Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Human Rights
Issue 19 - Evidence - June 16, 2005 - Afternoon meeting
HALIFAX, Thursday, June 16, 2005
The Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights met this day at 1:10 p.m. to examine and report upon Canada's international obligations in regards to the rights and freedoms of children.
Senator A. Raynell Andreychuk (Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Senators, we are pleased to welcome this afternoon Ms. Elaine Ferguson, Executive Director, Child Care Connection Nova Scotia.
The floor is yours, Ms. Ferguson.
Ms. Elaine Ferguson, Executive Director, Child Care Connection Nova Scotia: Madam Chair, senators, Child Care Connection Nova Scotia is a community-based development organization for child care and our primary clients are child care practitioners. The purpose of our development projects and modest infrastructure is to enable these child care practitioners to be the best they can be in their delivery of child care services to children and their families. We believe that investments in children will be maximized through recognizing, valuing and supporting the development of an effective, quality, early childhood community in Nova Scotia. Our vision is that there will be a comprehensive, coordinated early childhood community that maximizes resources; that early childhood practitioners in Nova Scotia will be self-confident, skilled and professional; and that there will be a favourable public image of child care practice. I have included our annual report to stakeholders in Appendix A that will tell you more about our activities.
This presentation will focus on legislation and policy related to early learning and child care, and specifically articles 3.3, 18.2 and 18.3 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Article 3.3 relates to policy and legislation that affects the part of child care practitioners in meeting our country's obligations under the CRC. To provide a voice for the children that these practitioners care for and about, I have included their comments on their teachers in both visual and verbal form. Articles 18.2 and 18.3 relate to parents' accessibility to child care services.
Canadian society has undergone a profound change in recent years, a change that has prompted public officials to pledge their commitment to increasing positive outcomes for children. We now have a public policy framework that supports good outcomes for children. Under the umbrella of the National Children's Agenda, NCA, and following the basic parameters for improving social programs described in the Social Union Framework Agreement, SUFA, Canada's first ministers committed to the Early Childhood Development Initiative, ECDI, which pledged funding to strengthen early childhood development, learning and care.
It states that every child should be valued and have opportunities to develop his or her unique physical, emotional, intellectual, spiritual and creative potential. Building on this commitment, the federal, provincial and territorial ministers responsible for social services agreed to make additional investments in the specific area of early learning and child care, based on the recognition that child care plays an important role in meeting national goals. The Multilateral Framework on Early Learning and Child Care, ELCC, provides the framework for increased funding specifically for provincially and territorially regulated early learning and child care programs.
In November of 2004, the federal, provincial and territorial ministers of social services agreed to the QUAD principles of quality, universally-inclusive, accessible and developmental. This national policy framework will further advance the ability of the child care sector to do its part in meeting Canada's obligations under the CRC. The CRC article 3.3 states:
States Parties shall ensure that the institutions, services and facilities responsible for the care or protection of children shall conform with the standards established by competent authorities, particularly in the areas of safety, health, in the number and suitability of their staff, as well as competent supervision.
Two types of standards or regulations are important to ensuring the quality of child care provided: government regulation and sector self-regulation. In the government regulation area we call the standards licensing regulations. They help to reduce or eliminate three broad areas of risk that threaten children's health and well-being while they attend child care programs. They are safety hazards, health hazards, and developmental impairment hazards. The area of developmental impairment is relatively new and is based on a growing body of evidence that children's early years' experiences have a lifelong impact.
Does Canada's legislation as it applies to children meet our obligations under article 3.3? All provinces and territories in Canada have standards that have to be met in order for a child care service to be licensed. While these standards or regulations vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, overall there is not a wide variance and, overall, children are safe. However, when we consider the area of developmental impairment, the "number and suitability of staff as well as competent supervision'' as required by regulation, becomes important.
Licensing rules or standards do not protect children. They help people to protect children through structuring the caregiving environment. However, the staff must have the basic theoretical and practical knowledge to interpret and apply the standards. As well, they must have the knowledge and expertise to apply what cannot be regulated — sensitive, informed caregiving practice that stimulates children's development. People always make the difference. People are the first layer of defence against harm. The theoretical knowledge and experience of the practitioner will be reflected in the layers of preventive practice and informs all preventive measures taken in any given circumstance. Ideally, preventive practice identifies when a risk becomes a hazard and appropriate measures are then taken.
The most efficient and available means of ensuring that people intervene before risk becomes hazard is through regulating the credentials of professional program staff in all programs. Post-secondary training in early childhood care and education provides the knowledge to assess these hazards and plan or act accordingly.
