Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Security and Defence
Issue 13 - Evidence - March 31 meeting
OTTAWA, Monday, March 31, 2003
The Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 5:00 p.m. to examine and report on the need for a national security policy for Canada.
Senator Colin Kenny (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Today the committee continues its hearings on federal support for first responders.
I am a senator from Ontario and I serve as chair of the committee.
Our deputy chair is the distinguished Senator Forrestall from Nova Scotia. Senator Forrestall has served the constituents of Dartmouth for the past 37 years, first as their member of the House of Commons and then as their senator. Throughout his parliamentary career, he has followed defence matters and served on various defence-related committees, including the 1993 Special Joint Committee on the Future of the Canadian Forces.
Senator Joe Day from New Brunswick is a successful lawyer and businessman. He was appointed to the Senate in 2001. Senator Day is deputy chair of both our Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs and the Senate Committee on National Finance. He also sits on the Senate Committee on Transportation and Communications.
Senator David Smith from Ontario has served as a councillor and deputy mayor of Toronto, as a member of the House of Commons, and as minister of state prior to his appointment to the Senate in 2002. As a senator, he is a member of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs and of the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and Rights of Parliament.
Ours is the first permanent Senate committee with a mandate to examine the subjects of security and defence. Over the past 18 months, we have completed a number of studies, beginning with the report ``Canadian Security and Military Preparedness,'' a study of the major issues facing Canada, which was tabled in 2002.
The Senate then asked our committee to examine the need for a national security policy. To date, we have released three reports on various aspects of national security. The first was ``Defence of North America: A Canadian Responsibility,'' which was issued in September of 2002. The second was ``For an Extra 130 Bucks...Update On Canada's Military Financial Crisis, A View From the Bottom Up,'' which was issued in November 2002. The third was ``The Myth of Security at Canada's Airports,'' which was issued in January 2003.
The committee is in the process of a long-term evaluation of the federal contribution to the work of men and women across the country who first respond to emergencies or disasters.
The committee interrupted its work to prepare for its trip to Washington that took place last week.
We began our work on the federal contribution to first responders on October 1, 2001, just weeks after the September 11, 2001 tragedy. The committee was then briefed about federal programs by officials of the recently formed Office of Critical Infrastructure, Protection and Emergency Preparedness, called OCIPEP for short.
The policy of the committee, however, was to test what we were told by officials in Ottawa against what we learned from first responders themselves. On its travels, the committee has so far visited first responders in Regina, Edmonton, Vancouver and Windsor. To date, we have heard from first responders representing the cities of Toronto, Ottawa and Gatineau.
This evening, our first witnesses will be Chief Glen Tait from the fire department of Saint John, New Brunswick and Mr. David Blackmore, Director of Building and Property and Manager of the Emergency Operations Centre of St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador.
Gentlemen, welcome to the committee.
Mr. Glen Tait, Chief, Saint John Fire Department, City of Saint John: Honourable senators, I joined the Saint John Fire Department in 1969. I have advanced through the promotional system, holding such ranks as, Lieutenant Training Officer; Deputy Chief, Programs and Plans, as well as my current position of Fire Chief, which I have held from 1993 until the present time.
Over the years, I have attended numerous educational training seminars. I have sat on and chaired many committees. I have a wide background of experience and a diverse knowledge of the fire and emergency response services.
The topic today, disaster preparedness and the state of readiness and capability of the first responder, is dear to my heart.
The objective of this presentation is to convey to this standing committee the importance of emergency planning and security, and appropriate resources for our first responders to effectively deal with the disasters and emergencies that impact the communities in our nation. In order to achieve this, I will provide honourable senators with an overview of the key characteristics of the effective emergency planning and identify some of the key resources that are required to respond to these events.
Finally, as a chief fire officer and a 34-year veteran of the fire service, I will provide honourable senators with my observations of the issues that need to be resolved to ensure that the first responder can meet the ever-increasing expectations of the public as well as those of the elected officials.
Disasters are events that require extraordinary efforts beyond those needed to respond to everyday emergencies — Noji, 1997. Emergencies, on the other hand, are serious events that fall within the coping abilities of the individuals or communities. Disasters are even a greater concern today than in the past, and that is so for several reasons. The frequency of disaster events has increased due to technology and the circumstantial increase in the potential for technological disasters to occur. Human populations are also more densely populated, increasing the potential for exposure to disaster events as they occur. In addition, because of the increasing population size, people are more likely to build, live or work in areas with high disaster potential — Comerio, 1998. Finally, recent events have demonstrated the willingness of some radical groups to engineer massive disasters to achieve political goals.
Disasters have traditionally been characterized as natural or man-made — Noji, 1997. Natural disasters are those produced by epidemics, famine and forces of nature such as storms, floods and earthquakes. Man-made or human- generated disasters may be either accidental or intentional — Comerio, 1998 — and can be further differentiated as complex emergencies, technological disasters, deforestation, material storage and other disasters not caused by natural hazards — Noji, 1997. Disasters vary considerably in terms of their frequency, predictability, eminence and destructive potential.
A number of factors contributes to the actual level of fire and emergency response capability that is provided by a community to respond to emergency and disaster situations. Some are natural or unconscious influences, and others come from conscious planning. The latter should dominate in our complex and relatively enlightened age. Managing emergency preparedness in a community requires involved decisions on how much is needed, how best to organize it in terms of methods, training and equipment, and to what extent it can be replaced by preventative measures.
The objective of this presentation is to demonstrate that, through conscious planning, there exists a reasonable state of readiness and first responder capabilities to respond to emergency and disaster situations in the City of Saint John, Province of New Brunswick.
I shall now turn to the subject of determining the level of fire and emergency response service. The method used to determine a community's level of fire and emergency response service capabilities is called a risk analysis. A risk analysis is a scientific process establishing the degree of risk in a community, and is comprised of three components that contribute to service level determination. The three critical components are vulnerability, probability and response time analysis.
These components demonstrate the type of risk analysis that is outlined to determine the level of fire suppression capabilities in the City of Saint John as well as any other city with a well-planned and implemented fire protection system. While this process is fire suppression and emergency response specific, it serves as an example of the type of analysis — although it may differ somewhat — that is required by emergency first responders, that is, police, health care workers, search and rescue workers, and so on, in determining service levels.
The first component, vulnerability analysis, is defined by staff of the National Fire Protection Association and, as researched by Insurance Services Offices, is based on the prediction of what will happen if any given structure does catch fire. It is also based on the manpower and water supply needs of individual structures — the identification and classification of property and life hazards.
Reviewing the following property classifications for Saint John provides assistance in determining the risk to life and property. We have residential properties, which carry a normal risk classification. Those are row housing, residential high rise, attached housing, subdivisions, wood-framed, multiple occupancy and heritage properties. We have one of the oldest housing stocks in Canada. We also have institutional properties that are classified to have a maximum risk. Those are educational facilities, churches, hospitals, and seniors' homes. Then we have commercial properties which are classified as having a high risk, and those are commercial businesses, downtown properties; commercial, mixed usage, that is, malls and box stores; and transportation, that is airports, railways and trucking facilities. The last classification is industrial with a maximum risk, and that is the import-export industry — and Saint John is an international seaport; the power generating plant; the chemical industry; heavy industrial, ship building; the brewery; the pulp and paper industry; industrial processing facilities; the nuclear generating plant; natural gas facilities; factories; and we have the largest oil refinery on the eastern seaboard. We are one of the most industrialized cities in Atlantic Canada.
A probability analysis is an aggregate assessment based on past statistical history that can be used only to predict the probability of future statistics. It can predict how many structures may burn, on average, but not which structures.
Saint John has a history of emergency events that supports the services that are being provided to its citizenry. An example is the uptown explosions caused by gasoline leaking from a service station and entering into the sewage system. Buildings in several blocks were exposed to danger and sustained a number of destructive explosions. The emergency measures plan was put into effect. Other examples include a fire in the City of Saint John jail that resulted in the death of 21 victims; a service station explosion that caused total building destruction with six deaths; and an explosion at the oil refinery that resulted in a $45 million insurance claim and one death.
As part of the emergency preparedness training offered by Arnprior, the Emergency Training Centre for Canada, the events that Saint John has experienced and how these situations have been mitigated has been used as a teaching tool.
The probability or likelihood of something happening is best described by Chief Alan Bruncini of the Phoenix Fire Department, a foremost expert in fire science behaviour who said that the longer it has been since the last major incident, the closer you are to the next.
The final component is response time analysis. Response time analysis is defined as, ``the time that elapses between the inception of the emergency and the detection of the time required to set up at the scene and commence application of an extinguishing agent.''
In determining response time, another analysis is used. A fire optimization study provides an analysis of fire station location and fire company deployment based on a replica of road and street networks in the municipality. It applies to this network apparatus; travel speeds developed from actual runs to emergency calls. The program checks the routes of travel between the fire station and the fire, emergency demand delivery point to determine the fastest or shortest, if preferred.
Saint John is only 47 per cent effective in meeting acceptable response times as determined by the standard setting agency, the National Fire Protection Association and the Insurance Advisory Organization.
Emergency measure initiatives undertaken by Saint John include an emergency measures plan. The emergency measures plan means any plan, program or procedure prepared by the province or municipality, as the case may be, that is intended to mitigate the effects of an emergency or disaster and to provide for safety, health or welfare of the civil population and the protection of property and the environment in the event of such occurrences.
Saint John was one of the municipalities, if not the first, in the Province of New Brunswick to have an emergency measures plan and to have that plan adopted by municipal government. After the horrific events of September 11, the mass destruction of the World Trade Center buildings, the Province of New Brunswick began to provide assistance in the development of emergency measures plans for many of the smaller municipalities that did not have the know-how, expertise and/or resources to develop their own plans.
Saint John has a state-of-the-art emergency measures operations centre, with the most up-to-date communication systems, radio, phone, and computer. Designated workstations are readily available for key stakeholders and roles are well defined.
Training is ongoing at the Canadian Emergency Preparedness College to lessen confusion and to ensure that each and every person manning the centre is well aware of his role, duties and responsibilities. A redundant site also exists in another part of the city in a separate facility, should the need dictate the utilization of an alternative emergency measures organization centre.
In addition to, and to enhance emergency measures operations further, the City of Saint John has recently purchased and placed into service a field unit, an emergency measures instant command post that is fully equipped. The emergency measures operations centre and emergency measures incident command post were funded in part by the federal government through the Joint Emergency Preparedness Program.
In addition to the preparedness level mentioned, there exists a number of other emergency plans and contingencies with key stakeholders, and those are The Saint John Port Authority, the Saint John Regional Airport, the Irving oil refinery, the Point Lepreau Nuclear Generating Plant, and recently a dedicated city staff person has been assigned the responsibility of liaison in developing and updating emergency plans, contingencies with industry and other high-risk property owners or operators.
In partnership in entering into a municipal-provincial government agreement, five regional hazardous material response teams are being established to provide response to incidents involving hazardous materials province wide, and $1 million for start-up equipment has been provided by the federal government. Saint John has been identified as one of those teams.
The Province of New Brunswick has approached the Saint John Fire Department to provide screening services for the entire province for all packages of a suspicious nature. The screening process will involve ruling out biological and biochemical substances, as well as radioactive materials.
In conclusion, the need for disaster preparation and plans for disaster response is greater today than at any time in history. The costs of all types of disasters are staggering in terms of death and human suffering, as well as dollars. With adequate preparation and timely response, the monetary costs of disasters could greatly be reduced. The savings in human lives that could result is another strong motivation for concerted community efforts in disaster planning.
Greater demands and expectations are being placed on first responders in these most difficult times. The real issue is that the sustainability of resources to meet those demands and expectations are coming into question. Shifts in priorities are moving away from protective services and placing greater emphasis on other important issues, such as transportation, streets, roads, water and sewage. Many municipalities are carrying heavy financial burdens with dwindling populations to support the tax base due to the exodus of people to the suburbs. Infrastructures are breaking down. Environmental requirements and controls are more stringent for any municipal government with inherent responsibilities to take greater measures at greater costs.
Unfortunately, choices must be made, and in recent years those choices have, in some cases, resulted in less monies being spent on protective services, leaving fewer resources available to respond to major emergency, disastrous incidents.
This recent shift in priorities by municipal governments is quite similar to that of the federal government, which has downgraded, restructured and in fact weakened this country's military force until it has been described by many as only having peacekeeping capabilities.
As the municipal infrastructures have been weakened to a state of disrepair, it appears that the infrastructure for first responder capability is now being weakened to a level that expectations cannot and will not be met.
The questions that needs to be asked are: Who will respond and with what resources when the need arises? What state of readiness is this country really in to respond to major emergencies and to those incidences classified as disasters?
It is recommended that the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence recommend to the federal government that, first, the federal government recognize the financial burden that many municipalities experience and commit to providing a higher funding level to a long-term infrastructure program for municipalities, thus lessening the financial burden on municipalities and freeing up municipal funding to support essential protective services.
