Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Security and Defence
Issue 1 - Evidence, October 23, 2002
OTTAWA, Wednesday, October 23, 2002
The Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 6 p.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Ms. Barbara Reynolds, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, as clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am ready to receive motions to that effect. Are there any such motions?
Senator Atkins: I move that Senator Kenny be chair of this committee.
Ms. Reynolds: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Atkins that the Honourable Senator Kenny be chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Reynolds: I declare the motion carried and, in accordance with rule 88, the Honourable Senator Kenny is elected chair of this committee. I invite Senator Kenny to take the chair.
Senator Colin Kenny (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, honourable senators. It is nice to be doing this officially after doing it unofficially for the past while.
Senator Forrestall: No more non-meetings.
The Chairman: Ms. Reynolds has a list of motions that I will endeavour to work through as speedily as we can. Item number 2 on the agenda before you is for the election of the deputy chair. Are there any nominations?
Senator Smith: I move that Senator Michael Forrestall be the deputy chair.
The Chairman: Any other nominations?
Nominations are closed. By acclamation — it did not take a vote, even.
Senator Forrestall: Thank you.
The Chairman: Item number 3 is the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. The motion is:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair and one other member of the committee, to be designated after the usual consultation; and
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and to schedule hearings.
There have been some consultations. Are there any nominations for the other member of the committee?
Senator Forrestall: I move Senator Jane Cordy to be the third member, thus giving attention to the niceties of procedure.
The Chairman: Are there any other nominations?
Then I take it nominations are closed, and Senator Cordy will be congratulated when she gets out of whatever organizational meeting she is currently attending.
The remainder of item 3, I take it, is carried.
Item number 4 is a motion to print the committee's proceedings. It states:
That the committee print 200 copies of its proceedings; and
That the Chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand.
Senator Forrestall: May I ask the usual question of the clerk? Were the numbers and quantities found to be sufficient in the past?
Ms. Reynolds: Senator Forrestall, these numbers are based on the actual consumption, and it is for the everyday proceedings. Obviously, when there is a report, we augment the number, but we need 200 to fulfil the requirements.
Senator Forrestall: Thank you.
The Chairman: Would you care to move that, senator?
Senator Forrestall: Yes, I so move.
The Chairman: It is moved by Senator Forrestall that we adopt motion number 4. Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Motion number 5 is authorization to hold meetings and to print evidence when a quorum is not present:
That, pursuant to rule 89, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition be present.
Senator Banks: I so move.
The Chairman: All those in favour? Motion carried.
Number 6 is financial report:
That, pursuant to rule 104, the Chair be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee during the last session.
Senator Cordy has moved that. Is there any discussion? Are all in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion No. 7 relates to research staff:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the committee;
That the Chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject-matters of bills and estimates as are referred to it;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the Chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
Senator Cordy: I so move.
The Chairman: Any comments? Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
Motion No. 8 is as follows:
That, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair and the Clerk of the Committee; and
That pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and Guideline 3.05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the Committee be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair and the Clerk of the Committee.
Senator Banks: I so move.
The Chairman: Any discussion? Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Motion No. 9 is as follows:
That the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the Committee.
Senator Smith: So moved.
The Chairman: Any discussion? Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion No. 10 states:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
(1) determine whether any member of the committee is on ``official business'' for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
(2) consider any member of the committee to be on ``official business'' if that member is: (a) attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of the committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee.
Senator Forrestall: This is perhaps not the forum to determine this but, from time to time when we are in various locations, senators from the area have been known to attend our meetings. On one such occasion, a senator attended and spent the better part of the day with us, and then, on her return to Ottawa and making out her attendance record, claimed her participation with the committee in her home city as a day on government business, and it was disallowed. I do not know who should deal with this question of senators who may join us in Montreal, Toronto, Halifax or wherever it may be that the committee is duly called to order for the purpose of hearing evidence or fact-finding. I do not know how we deal with a senator's presence in terms of the roll for the house, but I would like some comment and observations and, if it is necessary, to ask that the clerk refer this matter to the rules committee or to some other august assembly of our Senate for a response. After all, Hell knows no fury such as one scorned by the clerk of our chamber.