Currently, in Canada, the ratio of trained to untrained staff in legislation ranges from no trained staff required in Nunavut and Northwest Territories to two out of three staff in Nova Scotia and Manitoba. Administrators of child care services must have an Early Childhood Care and Education credential in Alberta, Quebec, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia and Manitoba.
Dr. Gillian Doherty notes that caregiver training, ratio and group size have been referred to as the "iron triangle'' that supports quality in child care programs. Maximum desired levels are identified in her work, and the Canadian Child Care Federation National Statement on Quality Child Care and the National Health and Safety Performance Standards — Guidelines for Out-of-Home Child Care Programs identify similar recommended adult-child ratios and group sizes.
The National Health Safety Performance Standards — Guidelines for Out-of-Home Child Care Programs, published in 1992, was developed by the American Public Health Association in cooperation with the American Academy of Paediatrics. It documents 981 standards most needed for the prevention of injury, morbidity and mortality in child care settings. The standards were reduced to 182 and are now published as Stepping Stones to Using Caring for Our Children—Protecting Children from Harm. These standards serve as the most critical and logical starting points for administrators in their planning of policy and regulatory revisions as well as parents, child care and health professionals who are most concerned about protecting children from harm in child care settings.
Table 1 on page 6 gives you the guidelines for staff to child ratio and maximum group size and, if we look at the infants, which would be the zero to 12 months, we see that the staff to child ratio is one to three, and the maximum group size is six.
A provincial and territorial comparison of ratios and group sizes in centres is provided on page 7. Some provinces and territories have similar group sizes and ratios for some age groups as is recommended by Stepping Stones. Of concern would be those provinces and territories with regulations that exceed those recommended, in particular ratios and group sizes for infants.
Table 2 on page 7 shows the rations and group sizes for infants across for the provinces and territories. In New Brunswick, as recommended in Stepping Stones, the ratio is one to three, but the maximum number in a group is nine infants, three more than is recommended.
In Nova Scotia the ration is one to four, so that is one teacher for four infants, and a group size of 10. A conundrum we face in the regulations here is that we do not know how we can have half a person with 10 children.
In Quebec, the numbers are even more alarming. The ratio is one to 5 and a group size of 15. I started my child care career taking care of children under the age of one. They were as young as one month old and up to 12 months old. We had a ratio of one to three. I cannot imagine looking after 15 infants, even with three people working together. That is a concern.
I will now touch on sector standards. Occupational standards and standards of practice, as determined by the child care sector, identify core pre-service training and a foundation for early childhood care and education training guidelines. Occupational standards and standards of practice have been developed by the Canadian Child Care Federation through broad consultation with child care practitioners. Vehicles for certification of practice, classification of credentials and registry of ongoing professional development are in place in some provinces and territories and being developed in others. For instance, Nova Scotia has a voluntary certification of practice process for both early childhood educators and early childhood centre administrators. Alberta's Children's Services, in partnership with the Alberta Child Care Network and the Canadian Child Care Federation, have developed an accreditation process for group and family home agency child care programs. This process is a means to evaluate and recognize best practices in child care programs.
The Canadian Child Care Federation has developed an accreditation model for post-secondary early childhood care and education programs. Through this accreditation process these programs demonstrate accountability to the child care sector and to society in their provision of training to increase good outcomes for children.
As a developing profession, child care is at a point where collective standards are developed for practice and the delivery of child care to children and parents. These are professional standards and practised on a voluntary basis. Sanctions are not in place for non-compliance. Legislative recognition is in its infancy with a number of provinces and territories at various stages in its development.
UNCRC article 18.2 states:
For the purpose of guaranteeing and promoting the rights set forth in the present convention, States Parties shall render appropriate assistance to parents and legal guardians in the performance of their child-rearing responsibilities and shall ensure the development of institutions, facilities and services for the care of children.
Article 18.3 states:
States Parties shall take all appropriate measures to ensure that children of working parents have the right to benefit from child care services and facilities for which they are eligible.
The federal, provincial and territorial ministers of social services, in agreeing to the QUAD principles for a national child care system, have recognized that a child care system is necessary to support parents in their child rearing responsibilities. Building a system will require that the current patchwork of services is stabilized, expanded and enhanced so that it provides a standard of quality care that will optimize children's growth and development and meet parents' needs.
Does Canada's legislation as it applies to children meet these articles? As far as availability to services goes, even parents who can afford to pay for high-quality, regulated child care, have trouble getting it. In Nova Scotia, in 2003, 45,300 children had mothers in the paid workforce. The number of regulated child care spaces in the entire province, including full-day and part-day programs, is 12,194 which would accommodate 27 per cent of the children of working mothers.
