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Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Social Affairs, Science and Technology

Issue 4 - Evidence


OTTAWA, Wednesday, March 10, 2004

The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, to which was referred Bill C-8, to establish the Library and Archives of Canada, to amend the Copyright Act and to amend certain acts in consequence, met this day at 4:10 p.m. to give consideration to the bill.

[English]

Mr. Daniel Charbonneau, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, it is my duty to inform you that the chair and deputy chair are unavoidably absent, so we will proceed to the election of an acting chair.

Senator Cordy: I move that Honourable Senator Morin act as chair for these proceedings.

Mr. Charbonneau: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

Mr. Charbonneau: Carried.

Senator Yves Morin (Acting Chairman) in the chair.

The Acting Chairman: Thank you very much and I welcome here Senator LaPierre, the sponsor of the bill.

We will be studying Bill C-8, an act to establish the Library and Archives of Canada. We have a number of witnesses.

[Translation]

Our first witness is Mr. Roch Carrier, National Librarian of Canada. Welcome, Mr. Carrier.

Mr. Roch Carrier, National Librarian of Canada, National Library of Canada: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We are here because we hope to see this bill passed as quickly as possible. I will attempt to explain why it is an exciting and interesting bill.

[English]

This project was not imposed by a single body. It is our joint vision for the future. We believe that a single institution — Library and Archives of Canada — will contribute significantly to the economic, social, and cultural advancement of Canada as a free, democratic and learning society.

[Translation]

The object is to create a new kind of knowledge institution. This is more than just the bringing together of two organizations: with the riches of the two institutions, our aim is to create a new one, greater than the sum of its parts.

[English]

We want to create a source of enduring knowledge accessible to all.

[Translation]

Here is the how and the why of how we came to this bill.

[English]

First technology makes possible today, things that were not possible only 10 years ago. In a digital world, the traditional distinction between a library and an archive and what they collect no longer makes sense.

[Translation]

Clients — such as students and schools, for instance — attach no importance to the form information takes, be it recorded on plastic, paper, celluloid or other forms.

[English]

What they need is information. We have also a wonderful challenge. We are in a life long learning. This brings a new variety of clients. We are not serving only the official researchers from university. Now, that information is at the tip of the fingers, we have to provide valuable information to every citizen.

We have a great richness. We have, all across Canada, a network of three hundred federal libraries and 21,000 libraries that are all connected. They need content and we can provide them with it when they need it. Finally, technology provides a simplified access for Canadians. With different technical means that are now available, people want quick, fast, easy answers, even when the question is complicated. We will be working to provide services to Canadians in the way they need it.

[Translation]

The new institution will bring together all forms of information, much of it unique and unavailable elsewhere and primarily focused on Canada; it will come from the various collections of the Library and of the Archives. Our keynotes are: ``information management'' and access.

[English]

The two organizations will bring a synergy of skills to acquire, preserve and make known the documentary heritage of Canada. In creating a single institution our goal is to make better use of our resources and expertise. Honourable senators, the Auditor General reported that the government must act now so that important parts of Canada's cultural heritage are not lost for future generations.

This is a considerable challenge that will require significant investment. As a single institution, the Library and Archives Canada will be able to create efficiency in the preservation of the vast collection by putting in place an effective risk-management framework.

[Translation]

To summarize, Bill C-8 will provide a solid foundation for a modern knowledge institution which will benefit all Canadians.

[English]

We ask for prompt passage of Bill C-8. Since the announcement in the Speech from the Throne in the fall of 2002, we have been working increasingly as a single institution, with a common initiative, planning and management team. We cannot proceed much further with this integration without the legal framework creating a single institution.

Many others around the world share this view, as they watch with great interest the advances being made by Canada. Last week, Dr. Robert Martin, Director of the Institute of Museum and Library Services in the U.S., the primary source of federal funding for making museum archives and libraries, congratulated the vision and foresight of Canada by saying, ``I believe that you are blazing a path that all of us in the cultural heritage field around the world will ultimately follow.''

Mr. Ian E. Wilson, National Archivist of Canada, National Archives of Canada: I join with my colleague Mr. Carrier in strongly supporting this initiative. It has very much developed jointly between the library and the archives, two noted and venerable institutions.

We are also realistic because just this bill will not solve all of our problems and challenges. However, it will enable us to bring together some extraordinary collections — most of which are unique — and some marvellous expertise with new synergy and momentum to address our common challenges.

We can coordinate acquisitions across the different media and forms of documentary material and with our other institutions across the country, to ensure there are comprehensive national strategies for documenting the full complexity and diversity of the Canadian experience and of our creativity. We can integrate preservation and make best use of our specialized facilities. We can integrate reference and access to develop common windows designed to reach out and open our collections to all Canadians.

We have only begun to explore the real potential and possibilities of the Web. The Web is searching for content; we have some extraordinary content in our collections.

As we go further on-line and increase use, it is becoming clear it leads to increased demand for access, and for Canadians to see the originals of our constitutional documents, our treaties and our portraits — we are also developing the Portrait Gallery of Canada — to develop exhibitions here, across the country, overseas and in our embassies to show off the original documentary material relating to this country.

[Translation]

Clearly, we do not want to work in isolation. Library and Archives Canada envisions a key role to be played by partners, the network of libraries and archives across Canada, to deliver the promise of true access to the entire documentary heritage of Canada.

We are happy to see in Bill C-8 a specific mandate to support the development of libraries and archival communities.

[English]

Just over 25 years ago, Dr. Tom Symons did a report on Canadian studies that emphasized the role of libraries and archives as the basis of Canadian studies and entitled that report ``To Know Ourselves.'' That is what we are all about: to know ourselves, to know the basis of our society, the society we have inherited, our creativity and our possibilities for the future. While Dr. Symons addressed himself to a university audience, we now think it possible to reach out and bring this type of material to all Canadians.

We believe we have a contribution to make to the creation of a culture of life-long learning and exploration, and to a successful knowledge society in this country. We are beginning to explore possibilities from the school curriculum — not just history, but in Canadian literature, in geography, in Canadian studies, in book clubs, in history fairs, in literacy programs and programs for the print disabled, and for those who are enthusiastic about family history. There are many uses to which our collections can be put.

This is the vision we have of this great new institution and what is captured in the bill before you. We have consulted widely on our idea of bringing together the National Library and the National Archives. We have found broad support and enthusiasm for the idea.

We have heard that our communities expect a continuation of our current mandate and services, and we have also heard calls that this institution should play an increased leadership role.

In brief, the creation of Library and Archives Canada is more than just bringing together the National Archives and the National Library. It is a profound transformation in which we are engaging all staff to look at commonalities rather than differences, and to look at the expectations of Canadians and listen to those.

