Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Fisheries
Issue 1 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Wednesday, November 24, 1999
The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries met this day at 5:50 p.m. to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Ms Barbara Reynolds, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, we have a quorum. As clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am ready to receive motions to that effect.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: This committee accomplished a great deal under the chairmanship of Senator Comeau, notably a study of the fishery and of quotas.
I move that Senator Gerald Comeau be appointed Chair of the Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans so that he can continue doing a fine job.
[English]
Ms Reynolds: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Robichaud that Senator Comeau be Chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt this motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms Reynolds: The motion is carried. I invite Senator Comeau to take the Chair.
Senator Gerald J. Comeau (Chairman) in the Chair.
[Translation]
The Chairman: I want to thank Senator Robichaud for nominating me for the position of committee chairman. I appreciate his kind words and I hope I prove myself worthy of his trust.
We have had some positive experiences in the past and I hope to continue pressing forward with a number of issues.
[English]
I will now accept nominations for deputy chair.
Senator Watt: I nominate Senator Robichaud.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Senator Watt moves that Senator Robichaud be appointed Deputy Chair of the committee. Is everyone agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: We are unanimous then.
[English]
Therefore, Senator Robichaud will be the deputy chair.
[Translation]
Honourable Senator, thank you for accepting this position.
[English]
The third item on our agenda deals with the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. I suggest that we approach Senator Perrault, who is from the West Coast, to see if he would agree to serve on the subcommittee.
I would entertain the following motion:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair and one other member of the committee to be designated after the usual consultation;
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and to schedule hearings; and
That the subcommittee report its decisions to the committee.
Senator Cook: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
The next motion is with regard to printing the committee's proceedings.I think the bare minimum is 200 and we can increase that numbers as much as we like, but I would suggest that 250 copies of the proceedings of the committee be printed.
Senator Watt: What is the rationale behind 200 copies?
The Chairman: I will ask the clerk to explain that.
Ms Reynolds: We have a list of 207 people who regularly ask for the report, so 250 copies would give us a few extra. In the last session, we printed 450 copies and that was far too many. If we print 250 copies, we could send some out if constituents particularly want an extra one.
[Translation]
The Chairman: We can always request that additional copies be printed, if necessary.
Senator Robichaud: Is the information available over the Internet?
The Chairman: Often, it is not available as quickly on the Internet.
[English]
Ms Reynolds: It is available on the Internet but sometimes people phone and ask for hard copies because when they download and print it, it comes out in a much bigger format than ours. Some people specifically ask that it be sent from the committee. Also, a number of copies are sent to the central government distribution service, and that is included in the figure of 207.
As well, the motion authorizes the chair to adjust the number to meet demand.
Senator Robichaud: If that is the case, why not go with 215?
The Chairman: That is fine. We will monitor it and if we are printing more copies than necessary, we will decrease the number immediately.
Therefore, I would entertain the following motion:
That the committee print 215 copies of its proceedings and that the Chair be authorized to adjust this number to meet demand.
Senator Mahovlich: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
I would entertain the following motion:
That, pursuant to rule 89, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a representative of the government and a representative from the opposition are present.
Senator Furey: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
The next item is the financial report. Whenever a new committee is struck after prorogation or a new Parliament, we report on the expenses incurred in the previous session.
Ms Reynolds: A document has been distributed to you showing all of the expenses incurred by the Fisheries Committee in the first session.
The Chairman: If passed, this will be our first report and we will present it to the Senate at the earliest opportunity.
Senator Watt: These are the expenses from the previous session; is that correct?
The Chairman: Yes.
Ms Reynolds: This is a fairly standard format used by all the committees.
Senator Robichaud: What about our trip to the West Coast?
The Chairman: We did not go. I will ask for a motion.
Senator Furey: I move:
That, pursuant to rule 104, the Chair be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee during the last session.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion is carried. The next item is research staff.
Senator Watt: I move:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the Committee;
That the Chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for the purposes of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject-matters of bills and estimates as are referred to it;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the Committee; and
That the Chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
With your permission, I should like to ask the Library of Parliament to reassign to the committee Claude Emery, our researcher for quite a number of years. Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried. That was a submotion of the main motion.
I now move to the next item, authority to commit funds and certify accounts.
Senator Mahovlich: I move:
That, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred on the Chair or, in the Chair's absence, the Deputy Chair; and
That, pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and Guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the Committee be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair and the Clerk of the committee.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried. The next item is travel.
Senator Cook: I move:
That the committee empower the Steering Committee to designate as required one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee; and
That the Sub-committee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
(1) determine whether any member of the Committee is on "official business" for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and;
(2) consider any member of the committee on "official business" if that member is: (a) attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of the Committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the Committee.