Second, it is recommended that the federal government recognizes the need for emergency preparedness and commit to provide adequate funding directly to municipalities to support first responder programs and initiatives, such as equipment purchase, replacement, training and program development.
Third, it is also recommended that the federal government seriously consider any and all initiatives and enter into partnerships with the other two levels of government that would simulate, revitalize and bring economic growth to the urban centres.
Mr. David Blackmore, Director of Building and Property, Emergency Operations Centre Manager, City of St. John's: On behalf of the City of St. John's I should like to express our appreciation for this opportunity to appear before this committee to discuss issues of common concern.
The City of St. John's has adopted the principle of emergency response management and has established a working emergency preparedness plan. Our plan identifies the roles and responsibilities for the various response agencies in a clear and concise manner, and relies on its agency members' cooperation and teamwork.
In terms of first response capacity, the City of St. John's has the capacity to deal with a wide variety of emergencies, including natural occurrences and/or man-made emergencies resulting from the operation or use of physical infrastructure.
The City of St. John's is the capital city of the Province of Newfoundland and we provide services beyond our geographic boundaries.
The city departments with first responsibilities include our Public Works department; our Engineering department, which includes water and sewer services; our Fire and Emergency Protection Services, including hazardous materials response, search and rescue, emergency and medical assistance, and high angle rescue; our Department of Building and Regulatory Inspection and Enforcement; our Information Services department, including GIS and GPS information management; and our Department of Human Resources.
Unlike some municipalities of similar size and diversity, the City of St. John's does not have direct control over policing. The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, a provincial body, is however a participating member of the city's emergency preparedness plan. Similarly, additional agencies also sit as members on the city's emergency operational control group within the city's emergency operation centre. These agencies include Human Resources and Employment for the Province of Newfoundland, Health Care Corporation for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and Health and Community Services for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.
In addition to these regular standing members that form a part of the city's plan, the City of St. John's has also established close contact with numerous volunteer agencies, private sector businesses, provincial and federal departments, including the Office of Critical Infrastructure Protection and Emergency Preparedness, and emergency measures organizations for the Province of Newfoundland.
The City of St. John's and its agency partners subscribe to an established tri-level protocol of the municipal, provincial and federal responsibility, and for the most part this protocol has worked well. The City of St. John's considers itself reasonably well trained and equipped to respond to most emergencies that would be considered likely response emergencies. By this I mean emergencies that may include weather-related emergencies, including floods, snow and ice storms of moderate to large intensity; localized hazardous material emergencies; structure fires and other related emergency medical services; and also limited aircraft emergencies. We are one of the first responders to the City of St. John's International Airport. In other words, I am referring to most emergencies that one would expect a major municipality would encounter and have the ability to deal with in the normal course of business.
I say reasonably well trained and equipped recognizing the need for improvement in the areas of communication, sustainable training and on-site decontamination for hazardous materials.
With respect to a major emergency situation that might be deemed a disaster, or a type that is so widespread or diverse that the city's resources would be exhausted, the City of St. John's, in keeping with the established protocol, would request and expect the assistance of the Province of Newfoundland. In turn, if such assistance were also insufficient to deal with the situation at hand, it would be expected that federal assistance upon the request of the province would be provided.
I should note that, to date, all our emergency response exercises have been structured around likely scenarios. An emergency scenario of a disaster magnitude has not been developed or tested to date, although we are in the process of developing an exercise for later this year, which will involve federal response, as well as provincial and municipal response.
The events of September 11 provided a real-life exercise involving all three levels of government and tested the abilities of our agency partners. The event provided a real-life test of our emergency shelter and accommodations ability on a large scale and highlighted the need for clear and concise communications. We are extremely fortunate in that we did not have to deal with the issues of loss of life or serious injury or loss of infrastructure during this event, as these certainly would have changed the dimension of the response dramatically.
The City of St. John's is fortunate in that lines of communication on a informal basis are well established within the response community at all levels. Municipal, provincial and federal counterparts communicate regularly on a first- name basis, and there is an inherent understanding that assistance will be provided when required.
There are, however, areas that still require improvement. These include direct liaison on a formal basis between the municipality and the federal government on those issues which may involve federal jurisdiction or national security which present a potential threat to the community; a greater understanding and written protocol for first responders to emergencies beyond the capability or responsibility of the municipality, that is, acts of terrorism; standardized training and physical resource management; and critical infrastructure assessment.
There have been informal discussions on these matters. However, from a municipal perspective, there needs to be a formal process driven by the appropriate federal department. It is my understanding that OCIPEP will be initiating discussion on critical infrastructure assessment in the near future.
Before closing, I should like to express the gratitude of the City of St. John's for the financial assistance provided to the various agency members under the federal JEPP program, as well as the financial assistance provided to the citizens of St. John's under the joint federal-provincial disaster relief program in response to the damages incurred from Hurricane Gabriel. Once again, I thank you for this opportunity, and I turn the floor over to you for questions.
The Chairman: Senator Forrestall just reminded me that when we were in Washington, we heard officials comment on the warm reception Americans received on September 11 in Gander, and about the appreciation they had for the help given by officials in Newfoundland generally in terms of making the 30,000 instant visitors comfortable.
Senator Day: Chief Tait and Mr. Blackmore, thank you very much for coming and for helping to illustrate to my colleagues on the panel and to those watching at home that there is a St. John's and there is a Saint John. We purposefully had the two of you together so everybody could see that. You are not from the same town.
The Chairman: I thought I would confuse things.
Senator Day: Chief Tait, in Saturday's newspaper in Saint John, there was an article showing first responders handling some potentially hazardous material in an unknown package. They were dressed in protective suits. Real-life stories seem to help a lot in understanding how this process takes place. I understand this was a real or actual potential emergency situation. I will circulate the article, which I have in my office, to my colleagues.
Could you explain what happened? Who took charge of the situation, and who were these responders?
Mr. Tait: It was an anthrax scare in one of the commercial properties in the city. It was a white powdery substance. The Saint John Fire Department was dispatched with their hazardous materials response team. Upon arrival, they evaluated and assessed the situation. They had to treat it like the worst-case scenario, as if it were anthrax. They are very well trained to handle that. ``They are now,'' I should say. They were not always so well trained. When that scare first came out, we had a difficult time getting information from anyone about decontamination procedures and how to handle the substance. We are very well versed on it now and have standard operating procedures to deal with it.
The team, under the direction of the instant commander, the District Chief, suited up with hazardous material response suits and full equipment. They went in, packaged the substance, and removed it from the site. They decontaminated everyone who had been exposed to it.
It turned out that it was not anthrax or any other hazardous material, but it was similar to those scares we had in the last year, after September 11 related to white powder. Of course, everyone was very suspicious about what this white powder was, and we had to go and mitigate the scene.
Senator Day: It is reassuring to the citizens of the City of Saint John and the surrounding area that you do have the team well trained to handle this. To whom would the call come — the police department or the fire department? Who takes charge, and what role does each play? How do you know what to do?
Mr. Tait: The call would go to the public safety communications centre. On those types of calls, they have a procedure that they follow step by step as to who should be dispatched. The police would be in charge, because it is treated as if it is a crime, but they are not trained to deal with packaging or removal. That is where the fire department hazardous material response team comes into effect and mitigates the scene. The police are ultimately responsible because it is treated as a crime scene.
Senator Day: Was the emergency communications office triggered in this instance? Was there someone in charge in the operations room who decided what was to be done?
Mr. Tait: They received a call from the manager of the building. They identified the substance. Based on their analysis, they go through a step-by-step procedure. They felt it was necessary to dispatch police and the hazardous material response team at the same time.
Senator Day: Would the police have the same training as firefighters to deal with a hazardous material or an unknown package?
Mr. Tait: No, they do not. They depend on the fire service to deal with those types of situations.
Senator Day: Do all of your firefighters have this training, or do you have a special group who are trained to handle this?
Mr. Tait: We have approximately 50 people trained to the technician level. Everyone is trained to the first responder level, where they read placards and do identification, but as far as suiting up and dealing with the hazardous substances, we have about 50 technicians altogether.
Senator Day: You mentioned in your brief that you have a nuclear plant and natural gas facilities as well as a shipyard and harbour in Saint John. There is the potential for liquefied natural gas. There is a lot of industrial activity, including the oil refinery. Do you have teams of people within the public service, for instance, the Department of Public Works in Saint John, who work with these large industrial operations, or are you expected to handle all of this yourself?
Mr. Tait: Some of these industrial companies do have onsite fire brigades, and we do train with them. At the Point Lepreau nuclear generating installation, they have very good training props, and we use those all the time. We train with their people as well.
Senator Day: You are aware of all the resources that are available.
Mr. Tait: Yes.
Senator Day: Are they all coordinated from one command centre?
Mr. Tait: Yes.
Senator Day: You highlight in your report the financial pressure on the municipalities. The money does not filter down to the municipality. In many municipalities, including the City of Saint John, we have seen the mayor and councillors making decisions to maintain their numbers of firefighters and police, let alone considering the prospect of improving and increasing those personnel to meet the new risks and the increased hazards.
You make three recommendations. Could you tell me first, in terms of the funding, what role does the province play in backing up your emergency response training and equipment to help cover a region?
Mr. Tait: Any money that has been made available would be made available through the JEPP program. You have to apply to the province. If they agree with the project, they will forward it to the federal government with their recommendations. Saint John has received some money from the provincial environmental trust fund for a decontamination trailer and for some training. However, most of the support has been federal money and it is based on the recommendation of the province. I do not have the current numbers, but the JEPP money was around $6 million for years. I think the Province of New Brunswick would get around $350,000. Sometimes the provinces have their own projects. It could be a communications system. They would use the money for that. Nothing would be left for the municipality, because it would not be a lot of money to start with.
Last year, the federal government made a fair amount of money available in another fund — I believe it was around $7 billion — for public safety, with $500 million going to first responder training and equipment replacement. The province got about $1 million, with which they bought a fair amount of equipment to set up the five regional hazardous response teams they want province-wide.
Senator Day: Is it your experience that municipalities have the funds to supplement the money coming from the federal government? If the federal program has a short-term life to give you equipment, from the point of view of training and continuing to repair that equipment, does the province or the municipality have the funds?
Mr. Tait: That is what I tried to point out in my brief. Since 1995, we have lost 42 firefighters just in the city of Saint John. The police lost similar numbers. This year, our department was cut by 25 people, which is significant. You would think the numbers would be going the other way, given the state the world is in today, and that you would be hiring more police officers and firefighters, but it is not.
The problem is related to the financial strain on our municipalities. We have water pipes in our streets that date back to the 1800s, which have to be replaced. We only treat about 50 per cent of the infrastructure outfall. The municipality, I suppose, is prepared to take the risk that nothing will happen, so they would not need first responders to the extent that they might, should some type of disaster or major emergency occur. There is not a lot of money for the municipality to support first responder programs to the level that they should be supported and sustained.
Senator Day: Mr. Blackmore, I would like to ask you about another actual event, and have you explain to the committee how the emergency preparedness protocol you have in place was triggered and how it responded. I am thinking of the situation my colleague Senator Kenny referred to in relation to September 11, with the diverted aircraft. A lot of aircraft landed in St. John's. Was your emergency preparedness program and plan triggered? Who took charge? Did you provide transportation? Was that all coordinated, or was that haphazard?
Mr. Blackmore: It was all coordinated.
I caught Mr. Tait's comments on the hazardous materials response. We have pretty well the same protocols in St. John's. The police treat it as a crime scene and we are the first responders for hazardous materials.
Going back to September 11, like everyone in the world, there was that initial shock when we heard about the World Trade Center. I was in a committee meeting at the time and someone interrupted to tell us what was going on. We placed a call to the airport right away, because it was an airline incident. Of course, there was the news media discussing the impact on the airlines and the planes being grounded. We immediately placed a call to the St. John's International Airport. They were in the early stages of receiving the planes.
Our Chief Commissioner at the time put out the call to set up our emergency operations centre. We had all of our agency members and our own staff proceed to the emergency operations centre. I proceeded to the airport to get a first- hand view of what was happening and to try to get some grasp on what this meant to St. John's. I was not expecting what we were about to receive, of course. We basically followed protocol. We set up our emergency operations centre, our EOC.
The first requirements we looked at were transportation and accommodations. The Ministry of Human Resources and Employment with the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador looked after accommodations and registration, in conjunction with the Canadian Red Cross and the Salvation Army. They put their plan into place, which was their responsibility as part of our team. We looked after transportation ourselves, because we have control over the bus systems. We contacted the airport, of course. There was ongoing communication to let them know we had buses available.
For the first few hours, it was somewhat confusing. There were a lot of different federal players involved, because of the type of incident. There was a lot of on-again/off-again with respect to deplaning, due to security and customs issues.
For a number of hours, we were in a stall mode. Once it was determined that the passengers were able to come off the planes and start fanning out, we had buses available. Many of the accommodation needs had been addressed or identified by that time, as well as locations. We set up our new Mile One Stadium as a reception centre for all of the passengers. They were brought through and processed for registration. Then they were fanned out to the various areas they would be staying for probably the best part of the week. It worked reasonably well.
