Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 6 - Evidence, February 19, 2003
OTTAWA, Wednesday, February 19, 2003
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 2:30 p.m. to study issues affecting urban Aboriginal youth in Canada and, in particular, to examine access, provision and delivery of services; policy and jurisdictional issues; employment and education; access to economic opportunities; youth participation and empowerment; and other related matters.
[English]
Senator Thelma J. Chalifoux (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: I welcome our three witnesses today. This committee has been charged with the responsibility of addressing the serious needs that our Aboriginal youth are facing in urban centres. In particular, the committee shall be authorized to examine access, provision and delivery of services; policy and jurisdictional issues; employment and education; access to economic opportunities; youth participation and empowerment; and other related maters. We have a broad spectrum of issues that need to be addressed. In our urban centres, we have been facing this issue for a long time.
I would like to introduce the members of the committee: Senator Terry Stratton, from Manitoba, is the Deputy Chair of the committee; Senator Elizabeth Hubley, from Prince Edward Island; Senator Ione Christensen, from Yukon; Senator Nick Sibbeston, from the Northwest Territories; Senator Viola Léger, from New Brunswick; and I am Senator Thelma Chalifoux, from Alberta, and Chair of the committee. Mr. Adam Thompson is the Clerk of the Committee and Ms Tonina Simeone is our researcher from the Library of Parliament.
Ms. Martin, please proceed
Ms Nancy Martin, Executive Director, Miziwe Biik Aboriginal Employment and Training: Thank you for having us here today. We have a combined presentation and so we will begin with Mr. Steve Williams, Chairperson of the Circle.
Senator Stratton: If I may interrupt, could each of you let us know which parts of the country you are from?
Mr. Steve Williams, President, Aboriginal Labour Force Development Circle: I am the former Chief of Six Nations. I am the Chairman of the Aboriginal Labour Force Development Circle, where I have been for 12 years.
Chief Blaine Commandant, Ontario Representative, Assembly of First Nations Chief's Committee on Human Resources: I am Chief of the Wahta Mohawks located in Muskoka, Ontario. I sit on the Assembly of First Nations Chief's Committee on Human Resources Development for the Ontario Region.
Ms. Martin: I am the Executive Director of the Miziwe Biik Aboriginal Employment and Training, which is an employment service in Toronto. My family is originally from Six Nations and I was born and raised in Toronto.
Mr. Williams: It is our pleasure to be here this afternoon to make a presentation regarding urban Aboriginal youth. Collectively, Ms Martin, Chief Commandant and I have expertise in the area of employment and training programs and services. We are here today to share some of the problems facing urban Aboriginal youth and to discuss some of the solutions that have been proposed and, in some cases, developed by and for urban Aboriginal youth.
The Aboriginal Labour Force Development Circle, ALFDC, has a number of funding agreements with Human Resources Development Canada, HRDC, whereby we deliver employment-related programs and services to First Nations and Inuit people in various geographic areas throughout Ontario. We utilize a number of local delivery mechanisms, called LDMs, to achieve this. We also deliver the homeless programs in Ottawa, Hamilton and Toronto. We have a separate agreement to deliver employment-training programs in the City of Toronto. Therefore, we feel that we are in a unique position to speak to employment training in other issues facing Aboriginal youth in urban areas.
Miziwe Biik is one of our local delivery mechanisms, utilized by the Aboriginal Labour Force Development Circle. They are located in downtown Toronto. At the front line on a daily basis, workers deal with youth and the problems that they face. We are fortunate that Miziwe Biik has recently completed a research project in which Aboriginal youth and students were the primary informants. The research data that we will share with you today was collected through a series of focus groups and one-on-one interviews.
The focus group discussed the programs and services provided to Aboriginal youth. Throughout Miziwe Biik, they were asked questions specific to their needs and in support of employment. Other questions addressed the barriers to employment levels and the use of basic career counselling services; and career counselling, follow-up and support. We are also looking to share a number of solutions that have been proposed by Aboriginal youth. Miziwe Biik has had focus groups with employers, as well. Their observations and recommendations have been included in the report.
I will now turn the presentation over to Ms Martin, who will review the socio-economic factors affecting Aboriginal urban youth, barriers to employment and the needs and support required to assist youth to be employed.
Ms. Martin: There is still a severe imbalance existing between the socio-economic position of Aboriginal youth and that of mainstream society. Although ``Youth at Risk,'' Youth Services Canada, and other programs and counselling services have made a difference, the dropout rate for Aboriginal youth remains higher than the rates in the mainstream. Unfortunately, residential school syndrome, where education is viewed as an assimilation device, contributes to this tragedy.
Canada, and particularly in Toronto, prides itself in multiculturalism and there are multiple services to address the needs of immigrants. However, Aboriginal youth seem to have become lost in the issues. Aboriginal youth are invisible minority in Toronto. They are not mentioned in the reports that are prepared unless they are Aboriginal-specific. They are not visible in media or in advertising, unless it is negative. Many of the mainstream education institutions refuse to acknowledge the learning styles of Aboriginal people. Again, in Toronto, the school boards provide multicultural language and training; yet, frequently, Aboriginal students are ignored.
Aboriginal people are often labelled as being ``different'' or having ``special needs.'' These labels attack the dignity of the students, to the point where dropping out becomes inevitable, if not desirable.
Aboriginal youth in Toronto are often victims of ``adoption breakdown.'' It is a rising phenomenon that Aboriginal youth raised in non-aboriginal homes are coming to Toronto without the skills and education to enter the work force. They are looking for cultural programs and they need to link with their heritage in order to strengthen their self- esteem.
In the past, the Aboriginal community has been imploding. Now we are seeing the emergence of youth gangs in Toronto — similar to what exists in Winnipeg. We need to put a stop to that before this situation becomes out of control. The gangs emerge and are fuelled by the frustration of trying to survive in a system that is not responsive to their needs.