We are striving for the creation of a new kind of knowledge institution, working in full collaboration with a network of archives and libraries across the country and with other cultural and knowledge organizations to ensure that the Canadian experience is preserved. By taking advantage of networks, partnerships and new technologies, we seek to provide Canadians with easy access to their documentary heritage, regardless of where they are.

I think it is a compelling vision. We have heard that in our consultations, and I do know librarians, archivists and others in our professions look forward to making it a reality in the years ahead.

Senator Fairbairn: Thank you both very much.

I have to confess that when discussions of this union between the two institutions first arose, I had concerns and doubts that one would override the other, or that it would not work. Then, as I got to know the two gentlemen who are beginning this adventure and understand it better, I concluded that this could be an exciting project, and one that would benefit a great deal from what each has to offer.

There have been copyright concerns about delays in publication — that although access to materials may be easily available, publication, particularly of unpublished works of deceased authors, might in some way be held up and prevent both historians and individuals interested across the country from being able to access them.

Could explain exactly what the concerns are, and what your response to them is?

Mr. Carrier: Well, this is a big question. Having had some time with the Canada Council, I understand it is never easy to discuss the matter of copyright and rights that the author has or should have or does not have. For me, it is very difficult to discuss that matter.

I believe in access. However, I also believe that writers, producers of text, are never rich in Canada. I believe they have a strong right to live off their work, like any other profession. That is why it is very difficult to discuss the matter in a context that is not the old context of copyright.

In a discussion concerning the future of a great new institution, I feel very uneasy discussion something for which we are not responsible. We would like to have some clear indication that this is the law and we would follow the law.

Honestly, I would have preferred not to see that text in the act of the Library and Archives of Canada.

Mr. Wilson: I will add that both institutions are accustomed to dealing with provisions of copyright, privacy, and access to information legislation. Different parts of our collection are affected in different ways; much of it comprises 17th, 18th, and 19th century materials that are long out of copyright.

It is a complication, but as long as the law is clear and established, we will administer it. In terms of access, there is a fair-dealing provision in the copyright legislation that enables access for research and private study. Those are provisions that libraries and archives have traditionally used.

Mr. Carrier: We take great caution in doing all the necessary research to determine whether a piece of a photograph or text is free of encumbrance under copyright law. Regularly, every day, we identify the author of any given piece to make that determination. There is a great deal of experience within the institution in finding the authors and informing them of their rights under copyright law. That is the culture of the organization.

Senator Fairbairn: I understand. The combination of the two institutions shows tremendous promise in the area in which our chair indicated that I was interested. I know that both of you have been quite innovative in responding to an enormous national need — the promotion of reading and informing every part of our society, particularly young people and learners, about what is available to them through these institutions.

The National Library has benefited enormously in recent years from new technology and the access across the country that we would not have dreamt possible before. You said that 21,000 libraries are in need of content and that the new technology provides them with the ability to plug into the National Library for that content.

Could you share with us any innovative plans that you may have to bring the library and learning community closer to this wonderful collection of opportunity that we have in the two institutions that will now become one?

Mr. Carrier: If we were to observe tradition, we would not be talking about the future. Rather, we would be in our offices fighting for our turf. That is no longer the way.

I believe that one of the most beautiful experiences we have, which happens once a week, is our ``Breakfast for Change.'' We bring people from both institutions together, from different professional areas, to talk and prepare for the future. Allow me to give you and example of the future: You are in your office and you have a question. You enter this question into your computer, which is attached to a network across Canada and perhaps to the U.K. and Australia and so on. The question goes to the place best set up to provide the answer, which will come back through your computer that same day. Your question will also go into a database in case someone else asks the same question. That is one example.

[Translation]

Mr. Wilson: We can quote several other examples. Recently, with French archives, we digitized all of the administrative documents concerning New France; 600,000 digitized images were prepared in two years, with a website allowing us to research the details of the administration of New France. We do not only provide access to documents to students and professors, but also the possibility of reconstructing and reconstituting the heritage of a nation. The documentary heritage of New France was dispersed in 1763 and we can now reconstitute it with the help of several libraries and archives in Canada, the United States and France.

[English]

It is just magic. Recently teachers from across Canada came to our preservation centre in Gatineau. These were some of the best history teachers in the country and were patrons of the Governor General's award for the teaching of history. It was as though they had discovered the candy store: Here are the images and icons of Canada; here are the treaties and the constitutional documents; here are the papers of Sir John A.; here are the literary papers of the noted authors of this country; here is the Canadian music collection.

We are working with them now to determine how we can get those resources out across the country. The technology is finally enabling us to do just that. I have been an archivist for many years and have been frustrated because I know the magic and the power of what we have in our collections and it has not been possible because they are fragile, unique and irreplaceable, and we have to protect them. However, new technology is freeing us from that barrier because we can put films of our content on-line, such as census records and Mackenzie King's diary. These are marvellous materials. I could continue for hours.

Mr. Carrier: We know how involved you are in promoting literacy. The state of libraries in schools all over Canada is very poor. However, all those schools have computers. The library and archives can provide them with some content for their courses. We have wonderful programs such as ``The Kids' Site of Canadian Trains,'' and ``Confederation for Kids'' and ``Explorers for Kids.'' Should I also mention our program on hockey for kids? We possess the many ways of telling the Canadian experience and history.

Senator Fairbairn: I know that there have been some concerns, but I think the benefits of this merger will be enormous. To the credit of government and the support of Parliament, we became the first country to hook up all of our schools and libraries across Canada for children. I do not think Canadians realize what an enormous advantage this is in terms of teaching, learning and creating a love for books and knowledge. Mr. Chairman, in respect of this bill, I cannot think of two finer proponents of learning than Mr. Wilson and Mr. Carrier.

Senator Callbeck: You mentioned about providing programs to schools. I want to understand the relationship between the provincial library or archives and the national library or archives. Would a school on Prince Edward Island contact the National Library or would they contact their provincial library?

Mr. Carrier: The community of librarians is a world that talks. They are connected. They walk in partnership and they exchange information. No one is looking for some kind of business like control. It does not happen that way. It is an open world; we bring resources together. For example, we have, at Library and Archives Canada, a site by the name of Images Canada. You can find anything you want on that site. If you want a gentleman with a glass of water and glasses, you will find it. If you want an image of a lady with a fur hat, you will find that. There are more than 100,000 images now, and it is growing. This site is housed at the Library and Archives Canada, but it is done in agreement with and through partnerships with many research and municipal libraries and museums from all across Canada.

Mr. Wilson: The essential concept is networking and resource sharing. The National Library has maintained the national bibliographic database for years. From that, on line, you can quickly find where any published material is in what library. If it is not available in a library in Prince Edward Island, it can be requested through an interlibrary loan, so the entire resources of the published materials in the National Library are available to back up the library system in Prince Edward Island.

