Proceedings of the Subcommittee on
Veterans Affairs
Issue 3 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Wednesday, December 5, 2001
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 5:45 p.m. to examine and report on the health care provided to veterans of war and of peacekeeping missions; the implementation of the recommendations made in its previous reports on such matters; and the terms of service, post-discharge benefits and health care of members of the regular and reserve forces as well as members of the RCMP and of civilians who have served in close support of uniformed peacekeepers.
Senator Michael A. Meighen (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Perhaps we can begin. We have Senator Wiebe here, who is known to most of you. He is certainly a senator we would not want to start the meeting without. My name is Michael Meighen and I am chair of the subcommittee.
I welcome all of you and thank you for being with us today. We are grateful for giving us a brief that we had the opportunity to read. My understanding is that it will be your intention to make preliminary remarks. Please proceed.
Mr. Matthew Coon Come, National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I will present the overview, followed by Chief Perry Bellegarde and then Chief Howard Anderson. Tony Coté, who is a veteran, Mr. Whiteduck and Paulette Tremblay are also with us at the table.
Honourable senators, I wish to thank the chair and members of the subcommittee. We appreciate the opportunity to address you today about the series concerns facing First Nations veterans. The voices of our veterans must be heard and must be respected by the Government of Canada. These are people who served their country in its time of need. These are people who did not have to serve but who chose to serve.
Status First Nations citizens are exempt from military service through their treaties and with the Government of Canada. Regardless of the exemption, thousands of men and women volunteered and placed their lives on the line in the First World War, the Second World War and the Korean conflict.
First Nations soldiers and veterans have an honourable and proud history of military service. Treaty and status Indians have the highest per capita participation rate of any ethnic group from Canada in both world wars. First Nations veterans made many sacrifices. Some made the ultimate sacrifice in giving their lives for this country, but there were other sacrifices.
In some cases First Nations veterans were encouraged to enfranchise, meaning they were encouraged to renounce their status to join the Armed Forces. Some First Nations veterans even lost their Indian status when they joined the military. They lost all their rights and benefits that come with that status. This is an important and unrecognized sacrifice made by our veterans.
Our veterans fought wars for the Crown and for democracy, yet they encountered systematic and inequitable treatment when those wars were over. In particular, the federal government provided benefits to non-First Nations veterans that were not made available or not made easily accessible to First Nations veterans, such as land grants, education, retraining and loans. In some cases, First Nations lands were expropriated to compensate non-First Nations veterans.
On the battlefield, First Nations and non-First Nations soldiers stood side by side. They fought as equals and in some cases died as equals. However, once they landed on the shores of Canada, First Nations soldiers were quickly relegated to second-class status.
The Canadian government was not willing to treat First Nations soldiers as equals and give them the full recognition they so richly deserved. For example, First Nations veterans from World War II felt they had been misled or coerced into accepting minimal benefits that were restricted to First Nations reserves, even though they were legally entitled to much more valuable offers such as off-reserve farm loans, grants and educational funds.
Benefits accorded to the average Canadian soldier under the Veterans Charter were not readily available to the First Nations soldier. We can look at the example of the Veterans Land Act. Non-First Nation veterans could purchase land from Canada with a small loan from the federal government, but First Nations soldiers who applied for the loan were told they were limited to Certificates for Possession in the purchasing of reserve land.
First Nations veterans could not and still do not understand why they had to purchase land that belonged to them in the first place. Many First Nations veterans from across Canada experienced the same inequalities and discriminatory practices.
Some of the benefits denied to our veterans were very substantial. One economic study undertaken by an economist, Doug Kalisnakoff, from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, shows that the farm start-up benefits granted in Saskatchewan to non-First Nations veterans are now worth between $88,000 and $368,000 per veteran. In his analysis, Mr. Kalisnakoff estimates the value of "missed opportunity," or the possible value today if the benefits had been granted to First Nations veterans at the same time they were granted to non-first Nation veterans ranges from $250,000 to $650,000 in current dollars.
Administering the benefits for First Nations veterans was a complex process that involved overlapping jurisdictions of three federal departments, and a heavy reliance on the Indian agent. There is evidence that many Indian agents did not tell First Nations veterans of all their available options, but only what the agent thought they should receive. Indian agents had almost total control over the First Nations veteran's re-establishment and had an enormous scope for independent action, or inaction as the case may be.
Today the Assembly of First Nations has complied a database of an estimated 800 surviving First Nations veterans and 1,000 surviving spouses. Time is of the essence. Veterans who fought in World War II are on average 80 years and older, and those who fought in Korea are, on average, 70 years and older.
In case of our veterans, justice delayed will be justice denied. We ask that the federal government acknowledge the urgency for a comprehensive settlement for First Nations veterans, spouses and dependents. This must be a priority given the age of First Nations veterans and those who are passing on, on a daily basis.
First Nations veterans went to war and fought for this country, for justice. Since the wars they have unfortunately been fighting Canada to obtain fairness and justice. Many veterans have died before seeing justice served, and their widows continue to be denied.
We must work together to resolve these outstanding grievances. Our veterans are only asking for fair and equitable treatment. Surely the Government of Canada cannot deny them the benefits as other Canadians. You have the power and the obligation to correct this injustice. Thank you very much.
Mr. Perry Bellegarde, Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations Chief and AFN Vice-Chief: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good evening honourable senators. I have a prepared text so I will go to this and make a few comments later.
I am from the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations, and I am Vice-Chief of the Assembly of First Nations from the Saskatchewan region and I am responsible for the veterans' portfolio.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to address the Senate subcommittee regarding the compelling issue of compensation for First Nations veterans who courageously stepped forward to volunteer their services for Canada during World War II and the Korean War.