As to affordability, costs can also be a barrier. Around the province, child care costs $20 to $28 per day, per child for full-time care. In 2000, the average income of a Nova Scotia family was $46,523. This means the average Nova Scotia family with one child in full-time care could spend between 11 and 15 per cent of its total household income on child care.
Your committee has been asked to examine and report on Canada's international obligations in regards to the rights and freedoms of children, specifically the obligations under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and whether Canada's legislation, as it applies to children, meets these obligations.
Regarding article 3.3, Canada's provincial and territorial governments have established minimum standards to ensure the health and safety of children in licensed child care. In relation to staff number and qualifications, there is room for improvement in some provinces and territories and, overall, a need for a goal in all provinces and territories that staff working with children and families have post-secondary credentials in early childhood care and education.
The child care sector is a developing profession and professional standards have been developed, and processes for monitoring these standards are being developed. At this point, adhering to those standards is voluntary without sanctions in place for non-compliance.
Regarding articles 18.2 and 18.3, a policy framework in the form of the National Children's Agenda, the Early Childhood Development Agreement, the Multilateral Framework Agreement on Early Learning and Child Care and the agreement to the QUAD principles for a national child care system provide the environment for an expansion of services to further meet the needs of parents for accessibility to child care services in terms of availability and affordability.
The policy framework regarding children that is in effect in Canada at this time and the work of the child care sector in establishing professional standards across Canada advances Canada's capability to meet the obligations under the CRC regarding these articles.
Thank you for the opportunity to make this presentation.
Senator Mercer: Thank you for appearing for us and for your excellent presentation. I have three short questions. My first is: How many groups are members of the Child Care Connection?
My second question relates to government spending. I am a member of a political party that has been trying for a number of years to appropriately channel money into child care. This is not a political statement; it is a fact. We have finally started to reach some agreements with some provinces. Do you think that our government spending will have the desired effect?
My third question relates to ratios. You mentioned a ratio of one to five in Quebec with a maximum of 15 children. Does that reflect the real cost of $7 a day for child care? Does the ratio have to be skewed so that $7 or somewhere around that dollar figure meets the cost of child care? Is that the sacrifice we have to make?
I had another question about your opinion on whether we are meeting article 18.3, but I think you have already answered that question.
Ms. Ferguson: Child Care Connections does not have members. We have a constituency. Nova Scotia has about 15 child care organizations, and Child Care Connections is the only one that has the funds to be able to provide any kind of infrastructure. The others are voluntary organizations. They rely on professional development activities and their membership fees. When we were formed, we decided that we did not want to compete with them. We wanted to support them. On our board of directors, however, we have representatives from the various child care organizations. They have input, and they set the direction for the organizations so that each of the organizations has a voice. We also provide our services to the entire child care community in Nova Scotia, free of charge. We seek outside monies through advertisements. We take a sort of non-profit, entrepreneurial type of approach. We seek money outside to subsidize costs because there are few financial resources. We are connected with the other organizations. We do have a constituency. We just do not have members.
The $5 billion is a wonderful start for us to be able to start building the child care system that we envision. Of course, the child care sector will need more money than that. However, the $5 billion gives us a start on it, and we are very pleased about that.
In Nova Scotia we have been assessing the entire child care system and trying to determine how we can use that money to the best effect in order to build a strong foundation. The approach is to stabilize the existing system, which means that we have a retention and recruitment issue. We need to attract more young people to the child care sector. We also need to stabilize the funding. To our delight, our minister in Nova Scotia has realized that the price that parents pay for child care cannot meet the cost of delivering child care if we are to deliver quality child care. Of course, in implementing the QUAD principles, we go beyond just keeping children safe to the point where we enrich the lives of children.
We have to stabilize, and then we need to expand because we need more spaces. Then we have to enhance to meet the quality criterion. It will have a major effect.
Our minister is committed to keeping the price of care down for parents, so he is looking at ways to increase the funding to child care centres so that their costs are met and quality care can be provided.
The ratios in Quebec have been the same for a long time. I am not qualified to speak to whether it is an expensive system. I understand it is around $2 billion per year, which is a lot for one province. However, knowing of the lifelong returns there will be, I think Quebecers will have a wonderful golden age when those children reach the point where they will be contributing to the economy.
We are not meeting the provisions of article18.3, which relates to working parents. I believe that Prince Edward Island cares for about 60 per cent of those children. That number is high, so good for them. In Quebec, the number is higher but in the other provinces and territories the number would probably be similar to the number in Nova Scotia's. The number with regard to Manitoba might also be higher.
