Proceedings of the Subcommittee on the
Boreal Forest
Standing
Senate Committee on
Agriculture and Forestry
Issue 3 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Monday, April 7, 1997
The Subcommittee on Boreal Forest of the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry met this day at 5:23 p.m. to continue its study on the present state and future of forestry in Canada as it relates to the boreal forest.
Senator Doris M. Anderson (Chair) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chair: Welcome to the hearings on the boreal forest. Two weeks ago, we had a fascinating discussion on boreal forests and global climate change. Today, we have three witnesses from the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. We are looking forward to your presentation. Mr. Hatfield, please proceed.
Mr. Ray Hatfield, Acting Director, Environment and Natural Resources Directorate, Lands and Environment Branch Lands and Trust Services, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada: I welcome this opportunity to appear before you to discuss the boreal forest and its relationship to First Nations in the north. With me are Mr. Peter Wyse, the Manager of Natural Resources in the Indian Affairs program, as well as Mr. Gilbert Aubin, the forestry advisor in the Northern Affairs program.
The boreal forest relates to the mandate of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development in three ways: first, the department administers the cutting and removal of timber from reserve land under the Indian Act; second, the department supports the economic development of First Nation communities since, for many, accessing economic opportunities based on the boreal forest constitutes the primary basis for economic progress; and third, the department manages the forest in the Yukon.
I should like to take the next few minutes to talk about these three areas of the department's mandate, beginning with reserve forests.
Reserves are federal Crown lands set aside for the use and benefit of Indian people and administered in accordance with the Indian Act. There are approximately 2.7 million hectares of reserve lands, of which 1.4 million hectares are forested. Reserve forests make up only 0.5 per cent of Canada's forest estate; however, they constitute 25 per cent of federal productive forest land south of the 60th parallel.
Almost 500 First Nations communities are located in the boreal forest regions. Any discussion of the state of reserve forests must depend on the purposes that First Nations wish to assign to that forest. Timber production is not the only purpose. Reserve forests are important to First Nations for cultural and spiritual reasons. Other purposes include firewood production, hunting, trapping, gathering, and tourism.
That said, from the perspective of timber production, the Canadian Forest Service and other knowledgeable observers generally concur that these forests are in poor state. This poor state is a result of a variety of factors: fire, insects, disease, overcutting, and highgrading.
Highgrading is the practice of removing the best trees. Over time, this practice leaves the forest with a depleted genetic stock. Overcutting and highgrading result from the economic pressures on the reserve forests. First Nation members typically need firewood. Logging provides jobs and incomes for community members. First Nation Councils use timber revenues to address community priorities.
These factors are matched by weak regulatory controls under the Indian Act and the Indian Timber Regulations. For example, the fine for cutting timber without a permit or a licence is $100. The fine for removing timber from a reserve without proper authorization is $500. Perhaps more significantly, the Indian Act does not provide mechanisms for First Nations to administer or control reserve forests. It does not, for example, allow them to issue timber licences and permits, nor does it allow them to pass by-laws to control firewood cutting. Reforestation and forest tending can remedy problems of overcutting.
Some First Nations have established effective forest management programs. However, most First Nations have other pressing problems in health, education, and social services. For them, it is often difficult to reinvest their timber revenues into forest management. The long payback periods on forest management investments do not help.
Over the period 1984 to 1996, the Canadian Forest Service administered the Indian Lands Forestry Program. It supported First Nation efforts to manage reserve forests. Through it, 305 management plans were developed for 271 First Nations, and 23 million trees were planted. Site preparation occurred on almost 13,000 hectares. Silviculture treatments were provided to 20,000 hectares.
Several current departmental initiatives address the state of reserve forests. In carrying out the federal government's legal obligations under the Indian Act and the Indian Timber Regulations, the department issues permits and licences for the cutting and removal of timber from reserves and takes enforcement action when it becomes aware of unauthorized activities. In recent years, we have increased resources, clarified policies and procedures, trained staff, and initiated amendments to the Indian Timber Regulations to improve enforceability.
