Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Transport and Communications
Issue 31 - Evidence - June 5 sitting
OTTAWA, Wednesday, June 5, 2002
The Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications met this day at 5:35 p.m. to examine issues facing the intercity busing industry.
Senator Lise Bacon (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: I would like to welcome you to the public hearings of the committee's special study on intercity buses. The Minister of Transport asked this committee to undertake this study, for reasons that I will mention shortly.
We commenced our work at the end of last year and started our public hearings in February of this year. We are required to report before the end of 2002. I am confident that we will have sufficient time to adequately study the issue and develop recommendations.
We have already heard from a number of witnesses here in Ottawa, as well as in Montreal, Halifax, Vancouver, Calgary and Toronto. We have with us today Ms Patricia Raymaker, who is the chairperson of the National Advisory Council on Aging, and Madam Louise Plouffe, from Health Canada.
We have heard from seniors groups in Atlantic Canada and in the West. It appears there are some problems with regard to inadequate bus service for the older population, especially in rural areas.
The council has recently written about transportation issues for the elderly in rural communities in a newsletter distributed to the committee. Therefore, we will be especially interested to hear the council's views on this topic.
For the benefit of our witness, I will say a few words to review why we have been asked to study the issue of intercity buses. The essence of the problem is that intercity bus ridership has been steadily declining for several decades. This decline is troubling because the bus mode is an important part of the passenger transportation system. The bus mode can go virtually everywhere. It is environmentally friendly and, historically, a relatively inexpensive means of travel.
There are several possible explanations for the decline. It could be that people are better off than before and are travelling by automobile. It could be that more people are living in big cities. It could be that there is too much government regulation and that it varies too much from one province to another.
This is what we hope to discover in the weeks and months to come.
Ms Patricia Raymaker, Chairperson, National Advisory Council on Aging: The National Advisory Council on Aging is pleased to have the opportunity to respond to the special study of intercity buses of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications. On behalf of the council, I wish to thank you for your interest in our views relating to intercity bus transportation for seniors.
The National Advisory Council on Aging, NACA, was created by Order in Council in 1980 to assist and advise the Minister of Health on issues related to the aging of the Canadian population and the quality of life of seniors. NACA reviews the needs and problems of seniors and recommends remedial action, liaises with other groups interested in aging, encourages public discussion, and publishes and disseminates information on aging.
While the council notes the very substantial decline in intercity bus ridership generally, I would like to emphasize that seniors — for a variety of reasons — continue to be major users of the intercity bus transportation and rely on this form of transportation as an important way of maintaining their independence and enhancing their quality of life.
For many seniors — especially the increasing number of seniors aged 80 and older — intercity bus transportation remains their only viable form of long distance transportation, whether it be for pleasure trips or for visiting friends and relatives. This group of seniors, which numbers almost 1.3 million this year, and is the major user group of intercity bus transportation among the seniors themselves, will grow by 18 per cent over the next five years and by 32 per cent over the next ten years.
Therefore, in today's world, where mobility of all Canadians is much greater than a generation ago, maintaining social contact with one's family and friends, many of whom may be located in distant communities, can be a source of joy and meaning to seniors' lives. Seniors may also rely upon intercity bus transportation to travel to major urban centres for important medical reasons.
The National Advisory Council on Aging's consultation with seniors in the past have revealed that seniors view transportation and mobility as keys to independent living. While access to public transportation within the community is very important in this respect, so is transportation between communities.
My comments today will address three potential barriers for seniors related to intercity bus transportation: availability, affordability, and accessibility. Lastly, I will respond, from a senior's perspective, to some of the questions contained in your background paper.
NACA's major concern regarding availability of intercity bus transportation has to do with the potential consequences of industry deregulation. As we know, in the jurisdictions in which intercity bus transportation is currently regulated, there is a cross-subsidization of costs from the busier, more profitable routes to the less busy rural and small community routes. In other cases, fares are set on the busier routes so that the firms are guaranteed a reasonable profit in return for ensuring service to rural or small communities.
The National Advisory Council on Aging would oppose any deregulation of the industry that resulted in a substantial reduction or elimination of access to intercity bus transportation for seniors living in rural areas. The availability of intercity bus transportation is especially important in Saskatchewan and the Atlantic provinces, especially in Newfoundland, where almost 50 per cent of seniors live outside urban centres. NACA could, however, spoke some form of deregulation providing rural routes were maintained, safety standards remained high and were enforced, and fares remained stable or rose no faster than the rate of inflation.
