Proceedings of the Standing Committee on
Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration
Issue 2 - Evidence for October 24, 2002
OTTAWA, Thursday, October 24, 2002
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration met this day at 9:03 a.m. to consider organizational, administrative and other matters.
[English]
Mr. Paul C. Bélisle, Clerk of the Senate: Honourable senators, pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chairman of this committee.
[Translation]
I am ready to receive motions to that effect. Honourable senators, this part of the meeting is public.
[English]
Could I have a motion for the election of the chair, please?
Senator Stratton: I nominate Senator Bacon.
Mr. Bélisle: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Stratton that the Honourable Senator Bacon occupy the chair of this committee. Are there any further nominations?
Motions for nominations are closed.
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Stratton that the Honourable Senator Bacon take the chair. Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Lise Bacon (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, I wish to thank Senator Stratton and all of the members of the committee for their confidence. I also wish to thank those people who have served before me on this committee. Some people have said that I have big shoes to fill, but my shoes are size 10. Do not worry, I think I will be able to do the job with all of you, because I cannot do it alone. We must all work together on this committee.
I am not here to make a speech. We will proceed with the election of deputy chair.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: I nominate honourable Senator Atkins as deputy chairman of this committee.
[English]
The Chairman: Any other nominations? All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Atkins: I thank Senator Robichaud for my nomination. I will try to serve with our new chair and I look forward to working with members of the committee.
[Translation]
The Chairman: I need a motion to have the committee's proceedings printed. It is suggested that 200 copies be printed for distribution to senators, members and officials. It is moved by the honourable Senator Gauthier that the committee print 200 copies of its proceedings.
[English]
Could I have a motion for the second report, please?
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: It is because of a regulation that requires that a report be submitted within a certain period of time. Is that not the case?
The Chairman: We are going to let the clerk answer that.
Mr. Bélisle: The objective is to see to it that each committee submit a report to the Senate on expenses incurred during the previous session. Incidental expenses amounted to $1,227 during the last session.
Senator Robichaud: I so move.
[English]
The Chairman: Could I have a motion for the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, please?
I feel that we need to have a steering committee to work on the agenda and procedures. It is usually composed of the chair, the deputy chair, and also another senator.
Senator Jaffer: I nominate Senator Gill.
The Chairman: Do you accept the nomination, Senator Gill?
Senator Gill: I do.
The Chairman: All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, honourable senators. The subcommittee would be authorized, subject to the approval of the full committee, to strike other subcommittees, as you know.
Could I have a motion for the representatives of the Joint Interparliamentary Council?
[Translation]
Senator Prud'homme: It would be ungracious of me to make recommendations if someone has been nominated, but I must say that this committee is very important. I do not know what was discussed previously as everything seems to be moving very quickly, but I would really hope that the chairman of the committee would be there because this committee oversees all of the associations, parliamentary exchanges, et cetera. I do not know what was decided.
[English]
I make an appeal to honourable senators to ensure that one of the representatives, and there is only one, would be the chair. That is all I would like to say, because of the importance of that committee.
The Chairman: As I said before, honourable senators, I usually work with the steering committee to prepare various agendas. I do not do the work of the committee alone. We have always done that with the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communication, and we will do it here. I think it is very important that members of the steering committee represent the standing committee. I am in your hands, honourable senators.
Senator Prud'homme: How many members are there on that subcommittee?
The Chairman: There are three members on that subcommittee.
[Translation]
Mr. Bélisle: From the Senate?
The Chairman: There have always been three.
Senator Robichaud: And the last time, was it the Committee on Agenda and Procedure which was involved?
Mr. Bélisle: If I may answer, there was chairman Kroft and Blair Armitage.
Senator Prud'homme: There were ups and downs at one point.
Senator Robichaud: If the chairman, Senator Atkins and Senator Gill were to concur, I would be quite happy to move that motion.
[English]
The Chairman: Is there another motion, or do you all agree on having the minutes of the steering committee represent the standing committee? Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: We have a member of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology with us.
Senator LeBreton, will you join us, please?
As many of you know, the Social Affairs Committee has already received $10,000 in emergency funds. The budget requested today is for $54,400. The amount of $10,000 is included in that. We will hear from the Honourable Senator LeBreton.
Senator Marjory LeBreton, Deputy Chair, Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology: Thank you, Madam Chair, and congratulations. It is nice to see you in the position of chair of this important committee.
I am pleased to appear before you today on behalf of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology to present our budget.
