Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Finance
Issue 1 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Thursday, November 18, 1999
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 10:10 a.m. to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Mr. Luc Bégin, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, we have a quorum. As clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am ready to receive motions to that effect. Are there any motions?
Senator Cools: Honourable senators, it gives me great pleasure to put forward the name of our esteemed colleague, Senator Murray. Having said that, I move that the members of the committee elect Senator Murray to the position of Chairman of the National Finance Committee.
Senator Ferretti Barth: I second that motion.
Mr. Bégin: Are there any other nominations?
Senator Cools: I move that we close nominations.
Mr. Bégin: It was moved by the Honourable Senator Cools, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, that the Honourable Senator Murray be Chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Bégin: Carried.
I invite the Honourable Senator Murray to take the chair.
Senator Cools: Let the record show that this vote to elect Senator Murray was unanimous.
Senator Lowell Murray, P.C. (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, at the outset, I would thank Senator Cools for having placed my name before the committee for nomination.
[Translation]
I want to thank all of my colleagues for putting their faith in me.
[English]
This was the first committee I joined when I became a senator 20 years ago this fall. I served a happy apprenticeship under the distinguished chairmanship of our former colleague Senator Doug Everett of Manitoba. A few years ago, I spent a year or more as chairman of this committee. We have all admired the excellent work that was done by Senator Stratton who, happily, is still a member of the committee, and who has been chairman of this committee for the past several years. I speak not only of his work as chairman of the committee but also his work as chairman of the Subcommittee on Canada's Emergency and Disaster Preparedness, about which I have no doubt we will be hearing more later.
Honourable senators, it is my duty now to invite nominations for the position of deputy chair of this committee.
Senator Bolduc: I move that Senator Cools be appointed Deputy Chair.
Senator Ferretti Barth: I second the motion.
The Chairman: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Bolduc, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, that Senator Cools be Deputy Chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Honourable senators, you will find in front of you a series of routine motions. Any or all of them are open for debate.
The chair will entertain the following motion:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair and one other member of the Committee to be designated after the usual consultation;
That the Subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the Committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and schedule hearings; and
That the Subcommittee report its decisions to the Committee.
Is there a mover for that motion?
Senator Cools: Honourable senators, I so move. I would also move that the one other member of the Subcommittee on Agenda be Senator Marisa Ferretti Barth.
The Chairman: You have heard the motion, honourable senators.
[Translation]
Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion carried.
[English]
The chair would now entertain the following motion:
That the committee print 250 copies of its proceedings; and that the Chair be authorized to adjust this number to meet demand.
Senator Bolduc: Before we proceed with that motion, the third paragraph of the last motion that we just approved included the words, "...the subcommittee report its decisions to the committee." Would those be decisions or propositions?
Senator Cools: We should take a look at that.
Senator Stratton: That matter has already been decided.
Senator Bolduc: I would repeat my question. The last paragraph says that "...the subcommittee report its decisions to the committee." Is it a decision or a proposition?
The Chairman: The words is "decisions" because in the previous paragraph it says: "That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee." It goes without saying, I believe, that, if the majority of the committee objects strenuously to anything we have done, they can overrule us.
Senator Cools: I understand that. I thought Senator Bolduc was making a different point.
The Chairman: We are now at motion No. 4:
That the committee print 250 copies of its proceedings and that the Chair be authorized to adjust this number to meet demand.
Do I have a mover for that motion?
Senator Mahovlich: I so move.
[Translation]
Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[English]
The chair will now entertain the following motion:
[Translation]
That, pursuant to rule 89, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a representative of the government and a representative from the opposition are present.
[English]
Senator Cools: A member of the opposition simply must be present. That is important.
Senator Bolduc: Is this a new type of motion? I do not remember this being moved previously.
Senator Stratton: We have had this before.
The Chairman: It has always been understood that, without a quorum, we can hear witnesses and hold a meeting, but we cannot make decisions.
Senator Cools: That should be clarified. The authorization is to hold meetings. The authority is in the case of a situation where the chairman is present at a meeting and a witness is ready to proceed but committee members have not yet arrived. It allows the chairman to proceed and the witness to begin prior to our arrival. It is not intended to replace a properly functioning meeting with a quorum.