There were issues of communications. We did have a situation where we had the St. John's EOC as well as the province set up to deal with the rest of the province. We had similar situations in Gander, Stephenville and Goose Bay. In fact, they had more people than we did in much smaller communities.
At times, the lines of jurisdiction would cross. We had the province dealing with the same issues outside of St. John's and, at times, it would become confusing with respect to who was doing what. Those problems were quickly put to bed and we handled it fairly well.
Senator Day: Was a mobile command centre in charge of communications in St. John's?
Mr. Blackmore: There were three mobile command centres. The fire department has a mobile command centre. The City of St. John's also has a mobile command centre, which was put together with the assistance of JEPP funding. As well, the Canadian Red Cross had a command centre. All of these command centres were initially dispatched to the airport. We were not sure what we were dealing with until we got out there. In the early stages, those command centres were used to assist communications.
As events unfolded, there was less need for the mobile command centres, because we were dealing with a location through which we could route all of our communications. The 911 communications are actually handled by the City of St. John's for fire department and police response, so it was under our control.
Senator Day: Did you at that time have any difficulty between the three command centres, in terms of who should take charge? If you did have some difficulties, which I would assume you would have with three command centres, what have you done to rectify that since then?
Mr. Blackmore: I would like to say that we have the problem solved, but we do not have it completely solved. Communications always seems to be a problem in any event. We do have protocol in place with respect to setting up emergency operation centres. At the airport, of course, they had their own emergency — I hate to use the term ``operation centre,'' I think they are changing it now — to deal with on-board emergencies. When they fan out beyond that, it comes under the control of the City of St. John's.
Being federal property, unless we are asked to come in and assist, we do not have a role to play. Situations still exist where you will get cross-communication. As I alluded to in my opening statement, we really need to work on the issue of communications. We have the protocol but, in reality, there are still problems.
Senator Day: That leads to my final question. You use the term ``inherent understanding.'' You say you have a protocol, and you have an inherent understanding of what someone else is going to do — in this instance, what the federal government or another level of government might do to help. Are you happy with that term? Is this a term that you hope to make a little bit more precise in the future?
Mr. Blackmore: We would like to make it much more precise. In a smaller community we all tend to know each other, and we know how to get the right person at the right time. If we cannot get that person, somebody else can get that person.
Senator Day: Somebody will know where he or she is.
Mr. Blackmore: Yes. We would like to make it more formal, more of a precise operation. We would like to have more direct communication at the federal level as well. We talk on a regular basis, but there is certainly a need to have more direct communication. We need a municipal person sitting on the province's team and vice versa. We do get together on various issues, and quite often on issues of funding, but we need to have a formal committee set up.
Senator Day: Is the reason that you have not achieved that yet a factor of time — just not having the time to do it — or is it a factor of money and resources?
Mr. Blackmore: It is a matter of resources. At the municipal level, we do not have a dedicated liaison officer. That is not a fulltime position. I am talking about all of our team members with the City of St. John's, not about other agency members who form part of our team. All of our positions are basically add-ons to our own positions. My position as EOC manager is in addition to my regular day job. That includes management of the plan. It is not a dedicated position for emergency response. It is difficult to be everywhere at once.
We have issues related to dealing with the federal departments. We have to channel our applications for funding or our requests through the province. It is the same situation as Chief Tait described.
Senator Day: We heard about that from other jurisdictions and other provinces.
Mr. Blackmore: Yes. There is another wrinkle in that. The province's Director of Emergency Measures Organization also has a dual role. His time is split. It is not a dedicated role. We would like to have more direct communication with the federal department on issues of common concern for the municipality, even if it is through informal discussions. OCIPEP deals with matters relating to national security and security clearances and so on and we do not know whether we can actually sit in on their committee meetings. That is something that they are trying to deal with as well. We have agreed to pursue that.
Senator Day: Have you had discussions with OCIPEP in that regard?
Mr. Blackmore: Yes, we have had informal discussions.
Senator Forrestall: May I move to a couple of areas not unrelated to what senators have been asking?
You may or may not be aware of the 1,500 medical caches that the federal authority has put in place around the country. Are you familiar with those?
Mr. Tait: Yes.
Mr. Blackmore: Somewhat, yes.
Senator Forrestall: Have you seen one of these caches?
Mr. Blackmore: I have not, but representatives of our fire department have.
Senator Forrestall: Do you know what is in them?
Mr. Tait: No, I do not.
Senator Forrestall: Could I be so bold as to ask why?
Mr. Tait: Poor communications, I guess.
Senator Forrestall: It is not something that you are relying on 100 per cent to solve your problems, is it?
Mr. Tait: No.
The Chairman: As a footnote, do you know where they are in your areas?
Mr. Tait: No, I do not know.
The Chairman: If we asked you to go out and check one for us, could you do that?
Mr. Tait: No.
Mr. Blackmore: I could not, no.
The Chairman: Do people working for you know where they are?
Mr. Blackmore: Yes.
The Chairman: Could you check one for us and let us know what is in it?
Mr. Blackmore: I could certainly endeavour to do that on your behalf.
The Chairman: Mr. Tait, do you think someone in your organization knows?
Mr. Tait: I would think it is unlikely. It could be, but I am almost certain that no one knows.
The Chairman: Is it classified on the Rock?
Mr. Tait: It must be, because we do not know.
Senator Forrestall: With respect to your capacity to handle decontamination, how many people per hour could you decontaminate? If you do not know, that is fine.
Mr. Tait: It would be difficult. We are really just equipped to decontaminate first responders, not mass casualties.
Senator Forrestall: If something happened in the neighbourhood of 50 or 60 homes, or four or five small apartment buildings, could you cope with the civilian population who would be exposed?
Mr. Tait: No, we have a small trailer with three chambers. You walk through each chamber and leave. It is just for first responders. It is not geared up for mass casualties.
Senator Forrestall: Living in the proximity of a major oil refinery and a nuclear facility, do you feel that what you have is adequate?
Mr. Tait: No.
Mr. Blackmore: Our abilities are much the same. We are dealing with decontamination of our first response staff from our emergency fire services. We do not have provisions for mass casualties within our own resources. We would rely on the province or the federal departments to be able to deal with that situation.
Senator Forrestall: Can I come back to one of our members who is not with us this evening? Senator Banks of Alberta is attending the funeral of the former Lieutenant Governor of that province. If he were here, I know he would want to ask some detailed questions about communications. I will ask you both to respond.
Can your fire department talk to the city police and the RCMP? Can they talk to the people who handle ambulance services?
Mr. Tait: Saint John has a tri-level response, so interagency communications between fire, police and ambulance can occur.
Senator Forrestall: Does it have to come back to a dispatch centre?
Mr. Tait: No, we can go into one talk group to communicate.
The province, within the next two to three years, is supposed to spend about $65 million on a trunked radio system provincially, which would be beneficial to police. They would be able to talk to police throughout the province through radio communications, which they cannot do now.
Senator Forrestall: Do you have a similar system?
Mr. Blackmore: At the moment in the Province of Newfoundland, the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary shares a common channel with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. They have just upgraded their system. We have discussed having a common channel with the fire services but, unfortunately, that has not come to pass.
Certain members of the RNC carry radios so that they can speak to fire services personnel, but the fire department's personnel do not carry the same radios to enable them to communicate with the RNC or to the RCMP. We have no direct communications. We can use our 911 centre. If we are running an incident command centre or setting up our POC, we can run our communications through our communication centre in the emergency response centre. A member of the RNC and a member of the fire services sit in that room. However, for most emergencies that we deal with, we do not have an emergency operation centre. We usually rely on the 911 centre to channel our communications.
We share our radios with some of the other agencies such as St. John Ambulance and the Red Cross, who both have communications centres. We have the ability to talk back and forth, but it is not a system in which you can broadcast to all the responders. From the municipality's perspective, we would like to pursue that possibility.
Senator Forrestall: Neither case is ideal, yet. There is much room for improvement.
Mr. Tait: Yes there is.
Mr. Blackmore: There is most definitely room for improvement.
Senator Forrestall: Mr. Tait, do you have the capacity to communicate with the military forces at Camp Gagetown?
Mr. Tait: No.
Senator Forrestall: Do you have contacts there?
Mr. Blackmore: Within our plan, we have contacts within National Defence. If we were in need of assistance, we would request the services through the province. We do have some direct communications through contacts.
Senator Forrestall: In these two areas, there is not much to suggest that you are as ready for a major disaster, natural or manmade, as you would want to be.
Mr. Tait: That is a fair statement for Saint John, New Brunswick. One of the biggest problems that we have is in- building penetration. The topography of the city is such that communication is difficult. There are many buildings from which you cannot communicate with the emergency responders, and the emergency responders inside the building cannot communicate with people outside the building.
Senator Forrestall: Is it because of the massive hills and valleys?
Mr. Tait: There are systems that cost a great deal of money that could work. However, we have many areas where firefighters with radios may be inside the building but cannot communicate with people outside the building. In- building penetration is a real problem for us.
Senator Forrestall: Measured against the national standards, you already have about 47 per cent effective response time. Does the inability to have effective communications frustrate you?
Mr. Tait: As Mr. Blackmore has already said, in any incident, the number-one problem is a lack of communications, whether it is radio or otherwise. Being a firefighter for a number of years, I can tell you that it is pretty scary being inside a burning building and unable to communicate to anyone outside. You are in there all alone. If you run into problems, there is no way to communicate that. Our police officers have faced that kind of problem out on the street. Not too long ago, a police officer had to walk a fellow, who had had a shotgun, up to the next block to so that he could communicate the situation with the communication centre.
Communication for first responders is as essential as breathing equipment, guns or anything else. It is one of the most essential items we require.
Senator Forrestall: Mr. Blackmore, in the absence of you having an active, vigorous and robust military group, we would be glad to offer you the Halifax Rifles. We would be pleased to let you have them from time to time. All we need is your goodwill.
Mr. Blackmore: We would take them.
Senator Forrestall: Actually, I had them earmarked to do the coastal patrol in Nova Scotia. People think I am joking about this but I am serious. They could do Newfoundland as well.
Senator Smith: In bringing up a melancholy subject, namely, money, I will tread lightly. I remember going on a flight many years ago where I sat beside Tommy Douglas. If there were anyone who could be sympathetic to public spending, it would be Mr. Douglas. I remember him saying, ``Whenever they say it is not really the money, you know it is the money.''
When you are a legislator, you have many competing, worthy objectives for precious public dollars that are a finite amount, not an infinite amount. You cannot meet all of the objectives, not even within your jurisdiction. Whether we agree with it, our Constitution, written in 1867, states that municipalities are totally the creatures of the province. In recent years, there has been a growing appreciation of the fact that at the time the Constitution was written, we were about 80 per cent rural and 20 per cent urban, at best. Now, it is the reverse.
It may not reflect modern times but the federal government may say that there are some public policy reasons why we should get into this. A good example of that in recent years was urban transit. There has been some movement in that direction.
One of the credibility checks that you can use to determine how high a spending priority this is for the other levels of government is to propose that there be cost-sharing. We must separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak to know what is to be paid for. We cannot pay for everything. The share need not match. The ration could be 35/15, perhaps. However, a credibility check on where the money is spent is important. Is this the kind of thing that you have in mind?
You made a comment that the federal government recognized the need for emergency preparedness and was committed to providing adequate funding directly to the municipalities. It is not that we would necessarily object to that, but then the provinces would scream that we are treading on their turf and that if any dollars are to go to those areas of jurisdiction, they should hand out the cheque. They may or may not say thank you, but it would be dolled out. Good government should not be concerned about who receives the credit for the effort. This is the reality.
Both of you are from Atlantic Canada where the provinces do not have the kind of revenues that Alberta, for example, has and so these issues are challenges. These challenges have to be addressed and understandings must be reached so that everyone is involved and will put out as needed. Would you comment on that? How would you react to that soliloquy of a melancholy but real dilemma?
Mr. Tait: As it was my comment, I will respond.
I am saying that it should be more accessible directly to municipalities.
The first responders, for the most part, to any of these disasters or major emergency incidents, will be the municipalities. It will not be the provincial government that will be providing the services. They do not have the infrastructure in place to do that.
Should it be 100 per cent the responsibility of the federal government or of the provincial government? No, it should not be. For the most part, the municipality has paid 50 per cent for my projects, cost-sharing with the federal government. The provincial government has not been involved. It is usually federal and municipal support, but we have to go through the provincial government, which is not a partner, in order to get the money. That is how it works.
You are right when you say that if it is a true partnership, municipalities should have to put some money into it. However, it is a difficult situation.
In 1992, Saint John, New Brunswick had a $90 million budget. They said that we had to manage ``smarter and shrewder.'' In 2003, we have a $90 million budgets. We have taken on many new costs on.
Senator Smith: Has the population increased?