The Chairman: If I may comment, it is my understanding that the individual should have been counted as present. Having said that, if there were a problem, she or he could still be on public business and not on government business. The distinction between the two is this: it is government business when a minister asks you to go somewhere, and it is public business when you decide for yourself that you have something that fits within the rules. I think that someone in the clerk's office made an error and it could be easily rectified, even retroactively.
Senator Atkins: There is one caveat, and that is: subject to the fact that the clerk of the committee reports that this person is in attendance.
The Chairman: The clerk should certainly report any senator who comes in and, to the best of my knowledge, that has always been the case. In fact, a senator has only to walk through that door and out that door and he or she is credited with attendance at the meeting. That is the procedure. I presume that happens but, in the event that, when one is reviewing monthly attendance, it is not marked thus, then it is simply a matter of writing to the clerk to request a correction if an oversight has taken place.
Senator Atkins: I was absent but on public business.
The Chairman: Yes, and it should be marked accordingly.
Senator Atkins: I think that is the answer.
The Chairman: I mark off Mondays and Fridays if I attend a public function simply because, at some point or another, the press will inquire about whether I showed up for work; otherwise, they would not know.
Senator Banks: I do that as well. If I am delivering a speech somewhere, I count that as public business.
Senator Atkins: Absolutely.
Senator Forrestall: I agree, but it is vague now. While we do many things by way of practice, and that practice becomes the rule, perhaps it would be the responsible thing to refer the matter because some document has to be rewritten. It could be done committee by committee because they are, to a certain degree, in control of their own rules and destinies. Otherwise, we could amend that to say, ``any member of the committee or senator...''
The Chairman: Senator Forrestall, before we proceed on this, would it be possible for us to ask our clerk to provide you with a copy of the Rules of the Senate to know whether they satisfy you?
Senator Forrestall: You do not have to satisfy only me. A senator was somewhat offended, more than anything else, because she was not granted attendance. To my knowledge, that has not been corrected in any formal way.
The Chairman: It is a matter easily corrected. It is covered by the existing rules and does not require any further clarification by the rules committee. We could show you, or her or whoever, the rules on that issue.
Senator Forrestall: I can only tell you what the clerk of our chamber said, and it was not said casually. This is not a casual mistake. However, I accept your ruling, chair. That is fine.
The Chairman: If you could move the motion, please.
Senator Forrestall: I so move.
The Chairman: Any comment? Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Motion No. 11:
That pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses' expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the Chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
Senator Banks: I so move.
The Chairman: Any comment? Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
We now turn to motion No. 12:
That the Chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
Senator Wiebe: I so move.
The Chairman: Any discussion?
Senator Atkins: Does this have to be approved by the Senate?
The Chairman: Yes, and, as a consequence, unless we get it to the Senate, we cannot have our next meeting televised.
Senator Forrestall: What is the status of our negotiations with CPAC?
The Chairman: The status of our negotiations with CPAC is such that they came to a grinding halt in May. We intervened before the CRTC; and I sent all senators a boringly long letter, I am afraid, relating to that intervention. I would be happy to re-send that letter to you.
Senator Banks: The letter was long but not boring.
The Chairman: Thank you. Boring but long.
I am told that we should expect the ruling tomorrow.
However, if I may, a whole raft of problems needs to be addressed in addition to that. The analogue cameras that you see here are burning out and we cannot get replacement parts for them. To get digital cameras in, it will cost $2.9 million.
Senator Forrestall: Are you selling these for $1?
The Chairman: We are not. We are hoping that they will last throughout the year, or else we will be reduced to one air pack, which means that only one committee at a time can be televised, and it could cause us real problems.
Senator Forrestall: How did we get trapped into this?
The Chairman: We bought them some time ago when digital cameras were not state of the art. These were a good price. They have served us well for about nine or ten years, and that is more than the life of most cameras.
Senator Atkins: Do we have any advance info?
The Chairman: None. Believe me, no one is more interested than I am to find out the results of that.
Would someone care to move this motion?
Senator Forrestall: I so move.