Many of the points I will raise today come from the final report that was distributed to the members of the subcommittee. The report was written by Dr. Scot Sheffield and was called "A Search for Equity, A Study of the Treatment Accorded to First Nations Veterans and Dependents of the Second World War and Korea."
If we step back in time to remember the urgent requirement for Canada to send members of the Armed Forces to engage in battle against Nazi Germany in the Second World War, historical records show that thousands of First Nations men and women volunteered to serve in every theatre in the Canadian Armed Forces.
This was also the case from 1950 to 1953, when Canada contributed to the collective security promised by the new United Nations by sending Canadian troops to fight in the Korean War.
Evidence indicated that hundreds of First Nations men and women enlisted to fight communism in Korea, and it gives me a deep sense of pride and honour to say that in times of need there was an incredible response from First Nations people. It is clear that they took the challenge, and they stepped forward with dedication and determination to play a crucial role in joining other Canadians in destroying the evils of totalitarianism and oppression. They made impressive sacrifices and contributions to help the nation in its efforts to restore world peace. They are the First Nations heroes of our time.
Almost as soon as the Second World War broke out, the federal government began planning for post-war reconstruction. Many of these measures were in place by 1944. The social safety net included a generous array of benefits for returning veterans to ease their transition back to civilian life. Thanks to the employment, financial support and educational opportunities provided by the Veterans Charter, most of the million-plus veterans in Canada were able to significantly benefit from and contribute to the three decades of prosperity that were to follow.
Using the analogy from the final report, it reads:
...but sadly, as the train left the station in the first few years after the end of the war, many First Nations veterans were unable to get aboard.I want to make the point here that they were equals fighting over the great water we say, but when they came back they became Indians again. By that I mean they became Indians under the Indian agent and the oppression of the Indian Act and the control of that Indian agent.
The most pressing issue I would like to stress today was that during the crucial first 10 years after 1945, when First Nations veterans were re-establishing themselves as civilians, they experienced inequitable treatment and unfair access to keep post-war opportunities and benefits outlined in the Veterans Charter.
As a means to address the mistreatment, hardships and struggles of these First Nations veterans, First Nations leaders and veterans initiated a process with the intention to obtain a comprehensive financial compensation package from the federal government. Our delegation is here today to seek your support for this initiative.
While meetings began in 1999, and have been ongoing throughout 2000-01, I would like to highlight some of the key events that have taken place in the last three years to achieve our goal of obtaining financial compensation for First Nations veterans their spouses and dependents.
In 1999, officials from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, (DIAND), the Department of Veterans Affairs Canada, (DVA), the Department of National Defence, (DND) and the Assembly of First Nations, (AFN), met and formally agreed to set up a national round table working group to investigate and document allegations of mistreatment of First Nations veterans upon their return from World War II and the Korean War.
In June 2000, a national First Nations veterans gathering was held in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. First Nations veterans made the decision to participate in the national round table process, as opposed to litigation. They agreed to get involved with this political process to bring about a resolution to their mistreatment.
In August 2000, the Assembly of First Nations hired a national veterans coordinator who established a national First Nations veterans round table committee that consisted of 10 representatives from the AFN's regions across Canada. I will list the people involved, all of them are First Nations veterans: From British Columbia, Mr. Alec Thomas; from Alberta, Helen Gladue; from Manitoba, Mr. Dwayne Whitecloud and Brenda Bignell-Arnault; from Ontario, Mr. Ray Rogers; from Quebec, Mr. Clarence Chabot; from Nova Scotia, Mr. John Pictou; and from Saskatchewan, Mr. Tony Coté. The chair of the round table was Grand Chief Howard Anderson.
They developed a national database with the names of First Nations veterans who participated in World War II and the Korean War. To date, there are 800 First Nations veterans and approximately 1,000 spouses and dependants who are still living.
They worked with the round table committee members to document the experience of First Nations veterans and hired a researcher to produce the findings in the final report. The report "A Search for Equity" was ratified in April 2001.
The national First Nations veterans round table committee also supported the implementation of a lobby strategy to gain the support of the House of Commons, the Senate and the general public. Letters were sent to ministers, members of Parliament and the Cabinet Committee on Social Union.
The report is a consensus document by the three departments that I have already mentioned. In it we are saying, "Here are the wrongs written in black and white. Now come up with the ways and means to rectify the wrongs clearly identified in this document."
On April 19, 2001, the First Nations veterans round table committee passed a resolution to request financial compensation in the amount of $425,000 for each veteran, widow, spouse, dependant or estate. Our resolution recommended that the federal government acknowledge the increasing urgency to resolve this matter promptly given the age of First Nations veterans.
In June 2001, resolution 15/01 was passed at the AFN annual general assembly in Halifax to support the establishment of a national First Nations veterans association. Action on this is well underway.
In October 2001, separate meetings were held with senior officials from DIAND, Veterans Affairs Canada, DND, First Nations veterans and with Minister Ron Duhamel. It was indicated that the option of a compensation package of $425,000 was much too high. The government's position was that any potential compensation package would have to be similar to what was paid to other groups. This ranged from $15,000 to $24,000.
First Nations veterans gathered to discuss whether or not $20,000 to $24,000 would be an acceptable amount for financial compensation. They made the decision that this amount was not acceptable. They wanted the option, of course, of the $425,000 to go forward to cabinet for consideration. It was emphasized that it was not up to the AFN or the national First Nations veterans round table committee to decide whether or not to accept what the government offered. The decision would have to be made by First Nations veterans. It was up to them to decide what they would do.
To that end the Minister of Veterans Affairs was asked to financially support a gathering of the veterans once an announcement was made. Thus, a proposal has been submitted to his office for consideration. Minister Duhamel stated that the target date of November 11, 2001, was still the date that was set to make a public announcement regarding the compensation package. He also said that we should continue to work together to move the file forward and that it was important for all of us to carry on with lobby efforts with ministers and senators.
