Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 5 - Evidence - Meeting of February 23, 2005
OTTAWA, Wednesday, February 23, 2005
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples, to which was referred Bill C-20, to provide for real property taxation powers of first nations, to create a First Nations Tax Commission, First Nations Financial Management Board, First Nations Finance Authority and First Nations Statistical Institute and to make consequential amendments to other acts, met this day at 6:18 p.m. to give consideration to the bill.
Senator Nick G. Sibbeston (Chairman) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chairman: This meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples is dealing with Bill C-20, the First Nations fiscal and statistical management act. We have before us James Craven, former executive director of the Municipal Finance Authority of British Columbia. Welcome, Mr. Craven. You may proceed with your presentation.
Mr. James R. Craven, Former Executive Director, Municipal Finance Authority of British Columbia: Good evening, senators. Thank you for inviting me here tonight to share my views with you on Bill C-20. It is my opinion that this bill has the potential to change the financial landscape for First Nations of Canada forever.
The First Nations fiscal and statistical management act creates a finance authority that will allow qualified First Nations to pool credit and achieve better investment returns. To become a borrowing member, First Nations must meet tests of good financial management and transparent governance. The authority will then obtain a credit rating from a bond rating agency and issue bonds on the joint credit based on property tax revenues of the participating First Nations. Capital funds raised through the issues are then parcelled back to the participants to build much needed infrastructure — water, sewers, roads, thus adding value to undeveloped lands; and rising assessments, much needed development and prosperity will surely follow this ability to service the lands.
Value for money will improve greatly once long-term borrowing is a reality.
As an aside, I can tell you in talking to Deanna Hamilton that the Westbank First Nation financed a water system over a necessary three or four years rather than over a 20-year period. It is absolutely impossible to have a certain standard of infrastructure when you are confined to a financing period of that short a time.
For the first time, I believe, comprehensive plans which build for the future and not for the past can be financed over 20- and 25-year terms at low-cost borrowing rates. Because a water system lasts for close to 100 years and a sewer system for about 75 years, surely there is no need to finance them over a shorter period of time than 25 years. For the first time, First Nations in Canada will be able to service their lands in a comprehensive fashion rather than in a series of small projects undertaken as grants and finances permit. This will lead to superior economies of scale and better value for money spent, and better long-term land-use will be the inevitable result.
Bill C-20 is the result of the efforts of many people in the Aboriginal community working out solutions together. In the early 1990s, leadership came from Deanna Hamilton and Tim Raybould of Westbank First Nations. This was not a borrowing agency; it was an investment agency. It was created in partnership with the municipal finance authority of British Columbia. There has been support from 1992 till this day from the chairs of that finance authority, Dan Cumming, the late Len Traboulay, and Frank Leonard. I played a role in working out the original concept, and training as well as creating the investment pool for First Nations while I was executive director. I can tell you the present executive director, Steve Berna, is continuing this tradition. We are proud of this joint project.
In the early days, we were assisted by clever bankers and credit rating agency personnel from Wall Street to Bay Street, as a result of our visits there; and, as support for the idea came from more voices, by the turn of the century many Aboriginal people had taken complete ownership of the concept, assisted by a number of intelligent and patient people in Parliament and the federal civil service. Over the last few years, the move from the concept to legislation has left me far behind,; the development of this legislation has come about through the ongoing efforts of others, who have taken the idea and, through countless hours of effort, are responsible for what you have before you. By this time, the original group had been joined by such people as Harold Calla, Manny Jules, Chief Crowfoot, and many others, who pushed this work through to its conclusion. They are the ones who put the meat on the bones and worked out the problems and obtained the agreement of First Nation communities.
Essentially, what has been created here is not just a finance authority; it also plays a role in the province of British Columbia as an inspector of municipalities and as a setter of financial standards. That has all been created in this legislation. It is much more complicated than I had originally envisaged. Although I still consult to FNFA from time to time, I must state that my role has been minimal by comparison to that of these other people over the last two years.
I also would like to pay homage to my two old cronies, Ken MacLeod and John Taylor, both former deputy ministers who had a part to play in these outworkings.
I think this bill will improve relationships and partnerships between First Nations and local governments by providing an effective mechanism for First Nations to access the domestic and the international bond markets with ease, economy and efficiency. It is fundamental that the bill recognizes and clearly sets out the jurisdictions of First Nations over property taxation and financial management.
This bill demonstrates to financial markets that the power to make financial decisions rests with First Nations communities rather than with Ottawa. The new institutions are not a substitute for Ottawa's past role as a decision maker, but rather the institutions will provide technical advice to First Nations, will build capacity, and will provide the appropriate regulatory support to safeguard the system. The system established through Bill C-20 has the added advantage of being based on an actual living-and-breathing model that works, the Municipal Finance Authority of British Columbia.
As earlier mentioned, we have been around for 35 years. In 1971, we began to finance water, sewer and other capital needs of cities and regions in B.C. Our credit rating has increased from a single ``A'' to a triple ``A,'' and we have likewise changed the financial landscape for municipalities. I remember when, as an accountant, it was impossible to sell bonds for a municipality in the late 1960s. I can recall that many children were catching hepatitis, but you could not get money to build a sewer system, but then the same kind of breakthrough occurred when we had the finance authority and we could build on each other's strengths.
Right now, there are only six triple ``A''-rated cities in Canada, and yet the authority, the BCMFA umbrella, provides a triple ``A'' to more than 200 municipalities in British Columbia. That shows the value of a partnership. Through the authority's pooling umbrella, all cities and regions do their transactions together, and a tiny village of 500 people, like Telkwa or Pouce Coupe in northern B.C., will receive a lending rate actually lower than that of cities the size of Toronto because of that joint strength. Because of that umbrella and the economies of scale it provides, large government reserves and accumulated surpluses in local governments in B.C. are now one-and-a-half times larger than what they owe to the bank.