On the archival side, it has been more difficult. We are still constructing a national database on where collections are, but there has not been the imperative because even knowing that does not necessarily get you directly to that material. This material is unique and irreplaceable. We are moving quickly to launch, in the next month or so, a service called Digital on Demand. If you see something in our collection that you want from Charlottetown or Prince George or wherever in Canada, can we deliver that to you electronically, on line, and how quickly? We are working on that. If it is within reason — a few hundred pages — we can do it. If someone wants everything we have on World War I, that will be several billion dollars and several years later. We are trying to use the technology to network to ensure that if someone needs access to something anywhere in the system, they should be able to get access to it.

Mr. Carrier: In P.E.I., for example, if a client is looking for a particular work, he or she can look to the national catalogue. If the material is not available in P.E.I., the catalogue indicates the closest location where it is available. With this service, we have saved Canadians approximately $8 million because they do not have to do the same work; we do it for them.

Senator Callbeck: What about the small rural libraries that are not on line? Do they have access?

Mr. Carrier: They have access, free of charge, to the same services that Toronto might have. It is the same for all Canadians.

Mr. Wilson: For a while, I was responsible for the public library system in Ontario. The smaller libraries that were not on-line worked with a partner, or the provincial library service ensured that they could access interlibrary loan, and from there, publications, microfilm and a wealth of material is available. If it is not available that way, photocopies or Digital on Demand will do that in the future.

Senator Keon: Allow me to add my voice of enormous congratulations to you. This is truly an exciting development. Shifting things to CD from 30 years ago is truly exciting when you think about what you can do with it.

A concern was raised that might in some way impair the magnanimity that you two gentlemen have shown, and that is that the process for the appointment of the new officer may leave that person open to a political meddling. Does that concern you, or is that not real?

Mr. Wilson: The provision does not change what has traditionally been in place. It is precisely the same process under which both of us were appointed four and half years ago. In terms of our predecessors back through the 20th century, it is precisely the same process. We think the institution, as it has, will stand on its integrity and its respect, and that will be a strong basis for the new institution and for the leadership of the new institution.

Mr. Carrier: In the culture of those institutions, there is a very deep sense of dedication among the professionals who are doing the work to provide the best services. Furthermore, these individuals have a strong sense justice in respect of ensuring that they provide the proper information in the proper context. Those principles are deeply ingrained in the culture. I do not fear that one person at the top can change that. I do not think it is possible. Do you?

Mr. Wilson: No.

Senator Keon: So you are very comfortable with that, thank you.

Mr. Carrier: From my experience over the past four and one-half years, at no time has there been even a shadow of effort to influence me politically.

The Acting Chairman: I have a follow up with an administrative question. How did the staff react to this bill? Has there been a written or oral presentation by the staff to the integration of both institutions?

Mr. Wilson: There have been many processes over the last year and a half since this was announced in the Speech from the Throne in September 2002. We have been involving many of the staff in working groups, planning, visioning, looking at the commonalities and what we can do to bring things can come together.

The reaction from staff, by and large, is positive. Change is difficult, and there will be the process of change. However, they are far more excited by the possibilities and the potential of the future. We have provided assurances that this is not a process to reduce budgets or eliminate staff. It is a process to maximize our potential as the knowledge institution of the 21st century, and we are finding there is a lot of excitement from staff on this.

Mr. Carrier: We were clear right at the beginning that we could not do it by ourselves and that we needed the staff. We had sometimes over 50 committees working on different issues and questions. I think there is quite a bit of excitement. Many of them are just saying, ``Come on, make a decision. Make it happen.''

[Translation]

Senator Léger: We have heard words that we do not hear often. You have talked about vision and I think that the term is exactly the right one for the field of the arts.

[English]

Enduring knowledge to all. I have the feeling that is what we want in all the fields of life. Here you have concreted life-long learning.

[Translation]

You have a role to play in arts and culture. It is rare that we get to study a bill without discussing finances. This indicates that there are no financial problems in your institution and that is fabulous. But this will have to be discussed within the framework of another law and I hope that this will not prevent you from doing what you have to do.

Mr. Wilson: We certainly have a few budgetary challenges to meet because since the 1990s, there has been a 30 per cent decrease in our purchasing power. As long as the documentary collection continues to grow and become more sophisticated, there certainly are challenges in this area.

In terms of library and archives, you have to think of the long term. We have to solve the problems we have with current facilities. Some of them are very modern, whereas others are in a deplorable state. We have to solve this problem quickly because we risk losing a part of this documentary heritage.

When we undertook this project, we had not thought that we would have to justify requesting a bigger budget. Whatever the scope of the budget to be granted next April 1 — or before, if everything accelerates — we are ready to create this new organization within the limits of the budget we will have at our disposal.

With more specific planning, we will have to undertake discussions with the government in order to be apprised of its investment objectives in Library and Archives Canada.

Senator Léger:With the vision, it will be easier to take the next steps because you will have reached your objectives. Everyone, young and old, will understand the importance of the needs you have expressed to us today. You will teach us by experiencing this in a practical way, and not only by formulating theories. Often, there are areas we are not familiar with, and I can tell you that I learn a lot in the Senate.

You want to help all Canadians have this rich store of learning at their disposal and in light of that, I think it will be easier for you to obtain funding.

Mr. Wilson: We are heading into uncharted waters. In fact, we are experimenting and I am convinced that these experiments will be useful to many other people in Canada and outside of our borders.

[English]

Mr. Wilson: We are reviewing everything we do. We are engaging all our staff in understanding what it is we are doing and whether is it still essential or are there better ways of doing it? We will demonstrate that we are one of the most efficient institutions around. We will demonstrate that we have a powerful and compelling vision for Canada. We can also demonstrate that the collections that we talk about — quite apart from their cultural value, have a monetary value — which is probably the most valuable asset maintained by the Government of Canada. We have a strong argument to say that we must look after that asset properly, protect it and then maximize its use for all Canadians as a living part of the Canadian memory. We will be trying to do that as one strong, new institution.

Senator Léger: Political meddling is the opposite of your field. I agree with you, Mr. Carrier, when you say there is dedication. I do not believe that artists think in terms of politics. We cannot. It just does not happen.

Senator Roche: I would like to extend my congratulations to Mr. Carrier and Mr. Wilson who are two outstanding representatives in terms of the leadership they are giving to both their institutions.

My questions concern the future both of you have been mentioning, in particular the phrase ``digital on demand,'' which is a very apt expression of where we are in this new world that has opened up. As you merge the library and the archives is there any limit to the amount of knowledge that can be stored? I relate my question to the Internet, which is an explosion every day of information on subjects without end.

Could you describe for me your thinking about how all this can be contained in manageable ways in this merged institution that emphasizes both the library, which has a certain aspect of what is current, and the archives, which is storage of the past? How will you do this in this age?