I want to make the point that Minister Duhamel continues to be supportive to see this matter resolved. It is just a matter of time as to how we work it through the system.
The Chairman: Can you tell me where the November 11 date came from?
Mr. Bellegarde: We were trying to shoot for that in terms of a target date. By consensus, we will try to work toward that. We know that the government moves slowly. Cabinet is slow. The minister phoned me on November 9 to assure me that it was close, although he may not be able to make the announcement on November 11. I asked if he had to wait for the budget or if he could do it before that. He said that, hopefully, he could do it before. That was the response. It is a work in progress.
November 11 has come and gone. As time marches on, there is a very real possibility that more of our First Nations veterans will be not be here to benefit from the compensation that will be provided.
On this point, last night, two veterans passed away. We honoured them in a moment of silence at our confederacy here. One was my uncle. Sandy Beardy from Manitoba died, and my uncle Bruno Bellegarde from Saskatchewan died as well.
Senator Wiebe: If I may interject, part of the urgency for the announcement being made is, once the announcement is made the commitment has been made. The amount of the settlement may not be there.
However, had the announcement been made yesterday, prior to the passing away of these two veterans, their estates would have been eligible for whatever figure had been arrived at. The longer we put that date off, the longer this question lingers. I hope you do not mind my explanation.
The Chairman: This is an important point. Is there anything that you are aware of to prevent a declaration, by whomever the proper authority would be, to say that anyone living as of, not necessarily today or tomorrow, but let us say for the sake of argument a year ago, that they or their estates would be eligible?
Mr. Bellegarde: I will come back to that point.
Based upon evidence in the final report, First Nations veterans appeared to have received first level benefits that were provided during the discharge process. These included: a medical examination, a dental examination, discharge papers, a clothing allowance, a rehabilitation grant, transportation and the war service gratuity, both basic and supplementary.
It appeared that First Nations veterans were also able to access third level benefits that included access to their old jobs, civil service jobs, awaiting-return grants, unemployment insurance, veterans insurance, health benefits, pensions and out-of-work benefits. However, it is likely that some First Nations veterans who might have qualified and been helped by benefits such as awaiting-returns or out-of-work allowances may not have been aware of them.
Inequities and unfair access to key post-war opportunities and benefits for First Nations veterans occurred with second level benefits. It is crucial to note that these were the three primary benefits meant to help veteran's re-establish themselves and give them a head start in civilian life. They included re-establishment credits, educational and vocational training and the Veterans' Land Act. Grand Chief Anderson will provide further information about these second level benefits.
It is now time for Canada to step forward with honour and respect to acknowledge the mistreatment of First Nations veterans upon their return from World War II and the Korean War and to provide them with a fair and just compensation package in an expeditious manner. It is time for Canada to honour the First Nations heroes of our time.
Thank you for the opportunity to present our view on this crucial initiative.
That was the written text, Mr. Chairman. I will summarize it this way. Our veterans are equals. When they came back they fell under the regime of the Indian agent. I have said there are four main issues. One issue is land; they could not own land in fee simple title; they could not pass the land on to their children or their grandchildren. They were granted the right to use the land already on the Indian reserve. That was collectively held land. There is now an issue concerning the land that the veterans used; members of the band feel that the land was theirs and it could not be given to the veterans. That has been a contentious issue.
Another issue had to do with the amount of land. They were given $2,320 to settle the land versus $6,000 that other veterans might have been able to access. In some cases, that did not happen at all, they got zero. Some might have accessed it, but not all of them. They were not aware of it. The big kicker was the spousal benefit. If I was a veteran across the water fighting, my wife should be looked after, up to $80 a month. In the Indian agent's case, they kept the money. It was not passed on to the spouses. This happened in the majority of cases because they controlled the Indian agent. It never got passed on.
Another point was missed opportunity and missed benefits because they were not aware that they could go for training. The agent said, "You must hunt, fish, trap or gather." That was it.
That is the difference between what other veterans might have been eligible for but they were not. They did not experience that oppression of the Indian agent. They did not experience that discrimination and that control. Thus, there is a big difference between what other veterans' organizations might have got and what these men and women could have received as well.
In February 2000, the first terms of reference were agreed to. It was on February 1, 2000, when we got the three federal government departments, our First Nations veterans and our organization to say, "Let's deal with this now." We have said, and I have said it, too, so it is no secret to the bureaucrats here, "Any compensation package for any veteran or spouse who dies from February 1 on should flow to their estate because that was when we said we will deal with the issue."
The Chairman: What date was that again?
Mr. Bellegarde: February 1, 2000. That was our position. I asked Minister Duhamel to put that in writing for clarification. All along I have been saying that it will take time to do the study and the report. That is fine. The consensus document is still taking time. However, veterans and their spouses are dying.
This package, whatever it will be, will apply to 1,800 people. There are 800 surviving veterans and 1,000 spouses. Perhaps, some of it will go to their estates.
I want to acknowledge the hard work of some of the bureaucrats. There is Mr. Mike Bouliane from DND, Mr. Brent Dibartello and some of the senior officials, Ms Line Paré from INAC, along with Mr. Dennis Wallace, who is no longer there, but when he was the ADM he was instrumental in moving this file forward. There was also Mr. Bryson Guptil from the Department of Veterans Affairs, as well as Ms Verna Bruce. These were the people our officials met with as well. There were others, but those were the key players who helped with this. This is a consensus document. Now it is time.