The department is exploring with First Nations various options for self-government. It recognizes that many First Nation communities can manage the cutting and removal of timber from reserves much more effectively than the federal government.
The Indian Act Optional Modification Act is currently before the House of Commons. It allows those First Nations who so wish to issue timber licenses. It gives First Nation councils greater authority to manage reserve forests through their by-law powers. Finally, it increases the penalties related to unauthorized cutting and removal of timber.
The First Nation Forestry Program is a new program announced in April of 1996 as a successor to the Indian Land Forestry Program. It is administered jointly with the Canadian Forest Service and has a five-year budget of $24.9 million. The purpose of the program is to encourage forest-based economic development. One objective is to increase First Nation capacity to manage reserve forests on a sustainable basis.
I mentioned earlier that reserve forests occupy approximately 1.4 million hectares. Taken collectively, they cover a significant amount of land. However, for many First Nations, the reserve forests are too small for sustainable long-term timber harvesting. Reasonable jobs requires First Nation access to off-reserve forests.
I should now like to say a few words about First Nation access to off-reserve resources of the boreal forest. As you are aware, most neighbouring off-reserve forests south of the 60th parallel are under provincial jurisdiction.
First Nation access to opportunities based on these forests is important to address the economic needs of First Nations. These opportunities can be of many types: harvesting contracts with provinces or industry, silviculture contracts, firefighting arrangements, manufacturing, co-management arrangements, and jobs in provincial resource management departments.
A few First Nations have been successful in accessing off-reserve opportunities. I am thinking specifically of the First Nations in the Meadow Lake Tribal Council which have become participants in a large forest management licence in northwestern Saskatchewan, and the Tl'azt'en Nations in British Columbia whose development company has a similar arrangement in British Columbia.
Canada's governments and the forest industry are initiating forest certification processes in response to potential boycotts in some markets because of Canada's forest practices. These processes are likely to assist First Nations to access these off-reserve opportunities. To receive certification, a forest manager will be required to demonstrate that forests under his or her control have been managed to a sustainable basis. Certification will depend on, among other things, the extent to which the forest manager addressed aboriginal and treaty rights and allowed for the participation by aboriginal communities in sustainable forest management.
The department has undertaken several initiatives to support First Nation access to off-reserve opportunities and is engaged in a number of processes that may ultimately increase First Nation control over forest land. These processes include treaty land entitlements in the prairies. Under treaty land entitlement, we anticipate the addition of approximately 900,000 hectares to reserves. Much of this land will be in forested areas.
In addition, the negotiation and implementation of various comprehensive land claims will substantially increase First Nation control over off-reserve resources. While land claim negotiations have been initiated to address the legal obligations of the Crown, they will benefit First Nation communities by expanding their land and resource base.
The First Nation Forestry Program, mentioned previously, supports the development of First Nation capacity to participate in forest-based businesses. It also encourages cooperation and partnership among First Nations.
The Resource Access Negotiations Program funds negotiations between First Nations and other parties. The negotiations can cover forest management arrangements, forest harvesting contracts, firefighting arrangements, and silviculture contracts. The funding enables First Nations to secure technical expertise and other resources necessary to conclude agreements. Over the period 1990-91 to 1995-96, approximately $2.46 million was expended on forestry projects and another $4.78 million on resource co-management initiatives.
The Saskatchewan Co-management Innovation Initiative funds First Nation negotiations for resource co-management. This is a four-year initiative with an annual budget of $600,000. The intent of the program is to determine how much can be accomplished with a focused effort. The results of this initiative will be reviewed during 1997-98.
In addition to the resource-related programs I have just mentioned, the department provides First Nation communities with core funding for economic development. In 1996-97, the department allocated $47.7 million for this program.
