Proceedings of the Special Committee on
Bill C-20
Issue 7 - Minutes of Proceedings
OTTAWA, Monday, June 19, 2000
(11)
[English]
The Special Senate Committee on Bill C-20 met this day in room 505, Victoria Building, at 9:32 a.m., the Chair, the Honourable Joan Fraser presiding.
Members of the committee present: The Honourable Senators Beaudoin, Chalifoux, Christensen, Fraser, Furey, Kenny, Kinsella, Lynch-Staunton, Milne, Murray, P.C., Poulin and Sibbeston (12).
Other senators present: The Honourable Senators Finestone, P.C., Gauthier, Grafstein, Joyal, P.C., Kroft and Taylor (6).
In attendance: Mollie Dunsmuir and Brian O'Neal, Research Officer, Research Branch, Library of Parliament.
Also in attendance: The official reporters of the Senate.
WITNESSES:
As individuals:
Michael Behiels, Professor, Department of History, University of Ottawa;
John McEvoy, Professor of Law, University of New Brunswick;
Jean-Pierre Derriennic, Professor, Department of Political Science, Laval University.
Pursuant to the Order of Reference adopted in the Senate on Thursday, May 18, 2000, the committee continued its consideration of Bill C-20, An Act to give effect to the requirement for clarity as set out in the opinion of the Supreme Court of Canada in the Quebec Secession reference. (For full text of the Order of Reference please refer to Issue No. 1.)
The Chair made an opening statement.
Michael Behiels made a statement and answered questions.
Senator Joyal tabled a letter dated August 7, 1992, from Jean Chrétien, then Leader of the Opposition, to Prime Minister Brian Mulroney (exhibit No. 5700-2.36/C20-7 "1").
John McEvoy made a statement and answered questions.
Jean-Pierre Derriennic made a statement and answered questions.
At 12:28 p.m., the committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
ATTEST:
OTTAWA, Monday, June 19, 2000
(12)
[English]
The Special Senate Committee on Bill C-20 met this day in room 505, Victoria Building, at 1:34 p.m., the Chair, the Honourable Joan Fraser presiding.
Members of the committee present: The Honourable Senators Beaudoin, Bolduc, Chalifoux, Christensen, Fraser, Kenny Kinsella, Kroft, Lynch-Staunton, Milne, Murray, P.C., Nolin, Poulin and Sibbeston (14).
Other senators present: The Honourable Senators Cools, DeWare, Finestone, P.C., Gauthier, Grafstein, Joyal, P.C., Prud'homme, P.C., and Taylor (8).
In attendance: Mollie Dunsmuir and Brian O'Neal, Research Officer, Research Branch, Library of Parliament.
Also in attendance: The official reporters of the Senate.
APPEARING:
The Honourable Stéphane Dion, P.C., M.P., President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.
WITNESSES:
From the Department of Justice:
Mary E. Dawson, Q.C., Associate Deputy Minister, Constitutional Affairs.
From the Privy Council Office:
Mr. George Anderson, Deputy Minister, Intergovernmental Affairs;
Geoffroi Montpetit, Legislative Assistant to the President of the Privy Council and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.
Pursuant to the Order of Reference adopted in the Senate on Thursday, May 18, 2000, the committee continued its consideration of Bill C-20, An Act to give effect to the requirement for clarity as set out in the opinion of the Supreme Court of Canada in the Quebec Secession reference. (For full text of the Order of Reference please refer to Issue No. 1.)
The Chair made an opening statement.
Stéphane Dion made a statement and answered questions.
Senator Taylor tabled a document regarding different powers given to the Senate and the House of Commons (exhibit No. 5700-2.36/C20-7 "2").
The Chair repeated for the committee the names of groups and/or persons who had submitted briefs or substantive letters to the committee but had not appeared. These are as follows: Premier Binns of P.E.I.; Joseph Facal, Canadian Intergovernmental Affairs Minister, Province of Quebec; Alliance Québec; Atikamekw Sipi; Makivik Corp.; Yves-Marie Morrissette; Michael Seymour; Patrice Fortin and David Gussow.
At 3:47 p.m., the committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
ATTEST:
OTTAWA, Monday, June 19, 2000
(13)
[English]
The Special Senate Committee on Bill C-20 met this day in room 505, Victoria Building, at 5:08 p.m., the Chair, the Honourable Joan Fraser presiding.
Members of the committee present: The Honourable Senators Beaudoin, Bolduc, Chalifoux, Christensen, Cordy, Fraser, Kenny, Kinsella, Kroft, Lynch-Staunton, Milne, Murray, P.C., Nolin, Poulin and Sibbeston (15).
Other senators present: The Honourable Senators Cools, DeWare, Grafstein, Joyal, P.C., Kirby, Prud'homme, P.C., and Roche (7).
In attendance: Mollie Dunsmuir and Brian O'Neal, Research Officer, Research Branch, Library of Parliament.
Also in attendance: The official reporters of the Senate.
Pursuant to the Order of Reference adopted in the Senate on Thursday, May 18, 2000, the committee continued its consideration of Bill C-20, An Act to give effect to the requirement for clarity as set out in the opinion of the Supreme Court of Canada in the Quebec Secession reference. (For full text of the Order of Reference please refer to Issue No. 1.)
The Chair made an opening statement.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator John Lynch-Staunton -- That clause-by-clause deliberation on Bill C-20 be not now proceeded with, in order for the committee to continue to hear witnesses and that the committee report the bill back to the Senate no earlier than September 12, 2000.
