Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Legal and
Constitutional Affairs
Issue 1 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Thursday, November 18, 1999
The Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs met this day at 11:05 a.m. to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Mr. Michel Patrice, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, we have a quorum. As clerk of this committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the Chair. I am ready to receive motions to that effect.
Senator Fraser: I move that the Honourable Senator Milne be Chair of this committee.
Mr. Patrice: Are there any other nominations respecting the position of Chair, honourable senators?
Hearing none, is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Patrice: I declare the motion carried.
I invite Senator Milne to take the Chair.
Senator Lorna Milne (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Thank you, honourable senators. Before we begin, I wish to introduce you to the new clerk of this committee. He is Michel Patrice. The assistant clerk will be Josée Thérien. Nancy Holmes is back as our Library researcher.
On behalf of the committee, I would like to write to our past clerk, Dr. Heather Lank, and her assistant, Colette Charlebois, to express the regards of this committee. Dr. Lank was, I believe, one of the best clerks in the Senate. We will miss her a great deal. I have been warning Mr. Patrice that he has large shoes to fill. I am sure he can do it.
I should also like to express our thanks to the Library of Parliament researchers who helped us during the last session. In addition to Nancy Holmes, we were helped by David Goetz, Marilyn Pilon, Mary Hurley, Mollie Dunsmuir, Luc Gagné, Gérald Lafrenière, Jamie Robertson, and Monique Hébert. They did a fine and conscientious job for us during the last session.
I will now receive motions for the election of a deputy chair.
Senator Andreychuk: I move that Senator Beaudoin be Deputy Chair of this committee.
The Chairman: Are there any further nominations?
Hearing none, is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried.
We now need a motion:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair and one other member of the committee to be designated after the usual consultation;
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and schedule hearings; and
That the subcommittee report its decisions to the committee.
Senator Andreychuk: I so move.
Senator Cools: Is the other member to be named?
The Chairman: We do this habitually, apparently, in all the committees. If someone needs to be replaced, it can be done without a meeting of the entire committee.
Senator Cools: I do not see how that is possible. In other committees on which I have sat, the practice has always been to name the third person on the steering committee. However, it does not matter to me.
The Chairman: I do not believe we ever have done that here.
Senator Andreychuk: That same question did come up in another committee.
Senator Cools: Most of the committees name the other member.
Senator Andreychuk: In that other committee to which I referred, Senator Stewart pointed out that this is the tradition and the practice. He asked, as the chair, for the right to consult with the rest of the members.
Senator Cools: They consult as to who the individual will be. The consultation is about the naming of the person, but that person should then be formally named by the committee.
The Chairman: That is right. The motion refers to "after the usual consultation."
Senator Cools: That is what I am saying. You can consult on the selection of the individual, but that person still must be appointed by the committee.
The Chairman: Oh, yes.
Senator Cools: That is what I am saying. How do other committees do it? Do they cover both aspects in one?
The Chairman: Honourable senators, if you like, I would suggest that Senator Moore be the third person on the steering committee.
Senator Andreychuk: We will take that discussion to be the usual consultation?
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried.
We now need a motion:
That the committee print 300 copies of its proceedings and that the Chair be authorized to adjust this number to meet demand.
It is my suggestion that this time we print 300 copies. In the last session, the motion was for 450 copies, but I do not believe that many copies are necessary. We are able to cut back on the number because of the electronic transmission of the committee's proceedings. If the demand for copies of a particular proceeding is high, then the number can be increased.
Senator Cools: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried.
We need a motion:
That, pursuant to rule 89, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a representative of the government and a representative from the opposition are present.
Senator Beaudoin: I am ready to move that motion; however, I should like to know if it means, in practice, that we may sit with only two members present?
The Chairman: We cannot sit to make any decisions whatsoever, only to receive evidence.
Senator Beaudoin: Then I so move.
Senator Cools: The intention is to allow the chairman and one other person to begin a meeting on time, to hear witnesses while the rest of us are stranded somewhere. It is not to be usurped, because I have seen situations where that became the modus operandi.
The Chairman: In the four years I have been on the committee, I have never seen this right used, but it will allow us to start the meetings on time while members are filtering in from other meetings or from the chamber itself.
Is it agreed, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
Next, we need a motion:
That, pursuant to Rule 104, the chair be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee during the last session.
Senator Fraser: I so move.
Senator Beaudoin: Are we in fact spending any money?
The Chairman: We do not have the final total from the last session. It will be approximately $8,000. In the last year, it was about $1,900. I will report the final figure to the Senate as required.
Is it agreed, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried.
