Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources
Issue 1 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Thursday, February 5, 2004
The Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources met this day at 9 a.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Ms. Josée Thérien, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, as clerk of the committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am ready to receive motions.
Senator Kenny: Honourable senators, I move that Senator Banks be elected chair. I should like to say a few words about Senator Banks. He is not a bad guy.
Senator Buchanan: I second the motion. I think he is a great guy because he knows people in Nova Scotia.
Ms. Thérien: It was moved by the Senator Kenny, seconded by Senator Buchanan, that Senator Banks be chair of this committee.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Tommy Banks (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: I saw Senator Spivak moments ago, and she said to me, "Only for this committee would I be up this early."
Senator Milne: If she is on the committee, we will elect her.
I move that Senator Spivak be deputy chair of this committee.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Senator Kenny: Could the record also note that we would like her to come on time in future?
The Chairman: I will so admonish her.
Senator Milne: I move item number 3.
The Chairman: Item number 3, with regard to the steering committee, is moved.
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried. Agenda item number 4 is next.
Senator Milne: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Next we have item number 5, which reads as follows:
That, pursuant to rule 89, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the Committee of the government and the opposition be present.
Senator Kenny: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Item number 6 reads as follows: that the committee adopt the draft first report prepared in accordance with rule 104.
Senator Kenny: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Agenda item number 7 relates to research staff. Does someone wish to move this item?
Senator Milne: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Does someone wish to move item number 8, which is the authority to commit funds and certify accounts?
Senator Buchanan: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Item number 9 is an important item; it relates to travel.
Senator Watt: I so move item number 9.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Agenda item number 10 is next, designation of members.
Senator Kenny: I so move, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Item number 11 relates to the travelling and living expenses of witness. Does someone wish to move this item?
Senator Buchanan: I move agenda item number 11, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Item number 12 covers the electronic media coverage of public meetings. Is there a mover for this item?
Senator Watt: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Item number 13 relates to a special study. I will read it, for the record:
That the Chair seek the following mandate from the Senate:
That the Standing Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources be authorized to examine and report on emerging issues related to its mandate:
(a) The current state and future direction of production, distribution, consumption, trade, security and sustainability of Canada's energy resources;
(b) Environmental challenges facing Canada including responses to global climate change, air pollution, biodiversity and ecological integrity;
(c) Sustainable development and management of renewable and non-renewable natural resources including water, minerals, soils, flora and fauna;
(d) Canada's international treaty obligations affecting energy, the environmental and natural resources and their influence on Canada's economic and social development; and
That the Committee report to the Senate from time to time, no later than February 28, 2005, and that the committee retain until March 31, 2005 all powers necessary to publicize its findings.
Senator Milne: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Item number 14 reads as follows:
That the following budget application for a special study be approved for submission to the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration if and when the Senate approves the order of reference.
That is referred to in item number 13. We cannot pass the budget —
Senator Kenny: We can pass it conditionally
The Chairman: What we have here is a two-part budget. The first part covers the expenditures for the remainder of this fiscal year, which includes getting the committee to Vancouver for the opening of the Globe 2004 conference, at which we are proposing to conduct hearings, not fact-finding.
Senator Buchanan: Sorry, is that where professional and other services ends up with $37,580? Is that what you are looking at?
The Chairman: Partly, yes, but the whole thing comes to $156,000. Part of it is those professional services. The conference that we are going to, at which we propose to hold hearings, spans the two fiscal years. There are two parts to this budget.
The deputy chair has just arrived.
Senator Spivak: I am so sorry. I was here at nine o'clock, but I got distracted.
The Chairman: Senator Spivak has been elected deputy chair.
The budget is in two parts because we are paying for us to get to Vancouver in the last two days of the current fiscal year, but then the rest of the expenditures for the time we are there, including part of the hotel costs and the other things that we were asking for — translation, stenography, et cetera — is in the small budget for the first week, in effect, of the new fiscal year. It will be our plan to draft a new budget to be presented in the new fiscal year for the rest of our continued operation. This small budget of $33,000 for the first part of the next fiscal year covers only the completion of work, which begins in this fiscal year. We have a two-part budget.
Senator Watt: What is this one here?
The Chairman: That is a report on what we did last time. That is last year's. That will be our report to Parliament on what we achieved and what we spent in the course of doing that.