The Chairman: This item is a brand new motion in that given the new rules of attendance in the Senate, any Senator who claims to be representing the committee would have to have that certified by the committee itself.
Ms Reynolds: By the subcommittee.
The Chairman: Yes. That ensures that we would not abuse the new rules of attendance of the Senate. You look perplexed, Senator Robichaud.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: This motion will have to be approved by the Senate before we can act on it. Is that correct?
Ms. Reynolds: That is correct.
[English]
The wording of this was devised by the members of the Banking Committee. They were the first to raise this matter. To be invited to the Chamber of Commerce, for example, is not directly a fish-related duty. Going to a fish association, on the other hand, quite obviously would be. This motion is to allow the Subcommittee on Procedure to certify, for the purposes of the attendance record, that you are on official business if you are giving a speech or something of that nature.
Senator Robichaud: I have no problem with that. I will be very vigilant for people who come in and say, "I was at such and such a meeting and you mark me down, just for the record." We can get into a game that I should not like to play if we do not take this seriously.
The Chairman: I agree.
Ms Reynolds: This subject was discussed quite extensively in the committee's branch, and they felt that this wording would be quite helpful.
Senator Robichaud: I am not concerned about the wording, I simply want to make sure that the steering committee does not approve just any presence anywhere for attendance purposes.
The Chairman: You and I will both be on the steering committee. I agree we should not allow this to become an abuse of the committee's good graces.
Senator Robichaud: I do not see anyone around this table who might abuse it.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Watt: Even though it is a bit late, may I ask a question on that same topic? What happens in the case of a member of the committee who claims to represent the committee but who is not authorized to do so?
The Chairman: I assume that in that case the member would have to come to our steering committee to ask for consideration retroactively.
Senator Watt: If he happened to be elsewhere, in one of the provinces, and this was publicized by the media, then he would get into trouble, would he not?
Senator Robichaud: I would advise that members approach the steering committee before the meeting or the event happens, rather than come afterwards and say that they were there.
The Chairman: If anyone purports to represent the Fisheries Committee, we ought to know about it. Otherwise, the situation is too dangerous.
Senator Watt: What I am getting at is even if a member does not claim that he represents the committee, if in response to questions from the media he says something about the committee's work, is it considered to be a leak?
The Chairman: Obviously, we are not going to let this become a means for people to evade the rules of attendance, which were established for good reasons in the Senate. I should not like to see this abused in any way. Both Senator Robichaud and I will be sitting on the steering committee, and I think we will ensure that this does not become a reason for people to miss their attendance in the Senate.
Senator Robichaud: When we were outside the capital on committee work, we were not considered to be in attendance in the Senate, were we?
Ms Reynolds: You were considered to be on official business.
Senator Robichaud: What will this motion do?
The Chairman: It will do the same thing.
Senator Robichaud: Will it not cause us difficulties with respect to our attendance?
The Chairman: No.
Ms Reynolds: It is in the second category, the one marked with the little asterisk. Each time when we were away, I had to attest as your clerk that you were on official business.
Senator Robichaud: Present and in attendance, also.
Ms Reynolds: Yes.
The Chairman: The next item is travelling and living expenses of witnesses.
Senator Watt: I move:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses' expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the Chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
The next item is electronic media coverage of public meetings. I would entertain the following motion:
That the Chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings; and.
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
Senator Robichaud: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Next we have the time slot for regular meetings. May I make a suggestion to the committee? I suggest that your steering committee go through the permutations and possibilities. Our clerk will be distributing copies to you of an initial survey that we did of all time slots of committees over the time periods possible. We have run into conflicts all over the place, but we are not giving up yet.
We would like the steering committee, along with the clerk, to go through it a few times to see if we can come up with something that will get the maximum number of members into a time slot somewhere. Let us be a little creative. I undertake to discuss the suggestions from the steering committee with every one of you individually.
Senator Watt: Since I am the chairman of another committee, and if I am to be active in this committee, I must ensure that it does not conflict with my other committee. I should like to let you know that we sit on Tuesday at 9:00 a.m. and Wednesday at 5:45 p.m.
The Chairman: Yes. By the way, we have the time for every member of the committee.
Senator Furey: That is a good suggestion, Mr. Chairman. I suggest that you proceed with your steering committee and then we will all review your suggestions.
The Chairman: I know the clerk has done quite a bit of work on it and we will try to come up with something. We will leave that in suspension for the time being.
The next item is future business of the committee. Last year we had a very broad mandate, which we sought from the Senate, which was to look at the Estimates of Fisheries and Oceans as outlined in the Treasury Board's Report on Plans and Priorities -- that is, the performance report. It was a very broad mandate, but it allowed us to get all kinds of witnesses from the department, from small crafts harbours to the minister or deputy minister, because virtually every program of the department is listed under those Estimates. I suggest to you that this might again be at least a broad mandate of the committee, might establish our broad guideline, although it would not preclude our going into a very specific study.