The bill also creates a portal to allow First Nations to maximize all other financial services. A simple way to put it is that it is the big-box approach to financial services. We have used this at BCMFA. We do public-private partnerships. We have a minimal staff of five people. We make money with financial products like investments for our municipalities, and the banks love it because we, in effect, rationalize the province. They do not have to visit 200 municipalities; they just visit us. We get very good pricing.
I served that authority for 18 years, from 1984 to 2001, and I have watched it grow. I have observed that cooperation works and does not necessarily stand in the way of individuality. A diversified portfolio of lenders such as we have in B.C. is safer than any other. If the North is in good shape in oil and gas, it tends to counterbalance softwood lumber problems on the coast. There is nothing wrong with getting a large number of people to borrow together.
The municipalities in British Columbia are not perfect and do not always agree, but when B.C. mayors and councillors gather around the board table of the authority to borrow half a billion dollars over a ten-year period, they put their differences aside.
Just for the interest of the committee, I checked today to see what rate we could use to launch an issue. A ten-year fixed-term issue today would be set at 4.75 per cent. That is a triple ``A'' credit rate. If you look at a single ``A'' credit rate, the FNFA have been told by the bond rating agencies that it would be only one tenth of a per cent higher than that. We are talking about really important matters here when you are multiplying that by millions and millions of dollars over 20 years.
We have had a lot of harmony in this project and in our relationships with First Nation communities from coast to coast, and we have evidence of working together. Since the mid-1990s, the BCMFA has offered their investment pool to First Nations across Canada, and 45 of them have been investing their money with us. This process was the forerunner of the outworking of this bill and will still be operative until this bill is finally passed.
The FNFA investment pool was formed through a partnership with Phillips, Hager & North. To give you another example, talking about portal and big-box thinking, if you had Phillips, Hager & North looking after your RRSP for $500,000, they would charge you 100 basis points, which is 1 per cent. If you had them looking after your whole portfolio, it would cost you one-twentieth of one per cent; so there is an enormous difference, and it reflects on what the municipalities net out of the earnings.
This joint venture between FNFA and the authority since 1995 has merged the moneys of both and we have had good liquidity and good earnings. We now have a combined size of $1.5 billion that we look after, which the banks used to look after. The banks still provide good service. They are very competitive, but they also sometimes get beaten out by the fact that, when we work together, we have very good rate structure. We have also consulted for a number of provinces regarding municipal financing; we have built investment pools in Ontario and Manitoba, and we have addressed local government groups around the world, in Indonesia, South Korea, and Brazil and three times in Washington D.C. at the World Bank.
The time with you tonight is short, and if I am to act as a resource to you in the best way possible, I should leave ample time for questions and not go on at any more length. It occurred to me that, if I were in your shoes, I might have some interesting questions on this very topic. I will be happy to answer any of those, and any more that you come up with.
You might be interested in who would buy these bonds, what credit rating they might carry, what their interest rate might be, how the concept might expand and be of assistance to more than a small number of large bands, what other services and financial products might be available, and how much individuality a partner could expect in the borrowing. I am prepared to answer any questions, and I very much appreciate being asked here to talk to something that has been part of my life since 1992.
Senator Stratton: Welcome. That was quite a presentation, although I think it is a little presumptuous of you to assume that we all have $500,000 in RRSPs.
Mr. Craven: I know I do not.
Senator Stratton: I find it intriguing because, when I consider what you are describing and take a good look at Bill C-20, I have to wonder why was this not done years ago. That is the tragedy of all of this. When you see the opportunity today for the First Nations and the opportunities for their future, it is quite incredible. You cannot be anything but enthusiastic about this, and the only question I have is how we roll this out across the country.
Mr. Craven: Responding to that question, I know that across Canada municipalities do not do it. Instead of paying one fee to the credit rating agency to cover a whole province for $50,000 dollars a year, the municipalities might spend that much in 17 different cities. They might all go individually to Wall Street and Bay Street to get their credit rated. They might all pay a lawyer individually to do a small issue, and it costs each of them the same amount of money. In other words, doing it our way is not just cutting it by half, it is like cutting the cost by 20 or 30 times, and that really impacts on the net borrowing rate.
Senator Stratton: I can appreciate that. I know that Winnipeg, my home town, does exactly as you have suggested. If this model starts to work, how do you ensure that it continues to work well in the future? It would appear that it is going to work very well, but do we know? My feeling is that now it is okay, and that is really exciting, but also the future is tremendously exciting if we can expand and roll this out.
Mr. Craven: I have been sounding like a broken record since I started in 1984, because I could not understand it any more than you could. I think a lot of it is a matter turf. I think a lot of it is the attitude: ``I would rather do it myself,'' and I think people at the political level need to realize that and have some stern talks with their folks.
Senator Watt: Maybe I could have a crack at it. Has the municipal financial authority of British Columbia been involved in designing the legislation?
Mr. Craven: We have had conversations on a regular basis from the very beginning. Many of the terms that are used, like ``debt reserve fund,'' and many of the other niceties of the credit arrangements have been based on the model of the Triple ``A'' municipal finance authority. In addition, the board of directors funded out of our budget the moneys to take the show on the road, and we took the fledgling idea of the ``First Nations finance authority'' to Moody's and Standard and Poor's and the Canadian bond rating service on two or three occasions in the late 1990s. We picked up a lot of information from that.
An analysis of the concept of the FNFA was done by Larry Blaine of RBC Dominion Securities. He was a banker and was the lead manager in our financial syndicate. He did an analysis of it informally and then later, I believe, the federal government paid him to do an analysis for them formally. The credit rating agencies are well aware of this concept.