With respect to the budget that looks like this, it is in two parts — one is $156,000; the other is $37,580 — and is contingent upon the approval of the order of reference.
If there are no questions, do we have a motion to approve this budget?
Senator Spivak: You are very expeditious, chair.
The Chairman: The clerk is very expeditious.
Senator Buchanan: There is no time.
The Chairman: We have to get at this immediately, if we are to do this. Incidentally, I have questions about whether we will be able to obtain spaces at the conference and get airplane tickets and hotel rooms.
Senator Spivak: About the spaces, I spoke to the chap because I did not know whether this would work out. I thought I would go on my own hook.
The Chairman: You do that a lot, we notice.
Senator Kenny: Senator Spivak, what is happening at the Four Seasons?
Senator Spivak: I believe it increased to $100.
The Chairman: At the Four Seasons?
Senator Spivak: It is true. I know it is available for the daytime activities, but it is extremely expensive. William McDonnough, an architect, will be there.
The Chairman: You have talked about him before.
Senator Spivak: You should not miss him. He has designed factories and buildings where everybody has sun and air, and the productivity has gone up by 20 per cent.
The Chairman: If there are no questions, I would entertain a motion that item number 14 moved.
Senator Kenny: I so move, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: I would remind honourable senators that item 14 is subject to the approval by the Senate of our order of reference.
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Senator Kenny: At some point, Mr. Chairman, do you plan to talk to the committee about the dates and organizational plans for the conference?
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Kenny: Thank you.
The Chairman: Item No. 15 is for informational purposes only. We will continue to meet on Tuesdays at 5 p.m. when the Senate rises and on Thursdays at 8:30. I moved today's meeting to nine o'clock for my convenience, because I had a prior meeting.
Senator Christensen: I had 9:30 on my calendar and I apologize. I had a nine o'clock meeting to attend.
The Chairman: The only notice said nice o'clock. In the flurry of the last couple of days —
Senator Christensen: My executive assistant is not here; I am by myself. However, my calendar still said 9:30.
The Chairman: I do not even bother looking at my calendar. I just follow Tom Smith around and ask, "Where do I go now?"
Before we go to other items, we will go to item number 16 on the organizational chart.
Senator Milne: We had better pass item 15 first.
The Chairman: Item 15 is for information purposes only; we do not have to pass it.
Senator Kenny: There is time on Mondays.
The Chairman: No, there is not. You have used up Mondays.
Senator Kenny: I was shoved into Mondays.
The Chairman: Item number 16 is "Other Matters." We have a request, because of how wonderfully we treated them last time and how productive they found it, to meet with another Russian delegation, but not the same folks. These people are mostly concerned with northern matters, Aboriginal matters and resource matters. They wish to come and meet with this committee.
Senator Watt: What is the group?
The Chairman: They are a delegation of Russia parliamentarians, senators.
Senator Milne: This is during the time when you are in Vancouver.
Ms. Thérien: It could be on March 29.
The Chairman: We could do that. Would you agree that, if we can make it work, we will meet with them? I think we will be travelling on the 30th.
Ms. Thérien: Yes; normally it would be.
Senator Spivak: The only day to meet with them is on Friday, April 2. Perhaps we will be back.
The Chairman: No.
We will still be at the conference in Vancouver, and I suspect we will be having hearings on April 2. We should count on that. It would be my view, with which I hope you would concur, that, having gone that distance, there will be things that we can do in Vancouver, either directly related to that conference or not. Perhaps it will relate to people like Mr. McDonnough, who have come to the conference and who might therefore be available to us on his last day. We should utilize the time that we have there because we are paying for hotels on that day, anyway. I intend to make that very full.
Senator Kenny: What hotel are you looking at, chair?
The Chairman: We have not decided. The most practical hotel —
Senator Christensen: What are the dates for Vancouver?
The Chairman: March 30 to April 2.
Senator Christensen: I might already be there; I am attending a FAS conference in Vancouver that last week in March. Hopefully, it will all flow.
Senator Kenny: The new Marriott is nice.
The Chairman: The most practical hotel would be —
Senator Kenny: The Fairmont right, across the street, is probably sold out by now.
The Chairman: Yes, probably. Where is the Marriott?