Our major task at Miziwe Biik is breaking the generational cycle of poverty. That is the key. Poverty stems from racism. All the issues that youth are facing — poverty, foetal alcohol syndrome, unemployment, lack of training, high school dropout rate — if you all stem from racism.
Our youth are at risk. They are caught in the middle of a multi-generational cycle of dysfunction that is a symptom of the racism. It requires major supports to overcome. At Miziwe Biik, our budget is $3 million per year. In the early 1990s, our budget was $6 million per year. It has been cut in half from 10 years ago. I hate to talk money, but it is really the bottom line. All we can do is put a Band-Aid on.
Our mandate is to provide employment and training services, and sometimes youth are not ready for that. They need healing. They need to connect with themselves, their community and their culture before they will be strong enough to move into a training or an employment situation.
Sixty per cent of urban Aboriginal households are below the poverty line. The urban Aboriginal youth unemployment rate is 30 per cent higher than the non-aboriginal youth unemployment rate. Aboriginal homelessness accounts for 15 per cent of the total in the greater Toronto area. That is an issue that requires resources to resolve. The housing issue is grim, and it has a domino effect on the families.
The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, RCAP, report attributes the statistics to the lack of a coordinated approach to address the problems. The skill sets that are often taken for granted in mainstream society are skills that often are lacking in many of our Aboriginal youth. There is a strong need for family planning, counselling, parenting skills, child-rearing and nutrition skills. Grandparents and parents cannot teach a child how to be functional within the family if they never learned how themselves. This, of course, is a direct result of the residential school system.
Perhaps Mr. Williams would like to add something about the barriers to employment.
Mr. Williams: In regard to employment training for youth or adults, one of the issues that we have had to face is that people have a number of problems before they even arrive in the cities. They do not have the educational level. In the cities, they get into drug and alcohol problems to try to smooth things out. I have heard First Nations say that there are a lot of jobs in the city and that it is no necessary to spend a lot of money on urban people. However, there are a lot of people after those jobs.
Before we can meet youths' employment training needs, they have to be off drugs and alcohol. They need a place to live. They cannot get a job if they are living on the street. We have to help them upgrade their skills before we can even start them in a training program. If they come from a northern community, for example, they may not even have the basic grade 7 and 8 elements.
That is part of the problem with the school systems. They are not designed for Aboriginal people. That is one of the issues that we have always faced. It is tough when they come to Toronto thinking that there are a lot of jobs to be had. It is not that simple. There are a lot of people competing for the same jobs, and they do not have the same problems as Aboriginal people.
Ms. Martin: The barriers to employment were identified by the youth themselves. They thought that the training programs are not long enough to receive the training that is required to achieve permanent employment. Their lack of experience limits their employment opportunities. Again, short-term training programs often do not result in employment opportunities. The high school dropout rates continue to be high, and the competition for training funds is high among urban Aboriginal youth.
School-to-work transition programs need to be strengthened. Our best chance to assist students is through prevention programs, before they drop out of the education system. They lack adequate housing at affordable rates, affordable daycare and resources for dealing with conflicts with the law. Some of our youth sit for days, weeks and months in jail, waiting for their trials to take place. They do not have the resources or the support systems within the community to be out on bail until their trial begins.
Our youth are struggling with a wide range of disabilities — I cannot emphasize that enough. We see substance abuse, and particularly, fetal alcohol syndrome, which affects the children of yesterday as well as the youth and parents of today. We need to create opportunities for them to get their education, become trained, access employment and keep it. That is a big challenge.
Other challenges they face include lack of work experience; many have never been taught the life skills needed to keep a job, or even an apartment. Those are all things that a lot of the young people have not learned. In addition to a wide range of personal problems, language is often a barrier to employment as well. Literacy is also a problem.
Often, the youth will leave their home communities and come to urban settings thinking it will be easy to gain employment, only to find out that they do not have the education or work experience to gain full-time employment. These are the youth who end up on the streets with drug or alcohol problems, in conflict with the law or in jail. These are the youth that require specialized counselling and added resources to ensure they do not become the next victims of the system. I feel very negative sitting here telling you this, because we do have many success stories. We work individually with all our youth clients, because that is what it takes. It requires working one-on-one with them regularly, for years sometimes, to move them through earning their GED, helping them find a place to live, referring them to child care or therapy. There are multiple issues that will not go away with a Band-Aid.
Through the Youth Employment Strategy, YES, $28 million is allocated annually on a national basis for youth programming that provides work experience, knowledge, skills and information to make successful transitions to the work world.
They are extremely important programs, but they are aimed primarily at students to assist them to gain work experience and make the transition from school to work, as well as at students at risk of dropping out of school. We say that we need interventions prior to these issues. The basic needs for our youth need to be addressed.
We need to expand those programs in all urban areas, particularly in the GTA and Ottawa, to ensure that we can provide the outreach and support to Aboriginal students while they are still in the education system. We find that Human Resources Development Canada does not always recognize that, in dealing with urban youth, it is not a matter of simply providing career counselling and training that develops a skill set for employment. In order for a person to achieve full-time, long-term employment, other supports need to be available. Employment counsellors working with Aboriginal youth in urban areas require additional training, to ensure that youth receive the referrals and support they require to achieve healthy lifestyles. These include access to affordable housing, developing parenting skills, childcare and nutrition counselling. When we take this holistic approach to employment and training, we find our success rates are much higher. It is that holistic approach that works with the Aboriginal youth in our community.
Without these supports, urban Aboriginal youth become frustrated with the system and become likely prey for recruitment for the youth gangs that are beginning to take hold in Toronto.
An increasing number of urban Aboriginal youth are seeking our services. They have had negative experiences in the mainstream school system and have dropped out prior to achieving any credits. In our interviews with Aboriginal youth in Toronto, we learned that they do want to work toward receiving their high school diplomas and they would like to plan to go to university as mature students. The budgets for post-secondary education may not allow this to happen.