The Chairman: Is it the pleasure of the meeting to adopt the said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
The chairman will entertain a motion:
That, pursuant to rule 104, the Chair be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee during the last session.
Now that I am chairman, it will be my responsibility to report the expenses that the committee incurred during the last session.
Senator Stratton: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
The Chair will entertain a motion:
That the Committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the Committee;
That the Chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject-matters of bills and estimates as are referred to it.
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the Chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
Senator Ferretti Barth: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
The chair will now entertain the following motion:
[Translation]
That, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred on the Chair or in the Chair's absence, the Deputy Chair, and
That, pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and Guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for accounts payable by the Committee be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and the Clerk of the Committee.
[English]
Do I have a mover for that motion?
Senator Ferretti Barth: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
The Chair will entertain a motion:
That the Committee empower the steering committee to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the Committee; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
1) determine whether any member of the Committee is on "official business" for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
2) consider any member of the Committee to be on "official business" if that member is: (a) attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of the Committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the Committee.
Is there a mover for that motion?
Senator Mahovlich: I so move.
Senator Cools: I wish to discuss this motion. Is this a new proposal?
The Chairman: This is Item No. 9 on the agenda. Senator Stratton, can you help us?
Senator Stratton: Not really. It may have been modified with respect to the Journals of the Senate as per June 1998, but that has been fairly standard in the past. We have not used it. I have just come from the Agriculture Committee meeting, where members adopted the same motion. This covers an instance where the committee does not travel but someone travels on behalf of the committee. This is rarely used. I have not seen it used yet.
Senator Cools: I have no doubt that the same motion is currently before every committee. However, my question was whether or not this particular item is totally new to all the committees now. I have no recollection of this particular item in these routine documents before. However, I could be wrong.
The Chairman: Senator Cools is questioning the first paragraph, is that correct?
Senator Cools: My question relates to the entire motion. I think we should discuss it. Perhaps members are quite agreeable to this, but we are asking that the subcommittee be authorized to determine whether or not a member of the committee is on official business. Perhaps we could hold this particular item over and vote on it at a later date. The authority that is being sought here is for the steering committee to make a determination as to whether or not any member of the committee is on official business for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy. That is very important.
The Chairman: It is qualified by the next paragraph. The next paragraph tells us that we could determine that member is "on "official business" if that member is: a) attending a function, event or meeting relating to the work of the committee; or b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee."
I do not believe we could determine that the senator was on official business related to this committee if the senator was simply at home reading old Hansards or getting ready for the next meeting. We are told how we are to define "public business" in this paragraph.
Senator Cools: I understand all that. The question is not whether we are being told, the question is whether or not we should be making the determination.
The Chairman: Fair enough. How do other members feel about that?
Senator Stratton: The authorization must come from the committee. Before either an individual committee member or a researcher is allowed to travel, approval must come from this committee. It is moot to debate this point because, before that senator can travel, he must seek permission from the committee. The researcher must also be instructed by the committee to travel.
Senator Cools: This motion does not specifically speak to committee travel, it covers everything. It is a wide-sweeping motion. If it dealt only with committee travel, that would be a different matter. However, it does not say that. It goes on to sweep with a much wider brush. It states that any member of the committee -- that is, this subcommittee -- will make a determination for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, as to whether or not any member of this committee is on official business. It does not say "if they are travelling with a committee." There would be no need for discussion if it clearly stated that we were travelling with the committee. It says "attending a function" anywhere or at any time. That is to say, any event, any meeting or spends any time related to the work of the committee. How is the issue of being related to the work of the committee determined?
Senator Stratton: By the subcommittee.
Senator Cools: That is the whole point. Does the subcommittee want that power; or should the subcommittee have that power?
The Chairman: I take it that the status quo is that if a colleague states that he or she is on official business relating to the work of a committee, then the Senate accepts that on the honour system. I am told that this motion is before all the standing committees. Someone is trying to insert some due process into the equation so that a senator who states that he or she is absent from the Senate because he or she is on public business related to the work of the committee will be required to persuade the committee that that is the case. We are told here how we are to define "public business" for the purpose of the committee.