After debate, the question being put on the motion, the committee divided and the names being called, they were taken down as follows:
YEAS: The Honourable Senators Beaudoin, Bolduc, Kinsella, Lynch-Staunton, Murray, P.C., and Nolin -- 6.
NAYS: The Honourable Senators Chalifoux, Christensen, Cordy, Fraser, Kenny, Kroft, Milne, Poulin and Sibbeston -- 9.
Therefore, the motion was defeated.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Milne -- That the committee complete clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-20.
The question being put on the motion, it was agreed, on division.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Milne -- That the title stand.
The question being put on the motion, it was agreed.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Milne -- That the preamble carry.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Kinsella -- That the preamble be deleted.
The Chair ruled the motion in amendment out of order, as the proper course is to vote against the preamble standing part of the bill (Beauchesne S. 698(6)).
The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved -- That Bill C-20 be amended in the preamble on page 2, line 10, by replacing the words "elected representatives" to read "political actors".
The question being put on the motion in amendment, the committee divided and the names being called, they were taken down as follows:
YEAS: The Honourable Senators Beaudoin, Bolduc, Kinsella, Lynch-Staunton, Murray, P.C., and Nolin -- 6.
NAYS: The Honourable Senators Chalifoux, Christensen, Cordy, Fraser, Kenny, Kroft, Milne, Poulin and Sibbeston -- 9.
Therefore, the motion in amendment was defeated.
The question being put on the main motion, the committee divided and the names being called, they were taken down as follows:
YEAS: The Honourable Senators Chalifoux, Christensen, Cordy, Fraser, Kenny, Kroft, Milne, Poulin and Sibbeston -- 9.
NAYS: The Honourable Senators Beaudoin, Bolduc, Kinsella, Lynch-Staunton, Murray, P.C., and Nolin -- 6.
Therefore, the motion was adopted.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Milne -- That Clause 1 carry.
The Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton moved -- That Bill C-20 be amended in Clause 1 on page 2, lines 35 and 39, page 3, lines 10, 15, 20, 21, 25, 28, 29 and 35, and on page 4, lines 3, 8 and 9, by replacing the word "province" with the words "province of Quebec".
After debate, the question being put on the motion in amendment, the committee divided and the names being called, they were taken down as follows:
YEAS: The Honourable Senators Beaudoin, Bolduc, Kinsella, Lynch-Staunton, Murray, P.C., and Nolin -- 6.
NAYS: The Honourable Senators Chalifoux, Christensen, Cordy, Fraser, Kenny, Kroft, Milne, Poulin and Sibbeston -- 9.
Therefore, the motion in amendment was defeated.
The question being put on the main motion, the committee divided and the names being called, they were taken down as follows:
YEAS: The Honourable Senators Chalifoux, Christensen, Cordy, Fraser, Kenny, Kroft, Milne and Poulin -- 8.
NAYS: The Honourable Senators Beaudoin, Bolduc, Kinsella, Lynch-Staunton, Murray, P.C., and Nolin -- 6.
Therefore, the motion was adopted.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Milne -- That Clause 2 carry.
The question being put on the motion, the committee divided and the names being called, they were taken down as follows:
YEAS: The Honourable Senators Chalifoux, Christensen, Cordy, Fraser, Kenny, Kroft, Milne and Poulin -- 8.
NAYS: The Honourable Senators Beaudoin, Bolduc, Kinsella, Lynch-Staunton, Murray, P.C., and Nolin -- 6.
Therefore, the motion was adopted.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Milne -- That Clause 3 carry.
The Honourable Senator Murray moved -- That Bill C-20 be amended in Clause 3(1) on page 5, by adding, after the word "provinces", at line 23, the following:
", the representatives of the aboriginal peoples in the province whose government proposed the referendum on secession,"
The question being put on the motion in amendment, the committee divided and the names being called, they were taken down as follows:
YEAS: The Honourable Senators Beaudoin, Bolduc, Kinsella, Lynch-Staunton, Murray, P.C. and Nolin -- 6.
NAYS: The Honourable Senators Chalifoux, Christensen, Cordy, Fraser, Kenny, Kroft, Milne, Poulin and Sibbeston -- 9.
Therefore, the motion in amendment was defeated.
The question being put on the main motion, the committee divided and the names being called, they were taken down as follows:
YEAS: The Honourable Senators Chalifoux, Christensen, Cordy, Fraser, Kenny, Kroft, Milne, Poulin and Sibbeston -- 9.
NAYS: The Honourable Senators Beaudoin, Bolduc, Kinsella, Lynch-Staunton, Murray, P.C., and Nolin -- 6.
Therefore, the motion was adopted.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Milne -- That the title carry.
The question being put on the motion, the committee divided and the names being called, they were taken down as follows:
YEAS: The Honourable senators Chalifoux, Christensen, Cordy, Fraser, Kenny, Kroft, Milne, Poulin and Sibbeston -- 9.
NAYS: The Honourable Senators Beaudoin, Bolduc, Kinsella, Lynch-Staunton, Murray, P.C., and Nolin -- 6.
Therefore, the motion was adopted.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Milne -- That Bill C-20 carry.
The question being put on the motion, it was agreed, on division.
It was agreed, on division, -- That the Chair report Bill C-20 to the Senate without amendment.
At 7:40 p.m., the committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
ATTEST:
Heather Lank
Clerk of the Committee