The priorities that are set at the community level are often first related to students who are continuing post- secondary studies. The second funding priority is aimed at students who are entering post-secondary directly from high school. The third priority goes to mature students. With the waiting lists that now exist for the first two priorities for funding, it will be almost impossible for First Nations communities to commit funding to assist their people in urban areas.
In many cases, urban Aboriginal youth have lost ties with their home communities and are reluctant or unable to seek financial assistance to achieve career goals.
I would estimate that one-third of our clientele are adoptees; one-third of our staff in the 50 Aboriginal agencies are probably also adoptees. Basic life skills training and learning good work habits and ethics are important factors in assisting urban Aboriginal youth to remain employed over the long-term. I will now ask Chief Commandant to discuss some proposed solutions.
Mr. Commandant: It has been clear throughout the presentation that we need to ensure that counselors receive additional training, so that they have the ability to provide holistic counselling for their urban Aboriginal youth clientele.
Metro Toronto has one of the largest urban Aboriginal populations in the country, but there is no treatment centre specific for them. We know that mainstream programs are not as successful as those designed and delivered by and for Aboriginal people. With the Aboriginal population in the Greater Toronto Area, GTA, estimated at 65,000, this is a national disgrace.
We must have the ability to expand youth programming in every high school in the GTA where Aboriginal students attend. We must have the ability to assist students to stay in school and complete their secondary education, to give them more choices for their future.
Assistance for urban Aboriginal youth to get into the construction trades and apprenticeship programs has been successful in the past. However, this requires staff people dedicated to these positions on a full-time basis. In addition, we need to be able to provide a living allowance to the youth enrolled in these programs. In the past, we have been able to provide a stipend, however, our budgets have been cut to such an extent that we can no longer provide this incentive. Youth who are worried about where their next meal is coming from are unlikely to finish a program.
Employers have told us that basic education or education upgrading; life skills training, pre-employment and follow-up assistance are some of the key needs related to employment for Aboriginal youth.
The youth themselves have indicated that they would like to see an entrepreneur service centre available to them. They indicated that they do not know where to go or how to develop their business ideas. Some youth clients also spoke of wanting to know more about patenting and manufacturing inventions.
Real and meaningful solutions will require an investment of money dedicated to Aboriginal urban youth. We know that for every 100 people trained and placed in jobs welfare costs are reduced by $1.4 million per year. We recommend that these savings be re-invested in programs and services specifically for Aboriginal urban youth. This should be a priority for investment. Budget cuts have already resulted in the loss of specialized employment and training counselors in the only Toronto-based organization that can demonstrate success in working with urban Aboriginal youth to help them find and keep jobs.
We cannot stand by and continue to allow this to happen. It is in Canada's best interests to take steps to remedy this now. Urban Aboriginal youth cannot continue to be marginalized without society having to pay the consequences at some point.
We are now prepared to answer any questions that you may have.
The Chairman: Thank you very much for an insightful and interesting presentation, with recommendations that are relevant to us. This is not just a study; it is an action plan for change and we need your input.
Senator Stratton: That presentation was very good. Not only did you tell us the problems, you told us what some of the solutions were and are.
The Library of Parliament research document tells us that the Aboriginal population is growing faster than any other segment of Canadian society. It also says that, by 2006, it is anticipated this will be a working-age population of 920,000 people. That is a lot of people wanting work.
I know you have talked about what is needed in certain areas. We also need to know, in your view, what initiatives have been effective to date in helping the youth. We would like to know what is currently working. Your silence on the other side of the issue does not mean that those programs are not working, but we would like to know the ones that are most successful.
Ms. Martin: Chief Commandant made a point about the construction trades. Through Miziwe Biik and other partners in the Aboriginal community in Toronto, we have had quite a bit of success with the construction trades due to the learning style. It appeals to the young people because they are not office bound. The young people already seem to have some affinity and experiential learning throughout their lives of hammer and nails. We entered a partnership with the trade unions and schools. Some of our students finished at the top of the class in dry-walling and carpentry. It requires quite a bit of help from the union and the trades. They must be willing to support it. We have had a number of successes with that particular field.
Another good model has been in the film industry. We are, again, attempting to penetrate that field. Toronto, as you know, is our ``Hollywood North.'' Some of the technical and artistic fields appeal to the youth. Some of their deficiencies, such as not having a grade 12 education, are not all that relevant in the film industry. We are relying heavily on the non-Aboriginal film community to embrace the youth that we are sending to try for those jobs.
Those are two particular areas that have worked well.
Mr. Williams: Another area that has worked well is starting individual businesses. There are many now because there is an Aboriginal business association within Toronto. I believe it was an elder who made a comment after we introduced ourselves. He said, ``I never thought that I would be in a room with this many presidents of their own companies who are Aboriginal.'' He felt good about that. That is part of what we have to do.
We previously had a budget for Ontario of about $50 million under the HRDC programs. Over the past five years, we have lost $2 million a year because of formulas that HRDC put in place. We do not agree with these formulae. We are down to about $32 million. As Ms. Martin said, her budget went from $6 million to $3 million. It took a great fight to obtain that level. With 65,000 Aboriginal people in Toronto trying to get employment training, the decent job that Ms. Martin has been doing is not enough.
We tried to talk to HRDC and the ministers about the savings to that we have gained by getting people off welfare and social assistance. Why would we not keep those savings for us? They say that there is no way to calculate it.
However, when I meet with the Province of Ontario, they say, ``Steve, we already get your savings. You create it, but we get to keep it.'' This system does not seem to work for us, and it never has. That is the problem that we are having. If we could only keep the savings on the HRDC stuff across Canada, there would be more than enough.
Currently, $225 million is set aside all across Canada for employment training. That has been there for the last 12 years or 13 years. It has never changed. After 10 years, we are at the same place except the budgets are lower, because more people are asking for funds. We will be focusing on the funds for employment training area in 2004.