Mr. Wilson: It is a continuing challenge. One of the skills our staff bring is the ability to select and organize large masses of information. In dealing with the official record of government, the National Archives has traditionally kept a very small percentage identified as being of enduring value. The rest is disposed of fairly quickly.

In dealing with the Web, this bill provides authority to harvest important sites that are freely available on the Web. It would enable us to harvest these so that we can bring in, at least, the important parts. A number of other countries are doing this, in particular the ``.ca'' domain.

Electronically, the cost of storage is dropping rapidly. We can store more and more for less and less in the electronic universe, although it does bring its own problems of long-term preservation and integrity around electronic records. However, we and other countries are working quickly on the electronic archive-library infrastructure to maintain the electronic materials that the library has been gathering for some years now, Web sites and e-mail systems — all of which need to be maintained and need to be part of our national record now.

There are techniques. Our staff are trained in assessing and sampling. We will be encouraging provincial archives, university archives, and other libraries to take their role in their areas, but we will be doing this from a national perspective.

Mr. Carrier: It is unmapped territory. Some months ago, the National Library of Canada signed an agreement with the national libraries of France, Australia, and the U.K. as well as the Library of Congress to share the knowledge as to how we can do this, what are the limits, what is the best way of doing it and what is the best technology. Everyone is looking into this challenge.

We are also talking about information overload. I was told — and I do not know if it is true — that there are over 37,000 sites on the Web that talk about information overload. That is why it is important for a country, in that huge cacophonic concert, to have our national voice. Together, we have a stronger voice. That is one of the reasons why we wanted to merge.

Senator Roche: Again, I congratulate you and extend my best wishes. We want young people in particular to access the information through your system — this is good for education and good for Canada.

My question revolves around the classic confrontation between obscenity on the one hand and free speech on the other. What I consider obscene, somebody will say is free speech. This argument goes on forever. Perhaps the only way to resolve it is with a judge of the Supreme Court of the United States who said, ``I know obscenity when I see it.''

When a young person goes into a library, the librarian or somebody there more or less sees what this person is looking at. However, in this system, unless there is constant direct parental supervision, the young person has access to much material that is not healthy for that young person to see. I know that the library and the archives are not fostering this material. I am not worried about that.

However, in Web links that could be obtained through accessing this new institution, is it possible that material of a harmful nature can get through? Material is getting through at this very minute to my own office, which is a government office. I am afraid to turn my computer on sometimes. I am assailed by material that is coming in e-mails with links, material that I have certainly not solicited but with which I am being inundated. It is extremely offensive.

I worry about the modern age of the digital on demand, as you aptly put it. How can you, as government representatives, institute some form of management — if not control — over material that I am pretty sure everyone in this room would agree is offensive and harmful and ought not to be accessed by young people through an institution that carries a government label?

Mr. Carrier: That is a difficult question. I suppose that many parents do not know what their children will see when they come home from school and go to their room to do their homework.

There is a need to educate the children. However, are we doing a great job? I do not believe so. In most parts of Canada, there once was a teacher librarian whose responsibility was to help children to learn how to find information in the library as well as on the Web. Children need to learn research skills so they can find the right materials. Those teacher librarians are no longer there.

There is a role for the parents. I wonder how the parents are prepared to play that very important role, because, as you say, things pop out on the screen. Kids know that it is very easy to find whatever they want to find.

Through the years librarians have developed experience in trying to balance the right of freedom of access. They will consider whether the person is doing scientific research or something else? They try to know, to balance, to judge the nature of requests for certain materials. They would not allow kids to access it. They developed some knowledge, expertise and wisdom. However, it is a very savage world out there and many entrepreneurs have no respect for children. On contrary, they turn it into a business.

Senator Roche: That is my worry.

Mr. Wilson: Much of what we will be doing will be to provide access to our collections. Digital on demand will be a service. It will make material that we hold in our collections accessible. I think virtually all that material is simply historical.

For links, we will be working with agencies such as the Canadian Historical Association, who have been recently running a major project to evaluate all the various Web sites around Canadian history and to develop linkages to the best ones. We will be working with them. They have also been checking those Web sites for authenticity. On the Web, you can create historical fiction, which may not have a place as an authentic site.

Public libraries work in a more open environment because they offer direct access to the whole Web. There are many other things out there, but many of our library associations have been working very hard with parent groups and school groups to develop programs for the responsible use of the Web by youngsters and how to educate children about some of the dangers out there on the Web.

Mr. Carrier: I must not forget to mention the wonderful work done by a group based in Ottawa called Web Awareness Group. They are educating parents, children and teachers about both the possibilities and the dangers of the Web. If you can give them any support, it would be welcome. It is a unique and great organization.

Senator Roche: Thank you.

The Acting Chairman: I think there are two different issues. One is the material within the archives and the library where there is less of a problem, if I understand what Mr. Wilson is saying, and direct access to the Web, which is where the problems are.

If we are strictly within the library and archives, I cannot think of a Canadian historical society having much pornographic material, unless I do not read them well. The issue is more outside on the Web generally.

Senator Roche: Of course, I recognize that. However, it is the electronic links that would be coming in more or less through the government — through the combined library Web site — and both gentlemen have responded to my question.

Senator Cordy: Having formerly been an elementary school teacher, I know our school put in safeguards, and spoke to parents about concerns for linkages. Sometimes it was unintentional: the children would type something in, and something one would not like to see on the screen would pop up. If something ``curious'' popped up, every student in the school knew that they should check out that site.

I would like to congratulate you for the work you have done. I agree, Mr. Carrier, It is much better to have you both here extolling the virtues of the legislation than determining what your turf will be.

Since you have already answered my other question, one thing that surprised me was that there are 300 federal libraries. I always thought the federal libraries were here in Ottawa. Where are the other 300 federal libraries?

Mr. Carrier: They are all over the country. For example, there is one in Yukon that specializes in mines and maps of mining country. There are libraries devoted to the subjects of agriculture and justice. They are very specialized. Many are not at this moment open to the public, but at the Council of Federal Libraries, we are looking at how we can bring to Canadians that tremendous richness.

They have a very positive economic effect. When a new book appears, in some departments 500 individuals say, ``This is a great book that I want to read.'' Everyone will go and buy the book himself. The library buys a lot at a better price. They are causing savings to happen.

Senator Cordy: How do we get Canadians to know about these things that will be available on the Web? Will they all be listed? There would be thousands, I would think.

Mr. Carrier: These two institutions are unknown treasures. That is why we have spent much time promoting them across the country. Canadians have paid for these institutions; they own them. We want to deliver it to them.

Mr. Wilson: As we come together, others are beginning to look at commonalities and where they should come together. The Council of Federal Libraries is exploring a variety of ways to work together. Every department has a library and there are resource centres everywhere. They are looking at how to come together to provide a common desktop reference service. On the computer screens on every public servant's desk, there should be a common desktop resource centre. Why not? We can do it these days. They are looking at cooperative acquisitions and cataloguing as well as their material into AMICUS, the national database so that the material is known to everyone in the country.