I was not in the chamber yesterday to hear the debate because we were working with our communications people, who are at the moment working pro bono to get ready for what we hope will be the launch of the health care study tomorrow.
All of you will agree that the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology has worked cohesively in a very open and non-partisan way. We will certainly do the Senate proud with the report that we are about to release.
As many honourable senators know, I have long felt, even when we were in government, that this is exactly the type of role the Senate should be playing, particularly when you look at expensive Royal Commissions and consider the expertise in the Senate. Our committee reflects that expertise with Drs. Morin and Keon, Senators Pépin, Robertson, Fairbairn and others, including the chair, Senator Kirby.
I am here to present the budget of the committee. At the moment, our most pressing need is the communications aspect of the budget. We have put in an amount of $20,000. For working meals we have an amount of $3,000. For professional and special services we are asking for $23,000.
On transportation and communications we have put in a $30,000 budget. As you may know, all of the members of the committee have been trying to respond to a host of speaking invitations from all across the country. Many of us did this in the last session of Parliament and over the summer. We are now facing many invitations for the fall.
Many of us try to fund some of this expense out of our own Senate office travel points. In any event, we have put in an amount of $30,000, and then of course an item for miscellaneous courier and publication expenses in the amount of $1,400, for a total of $54,400.
If there are any questions from honourable senators, I would be happy to comment.
The Chairman: I usually ask the deputy chair and the other member of the steering committee to lead off the questioning.
Senator Atkins: I have no questions.
Senator Gill: I agree with that. Eventually we may know what our total budget will be before we approve something. However, in this instance, I do not see any problems.
Senator Stratton: We were talking with Mr. Bélisle with respect to this. We had a finite budget, and we had a certain amount left in that budget. I would like to hear a summary of where we are with respect to that.
Mr. Bélisle: I believe I have a good summary in front of me, but I stand to be corrected by my director of finance. What was given for all committees of the Senate was $1.8 million as of April 1 of this year. Thus far only $574,000 has been spent.
On top of that $1.8 million, there was an additional $400,000 allocated for witnesses' expense. I believe only about $60,000 of that has been spent. There is a balance. If you subtract the $574,000 from the $1.8 million you have about $1.2 million remaining, plus the balance of the witnesses' expense account.
Senator Stratton: If I may, Madam Chair, is there a projection with respect to the individual budgets of the various committees to the end of the fiscal year?
Mr. Bélisle: If there is, and I will ask the director of committees to comment, it would be premature because most committees have not been struck.
Senator Stratton: If many of the committees were to continue in the work that they have already undertaken, and had submitted budgets for that, I would expect that many of them would carry on along that same line as we have discussed. What was the budget with respect to that? We did have a forecast.
Mr. Bélisle: Senator, if I look at all the submissions of all the committees —
Senator Stratton: That is my concern!
Mr. Bélisle: — we have $3.7 million in terms of submissions. What has been approved is $1.8 million thus far. However, the money has not been spent, and it lapsed at the end of this session of Parliament, so we start again at zero. Only $572,000 has been spent.
The Chairman: I will give the floor to Senator Gauthier after my questions. Do you have a particular consultant in mind for communications?
Senator LeBreton: Yes. We hired Alvin Cader and John Burke, two former journalists, one with the CBC and one with Global, who have their own company. We enlisted their services when we released Volume 5. I credit them with a lot of the good publicity we received. Even though we were up against world events in both the previous launches, we managed to receive op-ed pieces in the Globe and Mail. We were on many open-line shows. Again, this time, they have many things lined up. All of us will be attending multiple media events over the weekend, as well as on Friday and next week. They are the people we use. At the moment they are continuing to work with us, even though we have been unable to pay them.
The Chairman: Are they providing the same kind of services they provided prior to this last report?
Senator LeBreton: Yes. They are an independent communications company. I would strongly recommend them to other committees. Certainly the proof of the pudding has been in the eating, from our point of view. They have done and outstanding job.
The Chairman: One last question and then I will yield the floor to Senator Gauthier.
Would you elaborate on the conferences or public engagements scheduled to promote the report that you have already attended? You received some invitations, did you not?
Senator LeBreton: Yes. In addition to the direct media promotion we are doing, they have written an op-ed piece in the Globe and Mail that was signed by Senator Kirby and me. We are preparing these media items for their respective regions.