There was nothing in the budget yesterday but, perhaps, by 2004, there will be an announcement that there will be more money to cover some of these things. It is one of the areas that we must address.
In Ontario, we split the urban areas. We deal with homelessness. Our organization is the only one across Canada that deals with First Nation members, on and off reserve, the urban, the homeless, child care and the Inuit. We are the only organization that has done all of this. Yet the Province of Ontario has two different groups that deliver homelessness. We have always delivered this service. We were told that this responsibility would be taken away from us to be given to another group. We would do two or three cities, and the other group would do the rest. They are splitting it up when there is not enough money to go around in the first place. They cut the budget by $2 million. We have to do this on behalf of the people that want the services, but it is always difficult when the budgets are being cut constantly.
Senator Stratton: I have been on a fair number of reserves over the course of my life. Some of them are quite good; some are quite desperate, as we know. I would imagine that is the place to start the training that you have described.
Chief, perhaps you could answer this one. What programs are available on reserve that help prepare Aboriginal youth coming off the reserve?
Mr. Commandant: There is an opportunity for almost any type of training. We promote education in the mainstream, we encourage our children to complete their post-secondary education and go on to university, if that is available. Our community sends some of our kids into the U.S, because there are schools there that are better for the field they are studying. That works well for us.
Apprenticeships are a great program. In many instances, an apprenticeship gives the kids an opportunity to earn a living while they are gaining a skill. They can turn that into a career for themselves.
We will not all be bankers and lawyers. There are honourable jobs that will earn a good living without having to take that Hollywood approach. As well, giving these children the opportunity to have one success can ingrain in them the knowledge that they have the ability to do it. They can take that forward and challenge anything else in their life.
Senator Stratton: That is seen as a success story on reserves?
Mr. Commandant: Yes. As well, if we can do that in the community, that helps keep them out of the city — although some will always gravitate to the city. They can be happy in the community.
Senator Christensen: Money and how to get it always seems to be the big issue. The funding through programs usually has to be renewed on a regular basis. They are not on-going, core funding. You touched on this. You said that you had partnered with unions and so on.
How much work is done in trying to get matching funds from private enterprise? After all, the training is to the benefit of industries. It is difficult to do, but it is certainly a resource that would benefit.
Mr. Williams: In the past the programs never worked. We went to employers and said, ``Will you take a student or someone for a job? We will subsidize you.'' As soon as the subsidy is done, there is no job. We were wasting money.
The employers say that they will support the employee but it must be full-time. As soon as the money is gone, they do stop. We are at the stage where we develop and deliver our own programs.
Ms. Martin has been successful in Toronto, for example, with the unions. She had one young Aboriginal man personally approach the unions, trades and employers to convince them that it is a good idea. However, he is only one person; he cannot do all of Toronto. He has done a good job where he has been.
We have even tried to partner with the Province of Ontario, but they do not have a labour market agreement — the only province without such an agreement. Until they get money, there is nothing that they will do for us either. They do not want to deal with us either because Aboriginal people are a federal responsibility.
As a former chief, I noted that one of the biggest problems within the communities was recreation. There is no money for recreation in communities. The kids in the communities get in trouble because there is nothing for them to do. A big community might obtain an arena, but then not enough money to maintain it.
It is tough. We have done fairly well over the years. We will probably continue doing as much as we can, but again, unless we get additional help in some of these areas, it will be tough. You will hear other provinces saying the same thing.
Senator Christensen: You were talking about FAS and FAE and the long history of addictions through the society. It is certainly a major issue. Are there programs starting for diagnostic facilities and then programs to deal with the people who have it? Do you see that as an area that is starting to grow at all?
Mr. Commandant: There is certainly ongoing work within alcohol prevention and drug programs that deal with the adults. There are also preventative programs for children. A local practitioner does the diagnostic work on FAS and FAE within the communities.
Another means of doing it is having the whole community become more involved with what is going on locally and having an awareness of a particular child that may be in danger or be in that environment. We can create more community support to steer them away from that. If an adult continues in that direction, at least we can put in supports so that the child will feel part of the community and ensure that he or she does have a family around and can be comfortable within that community and have a chance, at least.
Senator Christensen: The other issue you raised was that the school system is not meeting the needs of Aboriginals. You started to build on that. Would you like to expand on that? Certainly, we hear it in each and every presentation on the residential schools, which were schools specifically for First Nations, and that did not work.
What do you see as one of the alternatives to meeting those needs?
Ms. Martin: A lot of responsibility should be put on the school boards for making the curriculum inclusive of Aboriginal peoples' celebrations and contributions and their visibility within textbooks. This curriculum should not be limited to Aboriginal students. Aboriginal visibility should not be limited to history textbooks. When was the last time you saw an Indian in a canoe? That is all they talk about in history. It has been a while. The school board must take responsibility for the issues that Aboriginal people are facing today. Again, it comes back to education and hiring more Aboriginal teachers and just being generally more inclusive.
In the school system, the young people are also dealing with discrimination against poverty in addition to discrimination against their Aboriginal culture. The school system often discriminates against poor families and families with single parents. Our kids are getting hit on every front in that particular system.
Mr. Williams: It is great to say, ``Let us get them trained and get them a job,'' but there are a lot of young pregnancies and HIV/AIDS problems because they are not educated to understand what is out there. I do not know if it is necessarily the full education system — perhaps there should be more there. However, it relates to all of our programs as well, because we do not have the staffing to do all of this. They do fall through the cracks if we do not catch them.
I used an example earlier about the homelessness program. We ran it for three years, but this is the first year we got the money in October. Before that, we always got the money at the beginning of March, and we had to have it spent by the end of March. The winter is over then. That is when we received it in the past, and that has always been a problem for us. This is the first year we actually got it when we needed it so that we could do the planning. We need to change those ideas. It is great to say, ``We have a contract with you, and here is your budget.'' But when do we get the money? We hold off until winter is over and then get our money for homelessness. That is one of the problems we are having and it occurs in all of our centres.