Since I retired I have been consulting to the municipal finance authority; I have also been keeping in touch with the credit rating agencies because they are interested in this and wonder when it is going to happen. We were all disappointed that it did not happen a year ago, not the least the people who were in Ottawa for 24 days at a time. Although that did not happen to me, I have had a really close relationship with this, and as a matter of fact I have known just about everyone associated with it for many years.
Senator Watt: Are you planning to have an ongoing role, if the authority is planning to have an ongoing role?
Mr. Craven: I presently am retained by FNFA as an advisor. My great delight is to be a paid or unpaid advisor to FNFA until I turn up my boots. I was a somewhat unpaid advisor from 1992 until I retired; I think I got some hamburgers out of it, but that is about the most I got out of it.
Senator Watt: To your knowledge, do you see any shortcomings in this piece of legislation that the First Nations should know about?
Mr. Craven: No. In fact it has gone further than I anticipated. I had a concept in my mind, but I did not know how it would work without the involvement of some ministry of municipal affairs. Of course, there is no such ministry for the whole of Canada. However, through the various institutions, these people have fashioned those things out of legislation, and I think it is air tight. I am thrilled.
Senator Stratton: There is provision for a review in seven years, so it is not as though this is a one-shot deal; although you may say it is perfect now, there is an opportunity for review.
Mr. Craven: There are bound to be things to learn in the next three years. There are bound to be times when we have a 3:00-a.m. wakeup call and wonder why we had not thought of the idea before.
Senator Watt: Can it be reviewed before seven years, if need be?
Mr. Craven: I imagine any good manager would review it every day, because this will require you to be right on top of it. Let me give you an example. In 1982, $40 million was borrowed through the Municipal Finance Authority to build the coal-mining town of Tumbler Ridge in Northern British Columbia. It became quite apparent early on that the town was going to be a ghost town, because it was built on the basis of a world price of coal that was not valid. It is interesting what you can do when you get statistics and reliable information. We went in immediately and found that the coal was going to be there for another 15 years, so that would not be a problem, but by 1985 or 1986 we telling them, ``We are worried about this. The province has put us in a terrible position.'' The $40 million was financed at 17 per cent for four years; we then rolled it over at 12 per cent, then rolled it over at 7 per cent, and again at 5 per cent. We got Tumbler Ridge talked into paying double payments on their debt, and the day the mine did close, they were debt free.
That is the kind of thing you can do with this instrument. It is not just a matter of borrowing money; it is having a scope that is reliable on the financial affairs of all the partners. Before they run into trouble, you can do something about it. I think it is very healthy and it encourages transparency, democracy and people running for the right reason.
The Chairman: You stated that there is not a nation-wide municipal authority. It is broken down into municipalities. Recognizing how the federal government has planned all of this process, do you consider that it will work nationally?
Mr. Craven: Yes.
The Chairman: Do you believe that Aboriginal people on the East Coast, or in the East, will be attracted to work with the scheme that is being proposed in the bill?
Mr. Craven: I think that financing millions of dollars at 4.75 per cent fixed for ten years would even attract someone from as far away as Yugoslavia. The other really good part about this is that it is owned and operated by the participants.
I cannot think of a better way to screen people who wish to borrow money than to have the screening done by the people who would have to help pick up the tab if there was a default. That is an extremely powerful credit mechanism, and it has worked very well for us. The fact that we are our own guarantee is compelling, and it also attracts people because they no longer feel there is some kind of hierarchical process that needs to be gone through.
It will also help financial situations, because there will be a degree of certification with reliable data, reliability audits, reliable financial practices. I believe everyone, when they understand the simplicity of the idea, will join wherever they are. I would not be surprised if there were further derivatives of this idea. What we really need to do now, though, is about four or five good bond issues at competitive prices; we need to narrow the spread down to the point where we are right on the heels of the City of London, which has a single ``A'' rating credit in Ontario, and demonstrate to the world what can be done.
We should look at this idea with the Europeans. I have many friends in the European investment banking business and I have taken them sea kayaking for weeks at a time on the West Coast. They are very excited about the First Aboriginal Credit and there is great demand out of places like Germany, the Netherlands and France for ethical investments that are sound, and that is something that adds to the greater community. You will see a lot of activity once we do a few issues. The pioneers have to prove it out.
Senator Léger: We are pleading for Bill C-20 presently; that is why you are here; but you are all doing it already. Is that right?
Mr. Craven: We are demonstrating that it can be done in British Columbia, but if we were not extremely patient men and women we would not be in this business to start with.
Senator Léger: You are living it already and we have to find what is wrong in it. They have a hard time to say what is wrong.
The Chairman: I have a question to do with whether all the bodies that have been created are really all necessary. What is there in B.C. in your experience that is analogous to each of these bodies: the financial tax commission, the financial management board and then of course the financial authority? When you look at the legislation, particularly the tax commission and the management boards, they are really creations of the federal government as Governor in Council appointments. These are high level appointments. You give the impression that these are important functional bodies; in reality what is there in B.C., in your opinion, that made the federal government believe you had to go to this extent in order to have a regime that is successful?
Mr. Craven: I must admit that it was partly our advice that any credit that you expect an investment banker to sell to his clients has to have certain characteristics. There were a great number of unknowns related to the quality of the eligibility of a person to borrow money in different First Nations. This legislation standardizes things and makes it clear to an investment banker and his customers, and to the credit rating agencies, that there are certain controls here and that everything that everyone threw up in the air as being a problem about First Nations' credit has been dealt with. The good news is that it is not being imposed by a hierarchical third or fourth level of government; it is a creation of the people who are doing the borrowing.