Concerning the invitations, I spoke to two large pharmaceutical organizations last spring; Senator Kirby has spoken to many health care provider organizations; and Dr. Keon is scheduled to speak next week, in Edmonton, to a group of cardiologists. He has, of course, expertise in that area that reaches beyond his participation on the committee. All of us are besieged by invitations from chambers of commerce and groups in smaller communities. There is a great deal of interest in the recommendations that we will make on primary health care. We have received numerous invitations from people concerned about how we will deal with the health care issue in rural and remote communities. Many individual invitations have been received from boards of trade and chambers of commerce. The kinds of invitations we are receiving pretty well cover the waterfront.
However, there simply are not enough committee members to attend all of these events so we will have to pick and choose in order to do the best job on behalf of the Senate to get the information out to the public.
The Chairman: Do you think that you will require the full amount of $30,000?
Senator LeBreton: Although most of us have used our own Senate travel budget, we included that figure in the event that some senators require it. The situation is fine for me because I live in Ottawa so I do not use my entire travel budget. Thus, I have been able to use my office budget for this purpose. However, some senators are required to travel back and forth, thereby using up their travel budget just getting here. It is a little more difficult for them.
[Translation]
Senator Gauthier: A budget was approved for this study on health care. If memory serves, we already approved an additional sum of $10,000 some time ago. Today, we are being asked for a further $50,000. Have these expenses already been incurred by the committee? In other words, do they have bills to pay and is that why they are asking for these funds this morning, or would the funds be for future expenditures?
Mr. Bélisle: Are we talking about the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology?
The Chairman: Yes.
Mr. Bélisle: I believe this is for to future expenditures. Is that correct?
[English]
You are not paying back.
Senator LeBreton: That is right.
[Translation]
Senator Gauthier: Could I have a breakdown of all of the expenses associated with that study that have been approved so far by the Board of Internal Economy, including the amount of $10,000 approved some time ago, as well as the sum of $50,000 being requested today? How much has this study of the health care system cost?
[English]
Senator LeBreton: It is not $10,000 extra — it is out of the budget.
The Chairman: It is included in the budget.
Senator LeBreton: This budget is obviously a direct result of some of the work we have done in the area of communications, in particular. This is for future work and not to cover items that we have already done.
[Translation]
Senator Gauthier: So this is for future expenses?
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Robichaud: I appreciate the information you are providing us concerning engagements and conferences to promote the report. However, it says in parentheses ``national and international.'' I understand that a vast amount of work was done, and that it needed to be done. The health sector is one of the major concerns of people in the regions. However, I do not think that the time has come yet for the ``international'' component. We should concentrate our efforts within the country. Why was the trip abroad included?
[English]
Senator LeBreton: I could put in a little pitch for the Senate committee. We have spent a great deal of time going across the country to hear witnesses. Our chair has just travelled across Canada to meet with almost all of the provincial authorities. Unlike another person who is conducting a health care study and travelling to Washington and Boston to deliver the prescription for the Canadian health care system, we have not done that. However, in terms of international travel we have had invitations from Washington to discuss certain issues. All of our international work has been done. We teleconferenced with many countries, and Senator Morin travelled to Sweden and London. The international travel is in response to invitations. It is included in the event that we decide that it is in our interest to promote this in Washington, in the Canadian context.
Senator Robichaud: I have some problems with that. I agree that the committee should travel across Canada because you have that job to do. It is important at this stage because the report will have an impact on health care and the confidence that the Canadian people have in the health care system. I do not see, at this stage, why we would travel outside the country to deal with this issue.
Senator LeBreton: That is fair comment, senator. I think the chair has had a couple of invitations to speak to international health care organizations in respect of pharmaceutical issues, in Washington. However, that is fair comment, and I am in the hands of the committee on that.
Senator Gauthier: I have a short question, Senator LeBreton. Yesterday in the house, Senator Murray raised the question of the second last paragraph of your motion that the committee be permitted, notwithstanding the usual practices, to deposit annual reports for the purpose of when the Senate is not sitting. The Speaker has not yet ruled on that matter, and I would think that we would hold on that until the Speaker rules as to whether you should table the report today or wait until tomorrow, when we are not sitting. I feel embarrassed to vote for something that is before the Speaker awaiting a ruling.
Senator LeBreton: Of course, the Speaker has to rule. It was in our terms of reference. I know that is sort of splitting hairs between a Thursday and a Friday. However, the presentation of the budget does not necessarily hinge on the Speaker's ruling. This is for the work of the committee, regardless of when they decide we can actually table the report.
Senator Gauthier: Do you not want authority to present further reports?
Senator LeBreton: No. I do not think we need another debate such as the one we had yesterday.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: We have before us the order of reference which has already been approved by the Senate. We do not have to question the president's decision, which is separate from the fact that the budget is before us.
