Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs
Issue 1 - Evidence, October 24, 2002
OTTAWA, Thursday, October 24, 2002
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs met this day at 11:00 a.m. to organize the activities of the committee.
[Translation]
Mr. François Michaud, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, I see that we have a quorum. As clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chairman.
[English]
I am now ready to receive a motion to that effect.
Senator Di Nino: I move that Senator Stollery be chair of the committee.
Mr. Michaud: If there are no other nominations, honourable senators, is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Michaud: I declare the motion carried. In accordance with rule 88, the Honourable Senator Stollery is elected chair of this committee. I invite the honourable senator to take the chair.
Senator Peter A. Stollery (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, colleagues. I appreciate it.
The first order of business is to open the floor to nominations for deputy chair.
Senator Andreychuk: Mr. Chairman, I move that Senator Di Nino be deputy chair of the committee.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: If it is acceptable to honourable senators, I propose that Senator Corbin be a member of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. Unfortunately, Senator Corbin is not here this morning. However, as we all know, he worked very hard during the last two sessions.
Senator Andreychuk: Senator Corbin is very loyal to this committee and he should be part of the steering committee. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for having consulted us on that.
Senator Bolduc: Is he a member of the committee?
Senator Andreychuk: At the moment, he is not listed as a member of the committee. Is that but a technicality?
The Chairman: That is a good point, Senator Andreychuk, I had not thought of that. We will defer this matter until our next meeting.
The next item is a motion to print the committee's proceedings.
Senator Austin: I so move, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Thank you, Senator Austin.
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next motion pertains to authorization to hold meetings and present evidence when a quorum is not present and that, pursuant to rule 89, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, et cetera.
Senator Di Nino: I so move, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next motion I seek concerns our financial report.
Senator Smith: I move:
That, pursuant to rule 104, the Chair be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee during the last session.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion No. 7 has to do with research staff.
Senator Phalen: I move that the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the committee and that the chair be authorized to seek authority, et cetera.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: On the motion to commit funds and certify accounts, do I have a mover?
Senator Andreychuk: I move:
That, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred on the Chair, the Deputy Chair and the Clerk of the Committee.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion No. 9 deals with travel.
Senator Bolduc: I move:
That the Committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion No. 10 has to do with designation of members travelling on committee business.
Senator Mahovlich: I so move, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion 11 has to do with travelling and living expenses of witnesses.
Senator Austin: I move that motion, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion No. 12 deals with electronic media coverage of public meetings.
Senator Di Nino: I so move, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: We move now to other business.
Senator Di Nino: In order that we do not get into any trouble, Senator Smith is not on the list.
Mr. Michaud: The list you have before you is not up to date. He is a member of the committee.
The Chairman: I have a few points before we adjourn. Senator Di Nino has volunteered to represent us at the Middle Powers Initiative that will take place next Tuesday.
Senator Austin: Could we have a little more information about that meeting?
The Chairman: Every year, Senator Roche organizes a meeting called, ``The Middle Powers Initiative.'' I believe this year it is chaired by the Right Honourable Kim Campbell. It is a joint meeting between our committee and the House of Commons committee. I recall attending it once, so I do not know if it is held in Ottawa every year. Senator Roche has spoken to me, but until the committees actually exist, it is difficult to make a commitment. Senator Di Nino was kind enough to say he would be here next week.
Senator Di Nino: I should add that I spoke with Senator Roche, who supplied me with some additional information. Perhaps we should ask the clerk to ask Senator Roche to send the same information to all members of the committee. Then those who are able to attend will be better prepared.
The Chairman: That will be done, Senator Di Nino.
The agenda item I wanted to bring to your attention is future business of the committee. I cannot be here next week, and there is nothing I can do about that. Hopefully, some of the travelling senators will be back the following week. Lots of people are absent this week and we have others coming in to help us out. We certainly appreciate that.
I would suggest, subject to anyone else's observations, that in two weeks we meet to decide on the future business of the committee. Is that reasonable? It gives us all a chance to talk beforehand.
Senator Austin: What date in November would that be?
The Chairman: We normally have meetings on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. I would remind everyone that we have had difficulties on one of those days. That is the only time we ever have had to cancel a meeting. We cannot meet when the Senate is sitting. I think that is a little crazy, but that is how it is done. Senator Austin, as the former chairman of the Rules Committee, can you tell us if the Senate will adjourn at 3:30 on Tuesdays?
Senator Austin: No, it adjourns at six o'clock on Tuesdays.
The Chairman: It adjourns at six o'clock on Tuesdays and at 3:30 on Wednesdays. Shall we aim for a week Tuesday?
Senator Austin: We could schedule it at five o'clock, provided the house is not sitting.
Senator Andreychuk: It says 4:30.