Senator LaPierre: The dream has come to be. For years and years, one has been talking about this and finally the memory banks of my country will be one memory bank. I find this challenging, beautiful, and quite magnificent. I thank you both for having pioneered this project and, I hope, bringing it to a satisfactory conclusion.

You will have one castle with two wings and so Apartheid will continue.

Mr. Wilson: There will not be two wings, Senator LaPierre. We will integrate based on function. There will be one reference function. We can train librarians and archivists to provide reference to the two kinds of material in the collections; it opens up new horizons. There will be one preservation service for books and archival material. There will be one Web site. We are working hard to try to integrate a massive Web site. We are looking at services to government with our information management and federal libraries.

As we come together, there are marvellous synergies around an esoteric area called ``metadata,'' which is fundamental to finding information in this mass of information. We have the expertise in the Government of Canada around metadata. We are helping many departments work and standardize in the way in which we describe things so that Canadians can find it with a common vocabulary.

No, there will not be two wings in this castle. This is a unitary castle, based on function and focusing outward. Far too much energy in the two institutions has been directed inward. We are looking at how to focus that energy outward, how we serve, how we find new ways, how we acquire and maintain this memory of Canada. I am not worried about that.

If we set this thing up properly — and we are getting close — as soon as this legislation comes together, to move on that, then you will see a new institution. It is not simply two pieces that have artificially come together. It will be one integrated institution.

Senator LaPierre: It is founded on two professions: the librarian and the archivist. In the history of these two institutions in Canada, they have not talked to each other. In fact, they often would not even share the same elevator. The history of this would be a magnificent movie.

We will maintain this. I am not suggesting that archivists and librarians cannot work together. For example if I were a 12 year old doing research on La Vérendrye and wrote to the National Library of Canada/National Archives of Canada to request certain books on the subject. However, you also have a collection of the La Vérendrye papers, which would probably be even more fun for me than the books that are written by someone else. How do I know that the papers are there?

Mr. Wilson: The new institution will be an alliance of many professions — not just archivists and librarians. We need a range of other professions — all valued and important — contributing their skills. We have been very clear in this entire process and we have both emphasized the point that the institutions exist to serve Canadians. They do not exist to serve the professions. The professions will work with us and through us to serve Canadians.

We are offering a new vision to the professions. It is an exciting vision with great potential that will engage all of them and all of their energy. We have a huge challenge ahead of us on how to realize and fulfill that vision. I believe we will do that.

That child who wants information on La Vérendrye will come to one reference service — electronically, in person or by letter, telex or fax to ask what we have on that subject?

The real challenge will be to sort out what level of information is required. Does the child simply want the Canadian encyclopedia entry on La Vérendrye? Does he want 10 books and all the papers? We have enough La Vérendrye to keep people going to do a doctoral thesis. That is the real challenge on reference service in this institution. What level? We are looking at a series of levels as to how we provide it through to our great specialists in Canadian cartography who know about La Vérendrye.

I have lived the issues because I have been an archivist for many years and I have been involved in libraries. By offering a powerful vision of what this institution can be — focused out on Canadian and on our collections — we are already seeing that we have the full engagement and cooperation of a range of professionals.

Mr. Carrier: Throughout all our discussions we have never had the view that we will be two businesses under one roof. We are trying to create something new. You should see the people from different professions talking together — they have been learning from one another since meetings about the merger began. You should see the people in the reference services trying to find new ways of how to serve the public as one institution. You should see the archivists and librarians asking how they can find convergence in their ways of describing the material.

It is already happening. This new chemistry is happening.

Senator LaPierre: It will not help your floods — your books floating on water. It will not help you, Mr. Wilson, as you have no place to store your records. However, I have no doubt that once this is done, the rest will follow.

Mr. Carrier: We hope it will be done soon because internally we are ready to work as one. When it is done, it will be a very important and strong organization. There will be more than 1,000 staff with an interesting budget. I think that we will get some attention.

We are already working. Some temporary solutions were offered to our challenge of preserving our treasured documents from the water. It will be time very soon to think of a long-term solution. In the experience of other countries, it takes something like 15 years before a commitment materializes into a building.

[Translation]

I am going to say this in French: a structure worthy of the dream of a nation. The process takes about 15 years. It will soon be time to deliver on this political commitment.

[English]

This country needs new facilities for its national library and archives.

Senator LaPierre: We shall build you a magnificent building on LeBreton Flats, by the banks of the Ottawa River, —one of the great rivers of our country — and it will cost $1.5 billion.

Senator Fairbairn: Are other countries of the world not watching what is happening here? This may not be unique, perhaps, but we are taking a step that is of great interest to other countries, including, I believe, the United States. They are interested in what you are doing at a national level.

Mr. Carrier: Last August, there was a meeting of IFLA, the International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions, which is a group of national librarians from all over the world. They were all aware of what we are doing and that prompted them to write a question for the agenda of our next meeting, to be held in August 2004: How can we work more closely with archives? That is quite an accomplishment. Many people who came to visit Canada were curious to know what we were doing.

Senator LaPierre: I received copies of letters that were sent to Senator Kirby regarding copyright. One came from the Montgomery family, who wrote that this bill has created problems for them. The original bill, as you know, allowed continuation until December 31. The Canadian Publishers Council has also written to the effect that an extension of copyright for an additional three years for unpublished or posthumously published works of writers whose death preceded 1949 will give interested parties a reasonable period of transition for the works.

Is that valid? That is in the bill.

Mr. Wilson: I am not an expert in copyright. Others will be here this afternoon who can respond to that. My understanding is that as of January 1, that material went into the public domain. Retroactive copyright legislation, I believe, is impossible.

The Acting Chairman: Thank you, witnesses.

We welcome our next panel.

Please proceed.

Mr. Don Butcher, Executive Director, Canadian Library Association: Honourable senators, on behalf of the library community and its three principal associations, we wish to thank you for the opportunity to testify on Bill C-8, to establish the Library and Archives of Canada.

I am accompanied by Mr. Timothy Mark, Executive Director of the Canadian Association of Research Libraries, or CARL, and Mr. Cabral, Chief Executive Officer of l'Association pour l'avancement des sciences et des techniques de la documentation, or AASTD.

The library community would like to commend the new government on reinstating this legislation. We support the principle of Bill C-8 and look forward to its passage into law. As you have heard, this legislation involves more than a bureaucratic restructuring; it represents a new vision of the role that information resources are called upon to play in contemporary society — a vision captured so eloquently in the four short paragraphs of the preamble in legislation.