Mr. Commandant: In regard to the curriculum, we have an education counsellor at the elementary level that goes a bit further than others might. This lady goes out into the schools and reviews the curriculum. We have had a real struggle with that because some of it was so off base. It was not factual. It showed that Hollywood-type portrayal: conflict between the nations that existed in Canada prior to the European contact or the ongoing battle between the Europeans and the natives. None of this is true but it is portrayed that way.
We have had to ask them to remove much material from the schools. Some of it has been very offensive. For a time, they are willing to do that, until the flavour seems to change a bit, and then it is put off to the side and we are struggling with it again.
I think we have made some inroads, but it is an ongoing job to keep working at that. It is important to get the right picture of what happened here in Canada and in North America. Let us have a sound starting point, not one based on fiction.
Senator Hubley: I believe Chief Commandant mentioned 65,000 as the Aboriginal population in the greater Toronto area. It was in relationship too a specific treatment centre. Looking at that figure in particular, is that the number of youth that you were dealing with, or is that the total population?
If that figure represents the total population, approximately how would that number break down so that we have an idea of what you are trying to deal with?
Mr. Commandant: You will probably find it is more than 65,000.
Ms. Martin: About 65,000 would be the total Aboriginal population in Toronto. I do not know the number of youth, actually. I would estimate about 60 per cent, if not higher.
Senator Hubley: Your agencies are certainly dealing with a large number of young people in your work.
I do not know where we start over or where we can fix the system. I was interested in Senator Stratton's comments. Does it go back to the beginning? Are there programs on reserve? Are there incentives on reserves for parents who are able, if need be, to take parenting skills courses, which we have heard quite a bit about from some of our presenters? If they are able to keep their children in school, are there incentives for them to do that?
If the system obviously is not working for many Aboriginal youth, in your work, where do you see the breakdowns coming? When they leave home at a certain age? When they get to the city? Can you give us any insight as to where we might make well-educated recommendations? That must come from what you can tell us.
Mr. Commandant: It is really a mix. I wish I could come up with a starting point. That would be great.
It will take some time for the residential schools to go away.
Senator Hubley: I will stop you there. I can imagine that young people were taken out of their homes and those people did not receive the training that they might have otherwise received as far as parenting goes. However, would they not have received some parenting skills, or is it because it is such a spiritual thing?
Mr. Commandant: I do not know where to begin the answer. It is certainly a complex thing to address. One of the biggest issues there is that certainly we can all gain some parenting skills from a variety of different sources as we go through life.
A major effect resulting from the residential school experience was the dysfunctional families that it created. My father was in a residential school and did not grow up in a normal family environment. One inherits that, to a point. The next generation cannot immediately become a stalwart person in society. It takes some time to get over that within a family, although my family was good.
There is work to be done on that and we are trying to do it. However, we are grossly under-funded. There is a list of things that I cannot provide to my community, including basic infrastructure such as water and roads, let alone the social programs that are terribly important. Regardless, people will always gravitate to the city, so we need catchments there to provide for those people.
Imagine children coming out of an isolated Northern Ontario community where the only way out is on an airplane or via a long walk. They see on TV a grandiose and beautiful world in Miami, Hollywood or wherever, and then they end up on the streets of Toronto in November. That must be a terrible a shock. However, it is reality. They have no skills to transport from their community to the city to provide a living for themselves. Therefore, they end up on the street or finding another way to bury all the things that are bothering them.
Mr. Williams: Language has been a concern for many people. For example, because of the residential schools, many of our parents lost their language and were unable to pass it on to us. When I was chief, I tried to get money to bring the languages back to my community. The government agreed to give us $100,000 to bring our 13 languages back. However, if we wanted to teach our people French, they would give us $10 million a year. We are the first peoples of this country.
Another problem is that we have young people who, due to lack of housing on the reserves, must live outside the community. They have never really lived on the reserves. Although they may have family who live there and they would like to live there, they have never lived there. Also, there has been sexual abuse and all kinds of problems.
We have always tried to get governments to earmark programs. We have a national youth program funded at $350 million. However, not 1 per cent is earmarked for Aboriginal youth. For homelessness there is another $750 million, but no money earmarked for Aboriginals. Instead of using the LDMs that already exist to deliver programs, they set up a whole different system. How much does it cost to set up the new administration rather than using what we already have?
When we took over employment and training issues, when some of our people who lived in cities went to HRDC they were told that HRDC did not have to look after them anymore because their communities had the money. If they self-identify, they get nothing. Those are starting points.
Senator Hubley: Do you mean starting with a funding standpoint?
Mr. Williams: Yes. When there are funding announcements, there should be an Aboriginal-specific point, earmarking 10 per cent or 15 per cent of the budget for the Aboriginal people. That is a starting point. It sounds fantastic when we hear that there is $750 million over six years. However, we cannot access it because it is not Aboriginal-specific.
Senator Hubley: I will pursue the funding issue quickly. Does the funding designated for Aboriginal programs get to the people who need it?
Mr. Williams: The short answer is that a majority of it does.
Senator Hubley: Are you satisfied that it does?
Mr. Williams: No. I have never been satisfied with the amount of money we receive.
Senator Hubley: My question is whether you are satisfied that when money is identified for Aboriginal youth in a certain program it gets there.
Mr. Williams: Yes, I am satisfied with that.
Senator Pearson: Chief Commandant, do you come from the Muskoka area?
Mr. Commandant: Yes, I do.
Senator Pearson: I believe that it would be useful to distribute the Lieutenant Governor's book throughout the Ontario education system. Have you read it?
Mr. Commandant: Yes, I have.
Senator Pearson: Do you not think it is a good account?
Mr. Commandant: Mr. Bartleman is a very interesting man. I have met him. We share some common land, as a matter of fact.
Senator Pearson: I thought it was a powerful description of the history and challenges of the Aboriginal peoples in the Muskoka area.