The Chairman: Those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
We have some items relating to the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. Do I need to ask for motions for each of these?
Ms. Reynolds: You can do it as one. You have to put in the names.
Senator Forrestall: May I have the honour of moving that?
The Chairman: Yes, of course.
Would you like to read it for us, deputy chair?
Senator Forrestall: For the record,
That the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs be established to study matters relating to veterans affairs which may be referred to it from time to time by the committee;
That the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs consist of five (5) members, three (3) of whom shall constitute a quorum;
That the initial membership of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs be as follows...
The Chairman: Could we pause here for a moment, senator?
Could I have some indication from the members present as to who would like to serve on this subcommittee?
Senator Atkins: Before you do that, did we decide who will chair the subcommittee?
The Chairman: I certainly have a person's name in mind and I was hoping to put that forward. I wanted to get some sense as to whether the people who served on the committee before want to continue to serve on it and whether new people want to serve on it. There is a requirement for an organizational meeting of that committee. When that happens, that is when the election will take place. Our clerk would repeat this same routine.
Senator Atkins: In terms of party representation, it would be three and two. Would that be your suggestion?
The Chairman: That would be fine with me. I would also be inclined to have the same chair as we had in the past, if the committee were comfortable with that.
Senator Wiebe: Very comfortable.
The Chairman: It seemed to work well before.
Please raise your hands if you would like to be on that committee.
Senator Forrestall: Virtually all of them have raised their hands. I should like to sit as a spare.
The Chairman: Senator Day also expressed some interest.
Senator Atkins: Are we are talking about Senator Meighen and myself from our side?
The Chairman: Yes, and myself; and Senator Day and Senator Wiebe from the other side.
There has been some expression of interest from someone who is not on this committee to sit on that committee.
Senator Banks: Is that against the rules?
The Chairman: No, it is not. It is kosher and it can be organized. It would require us adjusting the membership and the size of the committee. I have talked to the individual, and I have undertaken to provide that individual, through the clerk, with papers and notice of when the meetings will take place. The individual has not decided whether she wants to be on the committee on an ongoing basis, but she would certainly like to familiarize herself with the work of the subcommittee. I think we would agree that we would do that for any senator who wants to see what the subcommittee does.
Senator Wiebe: It is my understanding that any senator can attend any subcommittee meeting. The only difference is that a senator who is not a member of the committee cannot cast a vote, although they may ask questions.
The Chairman: That is correct. That is basically the situation. In the event that we wanted to put someone else on the committee, one of two things could happen: someone could step down; or we could decide to alter the size of the subcommittee. That is within our capacity.
Senator Banks: Do I understand you to be saying that the senator who wishes to be involved in that committee would be sitting as a non-voting member of that committee?
The Chairman: That is correct.
Senator Banks: Was my previous understanding correct, that voting members of the subcommittee must be members of this committee?
The Chairman: That is not correct.
Senator Banks: I was asked to be on a subcommittee a little while ago, one that I was interested in, but I was not a member and could not be a member of the committee of which it is a subcommittee. It was explained to me that the means that would be used which would permit me to be on the subcommittee would be the substitution rule, that a member of the committee, as opposed to the subcommittee, would be unavailable on that day on a permanent basis and that I would be put in as a substitute with the approval of the whip. That was the process I was told had to be followed if a person was to be a member of the subcommittee who was not a member of the proprietary committee.
The Chairman: Senator Wiebe, did you want the floor?
Senator Wiebe: Yes. I guess I am living proof that whoever gave you that advice was wrong, because when I first sat on the Veterans Affairs Committee, I was not a member of the committee that organized the subcommittee.
The Chairman: Before we defer to the clerk, who always has the last word on these issues, I think that the advice you got was they did that rather than go back to the full committee and expand the subcommittee. It was one of two ways to go about it.
Will the clerk tell us whether any of us are talking sense?
Senator Atkins: I have a question first. If a decision were made by the subcommittee — and I doubt if there has ever been a vote, because I have never experienced it — would it be referred to the full committee?
The Chairman: I do not understand the question.