Mr. Tait: The population has decreased. People are moving to the suburbs and to other parts of the country. The population in Atlantic Canada has decreased drastically over the years. Saint John is the fourth largest non- amalgamated city in Canada. It is a large geographic area to cover, and we do not have the population to provide the services.
Senator Smith: What is the population now?
Mr. Tait: It is just under 70,000. It was almost 90,000 in the mid-1980s. It is decreasing.
I read in the weekend paper that the president of the municipalities association for the province was saying that more money has to go to municipalities. He was talking about the infrastructure program. I agree that more monies have to be available. Saint John has major infrastructure problems. Being the oldest incorporated city in Canada, Saint John could use all of the infrastructure money currently available through the federal government program. The rest of the province also has needs, but our needs are great.
The manager of municipal operations who is responsible for many of these programs would agree with me. It is difficult to access the money through the province, even for infrastructure programs.
Senator Smith: The price tag put on the Toronto waterfront regeneration is $17 billion. I know how well that goes over in the rest of Canada. I hear what you are saying.
Mr. Blackmore: We face the same challenges in the City of St. John's.
With respect to first responders, the city has a fairly proactive program of fleet management. We have a fleet capital depreciation program in place whereby we are constantly upgrading and improving our equipment, which includes our fire department vehicles and first response equipment. All of our public works vehicles are upgraded and replaced on a regular basis. We are looking at five- to 10-year life cycles. We have been fortunate to be able to keep that program going, although it is competing with every other need, including recreational, community development, buildings, infrastructure, water and sewer services and other emergency response needs.
We do have access to the JEPP program through the province, but we recognize that we are competing with the remainder of the province and their needs.
We are the largest municipality in the Province of Newfoundland. We serve an area far outside of our boundaries. Our municipal fire services provide direct services to a number of communities with adjoining boundaries. Currently, we provide response to hazardous materials incidents for the entire Avalon Peninsula. We will respond at the request of the Province of Newfoundland. Our team in the City of St. John's has to respond to locations about 100 miles away.
As Chief Tait said, emergency funding tends to be a federal-municipal cost-share venture. However, we do receive provincial and federal funding through the various programs for infrastructure projects. Emergency response tends to be a federal and municipal joint venture.
The City of St. John's has recently come to the table with $275,000 to put in a new emergency operations centre. There has been no joint funding of that project to date. We have submitted an application. We have had no indication from the province whether it has been recommended. However, we are proceeding with it anyway. If we have to take it all on ourselves, we will. We see the need. Our current emergency operations centre is operated out of one of our fire stations, and we need to improve that facility. The city has come forward to provide the funding. We recognize our responsibility.
As Chief Tait said, funding is desperately needed. We would certainly be able to make a better case if we were dealing directly with those who take the funding applications.
The Chairman: I have questions Mr. Tait. The question of Gagetown was raised earlier by Senator Day. Why is not a base that size considered in your emergency planning if you are responsible for the entire province?
Mr. Tait: Each municipality has its own emergency plan. The plan that Saint John has is just for Saint John. If a state of emergency were declared, it would become a provincial and federal responsibility. It would have to be a significant incident or disaster for us to ever declare a state of emergency because, once you do that, you turn the control and responsibility over to the upper levels.
I am sure that personnel at Gagetown and other resources would be made available to deal with the incident.
The Chairman: Does a liaison officer from Gagetown ever come to your rehearsals? Do you ever invite someone from Gagetown?
Mr. Tait: No, we have never had anyone from the military in attendance.
The Chairman: If there were an emergency, and you called upon the military, would you be meeting with them for the first time?
Mr. Tait: Yes.
The Chairman: Would it be a good idea to include them in your rehearsals?
Mr. Tait: Yes, it would be.
The Chairman: Would you give it some consideration?
Mr. Tait: Yes, I will.
Senator Smith: How far away is Gagetown?
Senator Day: Less than an hour by car.
The Chairman: For the benefit of the committee and for the audience, can you identify for us what is involved in decontamination? You have that capability. What happens to someone who might be contaminated? What process would he or she go through?
Mr. Tait: First, you would have to identify the hazardous material involved. We deal with CANUTEC which has standard operating procedures. A chemist is on duty 24 hours a day. They would tell us how to decontaminate someone. For the most part, soap and water is used for most hazardous materials.
You would suit up with a hazardous materials response chemical suit so that you would not come into contact with the hazardous material.
The Chairman: What could a person who might be contaminated expect to happen to him or her?
Mr. Tait: It would depend on what it was.
The Chairman: Take an example and run us through what you have rehearsed on one of your exercises.
Mr. Tait: When anthrax first became an issue, team members wearing their chemical suits came right into my office after having been exposed. We found it amazing that we just could not get any information on how to decontaminate anthrax. You cannot kill the spores, and that was a real concern. Even CANUTEC could give us no information on that. It was a scary situation.
You must find out what is required to dilute or kill the contaminant. You must keep the water that is used for decontamination and not let it run off. For weeks we had barrels of water that we did not know what to do with.
The Chairman: Let us say I was living in Saint John and I called you because I was very nervous about a white powder that had mysteriously appeared in my living room. What would happen in my living room? What would you do?
Mr. Tait: We would go to the scene and assess the situation.
The Chairman: Let's say that you are not quite sure, but you think it might be anthrax.
Mr. Tait: We would treat it as though it were.
The Chairman: What would you do?
Mr. Tait: We would suit up and follow, step-by-step, the procedure for which we have trained.
The Chairman: What would I be doing at this time?
Mr. Tait: We would remove you.
The Chairman: Where would you remove me to?
Mr. Tait: We would take you out of the building.
The Chairman: Dressed as I am?
Mr. Tait: Yes, we would take you out of the building just as you were.
The Chairman: Then what?
Mr. Tait: We would have to decontaminate you.
The Chairman: What is involved in that?
Mr. Tait: We have a shower unit with a stall.
The Chairman: Am I still dressed?
Mr. Tait: You would take your clothing off and drop it right in the stall.
The Chairman: My clothing comes off in the stall. I am there as God made me?
Mr. Tait: Yes, you are. You would then shower under the 360-degree, high-powered nozzles.
The Chairman: Is this hot water you are shooting at me?
Mr. Tait: Yes, just hot water. It would not have to be, but it can be.
The Chairman: If I was really good you would give me hot water?
Mr. Tait: Yes, we would give you hot water. You would then proceed to the next stall.
The Chairman: Is soap used?
Mr. Tait: It depends on what is required. It may be bleach, but most times it is just soap.
The Chairman: Bleach does not sound very nice. Will bleach hurt me?
Mr. Tait: It would hurt your skin, but we would not use it on your skin. We would use it on your clothing. You drop your clothing and leave it there. For the most part, soap and water is used.
The Chairman: Will I ever see that clothing again?
Mr. Tait: No, that clothing is gone.
The Chairman: Let's hope that I was wearing a T-shirt and jeans.
Mr. Tait: You would then go into the next stall, put clothing on and leave.
The Chairman: Basically I take a shower, towel down and I am out of there?
Mr. Tait: Yes.
The Chairman: How do you know that I am okay?
Mr. Tait: We would follow the standard operating procedures dictated by CANUTEC OR CCINFO
The Chairman: What are CANUTEC and CCINFO?
Mr. Tait: CANUTEC is a federal centre in Ottawa that you can telephone about any hazardous chemical material. They will walk you through the process of evacuation, decontamination and mitigation step by step.
The Chairman: How long is the shower I would take?
Mr. Tait: It would be just a regular shower.
The Chairman: A five-minute shower?
Mr. Tait: Yes, about five minutes.
The Chairman: Is this shower in a truck?
Mr. Tait: It is in a trailer. We are fortunate to have a decontamination trailer. Many places have decontamination tents.
The Chairman: Let's say that it is the middle of winter and 50 of us were having a party and we found this powder. How long would it take you to handle 50 of us?
Mr. Tait: As I said a while ago, we are not equipped to deal with mass casualties. It is really for our own needs.
The Chairman: How many people can you deal with in an hour?
Mr. Tait: To go through the process thoroughly, we could perhaps handle 10 or 15 in an hour.
The Chairman: For how many hours could you keep that up?
Mr. Tait: We could keep it up for as long as it would take.
The Chairman: Would you have enough water, soap and new suits? Are they jump suits?
Mr. Tait: They are just disposable suits.
The Chairman: Would it be a sweat suit or something like that?
Mr. Tait: A disposable suit.
The Chairman: Is it good enough to get home in?
Mr. Tait: You could get home in it, yes.
The Chairman: What do you do with peoples' valuables?
Mr. Tait: That is a good question. As I said, we are not equipped to deal with civilians. I have had these discussions with the regional health centre. They are not equipped for mass decontamination. Some of them have converted ambulance bays for this purpose.
The Chairman: You are saying that you have enough supplies to take care of the fire department, the police or the officials, but not enough for the citizens?
Mr. Tait: Yes.
The Chairman: Do they know that?
Mr. Tait: Probably not.
The Chairman: They do now.
Mr. Tait: As I was saying, we cannot meet many of the high expectations, and this would be one of those.
The Chairman: You and Senator Smith were talking about money a moment ago. What is a reasonable amount? I know that is a difficult question to answer, but what is a reasonable amount of money for you to be able to take care of the people in a community the size of Saint John? Should you reasonably be able to take care of 50 of your citizens, 100 or 500? How many would you feel comfortable with being able to treat?
Mr. Tait: It would be irresponsible for me to make such a guess because I am just not sure.
The Chairman: I am not asking you to be irresponsible, obviously, but at some point you have to face the fact that you are carrying the can on this. It is you folks who are responsible for decontamination. If you do not know how many people you should be prepared to take care of, who does? Who should make this decision?
Mr. Tait: We do not accept responsibility for clean up, and decontamination would be part of that. We decontaminate our own people. With respect to decontaminating anyone who might have a health issue as a result of this, as far as I am concerned, that lies in the regional health area, not with the local fire or police.
The Chairman: Mr. Blackmore, you have heard the questions I have been putting to Mr. Tait. You have had the advantage of thinking about it for a minute or two. What would be your answers to these questions? I assume you would decontaminate in the same way.
Mr. Blackmore: Yes, it would be pretty well a mirror operation.
The Chairman: How many people can you handle in an hour and how many hours can you run this unit for? Are you in the same situation in that you can only take care of the first responders?
Mr. Blackmore: Again, our primary focus is on our emergency first responders, those people who are going into the site and lending assistance to remove people or the product. If you have enough water, enough soap, you can decontaminate quantities of people.
The Chairman: Do you have a trailer or a tent?
Mr. Blackmore: We deal with tents and the collection is in the tarps or the bladders. Some people call them swimming pools.
The Chairman: Will people be standing under what looks like an indoor pool in the middle of winter?
Mr. Blackmore: If there is inclement weather, we would have to look at transporting to an inside location, whether it be set up as a temporary situation in one of our bays or transporting to the local health care facility and they would do the decontamination there. If there were a large quantity of people, we would probably consider transportation. We would be involved with transportation.
The Chairman: Would that transportation include a city bus?
Mr. Blackmore: We would use a city bus or whatever was required. We could use one of our emergency response vehicles, depending on the volume of people. If there were a large volume of people, we would consider using city busses to transport the people.
The Chairman: Are you able to tell us about the numbers? You do not want to go home and just say that you will only take care of first responders; is that correct?
Mr. Blackmore: We are really set up to deal with our first responders, however, we would respond to the need. If that meant transporting people to a decontamination area, we would do that.
This is a timely question. Our director of regional fire services is discussing this topic now with the Province of Newfoundland and how to deal with the decontamination of quantities of people, even if large numbers of our own people require decontamination services.
The Chairman: Is this a costly set-up?
Mr. Blackmore: This setup is not overly costly for a field unit. If there were large quantities of people within a facility, it would be more expensive. However, you are dealing basically with soap and water. This is not a complicated process. Identifying what substance you are dealing with is much more complicated than the decontamination process.
The Chairman: Both your provinces are small in population and large in geography. Do we need to have a dozen of these facilities set up around the province to deal with 100 people in an afternoon? How quickly do you have to deal with people after they are contaminated? Obviously the sooner you deal with them the better; is that correct?
Mr. Blackmore: Dealing with them as quickly as possible is the best solution. The Province of Newfoundland is looking at setting up field units for hazardous response facilities as well as decontamination. If you were dealing with large numbers, you would transport them to a centre.
The Chairman: What are the targets? Are we looking at handling 1,000 people in a terrible emergency? Are we confident that, for these sorts of situations, 40 or 50 people would be sufficient?
Mr. Blackmore: We would tend to look at a lower number of people, but I cannot give an actual number. You would set up the actual unit and process the people through it. It would take time. With a large quantity of people, you would need multiple units to operate in a timely fashion. You would call in other centres to have decontamination units transported.
Mr. Tait: The Province of New Brunswick is establishing five regional hazardous materials response teams in the province and they have purchased six field units that cost approximately $60,000 a piece. The idea is that, if you had to draw on them, there would be five in the province. Five have been purchased.