I should now like to say a few words about departmental involvement in forests in the north. Responsibility for forests in the Northwest Territories has been devolved to the Government of the Northwest Territories. Therefore, I shall focus on the Yukon.
Boreal forest covers approximately 60 per cent of the Yukon Territory's 48.3 million hectares. This forest approximates the forest land base in Manitoba or Saskatchewan. As well, 7.5 million hectares have commercial forest potential. The total area of this productive forest is approximately the same size as the entire forested area of New Brunswick.
The Yukon is considered world-wide as a wilderness area to be preserved for its aesthetic and tourist values rather than harvested for timber. Many Yukoners share this perspective.
The Yukon is divided into two zones for the purposes of forest fire management: a fire action zone on which all wild fire starts receive an initial attack, and an observation zone where fires are left to burn as natural occurrences. The fire policy recognizes the significance of the past and future role of fire in the boreal forest ecosystem while providing for the protection of life, property, and resources in areas of access and importance.
In 1994, lumber shortages in the United States, the high quality of Yukon timber, and low Yukon stumpage fees increased demand and harvesting of Yukon timber. The Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development is refocusing toward sustainable forest management and the enhancement of the forest industry from its previous forest protection orientation.
The Yukon First Nations Umbrella Final Land Claims Agreement determined that 8 per cent of the territorial land would be allocated as settlement land to be negotiated and allocated amongst the 14 Yukon First Nations. This represents acres of forest land that will be going to First Nations. Eventually, each First Nation will own, manage, allocate and protect forest resources on its settlement land.
A Renewable Resources Council is established in each band as the primary instrument for local renewable resources management. The minister must consult with First Nations and the Renewal Resources Councils on all departmental forestry policies and legislation: pesticide/herbicide application, firefighting priorities, and the development of forest management plans.
Four First Nations have signed final agreements and self-government agreements. The four Renewable Resources Councils are becoming increasingly involved in Yukon forest management.
Kaska Forest Resources, a Liard First Nation company, has a timber harvesting agreement and has committed to building and operating a sawmill in the Watson Lake area. The bulk of the wood harvested to date has been sold in British Columbia. The Liard First Nation took the initiative to develop a forest harvesting training program for its people so that they could participate in the forest industry in British Columbia, Alberta, and the Yukon.
The Northern Affairs Program is now contracting out forest fire suppression activities in the Yukon to First Nations. In addition, it has launched a First Nation firefighting training program. One First Nation has developed a course adapted to its people utilizing the existing Northern Affairs course and including further recommendations from elders.
The Government of Canada is committed to devolving provincial-type powers to the territories. Yukon First Nations are being consulted in the devolution negotiations with the Yukon Territorial Government.
The Chair: On page 5, in the fourth paragraph, you say that four First Nations have signed final agreements. Is that four First Nations in the Yukon?
Mr. Hatfield: Yes, it is.
The Chair: I am interested in the many programs which have been initiated for First Nations peoples. I am sure we will hear much more about these programs as we proceed. You have outlined a great many programs which are under way.
Senator Taylor: I found what you are doing on reserve lands and what you are doing to help the aboriginal people harvest their own resources very interesting. However, our tour of operations opened up a whole field upon which you have not touched. You did mention off-reserve land.
My first question relates to the policy you follow in standing up to the provincial governments which may be leasing out forestry reserves for wood in areas where land claims are still outstanding. There seems to be a thundering silence from Ottawa as forests are peddled off to every freight car that goes by on its way back to Japan.
Mr. Hatfield: I will refer specifically to treaty land entitlement, particularly in the prairies.
When the parties negotiate settlement for treaty land entitlement, there are areas of land that the First Nations identify, and certainly there may be forest licences in those areas that have been selected. We are trying to persuade the provincial governments not to issue additional interests in those areas since the provincial Crown land that is coming to First Nations for reserves must be clean of those interests.
However, if those current licences and permits exist, the First Nations will negotiate with the current licence holders and attempt to reach agreement so that they can continue their operations.