[English]
Senator LeBreton: That is right.
[Translation]
Senator Gill: In fact, I am not against approving this request for funds. However, if we approve this committee's request for funds for international travel, other committees will soon submit similar requests. This will become a precedent, and for that reason, if we approve this request from the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, I would like us to be able to do the same for other committees who will probably be receiving invitations from abroad.
[English]
Senator Prud'homme: In the a name of that same consistency, in the past, we have not hesitated to look out for the reputation of the Senate. The report of the committee which studied euthanasia was recognized the world over as an essential document. Of course, some spending did take place. Requests for copies of that document came from all over, because that was the first time that some body had compiled such a document. Whether they agree on the findings or not is irrelevant.
As you know, Senator Nolin's committee on drugs has the same consistency. Countries all over the world, including New Zealand and Australia, have requested this report. That is because this is the first time someone has done compiled a document such as this. It is good publicity for the Senate of Canada. I am not saying we should be extravagant, but if at times something like this is requested, it is an honour that is bestowed on the entire institution.
Senator Robichaud is known to be very careful, having had to discuss this once in committee. He is very careful. I agree it is a dangerous precedent for some. However, that is not my experience.
[Translation]
Senator De Bané: According to my colleagues, senators Robichaud and Gill, if we say yes to the Standing Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, we will have to say yes to other committees. Personally, and with respect, I do not see anything to worry about here. We live in a global village, and if tomorrow we were to receive here in Ottawa a senator from another country who came to publicize a report he had just tabled, this would of course provide a certain visibility to the country and the institution he represented. If tomorrow we were to delegate to another country the chairman and the deputy chairman of the Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology to have them give conferences prepared by that country's Canadian embassy, this could only reflect favourably on our nation and our institution.
[English]
We spend millions of dollars to heighten the profile of our embassies abroad and our presence abroad. There is no doubt, in my opinion, that, if the chairman and the deputy chairman of a Senate committee go to one of those capitals and, with the assistance of our embassy there, organize conferences in the capital to publicize a report of one of our committees, that will heighten the prestige of the country and of the institution to which we belong.
I see nothing to fear if we, on a case-by-case basis, fund foreign travels for one or two members of a committee.
Senator Eyton: As a follow-up comment, I do not understand why there is a need for perfect consistency. I make the broader observation that, if we believed in consistency, we would simply have envelopes and not require this committee at all. We would carry on each year within the envelopes.
Precedents are useful and they are something one can consider. However, it seems to me that the work of this committee is to consider these matters intelligently and to make exceptions where required. Surely this committee, no matter what happened a year ago or three years ago or five years ago, should be in a position where it can decide ``yes'' or ``no.''
This particular committee is vital, and the work is being well done. It is a vital subject and of interest to all Canadians. It is good for the Senate, and the wider our story, the wider we publicize and make effective the work of the committee in the preparation of its report. It is in our best interests. I am strongly in favour.
The Chairman: I think there is a consensus, from my point of view here, that the amount of $54,400 be allowed to the committee. I understood that the full standing committee members would travel all over the place, especially internationally.
Senator LeBreton: Some do not like travelling that much.
The Chairman: I think this amount will be granted to your committee.
Senator LeBreton: Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you, colleagues, for your attention.
The Chairman: Senators, one of the important responsibilities of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration is to review the committee budgets and to make recommendations with respect to the allocation of funds. We have already received and accepted the budget for the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, and I think we can expect many more committees will proceed and get underway over the next few weeks and will come to us for approval of their budgets.
The process of reviewing committee budgets is very time-consuming, as you know. It requires an analysis of each budget and the opportunity to hear from each and every one of the committee chairs and the designates. I know the importance that senators place on committee work.
However, as I said, I often work with the members of the steering committee, and I would like to meet with those members to discuss this issue with them before making a recommendation to the committee on how to proceed to meet with the various committee chairs. I will report to you at the earliest opportunity, if you accept my recommendation. I know some committees will be set up this week and others next week, so there will be time before the next meeting of our committee for me to report to you after I meet with the members of the steering committee, if you all agree on that.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next item is the increase for senior executive groups, SEGs.
Mr. Bélisle: You may wish to continue in camera. Rule 92 provides for you to go in camera to deal with any matters relating to wages, salaries and other employee benefits. Additionally, since this deals with a salary increase for the directors, perhaps they should be asked to leave.
The Chairman: Thank you. We will continue in camera.
The committee continued in camera.