Mr. Commandant: I could relate to much of what he wrote.
Senator Pearson: I think it is great for the kids to relate to someone who was as bad as he was when he was an adolescent. One can understand why he was the way he was.
Mr. Commandant: We won't discuss that.
Senator Pearson: It is important for kids to see that you can come out the other end as a normal person.
Mr. Commandant: Yes. Certainly.
Senator Pearson: The book sends a powerful message about the Muskoka area — one of which I had not been aware. It seems to me that it would be a good book to have on the reading lists of schools, because it would be fairly easy for kids to read.
In the areas where monies are coming into the Aboriginal population, such as Casino Rama, what is happening with that money?
Mr. Commandant: Those dollars are being spent by individual communities in the ways that they see fit within certain parameters. The monies can be used for education, community betterment, health or economic development. There are many approaches. Some communities are using it as seed funding to start businesses that will grow and create a few jobs within that community. Others have larger plans that may include buildings or whatever. There is a variety of ways they are being used across the province.
Senator Pearson: Are they being shared?
Mr. Commandant: Yes, there is a distribution formula for those dollars so that everyone gets sort of an equal share. Some get more than others, but that is an issue we are addressing.
Others may be putting it away as a nest egg so that they can rely on revenues for years to come, which is a sound move.
Senator Pearson: This is interesting for our committee to know. It seems to be quite an imaginative approach to the casino revenues. I am not sure that it works the same way in other provinces.
Mr. Williams: No, it does not. I am also the president of the Ontario First Nations Limited Partnership. I am the one who gives the money from Casino Rama to the chiefs. We have given them a large amount of money. Some put 40 per cent to 60 per cent toward housing for their communities. The problem, again, is that the money is for the total membership and very few communities spend the money for their urban Aboriginal people. They do much for their own community, where there are many needs.
As an example, I went to an opening last with fall at the Hiawatha First Nation, which is not far from here. We did a lot of training for the chief's community. They are next to the Scugog Casino and they have done a lot of training there and have a lot of jobs. The chief built a gas station/restaurant/grocery store within the community, as they did not have those facilities. On opening day he announced that by opening this they had created another 12 jobs in the community and there was only one person left on welfare. That is a tangible success story. I was happy to be there for that opening. It was a great feeling.
We can get more involved. Many communities are using the money successfully. Some communities do not know what to do with the money. Some communities refuse to spend it until they have a plan that has been approved and deemed excellent.
Still, the urban area does not receive what their fair share should be. They have never been allowed to because that money goes to the community directly.
Senator Pearson: I wanted to raise that be it is important for people to realize that the Aboriginal community is contributing to the Aboriginal community. The amount may not be enough in the urban area, but it is not only the governments that are contributing.
Mr. Williams: We have had some good success.
Senator Sibbeston: The phenomenon of Aboriginal people moving from rural communities to the cities is something that is happening. I am also cognizant that Canada is made up of many immigrants. Toronto and such places are full of people who have come from different countries. I suspect that most immigrants come to Canada without much money. They do not know the language and they are unfamiliar with our democratic capitalistic society. Yet people seem to eventually integrate and make their way in different parts of our society. In regard to the Chinese people, for instance, one sees many Chinese restaurants and little corner stores and so forth.
With Aboriginal people, the move is from the rural areas to the urban. You describe the problems that you see in urban settings such as Toronto — the problems that are inherent with different kinds of people trying to fit into a well- organized, sophisticated society based on technology and production. There are defined jobs and roles that people must play. Native people are having a hard time fitting into that technological, modern society.
I am Aboriginal. Sometimes I say that it is just my primitive genes, as it were. I am not a farmer. I could never be a farmer because my genes are hunter and gatherer kinds of genes. I laugh at myself about that.
Could you comment on that whole issue? It is somewhat philosophical, I know.
Ms. Martin: I wish I knew the answer to that question. If I did, we may not be sitting here today.
Mr. Commandant: One point in that regard is that, by and large, prior to contact with the Europeans, Aboriginal cultures had not experienced a sense of ownership. Something was not mine or yours, or somebody else's. That is a piece of property, how could you sever it? How can you draw a line and prevent me from going there? That phenomenon is there. As Mohawks, we are more gardeners, to a point, or part of our family was, anyway. However, we are also hunter-gatherers and live off the land. That is a short history that we have removed ourselves from.
When you speak of China, where you have thousands of years of history and a culture that existed there — and Europe is similar — any other place where immigration is coming from is the same. They may not have been the cream of the crop coming out of their country of origin, but they certainly had their eye on what was going on around them and were cognizant of it. This is totally new in world history to our people. It will take some time to catch up.
Mr. Williams: I do not think I can say any more than that, because I am also Mohawk. We used to just conquer things; that was basically it.
Senator Sibbeston: In the Northwest Territories, native people for the most part still live in smaller communities. In many ways, we are becoming more modern. We have trucks, TVs, computers — all the things that we see in the south have been introduced to north.
In larger centres such as Yellowknife, people who have been hunters and trappers, after one or two generations, through education or work opportunities, are now involved in areas such as mining. Mining is huge in the north. There are two big mines. Aboriginal people are making their way into those segments. Certain areas such as catering and truck-driving lend themselves to Aboriginal people.
We are seeing native people move into the technological and modern society. I suspect it takes patience and a certain amount of willingness from society to see these things happen. In the North, Aboriginal people are in the majority. In places such as Nunavut, they have a good chance to control the political and economic state.
As Canadians, we pride ourselves on being different from Americans. There is a Canadian notion that we are gentler and kinder. Is society in Toronto open enough that eventually Aboriginal people will make their way and have a good future and good lives? Is there hope?
Mr. Williams: They are starting to do that. Many people are starting their own businesses. They are becoming successful. They are hiring Aboriginal people to work with them. This is a good step in that direction. If we get to the stage where we can be, like all the other nationalities and just shop within our own area and keep the money circulating there, we would be all right. Right now we are scattered too far.
