survivors, were down there gathering and reminiscing about the pictures. Some of those people would have a better idea of who was there.
Senator Prosper: Thank you.
Senator Hartling: Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
I have to say that this is a very disturbing topic. I grew up not far from Shubenacadie, but we did not know anything about this. It was not even talked about. It is unfortunate that it was kept very secret. I am glad to see that we are getting some records. I listened to a video yesterday of some survivors. Their stories are very touching.
I wonder if you could tell me how many children were there during that time from 1930 to the time of the closure in 1967. Do we know if some of them are still living? Were there other things found? Some of the residents mentioned the fact that they had brought dolls and things. Were any other items found, or clothing? What kind of compensation have these survivors received? Could you give me a summary of some of those things, please?
Ms. Flynn: I am afraid that I cannot really answer any of those questions. I don’t know if the NCTR would be able to speak to the question of the number of children who attended. I know it was not just from Nova Scotia. There were children from all over the Maritimes, Atlantic Canada, and I think Quebec as well. I am not sure how many are living. We do not have any artifacts related to Shubenacadie, and I cannot speak to the compensation. I am sorry.
Sister Geernaert: I know that initially there may have been 50 or 60 children, but by the time the school closed, again, I saw the number 137 in a class, but that does not tell you how many were there over the whole period of time. I’m sorry.
Senator Hartling: Okay. Are you saying that we could get that from TRC, or are there other places that we may be able to find that information?
Ms. Flynn: The first resource that I thought of was the historical narrative that was created by the government and is on the NCTR website. It provides a snapshot of the important dates for the school, who was running it and different things regarding that. There may be some statistics there. I used it as a resource myself to get a better understanding of the history because, as I said, we just have a snapshot that is based on the convent with references to the school. I need a better, broader understanding, and that is the resource that I go to.
Senator Hartling: Thank you.
The Chair: The floor is still open for any further questions, if any senators have any follow-up questions. I see no further questions, so the time for this panel is complete.
I would like to thank all of our witnesses for joining us today. If you wish to make any subsequent submissions, please submit them by email to our clerk within seven days. That brings us to the end of our meeting today.
(The committee adjourned.)