The Chairman: How long would it take for the other four to get to Saint John, or vice versa?
Mr. Tait: You could get two of them there within about an hour and a half. These are fair-sized tents that could deal with a fair number of people.
We are moving in the right direction. We can draw on other resources in the province whereas, prior to that, we only had a little trailer. Some of them utilize home-made showers and there are little swimming pools that contain the water. The other municipalities use somewhat haphazard units. They are not as sophisticated as they should be.
These field units that the province has already purchased were purchased with federal money.
Senator Day: Saint John saw an anthrax scare on Friday or Saturday of last week. Did you decontaminate people, or were you able to quarantine them until you analyzed the powder? What did you do?
Mr. Tait: In that particular case, we did decontaminate a few workers.
Senator Day: How many workers did you decontaminate, and how long did that process take?
Mr. Tait: I believe three or four were in direct contact with the substance, and the decontamination process did not take very long.
Senator Day: By that do you mean less than an hour?
Mr. Tait: Yes.
Senator Forrestall: What would happen if you were situated down wind of the prevailing winds from Point Lepreau following a nuclear leak.
Mr. Tait: That is a timely question. We just met with the province last week to discuss some contingency planning regarding Point Lepreau.
The community of Saint John would not be affected by any raidation fallout from Point Lepreau. A 15- or 20- kilometre area would be covered. A community of 3,600 people would be evacuated, but that would not include people in Saint John. Point Lepreau is 26 miles down the road from Saint John.
Senator Forrestall: Where you would take the evacuees?
Mr. Tait: The evacuees would be taken to Saint John.
The Chairman: I would thank our witnesses for appearing here this evening.
The information you have given us is helpful. There are no black-and-white answers. We appreciate you sharing your views so candidly. Your information will assist the committee a great deal.
We will now hear from Mr. Rudy Fries, Emergency Planning Office, City of London, Ontario; and Mr. William Pasel, Emergency Measures Coordinator for the City of Hamilton, Ontario.
Mr. Rudy Fries, Emergency Management Coordinator, London-Middlesex Community, City of London: I would thank you on behalf of the City of London and the County of Middlesex for allowing me to appear before your committee.
Before moving to the four topics of interest, I should first like to give you an overview of our city, its past history of major disasters, and current risks. With a population of 336,539 and covering an area of 421 square kilometres, the London region is a vibrant, growing area. Traditionally known as The Forest City, the London region has expanded in the past few decades to embrace large commercial and industrial concerns.
London is also known for its university and medical research facilities. More details about London can be found on the Statistics Canada Web site. London's official date of founding is 1826. London has had some hard-times events dating back to 1825. Colonel John Graves Simcoe, first Governor of the colony of Upper Canada, set aside a Crown reserve of 3,850 acres. This land is now in the heart of the City of London.
With inadequate water supply and the presence of many framed buildings, fire was a constant threat in pioneer communities. On April 13, 1845, London's largest fire broke out and destroyed 300 buildings, about a fifth of the town. There were many more disasters, but a major occurrence was the flood of 1938, when the Thames River water level rose to 23 feet above normal and forced a mass evacuation. As a result, the Fanshawe Dam was built in 1953.
London lies in the snow belt area. The blizzards of 1971 and 1978 created transportation problems, and the Canadian Forces assisted in evacuation and assisting the fire department in road access to fire calls.
On September 2, 1984, a tornado ripped through London causing severe damage to both residential and industrial property. London lies in the tornado alley where tornados are a threat from April to October, and windstorms are a frequent occurrence.
Two railroads, CP and CN, pass through the heart of downtown. With 50 per cent of the nation's chemicals being produced in Ontario and a large amount transported by rail, that presents a major threat to London. An estimated 48 trains daily pass through London, with most of them containing cars loaded with hazardous materials. The most common chemicals transported through London through Via Rail are anhydrous ammonia, chlorine, propane, hydrochloric acid, gasoline, oil, flammables, natural gas and ammonia.
Under the Partnership Toward Safer Communities Program, London has been designated a List 1 site. A List 1 site is one that has large amounts of hazardous materials that could pose a threat to a community. In 2001, London received the recognition of achievement award in having achieved the essential level under that program. London has the common, natural, technological and human events and hazards that one would find in any major city in Canada with a number of industrial sites and in the midst of a transportation corridor, both rail and road. City boundaries include the 401 and the 402, the busiest highways in Canada.
Risk assessments and hazardous analysis will reveal that the following risks are present in London: Transportation accidents involving hazardous material by rail and road; hazardous materials fixed sites; tornadoes; floods; ice storms and blizzards; airplane crashes; building or structure collapses; dam failures; human health emergencies and epidemics; extreme heat and cold; critical infrastructure failures defined as water, food, electrical power systems, telecommunication, gas, oil and chemical industries, transportation, continuity of government services, public safety and security; war and international emergencies; terrorism; and special events.
How well equipped and trained are the local first responders in London to deal with a major disaster? London has had a Community Emergency Management Program in place for some time. Recent changes, with the passage of provincial Bill 148, the Emergency Readiness Act 2002, and the subsequent introduction by the Province of Ontario of the Framework for Community Emergency Management Programs, will substantially increase the level of community emergency management preparedness based on international best practices in four components of emergency management: mitigation and prevention, preparedness, response and recovery. This act will become effective on April 15, 2003. There are three levels of achievement: Essential, enhanced and comprehensive. The first level, the essential level must be achieved by April 15, 2004. Subsequent levels must be reached in 2005 and 2006.
London's first responders consist of the London Fire Services, London Police Services, Thames Emergency Medical Services and some components of city departments such as Social Services and Public Works. London has conducted annual exercises in which the community emergency response plan is exercised, involving all first responders, city departments, support and volunteer agencies. Exercise scenarios so far included derailments involving hazardous materials, evacuation exercises, blizzards, tornados and airplane crashes. A biological scenario in the form of a case study was presented during the fire chiefs' convention in London. Emergency response is a daily occurrence for all first responders, but the participation in exercises simulating a major disaster presents excellent opportunities to practice procedures.
Due to the similarities in Hazmat and chemical and biological radiological and nuclear training skills disciplines, the London Fire Services could respond to a very limited duration involving some chemical and biological agents. There is no CBRN — chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear — specific training. The London Fires Services has no CBRN detection equipment.
I will now turn to our hazardous material response. Firefighters are trained to the National Fire Prevention Association Code NFPA 472 operations level Hazmat response, and approximately 65 are trained to NFPA 472 technician level, trained for dangerous goods spills and release events. Police and medical services have not received any Hazmat training and have no protective equipment. There is a potential for decontamination of 30 to 40 patients per hour by the London Fire Services. Sustainability in any major disaster over a long period would require additional resources.
How do we envisage a useful role for the federal government in relation to other levels of government and with other communities? Our level of reporting in emergency management matters is through Emergency Management Ontario, or EMO. EMO provides training, resource materials, guidance and assistance related to emergency management. The area officer is in contact with us on a regular basis. He attends all exercises, special meetings, and reports to council and committees. I know that he will be of great assistance in seeing us through the new Community Emergency Management Program, which will be a challenge to administer. Our contact with the federal government in response- emergency preparedness issues is limited. Funding assistance and training are issue that could be discussed.
Should there be a stockpile of supplies? After September 11, the threat of biological terrorism acts prompted the Medical Officer of Health to make recommendations and requests for funding for an appropriate medical supply to at least protect first responders. That request was denied, as council felt that it was a federal and provincial responsibility. An inventory of supplies that could be used for emergencies such as food, clothing, bedding, et cetera, does not exist. We rely on volunteer agencies such as the Red Cross and the Salvation Army.
Our contact with OCIPEP on response and emergency preparedness issues is limited to JEPP applications and participation in emergency preparedness courses and fact sheets from their Web site. CSIS contact is through the London Police Services.
That concludes my presentation.
Mr. William Pasel, Emergency Measures Co-ordinator, Hamilton Emergency Services Department, City of Hamilton: Honourable senators, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, I am proud to come to you tonight from the City of Hamilton, hopefully to share some thoughts, some concerns, and identify some potential gaps in the City of Hamilton Emergency Preparedness Program, and also, hopefully, to offer some tangible solutions to your committee for the tasks that you have undertaken. The City of Hamilton has taken some unprecedented steps in our program, and we hope that we can assist others, but I will speak more on this later.
In order to understand where I am coming from, if you will, I would like to give a little bit of the city background of Hamilton. The City of Hamilton has over half a million people. It covers an area of 1,200 square kilometres. It is the ninth largest city in the country. It is one of the oldest cities in Ontario. It is a city of diverse communities that offers residents and businesses growth and opportunity. As you well know, it is famous for its industrial component, primarily but not limited to the steel industry. Other sectors are also emerging. Hamilton's port is the largest and most important port this side of the Great Lakes. Hamilton's international airport is a major hub for cargo in the country. Hamilton is also a centre for medical research at McMaster University.
I have been asked to share information with you regarding emergency responders' issues, potential gaps within our overall preparedness program and to identify relationships with other organizations. That is a very challenging task to be limited to one person's report. However, I feel I can address these issues because of my emergency experience.
I have served as an emergency responder with the City of Hamilton's fire department for 26 years. Following that, I had the privilege of serving as the City of Hamilton's Emergency Management Co-ordinator. Because of this, I find myself in the unique situation of, hopefully, being qualified to speak to both the side of the emergency responder and the city's perspectives on these issues. I hope that the uniqueness of my background can assist your committee with the work that you are doing and also help other municipalities, the Province of Ontario, and hopefully the nation as a whole.
As you will hear, in terms of emergency preparedness, the City of Hamilton is one of the most proactive, creative and has displayed one of the strongest teambuilding initiatives in our province. I will address that in detail later.
Prior to coming here, I solicited thoughts and concerns from members of Hamilton's police service as well as Hamilton's director of emergency services, who is the general manager covering both fire and emergency medical services. I also spoke with the Medical Officer of Health and members of our hospital sector. I have also included my input as Hamilton's Emergency Management Co-ordinator. With your indulgence, I should now like to share these perspectives.
Hamilton has a composite fire department, totalling 800 firefighters. It also has 200 personnel in emergency medical services. Our Fire Chief believes that the federal government should follow the lead of our American counterpart and provide a better grant program for local emergency services to acquire the necessary tools and training to deal with issues around weapons of mass destruction, mass casualties and mass decontamination.
We recognize and respect the current provincial and national initiatives: the CBRN response teams, the heavy urban search and rescue teams and the CBRN training. We believe that there should be aggressive stockpiles of equipment and resources to address these issues and the medical repercussions following these incidents. This is all based on ground-level support.
We currently have a hazardous materials team within our fire service. However, we are now being asked to partner and assist neighbouring communities. Who will backfill for us? It is nice for us to go down the road and help our neighbours, but when we leave Hamilton, who is looking after our needs?
What about multiple events in Hamilton and surrounding jurisdictions, like the anthrax calls following 9/11? We were besieged, as many communities were, with anthrax calls. We have the capacity to respond, but to one full-blown event at a time. We were receiving multiple calls. We had to be proactive and creative. We formed an integrated response. We coupled firefighters and police officers, depending upon the criteria of the response that came in. With that, we found that we could respond threefold. If we had a legitimate case or call, we ramped it up to the next level and it received a full response.
We feel that we are doing everything we can with the resources we have. We need the province and the federal government to provide the funding to be able to respond from the ground up, as we are forced to do. This goes beyond JEPP and other institutional funding. This should be specifically for emergency responders and should not be available as a discretionary grant, but fast-tracked for emergency responders. We are very late in having this resource available to our emergency responders and they will not be in the best possible position to succeed without this funding.
In talking about the Hamilton Police Service, we are describing a department that has a strength of 1,100. The Hamilton Police Service is satisfied that they have a competent system of acquiring and sharing intelligence. They feel that they have a cooperative, systematic approach that is working very effectively. The police service does feel strongly, however, that a strategic response from both provincial and federal agencies is missing. They feel these agencies must coordinate their roles in developing responses to emergency events. This strategy should produce an agreement on funding, structures and an inventory of expertise and equipment. These kinds of threats are well beyond the capability of municipalities acting in isolation at ground level.
We need to look at the United Kingdom and the IRA experiences, Israel and their experience over the years with terrorism but, most importantly, we need to look at the U.S. and the lessons learned from the World Trade Center and Oklahoma City. We should not be reinventing the wheel, but learning from others instead.
There is a need to consider a federal agency that responds to these tragedies. Hamilton's international airport currently has no police presence at all. This is a thriving, booming airport with departures increasing at a tremendous rate. Transport Canada needs to address this issue with the Hamilton Police Service. As well, Hamilton's port authority is one of the most important ports this side of the Great Lakes. We have marine units that are available, but the lack of a strong security system puts the port in a vulnerable situation.