As to affordability, seniors in Canada have incomes lower than the people in most age groups under the age of 65. This is especially true for older seniors and even more so for older senior women living alone. The average income of all seniors in 1995 was $23,080; for unattached senior women it was $17,060. Although in recent decades the percentage of seniors living below the poverty line has declined significantly, most seniors have modest budgets. The income discrepancies among today's working-age adults will likely persist as these people reach their senior years. The proportion of seniors with low to modest incomes will likely remain lie in rural areas of the country and where rates of unemployment are high.
Even though the private car is still the preferred mode of transportation for most seniors, it is often not a realistic financial option. The cost of owning and operating a vehicle — especially the cost of car insurance — can be prohibitive for many seniors on fixed incomes. Given this, and the fact that rail or air transportation are considerably more expensive than bus transportation, intercity bus transportation is often the most economic option for seniors, especially those with lower incomes.
The council, while recognizing private firms' needs to make a reasonable return on their investment, would not support any regulatory or deregulatory policies that resulted in intercity bus transportation becoming less affordable for seniors. It is very important that intercity bus transportation be both available and affordable to seniors. In the case of seniors' ridership levels, availability and affordability are inextricably linked.
For the purposes of today 's presentation when I discuss seniors' accessibility to intercity bus transportation, I am referring principally to concerns that affect the accessibility for all seniors — for example, poorly designed steps into buses, inadequate lighting in buses and terminals, and lack of trained attendants to assist seniors.
Just as the disability community in general is not homogeneous, neither is the seniors' disability community. While many seniors, including older seniors, continue to function at high levels, those with disabilities have a wide discrepancy in needs and requirements in using intercity buses. These needs will vary according to their functional abilities and their disability types — for example, mobility, agility, vision and hearing, and in speech and cognitive areas. Public policy designed to meet the needs of seniors with disabilities must address not only the physical barriers but communication barriers and attitudinal barriers as well.
A Transport Canada study in 1988 determined that for 75 per cent of persons who have difficulty using public transportation, the principal difficulties were boarding or disembarking from a vehicle. Some 51 per cent of people had difficulty getting to the bus stop. These figures are for the whole Canadian population. For older seniors, with potentially greater levels of disability, these numbers are likely higher.
Other problems for seniors with disabilities who need to use intercity bus transportation include entering, exiting and moving around in the terminal, and poor clearing of snow and ice at terminals and bus stops. To overcome some of these access barriers, the National Advisory Council on Aging suggests, first, that existing transportation systems, such as scheduling, boarding, disembarking and snow removal and equipment, such as buses' staircases and wheelchair accessibility, be adapted for maximum use by seniors with various degrees of disability. Second, signage around terminals and bus stops should be improved. Lighting, schedule information, voice mail and telecommunications should be made more senior-friendly. Third, for the people who work for the bus companies, including bus drivers, training includes education of the needs of older persons. This training should include information on appropriate communication methods.
NACA recognizes that jurisdictional authority for intercity bus transportation resides with the provinces and the territories and that even for intercity buses that cross provincial boundaries — which would normally be subject to federal regulations — federal authority over regulations in these cases has been delegated to the provinces and territories. However, the council urges the federal government, when contemplating amendments to the Motor Vehicle Transport Act of 1954, to make the adoption of ``disability-friendly'' to include senior-friendly. As well, access to intercity bus transportation should be a condition of delegating federal regulatory authority to the provinces and territories.
The council notes that because intercity bus transportation regulation has been delegated to the provinces and territories, the applicable standards can vary from one part of the country to another. To overcome some of these potential jurisdictional problems in improving disabled seniors' access, NACA suggests that information about innovative practices related to transportation services or about design changes to bus equipment that result in improved accessibility for disabled seniors should be widely disseminated so that they can be implemented in several jurisdictions. Furthermore, the council suggests that federal financial incentives be used to encourage provinces and territories to address factors that impact accessibility to bus transportation.
I will address some of the questions in your background paper. After that, I would be happy to answer any questions you may have. If I cannot answer your questions, I will take note of them and send you a written reply.
