Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Finance
Issue 31 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Tuesday, March 23, 1999
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance, to which was referred Bill C-65, to amend the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act, met this day at 10:45 a.m. to give consideration to the bill.
Senator Terry Stratton (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: I call this meeting to order. The first item on our agenda is clause-by-clause study of Bill C-65. We deliberately did not do this last Thursday because we had written a letter to the provinces asking if they wanted to have any input.
I called the Minister of Finance of the province of Manitoba. He was aware of the tradeoffs in the bill and had no comment.
We received a request to appear from Prince Edward Island. However, due to the fact that this bill must be passed this week, we told them that there was not time for them to appear and asked that they submit a document expressing their concerns. We have not received that document and are assuming that none will be forthcoming.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to proceed with clause-by-clause study of the bill?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Shall clause 1 to clause 6 inclusive carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Shall we report the bill?
Senator Fraser: Yes.
The Chairman: Thank you. That concludes our official business.
As you are aware, we have outstanding business to do with the subcommittee; that is, the subcommittee should have terms of reference with respect to the Main Estimates.
Our clerk, Mr. Robert, has handouts to give you regarding that.
Senator Fraser: Mr. Chairman, is Senator Cools aware of this material?
The Chairman: We gave her the terms of reference for review.
Senator Fraser: When was that?
The Chairman: That was about a week ago.
Senator Fraser: She is the one who had particular concerns about this matter.
The Chairman: Yes, she did.
Senator Fraser: I would not want to compound those concerns.
The Chairman: I do not disagree. However, we have a problem. When is the next meeting of this committee?
Senator Fraser: Is it not tomorrow?
The Chairman: No. Do we have a reason to schedule a meeting? We would have to schedule a meeting to deal with the terms of reference and the budget of the subcommittee. There is no meeting scheduled for tomorrow. Our other normal meeting time is Thursday morning, at which time you and I, Senator Fraser, are in a session all day. That kills the opportunity to deal with these two issues.
Senator Fraser: I do not believe that anyone has consulted with Senator Cools about this. Since she was the one who had serious concerns the last time, I would be grateful if we could have a short meeting tomorrow.
The Chairman: That is up to the committee. Tomorrow I have a conference call at 5:30 p.m. and then we have a dinner for retiring Senator Phillips at 6:30 p.m.
Senator Fraser: Senator Cools really would like to be present and I should really like her to be present.
The Chairman: I had expected her here this morning.
Senator Fraser: I understand that. She suggests that you have a meeting of the steering committee of this committee this afternoon -- that is, yourself, herself and Senator Ferretti Barth. I gather that it would not have to take long.
The Chairman: What is the purpose of that?
Senator Fraser: To discuss future business.
The Chairman: The Estimates have been passed by the subcommittee so they have to pass the main committee. We have to pass the budget for the main committee and we have the terms of reference.
My understanding is that the purpose of the steering committee is to discuss future business.
Senator Fraser: The subcommittee is, if you will, future business.
The Chairman: That would take two meetings: a meeting of the steering committee this afternoon plus another meeting of the full committee because the terms of reference and the budget must be passed by the Finance Committee. Why would we not do it in one meeting?
Senator Fraser: Because Senator Cools cannot be here now.
The Chairman: I appreciate that, but I should like to do it in one meeting rather than two.
Senator Fraser: I understand that, but I cannot produce her out of thin air. I am very sorry. The object is not to complicate life.
The Chairman: Remember that we must have our budget for the Finance Committee to the Committee on Internal Economy by about April 15. Senator Fraser, you and I are out of the country from April 10 to April 17, so we have a fairly significant problem.
Senator Fraser: I understand that. Perhaps the three of you could have a steering committee meeting tomorrow morning.
The Chairman: Why would we have two meetings?
Senator Fraser: I cannot read the mind of Senator Cools, but she is the vice-chair of the committee and a member of the steering committee, and she asks that the steering committee --
The Chairman: She wants to deal with Main Estimates for next year this week and there is no room in the schedule for that, as we have seen. That is the problem.
Senator Fraser: I am not on the steering committee, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: I understand that. The problem is the fact that Senator Cools is not here. The difficulty is the management of the process that we go through every year in this committee. We deal with the Main Estimates for the current fiscal year. As of next week, we are into a new fiscal year. We normally deal with the Main Estimates for the current fiscal year in April and May because we have to select, from this huge volume, the departments we want to examine. We cannot deal with the whole thing. It is impossible. If the government is going to spend $151 billion, we should devote the attention to it that it deserves -- at least a couple of meetings. I hope that we would spend a couple of meetings dealing with those Estimates.
Treasury Board officials inform me that historically we have done that in April and May, and that the Finance Minister appears. The only exception to that was last year. The Finance Minister was not available in April and May and he appeared in the last week of March.