The Medical Officer of Health reports that the importance of this department has elevated them to the rank of emergency responders, in their eyes. To this end, they feel that the adequacies of public health departments should be reconsidered in Canada. In general, public health agencies are staffed as a nine-to-five agency. Their mandate is to develop programs based on the mandatory core guidelines developed by provincial ministries of health. The fact is, though, that they must respond as if they were 24/7 agencies that are set up to do emergency work on a continuous basis. They are not, however, staffed like that. They have little, if any, surge capacity.
A typical example is the SARS outbreak. They are working around the clock and they do not have the resources. Toronto has asked Hamilton for help. We sent an associate medical officer of health to Toronto. We also freed up two public health inspectors. Hamilton is willing to help. We know there are vulnerabilities in other municipalities.
In summary, the issue is not equipment, rather, it is the disconnect between the expectation of being a first response agency while, in reality, being built like a nine-to-five agency.
In recent history in Hamilton, we have had water situations, including major leaks. In every one of those incidents, Public Health was one of the lead agencies. It is not necessarily the people with guns and hoses who will come to our rescue.
Another issue is the lack of pre-vaccinated emergency responders and public health officials to deal with the re- emergence of smallpox. This absence of vaccinated personnel would be a major problem, in terms of both avoiding panic among key personnel and holding the fort while others are vaccinated. It would take 10 days for that to happen. There is recognized reluctance to this initiative. However, the reasons for this reluctance should be addressed and remedied through compensation, education and strategic responses.
The last group that we talked about were hospitals. The ability of Canada's hospitals to respond to emergencies is critical to the nation's relative level of emergency preparedness. There is a real void in mass decontamination equipment, resources and procedures at all of Hamilton's hospitals. As previously mentioned, we do have some Hazmat response capability, but we would be exhausting our decontamination ability at the site and would not be capable of assisting at a hospital. If a contaminated person entered a hospital, they could take out the entire area. There needs to be a decontamination standard and funding available to facilitate meeting the standard, in order for every hospital to ramp up an external system of decontamination.
The last point I want to make concerns Hamilton's emergency preparedness proactive programs.
Prior to the amalgamation of 2001, the City of Hamilton had mutual assistance agreements with our immediate neighbours. When we amalgamated, those immediate neighbours became a part of Hamilton, so we had to stretch out. In May of 2001, we put into effect mutual agreements with geographic areas on the outside border of the new City of Hamilton. Then, 9/11 happened and we realized that there was no help coming. Mayor Wade gave permission for the City of Hamilton to extend an offer for mutual assistance from the U.S. border, including the region of Niagara, through the GTA, over and including the region of Durham. This potential partnering involved 7.5 million people. That is unprecedented. As well, Emergency Measures Ontario was trying to create the first joint emergency coordinating committee in the Golden Horseshoe. There were no takers.
However, Hamilton put its hand up and proactively created the first joint emergency coordinating committee in the Golden Horseshoe. It takes some nerve to cross the line and put your hand up. We did that. As my colleague Rudy has just mentioned, London received an emergency preparedness award. Hamilton was equal to that task as well. I applaud Rudy and the City of London, because I know what it takes to do that.
The last thing is a solution offered by the City of Hamilton to others. The City of Hamilton created what has been termed as the ``best emergency preparedness training video ever.'' This video was produced during our municipal emergency exercise. It shows every aspect of a municipal emergency preparedness program. We initially created this as a training tool for internal use, but because of its high quality and universal aspects, we feel it can be used as a quick fix and how-to tool for every community in the nation. Initiatives have been taken to partner with the province and the nation to support this video at all municipalities. We have been frustrated by the response to this creative resourceful tool.
I have provided a copy for each of the senators to peruse and, hopefully, endorse. In return, I would like to walk away from here feeling that a channel of communication has been created from the City of Hamilton to each of you senators, to your committee, in order to continue to grow and share.
The Chairman: We certainly appreciate your reaching out to us. Let us reach back in return. We thank you for the videos. I assume the clerk has them and we look forward to seeing them.
Senator Smith: I had some questions regarding money for the previous panel, that ever-present challenge. I might ask you some of the same questions.
To keep it simple, according to section 92(13) of the British North America Act, municipalities are totally the creatures of the province. That, of course, was re-passed, so to speak, when the Constitution was patriated in 1982.
For the federal government to get into this area, we look for certain benchmarks of commitment being a priority area for spending and some degree of cost sharing. For us to try to make the case for serious federal dollars going to an area that does not even fall within our jurisdiction is a pretty steep hill to climb and a pretty hard sell.
Mr. Fries, towards the end of your presentation, you mentioned that a request was made for an appropriate medical supply to at least provide first responders in the event of some serious attack of something or other, and the request was denied by council.
I then heard Mr. Pasel applauding London for certain initiatives it has taken. What initiatives did London commit to in finance post 9/11 that would fall into the category to which he referred?
Mr. Fries: Post 9/11, the Hazmat threat from, for example, anthrax and smallpox, was quite apparent. Dr. Pollet, Medical Officer of Health for London-Middlesex, formed a committee to deal with CBRN health and pandemic influenza planning. Part of the program was to have a stockpiling of drugs to combat the infection of anthrax and smallpox. Dr. Pollet presented that to city council, and that request was denied. For the reasons I stated, council felt that the responsibility was either a federal or a provincial responsibility.
Senator Smith: Do you know what the estimated cost of that was?
Mr. Fries: The initial cost was in the vicinity of $46,000. That would have provided a few hundred doses and we would have been able to treat first responders.
Senator Smith: Do you have the feeling that, if there were some sort of cost sharing, the City of London would participate, or would it say, ``Province, feds, it is all your baby''? What is the mood?
Mr. Fries: If I am correct, just recently, CBRN was not fundable through JEPP. I saw the documentation not too long ago where there was something like $2 million available for CBRN issues. Prior to that, I do not think there was cost-sharing funding between JEPP and communities. CBRN was not eligible.
Senator Smith: You may be correct. I do not know. I am not familiar with that program. The point I am trying to get at is, in terms of whatever it is that falls within the area of jurisdiction for municipalities, the provinces are happy to take federal money for anything. The more manna from heaven, for which they love to take credit, the better. However, they do not want it going directly to the recipients; they want to channel it.
When it comes to federal legislators figuring out where their precious and limited dollars go, it is a hard sell if the level of government that wants to receive it will not ante up to the table to take some piece of the action, not a disproportionate share, but some piece of the action.
Mr. Pasel, you have been listening to these musings. What are your thoughts on this challenge that you cannot ignore?
Mr. Pasel: There is a role of responsibility that affects all levels. Certainly, the ground level will be the responders. They will hold the fort. They must put themselves and their people in the best possible position to succeed.
Post 9/11, the City of Hamilton has come to the table and partnered with the federal government through JEPP for an enhanced CBRN plan. The City of Hamilton has anted up $78,000 for a new EOC, totally updated, state of the art, as you will see in the video.
Yes, it is a tough sell. It is a tough sell at the federal level. It is an even tougher sell at the municipal level.
Senator Smith: They are responsible.
Mr. Pasel: There are no dollars there. There have been cutbacks, slashes and downsizing, while, at the same time, their responsibilities are growing.
Since 9/11, there are no rules. Anything goes. We have to be prepared to face anything, and that is frightening. You try to do your best. An all-hazard approach is fine for tornados, hurricanes and snowstorms, but we are not talking about those any more. The bar has been raised to a scary height, and we are going at it very aggressively, but we cannot do it all. We have reliance on agencies as well. We are willing to put out, sacrifice and lead, but we are not the sovereign state of Hamilton either. We will do our best.
Senator Smith: I understand that. I appreciate the comment about the medical officer being sent to Toronto. I am sure that if the situation were in Hamilton, the quid pro quo would be there. We need not legislate that. That is just good sense and good manners.
Thank you Mr. Chairman. I hope you will ask the same question you asked the previous speakers about their awareness of the cases that may exist.
The Chairman: Perhaps you could talk to me about the model you would like to see. Should every city of a certain size have a full team? We are talking about southwestern Ontario now. Is it possible in southwestern Ontario to cover a number of municipalities, whether we are talking about Hamilton, Brantford, Kitchener or London, where you could have a centralized operation servicing the different communities? Could it be located in Camp Borden, for example, or a place that would be more centrally suited? Looking at all of southwestern Ontario, London is the geographic centre. You could cover Windsor, Sarnia and the Bruce Peninsula from there. Is that a rational approach from your perspective, gentlemen?
Mr. Fries, perhaps you would answer first.
Mr. Fries: I assume we are talking about CBRN, not just normal response. There are teams in Windsor, Toronto and Ottawa. Ottawa has a very good CBRN team. As a matter of fact, that was the first one.
We exchange ideas and talk back and forth. Those teams do exist. The response time from Ottawa is probably about eight hours; from Windsor, a minimum of four hours, and Toronto, probably the same. The idea is to have these teams respond to an event. That is good. That would work.
However, communities the size of London and perhaps Hamilton do think that they have an initial responsibility to deal with those situations with an immediate response, because that is what is required and expected. There would also have to be a provincial involvement. Probably the mayor would have to declare an emergency to involve the next level of government, going right up the line to the federal government.
The response time is the issue. How long does it take to have these teams come to London, for instance, to handle a situation?
Mr. Pasel: I am aware of three teams. I was speaking to a colleague in Toronto and I asked, in terms of a hazardous materials response, how many folks would be coming down the highway towards Hamilton. The answer that I received was 12. Hamilton has 12. Any assistance is appreciated, but whether it is adequate, I do not know. What could 12 more people do?
We have talked about our inadequacy to decontaminate. With the decontamination equipment that we do have presently, we would be hard pressed to do eight to 10 an hour, so what would 12 more people mean? Granted — and I will put myself out on a limb here — they may have more efficient and more sophisticated equipment, and that would be appreciated. Twelve people coming down in a couple of trucks would be better than nothing. Certainly, we want more and more.
I do not know if that is the answer. Perhaps the answer lies in our ability to train more people internally. As you know, everything is ruled by the dollar. Everyone is coming to you with their hands out, I am sure. I am trying to identify issues and realistic solutions. Twelve more people would be more than what we had, and that would be a plus.
The Chairman: Both of you have armouries. Is this a militia role, perhaps?
Mr. Fries: No, sir. The militia, particularly in the London area, consists of 31 brigades. There is a service battalion, an infantry battalion, an armoured regiment, a service battalion and a naval unit. Their abilities for CBRN response are probably limited. Most of the equipment is probably in CFB Borden.
The Chairman: I did not mean to suggest that they have the equipment. My point is that they have the armouries, and armouries tend to be underused facilities. The militia has been looking for a role for some time. Each regiment may have 90 or 120 people who are used to working at odd hours and doing difficult tasks that one does not normally associate with the normal tasks that people undertake. I ask my question in that context. In planning for the future, would you think about that?
Mr. Fries: I would say so, yes. The military do train for many years and have equipment to deal with these things, probably more so than fire departments.
It is not so much the chemical threat that concerns us; it is the biological, radiological and nuclear portion of the threat that is of concern. Currently, the military and militia are probably better equipped and more capable of handling biological, radiological and nuclear response than any fire department. Yes, I see that as being a response that the reserve units could make.
The Chairman: What can you say about the view in Hamilton?
Mr. Pasel: If the militia had the will to undertake this, and were funded and trained properly, it would be a godsend. We would appreciate anything. We are looking for players, teammates, partners, team-building, and identifying resources. If it is doable, yes, we would do it.
The Chairman: Mr. Fries, you mentioned earlier that you had both a CSIS and a military liaison.
Mr. Fries: We have military a liaison, yes.
The Chairman: Did I hear you correctly about CSIS?
Mr. Fries: We have a liaison with CSIS through the police department.
The Chairman: Speaking to both of you, when you are conducting an exercise, do you have a military liaison? Are they aware of what is going on? Do they understand the plans of your city and your methodology? For example, if the DART team were to arrive from Petawawa, Kingston and Trenton, would they be in a position to integrate smoothly with the operations you have?
Mr. Fries: I belong to the garrison committee, which is a committee of 50 members. Industry, the fire department, the Fire Chief, the police chief, the community leaders and I belong to that. The idea of that committee is to foster military knowledge and a relationship and cooperation with municipalities. We do have 31 Brigade, Colonel O'Brien. At the last exercise I crashed a C-130 Hercules on the university property and 31 Brigade was there to observe us. We use the military police to provide security, although you must keep in mind that, before we get DND involved, we must go through the provincial level.
The Chairman: With regard to Hamilton, do you have military liaison during your exercises and do your police have a relationship with CSIS?
Mr. Pasel: The police do have a relationship with CSIS. The police have a relationship with all governing bodies of police institutions.
We have left space available at our emergency operations centre for these ad hoc members, whether they be personnel from hospitals, the military or schools. These people can come in, and get ready to go with us. We involved the military in our Emergency Preparedness Day. They came with their equipment. We introduced them to the community, to their partners and emergency responders right across the board. The City of Hamilton is trying to build on this, and it is being done through inclusion.