The library community is also pleased that the transitional copyright provisions of bill, found in clause 21, which complicated deliberations in the other place, have been rendered obsolete since January 1. As parliamentarians, you are now free to concentrate on the heart of this legislation, namely, how to create a new agency that will provide all Canadians with greater access to their history, their culture and the knowledge necessary for the social and economic advancement by transforming two important public institutions, by enhancing preservation, and by making greater use of new information and communications technologies.

[Translation]

Mr. Louis Cabral, Executive Director, Association pour l'avancement des sciences et des techniques de la documentation: Our presentation today will focus therefore on the means for achieving the vision so well set out in the preamble. That preamble captures the three essential functions of the new Library and Archives institution, the stewardship function in paragraphs (a) and (d), the knowledge management function in paragraph (c), and the access function in paragraph (b).

However, that same balance is not maintained in the legally more important Objects section of the bill. We would therefore like to propose for your consideration adjustments to the wording of clause 7, which we believe would more fully reflect the vision contained in the preamble.

If we turn to clause 7, we find that the six objects listed deal satisfactorily with the stewardship function in paragraphs (a) and (c) and with the internal to government aspects of the knowledge management function in paragraphs (d) and (e).

However, the access function and the external or client relations aspect of the knowledge management function leaves something to be desired. For example, the access function, which is touched upon in paragraph (b) reads: ``to make that heritage known to Canadians and to anyone with an interest in Canada and to facilitate access to it.'' That wording pales in comparison to the wording in paragraph (b) of the preamble, which reads: that Canada be served by an institution that is a source of enduring knowledge accessible to all, contributing to the cultural, social and economic advancement of Canada as a free and democratic society.

With these words, we see that this bill is not just about preserving and managing publications and government records; it is also about contributing to Canadians becoming leaders in innovation, and assisting scientific researchers, students and life-long learners who, at different levels, want access to information in order to transform it into useful knowledge.

In other words, the new Library and Archives of Canada is an institution not only oriented toward the past, but also to the future.

As an object of the bill, ``facilitating access'' should also be spelled out more clearly in order to recognize the social equity function of public libraries. Libraries ensure that the disadvantaged in society — whether it be the physically, linguistically or financially disadvantaged — have an equal opportunity to access the resources necessary to participate in today's knowledge-based society.

While proposing these clarifications for your consideration, the library community is very mindful of the fact that nearly a year has passed since this legislation was first introduced in Parliament. We are all anxious to see the proposed transformation come to fruition and we therefore do not want to see any undue delay in the passage of the legislation.

[English]

Mr. Tim Mark, Executive Director, Canadian Association of Research Libraries: I would like to reiterate Mr. Cabral's last statement that, on behalf of all three major library associations and the library community, our paramount concern is a speedy passage for Bill C-8.

If the vision articulated in the preamble of the new library and archives of Canada is to be realized, it must be given the necessary resources. In chapter 6 of the November 2003 report, the Auditor General of Canada drew attention to the lamentable state of Canada's built, archival and published heritage that is under the auspices of the federal government. In Ms. Fraser's words, ``It is exposed to serious risks of losses.''

One of the reasons cited for this situation is the decrease in funding while the Canada's documentary heritage continues to grow. The federal government's combined funding of the National Archives and the National Library, as we heard earlier, stood at just under $90 million in 1990-91. For 2003-04 — the fiscal year just ending — that amount declined to just over $80 million. In constant dollars, that is about $62 million, a decline in base funding over this decade period of 31 per cent.

While drawing attention to this decline in funding, we commend the government for having allocated $7.5 million over three years to help with the transformation of the National Library of Canada and the National Archives of Canada into an innovative knowledge-based institution. It is tangible proof that the merger was not intended by the government to be a cost-cutting excise but, rather, the creation of something new that requires up-front investment.

As the transformation of the two institutions progresses during this three-year period, additional funds may have to be invested to launch new services aimed at preserving, interpreting, making known, and presenting Canada's documentary heritage. The Auditor General's report also drew attention to the well publicized fact that the collections of the National Library are housed in buildings that do not meet accepted standards for temperature, humidity and space for these types of documents. Mr. Carrier is quoted as saying that in the last 16 years, the library has experienced more than 100 environmental incidents, including excessive heat and flooding, that have damaged around 30,000 documents. I happen to know that numbers of these documents have been irreplaceable.

In response to this need for adequate storage facilities, the governmental allocated $15 million in last year's budget to fulfil those needs in the short term and to undertake studies to find the best long-term solution. We would urge the government to move quickly to provide permanent collection facilities to support the preservation of the country's documentary heritage.

In conclusion, honourable senators, the library community welcomes the establishment of the library and archives of Canada and looks forward to partnering with the new institution in making Canadians more aware of the information resources at their disposal and how they can access them for their cultural, social and economic enrichment.

Mr. Butcher: On behalf of the whole library community — small public libraries in rural and remote settings, large academic libraries, federal libraries known in the trade as special libraries and school libraries — we look to this new institution to play a leadership role in improving library services not only in Ottawa, but also across the country. We thank you for your attention and look forward to your questions.

The Acting Chairman: Does your association represent all libraries in the country or only a certain type of library?

Mr. Butcher: The Canadian Library Association has members from all types of libraries, for example, academic libraries — including the members of CARL — together with our French language counterparts in ASTED who also represent a wide range of library types. We have divisions in school libraries, on public libraries, academic libraries and special libraries.

The Acting Chairman: You cover pretty well the whole field?

Mr. Butcher: Yes.

Senator Callbeck: Do you have representation from every province?

Mr. Butcher: We have representation from every province and all three territories.

Senator Fairbairn: I must admit to the committee that I am an unabashed fan of this organization and the remarkable job it does on the ground — not here in Ottawa and Parliament Hill, although it was a good presentation today — but throughout our country. Next to health, I do not think at this point in time there is anything more important than enabling Canadians young and old to read and gain in the knowledge that is coming at us more quickly than ever before.

I am glad that you have put the issue on record here at our committee, and that is the appalling condition in which many of these national treasures are living. Indeed, many have already been in some cases damaged to the position that they are lost. The government has allocated $15 million to fulfil those needs, as you put it, in the short term. I would encourage you.

As you address the people around this table, I believe that this is one issue in which everyone parks their politics for the greater good. The government needs every amount of pressure that one can exert to ensure that our treasures — both in the Archives and the Library — are protected. This is a national asset. Given what we have heard today about the communication that is available and what we are able to do through technology, we must be more vigilant than ever in ensuring that all of these treasures are safe and protected so that they can be used to the widest possible distribution.

Keep up that pressure. We will do our best. Now that this new entity has been formed, it is a good time to make sure that we protect what it is supposed to advance.

The Acting Chairman: Would you like to react to that, Mr. Butcher?

Mr. Butcher: Our association passed a resolution at a general meet ago few years ago calling for a new building for what was then the National Library of Canada. I am sure our members would see the proposed Library and Archives of Canada as a way to ensure the preservation. There are a few parts to this. Our predecessors on the panel here, Mr. Carrier and Mr. Wilson, talked a great deal about dissemination. Clearly, that is a core library function, but if you do not preserve it you cannot disseminate it and we, as Canadians, cannot access it.