The first question asked is: How important are rural and remote bus service to Canadian residents? The National Advisory Council on Aging obviously cannot pretend to speak on behalf of all Canadians on this question. However, we would like to emphasize that rural and remote bus services are very important to seniors. It is likely that in the provinces where populations are dispersed — such as the Prairies and the Atlantic provinces — these services would be very important to all age groups regardless.
The second question is: Are safety standards high enough for buses; and are the National Safety Code provisions adequate?
While NACA believes that, generally, the safety provisions seem adequate, the council would like to review these provisions before commenting fully. Views on safety standards evolve rapidly as our knowledge increases about what causes injuries and how they may be prevented. The council recommends a regular review and amendment of these standards based on current research.
The third question is: What are the prospects for serving remote and rural routes with a type of service different from the large intercity bus? Are small vans, and the like, feasible options on these routes?
While I would need to consult with my NACA colleagues before formally endorsing such a proposal, I can say at this point that the use of alternative vehicles for these rural routes seems like a sound idea. Of course, ensuring that safety standards are equivalent to those of the larger buses and that these smaller vehicles address issues of availability, affordability and accessibility, would be critical in obtaining NACA's support.
Finally you asked, ``Is there any clear and obvious way to reverse the decline in bus usage that has been evident over the years? If the answer is lower fees, how do we achieve that without subsidies?''
It is likely that many travellers have moved to air or rail transportation because it is faster. Even though air and rail are more expensive modes of transportation, people are willing to spend more of their disposable income on transportation than in the past. Time, it appears, is viewed as a premium more than ever before. The National Advisory Council on Aging has not taken an official position on the question of how to reverse bus usage through lowering fares. However, perhaps the possible way to lower fares would be to open the market to competition. This would probably lower the prices for the profitable routes. While I believe that lower fares on these routes between major centres would be a desirable outcome, I would want to be assured that the end result did not lower service or raise fares disproportionately for the rural routes.
The Chairman: I would like to have your views on the level of intercity bus service available to users cross the country and the fares that are charged
Ms Raymaker: As I stated in my presentation, I think that we dealt with the principles on which fares would be increased or decreased and what would happen to ridership with seniors. Once again, I go back to the availability and affordability, recognizing that seniors have modest incomes.
I do not know if I am answering your question, but it is very important to senior ridership that it is an economical way for seniors to travel.
The Chairman: Do you feel that the fares are too high? Is it too expensive for seniors to travel by bus?
Ms Raymaker: To be honest, I do not know many of the fares. I will point out one issue, because I deal with seniors, the attendant fare issue with the older senior when travelling, that that is a big issue. That gives them their independence but the affordability of bringing someone along to take care of them while they ride the bus is an issue. I know that it has been looked into on the airlines and is being talked about. I also sit on the Advisory Committee on Accessible Transportation so I recognize you probably heard a lot of those issues.
Recognizing that seniors do have modest incomes, and recognizing that there have been increased user fees in health care over the last few years, many seniors are experiencing a decrease in their disposable incomes. It is very important for seniors to have independence. They have continuously told us that access to transportation is the key to their independence. Fees must be reasonable.
The Chairman: What are the prospects for serving remote and rural routes? Would small vans and the like be feasible options on these routes?
Ms Raymaker: Once again, it is in my presentation. I have not had a chance to talk to my colleagues. Alternative methods such as the smaller van, might give you an outcome that we would make everyone happy. However, we would want assurance that those vans and those small vehicles would be held to the same standards of safety as the larger carriers. Again, affordability would be an important consideration as well.
The Chairman: Some stakeholders are calling for the deregulation of intercity busing as a means of reversing the decline in the intercity bus use. Have you considered this issue and do you have any opinion on this policy option?
Ms Raymaker: We based our talk on deregulation. Once again, rural and smaller communities are the ones at risk here, I think, with deregulation. I cannot say we have looked at all of the issues, but we do say that if deregulation would cause less service to these areas, this would be have a detrimental effect on a lot of seniors — and especially in Atlantic Canada and in the Prairies.
The Chairman: You have investigated rural transportation issues of seniors and found that mobility within their community is not their most critical issue. Can you tell us about intercity transportation concerns, such as travelling to larger urban centres for medical treatment, for example?
Ms Raymaker: I think that with the regionalization of health within urban centres, you will find that for treatment or diagnostic procedures, seniors are required to travel into the urban centres. This is not even from rural or remote areas. I would say this is from suburbia. I am thinking of a place like Toronto. That is, of course, a community bus, but still, many of those providers are intercity buses that do come in from the suburban areas. You have to pay attention to the fact of what is happening in the health care system is forcing seniors to rely on intercity buses to get health care actually.