Mr. Howard Anderson, Chair of the First Nations Veterans Roundtable and Grand Chief of First Nations Veterans: Before we start, I must point out that our problem is with DIAND and not with Veterans Affairs Canada. The reason is that DIAND passed the problem on to Veterans Affairs. They will say, "We gave the merchant navy $21,000, so that is what the First Nations veterans should get." We are discriminated against. We should be going up against DIAND; they are the ones who should be paying the shot, not Veterans Affairs Canada. They are using that as a lever to give us less money and that should not be the case. Once again, the government is discriminating against us. This issue is the responsibility of the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. Mr. Chairman, now that I got that off my chest I will move on.
As one of the remaining First Nations veterans who served in the Second World War, it is my privilege to share with you the way First Nations veterans were treated upon returning home from the war. I will recount to you what it was like for a First Nation veteran to re-establish him- or herself in civilian life. The fact is we were not really re-established; DIAND re-established us. These findings have been documented in the final report of "A Search for Equity."
It is important to remember that First Nations veterans were proud to serve in the First and Second World Wars and the Korean War. Our soldiers experienced culture shock; many of us had never been off the reserve. They had to overcome great cultural changes to make the appropriate adjustments for military life. Everything was new to us. We volunteered to fight for this country and our soldiers and veterans demonstrated the bravery of all our warriors who fought before us. They did what had to be done. Many of our brothers did not return from the wars. They made the ultimate sacrifice and remain buried in cemeteries in Europe. First Nations veterans across the country honour them by participating in regional and national First Nations associations that remember them.
For those of us who returned from the war we expected to be treated the same as other Canadians. We expected the same benefits. The objective of the Veterans Charter was to provide veterans with an opportunity to make a living. However, the reality is that we were not treated the same when we began the awesome task of re-establishing ourselves with the benefits of the Veterans Charter.
Once discharged Canadian veterans fell under the jurisdiction of Veterans Affairs Canada, this was not true for First Nations veterans. They were told to return to their reserves and see their Indian agents about their benefits. From this point onward, First Nations veterans received discriminatory treatment.
With the complexity of the Veterans Charter and its administration and the dependence on the Indian agent to supply accurate details of programs and unbiased advise in a timely and efficient fashion, evidence shows that First Nations veterans faced systemic disadvantages not faced by other veterans. For example, the Indian agent could significantly influence, limit or even block First Nations veterans' access to benefits.
Archival records revealed that many Indian agents and departmental officials held dominant attitudes and low opinions of the capabilities of First Nations people. These, in turn, produced barriers that prevented many First Nations veterans from receiving full value from the Veterans Charter.
Veterans testified that the Indian Affairs Branch officials told them what they were going to be given, not what they were qualified or entitled to get.
Veterans were almost uniform in asserting that they received little to no information from DND or DVA. The actions taken by IAB personnel were not uniform regarding the establishment of the veterans to their best advantage.
For the most part, inequities were experienced when they applied for level two benefits to help them re-establish themselves in civilian life. They could apply for either a re-establishment credit or for agricultural re-establishment through the Veterans' Land Act or for educational training, none of which was available for First Nations people.
The Veterans' Land Act of 1942 enabled qualified veterans to settle on a piece of land and take up agriculture as a full-time operation or as an income supplement on a small holding hobby farm. Originally, the act provided loans of up to $4,800. However, this was increased to a maximum of $6,000 by the end of the war. If the loan was repaid on schedule and in full, the government was to forgive $2,320 of the $6,000.
The option existed to use the loan to re-establish veterans in commercial logging or lumber milling. Legal hurdles barred First Nations veterans from accessing this option. For example: section 164 of the Indian Act forbade First Nations from homesteading outside their reserve; and First Nations veterans lacked the credit ratings required to obtain loans of this nature.
In 1945, an amendment to the VLA was made, and through section 35(a) First Nations veterans could obtain a grant of $2,320 to settle on reserve land. To qualify, they were required to have a location ticket to a specific tract of reserve land or a band resolution to confirm their ownership of the land. I have a location ticket here with the signatures of one chief and one counsellor.
First Nations were angry at being barred from the loan provisions of the VLA and skeptical about the advantages of reserve conditions. They were being given a piece of reserve land that was already collectively theirs as a member of the band. Despite this, more than half of the First Nations veterans eventually received a VLA grant. However, there were still obstacles that First Nations veterans had to overcome.
Due to the limited amount of land available on reserves, land requirements were reduced from two to three acres to half an acre per veteran in early 1950. The limited land base on many reserves proved a serious obstacle to expanding operations, making it impossible to build prosperous agricultural operations.
The grant was paid to the Minister of Mines and Resources, who administered the funds in trust for First Nations veterans. The Department of Mines and Resources was responsible for the Indian Affairs Branch (IAB) at the time. Indian agents could significantly influence the amount and manner of money spent by veterans from the grant, or whether veterans could access the entire amount available.
Many veterans still contend that they did not receive the full amount due to the actions or inactions of their agents. There was evidence that inadequacies in the administration of the purchasing did occur, to the detriment of First Nations veterans. The Indian agent effectively controlled the gate to the VLA and allowed through only those he deemed fit.
Indian Affairs made it a policy to dissuade First Nations veterans from taking their re-establishment credit, or facilitated the payback of the credit so the veterans could qualify for a VLA grant.
Agents and superiors in Ottawa used VLA money as a means to provide veterans with housing rather than as an agricultural re-establishment measure.
Very few First Nations veterans appear to have chosen technical, vocational training or university education. First Nations veterans indicated that Indian agents never told them about this option or dissuaded them or blocked them from accessing this option. Unfortunately, these are the missed opportunities that limited the potential contribution of First Nations veterans.