Senator Taylor: What help are you giving in the negotiation? For instance, in areas in the Lubicon and Northern Alberta, outside of threatening physical force and burning down the odd bunkhouse, it does not seem to be carrying much weight as far as the companies involved that have the leases. They seem to feel they are dealing with the provincial government and that native land claims are a nuisance which the provincial government can look after. The provincial government in turn looks at it from the perspective that if they lose the lawsuit down the road, they might dig up some money.
In the interim, there are great damages. It is not like an oil and gas lease developed on questionable land. When you take timber off, you change the biodiversity and the lifestyle that aboriginal people can expect. It is not a question of rewarding them with the pulp or wood payments that may have been received.
I have heard nothing from the federal government on that. As a matter of fact, when we interviewed your colleagues in the Department of Forestry, they were absolutely and blissfully unaware of any Native component in the management of forestry.
Mr. Hatfield: Land claims negotiations in the prairie provinces, particularly with treaty land entitlement, is a legal obligation owed to the First Nations as a result of unfulfilled treaties, particularly with the provision of adequate reserve land. In those instances, the provinces do recognize there is a legal obligation owed to the First Nations which have signed the treaties. They came to the table recognizing that.
With respect to the provision of lands with existing forest interests, certainly there are forest companies which have operations currently under way and licences and permits for harvesting purposes. We do provide financial assistance to those First Nations under the particular programs that I mentioned in my presentation. The Resource Access Negotiations Program provides funds to First Nations to negotiate for co-management arrangements with the companies in the area.
We also provide funds to First Nations if they wish to assess the impact of the development on the treaty rights that they do have, and they can raise these with the companies directly or with the provincial governments through their environmental assessment processes. They can also attempt to negotiate to mitigate the impact through their treaty rights.
There are several ways the department provides assistance to the First Nations aside from going to court or becoming involved in these extreme situations to which you refer.
Senator Taylor: You seem to put the aboriginal peoples in a catch-22 situation. You are, in effect, saying to the provinces that we have these treaty land claims. In addition, there are treaty rights supposedly for trapping and hunting that extend over an area outside the reserve, as has been proven a number of times in the Supreme Court. You say these rights are there and we recognize them, but then you turn the forestry over to the provinces to run. You put the aboriginals in a position where they are required to recognize the provincial government's authority in order to get what was theirs when Canada was created. In other words, it seems to me that you fathered the baby and now you have put it on the province's doorstep and told them that it is their responsibility. You tell the aboriginals to go see the doorstep on which you dropped them.
Mr. Hatfield: That situation does exist in the prairies. I will refer again to the 1930 Natural Resources Transfer Act which transferred the management and ownership of resources to the provinces.
Senator Taylor: However, it did not transfer those resources that fell under the agreements with aboriginal peoples.
Mr. Hatfield: The resources that were protected were the reserve resources.
Senator Taylor: Would you go so far as to say that aboriginal rights which have been approved by the Supreme Court since then and that lie outside the reserves also were retained by the federal government? They were not transferred to the provinces. They could not be transferred to the provinces.
Mr. Hatfield: Those resources have been transferred to the provinces, but the treaty rights are the rights of the First Nations which signed the treaty. Those were not transferred to the provinces. It is one that the federal government recognizes.
Senator Taylor: You say they were transferred, but what about hunting and the use of the forests outside the reserves? You have, in effect, tried to hand this over to the provinces. The least we should be doing is standing up to the provinces quite strongly for aboriginal rights. Our First Nations should not have to recognize the provinces before they can get their rights.
Mr. Hatfield: As a First Nations person who has treaty rights --
Senator Taylor: Where are you from?
Mr. Hatfield: Robertson Huron, which is around the Sudbury and Sault Ste. Marie territory.
Senator Taylor: You saw what the non-aboriginal did to the Sudbury landscape. It is the only place where you can make moon movies in Canada.
