Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Finance
Issue 27 - Minutes of Proceedings
OTTAWA, Tuesday, July 5, 2005
(38)
[English]
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met in camera at 9:36 a.m., this day, in room 705, Victoria Building, the Chair, the Honourable Donald H. Oliver, presiding.
Members of the committee present: The Honourable Senators Cowan, Day, Downe, Mitchell, Murray, P.C., Oliver, Ringuette and Stratton (8).
In attendance: Odette Madore and Alex Smith, Research Officers, Library of Parliament.
The Honourable Senator Day moved that staff of senators' offices be permitted to stay in the room.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Pursuant to rule 92(2)(e) the committee considered a draft future agenda.
The committee discussed a workplan and witnesses for its future work on legislation and the estimates.
It was agreed that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to develop a schedule and witness list if and when Bill C-48 is referred to the committee that reflects the discussions during this meeting.
The committee considered a draft supplementary budget application for fiscal year 2005-2006 for its examination of legislation and the estimates:
| Professional and Other Services | $ 8,700 |
| Transportation and Communication | $ 110,515 |
| All Other Expenditures | $ 6,250 |
| TOTAL | $ 135,465 |
The Honourable Senator Downe moved that the committee concur in the supplementary budget application and that the Chair be authorized to submit the said budget to the Senate Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
At 10:50 a.m. the committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
ATTEST:
OTTAWA, Tuesday, July 12, 2005
(39)
[English]
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met at 8:37 a.m., this day, in room 9, Victoria Building, the Chair, the Honourable Donald H. Oliver, presiding.
Members of the committee present: The Honourable Senators Austin, Banks, Cowan, Day, Downe, Eggleton, P.C., Harb, Murray, P.C., Oliver, Ringuette, Stratton, Tkachuk and Trenholme Counsell (13).
In attendance: Alexandre Laurin and Odette Madore, Research Officers, Library of Parliament.
Pursuant to the Order of Reference adopted by the Senate on Tuesday, July 6, 2005, the committee began its consideration of Bill C-48, An Act to authorize the Minister of Finance to make certain payments.
APPEARING:
The Honourable John McKay, P.C., M.P., Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance.
WITNESSES:
Department of Finance Canada:
Peter Devries, General Director, Deputy Minister's Office;
Werner Heiss, Director and General Counsel, General Legal Services.
Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat:
Charles-Antoine St-Jean, Comptroller General of Canada;
John Morgan, Acting Assistant Comptroller General, Financial Management and Analysis Sector, Office of the Comptroller General.
C.D. Howe Institute:
Finn Poschmann, Associate Director of Research and Senior Policy Analyst.
As an individual:
Stanley Hartt.
Senator Tkachuk raised a question regarding the committee's agenda and attaching observations of Conservative Senators to the committee's report on Bill C-48.
Debate.
Senator Tkachuck raised a question regarding the appearance of the Minister of Finance on Bill C-48.
Debate.
The Chair made a statement.
Mr. McKay made a statement and, together with the other witnesses, answered questions.
At 10:37 a.m., the committee suspended.
At 10:40 a.m., the committee resumed.
The Chair made a statement.
The Honourable Senator Tkachuk moved that the committee do now adjourn.
Debate.
The question being put on the motion, it was negatived.
Mr. St-Jean made a statement and, together with Mr. Morgan, answered questions.
At 11:52 a.m., the committee suspended.
At 11:53 a.m., the committee resumed.
The Chair made a statement.
Mr. Hartt made a statement. Mr. Poschmann made a statement. The witnesses answered questions.
At 12:40 p.m. the committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
ATTEST:
OTTAWA, Tuesday, July 12, 2005
(40)
[English]
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met at 2 p.m., this day, in room 9, Victoria Building, the Chair, the Honourable Donald H. Oliver, presiding.
Members of the committee present: The Honourable Senators Banks, Cowan, Day, Downe, Eggleton, P.C., Harb, Murray, P.C., Oliver, Ringuette, Stratton, Tkachuk and Trenholme Counsell (12).
In attendance: Odette Madore, Research Officer, Library of Parliament.
Pursuant to the Order of Reference adopted by the Senate on Tuesday, July 6, 2005, the committee continued its consideration of Bill C-48, An Act to authorize the Minister of Finance to make certain payments.
WITNESSES:
Human Resources and Skills Development Canada:
Maryantonett Flumian, Deputy Minister of Labour, Associate Deputy Minister of HRSDC and Associate Deputy Minister of SDC;
Bayla Kolk, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Housing and Homelessness.
Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation:
Bill Smith, Vice-President, Assisted Housing.
Canadian Council of Chief Executives:
David Stewart-Patterson, Executive Vice President;
Sam Boutziouvis, Vice-President, Policy and Director of Research.
The Chair made a statement.