Another issue of great concern to First Nations veterans related to the Dependents' Allowance Program. While engaged in active duty in the Armed Forces, military personnel were provided with living allowances for their dependants to alleviate hardships while they were away fighting. The Department of National Defence established the Dependants Allowance Board (DAB) to administer this allowance. However, officials from IAB expressed grave concerns about this. It was recommended that the cheques be mailed to First Nations dependants via the Indian agent or that the money be paid directly to the Indian Affairs Branch in trust for the dependants. Thus, the Dependants Allowance Board mailed allowance cheques to the Indian agent with few guidelines or no accounting procedures; this created opportunities for mismanagement abuse of power, and criminal fraud. Archival records revealed strong circumstantial evidence of irregularities.
First Nations soldiers and dependants maintained that they ran into problems getting all the money they were due, and some said that money was not passed on by the agent.
It now is time for Canada to do the right thing on behalf of the First Nations veterans. It is time to write the final chapter and end the story of this long struggle for acknowledgement and compensation with a positive conclusion that honours us all.
The Chairman: Thank you. Are there other comments? Then we will begin with Senator Wiebe.
Senator Wiebe: My first question is for Mr. Coon Come. On page 3 of your presentation, you mentioned that some First Nations veterans even lost their Indian status when they joined the military.
Could you explain how that could happen? The majority of the First Nations that joined were able to keep their Indian status. Why were some not able to do that?
Mr. Coon Come: There was a policy that at that time was called enfranchisement. In order to receive benefits or be able to participate in the war, there was encouragement by the officials to enfranchise people without realizing they lost their status. When they came back from the battlefield they would not be able to benefit. That is why Howard Anderson is giving us an outline of the loss of those benefits. That was unfortunate and it was an abuse of authority and power.
Senator Wiebe: There is no doubt they lost their benefits. That is evident in this report. To lose your Indian status was pretty serious. I think that is far worse than any loss of benefits. This is news to me. If that actually happened, I certainly want to know about it.
Mr. Anderson: I have information at the office about a veteran from Montreal Lake who lost his status.
Mr. Bellegarde: It was an enfranchise policy of INAC. For example, if I got a degree I would lose my status. If I became a preacher I would lose my status as an Indian under the Indian Act. In some cases the Indian agent had that power. You become like the rest of the Canadian people as a soldier. It did happen. That has to be documented. Loss of status is another issue. You would have to do another study to find out how many people applied for it.
Senator Wiebe: It upsets me that that may have happened. From your comments, this is not so much the work of DND, DVA, or IAB, but more the doing of the Indian agent.
Mr. Anderson: Definitely. It is too bad they had that power. They enfranchised someone but they were supposed to go to Ottawa to get it verified. None of them ever did. One veteran bought a house. Within two weeks an Indian agent came to the house and said he had broken the law because he bought a house on the reserve.
Senator Wiebe: Chief Bellegarde, you can send me that, please.
Mr. Anderson: Yes.
Senator Wiebe: In doing research on this, and this emphasizes the role that the Indian agent played, I found that there were approximately eight First Nations people who were allowed to qualify for the $6,000 loan and purchase land off the reserve. The policy was there, the problem was the Indian agent. Another problem that none of you mentioned today, but I understand from reading this book, was that our First Nations veterans, upon return, were basically barred from joining the Veterans Association.
Mr. Anderson: Yes, because we could not drink beer.
Senator Wiebe: The majority of the information on the benefits being handed out to non-native veterans came out of the Veterans Associations across Canada. The fact they were barred from joining and becoming a member removed them from the information that would otherwise be available.
Mr. Tony Coté, Veterans Coordinator, Saskatchewan Indian Veterans Association: The Legion branches were supposed to assist ex-servicemen as they came out of the service. They would not do this for the Indian veterans; I tried to get help from them. The moment you walked into a Legion branch and they saw your brown face, they would say, "You are an Indian. You are not allowed here," because they were serving liquor. How were we to find out exactly what was available to us as veterans? Were post-war benefits made available to the non-Indian veterans?
We could not get that information. The Indian agent did not know what vocational training was available for us. I wanted to upgrade myself and I could not do that because I got on the wrong side of the Indian agent and the farm instructor. I could not proceed any further.
The other thing that non-Indian veterans received were preferential treatment into the labour force. How were we to get preferential treatment to get into the labour force? We could not because we were stuck on a reserve. You had to get a permit to leave the reserve to seek employment.
The Chairman: Was there anyone else besides the Indian agent who could remove the status?
Mr. Anderson: He was supposed to go to the government. He was supposed to come to Ottawa to the IAB to say, "I have kicked this man out." They were supposed to get that authority from Ottawa.
The Chairman: Would you get a letter?
Mr. Anderson: All you would get was a letter from the Indian agent and he would kick you out.
Mr. Coté: It was supposed to have been sent up to national headquarters for approval by the top man in this area.
The Chairman: Are there any Indian agents? I forget when they went out of existence, but are there any still around?
Mr. Coon Come: They do have Indian agents who are still there now and they have full authority.
Mr. Anderson: When our people got discharged from the army, they took all the veterans and put them in a big room, in a drill hall, and started to tell them what was available. Once they told them all that, they put them into groups and told them to go here and there. All the treaty Indians were told to go to their agent. They never heard what was available because they were kicked out of that room. It was the same across Canada.
There was one guy in Vancouver Island who said he wanted to use my $2,320 to go to university. They would not let him. They bought him a boat and told him to go fishing, because he would have to get off the reserve to go to school and they would not let him do that.
Mr. Coté: What the Grand Chief was talking about here is informational sessions available to non-Indian soldiers. As soon as they noticed there were some First Nations veterans in there, they would ask them to leave. That was another reason why we never really knew what was available to us.
The Chairman: I suppose the theory was that the Indian agent was supposed to give all those explanations.
Mr. Anderson: Yes.
The Chairman: I understand that that did not happen.
Mr. Coté: The other thing that no one talks about is that those Indian agents were ex-army officers and that is why they had strict discipline on those reserves. They were very regimental. When you are in the armed services you toe the line. That is how they treated the Indian people. There was strict discipline. If you confronted them, you were no good. "Do not come back to me and start demanding." We did not get anything.