Mr. Commandant: I would like to make the comment that in all these well-intentioned endeavours, things will progress and then we have a new government and things will change. We have never had a level playing field. If we had the opportunity to have that, we would be able to take those steps and become a fuller part of society. We will be a little different, but at least we would have those opportunities to be successful.
Consistency would be lovely. I cannot think of 10 years that have gone by that we have not been put into a knee-jerk reaction, to a governance initiative or something new coming down the pipe. We have never had a chance to work things through. We are always in flux.
Senator Sibbeston: I could not help thinking of Crocodile Dundee, who comes from the outback of Australia to the big city, and is not familiar with how the city works. He goes to a hotel and does not know what the toilets are for. He sleeps on the floor and walks on the main street with a big knife and says ``hello'' to everybody.
In some respects, it is that contrast. Aboriginal people who come from rural areas to the city are not familiar with the lifestyle and the ongoing society. Therein lies the problem. Will the two ever meet?
Mr. Commandant: That is a problem. If you come from a northern community, you are used to hunting and fishing and you can live off the land. In southern Ontario, where I come from, you could not live off the land anymore; there is no way. The water is polluted; the ground is saturated. You even have to buy bottled water. That is unfortunate. That is the way times change. You have to learn to go with it, good, bad or wrong.
The Chairman: Old traditions die hard. I do not walk with a big knife, but I still say hello to everybody.
Mr. Williams: And you get the odd, weird look.
The Chairman: Yes, I do, but I still say hello.
Senator Léger: This is along the same line. Ms Martin, you were talking about multiculturalism seems to be the ``in'' word. We hear it everywhere and the Aboriginals are lost in all the issues. Which is true. We identify the Chinese but we do not identify the Aboriginals in the same way. For the Aboriginal, it is not the same. They do not even have a status in that dimension and they are ignored in schools.
Ms Martin, you also talked about private enterprise and the matching funds. The private sector does not want to deal with Aboriginal issues because they say that it is a federal responsibility. We are terribly uncomfortable with these problems; that is quite clear. It is our fault, of course, and we know that but we need help to catch up.
Do you have Aboriginal programs or projects for schools? Do you send panels to the schools, not necessarily for the students but rather for the teachers when they have their study days? The private sector frequently invites guest speakers to their meetings. Perhaps you could be guest speakers at meetings of teachers on their professional development days. Everybody should hear what we are hearing at our committee meetings. Certainly the media should hear this.
Does that possibility exist? Have you been invited to such a meeting? Has money been put aside so that you could give this information to others? Many witnesses have appeared at our meetings.
Mr. Williams: We do get invited. I am frequently invited to talk to different groups. I will soon go to Sault Sainte Marie to talk to Royal Bank employees about business initiatives for Aboriginal people. Their vice-president said that the Royal Bank is in place for them but they do not listen because they do not understand. The bank needs someone from the grassroots level. We have a business at Six Nations that pays the government about $5 million in federal taxes per month. Do you know what we get back for community recreation? Zero. Last year we paid $60 million and next year, we will pay $98 million, and guess what: We will still get zero.
Parents and kids with their fund-raisers come to us and wonder why we cannot give them money. Well, we gave $5 million to the federal government and they do not give a dime back. If a school needs $35,000 for playground equipment for the kids, we cannot give it because we cannot promote our types of businesses to kids. I will make a presentation to the chief and counsel of that community to see if we can get money from the Casino Rama. That is what those profits are for — future generations.
Senator Léger: It sounds as though those who do invite you want tangible products, immediately.
Mr. Williams: Yes.
Senator Léger: I would like to see if you could sell who you are — that you are Canadians in this country. We have been brain-washed and we have always blamed government. However, we need help now and it should come from the Aboriginal people.
Mr. Williams: I agree with you. You just made a comment with which I disagree: we are not Canadians; we are North American because we can live on either side of the border or work on either side of the border. We are not Canadians.
Senator Léger: I am learning.
Mr. Williams: The history books show us as Canadian Indians, but there are no Canadian Indians. We were here before Canada developed. The attitude and the history books have to reflect that. I am never offended by the error but I do like to make the correction.
Senator Léger: It is important. I am a senator and I just made that error. You are not Canadians and therefore, you do not vote but you do pay taxes.
Senator Stratton: They do vote; they are Canadian citizens and they vote.
Mr. Commandant: We operate within Canada but we have the ability to be in the U.S. as well and pay taxes there. Our nations and our cultures are older than Canada is, but that does not mean that there is any reason for them to disappear off the map at any time.
Senator Léger: You are Canadian citizens but you are not Canadians.
Mr. Commandant: I can have a passport from Canada and utilize that to travel the world and I can vote. Many of our people will not vote in the Canadian system because it is contrary to their way of life.
The Chairman: That is another debatable issue for another time and place because we all have a responsibility to determine that. I tell people that my nationality is Metis and my citizenship is Canadian. That is how we have to look at it in this day and age. We have much debate on that.
Senator Léger: I am Acadian and a Canadian citizen. I have no problem with that.
The Chairman: That is a good, debatable issue. In the meantime, we are talking about urban Aboriginal youth. I have one little comment regarding ownership. My father refused to buy any land because he said: How can you buy something that belongs to the creator? We are the caretakers of the land. I still have problems with owing land — even though I do own some for that reason, but that is tradition. That is how it always was in those days.
We really have to look at the institutional life. The residential school, whether good or bad, taught our ancestors — and my family were part of it — institutional life. When they were 15 and 16, they said: ``Now, you go out and be parents.'' This is why our young people had always felt more secure in the jail system — it was another institution.
That sense has gone from generation to generation and we must break that cycle. I have seen and heard that during my years in organizing and working with my own people in the northern parts of our provinces.
Senator Chaput: Ms. Martin, you said something that struck me, and we have heard it before. You said that youth need healing and they need to connect with themselves and their community before anything else can be done. That is so true. You also said that it takes one-on-one help on a regular basis for a number of years.