The Chairman: You have mentioned a number of rural transportation programs in the community of Antigonish, Nova Scotia, the program for mobility to the disadvantaged in Manitoba and the Rural Transportation Assistance Program, the RTAP, in Saskatchewan.
Have you been able to identify some key aspects of successful rural transportation assistance programs?
Ms Raymaker: I will defer to our manager of knowledge development because she does the research.
Ms Louise Plouffe, Manager, Knowledge Development Section, Division of Aging and Seniors, Health Canada: I do not have an answer right now. I will take note of the question and get back to the Senate committee.
Senator Spivak: In reading at your brief and listening to what you have said, I do not understand how you can reconcile deregulation with the needs of seniors. It is obvious to me that if there will be deregulation that means there will have to be a profit. If there must be a profit, how are these rural and remote areas going to be served? It will be hard to make a profit.
I know you have tried to answer by saying, maybe, but not necessarily, but is that really your view? Can you not really come down on one side or the other?
Ms Raymaker: I think we came down on the side of the seniors. The seniors require that it needs to be affordable, it needs to be in the rural areas and it needs to be safe. The providers probably will say, ``We cannot afford all of that stuff for small vans. Or we cannot give the same kind of safety.'' Would we accept that?
Senator Spivak: I take your point of view. In other words, you are saying that you might accept deregulation if all of that were taken care of and encased in stone. We deregulated the airlines thinking we would get lower fares and competition — look what happened.
Ms Raymaker: I wish I had an answer for you. I am speaking here on behalf of what seniors need.
Senator Spivak: I appreciate that.
Senator Adams: What are you more concerned about — transportation by bus to see your doctor or transportation to go shopping? How many kilometres are you talking about? Sometimes I have to see my doctor at a clinic for treatment. In the city, this can be very difficult. Living in the Arctic, everything is very close. Even for health visits we can take them to a nearby nursing station. In the city, it is very complicated. We had a witness the other day who had a good business running small vans to take people to Toronto airport 24 hours a day from smaller communities. I think that is a little different from taking a patient to the hospital. What do you see as the future for the busing of the elderly?
Ms Raymaker: Are you talking about remote communities? I think you start dividing the problem into rural and smaller communities and then we are talking remote. I appreciate the vastness of the North and the areas that you have to cover. From a personal viewpoint, seniors can suffer from extreme depression, loneliness and isolation if they are not getting to see their families and friends. When a medical problem occurs, if there is a crisis we would look after it through the health care system. I think what we are looking at is generally seniors in good health who may have to go for diagnostic care — they are the ones relying on that kind of transportation.
What is more important? I think they are all equally important. I want to point out that, even though it looks like you are going shopping or you are going here and there, the independence of seniors is valued so highly that, once they lose that, a whole other set of problems occurs. I appreciate that we will not have private providers in remote areas.
Senator Adams: What about the nurses? Would it be easier to have a nurse come around in a car when you do not have to see the doctor?
Ms Raymaker: I agree.
Senator Adams: You are talking about people aged 80 years and over. Are you concerned about the drivers licence for elderly people travelling in their retirement? Right now, is transportation stricter for the elderly? I know some people are concerned about seniors over 90 of age still having a drivers licence. Do you have anything to say about that?
Ms Raymaker: We have looked at a little of it. I cannot give you an answer. Drivers' licensing is an issue with the senior population today. We have some information on it and we would be more than happy to provide it to you. Maybe Ms Plouffe could fill you in with some more detail.
Ms Plouffe: The Law Commission of Canada has just released a major study looking at older drivers. It looks at the needs and capacities of older drivers, their age and driving ability. It looks at the legislation across the country, which is all over the map. It is even more complicated than intercity busing.
Senator Adams: In the Arctic, we do not have regular doctors. Doctors travel from Winnipeg to the community to give people a check-up. Does the system work in rural areas — those with, say 50 or 100 people? We have dentists, doctors and people who do X-rays come in to our Arctic community on a scheduled basis. We do not have a hospital in the community. How would stuff that like work?
Ms Raymaker: I do not think intercity busing in the remote areas is feasible because I do not know that you could even interest a provider up there from that perspective. I recognize that you have huge challenges in that area.