As I said, we deal with the Estimates in April and May. We usually get Supplementary Estimates (A) in November. We usually get Supplementary Estimates (B) and (C) in March. We deal with them together and submit two separate reports at the same time.
We then have the interim supply bill. That bill this year is Bill C-74. It is coming to the Senate this week. It deals with the first three months of the next fiscal year. That does not even come before this committee.
Then, around June 9, we deal with another supply bill for the next nine months. So we have two interim supply bills: one that we deal with in April for the interim supply for the first quarter, and then one in June for the last three-quarters.
That is the process for this committee. The assistant secretary from Treasury Board, Rick Neville, is willing to give us a little presentation on the process so that we understand it. We keep getting new members on this committee who do not understand the process and there is a great deal of confusion every year at this time.
Mr. Neville would also prepare a document for new senators on the committee so that they understand the committee's work.
There could be a meeting of this committee on Thursday to deal with those issues, including the main budget for this committee for the next fiscal year, as well as the budget for the subcommittee and the terms of reference of the subcommittee. If we fail to deal with it on Thursday, we will have a major problem.
Senator Fraser: We could have a meeting at 8:00 in the morning.
The Chairman: I do not care when the meeting is, but we would have to do it at 8:00 a.m. because there is virtually no other time.
Senator Fraser: Our briefing starts at 9:00 a.m.
The Chairman: Yes. I just do not have time tomorrow.
[Translation]
Senator Ferretti Barth: Since Senator Cools is a member of the subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, it would be to our advantage to have her here when we discuss future business. We could hold a meeting this afternoon.
[English]
The Chairman: Bill C-43 will come to the Senate this afternoon and we have to speak on it. That takes up the afternoon. I cannot leave the chamber because I am responsible for it on our side.If Senator Cools wanted to do that, why was not she here?
[Translation]
Senator Ferretti Barth: She was unexpectedly called away to another meeting because some members were absent. As you know, legislation respecting veterans benefits is currently under consideration and must be passed. This is very positive legislation as far as veterans are concerned. Her presence was required at that meeting because some members were absent. I thought that over the noon hour, we might have a short meeting.
[English]
The Chairman: Our caucus starts at 11:45. Then the Senate sits and I am responsible for this on our side. I also have to table Bills C-65 and C-43. So that looks after the afternoon until the Senate rises.
Tomorrow, my day is full. On Thursday at 9:00 a.m. we go into briefings.
Senator Fraser: Mr. Chairman, did you say that you have an appointment at 5:30 this afternoon?
The Chairman: If we are to arrange another meeting, it will have to be about 5:30 this afternoon or at 8:00 Thursday morning. There is just no time left on the schedule to have a long, drawn-out meeting.
Senator Fraser: We all have similar schedule problems.
The Chairman: I know. My concern is that we pay appropriate attention to next year's Estimates. I do not want to ram them through this week because there is no time left on the schedule to do a proper job.
Senator Fraser: I do not think anyone here wants to do anything but a proper job.
The Chairman: I understand that, but Senator Cools wanted to deal with those Estimates this week.
Senator Fraser: Would it be possible to have a steering committee meeting, which I assume would be brief, when the Senate rises at 5:00 p.m., for example?
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Fraser: That would enable us to have a short main committee meeting at 8:00 a.m. or 8:30 a.m. on Thursday morning.
The Chairman: It should be at 8:00 Thursday morning.
Senator Nolin: I assume that this committee will deal with its own budget this week?
The Chairman: Yes. That is what I am trying to get done.
Senator Nolin: We want all those budgets in before Easter.
Senator Fraser: I understand that.
Senator Nolin: I just want to ensure that you have time for that.
Senator Fraser: We all understand that but it is important for Senator Cools to be part of this. You know how much she cares about this committee. If she is not here, it is for good reason.
The Chairman: I will do as the committee would like. However, you must realize that you are cutting it extremely fine because if we are not successful on Thursday morning, as a result of this afternoon's successful steering committee meeting, we will have a fairly serious problem. It bothers me that we cannot deal with the simple procedural matters before us. We must approve two budgets and a terms of reference. In my experience on other committees, these things are essentially a slam dunk and they should have been dealt with some time ago. Now we are being put to the cliff. It is irresponsible to do that because we are faced with having to force a meeting at 8:00 a.m. on the last day we sit. That is risking severe problems.
Senator Fraser: I was keeping my timetable clear for the regularly scheduled meeting tomorrow afternoon. I did not know we would not be having it.
The Chairman: We thought we could deal with this this morning. There would then be no reason for this Senate committee to meet again until we come back in April. If we had dealt with the items on our plate today, we would have no reason to meet.
My advice is that you check with Senator Cools. I am available from when the Senate rises until about 7:45 this evening, and I am available at 8:00 Thursday morning. However, that is it, because we thought that we would be able to deal with all of this this morning.
Senator Ferretti Barth: It surprised us, too. We did not know that she would not be here.
The committee adjourned.