That is far healthier. That is why the municipal finance authority worked so well; it is completely disconnected from the province. We have not one provincial member on our board. We make our own decisions, we go to market when we want to, and we decide whether we are going to use swaps or derivatives when we want to. If we want to go to Europe, we do that too, and we live or die by the sword.
That particular attention to detail, when it is your responsibility and not that of the federal or provincial government, sharpens the wits. We used to have a levy to pay for our operation which we sent out on a tax notice. We are completely off the tax notice now; instead we have a $600,000 dividend. We are making money with the concept that was created originally to save us money. We are making money with it partly because our benefits are returned to us. That is superior to being policed by outsiders.
The Chairman: In reviewing the bill in detail, I noticed that the tax commission and the financial management board require Governor-in-Council appointments. You therefore get the general impression that, because these are decisions made by the minister in cabinet, all the appointments to the boards are going to be decision appointments from the very highest level of the federal government. You get the impression that the tax commission and the management board are very important, but really, in the scheme of things, the financial management authority is the body that likely has the most power and most significant role in the entire scheme. Yet the appointments to the boards are not going to be Governor-in-Council appointments; they are going to be appointments by the borrowing members. It gives you the impression of, ``Why not?'' If this body is so important, why was the Governor-in-Council not also involved in appointing these persons to the board? Would you like to comment on that?
Mr. Craven: I do not have a lot of information on how the legislation developed. can tell you that it has been addressed.
The Chairman: Now we will know what you must say.
Mr. Craven: I think Deanna is concerned that I have misunderstood the question.
The Chairman: The question is this: The government is setting up this scheme of taxation and moneys, and they have all these big bodies that are created by the federal government and they make the appointments. Yet, in the end, it comes down to the financial management authority. I have seen you in your office; there are just a few people in your office, but ultimately you will be driving the thing and making it all work. Your board is chosen by the contributing members. Do you just want to say something about how that scheme works, and will work?
Ms. Hamilton: Basically, it is the same as the Municipal Finance Authority of B.C., in that the people who have their necks on the line for the borrowing, jointly and severally, are the people who take the control and who are then able to make the decisions to make sure that this thing is properly balanced and that the bonds that are going to be issued are good-quality bonds. It is really important that it be the people who have that authority to do that. If you put in Governor-in-Council, for instance, you would have somebody at arm's length trying to govern, just like it is now for First Nations communities. You are governed out of Ottawa at arm's length and they do not know what it takes to implement this on the ground and to do the checks and balances to make it work.
The Chairman: Do you have confidence in yourself, in your board of directors, that you could eventually get First Nations involved as contributing members from the whole of our big country?
Ms. Hamilton: Yes, I do. As Mr. Craven says, the advantages are so great that they definitely will be able to come in to be able to take advantage of this. The good news in all of this is that other lending institutions do not want to put in infrastructure. It is difficult for a bank or a third party to come in and take out the pipes in the ground and have a value on it. By putting in the infrastructure, communities can then attract economic development, et cetera, and then the banks and the other lending institutions come along and they put what is on top of the ground, so it makes for a very good partnership.
Mr. Craven: Just to emphasize to that, 45 First Nations have voluntarily joined our investment pool, and they come from all across Canada. They simply send us their money to invest. That is an astounding phenomenon, sending money to a group in British Columbia to invest. They get good returns, and we celebrate all of our success. The link between easy access to the bond market and long-term capital financing and low cost is really profound. Moreover, if you are scrimping and borrowing for short periods of time on a sewer and water system, you are actually not making very good use of your money either.
Engineers love to do a comprehensive system to ensure that pipes are sized the right way so that it is not necessary to lay parallel pipes when the system gets bigger. By looping the system, they take into account the possibility of a main breaking in one place, and yet having it open in another, and so on. To accomplish those ends, you need long-term financing over 25 years.
The value of the land goes up because the servicing is there. Hence the assessment goes up. Hence the tax collections go up. Hence the attractiveness of the place for other developers increases. Before sewer and water went in in British Columbia, before the BCMFA, there was big-town Vancouver and big-town Victoria, and then there were the little tiny villages in the rest of the province. Now there is little difference between Northern British Columbia and Southern British Columbia. The same services are there, and the same hospitals, and it is all because of water and sewer. A lot of it is because the value of the land has risen because of the servicing
The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Craven.
We will now hear from Mr. Ronald Jamieson of the Bank of Montreal.
Good evening, Mr. Jamieson, welcome to our committee. Perhaps you would begin by identifying yourself and stating how your work is associated with or could possibly have an effect on the bill.
Mr. Ronald Jamieson, Senior Vice-President, Aboriginal Banking, Bank of Montreal: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee. It is once again a great pleasure to have an opportunity to meet with you and share a dialogue on this very important piece of legislation.
Mr. Chairman, I am the Senior Vice-President of Aboriginal Banking for BMO Financial Group. I have national responsibility for our entire relationship with Aboriginal people, and I would like to talk about that and the importance of it to us.
I also am Mohawk. I live, still, on the Six Nations Reserve in Southern Ontario. I commute back and forth to Toronto when there is little snow; otherwise I work from home.
BMO Financial Group was the first bank off the mark in setting up relationships with Aboriginal people and communities in Canada. This has allowed me to visit over 400 reserves in this country. Consequently, I have a great deal of experience in lending to Aboriginal people, to corporate entities and to communities directly. I want to share with you what has happened, just for a few minutes, because I think it bears on the discussion that is before you.
Over a period of almost 13 years we have, as an institution, gone from a relatively minor relationship with Aboriginal communities to one today that is $1.4 billion. That is our relationship on a coast-to-coast basis. Even on the scale of any of the major banks, that is a big number. I can tell you that we have done all sorts of financing as part of that portfolio. I am directly responsible for it, and its activity and its growth, and for policing the repayment of loans, and, in fact, in just solidifying our ongoing relationship — and we prefer to call it a partnership — with Aboriginal communities, whether that is by opening new branches or by taking Aboriginal people into the bank in various capacities. I take that as a personal responsibility, even though hiring is not something I do on a day-to-day basis.