Ms. Flumian made a statement and, together with the other witnesses, answered questions.
At 3:08 p.m., the committee suspended.
At 3:10 p.m., the committee resumed.
Mr. Stewart-Patterson made a statement and, together with Mr. Boutziouvis, answered questions.
At 4:20 p.m., the Honourable Senator Tkachuk moved that obervations prepared by Conservative Senators be given to the Chair of the Committee by Friday, July 15, 2005 at noon, to be appended to the report to be tabled by the Chair when Bill C-48 is reported to the Senate.
After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was negatived.
The Honourable Senator Harb moved that any consideration of votes on any motion dealing with the disposition in committee of a bill be held no earlier than the completion of hearing all witnesses.
After debate, the Honourable Senator Harb agreed to withdraw his motion.
It was agreed that the text of the motion of Senator Harb be tabled for the consideration of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.
It was agreed to move to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-48, an An Act to authorize the Minister of Finance to make certain payments.
It was agreed that the title stand postponed.
The Chair asked whether clause 1 shall carry.
The Honourable Senator Tkachuck moved:
That Bill C-48 be amended in clause 1, on page 1,
(a) by replacing line 13 with the following:
“$4 billion.”; and
(b) by replacing line 23 with the following:
“$5 billion.”
Debate.
A point of order was raised with respect to the time alotted for Senator Tkachuk to speak.
Debate.
At 5:20 p.m., the committee suspended.
At 5:35 p.m., the committee resumed.
CHAIR'S RULING
Honourable senators, 15 minutes are up and I have had the opportunity to look into this matter.
Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules & Forms, 6th edition, says — and all senators are familiar with this — that the Speaker has ruled on many occasions that it is not competent for the Speaker to exercise procedural control over the committees. Committees are and must remain masters of their own procedure.
On the other hand, that must be coupled with rule 96(7) that Senator Eggleton quoted:
Except as provided in these rules, a select committee
— which this committee is —
shall not
— "shall not" being mandatory
without the approval of the Senate
and there is no approval of the Senate
adopt any special procedure or practice that is inconsistent with the practices and usages of the Senate itself.
It is clear that we cannot do anything in this committee, even though we are the masters of our own procedures, that is inconsistent with what happens in the house.
Senator Tkachuk has been speaking to a motion on clause-by-clause consideration. The question is how much time has he had. He has been speaking for 33 minutes. Rule 37(3) reads:
The sponsor of a bill and the first Senator speaking immediately thereafter shall be permitted not more than forty-five minutes each for debate, inclusive of any question or comments from other Senators which they may permit in the course of their remarks.
(4) Except as provided in sections (2) and (3) above, no Senator shall speak for more than fifteen minutes, inclusive of any question or comments from other Senators which the Senator may permit in the course of his or her remarks.
Those are the only rules that we can find that apply to the time limit for the senator speaking. Senator Tkachuk has spoken for more than 15 minutes, and there has yet been no objection to his speaking for more than 15 minutes.
As to whether there is anything inconsistent with the practices and usages of the Senate within what is going on now, Senator Tkachuk is the official critic, or the sponsor for the opposition, of this bill and is, therefore, entitled to 45 minutes. He has already spoken for 33 minutes, which means he has 12 minutes remaining. At the conclusion of that time, including any questions put to him or comments made, he will not be allowed to proceed further with his remarks in relation to this motion.
There is no common precedent in the Senate to impose time limits on debate in committee. Therefore, we must follow the procedures from the Chamber. I rule, therefore, that Senator Tkachuk has only 12 minutes more to proceed on this motion.
The question being put on whether the Speaker's Ruling shall be sustained, it was negatived.
The Committee resumed its consideration of the motion in amendment.
Debate.
The question being put on the motion in amendment on clause 1, it was negatived.
The Chair asked whether clause 1 shall carry.
Debate.
At 6:07 p.m., the committee suspended.
At 6:11 p.m., the committee resumed.
The Honourable Senator Day made a statement regarding the attaching of the observations of Conservative Senators to the report of the committtee on Bill C-48.
After debate, it was agreed that the observations prepared by Conservative Senators be given to the Steering Committee by Friday, July 15, 2005 at noon; that the Steering Committee ensure that the observations conform to the normal good taste of observations; and that the observations be appended to the report to be tabled by the Chair when Bill C-48 is reported to the Senate.
It was agreed to continue with clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-48.
It was agreed that clause 1 carry, on division.
It was agreed that clause 2 carry, on division.
It was agreed that clause 3 carry, on division.
It was agreed that the title carry, on division.
It was agreed that the Bill carry, on division.
It was agreed that the Chair report the Bill without amendment but with observations at the next sitting of the Senate, on division.
At 6:17 p.m., the committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
ATTEST:
Catherine Piccinin
Clerk of the Committee