Mr. Hatfield: When I was in grade school, I saw the astronauts from NASA walk there to practise for the eventual moon walk.
Treaty rights are recognized by the federal government and are able to be exercised off-reserve. With respect to hunting, First Nations have the right to hunt for sustenance purposes, as well as to fish. The provinces have recognized the treaty rights of First Nations people in those specific areas.
Senator Taylor: The provincial governments have funded forestry development agreements. The Alberta government just forgave a $234 million loan to Millar Western because they said they could not pay it. Up near Athabasca, Louisiana Pacific missed making an interest payment on their loan. Times are rough. Their loan was much more; about $350 million. Those are substantial sums going into the non-native sector. Some people would say those loans are helping to pillage and rape our forests, but the fact is that you have given huge economic subsidies to these people. Yet when you talk about the subsidies you have given to the First Nations to help them develop in the forestry industry, they are a mere pittance compared to what you have given to the Japanese capitalists and others who have hit Canada.
What long-term program do you have in mind? Do you have something that native business people can aspire to in order to help them manage their forests?
In a Métis colony in Alberta, they practise horse logging. The trees will eventually disappear even under horse logging, but it will take a lot longer than with the fancy big machines they use nowadays. As well, that type of logging employs more people.
Mr. Hatfield: The Resource Access Negotiation Program does provide funding to First Nations to enter into negotiations for co-management of timber harvesting with companies. In addition, we also have the First Nations Forestry Program. It provides funding to First Nations for economic development purposes. Should they wish to start forestry businesses, they have the opportunity to do so under the funding we provide.
I cannot comment on the amount of resourcing provided by the provincial governments to First Nations. I can only refer to the programs we provide under the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. It may be that First Nations could access the Aboriginal Business Program under Industry Canada. In other words, the First Nations have access to other funding sources beyond the Department of Indian Affairs to become involved in economic development.
Senator Taylor: I touched on that to show that the provinces really are not carrying the spirit of the agreement in looking after First Nations' rights if they fund the non-First Nations in such glorious terms as hundreds of millions of dollars. I thought maybe the federal government or your department should be reminding them that if they are trying to co-manage, one thing to do would be to co-loan. Personally, I think their credit would be a lot better than some of the businesses they have been lending to.
To pay tribute to your department and the Saskatchewan government, the Meadow Lake area looked fairly good when the committee was there. However, there is still a bit of "noblesse oblige", as if they were inviting the First Nations people in. They were there and it was their right to be joint owners. Perhaps I am being too fussy.
Senator Spivak would never forgive me if I did not ask this next question. When we were in Manitoba, it was evident that many First Nations people still live in the wooded area of Northern Manitoba. Yet, no concessions have been given to the people of the First Nations. The land appeared to be overcommitted.
Did the federal government or the Department of Indian Affairs try to negotiate with the provincial government of Manitoba in the last five or six years to see that certain lands were set aside for the First Nations?
Mr. Hatfield: I cannot comment on the last five or six years. However, I can refer to the treaty land entitlement negotiations that have been in progress in Manitoba. The provincial government is at the table, as well as the First Nations who have outstanding treaty land entitlements. They have discussed the accessing of free and clear provincial Crown land and Crown land that has existing forest company interests. I can think of two companies: Repap and Louisiana Pacific. One of those companies was attempting to expand its timber harvesting area. Minister Irwin wrote to the Minister of the Environment, who at that time was Minister Copps, expressing concern about additional interests being given to a company when treaty land entitlements were outstanding that involved lands required by the First Nations.
We have been engaged to that extent. I believe we also made a presentation to the provincial environment panel on the Louisiana Pacific timber harvest area.
Senator Taylor: Speaking of that area, are you aware of whether the forestry developers or the provincial government in Manitoba have ever paid any compensation to First Nations persons for losing their trap lines to timber development?