Senator Cools places a legitimate question before us. Do we want to be invested with that authority?
Senator Cools: Precisely. Do we want to be chased down by the Ottawa Citizen?
The Chairman: It is a question of whether or not due process is required. Perhaps this is a matter to raise in the Rules Committee or elsewhere. Obviously, someone believes that due process is required.
Senator Cools: Often these items mysteriously appear on documents before us and we are told that they are routine. Perhaps we should make inquiries about this. I would like to know where this came from.
Senator Bolduc: Our committee discusses public finance, which covers a lot of programs. If I am asked by the Institute of Public Administration in Quebec City to appear at a conference on CIDA, or something like that, and the date and time of that conference coincides with a committee meeting, may I attend that conference? I suspect the answer is that I may attend the conference because the committee studied the CIDA programs last year and heard from Madam Labelle at two or three meetings. Is that related to the work of the committee?
The Chairman: To take the example that you have placed before us, Senator Bolduc, if you were speaking to the Institute of Public Administration in Quebec City, I believe that would qualify as "public business." You would not have to invoke your membership on this committee.
Senator Cools: That is right.
Senator Bolduc: That would be official business, but it may not necessarily be related to the present work of the committee.
Senator Cools: That would be official business or what we routinely call "public business." That is the case for any speaking engagement that a senator must attend. The real question is: What is the difference between ordinary public business and ordinary official business and the functions, events and meetings that are related to the work of the committee?
Senator Bolduc: If I were asked to give a lecture or a conference on the public finance of the federal government, how would that be classified?
The Chairman: That would qualify as public business. However, if you were invited to discuss your experience as a director of various private corporations, that would not be public business.
Senator Stratton: On occasion, we may want to send a researcher to a conference. For example, in agriculture the debate was whether or not we would send researchers to the opening round of the WTO in Seattle. That is the kind of instance whereby permission would have to be obtained. A senator who wants to go to the WTO in Seattle has every right to do that on public business -- that is, if he is granted permission to travel to the United States. That would be an instance where that is covered.
The Chairman: As well, honourable senators, we might want to send an ad hoc committee out to a community to review a matter.
However, if you are uncomfortable with this motion, we can sever it and pass part of it. The issue being debated is the delegation to the steering committee of the responsibility to determine whether a member of the committee is on official business for the purpose of the committee. No one has told me, but I suspect that the authorities somewhere -- perhaps the leadership -- are trying to put four corners around the phrase "public business" and are attempting to invent some due process. I am sure this committee will not want to be odd man out. I am sure we will want to cooperate with the Senate and with the other committees. Nevertheless, if you will be more comfortable, may I suggest that we sever the motion?
Senator Cools, I put to you the first part of the motion, namely, that the committee delegate to the steering committee the power to designate one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee. That is an old motion. We can agree to that part of the motion and we can table the other part of the motion until we have had an opportunity to look into it. I may place it before you at our next meeting.
Senator Cools: Why do we not hold the whole motion over for one more meeting? It would be easier if we could agree to pass the motion in tact.
The Chairman: It is unlikely in the next week that we will want to assign anyone to travel.
Senator Cools: I suggest we hold Item No. 9 and vote on the motion in its entirety later.
The Chairman: Senator Mahovlich, do you agree to withdraw that motion for the time being?
Senator Mahovlich: Yes.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item No. 9 will stand on the agenda then.
Let us continue.
[Translation]
With respect to witnesses travelling expenses, we have the following motion:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the Chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
[English]
Senator Ferretti Barth: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
The Chair will entertain a motion:
That the Clerk be authorized, in consultation with the Chairman, to order food, et cetera, whenever a committee meeting is scheduled to extend into or over a meal period.
Would a member move that motion?
Senator Cools: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
The next motion deals with electronic media coverage of public meetings. The Chair will entertain a motion:
That the Chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
Senator Cools: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Honourable senators, the time slots that we have for our regular meetings are Tuesdays at 9:30 a.m. and Wednesdays at 5:45 p.m. The Wednesday slot is not a new one, but the Tuesday time slot is new. Do not ask me why we sit at 5:45 p.m. on Wednesdays, but I presume it is because other committees will meet in the earlier part of the afternoon.
The committee adjourned.