Next, we need a motion:
That the Committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the Committee;
That the Chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject matters of bills and estimates as are referred to it;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the Chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
Senator Pearson: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried.
We now need a motion:
That, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the Chair or, in the Chair's absence, the Deputy Chair; and
That, pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and Guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred on the chair, the deputy chair and the clerk of the committee.
Senator Beaudoin: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried.
We suggest the following motion:
That the following budget application be approved for submission to the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration subject to the granting by the Senate of authority to engage the services of personnel:
SUMMARY OF EXPENDITURES:
Professional and special services, $ 18,100
Transportation and communications, 8,510
Other expenditures, 2,550
Total, $ 29,160
That amount is lower than the $36,600 requested last year, of which we only spent about $1,900. This is a very frugal committee. The decrease occurs under the heading of transportation and communications because we did not use video-conferencing last year whatsoever, so we reduced the amount in the video-conferencing portion of the budget.
Senator Fraser: What is included in professional and special services here?
The Chairman: If we embark on special study, we may need to hire assistance from outside, beyond the Senate staff and the Library. We have always been able to get our assistance in-house.
Senator Beaudoin: That is a good thing. We may have a difficult problem on which we need the services of a jurist or an expert from a particular field. What if we decide we do need video-conferencing this year? That could happen.
The Chairman: There is still a good amount of padding in this budget. We also now have televising of the committee.
Senator Beaudoin: Do we pay for that?
The Chairman: No, but our conferences on particular bills can be televised. There is less need for video-conferencing.
Senator Joyal: If this committee decides to televise its debates on a certain project or legislation, would the cost be taken out of that $8,000? Would we need to go back for further authorization?
The Chairman: No. The cost of televising committee proceedings does not come out of the individual budget of each committee.
Senator Joyal: I so move the motion regarding the budget.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried.
We now need a motion regarding travel:
That the committee empower the Chair to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
1) Determine whether any member of the committee is on "official business" for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
2) Consider any member of the committee to be on "official business" if that member is: (a) attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of the committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee.
I should point out that we have never travelled since I have been on the committee.
Senator Cools: This is a totally different item.
The Chairman: This is for individuals and for staff. For example, last year, there was a conference that our clerk and her assistant attended, but it so happened that the conference was in Ottawa so we did not have to pay for any travel.
Senator Cools: The motion is quite complex. It is a multi-dimensional motion. The first part of the motion empowers the committee to designate one or more members of the committee to travel on behalf of the committee. That is pretty straightforward. The part that seems to be new is the empowering of the subcommittee to determine whether individual members are on official business, in respect of attending functions, events or meetings related to the work of the committee. That is a separate issue from the committee travelling. Could we have some explanation on that? This is quite new.
Mr. Patrice: That notion of the senators' attendance policy came up last year or the year before, where a senator might do some work outside the confines of Ottawa relating to work of the committee, attending a conference or something like that, and being able to have his or her attendance marked at the Senate. This is to have his or her absence justified in the Senate.
Senator Cools: Right now, any senator can go to speak anywhere in Canada. If I were to go and speak to the annual meeting of the Children' Aid Society, that authority currently exists. This is slightly different. This is putting the determination of that before this committee. It is an entirely different matter. Right now, anyone can do what you just described.
Mr. Patrice: This one is on behalf of the committee.
Senator Cools: It does not say that.
The Chairman: It does in the first part. It mentions travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
Senator Cools: That is at the beginning, but the motion is many motions in one. The first part of the motion could almost stand alone, be severed. The second part of the motion is totally different.
The Chairman: Senator Cools, the second part of this also includes the paragraph on the next page, which states that the member of the committee is on official business if that member is, (a) attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of the committee, or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee.
Senator Cools: Precisely. "Related to the work of the committee" is quite different from "on behalf of the work of the committee." One can argue that anything that Senator Andreychuk speaks on in respect of legal questions could be related to the work of the committee. The real point here that has to be made -- and I do not know much about the history of it -- is that one is putting a determination of individual senators before the subcommittee. If senators do not mind that, that is fine, go ahead, but it is a different point.
Senator Pearson: I assumed that this had arisen from the new policy that was adopted in the Senate in which we are required to justify our absence as a result of (a), (b) or (c). I find now I have to send a letter saying whose personal representative I am, and so on.
Senator Cools: This will not change that.
Senator Beaudoin: If I may, that is another thing.