Senator Day: I hope you will forgive me if my questions seem to be pretty elementary. I am trying to educate myself on this issue. What you have said is helpful, and disappointing and shocking to hear that this sort of thing has gone on. The more you can do to educate me and expand on my questions, please feel free to jump in.
Do you have a figure of how many First Nations Indians in total joined in the First World War, Second World War and Korean War effort?
Mr. Coté: There were 4,000 in the First World War, 4,000 in the Second World War, and several hundred First Nations soldiers joined the Korean War. All total, there was approximately 15,000 First Nations people that served in the Armed Forces. Not all joined the army; we had some in the navy and air force as well.
Mr. Anderson: An Indian could join only the army in the First World War. You could not join the navy or air force.
Senator Day: We are talking about on-reserve and off-reserve?
Mr. Coté: I am talking about status Indians right across Canada.
Senator Day: Do you know if the Canadian government came on the reserves to recruit?
Mr. Anderson: They used the Indian agent. I hate to say the Indian agent did everything. The Indian agent would say that if you join the army, your wife will get money. They never did get it. We have never found it. They said they put it in trust when they were buying war bonds. We have never found any money in trust at DIAND. We never found the money that the Indian agents hung on to. All they used to get were vouchers.
Senator Day: Do you believe that the Indian agent as an agent of the Canadian government actually encouraged status, on-reserve Indians to enlist?
Mr. Coté: Yes.
Mr. Anderson: We have a report that we can give to you. It is Alastair Sweeney's 1979 study "Government Policy and Saskatchewan Indian Veterans."
Senator Day: What seems quite important to me is the beginning of the contract with Canada. They are asking you to go do something and making promises, and they have breached the contract.
Mr. Anderson: They have told us, "Your wife will get money if you go to the army."
The Chairman: Senator Day is quite a good lawyer.
Mr. Coté: We have gone through our search for issues and the Dependents Allowance is an important issue to us. There was a letter that came from one of the Indian agents stating that an Indian woman was not worth the full amount of the Dependants Allowance. He wrote that he would much prefer that the Indian be reduced to $20 a month, whereas the non-Indian women were getting anywhere from $79 to $80 a month.
Senator Day: We have that. That will be helpful in your negotiations.
Mr. Coté: It is contained in our Sweeney Report.
Senator Day: Is this problem of the man from Montreal Lake who lost his status a major issue?
Mr. Anderson: That was in Montreal Lake, Saskatchewan. In Northern Manitoba that many veterans lost their status.
Mr. Coté: More than one.
Senator Day: Is this an issue then?
Mr. Bellegarde: It is another issue that we can work on.
Mr. Coon Come: There are pockets all across Canada.
Senator Day: Of those First Nation members who were status on reserve before they went to the war and then lost their status when they came back, do you believe that they were treated any different from any other returning veterans?
Mr. Anderson: Some of them got their status back. The Métis were not treated any better than we were. If you were brown enough to look like an Indian, you were considered a treaty Indian, so you were told to go to the Indian agent. Many of the Métis went through this problem too.
Senator Day: Of those who did return and were not allowed to return to the reserve and to their rights as a status Indian, were they given the same rights as any other returning veteran as a result?
Mr. Coté: Yes, they were. Once you were enfranchised, you participated and you qualified for all the post-war benefits.
Senator Day: That is helpful.
I want to look at the 800 surviving First Nations veterans and the 1,000 surviving spouses that the grand chief referred to. Does the figure of 1,000 represent spouses, or does it represent spouses and dependents?
Mr. Coté: It represents spouses.
Senator Day: There were 1,800 veterans who were overseas.
Mr. Bellegarde: There were 1,800 veterans and 1,000 spouses.
Senator Day: Is that the figure you have been discussing with the minister?
Mr. Bellegarde: Yes.
Senator Day: Are you agreed on that figure?
Mr. Anderson: We have no idea. No one has ever told us anything.
Mr. Bellegarde: Those are the numbers we use, as of February 1.
Senator Day: Is that February 1, 2000?
Mr. Bellegarde: Yes.
Senator Day: I want to get a feeling for how far you are with the minister here. Has the minister ever said that we are dealing with 1,800?
Mr. Bellegarde: No.
Senator Day: Do you know whether he will accept that or not?
Mr. Bellegarde: No, we do not know whether he will accept that.
Senator Day: The $425,000, or the figure you have come up with, is that a figure that the minister has even tacitly said he agrees with?
Mr. Bellegarde: No. They indicated in October that it seemed high and it was indicated in my presentation they were trying to do the lower end of things. That was based on an economist's study, which said that if all this had been passed on to the veterans back in the 1940s, it would be up to $425,000. That is the high-end figure. Their financial forecast came in at about $125,000, so there is a range.
The Chairman: Is that in writing anywhere, the $125,000?
Mr. Bellegarde: That figure is in the study.
Senator Day: I do not know where I saw that figure.
Mr. Larry Whiteduck, Coordinator for First Nations Veterans Social Development, Assembly of First Nations: There were two economists reports prepared; one by Doug Kalisnakoff, who prepared it on our behalf, and the second one was commissioned by the federal government, I believe it was the Department of Veterans Affairs. It was a separate economist's report. It was an economist's report commissioned by the government.
Senator Day: The figures that I am looking at are at page 4 of Chief Bellegarde's submission, where they offered in that range of $20,000 to $24,000.
Mr. Bellegarde: That was informally talked about in our meeting with the minister and with some of the bureaucrats of the Department of Veterans Affairs. They said that some of the navy merchant marine veterans received anywhere from $20,000 to $24,000. We recognized that. That is the figure that the government came up with to satisfy us.