I can tell you that the Bank of Montreal has an enviable track record as an institution on the entire North American continent for its portfolio and the quality of its credit. It is very important to BMO Financial that we maintain that. I can also tell you that within the Aboriginal portfolio with BMO Financial Group our credit losses — and all lending institutions have losses — are less than half in Aboriginal banking than they are in any other line of business. It is a stellar track record.
People used to say to me years ago, ``Why do you want to do business with Aboriginal communities? There is no security there. In fact, they are not going to pay you, and what will you do about it?'' That sort of argument just does not hold water at all, and over the past 13 years we have proven that to a great many people.
I had the great pleasure a number of years ago of speaking to the Municipal Finance Authority of British Columbia, when Mr. Craven was still there. Perhaps he recalls that.
Mr. Craven: That was when I was young.
Mr. Jamieson: I am only 28 myself. I just look older because I have travelled a great deal.
Mr. Craven: I almost lost my job. They wanted to hire you instead of me.
Mr. Jamieson: Pursuing this work has been an invaluable lesson for me, both personally and from a business point of view in building this business and building this relationship. How else would a Mohawk from Southern Ontario get to go to 400 reserves and see and experience the things that I have been able to?
Housing is one of our most important programs. Our housing program lends money directly to individuals who live on reserves, with no INAC involvement, no CMHC involvement and no other outside involvement. We lend the money directly, and have done so on more than 20 reserves; but there is much more work to be done. We have never had a foreclosure; in fact, we have had very few arrears in that portfolio. My brethren in BMO Financial Group in the mortgage portfolio would only wish to have that track record. It is truly stellar.
You might think that my coming to you in support of this very important legislation would seem to be putting myself out of work. Really, it will not. Banks are fully secured lenders, typically. Our terms are typically short term. In fact, we do not like to go much beyond five years. There are instances in Canada with very important customers where we have gone beyond 10, and even as high as 15 years, but we do not like it; and because we do not like it, we charge a premium for it.
What Mr. Craven was saying earlier about the preferred rates of a massive borrowing are right on. I could not say it better than Mr. Craven has said it, so I will not attempt to. He has really nailed it. We see First Nations coming to us ad infinitum in the future. For the large-scale financings, the tens of millions of dollars, if banks did it they would then turn around and syndicate to diversify their risk among other banks. That is how we operate. Typically, we syndicate anything over $50 million among other banks. However, for the very large borrowings, this legislation would provide First Nations communities with a real opportunity to put the infrastructure in place that would then attract commercial opportunities and economic development opportunities to those communities. They could then come to us and borrow some money to put the things that go on the ground, as opposed to under the ground.
Let me put before you a very real example of how this authority would be of benefit. There has been much talk about the proposed Mackenzie Valley pipeline, which is a multi-billion dollar opportunity. I believe sooner or later it will happen. No Canadian bank could finance that. In fact, not all the major banks in Canada put together could finance that. It would absolutely require a bond financing. In fact, all the banks in North America would be needed to syndicate the amount of money required. Even the very large U.S. banks, such as Citibank and Bank of America, could not do it alone. They would be going also to the bond market. That is what this legislation contemplates.
Let me point out several minor concerns that I have, although not with the legislation itself. For the record, I am strongly in support of this bill. However, it must be optional for First Nations people to join or not join. I have read that in the documents and I am comfortable with it, but I want to say for the record that it is absolutely critical that it be optional. Second, it must never remove the fiduciary obligation of the federal government to Aboriginal people in Canada. It must never intercede in that. That is critical to me.
Those are the two caveats that I would have, and only those. In every other way, I feel the bill is overdue.
I would also like to say to the committee that if the politicians here in Ottawa are looking for unanimous support from First Nations people or Aboriginal people in Canada for this legislation, it will never, ever happen. The divergence within Aboriginal communities in Canada is great, just as it is in any large population base, particularly when you spread it over that amount of geography. The issues, concerns and people are different. The cultures are different. Yes, there are some similarities, but there are some great differences.
Unanimous, 100 per cent agreement will never occur. However, once this legislation is enacted and these institutions are a going concern, I think you will see many previous naysayers and others cheering, because this is long overdue.
With those short comments, I would be pleased to take any questions you might have.
Senator Watt: You raised two points of concern, the first being that it should be optional. I think it is optional now, after the cleanup that has been done on the legislation itself. You then said that the government should not be let off the hook in terms of its fiduciary responsibility. Where do you see the comfort in that area? Do you see that being done in the legislation itself, with the Indian Act kicking in if need be?
Mr. Jamieson: Senator Watt, as I look at the material, this is based on large-scale infrastructure financing. The government still has a fiduciary obligation to care for and nurture Aboriginal people in areas of education, health, welfare and other programs. This legislation does not impact that in any way, in my mind.
I am saying that I would never want to envision a day where a First Nations community is in trouble — I will not even begin to describe what that trouble might be — with some bureaucrat within the Department of Indian Affairs saying, ``If you need money you have to talk to these people, because that is not our problem.'' I do not see that in the legislation. I only wanted that read into the record, senator.
Senator Watt: I have one further area. Would this piece of legislation help us at the international trade level?
Mr. Jamieson: Yes, I believe it would, because it would put the tools in the hands of the borrowing people to strengthen their economic opportunity on the ground. That will take some time, Senator Watt, but I believe that it is going in the right direction. I have little fear that I will be out of work, though, because there are many, many communities who are not qualified to join this group.
Senator Watt: Perhaps we will ask you to help us out; perhaps we will have a job for you.