How many people is one person able to help in one year on that basis? How many people can you help in one year?
Ms Martin: Each of our counsellors sees about five people per day. That amounts to 15 to 25 people per day times five days per week.
Senator Chaput: Do your counsellors experience burnout?
Ms Martin: Yes, they do. The work is very demanding. Our employment counsellors work with clients who are facing situations that the counsellors are not equipped to deal with. However, as we said, in the absence of any treatment centre, there is nowhere in the Greater Toronto Area to refer young people who have problems with substance abuse.
Senator Chaput: If you had two wishes granted to you tomorrow — one having to do with families on the reserves, and one having to do with the urban situation — what two wishes would you like? What two things would you like to happen?
Mr. Commandant: I think it would probably be the same for both of them; that they can have their lives within the Canadian society and have the same degree of respect and opportunity and future that most other Canadians have.
Mr. Williams: When I was a chief, I talked to an elder who said to me: ``Steve, we would like to keep our traditions alive, but I want my grandchildren to live in the 21st century at the same time.'' Is there a balance there?
Senator Chaput: I understand exactly what you mean because I am a francophone from a minority group. I cannot say if there is a balance, but that is what I want for my grandchildren, too.
Ms. Martin: From the downtown Toronto perspective, my wish would be for our people to be on an equal footing with other Torontonians — other people who enjoy the strong economy in Toronto. Almost on a daily basis, one of our people dies from exposure on the street in Toronto. My wish would address the homelessness in a holistic way.
Senator Hubley: I think that might have been the final question, and we might have ended there, but I will roll back just a little bit.
I want to talk about education. Our information tells us that the ability to earn a living and to provide for oneself is tied into education and that we will be able to find a way of providing for these young Aboriginal people.
You had mentioned that they do not have the skills to seek financial assistance. What is the availability of student loans, as we know them? Is that something that is also available to Aboriginal youth? Is that something that you might encourage for a stay-in-school program?
Ms. Martin: Our clients are eligible for the Ontario student loans. Again, we find that often they are not accepted for student loans. I am not sure what the exact issues are, but they come back to us and say it did not get approved. If they are applying to their First Nation for post-secondary education, often they have not lived on the reserve, so they are not a very high priority. Again, I want to emphasize that many of the Aboriginal youth in Toronto have never lived on a reserve.
They are not coming from a reserve necessarily — some are — but they are coming from adoption breakdown situations in many cases. They do not have the support systems of the families, even back on the reserve.
Senator Hubley: From your experience, is there anything within the student loan system that would be sensitive to some of those issues that young Aboriginal people might be bringing forward?
Ms. Martin: We find our clients, generally, are not successful; and an application is sort of a standardized mainstream application process.
Senator Hubley: It is not a user-friendly document for Aboriginal youth.
I have a quick question about mentoring. You had mentioned some very successful businesses and the success stories about young people. Is there a mentoring system, or do you use the idea of a mentoring system to help you in your work?
Ms. Martin: Yes, we do. It is one of the programs that fall under the Aboriginal Labour Force Development Circle. Again, it provides that one-on-one contact with a youth.
Senator Hubley: You had mentioned that, in your work, there really were not enough employees who could handle the numbers that were looking for it. Do you use a mentoring system to extend your work a little bit?
Ms. Martin: We would perhaps partner. An employer may provide mentorship to a young person.
Senator Pearson: I wanted to follow up on the Casino Rama thing. I was wondering if the Corbière decision would have any impact on that?
Mr. Commandant: I do not believe so, but it may, to some point, depending on the community. In my community, we treat our members the same regardless of where they are and we fund our students and we have been able to do that, to date. We fund them all, regardless of where they may reside, and try to give them every leg up they can possibly get.
Senator Pearson: My real question was to Ms. Martin, because one of the challenges is the issue of young girls getting pregnant in early years. You mentioned that yourself — the problems of helping those young people get employed and that sort of thing. I know your counselling is employment counselling. You have told us that there is no good treatment centre for Aboriginal youth for drug and alcohol issues. Is there any good counselling available on adolescent sexual and reproductive health? The young people tell us this is a huge issue.
Ms. Martin: This is a huge issue. Many of our clients are HIV positive. That has a widespread impact on the health issues of our clients. Yes, there is work being done; however, every organization in Toronto is over-extended if they are dealing with child welfare issues, and that includes teen pregnancy. The resources are limited, not just the financial resources, but the staffing resources as well.
There are limited places for referral. I have seen, over the years, that pregnancy is a survival mechanism for young women. When they have children, they are more likely to access subsidized housing and then get on welfare. The more kids, the more welfare.
Senator Pearson: It is a very poignant issue. On the one hand, as we augment the child tax benefit, are we augmenting that particular tendency? On the other hand, if the girls have a sense that they have a future, the more likely they will be to delay pregnancy. They do not choose necessarily; it is just a survival mechanism.
Do you have any suggestions? We are looking for recommendations on this area of sexual reproductive health and education for girls?
Ms. Martin: We do not personally deliver the services through employment and training. We provide referrals to native child and family services, Anishnabe health. There are a lot of issues such as the abuse of women and children associated with that.
Senator Pearson: We have talked about the residential schools, but in total numbers, probably more Aboriginal children have had to live in the foster care system. There are also the adoptees that you talk about. It is, perhaps, not as easy to grasp as the residential schools, but it has had some of the impacts in terms of abuse, lack of models and that kind of thing.
Ms. Martin: On a daily basis, we see clients who have been in foster homes and have been abused in some way.
The Chairman: I should like to thank each and every one of you. It has been very interesting and important. I am impressed with your recommendations. This committee is developing an action plan for change, so your recommendations are being taken seriously. My hope is that we can make a change in a few things. Not only that, but this will give us the ammunition to be able to try to regain a level playing field.
Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
The committee continued in camera.