Last year, when we did our ITQ report, we did have a suggestion that this be referred to us year after year. Apparently, it cannot be done that way unless we change the Rules of the Senate. It must be in the Rules of the Senate, somewhat like the Library of Parliament.
Senator Robichaud: That report was accepted by the Senate. I moved the report. It was on the last day that it was to come off and it was adopted by the Senate.
Ms Reynolds: I have proposed it as a draft, based on the fact that the only two committees that have a permanent order of reference are the Privileges Committee and the Internal Economy Committee. In order for the report to be accepted, there would have to be a change in the rules. The next step might be for the Rules Committee to make a change. However, the Estimates that were referred to this committee were a particular vote of the Main Estimates, which died on the Order Paper at the end of the last session.
We did have two orders of reference: one, which came out in March, talked about the aims and objectives and the plans and priorities of the department, and the other, which was tabled in the Senate on November 2, is the evaluation of how well the department is doing. With these two documents, you could call virtually anyone in the department because one sets out what they plan to do and the other is the evaluation of how they have accomplished that.
At the moment, the only Estimates that are before the Senate are Supplementary Estimates (A), and they were sent to the National Finance Committee, with the exception of one or two, including a vote that went, I believe, to Official Languages. However, at the moment it is not possible to get Supplementary Estimates (A) through the same mechanism you used last time, and I am sorry, I do not know if they did in fact cover fish. With these two, you would be able to do essentially what you would like to do.
Senator Robichaud: If I may, Mr. Chairman, are you telling me that the recommendation in our report can now be put into effect?
Ms Reynolds: It is now the responsibility of the Rules Committee to come up with a new rule.
Senator Robichaud: We must, however, bring it to their attention if we wish to pursue this.
The Chairman: Correct. This might be one case where we need to give the Rules Committee a proposal outlining why we as a committee think that this should become part of the rules. There are ample reasons why it should be, given that Fisheries and Oceans is one of the most regulated departments in Parliament. That is just one reason, but there will probably be many others.
Senator Robichaud: In the House of Commons, these Estimates are referred automatically to the committee and if they are not dealt with by a certain date they are deemed to have been dealt with.Is that the case?
Ms Reynolds: That is the case, because in the House of Commons they have a different system for dealing with Estimates. In the case of the Senate it goes only to one committee, with the exception of two small votes.
Senator Robichaud: I thought that this was Senator Stewart's intention?
The Chairman: I was under that impression as well.
Ms Reynolds: The ball is in the court of the Rules Committee; you would have to draw it to their attention.
The Chairman: I believe they would look at it favourably given the intent. If you recall, when you presented the report in the Senate, the intent I believe was made very plain, that this was what we were attempting to achieve.
Senator Robichaud: We should look into that.
Mr. Claude Emery, Researcher, Library of Parliament: Perhaps we could try to get the Estimates sent over here.
The Chairman: We will go to the next step. We can do it as a steering committee and report to the full committee to see whether you will be agreeable with the strategy at that point. We will have it in the form of a motion to the full committee. If that is agreeable, the steering committee will report back on this.
The clerk is distributing this very broad mandate of looking into the Estimates and performance reports. I would entertain a motion.
Ms Reynolds: Then would you go to the chamber and seek the authority for this?
The Chairman: We could do that through a notice of motion.
Ms Reynolds: The procedure will take a few days to complete. I have picked an arbitrary date.
Senator Robichaud: I agree and I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
As our last item of business, I see suggestions for future business. Would you want to study the Marshall case, without duplicating the work of the Commons Fisheries Committee? They are presently looking at it, but I understand they are examining the micro level, the allocation and the impact of the decision on resource users and, somewhat, on management.
This committee might want to look at the long-term impact of this decision. How it will affect the resources in the future? The decision was very narrow as defined by the court; it basically applied to eels. It could in the future have an impact on, for example, lobster. Perhaps we could do a post-mortem on why the Supreme Court decision was so badly misinterpreted by many people and how, in the future, we can avoid the same damage. That is simply a suggestion. A potential witness could be Professor Patterson, who was involved in the decision. The Justice Department may send witnesses on. There may be suggestions other than the Marshall case and I would ask you to give them to me.
Senator Robichaud: Perhaps we could study aqua-culture. A lot has been happening in aqua-culture in spite of the department. Courageous business people have put the industry on the road, yet we need more research. Many year-round jobs can be created. Could anyone imagine a few years ago that, in my part of the world, in Southeast New Brunswick, a factory would process aqua-cultured muscles from P.E.I.? No one dreamed of the potential there.
The Chairman: Thank you. I invite other ideas, too. We may want to pursue the West Coast invitation that we received. The ideas will all be examined in the steering committee and we will report back to you.
The committee adjourned.