Mr. Jamieson: I hope so. Maybe I will even be retired then, senator. Who knows?
Senator Watt: You will be more available to us then.
The Chairman: The next witness is Mr. Douglas Norris.
Mr. Norris, do you have an opening statement? Perhaps you could give us your background and how that is related to the bill before us.
Mr. Douglas A. Norris, Director General, Census and Demographic Statistics, Statistics Canada: I am responsible at Statistics Canada for what we call the social and demographic area that includes our program on Aboriginal statistics. As the committee members may know, we have been engaged for some time in the collection of information, as part of our national statistical system, on First Nations and other Aboriginal people. There have been some issues in the past with that. The bill before you today presents us with a real opportunity in the future to strengthen and improve the kinds of statistical information available to First Nations people and, more generally, to Aboriginal people. On behalf of Statistics Canada, I would like to support the establishment of the First Nations statistical institute. The bill before you concerns a number of areas, but my comments today are restricted to the statistical institute, although that institute will certainly play a role in supporting the other institutes being proposed as well.
The creation of the First Nations statistical institute offers the opportunity for Statistics Canada and First Nations to work together to expand and develop more comprehensive and complete data on First Nations people.
We do, as I mentioned, collect information currently. However, the new institute presents us with opportunities that I do not think we have had before. In my own career at Statistics Canada over the past 20 years, I have seen an increasing interest on the part of First Nations to have and to use statistical information for various programs and other purposes. It is that increasing interest that presents us with the opportunities to work with this new institute to improve statistical information for all of us.
Certainly, just as other levels of government have the capacity to generate and analyze their own information, First Nations governments and organizations require information of their own in order to collect, analyze and publish the information. They need to have this capacity in order to meet their own decision-making responsibilities and accountabilities. Several years ago the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples pointed to the value of statistical information; since that time I have certainly witnessed an increasing interest and desire on their part to obtain more information and to learn more about information.
One reason we have had problems in the past with collecting data on a complete basis is that often First Nations made no use of the statistical information available. That, perhaps, can be traced to a lack of statistical capacity in terms of realizing the importance of that information and how it might be used.
Certainly, since the royal commission, and particularly over the last three or four years, there has been a reversal in that situation. We have responded to that at Statistics Canada by mounting a modest statistical training program for Aboriginal people to help better explain the possible uses of statistical data. As a matter of fact, that program is currently oversubscribed, even though we give it fairly often. That is a very modest start to building the kind of statistical capacity needed.
From the discussions I have had with the proponents of the First Nations statistical institute I understand that they will certainly take a lead role in the analysis and dissemination of statistical information to First Nations, and this would assure that the appropriate data are made available to decision makers and others.
In addition to providing much needed statistical support to First Nations communities, the establishment of a First Nations statistical institute will have the effect of improving the amount and quality of data on First Nations that we at Statistics Canada will continue to develop and provide as part of our role in the national statistical system. I see both our work at Statistics Canada and the work of the First Nations statistical institute as being very complementary to one another.
The First Nations statistical institute should provide advice to federal departments on statistical matters pertaining to First Nations people and communities, and it is our hope that the legislation in front of you will help us better design our statistical programs to be culturally sensitive and to better capture the reality of First Nations communities.
The establishment of the First Nations statistical institute provides an excellent opportunity to build a collaborative working relationship and knowledge-transfer so that credible, nationally comparable, data is available on First Nations.
These are essential components to meet the long-term needs for First Nation responsibility in financial planning, program management, service delivery and other program delivery. In many ways I compare the First Nations statistical institute to provincial and territorial statistical agencies that have existed for some time and that are very much an integral part of the national statistical system. These organizations have mandates of their own within the provinces and territories and carry out those mandates independent of, but in collaboration with, Statistics Canada;, as a result, we are better able to meet our mandate and we think we can provide support to the provincial and territorial governments in meeting their mandates. I see very much the same situation happening with the First Nations statistical institute.
Although the establishment of the First Nations statistical institute is very much a welcome initiative, it must develop as a professional, credible and sustaining institution. A First Nations statistical institute, like any modern day statistical institute, needs to gain the support and confidence not only of First Nations people but more generally of all Canadians. In order to meet this challenge, there are some prerequisites; many of those are embodied in the draft legislation. In particular, the First Nations statistical institute must place statistical activities in the context of safeguarding the confidentiality and privacy of individuals, businesses and organizations, something that is fundamental to any statistical organization.
It must be a public institution, in the sense of being transparent with aggregate data and analysis being universally available, and using confidentiality constraints similar to what we apply at Statistics Canada. It must have the ability to collect and share data with federal government departments and other agencies while maintaining respect for individual privacy and confidentiality.
It must work in collaboration with Statistics Canada to avoid duplication and to provide support and guidance to activities of the national statistical system that pertain to First Nations. It must have a strong professional board of directors. It needs to have a clear business plan that recognizes the need to build a First Nations statistical institute in a gradual and sustainable manner, as capacity, professional capability and trust develop over time. Finally, it must have an adequate budget that recognizes the costs and the complexity of a modern day statistical organization.
The proposed legislation, based in large part on Statistics Canada's own Statistics Act, provides the framework to develop the First Nations statistical institute along these lines. Statistics Canada strongly supports the development of the First Nations statistical institute and we believe that such an organization can play an important role for both First Nations and the national statistical system. We at Statistics Canada are committed to sharing our experience and expertise to establish a First Nations statistical institute as a statistical focal point for First Nations data.
We believe we have much to offer, given our experience and our technical experience, and we are looking forward to working with the First Nations statistical institute once it is established. I might add that, as a result of our work over the past several years, we have already drafted a memorandum of understanding to set out the way in which we will be working with FNSI once it gets established and determines its own priorities.