Senator Phalen: Since I joined this committee, I decided that I would take a few bus rides. I took the bus and the subway in Toronto; I took the bus in Halifax and in Ottawa just to see what it was about. I am a senior. Some of the difficulties that I found was that, if you are in a strange area and you do not know exactly where your stop is, it is a problem. One of your suggestions state:
That for people who work for bus companies, including bus drivers, training should include education of the needs and capacities of older persons. This training should include information on appropriate communication methods.
What do you mean by that?
Ms Raymaker: Considering some of the disabilities that seniors might have, first, people could be terribly impatient with them. One example, someone could come to the bus station and may not be communicating clearly. They may have had a stroke or something, but they are still mobile but they have trouble communicating from that perspective. That could be one example. If people are not talking the way they think you should be talking, they talk louder. It is an embarrassing situation for seniors.
Education of personnel across the board is important, but specifically the bus drivers because they are on the front lines — they are meeting these riders. If seniors have confidence that the bus driver knows some of the issues surrounding their problems, I think that would go a long way.
As far as where you are going or what stop, I must admit I have not been on a city bus for a long time. I cannot even understand the city bus. I agree with you. If you were trying to get around in unfamiliar areas, it would be hard to understand the local transportation system.
Senator Phalen: I used the bus in Toronto. If not for the fact that I was going right to the end of the line, I would not have known where I was going. When I got on the subway, it was different because the person on the subway announced every stop, and the stop lit up to tell you where you were. You do not get that on a bus, at least, not the ones I was on. I talked to the driver, who was a lady driver, and she was very helpful. She announced when my stop came.
I thought maybe what you are talking about here is that buses should announce stops. It is difficult to ride on a bus when you do not know the area or where you are going, unless someone tells you where you are.
That is just an observation in respect to seniors. I am sure that they would have the same problem.
You mentioned other problems for seniors with disabilities who need to use intercity bus transportation, including entering and exiting, and moving around the terminal. With respect to people with disabilities, I asked the question here the other night, and I think they indicated they had two spaces on a bus. Do you think that is adequate?
Ms Raymaker: Probably not, with the changing demographics, but that would be something you would pay attention to in terms of seniors' disabilities in the future. Is the bus with two spaces for disabled people an intercity bus or a local one?
Senator Phalen: I think it was intercity. Just to continue that, as far as spacing goes on the subways, I noticed a sign and a section for seniors. It was designated for seniors. Seniors were not always sitting in those spots, but I assumed if subways were full, that seniors had a preference in those seats. I do not see that on buses.
Ms Raymaker: I made the comment that communications, telecommunications and making it all senior friendly are important. If a subway can do it, intercity buses should be able to do it. You have noticed a real discrepancy between the two.
The Chairman: Ms Raymaker, have you made any representation to the Canadian Bus Association about the needs of senior citizens, similar to what you have done today?
Ms Raymaker: No, I sit around the table with the industry at the Advisory Committee on Accessible Transportation. I have brought up a number of these issues, but they have never asked the National Advisory Council on Aging per se as users. I would be more than prepared, and I do know some of those players, if they wanted to hear from us. I usually get NACA's issues on the table at that particular advisory group.
The Chairman: They can read the transcript of what has happened today. Pages 7 and 8 in your presentation are very interesting with respect to signage, people who work for bus companies, training, education, the needs and capacities of older persons. Those are important issues for the busing industry.
Ms Raymaker: The intercity bus industry is well aware of that. I say it to them, and it will not be the first time they have heard it. They have heard that from the disabled community.
Seniors have a complicated set of disabilities, compared with a younger person who has had a car accident and is a paraplegic. They learn to live with the disability and they can accommodate some of it. However, with seniors it is a little bit less every day. I think there is not an appreciation of that. We have worked with the industry on intercity codes of practice, with which I think you are all familiar.
There are 12 national seniors organizations. We have been working together to try to get the one message out regarding seniors, and they represent about 2 million seniors in their membership alone. We are part of that group. They have five issues, and one is transportation. I want to impress upon this committee how important it is for seniors that they have transportation. It is vital to their independence and their needs.
The Chairman: I encourage you to give them a copy of your presentation. I think it is interesting. It will be helpful when we prepare our recommendations.
Thank you very much, Ms Raymaker, for your presence here. We do appreciate it.
Ms Raymaker: Thank you very much. We will get back with some of the answers you require.
The committee adjourned.