In the case of the First Nations veterans, how do you make a different case? Why should Indian veterans get more than the navy merchant marine veterans? We go to the Indian agent under the Indian Act. Other veterans did not suffer that oppression, or that form of control or domination. No one suffered that and no one should go through that.
Under the Indian Act regime Indians did not have the right to vote until 1961. We officially became Canadian citizens when we exercised our right to vote. We had no access to legal counsel. In 1957, if I went to a lawyer, that lawyer would be disbarred if he counselled a status Indian. Under the permit system we could not leave the reserve. If I wanted to kill my own cow, I could not do it without a permit from the Indian agent. If I wanted to go visit my girlfriend on the next reserve, I needed a permit. I could not go to town, but I had to get out of town before sundown. There was no access to the Canadian Legion halls. First Nations veterans were kicked out.
There is a huge difference between navy merchant marine veterans and First Nations veterans. People need to understand that and why there is a differentiation. That is what we tried to explain to Minister Duhamel and his staff.
I have said clearly that there will not be great joy and jubilation if $20,000 or $25,000 is offered. We feel that we have done our job lobbying and that our issues are on the cabinet's radar screen. There is no problem dealing with these people, but what the settlement amount will be, I do not know.
We are saying that the amount must be equitable. Our study said $425,000. Their study said $125,000, or thereabouts, which was commissioned by government. I cannot remember what department, or the name of the person who came up with that figure. We can get that for you though.
With all the benefits, such as the spousal benefits at $80 a month, combined with missed benefits and missed opportunities, some of our veterans could have been a lawyer or a doctor. There was no access to those funds. We considered the loss of those benefits when we calculated our figure.
Senator Day: Our chairman asked you about the date of February 1, 2000. I cannot see why you chose that day when the First Nations Veterans Roundtable Committee only passed the resolution for $425,000 on April 19, 2001. Why did you retroactively go to February 1, 2000?
Mr. Bellegarde: That is our recommendation. Again, this is what we are saying to the government officials because that is the first time that the three government departments ever came together around a table to deal with this issue.
Senator Day: When did your consultant come up with the figure of $425,000? On which date was that based?
Mr. Coté: The study was done through the VLA of 1942. We always said that if we are to get any kind of proper recognition, we should be compensated from the day that act became effective.
Senator Day: I understand. You have taken that figure and brought it forward to a date.
Mr. Coté: That is correct, the 1942 VLA.
Senator Day: What is that date? It represents the figure of $425,000. Maybe we should try to find that out. Maybe you could look it up and let me know that date.
Mr. Coté: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Ms Paulette Tremblay, National Liaison for the Chiefs of Saskatchewan, Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations: On page 43 in our report, "A Search for Equity," there is a reference at the bottom of the page to the name of the person who conducted the forensic economic assessment in 2000 for Veterans Affairs Canada.
Patrick Grady Global Economics Limited prepared the report entitled "Estimates of Veterans' Benefits for First Nations Veterans." We can get you a copy of that report. That is where the $125,000 figure came from.
In relation to the estimate of $425,000, if you go to the top of the page, you will see it was a report prepared by Kalesnikoff, Kingdon and Associates Financial Investigators for the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations. We can also get you a copy of that report. In addition, Grand Chief Howard Anderson has asked me to provide you with the Sweeney Report. I will forward one to Senator Day and another to Senator Wiebe.
Senator Wiebe: If you send one to our clerk, she will make copies available to all of us.
Ms Tremblay: I can do that.
Senator Day: If I can follow through that paragraph: these figures are to the end of 2000 by adding interest to reflect time value of the money. So the end of 2000 is probably February 1.
Ms Tremblay: That is correct.
Mr. Bellegarde: February 1, 2000, was the day that we got all three departments together. That is why that date was chosen. People had been lobbying DIAND but there was not much movement there, or at Veterans Affairs Canada.
Mr. Coon Come: Senator Day asked a specific question with regards to the 1,800 that represents 800 veterans and 1,000 spouses. We have a study here, and that identifies 15,000 First Nations who participated in the wars. We could find ourselves with maybe thousands of veterans that are alive out there, plus their spouses. This study is ongoing.
Senator Day: I understand that the negotiation is the amount for 1,800?
Mr. Bellegarde: For anyone who has died since that date, yes.
Senator Atkins: I apologize to our guest witnesses for being late and I hope my questions have not already been dealt with. What happened to their medical records when members of the First Nations were discharged from the military?
Mr. Anderson: DIAND has them and I have been trying to get them to give the records to the Veterans Affairs Canada. I gave them documentation so they could see what happened. I gave them this paper that has the two signatures on it: the signature of a chief and of a councillor. They should have gone to the band members to see if I was able to have this land. They should not have done this on their own. On another reserve, IAB went on that reserve and said, "We are going to give them land." Two chiefs got kicked out of being chiefs because they would not adhere to what IAB wanted to do. Most of the information you are looking for is at DIAND.
Senator Atkins: Are veterans treated the same as other veterans in terms of health care?
Mr. Anderson: We are now; we were not then. We are getting there. We still do not go to a region to see a member of VAC because they ask us, "If we come on the reserve, will your dogs bite us?" I am not kidding you. They have asked me that. I say, "All you do is go to the band office and they will show you." You have no idea where I live. I have never spoken to a person from Veterans Affairs Canada on Gordon's reserve. I go to Punnichy to talk to them, and they sit at the post office.
Mr. Coté: The health services made available to First Nations veterans are improving. We had to do to get them to understand that we were just as qualified for health services as the non-Indian veterans. We have a Second World War veteran now that is really deaf, and he has been deaf for the last five years. We usually have a June 6 D-Day celebration and we invited veterans affairs to come and give us a presentation of all the services that they provide to veterans.