Senator Kenny: The Marriott is brand new.
There is also the Delta Spiral, right across the street from the Renaissance Hotel. It is a beautiful hotel.
Senator Spivak: Is that also close by?
Senator Kenny: It is a five-minute walk.
The Chairman: So is the Four Seasons.
Senator Buchanan: I am puzzled. I have on two occasions called a hotel to make a reservation, only to be told that they were fully booked, whereas my daughter, at the same time, was able to book a reservation over the Internet on hotels.com. Why is that?
Senator Buchanan: I suppose there are rooms set aside for on-line booking.
The Chairman: I used the Internet to book rooms in New York at a fraction of the cost I was quoted over the telephone. We will try to use that. We will see.
I direct your attention to the draft report that is in the papers before you.
Senator Kenny: When are the New York hearings, Mr. Chairman? You mentioned New York?
The Chairman: I will report on that in a moment.
Senator Milne did this yesterday, and I only mention it by odious comparison because you have shown us all up. Senator Milne presented a report yesterday that was more full than this in respect of not only reporting how much money was spent during the last prorogation but giving a more full explanation on what the committee did. I think we should take extra time to do some creative writing, too.
Senator Milne: It would entail listing the subject of the bills and of each report; that is all.
The Chairman: We can refer to certain bills, and then give details of how many people we met with, who they were, where we travelled to, if we did travel, et cetera. A little sales job, particularly when we are in the process of going for money, would be a good idea.
Senator Kenny: It should be thought of as a value-for-money statement, and it should be put up on our Web site, and, essentially, the message is: "Here is what you have."
Senator Milne: It is a permanent record in the annals of Canada of what this committee did last time around.
The Chairman: I think it would be a good idea to get whatever writers we can to make a little commercial here.
Senator Kenny: And post it.
Senator Milne: I would also suggest, at the top of page 2, that the committee members conducted fact-finding missions — not a fact-finding mission.
Senator Kenny: And worked hard and had difficult times to sit.
The Chairman: We are agreed with that.
I will defer the approval of this report, until we have the expanded report.
Senator Milne: I wish to serve notice that I cannot go to Vancouver. I will be in Australia.
Senator Kenny: With respect to the expanded report, we should not only be doing what Senator Milne suggested but drawing it to the attention of our communications people. As you know, from time to time senators have to defend this place. Our communications people should have available a list of what each committee has done, its witnesses, what it has accomplished, et cetera. The information could then be available for speeches, or for the media when, for the Jack Aubrys of the world. All committees should be doing that.
The Chairman: Good idea. I am glad that you reminded us because we need to be reminded always that we have a communications function.
With your permission, colleagues, I will suggest that the committee — not the steering committee — approve that redrafted report at our next meeting, whenever we find that it can be done with reasonable alacrity.
With respect to further business, I expect that none of the fast-track legislation is coming to us. We should be reasonably clear for the purposes of our study for the next little while.
Senator Milne: We need a motion to bring forward evidence from the last session and for permission to do this study.
The Chairman: It is a pro forma motion. It will go in at the same time as our request for approval of the order of reference.
Senator Kenny: A significant portion of our field of interest has shifted departments. Parks Canada has moved, once again.
The Chairman: To Minister Anderson.
Senator Kenny: They are back where they belong, as it were.
What I am putting on the table for consideration would be a session with him and the key people at Parks Canada. I should like a discussion about the lack of money to run the new parks and what they will do about it, now that they have the huge Environment Canada budget to make sure that the parks are well taken care of. I am pleased it is back in Environment. It is an opportune time to tell them that we think the parks are underfunded. We should tell them that we are fed up with them creating new parks if there is no money in the budget to take care of them, that we would like to know what their plan, and tell them that if they do not have a plan for us now we will call them back in six months and go through it again, et cetera.
The Chairman: Good idea. Was Parks Canada previously in some place other than Heritage?
Senator Kenny: Environment.
The Chairman: Shall we ask that the minister be asked, given that we now know our meeting dates, to come with his officials and meet with us at his first opportunity? Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: We will ask the minister to talk to us about parks in general, including funding, at his first opportunity on a regular meeting time.
Senator Spivak: In view of the publicity the one-tonne challenge received in the Speech from the Throne and the link with cities, are we giving some prominence to the testimony we heard from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities in terms of our report?