Mr. Hatfield: I cannot recall if that has been undertaken by the provincial government with respect to the loss of a fur trap-line. I do know in land claims settlements that if a trap-line is affected by an area that would be going to reserve, they would look at compensation to the trapper himself or herself for losing the trap line to a land claims settlement.
Senator Taylor: Bear in mind that we agreed that the Constitution more or less implies hunting and fishing rights outside the reserves.
Mr. Hatfield: Yes.
Senator Taylor: Our native people were doing that long before most of these lumber or pulp companies were a gleam in some corporate eye. They were at it a long time ago.
Are you aware of any other compensation that might have been paid to the people of the First Nations who lost their trap lines in non-reserve or possible non-reserve areas in provinces other than Alberta or Saskatchewan?
Mr. Hatfield: No, I am not, senator.
The Chair: I note that the Canadian Forest Service administered the Indian Lands Forestry Program for 12 years, from 1984 to 1996. That program, I understand it, has been replaced now by the First Nations Forestry Program; is that correct?
Mr. Hatfield: That is correct.
The Chair: According to your presentation, Mr. Hatfield, this program is to encourage forest-based economic development. What has taken place in this new forestry program in the past year?
Mr. Hatfield: This new program is just getting off the ground, so to speak. It has been a year. We are entering into our second year. It is one program that involves First Nations in administering the program.
There is a national committee, which also includes a representative from the National Aboriginal Forestry Association. Harry Bombay is the executive-director and sits on an interim basis with us. He looks at the budgetary allocation.
In terms of structure, there are regional management committees in most if not all of the regions. They include representation from First Nations which are actively involved in the forestry area. Part of the mandate of those regional management committees is the allocation of resources to First Nations which submit projects for support. The projects that have been submitted are reviewed by these regional management committees, and they provide funding within their budgets to support First Nations forestry activity, which could include a local sawmill or entering into agreements with off-reserve companies for economic development purposes.
The Chair: We travelled to Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba in November. It seems to me we just heard of one co-management venture. In this forestry program, you are not thinking of a co-management venture, are you? This deals more with First Nations issues?
Mr. Hatfield: The program will allow for co-management of forestry. In addition, the other program I mentioned, the Resource Access Negotiation Program, will fund First Nations who present proposals in the forestry area. It will also look at funding regarding co-management of that particular resource. It is almost like the First Nations have access to two programs to look at co-management in forestry and other resource areas.
The Chair: I notice that on page 3 at paragraph 6 you state:
Canada's governments and the forest industry are initiating forest certification processes in response to potential boycotts in some markets because of Canada's forest practices.
When we were in the three western provinces, we were told that there are not in fact any forest certification programs in place. Have some of these forest certification programs been initiated since then?
Mr. Peter Wyse, Manager, Natural Resources, Environment and Natural Resources Directorate, Lands and Environment Branch, Lands and Trust Services, Industry and Northern Affairs Canada: It is my understanding that the certification has not yet been put in place in a formal way. Stage one is to develop certification criteria. I believe there will be some announcements in that area, probably in the summer. After the standards are in place, the requirement is to set up audit situations, audit standards and so on. As yet, nothing on the ground is happening, although I am told that some companies are, for example, paying a premium for wood that comes from forests which are believed to be well managed.
The Chair: Do you see an advantage in such programs for First Nations?
Mr. Wyse: In the future I am sure one of the criteria will relate to treaty and aboriginal rights. Market forces will certainly affect the extent to which those rights will be recognized. That will have a significant impact. I believe the participation of First Nations people in sustainable forest management will be another criterion, however that will be measured and defined. That will help significantly as well.
Senator Taylor: We may be wrongly getting the impression that First Nations input into certification would become fairly important in the future, particularly for buyers from Europe and a few other places, to ensure not only that it comes from a sustainable forest but that it is cut with the permission of First Nations people and with the idea of helping First Nations to get established. It would be important in marketing that timber.