My colleague Mr. Mark is probably the strongest of the three of us on the preservation argument, so I will actually not ask him to respond, but we do appreciate your support on that.

Mr. Mark: I will not comment on preservation, which is indeed a very important matter. Perhaps it will be raised from the floor, in which case I can address it. In terms of the campaign for suitable facilities for the National Library and National Archives collection, this is again of paramount importance. All three of our associations have run a letter-writing campaign over the past two or three years — in our case, the research libraries in association with various writers' groups. We have a new war museum building now, but not yet a new Library and Archives building. I do think this is critical, because this is our documentary heritage, and these materials, once lost, are gone forever. They are irrecoverable. We owe it to prosperity to house these.

[Translation]

Mr. Cabral: There is a book by Michel Melot entitled Nouvelles Alexandries which refers to the Library of Alexandria; in it, the author gives a portrait of the national libraries of several countries. The buildings that harbour national libraries are also vehicles of identity and pride.

The Canadian government should consider that aspect and be proud of a building which is an icon to which symbolic value will be attached. Canadian writers and musicians, in light of the state of the conservation of their documents, may not be inclined to deliver their own documents to these institutions for posterity. This is an important matter, one which I hope will trigger some awareness-raising in all of the persons around this table.

[English]

Senator Keon: The Internet is a huge problem now. For example, I am a health professional and for another three weeks I am CEO of a health institution. We waste enormous time and resources because people draw garbage off the Internet. We have to deal with that. Someone has to sit down with these people and tell them what is credible and what is not. I have urged Health Canada to put up a Web site of reliable information. That has not come about, although they have some information there.

I want to pursue this with someone, so I am asking for your help. What would be the right direction to focus this, with this new Library and Archives of Canada, or with Health Canada, or with both?

Mr. Butcher: My initial answer to that would be a combination of Health Canada and the Canadian Association of Health Librarians.

You have highlighted probably the key aspect of the Internet. We all know there is a lot of information out there that is not credible. Anyone can write something and post it. The professional librarian and archivist can act as intermediaries to assist the client or patron in determining what is authentic. We will never replace the humans in this equation. That is why the librarians and archivists are not concerned about the Internet as a threat to their jobs. I expect there would be tremendous support from the health librarians.

Senator Keon: They would need a leader of some type. One of the problems with the field of information technology — particularly with respect to health — is that you cannot get anyone to declare himself or herself a leader. You have little pockets of activity. Maybe that is a good thing. You can let people do their own thing and integrate it later.

However, it seems to me there should be national leadership in this, and it is a question of where to identify it.

Mr. Butcher: You are talking about leadership in the Internet world. We, as I think Canadians, look to government to take that on. In this particular example, Health Canada would seem to be an appropriate leader. We could have a long debate about the role of the Internet and how it is like the Wild West with no laws and rules, and the strengths and weaknesses of that. However, I take your point about leadership to heart. I think Canadians would answer that they look to the government for leadership.

The Acting Chairman: Thank you for coming. We take great comfort from the fact that you are all supporting the legislation. For us, it is very important that you people representing all libraries in the country support this bill, and that will certainly help us in our deliberations.

Before we move to clause by clause consideration, Senator LaPierre would like to make some final comments. I realize there are some amendments of a technical nature coming up, and we will have representatives from the various departments to help us through this.

Senator LaPierre: I would bring the attention of the members of the committee to the ``whereas'' on the first page of Bill C-8, which states exactly what this is all about. This is a great national project of immense importance for the reasons stated, as these institutions serve as a continuing memory for the Government of Canada and its institutions, and therefore it is the memory bank of the country of our nation. That is what we have to remember. This is a good law.

The Acting Chairman: There is pretty unanimous support for the law itself.

I would like to welcome Mr. Jean Guérette, Mr. Jeff Richstone, and Andrée Delagrave. I will ask the witnesses to whom I address my question to succinctly give us the reason for the amendment. We will move through the clause by clause consideration.

As usual, if you agree, we will postpone the long title, preamble and short title. Is it agreed?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Acting Chairman: Shall clauses 2 to clause 20 carry?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Acting Chairman: Shall clause 21 carry?

Mr. Guérette, will you tell us why clause 21 should be negatived?

Mr. Jean Guérette, Executive Director, Portfolio Affairs, Department of Canadian Heritage: Clause 21 dealt with the issue of copyright that was raised during the discussions that took place this afternoon.

This is a copyright issue, which originally would have extended protection to works of authors who had died 50 years before 1949. Those works were to come into the public domain as of December 31, 2003. When the bill was originally introduced, there was a discussion about giving a 15-year extension of protection to those works to bring them more in line with other types of work of people who had died in other periods.

That clause, as you have heard, was the subject of great debate. In fact, it is one of the main reasons this bill has taken so long to get through the House and through the committees in the previous Parliament. In the end, in order to resolve this controversy, the House made an amendment that, instead of giving a 15-year extension, brought it down to three years so that this matter could be brought forward through the next stages of copyright revision.

Since the bill has passed through the House, these works have now fallen into the public domain. Therefore, as we speak today, this provision is obsolete. To rectify that retroactively would be so complex that we would need many more months of discussion over the issue.

We suggest that this clause be removed from the bill at this stage.

The Acting Chairman: The clause is redundant because the material is already in the public domain.

Mr. Guérette: That is right, as of December 31, 2000.

The Acting Chairman: Therefore, honourable senators, shall clause 21 carry or be negatived?

Hon. Senators: Negatived.

The Acting Chairman: Shall clauses 22 to 32 carry?

Hon. Senators: Agreed

The Acting Chairman: Shall clause 33 carry?

Before that question is answered, I would ask Mr. Richstone to explain why 33.1 has been added to this clause.

Mr. Jeff Richstone, General Counsel, Department of Canadian Heritage: This is a clause that will be inserted following clause 33, Mr. Chairman, which deals with a new bill that was numbered Bill C-44 in the last session of Parliament and which is now Chapter 14 of the statutes of 2003. It is called the ``Injured Military Members Compensation Act.'' At the time this measure was tabled in Parliament in June 2003, there was a clause in the bill that referred to the National Archives Act. This is called a ``consequential'' amendment. It said that if Bill C-36 should receive Royal Assent, then that clause would be repealed and the clause at the end, which refers to the Library and Archives of Canada, would come into force.

As we all know, that clause did not come into force because Bill C-44 came into force much sooner than the proposed library and archives act since we are talking about that bill today. To ensure that the bill we are looking at now makes the appropriate revision to change the name of the institution, which is in section 13 of the statute of 2003, this is a consequential amendment. This would change the name of the institution from National Archives of Canada to the name of the new institution. It is a simple consequential amendment.