The Chairman: It is in the draft report, yes. I do not know if it has the emphasis that you are talking about.
Senator Spivak: This is a window of opportunity, perhaps.
Perhaps somebody has caught the attention of the plight of the cities and/or the one-tonne challenge and —
Senator Kenny: Philosophically, I am always in favour of shorter but more reports, and the more reports we get out, the more this committee will be noticed. Then it is a benchmark that you can come back to regularly.
There is nothing wrong with a 20-page report —
Senator Spivak: On this particular issue?
Senator Kenny: Yes.
Senator Spivak: I agree.
Senator Kenny: We can say it is ongoing, but it is an opportunity for press.
The Chairman: I would ask our research analyst to tell us the state of the draft reports.
Ms. Lynn Myers, Research Analyst, Science and Technology, Parliamentary Research Branch, Library of Parliament: While you were away, we met with the steering committee and did the best we could with the draft report, so there is one that has gone to translation and should be available for distribution by next week. It is only 25 to 30 pages in length, depending how you format it. It is not long. We tried to cover some catchy issues. It may not be as catchy as the committee would like, but we went as far as we thought we could.
For example, saying you have to get price signals right is a bold step, so we left a couple of recommendations. There is a report there for you to consider. If it comes anywhere close to what committee members want, it could be out relatively quickly. The English version is complete. It is at translation and will be back shortly. Once the committee has looked at it, we will need to come back. Perhaps you want to break it down.
Senator Milne: We need a motion for an order of reference back from the Senate to be able to continue with this. We can do it informally, but we cannot do it until we have the —
Senator Kenny: Does this order not cover that?
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Kenny: Let us revert to our order of reference, then; it should be broad enough to drive a truck through.
The Chairman: We can do anything under our order of reference except operate a bank or a railroad.
Ms. Myers: We did not mention banks or railroads, but we did mention money.
The Chairman: The point is that we cannot do anything until the order of reference is approved.
Senator Milne: Because we do not have the evidence before us.
The Chairman: We need an additional motion permitting us to bring evidence from the past session forward and into this report.
Senator Kenny: Unless I misunderstood Senator Milne, she said this order is not broad enough to accommodate a report.
Senator Milne: Normally, Senate permission is required to bring committee evidence from a previous session into this committee.
Senator Kenny: I understand that.
Senator Milne: We cannot do a report, Senator Kenny, on that evidence until we have the evidence before us.
Senator Kenny: Agreed. I understand that part absolutely. My question is this: Under item 13, is (a) through (d) a sufficient order of reference, in your judgment, to accommodate that?
Senator Milne: Yes, it is.
Senator Kenny: That is what I was worried about. I thought you wanted a new order of reference.
Senator Milne: No, no.
The Chairman: We need to get that evidence back here, which we have agreed we will do as a matter of course. We can do it today.
Senator Milne: I would suggest doing it as quickly as possible, so that next week we can start looking at this draft report.
The Chairman: Now, can we look at the draft report in any way legitimately prior to the completion of translation, on an informal basis?
Ms. Thérien: That can be arranged.
The Chairman: I would ask, therefore, that the report in the present form, draft-draft — "for our eyes only" — be got to us now, prior to translation. In the meantime, we can be doing some homework.
Senator Spivak: Could the evidence from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities be attached, so we can have another look at it as well?
The Chairman: Are you asking that it be attached to our reference, or to the report?
Senator Spivak: No, no. Perhaps no one else wants it.
The Chairman: In our homework materials?
Senator Spivak: Yes.
The Chairman: Okay.
Senator Kenny: I have a question for the members opposite: Do you know when orders of reference are coming forward? Are they coming forward with notice, or is leave being granted for them to be adopted the same day?
Senator Spivak, you are in the middle of all that scheming over there.
Senator Milne: We may have set a precedent by electing you as deputy chair.
Senator Spivak: Probably that is the case, but my understanding is that there is a gentleman's agreement to leave everything in place until after the election.
Senator Buchanan: I told them already that Senator Spivak was going to be the deputy chair.
The Chairman: In any case, she is. That is done. This draft report will be sent out to us now. Be sure to observe the confidential nature of it, because it is for homework purposes only.
The Chairman: If there is no further business, we will adjourn.
The committee adjourned.