Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Fisheries
Issue 1 - Evidence, February 20, 2001
OTTAWA, Tuesday, February 20, 2001
The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries met this day at 5:35 p.m. to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Ms Barbara Reynolds, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, we have quorum. As clerk of the committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am ready to receive a motion for the election of the chair.
Senator Cook: I move that Senator Gerald Comeau be the Chair of the Committee.
Senator Watt: I second that motion.
Ms Reynolds: If there are no other nominations, I ask that Senator Comeau take the Chair.
Senator Gerald Comeau (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. I will try not to disappoint you. I am sure I have a few friends around the table who will tell me if I do that.
Before I go on to the second item of business, I should like to comment on how pleased I was with the work of the former committee. A few members of that committee are sitting around the table now. Every member of the committee gave me tremendous support during the last session. I look forward to continuing the work we have done in the past.
I should also like to thank our two permanent staff members, Barbara and Claude, for their tremendous efforts during the last session. We have been most fortunate in having these two people working with our committee.
Senator Mahovlich: We will miss Senator Perrault.
The Chairman: Yes, along with the many others who have gone before him. Senator Perrault was certainly a delight to have on the committee. He will be hard to replace, but we will do the best we can.
The second item of business is the election of the deputy chair.
Senator Robertson: I nominate Senator Cook.
The Chairman: It is moved by Senator Robertson, seconded by Senator Watt, that Senator Cook be the deputy chair.
If there are no further nominations, Senator Cook will be the deputy chair.
Congratulations, Senator Cook. I look forward to working with you.
Senator Cook has been an assiduous and constant member of the committee for many years. I do not think she has ever missed a meeting. She is always ready to help with anything that needs to be done.
Next, I would entertain a motion for a Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.
Senator Cook: I so move.
The Chairman: I will read the motion as it is proposed. It is the third item and it appears on the second page.
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Cook:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and --
I would like to suggest an amendment.
Ms Reynolds: You can designate someone by name.
The Chairman: If you wish to do that, it can be done.
Senator Cook: I would designate Senator Charlie Watt.
The Chairman: Senator Watt will be designated the other member of the committee. We will scratch out the words, "to be designated after the usual consultation." Do all senators agree?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion continues:
That the Subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the Committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and to schedule hearings.
Senator Robertson: I would assume from the wording of that paragraph that that would be after consultation with the committee on certain items.
The Chairman: At the end of the paragraph?
Senator Robertson: It reads:
That the Subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the Committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and to schedule hearings.
Does that mean after consultation?
The Chairman: That would mean the committee would not be able to invite witnesses until it had an opportunity to consult.
Senator Robertson: We should know who is being called as witnesses.
The Chairman: I want to ensure that you realize what that would entail. If time permits, we would always consult with the full committee before inviting witnesses to appear.
Senator Watt: We leave it to administrators to take care of that. That is why we have three people on the subcommittee.
Senator Robertson: I am sure you understand my concern.
The Chairman: Yes, I understand your concern, senator.
Senator Robertson: This happens in other committees.
The Chairman: Might we proceed?
Ms Reynolds: I could offer the two options, if you want them outlined.
The Chairman: I suggest that we may wish to avoid having the steering committee come back to the full committee on every matter. I want to avoid that if we possibly can, as it would tie the hands of the subcommittee.
Senator Robertson: I agree with you on that.
The Chairman: I hear what you are saying. You would like the steering committee not to make decisions on future business without consulting the full committee. I agree with that. However, I would not like the committee's hands to be tied.
Senator Robertson: No, but I would not want to override this committee as well. There has to be a balance.
The Chairman: Can we word this so that the subcommittee's hands will not be tied?
Ms Reynolds: You would indicate that the subcommittee, after consultation with the committee, would be empowered to make decisions. That would put an onus on the subcommittee to consult.
Senator Robertson: That would be satisfactory.
Ms Reynolds: You would still allow the subcommittee to make, for example, a decision about the order in which witnesses will be called. Some committees do operate so that nothing happens unless there is a report back. That has to be officially minuted. You can phrase it that the subcommittee can act, after consultation.
Senator Robertson: That solves it.
Senator Watt: Just one moment. Are we creating a subcommittee and, if so, for what specific purpose?
The Chairman: No. This is the steering committee.
Senator Watt: If we are talking about a steering committee, that is fine. That is the role of a steering committee, but not a subcommittee.
The Chairman: The steering committee is a subcommittee of the committee.
Senator Callbeck: The first part of that motion reads:
That the Subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the Committee with respect to its agenda --
The Chairman: Correct.
Senator Callbeck: No, it should not be the agenda. The word "agenda" should come out of there. You should be able to invite witnesses and schedule hearings, but you must consult with regard to the agenda.
Senator Robertson: I think "consultation" is satisfactory.
Senator Cook: Perhaps Senator Robertson would be happy if it were to read "after consultation," with respect to the witnesses. I expect she would like to have input with regard to setting the agenda.
Senator Robertson: Once we decide what types of witnesses we should hear from, we do not want to find that the agenda has been changed. You cannot prepare for that kind of meeting.
The Chairman: I agree. I want to be sure that this would not tie our hands. Thus, the item will read:
That the Subcommittee, after consultation with the Committee, be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the Committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and to schedule hearings.
Senator Cook, do you agree with the proposed changes?