I spoke to the regional director general there and said, "Look at this guy. He is 80 years old; he is deaf; and he is not getting anything for his hearing disability." He said, "Well, we will have to put him through a hearing test." He went for a hearing test and now he is getting a pension for his hearing disability. What about all the money he has been missing over the years? It was shortly after the war when he started to lose his hearing.
Senator Atkins: That is good to hear that we are addressing it now. The reason I ask the question is that when Second World War or Korean veterans came home, many were so anxious to get out of the service that they ignored a proper discharge in terms of medical examination. On the records there are things missing that in later years they found were probably a result of their service. I know that other veterans are finding situations now where it is very hard for them to claim the kind of support for disabilities that really they deserve. I am curious whether that is the case.
Mr. Coté: It has happened to several of them. They did not pay attention; they just wanted to get home and that was it. They did not realize until later years when it started affecting their limbs or their hearing. There were no earplugs in the days of the Second World War or even the Korean War. There were no earplugs for shooting your rifle or the artillery gun and, as result, a lot of these guys ended up deaf. They never received any allowance for their deafness.
Senator Atkins: Are there any members that have served since the Korean War that are discharged? Do they receive proper attention from Veterans Affairs Canada and from the health departments?
Mr. Coté: Anyone who might have participated in Desert Storm or other peacekeeping duties are all pretty young, but at least now they know what kind of benefits they are entitled to should there be anything wrong with them at the date of discharge.
Senator Atkins: So you are satisfied?
Mr. Coté: There are no complaints coming in from the younger peacekeepers or those who have served in the armed services.
Senator Atkins: That is good to hear. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Senator Forrestall: We heard last week from Canadian merchant marine people who are still fighting. They are on the track with you but they are some way back. When you stop to have lunch, they may catch up to you. I doubt it. You will all be dead.
I want to make two points. If you want some excellent advice about problems like this, you should take a look at the decisions of the Veterans Review and Appeal Board, not Veterans Affairs Canada. I think you will find some very useful information there. In connection with that, do you know of anyone who has had occasion to go in front of the veterans appeal board to vary or change an order of the department?
Mr. Anderson: Not to our knowledge, no.
Mr. Bellegarde: I will partially answer that question. That was fuelled by our court case, not before the Veterans Appeal Board but in court. We supported our First Nations veterans from Saskatchewan years ago in filing a statement of claim.
We realized that it was not just an issue for Saskatchewan, but First Nations veterans from the East Coast to the West Coast had suffered similarly. Then we enlarged the scope. We did all the work in Saskatchewan and we were right on the ball. We had filed in court and we knew that the legal process would take a long time; the veterans were dying. So we looked for a political process to rectify the wrong that had been done.
That is when we started educating and lobbying ministers and the different deputy ministers and the bureaucrats. Lo and behold, there were terms of reference with the three departments in February a couple of years back. We commissioned national terms of reference so we could do this across Canada. This is the result.
We wanted to avoid the legal process but wanted to rectify the wrong. Canada owes a debt here. We have lobbied cabinet and written letters. This issue is on the cabinet radar screen; there is no question. We feel good. Part of the lobbying process is to lobby the senators. You are a key component in bringing about justice for these veterans and their spouses.
We did not pursue the court process for the veterans, but we may need to follow it up if we do not get justice through the political process.
Senator Forrestall: There is a good library here. You can look at the decisions of courts and tribunals. People may be suffering difficulties today without being aware of their rights. As you have said, their injuries or conditions may in fact result from events of 30 or 40 years ago and they are just now showing up. That is very real.
I invite you to be aware of that. Most importantly, you must get access to all the types of help that are available. When you are finished, take on the poor old merchant marines and show us how you did it. We are not making any progress at all and we need help.
Mr. Coté: Have you heard of the Soldiers' Settlement Act of 1917? That act came into effect before the First World War veterans came home from Europe. That act stated that land would be made available to the non-Indian veterans. The lands given over came from lands surrendered by the poor Indian veterans. They gave the Indian veterans their own land to try and farm on. That created a discrepancy. Thousands of acres were taken from small bands to give to non-Indian veterans.
That is why we have been fighting. We want to get land off-reserve because many of the reserves are too small at this time. They are overcrowded. I wish I could have received a quarter section of land off the reserve but I could not.
The Chairman: Without becoming disenfranchised?
Mr. Coté: I would have had to lose my status, yes.
Mr. Anderson: The family of the Grand Chief before me offered him a quarter section of land off reserve. The Indian agent told him he would have to be disenfranchised to accept it. Consequently he never had anything.
Senator Forrestall: There is a very famous story, the sadness of which prompts me to relate it here. When the right honourable gentleman from Prince Albert moved to bring native Canadians into the parliamentary process, he asked the chief one of the basic questions: Are you worth $4,000? The chief said, "No, but give me 10 minutes."
It highlights what you are saying. He was not able. We recently unveiled a bust to honour him here in the senate venue. However, the story highlights that problem. He did not have land because he knew what would happen if he tried to own land. His family told me that story.
Thank you for coming. Like everyone else, for 36 years I have watched you plod your way through the myriad of obstacles. Hopefully, an end is near. May we never go through this again and may the lesson be learned.
The Chairman: Thank you each for coming. Whatever the result of budget or post-budget announcements, this subcommittee will be here. Hopefully, we will see you again to discuss fine details. If the worst should happen and we must begin again, we will be here with sympathetic ears. It is part of our job to see that justice is done.
Senator Day: If you receive a response from the minister, can we be made aware?
The Chairman: Yes. Honourable senators, we have a housekeeping matter.
Is it agreed that the material received from the Assembly of First Nations be filed as an exhibit with the clerk?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans group who declined or was not able to be here this evening have also filed a submission. Would it be agreeable to also file that as an exhibit with the clerk?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The committee adjourned.