We believe that the First Nations statistical institute will be a valuable contributor in building a strong First Nations statistical program and we certainly look forward to welcoming the First Nations statistical institute into the Canadian statistical family.
Senator Stratton: When we talk about statistics, privacy and transparency are important, because not only is it necessary to respect privacy but there must be transparency since you will be publishing. Can you give us examples? When you talk about privacy, what do you mean? When you talk about transparency, what do you mean? How do you assure people that there will indeed be privacy? How will you ensure that anything you publish is not going to cause a problem?
I know you have the answers, but I think that you need to state them on the record so that everyone around them is comfortable.
Mr. Norris: You show confidence in me, senator.
Senator Stratton: You would not be in your position without having the answer to those questions.
Mr. Norris: The privacy issue is very important. Statistics Canada, as will be the First Nations statistical institute, is governed by the Privacy Act.
Privacy really is a very important aspect of any statistical organization. It is necessary to ensure, on the one hand, that useful information is provided about Canadian society, but, on the other hand, that it is done in such a way as to safeguard the privacy of individuals — and from that come the confidentiality aspects. While a statistical agency can paint a picture of groups of people or of generalities, it needs to be very careful not to in any way disclose information about an individual. It is in that sense that we speak of privacy; and there are various methodologies that we use in making information available that actually do that.
The transparency that you refer to is important because the credibility of any statistical organization depends on the public's seeing that organization as producing information and making it available to everyone. Many debates are held, for example, on information that Statistics Canada produces. People have different views about how that information gets interpreted and what it means for various programs or policies. It is essential to a good democratic process that there be a strong, high quality database available to engage a public debate in that way. On the one hand, we want to do that, and have the transparency, but on the other hand it needs to be done in the context of carefully preserving the confidentiality of the information and not putting any individual at any kind of risk.
Senator Stratton: Is there a 92-year limitation on this, as there is with the census? We are having a battle in the Senate about the release of confidential information with respect to census data.
Mr. Norris: That is a provision with the census information in particular. That does not apply to this information.
Senator Stratton: There will be no time limitation on this data?
Mr. Norris: No.
Senator Stratton: Parliament can do whatever it wants in the future, fortunately or not fortunately; so there is no time limitation of 92 years or whatever. This is sacrosanct?
Mr. Norris: There is no time at which that privacy or confidential aspect can be breached.
Senator Stratton: You talked about a strong board of directors. Who determines the board of directors and who determines whether or not the board of directors will be strong? You talked about it, so I have to ask.
Mr. Norris: The board of directors will be appointed by the Governor-in-Council. The criteria for that, which I have seen in draft form, point to the need to have the kinds of qualifications that essentially we look for at Statistics Canada.
The Chief Statistician of Canada will be a member of that board of directors and will provide a very useful link between Statistics Canada and the new First Nations statistical institute.
Senator Stratton: Anyone appointed to this board will have the appropriate strong background?
Mr. Norris: That is right, in order to have both the understanding and awareness of the issues facing First Nations and, on the other hand, to have the appreciation of information and how it can be used in the process.
The Chairman: In reading the bill, I began to understand the need for the three financial institutions the bill creates, but I did wonder how a statistics body came into the picture. Was Statistics Canada involved in any way, either in recommending or in providing the set-up, with getting the First Nations statistical institute put into the bill as kind of an add-on to the financial bodies?
Mr. Norris: The origin of the institute comes from First Nations themselves, recognizing the need for a statistical body to collect and disseminate the necessary kinds of information. Early on, we certainly had discussions with First Nations people about what it means to set up such an institute. They were interested in our experience, and what it provides and what it involves. While it certainly was a First Nations-driven initiative, we have been very supportive from the beginning in thinking about the institute in terms of providing advice, and providing our experience in operating a statistical institute. On our side, we have been looking forward to such an institute because, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, we really see that institute and our work as being complementary and, in fact, helping us to do a better job at what we do, while also meeting specific objectives that will come out of the need for First Nations governance.
The Chairman: Do you see a connection then, recognizing that this bill deals with First Nations financial institutions and in view of the fact that we are talking of infrastructure on reserve land. How is the whole matter of statistical information related to that?
Mr. Norris: As I believe the first witness tonight mentioned on a number of occasions, the importance of having credible information and good data is something that is very much valued in the financial area. A statistical institute can provide the technical expertise to ensure that statistical types of information are produced, made available, and displayed, just as we perform that role for Canadians at large, and as we do that for Canadian business and for Canadian federal, provincial and territorial governments. The First Nations statistical institute will have a role to play in supporting the data-information needs of the financial institutions. However, it goes beyond that in terms of providing other kinds of information as well. I certainly see an important role for it.
The Chairman: I can understand that any Aboriginal person in the country might see the usefulness of these financial institutions, thinking that ultimately they might affect him because they will provide for the First Nations local band council being able to raise money for infrastructure, but, if I were an Aboriginal, I would have a hard time connecting this statistical body that is being created with somehow improving my life.
Mr. Norris: It is a challenge. It is one that we face with all Canadians in terms of convincing them of the usefulness of statistical information and taking the time to fill our surveys. When you think about how the information is used, very often it is used to identify the needs of a community, for example. What are the priority needs. For example, I suspect statistical analysis and information went into the planning of the budget that we heard today from the government, identifying what the program needs are, and where they could be targeted. That kind of information does relate to an individual, whether it is I, as a Canadian in my community, or a First Nations person, in the sense that it can identify where there is a need in a community for new housing, more education, or other kinds of services. I think statistical information is extremely valuable in pinpointing the need for that, and certainly, in my experience, governments look to having that information in order to make the decisions on programs that are required. It is very important.