The Acting Chairman: We should be clear on what we are voting. We are dealing with a new clause 33.1. The sponsor of the bill, Senator LaPierre, should agree with this.

Do you understand what is going on, senator?

Senator LaPierre: Not really.

The Acting Chairman: Mr. Richstone, would you go over that again?

Senator LaPierre: We are at number 33, are we not? I have it here in front of me. However, I do not seem to understand it.

The Acting Chairman: This is very important, Mr. Richstone. I do not want to give the impression that we are rubber-stamping anything. I want all honourable senators to understand this clearly. Take your time to explain it.

I must admit that, suddenly, I see the Injured Military Members Compensation Act coming out of the picture and I still cannot understand. I must say I am a bit upset by the fact that we have heard all of this in the last hour. Perhaps it has been around somewhere, but we have not heard of it before today. We were not made aware of it before today. Will you explain this carefully?

We should all understand this, especially Senator LaPierre who is the sponsor of the bill.

Could you start again, please?

Mr. Richstone: Bill C-8 creates a new institution. All the clauses up to the end of clause 20 deal with the act itself — the act proper, the act creating the institution. Once you have done that, then you have to look around at all the different statutes of Canada and see where you have a reference to either the National Archives or the National Library and change that reference to the name of the new institution, which is Library and Archives of Canada. All the amendments that you see, starting on page 11, are consequential amendments.

Wherever there is a name of an institution — either National Library or National Archives, these clauses amend those provisions and insert the new name. That is the only purpose of all these consequential amendments from clause 23 on.

The list that was done here in Bill C-8, as presented in Parliament, was done by Justice drafters on the basis of bills or acts of Parliament that are before Parliament or that have been enacted. When the former Bill C-36 was drafted, there was no Bill C-44 — as you know, Bill C-36 came before Bill C-44. We did not know about Bill C-44. It was tabled in June 2003.

The Acting Chairman: Does Bill C-44 have to do with the military members?

Mr. Richstone: Yes.

When that was tabled in June 2003, it made reference to the predecessor of Bill C-8, which was Bill C-36. It said that there was a provision in that statute, in particular clause 13, which deals with the certain provision of certain personal information, and it listed a number of places where personal information could be found about the military personnel, one of them being in the National Archives Act. However, when they were passing this, the drafters in Parliament knew that the National Archives Act would be repealed by Bill C-36, if it passed. At the end of that statute, Bill C-44 — now a statute of Canada — there was what they call a ``coordinating'' amendment that said that if Bill C-36 passes, then any reference to the National Archives changes and becomes a reference to Library and Archives of Canada.

However, Bill C-44 got enacted in the last session of Parliament, not Bill C-36, as you know, because we are here today. That clause was spent or was empty, and did not receive application. Now, since the new institution is being created, if the Senate and the Parliament enacts this legislation, one has to pick up that reference to the National Archives and change it. The only vehicle by which it can be changed is this bill. Therefore, you have to insert after the reference to ``Income Tax Act,'' a reference to this new act, which is in alphabetical order, the Injured Military Members Compensation Act. You have to insert that reference and make that corresponding change.

The Acting Chairman: The new amendments from now on will refer to legislation that has been passed since the bill has been introduced in the House. Am I correct?

Mr. Richstone: That is right.

The Acting Chairman: This is all reference to new legislation that has been passed. I think I understand.

Senator LaPierre: I have here, that Bill C-8 be amended on page 13, by adding after line 31, the following:

33.1 Paragraph 13(c) of the Injured Military Members Compensation Act is replaced by the following:...

This is all under the income tax of Canada. Are we on the same page, page 13?

Mr. Richstone: Yes, but just above that there is a line in italics, ``Injured Military Members Compensation Act.'' That is the heading.

Senator LaPierre: Where?

Mr. Richstone: There is 2003, chapter 14, and then the heading, ``Injured Military Members Compensation Act.''

Senator LaPierre: Nunavut Land Claims.

Mr. Richstone: No, it is inserted at the end of page 13.

Senator LaPierre: I am on page 13 here of this bill, and clause 33 does not deal with what you are talking about. I am not totally dumb.

Mr. Richstone: It is an insertion. You are not removing; you are adding.

Senator LaPierre: We are going to add a paragraph. I see. Thank you.

The Acting Chairman: Are you satisfied, Senator LaPierre?

Senator LaPierre: Yes. I apologize.

The Acting Chairman: I will ask if clause 33 will carry and then Senator LaPierre will move an amendment.

Shall clause 33 carry?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Acting Chairman: Senator LaPierre, it is up to you to make your amendment to add to the clause, if you want to read what you want to add, as 33.1.

Senator LaPierre: We will add what they want us to add. Injured Military Members Compensation Act, and then 33.1 reads:

Paragraph 13(c) of the Injured Military Members Compensation Act is replaced by the following:

(c) personal information collected or obtained by the Library and Archives of Canada in the administration of the Library and Archives of Canada Act, or any predecessor enactment relating to the same subject matter.

We move this and it will now be inscribed in the law. That is very good.

The Acting Chairman: Mr. Richstone, from 33 to 52, there is no problem?

Mr. Richstone: That is right.

The Acting Chairman: Shall clauses 34 to 52 carry?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Acting Chairman: We move to clause 53. Let us do this slowly and carefully.

Mr. Richstone, will you be the person who will explain what we are doing to 53?

Mr. Richstone: This clause provides for a change to the reference to the statute. In the last session of Parliament, the Assisted Human Reproduction Act was Bill C-13. This, again, is a ``coordinating'' amendment that will change the reference from Bill C-13 to Bill C-6, the current legislation and to change the reference to the second session of parliament to the third session of parliament.

The Acting Chairman: Shall clause 53 carry?

Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Acting Chairman: There is an amendment to clause 53 and I recognize Senator LaPierre.

Senator LaPierre: I would like to move the amend as follows:

[Translation]

That bill C-8 be amended in clause 53 on page 20 by substituting in line 7 the following:

``C-6, tabled chairing the third session of the''.

[English]

The Acting Chairman: Is the amendment agreed to?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Acting Chairman: It is smooth sailing now.

Shall the amended clause 53 carry?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Acting Chairman: Shall clauses 54 to 57 carry?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Acting Chairman: Shall clause 1, which contains the short title, carry?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Acting Chairman: Shall the preamble carry?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Acting Chairman: Shall the title carry?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Acting Chairman: Is it agreed that this bill be adopted with amendments?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Acting Chairman: It is agreed that I report this bill as amended at the next sitting of the Senate?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Acting Chairman: That was tough.

I must say that I cannot understand why we had all this material in the last hour. Otherwise, we could have worked through this and met with you. It is really not the way to go through legislation, but that is how it is.

Thank you for coming.

The committee adjourned.