The Chairman: Senator Andreychuk, I am all for that, but we never know whether we will be able to meet or not. Later, dependent on everyone else's agenda, is better only because we do not know what is going on. Is that reasonable?
Senator Di Nino: There may be more certainty. One extra day does not make much difference. We can do it on Wednesday. The Senate usually rises on at 3:30 on Wednesdays.
The Chairman: Wednesday is a better day.
Senator Austin: That is fine.
The Chairman: We will meet on the Wednesday two weeks yesterday, when we will deal with future business.
Senator Di Nino: Shall we meet at 3:30, or when the Senate rises?
The Chairman: We shall meet when the Senate rises, because that is much more practical.
Is there any other business?
Senator Austin: I have one item. In the last session of Parliament, this committee requested that the Rules Committee submit a recommendation to change the name of the committee to add the rest of our jurisdiction, international trade, so that it would become the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade. The recommendation was made to the Senate. Of course, the report was never adopted. You will notice that the House committee has that name, that is, ``Foreign Affairs and International Trade,'' and our jurisdiction also relates to international trade. The jurisdiction of the Banking Committee relates to internal trade. A question is often raised about our involvement with international trade because it is not included in the title of our committee. I will just say this much now and ask colleagues to consider whether, next Wednesday, we should report a request for the change of our name to add ``and International Trade.''
The Chairman: I think that is a good idea. As we speak, the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce is dealing with an international tax bill. I did mention to the leadership that this committee deals with international tax bills. Upon checking the situation with the deputy clerk I was told that sometimes those bills are referred to the Banking Committee and sometimes they are referred to our committee. I am of the view that they should be referred to this committee because they relate to a treaty. I cannot understand why those bills are not referred here. It would strengthen our hand if the words, ``and International Trade'' were added to our title.
Perhaps Senator Andreychuk could tell us what country that bill relates to?
Senator Andreychuk: It was Uzbekistan, amongst others. However, we raised that issue and, if you recall, the Banking Committee maintained that these matters come within their jurisdiction. We did look at the bill. I raised this matter with the sponsor of the bill, but I was told that neither you nor your leadership thought it should be referred to this committee but that it should be referred to the Banking Committee.
The Chairman: That is interesting, because I personally spoke to the deputy leader.
Senator Andreychuk: You spoke to him after that. I intend to speak to this issue at some point again because I think there are foreign policy implications in terms of taxation. If two committees have to look at these bills, that is fine, but I think we should reclaim our jurisdiction.
Senator Austin: The matter should properly be discussed in the meantime in our respective caucuses.
Senator Bolduc: More than that, yesterday, in the Senate, our leader insisted on the international aspects of that tax bill.
Senator Di Nino: They are international treaties.
The Chairman: Yes. They should come to the Foreign Affairs Committee.
Senator Austin: Traditionally, the mandate of the Banking Committee has included trade and commerce, that is, the part that deals with internal commerce. That is how it reads in the mandate of our rules today.
Senator Di Nino: It would be interesting to see what the caucuses say, Senator Austin.
Senator Bolduc: There was a whole debate in the Senate about the trade minister. After C.D. Howe, there was a major decision after a debate on the trade ministry. The international aspect went to Foreign Affairs and the other one stayed.
Senator Austin: It was at one time called Industry, Trade and Commerce. The organization of the government tried to bring those two together, but it did not work. Therefore, we moved it to Foreign Affairs, and it works there because it is all about our commercial international relations.
Senator Andreychuk: We must resolve this.
Senator Bolduc: On some occasions, two committees might consider a bill. I am not against that.
The Chairman: It jumped right off the Order Paper at me when I read it so I immediately spoke to the leadership and said that I presumed that this bill would come to the Foreign Affairs Committee. At the outset, it was to be referred to this committee, but that situation changed. As you say, we must clear this matter up. It is clearly a matter for the Foreign Affairs Committee. We just dealt with one of those treaties. This committee has knows what questions should be asked about them.
Senator Bolduc: By the way, I do not want to expand the debate, but we will have the same problem with the new committee on Defence. Even in their own report they stated that we first need a foreign policy and then a security or defence policy. That is the same type of situation. We will have to watch that very closely; otherwise, everyone will eat a bit of the steak.
The Chairman: I agree. You are absolutely right. On the defence side — I am glad you reminded me — I have spoken to Minister Graham on the proposal of setting up a joint security and defence committee, or how it will be done. We are supposed to meet again on that, and, of course, I will keep members of the committee informed.
Senator Bolduc: He is well aware of the fact that he is introducing a new policy analysis.
Senator Austin: It is a new foreign affairs and defence study.
Senator Bolduc: Exactly; he knows that.
The Chairman: Thank you very much.
The committee adjourned.