The Chairman: If you had to come up with a priority wish list, what would be your first priorities, and what is the price tag that goes with them?
Mr. Fries: My first priority would be to have the resources, manpower and funds to start the framework for a community emergency management program, which is mandated now through Bill C-148.
I am the community Emergency Manager Co-ordinator for the City of London and nine municipalities in the county. The county population is about 66,000. These communities have limited resources. Some of them are very small. They were unaware of the requirements of this new program until recently. I go out to municipal councils in the evenings, because the people who fulfil those functions are part-time elected officials. The only full-time people are the clerks and support staff.
The Chairman: Do you go out as far as Strathroy?
Mr. Fries: Yes, there are nine municipalities in the county of Middlesex.
I give them a PowerPoint presentation on the program. They are amazed at how much time, effort and funds are required to initiate this new program for the essential level. There will be the enhanced level the next year and the comprehensive level the year after.
Mr. Pasel from the City of Hamilton probably faces the same challenge.
My wish list would include the resources and the ability to initiate this program by next year.
The Chairman: Help us with the first level. How many people will you need? What new equipment will you need? What will the price tag be? What will the capital costs be and what will it cost per year to run?
Mr. Fries: In the City of London, the tax base is larger than in the small county communities. All the municipalities had was an emergency response plan. I have written to every one of them and standardized that.
One community had an exercise last year that I wrote and administered. For six years, none of the communities conducted an exercise. All they had was a plan. Now they need a fully operational EOC centre. As Mr. Pasel said, the City of Hamilton spent $77,000. That would include a backup power generator, dedicated lines, hook-ups for audio- visual and computer hook-ups. That would cost about $40,000 or $50,000. You also need an alternate EOC, which is an added expense. They must designate an alternate community emergency management coordinator. That is usually the Fire Chief. Except for in the municipality of Strathroy, the fire chiefs in the county are part time and earn about $5,000 or $6,000 per year. Suddenly they will have to attend four-day training courses. Mr. Pasel and I just completed that course. They have to put an additional 10 to 15 hours per week into this program. They have to form committees of six or seven with representation from fire, police, EMS, community volunteers, school boards and land-use planners.
The Chairman: A couple of hours here, a couple of hour there, and pretty soon you are working full time.
Mr. Fries: Yes, sir.
The Chairman: How many people do you need in Middlesex to have a proper team?
Mr. Fries: Each community is required by the act to form its own team consisting of six, seven or eight people, depending on the size.
The Chairman: Are these people permanent or volunteers?
Mr. Fries: They could be volunteers or part-time employees of the community.
The Chairman: If my math is right, the cost of eight part-time people in each community would be around $100,000.
Mr. Fries: It would probably not be that much. The fire chief is already an employee of the community.
The Chairman: I meant in capital costs. Could you put together an emergency operations centre and a backup for $100,000?
Mr. Fries: I would say so, sir.
The Chairman: Then your annual budget would be $20,000 or $30,000?
Mr. Fries: Yes, to maintain the program.
The Chairman: Moving up to the enhanced level, what do you then have?
Mr. Fries: Currently, most communities in Ontario have all-generic emergency plans. At the enhanced level, the plans must be risk-specific. In other words, for each risk that you identify in the risk assessment and hazards analysis, you must write a new plan.
The Chairman: You say that you have an all-generic risk plan. In the West, we were told that all-generic risk plans do not work. For example, you said that two different railroads go through your city. We heard that Hamilton has a number of industries that are unique to the city, and obviously the geography of Hamilton is vastly different from the geography of London.
Can you describe to me why there are generic plans in Ontario when in the West we are told that you must have a unique plan for each community?
Mr. Fries: My understanding is that the generic plan in Ontario was a standard that everyone accepted prior to Bill 148 and the mandating of the emergency management program. It was fine; it was accepted. Every community had that. As a matter of fact, some communities did not even have a plan, so getting an all-generic plan was a good beginning. Of course, with the new developments of terrorism and chemical and biological threats, a risk-specific plan is the better way to go.
In the case of a train derailment, once the chemical was identified, the annex would take effect. The response notification remains the same, but how the emergency would be handled would differ from the handling of a tornado, for example, although that is obvious. There are different contacts, different responders and different procedures to follow. I believe that a risk-specific plan is definitely the way to go.
The Chairman: On the enhanced level, how much money are you talking about and how many people? How does it change in terms of costs? How does it differ from the essential level?
Mr. Fries: Once you have the essential plan, you will already have your approved plan, your EOC, and you will have formed your committee. To move up to the enhanced level you would need a designation arrangement for a local information centre. You would have the implementation of an annual community emergency management training program involving appropriate staff, volunteer organizations, ancillary staff and emergency services, an annual community emergency management exercise program — not just an exercise — and development and implementation of a community public education program based on identified risks. Public awareness is part of the essential plan. It raises the bar slightly.
Of course, the comprehensive program is the highest level and it must be maintained afterwards. It becomes a living document and it must be maintained by the community.
The Chairman: Mr. Pasel, what is on your wish list? What do you need and what will it cost?
Mr. Pasel: I would wish for a framework to be established, a bridging, if you will, for the federal government to open up a dialogue with and to partner with the emergency responders at the municipal level. By no means do I wish to discredit the province, but I am talking about quick help and quick resources. By dialogue, I am talking about a dialogue with each agency. There would be a sector for the police service, for the fire service and for public health on real issues.
The Chairman: Do you have an OCIPEP officer in your community?
Mr. Pasel: Do you mean an EMO officer?
The Chairman: Is there someone in your community who is with the Department of National Defence's Office of Critical Infrastructure and Emergency Preparedness to whom you can talk?
Mr. Pasel: Not that I know of.
The Chairman: Do they ever visit?
Mr. Pasel: No.
The Chairman: The message goes to the province and the province talks to you; is that how it happens?
Mr. Pasel: We have an area officer from Emergency Management Ontario, and I do see him. As to communication with someone from OCIPEP, I do not have visits from anyone from Arnprior or Ottawa.
The Chairman: Where do they come from?
Mr. Pasel: They come from Emergency Management Ontario in Toronto. We have an area representative
The Chairman: Is your area Hamilton and Brantford?
Mr. Pasel: We are called the Grand.
The Chairman: An apt name since it is a grand spot.
Mr. Pasel: The regions are named after the rivers. This regions includes the Niagara region, Hamilton, Halton and Peel. It is the same fellow.
The Chairman: Do you see that fellow once a week, once a month?
Mr. Pasel: He is not a stranger. He calls me. He is a friendly and cooperative fellow.
The Chairman: What does he provide you with?
Mr. Pasel: He is a liaison to Emergency Management Ontario.
The Chairman: What do they provide to you?
Mr. Pasel: They provide us with contacts to the federal government, to different ministries and phone numbers.
The Chairman: Does that speed things up? Does it expedite your job? Does it make your life easier?
Mr. Pasel: I suppose it saves me looking up telephone numbers. I am not saying this as a disservice; please do not misunderstand what I am saying.
The Chairman: We are trying to understand.
Mr. Pasel: You are putting the squeeze on me, here.
The Chairman: That is not my intention.
Mr. Pasel: They can put us in touch with other people. We cannot get provincial help or any kind of assistance without going through them. We cannot touch home without touching first base.
The Chairman: Mr. Fries looks look he wants to add something.
Mr. Fries: I agree with Mr. Pasel.
The Chairman: Does the representative help? Are things expedited? Does he speed things up or slow things down?
Mr. Fries: I believe he speeds things up. Our area includes 44 communities. I have daily contact with him through the cell phone. He is in Sarnia. They provide training, assistance, and extra work, especially with this new program.
The Chairman: Returning to Hamilton, you were working through your wish list and I interrupted you. I apologize.
Mr. Pasel: If we have the foundation and the framework to get this bridging between the municipality and the federal government, I believe that would fast track the process. That would also provide total input from ground level.
I believe there is a term, ``eliminating the middle man.'' Everyone's job is important; do not get me wrong. I am talking about getting immediate results. I am speaking now as if I were wearing a firefighter hat. I know what it is like at the scene. I know what death, destruction and heartache is about. You do not want a decision made in a week, a month or half a year; you want that decision in a New York minute.
I am suggesting that the agencies that I have identified — police, fire, EMS and public health — have a fast-track process. That is all. There should be a framework, a bridge or a process to get to the people who know what they want and get that to them quickly.
The Chairman: Your wish list is more of a system, rather than having a certain piece of equipment, a certain number of people, or a grant to buy something; is that correct? You want to have a process in place?
Mr. Pasel: Mr. Chairman, everything would grow from that. You would have an explicit idea of the wants, needs and remedies. Depending on to whom you are speaking and the situation, each situation would have a dollar value.
I cannot speak for other agencies, but the process is what we need first for immediate, instantaneous action.
The Chairman: We have talked about the importance of dealing with situations from the ground up. You folks are on the ground. Tell us how the system should work. You must tell us because, otherwise, the feds will come in and design it from the sky down. Tell us how the system should be designed from the ground up.
Mr. Pasel: Start with positive and accurate information. The two institutions must resolve this situation. One group would include representatives from the federal agency. They must talk about the situation and have criteria. There are some disciplines in place here. They must come within the criteria, and they must make their case. It sounds crude, but it would be a start.
The Chairman: By way of example, we have been watching the SARS development. We are looking at the province emergency coordinator, sitting there with the provincial medical officer of health. They seem to be running the show. They are talking to Ottawa about things like shutting down flights or getting better information from Immigration Canada about who is coming into the country. However, the day-to-day operations seem to be run from a central operation on Gerrard Street in Toronto. They seem to have a handle on the situation. They seem to be Toronto- centric. The province seems to be doing the job. Why do you want to hop over these guys to get to the feds?
Mr. Pasel: I am not talking about a wide-span problem. I totally applaud the efforts that the province is making, the efforts of Dr. Jim Young and the POC. They are doing a tremendous job. Colin D'Cuhna, is up to his eyeballs, but those guys are working and they are producing. That is not what I am talking about.
I am referring to emergency responders at ground zero, where there is devastation. These people are more or less in a silo. It is not a lateral situation in terms of other agencies. I am talking about an incident that would have devastating local consequences.
The Chairman: If this were not a public health issue, do you feel that you would get the same response if it had to do with other elements of a disaster? What we are talking about is entirely a health question in regard to SARS, but if you were looking at another situation, do you think that the province would provide the same coordination that Dr. Young and Dr. D'Cuhna are providing now?
Mr. Pasel: I would not want to judge that. That would be hard to do.
However, I would parallel this situation. About a year and a half ago in Hamilton we had an incident that involved ebola. As honourable senators will recall, that is one of the most deadly diseases on the planet. The City of Hamilton thought they had a real case. The matter stayed within Public Health, and Health Canada. You could check it out on CNN. That did not involve the police, the fire department or myself. The experts were there and they took it right to the top, and they did a tremendous job.
The Chairman: All I am testing or probing is why the link comes so quickly to the feds and why you do not have confidence that there is an intermediate level that could cope with regional problems. Your first answer was that you need a connection, municipal-federal, right off the bat and, yes, the provincial people are helpful with phone numbers and who to contact and who can help, but they do not have the resources to make things happen. Ontario is a big government with a significant amount of money, facilities and capability.
Mr. Pasel: We are talking about time. Time is critical. If you have to go three miles to get a job done, and you could go two miles and get the same job done, where would you go? I would go two miles. That is all I am saying. It would be a structure to fast track. If it is not doable, then that is the end of it. However, if it is doable, we should have a look.
The Chairman: I do not know what is doable, sir.
Mr. Pasel: Neither do I.
The Chairman: I am asking, for example, if you are looking for support, it seems there are a lot of provincial police agencies that can provide surge capacity throughout the province. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe they are stretched too thin, but it seems to me that the two miles is to Queen's Park rather than the three miles to Parliament Hill.
I am looking for the logic of going directly to the federal government rather than going to the provincial government, which in the case of Ontario has significant resources. It is not like P.E.I. where there is a small population and few resources by comparison.
Mr. Pasel: Let us take it back to the beginning. What I am talking about is not on a response, so to speak, it is the set up.
I have gone off the path somewhat here. My whole concept was to identify things. We are talking about mass decontamination ability. I am talking about getting things set up beforehand. Right now we have a JEPP. Things are needed and are identified as such by the emergency responders. If they made their case, and if a fund were created, then there would be a process whereby the emergency responders could discuss the situation with the federal government. That is what I am talking about. I got way off track on that. If they can talk and fast track, recognizing the areas that they are requesting funds for, that is the whole process that I was trying to explain.
The Chairman: I did not think you were off track, but you were describing a situation where the feds were not in touch. There was no one around from the Office of Critical Infrastructure and Emergency Preparedness. You were seeing someone from the province who was in touch with you daily by cell phone, and it sounded to me like, when we were talking at the federal level, we were imposing something that might be superfluous if you already had connections with someone at the provincial level who was providing coordination. My question was: Why is that not the level you are pursuing rather than the federal level where you do not appear to have any contacts or assistance other than the odd grant for the odd piece of equipment?