The Chairman: In terms of the process of gathering national statistics on the lives and activities of First Nations people, would you say that the federal government has the hardest time getting good information from across the country from First Nations?
Mr. Norris: It has been difficult. I would not underestimate that. Part of the reason is perhaps that we, collectively, as a national statistical system, have not done a good enough job of get getting across the discussion we have just had about the importance of information and how it really can affect you, your family and your community. That is something that the new proposed institute will really facilitate, and as a result I am very hopeful that not only will that information be better, but our own information in the national statistical system will also be better.
The Chairman: I do know that from firsthand experience. I live in Northern Canada and I know that it has been difficult for Statistics Canada to get information from First Nations communities, because invariably it means that someone from a bigger centre, oftentimes someone from the South, like Edmonton, or Winnipeg, is coming to a smaller community as the person tasked with going to the homes of Native people and asking them questions. You must remember that many of the questions are designed for people in the South. I suspect that the questions being asked of all Canadians are the same. Therefore, the people making up the questions would do it from a southern perspective in downtown Toronto or suburbia and oftentimes the questions would not be relevant. Inappropriate questions can lead to difficulty.
Also the Aboriginal people in the North are often a little reluctant to invite strangers into their homes, because they are generally poorer and do not have all the amenities, and they find the questions being asked somewhat insensitive and very difficult, because they are just poor people, who are often sick and faced with all sorts of social problems. In that situation I could see a real unwillingness for Aboriginals to divulge information to people who just suddenly come to their doorstep and want to come in and ask them questions. That has been the difficulty.
The section of the bill dealing with the statistical institute does talk about a First Nation perspective on the collection and analysis of data and statistics not presently interpreted from a First Nation perspective, reflecting First Nations' customs and culture. Hopefully, this new First Nations statistical institute will be able to do a much better job in asking culturally appropriate questions and will get information that I suspect is not being gathered at the moment. Would you comment on that?
Mr. Norris: You have put it very well. That is essentially one of the most important contributions that will come from the establishment of a First Nation-led statistical institute. In many cases, surveys designed nationally, and in the distant past, did not have a lot of input from First Nations people and might not have always been the most appropriate for small, remote communities. We certainly try hard to recognize that, and, incidentally, that issue applies not only to First Nations but to some of our recent immigrant groups as well.
Having a First Nations statistical institute will allow us to benefit from making our surveys, even the ones we will continue to carry out at a national level, much more culturally sensitive and much more relevant to the reality of First Nations communities. I have already seen that myself in the opportunities that I have taken to go out and meet with band councils and talk about their statistical needs. It is very useful and this will permit much more of that interaction, and no doubt will have the results that you are suggesting.
The Chairman: I know that there is not a great deal of Canadian knowledge about Aboriginal people. It is amazing, I find, that there is not very much information. A few years ago a TV program called North of 60, which I was involved in, depicted a little northern Aboriginal community. Many people in Canada, I understand, were amazed by this first view into the lives and homes of Aboriginal people. In some respects it was educational and beneficial, I am sure. I know that Aboriginal people in our country do not always vote or participate in Canadian society. Maybe you are not the best person to ask, but still you may comment on whether this scheme of setting up this First Nations statistical institute is a way for the Federal Government to intrude into the Aboriginal people's lives in an attempt to get information that has been very difficult to get.
If you are a bit cynical, you could view it this way, that having the First Nations do the work will now be a way of getting into the lives and homes of Aboriginal people to gather information for the benefit of the rest of the country. Do you have any comment on that?
Mr. Norris: I believe the proposed institute will be led by First Nations people. I would think that they, more than anyone else, would be very sensitive to that issue. They would be well placed, on the one hand, to recognize the sensitivities of collecting information and, on the other hand, to recognize the value that the information could bring to First Nations communities. This will be a positive factor in the future, because it will be led by First Nations people themselves, and they will be very sensitive to the issue you raise.
Senator Léger: You just said that the First Nations would be the ones doing it. From previous discussions, I understand that with respect to finances and so on — I may not be expressing it correctly — they are already doing it. Does this initiative, the First Nations statistical institute, come from the First Nations themselves, or does it come from the federal government?
Mr. Norris: It is coming from the First Nations themselves. They recognize the need for statistical information. The federal government and Statistics Canada have responded by seeing how we can help build a long, sustainable, credible institution; but the ideas, and certainly the priorities, will come out of the institute itself after it is set up and a board of directors is there. The programs and priorities will come from First Nations people themselves.
Senator Léger: It cannot start until you say ``Go.''
Mr. Norris: It cannot start until the legislation is passed and you say ``Go.''
Senator Léger: That is what I would like, but from what I heard before — and nothing is illegal, I do not think — it sounds like an initiative from the federal government. However, I certainly agree with Senator Sibbeston, and you certainly must know that sometimes Statistics Canada has a hard time asking the right questions. They have nothing to do with the people that are answering them, and they do not know where they stand. I imagine that must be very complex with the First Nations, with the Aboriginal people, so it has to come from them.
Mr. Norris: That is right, without a doubt.
Senator Léger: Maybe you could try it first, and then let them do it. Thank you very much.
The Chairman: I gather there are no more questions. Thank you very much, Mr. Norris. That concludes the presentations for tonight. I want to thank the three witnesses who appeared before us tonight, and I would thank all the other people present who are interested in the subject. Thank you very much, and keep coming.
We have two more meetings scheduled. On March 8 we will hear from a number of chiefs who are against the bill; we are certainly interested in hearing their reasons why they are not supportive of the bill. In the following meeting, on March 9, we will have taxpayers who currently live on reserves or have some experience under the present regime. We are interested to hear how they have been faring and what their experience has been.
That will be the last meeting, and we expect to conclude consideration of this bill shortly thereafter. That is the schedule. Thank you very much.
The committee adjourned.