Proceedings of the Standing Committee on
Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration
Issue 4 - Evidence for May 15, 2003
OTTAWA, Thursday, May 15, 2003
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration met this day at 9:00 a.m. to consider administrative and other matters.
Senator Lise Bacon (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Good morning. I want to welcome you. Do any senators wish to add to ``other matters'' this morning?
Number one is the adoption of the minutes of proceedings of May 8. Are there any comments, senators?
Adopted, moved by Senator Robertson.
Number two is the 10th report of the subcommittee. Yes, Senator Gauthier?
[Translation]
Senator Gauthier: I have an interesting question for you. Construction is under way in front of the East Block. Could you possibly provide me with additional details about the nature of this work, when you have the time?
The Chairman: Yes, Senator Gauthier, we will give you an answer a little later under ``Other Business.''
[English]
The Chairman: We have the tenth report of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. The present suppliers of food services in the Victoria Building and the East Block have notified the Senate of their intention to terminate the present agreement as of July 1. The House of Commons has submitted a proposal, and you have the attachment to the tenth report to the Senate for the provision of food services in the Victoria Building and the East Block. Your subcommittee recommends the implementation of the agreement with the House of Commons.
Mr. Paul C. Bélisle, Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, we had entered into a contract with an independent, private supplier in September 2001 in which we had agreed to give them a management fee of $25,000.
Should this be public or in camera?
The Chairman: Let us deal with it in camera.
The committee continued in camera.
The committee continued in public.
The Chairman: Item No. 3, we have a pilot project on output of real-time text of chamber debates to the parliamentary television network. I would ask Ms. Bouchard and Mr. O'Brien to take part in this.
Ms. Hélène Bouchard, Manager, Information Management: We would like to extend the real-time service that we are providing to Senator Gauthier. We would like to extend that real-time transcript service to the OASIS channel. Currently, senators have access to the audio only of OASIS to listen to what is happening in the chamber. We would like to also have the transcript while the Senate is sitting. When you hear the audio you could also read what is happening.
There are three issues that we would like to mention because there has been a request to put TVs in the Reading Room in order to follow the debates. There is a TV in the Reading Room. It is possible that one senator may wish to use the TV for the real-time transcript while another senator wishes to watch the proceedings of the House of Commons. That might cause a conflict. Therefore, we may need to add another TV in the Reading Room. Aesthetically, it would be not pleasing to have so many monitors in the Reading Room to offer that service.
We would also like to add a TV in the galleries to provide the service for hearing-impaired visitors so they would be able to follow the Senate debates there.
We would like to have the approval of the committee to add a TV, if required, in the Reading Room for Senator Gauthier to follow the Senate debates. We would also like approval to install a TV in the galleries for hearing-impaired visitors to follow the Senate debates.
Mr. Bélisle: When Ms. Bouchard says she would add a TV to the Reading Room, it would actually be two TV sets, so that one would offer the French and the other would offer the English version. The TV currently there would be to watch the deliberations of the House of Commons.
Ms. Bouchard: Installing two additional TVs to offer both languages, French and English, is an option.
Mr. Gary O'Brien, Deputy Clerk and Principal Clerk: I want to tell honourable senators that the Senate is a leader in this field. This pilot project has been evolving through recent months with our reporters taking real-time transcription within the Senate chamber digitally, which does not require recopying or retyping.
We are very proud to have provided the service to Senator Gauthier, a person with a hearing disability. He has been very appreciative and supportive of this effort. He has been patient as the technology has evolved.
We are in a happy position now to be able to provide this real-time transcription on OASIS, as Ms. Bouchard said. Everyone could be watching it. As well, it could be available in the galleries for visitors to allow them to understand what is being said on the Senate floor.
As Mr. Bélisle said, this is a terrific initiative. We are a leader here among Canadian legislatures.
Mr. Bélisle: Senator Robertson and Senator Carstairs have also initiated an action plan for people with disabilities within the Senate. It is within that framework that this is being proposed to you. As Ms. Bouchard said, there would be monitors in the two galleries.
I believe that we need the approval of Heritage Canada to make sure that it fits architecturally.
I had a conversation with the president of the association for the hearing impaired, which is enthusiastic about a legislature in Canada offering this service.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: Have you given any thought to installing a screen at each station and in each gallery? For a variety of reasons, I would find it very useful to be able to follow the debate taking place.
Mr. Bélisle: You need two screens, one in French and one in English.
[English]
Ms. Bouchard: That is right. There would be four TVs on both sides.
Senator Austin: Plus two more in the Reading Room.
The Chairman: Two plus the additional one.
Senator Austin: Has anyone mentioned a budget?
Ms. Bouchard: There is no cost. We already have the TV, so we are able to utilize the existing equipment.
Mr. Bélisle: We have the wiring.
Ms. Bouchard: There is no additional cost.
[Translation]
Senator Gauthier: There is no need for us to have two televisions. On the computer screen, the French and English texts appear at the same time, on the same screen. One television would be sufficient.
The Chairman: We will come back to this item later.
[English]
Senator Stratton: If you had that privilege, of course, it would just roll right through the chamber. How could you prevent that? We are all equals in that chamber.
I have a concern about where these would be put. I believe that according to the tradition of the chamber, by definition, it is a ``reading room.'' Naturally, you do not want to have television screens everywhere. I would like to know where they would be placed, and it would have to be as discreetly as possible. It would be the same for the chamber, because the last thing you want to see in there is a television screen.
The Chairman: In respect of the chamber, this would have to be discussed with the people at Heritage Canada. We would have to determine the proper location for the Reading Room.