Senator Atkins: If there were something controversial, would the subcommittee refer the matter to the Standing Committee of National Security and Defence?
The Chairman: The subcommittee is a creature of this committee.
Senator Atkins: It is not a big deal. We could invite anyone who wants to sit on the subcommittee.
The Chairman: Frankly, the only time I believe it becomes an issue is when you start getting into travel expenses or those sorts of problems.
Senator Atkins: I have never seen a vote in the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs.
The Chairman: We have not had too many votes in this committee either.
I will ask the Clerk if we are on the right track generally.
Ms. Reynolds: Honourable senators, it is necessary to be a member of the full committee in order to be on the subcommittee, but you can do a substitution. There have been people who have served on the subcommittee who were simply substituted immediately before the meeting and immediately after the meeting.
Senator Wiebe: That never happened in my case.
Ms. Reynolds: Some paperwork was probably done on this that you may not have been aware of at the time, but the clerks check very carefully to ensure we get the appropriate documentation. I know that, on at least one occasion, I have had the paper passed to me literally at the door of the room. Another one was passed back to me as soon as the meeting was over. The senator literally was on the subcommittee for the 55 minutes that the meeting was held.
The Chairman: That is intriguing, because I share the same perspective as Senator Banks. I thought I was part of a Rules Committee at one point where this was worked out, but maybe I misunderstood.
Ms. Reynolds: Let me check on that, if I may. There is a limit, however, on how large a subcommittee can be, and I believe the relevant rule is 96(5):
Subcommittees shall be composed of not more than half the number of members of a select committee...
The Chairman: Then we already have a problem, do we not?
Ms. Reynolds: You have nine members plus two ex officios, so you have 11 members.
The Chairman: Well done. Thank you.
If it would help you, Senator Forrestall, the names that you were going to insert have been written down.
Senator Forrestall: May I continue? Honourable senators, it would be as follows:
...the Honourable Senators Meighen, Atkins, Kenny, Day and Wiebe and that the substitution in membership be communicated to the Clerk of the subcommittee;
That the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs be authorized to send for persons, papers and records, whenever required, and to print from day to day such papers and evidence as may be ordered by it;
That, subject to the approval of the Senate, the committee's power to permit coverage by electronic media of meetings be conferred on the subcommittee;
That, pursuant to Section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, the committee's authority to commit funds be conferred on the subcommittee;
That, pursuant to Section 34 of the Financial Administration Act and Guidelines 3:05 of the Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, the committee's authority for certifying accounts payable be conferred on the subcommittee;
The Chairman: We have a motion before us. Any comments? All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Wiebe: If I can carry this a little further, could our clerk check that out for us so that we can have some certainty? At our organization meeting of the Veterans Affairs Committee, I was the deputy chair. If someone is elected as deputy chair of a committee and they have to get permission every time they attend a meeting to be a member of that committee, it seems rather strange to me. The leadership asked me if I would serve on that committee and asked if I would serve as deputy chair. I did not know what committee it was under at the time.
Senator Cordy: Social Affairs.
Senator Wiebe: I had never been a member of the Social Affairs Committee.
The Chairman: We will look into it.
Senator Wiebe: I would like some information just to put my mind at ease, because I have been telling everyone they are wrong, as I told Senator Banks.
Ms. Reynolds: If I might read rule 96(4), and this is about subcommittees:
A select committee may appoint from among its members such subcommittees as it may deem desirable which shall report back to the committee. The rules applicable in the committee shall apply mutatis mutandis in the subcommittee.
My reading of that is that you appoint the members of the subcommittee from the membership of the committee, but I will check on that specific item for the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs when it was under Social Affairs.
The Chairman: A member of the leadership came to me about this individual as well, so it is a widely held rumour if it is a false one.
Ms. Reynolds: I will check on that and prepare the appropriate documentation.
The Chairman: I will not turn to item No. 13. The time slot for our meetings is Mondays, and we have already had informal discussions about when we would have full days and when we would sit for only part of the day.
Is there anything else we need to do before we continue in camera?
Ms. Reynolds: No.
The Chairman: We will now continue in camera for the remainder of the meeting.
The committee continued in camera.