It is my understanding -- or perhaps I am misunderstanding -- that one of the reasons certification is taking so long is that the present manufacturers are very worried about that, as are provincial governments. It may be that the federal government is pushing it with less enthusiasm than they should because they see it as an effective weapon for the First Nations to try to lever up some of their power in the future. In other words, certification may be dying.
Would you care to comment on that?
Mr. Wyse: I think certification is here to stay. I believe it will be established, although the question of the standards of certification may be an issue. I believe certification will happen, certainly.
Senator Taylor: Paragraph 2 on page 3 refers to First Nations access to off-reserve resources of the boreal forest.
As was mentioned, there is no loan system set up to help them in the off-reserve lands, or are we just talking about the land claims? Will we see a MacMillan Bloedel of the Cree Nation around the corner somewhere?
Mr. Hatfield: The paragraph you referenced is in relation to the treaty land entitlements and the comprehensive claims that exist.
Senator Taylor: That would also apply to the second last paragraph where you say that the department is engaged in a number of processes which may ultimately increase claims over forest land. There again you would be speaking of land claims?
Mr. Hatfield: That is correct, senator.
The Chair: In your presentation, you outlined very ably the various programs that are in place. I am interested to know what other policies and programs are needed now to address the interests of the aboriginal peoples in relation to the forest lands. What additional policies and programs should be put in place? What should we be contemplating?
Mr. Hatfield: For the existing programs that we have, I referred to the First Nations Forestry Program. Through that program, we have a national management committee, as well as regional management committees. Those committees have representation from First Nations, both from the National Aboriginal Forestry Association and from First Nations who are in the forest industry business, so to speak. Those committees allow First Nations to put forth their positions with respect to forest projects and policy. I have attended national meetings of this organization with representatives from the Canadian Forestry Services. We do discuss the program and the policies as well.
Under the existing processes, First Nations do have an opportunity to present their views on the kinds of policies and programs that we should have.
Mr. Wyse: We have put in place programs to help First Nations to get access to the off-reserve forest through co-management and other mechanisms. In addition, some provinces are setting up regimes through which First Nations can get access to the timber.
Some communities have arrived at the initial stage where they now have access to the timber. They are finding they now need dollars to set up the manufacturing enterprises that use the timber. We are starting to get requests for help in funding some of these manufacturing enterprises. As you know, logging is only the start of the forestry process. We are getting some requests for large amounts of funds.
The Chair: Are these funds available under some of these programs?
Mr. Wyse: The funds are not available under the programs I have outlined.
The Chair: Additional moneys would be required then.
Mr. Aubin, would you like to comment?
Mr. Gilbert Aubin, Forestry Advisor, Environment and Renewable Resources Directorate, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada: I operate only in the Yukon and, so far, you have been south of the 60th parallel.
The Chair: We will move to the Yukon right now.
Mr. Aubin: In the Yukon, the First Nations have a good relationship because they did sign an umbrella final agreement in 1993. That gives them quite a bit of land with which to start. Only four nations have signed agreements so far, but the balance of the land is still kept for them. It is just a question, in some cases, of overlap between one First Nation and another. Also they must determine exactly which land they want to have.
In addition to that, in the umbrella final agreement there are committees set up, one of which is called the Renewable Resource Council. Such councils provide advice to the First Nation itself concerning the settlement land, but they also provide advice to the federal government and the Yukon government regarding the non-settlement lands. It concerns the traditional land and, if you like, the total area of the Yukon is covered by that once all is settled and the agreements have been signed.
In that sense, they do have a lot of input into decision-making concerning not only forestry but also wildlife and things like that.
The Chair: So they are a step ahead of the others?
Senator Taylor: They may be three or four steps ahead.
Mr. Aubin: Yes. The only company in the Yukon which has a long-term agreement, if you can call it that, is a First Nation company called Kaska. It is the only company in the Yukon with a timber harvesting agreement because no one, so far, has been able to get a sawmill operation going up there. There are very few saw mills. The cutting permits are also very small, except for the permit for Kaska which has been harvesting quite extensively for the past five years now.