Ms. Bouchard: That is right. You cannot put the TV just anywhere because the cabling infrastructure must be in place. The only location for a TV right now is in the northwest corner. Currently, the TV is on the east side.
Senator Stratton: It would be the northwest, where the pages are located.
Ms. Bouchard: Yes, that would be the only place that we could put the TV.
Senator Stratton: How about placing it at the second door, which is never used?
Ms. Bouchard: We could investigate that idea.
Senator Stratton: I am appalled. It is a reading room, for reading and conversation. Now, with all due respect to Senator Gauthier, I do think this is required but we have to be careful or we could become the secondary elements to all the televisions.
The Chairman: We are well aware of that, Senator Stratton.
[Translation]
Senator Gauthier: First off, I am delighted that we are having this discussion. It confirms that the efforts devoted to this task over the past two or three years have not been in vain. I have received a tremendous amount of support from the administration and I would like to take this opportunity to express my appreciation publicly.
Secondly, this will make it possible to impart very important information, not only to me, but to everyone. Senators will be able to following the debate in both official languages on a single screen.
Ms. Bouchard: Unfortunately, we are not talking about a portable PC here, but about a television. With respect to televised proceedings, we have yet to find a way to split the screen in two.
Senator Gauthier: Is it possible to transfer a computer screen image to a regular television screen?
Ms. Bouchard: Two different television sets will be used for the French and English audiovisual feed.
Senator Gauthier: Senators will need to be notified of this. First, we should have a television in each committee meeting room to let us know what is happening at the House of Commons. When a committee sits in the Victoria Building, no one, not even the clerks, can tell us what is happening at the House, unless they inquire by phone. This way, we would know at all times what was transpiring, whether were are in the Senate, in our offices or in committee.
Senator Robichaud: Committees are not supposed to meet when the Senate is sitting.
Senator Gauthier: How often does it happen that we arrive at a Wednesday committee meeting scheduled for 3:30 p.m., only to be told by the clerks that the Senate has not yet adjourned. Sometimes, we sit around waiting until 4 p.m. or 4:15 p.m., without knowing where the Senate stands, as far as its agenda is concerned. This type of information would be very useful to us.
[English]
The Chairman: I think it should be one step at a time.
Senator Stratton: Are they not supposed to be there?
The Chairman: Yes, they are.
Senator Corbin: I simply want to make one comment, Senator Bacon. If we want to have TV screens in the galleries, they should not be too big and we should create a section for the hearing impaired. Otherwise, we would need large screens, which would be aesthetically disagreeable. We have to think about reserving special areas for these people. I am not opposed to the idea, as it is not a creeping effort to introduce televised debates into the Senate.
Senator Austin: I am pleased to see the committee interested in advancing our technology for service to our citizens. Just by way of a half-serious, half-teasing comment, in the Rules Committee in the last Parliament, we discussed the submission of the Speaker, who was asking for an unobtrusive screen at his dais so that he could receive messages from the clerk with respect to the proceedings in the chamber. I could never understand the objection to that. Could we request that that particular item be brought back to committee for discussion at a convenient time? I believe the Speaker and the clerk still have the same view on this. If we are pioneering in this area, there are one or two other areas that we could consider.
The Chairman: The Rules Committee should handle this.
Mr. Bélisle: It all depends. The Rules Committee has to look at this and assess the cost, and then the Internal Economy Committee would become involved.
The Chairman: It would come back to us.
Mr. Bélisle: It may be a joint responsibility of the two committees.
Senator Austin: It would be a joint responsibility, no matter where it is initiated. Both committees would have to sign off on it. We are dealing with electronic assistance, and so we should take a look at a submission from the Speaker, which was made in all seriousness.
Mr. Bélisle: The minutes will reflect a wish to have this subject reintroduced.
Senator Austin: It is my wish that it be discussed here.
The Chairman: It will be discussed here.
Senator Stratton: First among equals.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: I have to wonder why we are discussing television screens. Why not use computer screens to transmit the text of the proceedings in the reading room? That way, we would not need any televisions.
Besides, this service will be available to a fairly limited number of individuals. One screen, similar to the one Senate Gauthier has, showing the texts in both languages could be installed in the reading room and in the galleries. It would take up less space and cost less.
Ms. Bouchard: The idea behind using the OASIS system was to give Senator Gauthier expanded access to the service when he happened to be in his office or elsewhere on the Hill. The system could also be set up in the reading room. However, the text script size is much smaller and only one person at a time could view it.
Also, if a computer monitor is installed in the galleries, only one person at a time could use it and there again, the script size is quite small. The characters are quite small on a portable PC such as the one used by Senator Gauthier.
Senator Robichaud: I give up!
The Chairman: Do not despair just yet, Senator Robichaud. This is still an option we can consider for this reading room. As Senator Stratton mentioned, the reading room is not designed for television viewing. As far as the galleries go, we would need to arrange the screens in such a way that they are not visible to everyone and anyone. I think we can give the matter further consideration in light of this morning's highly enlightening discussions.
Senator Gauthier: Why not set up a portable PC in the reading room? It could simply be turned off when not in use.
The Chairman: We were just discussing that, Senator Gauthier.
Senator Gauthier: Fine then.
The Chairman: Is everyone agreed? We will look into setting up a portable PC in the reading room, rather than two television sets.
Senator Robichaud: Perhaps we should check with the whips to find out if this might lead to some quorum problems.
The Chairman: Senators could be in their offices, but not actually present at the meetings.
The committee continued in camera.