Senator Cook: Yes. I am hearing that all honourable senators on the committee would like to have some input. That would help the subcommittee. It is their responsibility to listen.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, all in favour of the motion as amended?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Turning to item number 4, the motion to print the committee's proceeding.
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Mahovlich:
That the Committee print its proceedings and that the Chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand.
As I understand it, depending on the level of interest that might be shown in a particular subject, the number might go up. However, we do have a standard number. Ms Reynolds, are you able to enlighten me as to that number?
Ms Reynolds: In the past, we have tended to print about 250 copies. However, as people now obtain information from the Internet, the demand for copies has decreased.
The Committees Directorate, in an effort to reduce costs, has been trying to monitor the situation and to keep the number of copies quite low. Thus, we may start by running off about 100 copies and print more later, if needed. If the Chair and the committee would be agreeable to that kind of flexibility, it certainly would save space and paper and be environmentally prudent.
The Chairman: In the last session, we did lower the number of copies in some areas.
Honourable senators, all those in favour of the fourth motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Turning to item number 5, the authorization to hold meetings and to print evidence when a quorum is not present. As I understand it, this is a standard motion that applies to all committees, and the motion is moved by Senator Watt.
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
I turn now to the motion dealing with the financial report. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Adams that, pursuant to rule 104, the Chair be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee during the last session. According to the Rules of the Senate, we must make this report.
Ms Reynolds: This report must be completed within the first 15 days of the sitting in a new session. A copy has been provided in the list of documents.
The Chairman: I note that the committee heard from 41 witnesses and held 14 meetings. Someone may say, "Only 14 meetings for that kind of money?" The problem is that when we meet with individuals, as we did during a number of trips last year, those are not counted as meetings. We met with dozens of groups, yet they did not count as meetings because we were not in Ottawa, holding full-fledged meetings as we are doing here tonight.
Senator Robertson: That does not make sense.
The Chairman: We have checked into this. We do know that the House of Commons has a procedure by which they can count those meetings outside of Ottawa. We will look into that to see if we can adopt the same procedure in the Senate.
Although, according to the Rules of the Senate, this may be correct, we did have many more meetings than the number shown here, even though we did not have full interpretation, full reporting of proceedings and so on. As a result, those were not counted as meetings.
Senator Callbeck: In the report that you submit to the Senate, is there no mention of that?
The Chairman: We note that the committee also conducted five study tours to New Brunswick, Quebec and so on.
Senator Robertson: Could that information be added as an addendum to the report?
The Chairman: Would that be possible, Ms Reynolds?
Ms Reynolds: We could count the number of meetings. I inserted the number of study tours in order to show where the money was spent. The expenditure of $150,000 does cover two fiscal years, the whole of the second session. However, we could count the number of groups or individuals with whom you met. That could be noted.
The Chairman: I would like to see that.
Senator Robertson: That would certainly show that the committee was working.
The Chairman: I intend to pursue this procedure, that is counting all of those study tours. It is important that they be counted as meetings. I will report those figures to the full committee.
Honourable senators, all those in agreement with the financial report?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I would turn now to item number 7.
It is moved by Senator Robertson,
That the Committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the Committee;
That the Chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the Committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject-matters of bills, and estimates as are referred to it;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the Committee; and
That the Chair, on behalf of the Committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries, and draft reports.
Again, this is a standard format.
Senator Robertson: May we add a clause to ensure that Mr. Emery returns to the committee?
The Chairman: That is a marvelous idea. However, I am not sure that it can be included as part of the motion. The motion would read:
That the Committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers, especially Claude Emery...
I have no problem adding that.
Honourable senators, all those in favour of the amendment?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Honourable senators, all those in favour of the full motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Mr. Emery, that is a great confidence-booster, is it not?
Turning to the motion for authority to commit funds and certify accounts.
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Callbeck:
That pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the Chair, Deputy Chair, and the Clerk of the Committee; and
That pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act and the guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the Committee be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and the Clerk of the Committee.
By way of explanation, last year we found ourselves in the position of having to authorize the expenditure for video conferencing.
During a weekend, the clerk had to track me down somewhere in Nova Scotia. I believe the clerk should have had the authority to certify that account which amounted to something like $400. This will give her the authority to make such expenditures. Obviously we would not want her to authorize major expenditures, and I think she recognizes that.
Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I turn now to item number nine.
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Mahovlich:
That the Committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the Committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the Committee:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
1) determine whether any member of the committee is on "official business" for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
2) consider any member of the Committee to be on "official business" if that member is: (a) attending a function, event or meeting relating to the work of the Committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee.
This is a standard motion which was introduced last year. Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item 10 deals with the travelling and living expenses of witnesses.
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Moore:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses expenses, the Committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the Chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item number 11 deals with the electronic media coverage of public meetings.
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Cook:
That the Chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
I understand from the clerk that this now would authorize the new Internet system where you can have floor coverage on the Internet.
Ms Reynolds: Yes, if the committee is being televised, there is the possibility of doing this.
The Chairman: This is a brand-new service.
Ms Reynolds: It was done for the first time with the committee on drug policy, just before the election, and it is being done on an experimental basis.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next item dels with time slot for regular meetings. If senators are agreeable, given that we are now entering into a slightly different format, I would ask the we continue in camera. We will include a short discussion on future business. Would all honourable senators be agreeable to continuing in camera?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Before we do that, I should like to note that the Fisheries Committee is first off the mark in holding its organization meeting.
The committee continued in camera.