By the way, Kaska bought a company up there. Three companies went bankrupt in the 1980s and Kaska bought the last one out.
Also, last year, a very good training program got off the ground. It will train about 30 First Nations people over a two-year period. The course starts in B.C. in a school where the technical expertise is taught. Then the students go out in the field for on-the-job training. Once that is finished, they are certified and can work anywhere in Alberta, B.C. or the Yukon.
The Chair: What happens to the lumber that they cut?
Mr. Aubin: Are you referring to lumber cut by Kaska?
The Chair: Yes.
Mr. Aubin: Some of that wood goes into building round-wood houses in the Yukon, but most of it goes down to B.C. There are no mills to speak of in the Yukon. Until 1994, there was hardly any wood cut up there because of transportation difficulties. Suddenly there was a big demand for wood in the United States and B.C. That put pressure on the forests of the Yukon. Although the price of saw logs in the Yukon has dropped, this pressure from B.C. and Alberta will continue to grow.
In a sense, it was nice that they were not caught up in the problems of a big forestry industry until now. The biggest industry up there is tourism, not forest operations.
The Chair: What is the name of that company?
Mr. Aubin: It is a Liard First Nation company, Kaska.
The Chair: That company bought out other smaller companies?
Mr. Aubin: It bought out the only company that had a sawmill that made sense up there.
The Chair: Where did Kaska get the money to purchase this mill?
Mr. Aubin: In the agreement that was signed with Northern Affairs was the provision that $2 per cubic meter that was sold be put in a trust fund for a mill. So they already have a little bit of money put aside for a mill. In addition, they are trying to find a partner. They have had a hard time finding a partner, probably because they had a partner at one time and it did not work out. Due to the pressures that were coming on, the partner dropped out.
The Chair: I was interested in the amount of area of the Yukon territory that is covered by boreal forest. You said it is 60 per cent?
Mr. Aubin: Yes.
The Chair: Is this virgin forest? Has it ever been cut?
Mr. Aubin: Apart from a small section in the southeast, and another one that I will get back to later, it has never been cut. It has burned, though. It burns in a shorter rotation than anywhere else because that is semi-arid country. The high mountains to the southwest stop the rains from coming in. It rains about one-third of what it does here. It is very nice country, but the forest burns. It will burn in 50- to 75-year-cycles. One hundred years is the outer limit, except in the most southerly areas.
Another factor affecting the forests was the gold rush. During the gold rush all the forest along the Yukon River was cut for lumber to build boats. That was all nice white spruce and it was all cut. That forest has all come back now after about 100 years, which shows us what nature can do.
That is a very small section. You would not see it on a map. That wood was cut all the way through, but it has now grown back up. I do not know if it has grown back the way it was or if the animals that were there came back. We only know that the forest grew back on its own.
Senator Taylor: I think that the Yukon, as you say, was well ahead of the rest of Canada in handling their forests, and certainly with respect to First Nations.
There is a statement on page 4 of your brief about the four-year Saskatchewan co-management initiative fund with an annual budget of $600,000. How much of that is federal funding?
Mr. Hatfield: It is all federal funds.
Senator Taylor: From our tours of the pulp and timber cutting operations in northern Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, there was not much doubt that First Nations people were hewing the wood and hauling the water, and First Nations women were represented in employment in office work, but there was a disturbing lack of First Nations men further up the income scale. Are you monitoring that at all to see where the job fall-out is?
Mr. Hatfield: I do not believe we monitor that.
Senator Taylor: There are not too many First Nation chiefs in the mills. As a matter of fact, there were not too many Canadians.
The Chair: On page 1 you say that almost 500 First Nation communities are located in boreal forest regions. How many First Nation communities are there?
Mr. Hatfield: There are over 600 First Nation bands.
The Chair: Thank you very much for coming this evening. We really appreciated your presentation.
The committee adjourned.