Mr. Patrice: You can do it on your own behalf and send a letter, because there are many categories of official business, and one of them is business of the committee. Another example is where you would be absent as a result of a speaking engagement. What is before us only touches the issue of the committee. In the absence of such a motion, if you want to register yourself on business of the committee, it would have to come to the full committee every time. That motion gives the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure the power. It does not mean you cannot be on official business for other reasons, as described in your attendance policies.
Senator Cools: It is very different.
Senator Beaudoin: I am pleased you raised that point. They are two different things. For example, if you are asked by the Minister of Justice to do something and, as a result, are absent from the Senate, you are on official business if you have a letter from the Minister of Justice. That has nothing to do with this committee. If we have someone here representing the legal committee, even if we say that it is official business, it is official business for our committee but not for the record of presence in the Senate.
The Chairman: It can be on official committee business, if we pass this motion.
Senator Pearson: The policy states now that if we are travelling in the committee, we are counted as present in the Senate.
Senator Beaudoin: I see.
Senator Pearson: And I think this falls into that category. You are absent on behalf of the committee. It falls under the category of committee business.
Senator Beaudoin: Who says it is official business?
Senator Andreychuk: The Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.
Senator Beaudoin: The steering committee?
Senator Andreychuk: Yes.
Senator Fraser: Perhaps the clerk will correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is because there are various categories that qualify as official business. One of those categories is committee business. I can be absent for reasons that have nothing to do with the committee, but if I say that the reason for my absence was official business related to committee business, then the committee has to say, yes, indeed, that was committee business.
Senator Beaudoin: In the second column.
Senator Fraser: That is right. It would not apply to any other claim for official business, just if you say you were on committee business.
Senator Cools: No, that is not what it says. It says "related." It says it very clearly.
Senator Fraser: When you file your absence report and say, "I am representing a minister," you have to get a letter from the minister. In the same way, if you say, "I am doing work for the committee," you will have to get a letter from the committee, or something to that effect, and this motion enables the steering committee to do that rather than the whole committee.
Senator Beaudoin: If it is that, then I agree.
The Chairman: That is the only way it would ever be used.
Senator Cools: Do you guarantee that?
The Chairman: I will.
Senator Cools: I will reserve my judgment on that.
Senator Andreychuk: I think the guarantee arises because the subcommittee has to meet and make a determination on a request.
Senator Cools: What happens when an individual senator here goes off and does something and did not get prior authority?
Senator Andreychuk: Then it is the senator's responsibility. You need prior authorization.
Senator Cools: It does not say that.
Senator Andreychuk: Then you go at your own jeopardy.
Senator Beaudoin: I am not afraid of that.
Senator Andreychuk: We have already had this come up in another committee. A committee member said, "This is legitimate. It will help with the committee's study." The subcommittee had not met. That member went off and came back, and we determined it was not part of our study and said: "You took a risk, you went. It was probably justifiable for you as a senator to do so; it probably helped you on your study." However, as a committee we would not authorize it.
In the case of another application, we approved it. We would all like to have gone, but we agreed that it was too costly, so we said to the member, "You go and bring us back the answers to these questions."
Senator Beaudoin: I am not too worried about the question of legality here, because the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure will be authorized to determine whether any member is on official business. That is the end of it. If the subcommittee does not say you were on official business, then you were not.
Senator Fraser: On official committee business.
Senator Beaudoin: That is right.
Senator Fraser: You may be on other official business.
Senator Beaudoin: I think the wording is okay.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Cools: I abstain.
The Chairman: Carried.
We now need a motion to cover travelling and living expenses of witnesses.
In the past, this committee has made it a policy to pay the travelling expenses of one witness per organization. However, pursuant to the Rules of the Senate, there is the right to pay for two witnesses per organization, and there may be special circumstances in which we would want to pay the expenses of a second witness.
An example might be a bill that would affect the civil law of Quebec differently from the way it would affect the common law in the rest of the country. That would be one of the only conditions that I can think of that would require paying the expenses of a second witness.
I will read the motion, because I believe this does affect you, Senator Beaudoin.
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
Senator Andreychuk: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried.
We need a motion for electronic media coverage of public meetings.
Senator Cools: What happened to meals?
Mr. Patrice: That is in the budget application.
The Chairman: All right. We rarely feed the committee, I must admit. However, oftentimes when we provide food, the meeting adjourns early and the food sits there and goes to waste.
It is moved by Senator Beaudoin:
That the Chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
Senator Beaudoin: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried.
The time slot for our meetings is normally Wednesday, when the Senate rises, but not before 3:30, and Thursday at 10:45 a.m. In both of those time slots, the meeting will take place in Room 257, East Block.
If there is no future business of the committee, we will adjourn.
The committee adjourned.