Mr. Pasel: For the JEPP grant, the funding comes from the feds through the province. If the province deems it is valid and within their criteria, they will forward those funds.
What purpose does that serve for the emergency responder? Why would they not just go to you? That is what I am saying.
The Chairman: I am hearing something different now. Am I hearing that there is a block or a filter at the provincial level that slows things down?
Mr. Pasel: If it meets the criteria, if it is a screen and is necessary, that is not for me to judge. I am at the end of the line waiting for something to come down, and I would not ask unless there is a need. That is all. In the interests of speed, why not go to the source? That is all I am saying.
Mr. Fries: I am quite happy with the chain of command reporting procedures through the province, and if we need federal aid it goes from the province to the federal government. I do not have a problem with that. There are a couple of incidents to which I can relate.
I would refer to the anthrax scares initially after September 11. The City of London used to have a protocol — police, fire and Dr. Pollett, our medical officer of health — and that protocol was in place before the provincial government had one in place. When their protocol finally came down, they were similar, so we dove-tailed them. We could have waited a few days but we happened to have one.
Last week, I spoke to the Fire Chief and the police chief, saying that I thought we should be proactive and talk about SARS. As a result, we convened the emergency operation control group. I called the mayor, the city manager and everyone else involved. We met at the police station. Dr. Pollett gave us a history of SARS, how it originated and how it is transmitted.
The big question was related to where we would all get our masks? We purchased every mask in the Canadian Tire stores. We even approached some industries in London that have dust masks, which is basically what they are. When items like that tie into Mr. Pasel's request there should be direction. We should make it known that we can have so many millions of masks in case they are needed. That is a tool for a first responder. In Toronto I understand that every paramedic on every response vehicle now carries that N95 dust mask.
The Chairman: There is a need for a fresh one for every new patient.
Mr. Fries: Yes. Tying into Mr. Pasel's suggestion, there should be a quick response for resources. I do not have a problem reporting through the provincial government. We have partners in response, and we hold an annual event in London where 56 responders put on displays, including DND, and fire departments from different communities. A representative of OCIPEP comes down every year, so we have that contact. That representative does not interfere with the provincial side of the equation in emergency preparedness.
Senator Forrestall: I wish to ask about the mobility of your decontamination equipment. Does it have a limited mobility, or is it a vehicle that you can move 50 miles?
Mr. Fries: We have Hazmat trailers.
Senator Forrestall: Representatives of the City of Calgary told us that they had sufficient funding to custom-design a vehicle and trailer. They have a couple of million dollars or more invested in this. The City of Regina has a school bus. Something is wrong. There is something wrong to the degree that you are talking about putting things in place so that you can act. I do not see anything wrong with this kind of pre-planning. I do not see anything wrong with the middle layer of the province putting these things in place, but nothing happens until the incident occurs and then you panic.
The direct path to the resource is the quickest way to resolve the situation.
I was quite surprised to hear the size of the community that you are now addressing, that is, 7.5 million people and you will eventually be servicing them to the degree that you can.
Do you have some transportation capacity? Could you cross into the United States if requested? Would the City of Hamilton allow you to do that?
Mr. Pasel: Mutual agreements have been discussed but they have not been entered into by all. Prior to these discussions there was nothing. The lawyers were involved in the discussions. The agreement spells out how Durham could ask Hamilton to help. It would be in order for us to refuse to help on the basis that we are busy as well. We may want to help, but we cannot. It is not mandatory. It is a bridge.
Senator Forrestall: There is no brick wall that says you cannot if you are free and you have the resources.
Mr. Pasel: Exactly. Meetings are held among this core group throughout the Golden Horseshoe that encompasses the 7.5 million people. We meet four times a year. We struck our own committee to talk about issues. We had a meeting as recently as last week.
Again, the 7.5 million sounds powerful. If everything were equal in a wonderful world, we would be there helping each other in a New York minute. However, the problem is that not everyone is available. There are logistics to consider. We need time to get from A to B.
Mayor Wade initiated this because there was no alternative at that point in terms of quick turnaround for any kind of Hazmat partnering. We did what we had been programmed to do. Being a proactive community, we will go with our neighbours. However, the stakes were raised and there were no rules.
Senator Forrestall: It is a pretty far stretch on my part to imagine that you would have a communications capacity in a region that size. Is it an aim or a goal? Is it an end you are seeking to achieve, that is, a capacity of a coordinated effort, namely, to talk to one another's police departments and fire departments?
Mr. Pasel: Interoperability is always a problem. Currently, we do not have that capacity in Hamilton. We can patch in and talk to neighbouring fire services and so on but, in terms of all agencies communicating on a common radio, no, we do not have that. I am not sure if London does.
Senator Forrestall: Do you have access to the public broadcast waves to tell people to get off the street?
Mr. Pasel: Yes.
Senator Forrestall: Have you ever tested that? Does that work fairly well?
Mr. Tait: In the public notification exercises, we use the media to broadcast that.
Senator Forrestall: Do you have any way of measuring how it is received?
Mr. Tait: Public notification is another issue and another problem. Again, it involves funds. Years ago, we looked at computers that arrest five or six dedicated phone lines and call 20,000 people in certain areas. There are systems out there where public officials can arrest a frequency and speak to the public. Some communities are now testing having a black box by the phone that will ring and tell people what is going on. There are many notification systems. In London, we use the media because we do not have anything else.
The Chairman: Can you commandeer the media? Do you have the capacity to go to a single station and end up on all the channels?
Mr. Fries: Not in London. Only if they are willing to broadcast what you tell them.
The Chairman: It is voluntary as opposed to compulsory. The same is true with radio. Would that be a good thing?
Mr. Fries: I think so.
The Chairman: We are told that Alberta has it. We are told that in Alberta you can go to a single studio and push a switch, and you interrupt all the Alberta stations and can talk to all of the people in the entire province, or in individual communities.
Senator Forrestall: Virtually all.
Mr. Fries: I would think it would be a good thing. There was an application by the CRTC two years ago. The Rogers system would have cost 13 cents per subscriber and we would have had a system like that. That was not authorized.
The Chairman: This is essentially a no-cost facility in Alberta.
Mr. Fries: I think it is a wonderful system.
The Chairman: Are you familiar with it?
Mr. Fries: Yes.
The Chairman: Why has someone not proposed it in Ontario?
Mr. Fries: We were waiting for a lead agency. Seriously, centralization is a wonderful thing. When I did all the plans for the county, I used the standard plan and standardized the county. When the mayor or reeve are called in, the warden has authority to clear numbers for an emergency. It would be wonderful if they all had the same plan. You need some standardization. It is a provincial responsibility, not a federal one, obviously. Why not standardize the notification system?
Senator Forrestall: There is no reason in the world why we should not do that.
Mr. Tait: Sorry, I should not be asking the questions.
Senator Forrestall: It is a lot better that you do that than say to one another, ``Make sure you put your cell phone in your back pocket. Have I got your correct number?'' That is no way to run an emergency response.
Could I ask about the federal caches of certain supplies? We have been told by Health Canada that there are about 1,500 or 1,600 of them strategically located in Canada. These, presumably, are accessible to groups such as your planning groups in the event of an emergency. Are you familiar with these?
Mr. Fries: Personally, no, sir.
Senator Forrestall: Have you ever seen one?
Mr. Fries: No, sir.
Senator Forrestall: Do you know where it is located in the London area?
Mr. Fries: If the medical officer knows, he did not pass it on to the emergency operation control group.
Senator Forrestall: Do you know about this program?
Mr. Pasel: I was under the impression that there is a stockpile near Woodstock. That is what I have heard.
Senator Forrestall: How far is Woodstock from Hamilton?
Mr. Pasel: About an hour.
Senator Forrestall: That is not bad. Do you mean an hour at five o'clock?
Mr. Pasel: I am not well versed in this. I will not go down this path.
Senator Forrestall: Have you ever seen one?
Mr. Pasel: No.
Senator Forrestall: Would the two of you undertake, as we have asked others to do, to have someone in your organization busy themselves and find out where these caches are, who has the authority to access them, under what conditions, and could you please have a look at one?
The Chairman: Is there anything useful in it?
Senator Forrestall: Yes. Is there anything useful in it? If there is, let us know, and if there is not, also let us know. Would you do that?
Mr. Pasel: Yes.
Mr. Fries: Yes.
Senator Forrestall: I appreciate that.
For some months now, to the sometimes torment of my colleagues, I have been suggesting that we have in our country one great capacity in our reserve forces and reserve units. To a degree, we have been hell-bent to shut them all down because they did not meet ``certain standards.'' Anything to save a buck. Had they been replacing the Sea King helicopters, I would have appreciated that, but they have not replaced anything, as far as I can see.
The Halifax Rifles desperately want to participate in some form of activity so that they can make a contribution in the traditions of that unit. Is there not some way that you, Mr. Fries and Mr. Pasel, could approach them and have conversations with them about that what they might be able to contribute? There may be augmentation units that are overstretched now in fulfilling that role. However, you might be able to approach a service corp and discuss with them whether there is some way to use this core of people. They are trained, disciplined and, strangely enough, a cut above the normal level of intelligence. They are capable of analyzing situations, determining plausible solutions, and applying them. It seems a shame, in the sense that we are not using them.
I want to ask another question about training. How far away do you have to send your people for specialized training, or do you bring the trainers to your people? Do you have to go away to some community college for 30 days, at a rate of $150 a day? I am thinking about the cost aspects of this. Is there a way of reducing those costs?
Mr. Pasel: The philosophy in the Hamilton Fire Services over the last few years has been, ``Train the Trainer.'' They would send one staff person and he would train others, multiplying the process by training internally.
Senator Forrestall: Is that working?
Mr. Pasel: It has for the last few years. They already had the resources on staff. They put them in a position where they were not robbing strength. I am no longer with the fire service, but it looks like it would be cost-effective to me.
Mr. Fries: London Fire Services also has a department where they train firefighters. They send specialists for training at the Edmonton fire school, I believe; however, they do have a training department where they train the basic firefighters.
Senator Forrestall: In Hamilton do you send people away on specialized training?
Mr. Pasel: We have a sophisticated training department in Hamilton. I am speaking of specialized folks, such as those who would deal with high-angle rescue and Hazmat. We also have ``train the trainer,'' but that is external. That person will then come back and train internally. We do not send recruits out anywhere. We train then all internally, and we always have.
Senator Forrestall: Thank you very much for your patience with us. It helps us to better understand some of the weaknesses that we see and the commonalities in those weaknesses.
Mr. Fries: Being asked why we have not approached the reserves, if they could fill some of those roles, brings up something that we did not think we would be allowed to do. It is not our prerogative, because we deal with the provincial government. Asking federal departments about their capabilities was beyond us. I personally think they could. They are quite capable. I have dealt with reserve units all my life. In the regular forces, they were attached to regular units and they performed wonderfully. They are well trained and motivated. They have all the qualifications that we would need. We did not ask them because we have this chain of command through the provincial government.
Senator Forrestall: I hate to do this, but would you send us four paragraphs saying that?
Mr. Fries: Certainly.
Senator Forrestall: Send it along to our clerk, so that we may consider it when we are writing our report.
The Chairman: Thank you, Senator Forrestall. Mr. Fries and Mr. Pasel, you have been very helpful to the committee. We appreciated your comments. It has been a learning experience for us. As you can see, we have covered less than a dozen communities. As we move along, we gather a better understanding of the challenges that face us and the distance we still have to go before we reach a satisfactory level of preparedness. To some extent, it is a bit of a moving target. As times change and appear to become more dangerous, these issues take on greater importance. We find that we want to put more thought into it and, perhaps, more resources as well.
I should like to thank you very much on behalf of the committee for coming here and for being so generous with both your time and advice. I want you to know that the committee is grateful for your assistance in this regard.
In addition to thanking our witnesses, I should like to say that, one week from now, this committee will have a full day of hearings as it begins its first update of its report on the defence of North America. We will be hearing from Mr. Gerry Frappier, Director General, Security and Emergency Preparedness and Chair of the Interdepartmental Marine Security Working Group of Transport Canada. We will also hear from Vice-Admiral Ronald Buck, Chief of Maritime Staff, Department of National Defence; Mr. Ken Hansen, Director of Federal Enforcement, Royal Canadian Mounted Police; Mr. Charles Gadula, Director General, Fleet Directorate, Maritime Services, Department of Fisheries and Oceans; Ms. Debra Normoyle, Director General, Enforcement Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration Canada; and, finally, Ms. Maureen Tracy, Director, Policy and Operations Division, CCRA.
If you have any questions or comments, please visit our Web site by going to www.sen-sec.ca. We post witness testimony, as well as confirmed hearing schedules. Otherwise, you may contact the Clerk of the Committee by calling 1-800-267-7362 for further information or assistance in contacting members of this committee.
The committee adjourned.