Senator Pearson: As you know, I come at this from the child's rights perspective as opposed to the needs of parents. I totally support a universal system that is available for those who want it. However, as a mother of a rather large family, I am always wary of any message that, somehow, by not having my children in child care, I may have short- changed them. I do not believe I did. We have to be careful that any message we convey about the value of child care in early childhood does not imply that parents are less able to provide that care, if they so choose.
You mention that there are many mothers in the workforce. You do not, however, at the same time, mention that many fathers are staying at home. Just because mothers are in the workforce does not mean that there is nobody at home to look after children.
As you know only too well from your long experience, every child is different. Children are more different when they are little than they tend to be when they are older because they have different rates of development and so on. In the discussions of quality to meet the QUAD principles, I have argued that there should be parental involvement. Would you comment on the importance of parental involvement and what you would see as the ideal situation in any child care centre?
My further question has to do with training. I think that child care is a vital profession. However, not all people are qualified to be child care workers. I know from my long years of study that there is no consensus on what comprises healthy child development. What kinds of skills or knowledge do these workers need? You talked about a theoretical background being necessary for healthy child development. What are the three most important things that prospective child care workers need to know before they start to work with children?
Ms. Ferguson: Deep down, my reason for being in child care is to help to optimize children's growth and development. The focus should not be on thinking of children as sort of guaranteed investment certificates. That view bothers me. I am not comfortable with focussing on what children can do for adults.
However, there are times when I have to use certain phrases to attract listeners, particularly when I want to make the point that children's lives have to be enriched. I was delighted when quality and the developmental aspect were included in the design of a national child care system.
A unique aspect of the child care profession is that it is cross-disciplined. We take our theoretical knowledge and practice from social work, from health and from education. We also take from mothering, not parenting, mothering. We tend to lean more towards the mothering aspect than the fathering aspect. That results in a certain gap. When we talk about the nurturing of children, to me that comes from mothering.
As an example of parental involvement, I think of the Peter Green Hall Children's Centre here in Halifax which is in the married couples' quarters of Dalhousie University. It has been around for a long time. That centre is located in the building in which the children live. In the lobby you see parents interacting with their children. Many casual kinds of things happen there. Parents have input through the parent advisory board.
I think that parents should influence child care programs. They should have a voice. Good child care programs must provide expertise about children as groups. The job of a parent is to be the advocate for the child. A parent's child is the most important child in a child care centre. That has to be recognized and understood. We should not try to talk parents out of that of thinking about the group because they need to think about their child as the most important child in the group. I do not know what I would say would be the ideal situation as far as parental involvement in child care centres.
Senator Pearson: I know that in Quebec, by law, they must be involved.
Ms. Ferguson: Yes, the centres are parent-run. The boards are made up of parents. I am not comfortable with that. I believe that there should be parental representation on boards, but I also think that there needs to be community representation and expertise on child development. I mean a child development perspective that does not come from the "my child'' perspective. We need a holistic approach because I feel strongly that we, as communities, bring up children. We have a collective responsibility and we all have roles to play. I think that the child care centre is a place where that collective responsibility can be demonstrated, that is, a place where we can demonstrate what we need as citizens and how we need to live together with respect and dignity.
I started in child care without theoretical training. I had a university education in political science, so that did not help me much, although it may have a bit. However, I had grown up in a Baptist community and I had taught Sunday school and led the explorers. I was always taking care of the children in my community so what I learned from that experience was helpful when I went into the child care centre up in Wolfville in 1970.
I recognized, though, that I needed to know more. I needed to know why things were working. I was a child of the 1960s, so a whole bunch of cultural things affected me. The children taught me a lot. They taught me that it was not up to me to tell them how to change; it was up to me to work with them and facilitate the skills they needed to make decisions and to speak out for themselves. When they made choices, my job was to applaud them for making the choice they did and not to criticize them.
One little girl, Becky, was the most amazing five-year-old girl. Her spirit was strong and free, and she knew who she was. I thought that was just wonderful. That was the kind of woman I wanted to see leading the world. One day she came in wearing a frilly dress and, of course, my face dropped. I was 20 years old at that time so I was still quite idealistic. When I saw her I thought, "Oh, all of the work I have done has gone out the window.'' Then I realized that Becky had the right to choose. It was not up to me to choose. That is an example of the kind of skill that child care professionals need. They need to have modesty, and honour and respect for the children. They should recognize that they have a lot to learn and that children have a lot to teach them. They need to form relationships with the children — relationships in ways that are safe and secure. They should enjoy each other. That is not to say that there will not be times when you have to problem solve together and figure out when people's rights are being imposed on, but you must do it in a respectful way. They also need to know the milestones in child development and what to expect. They should also know how to get help when they do not know what to do.
Senator Oliver: I am interested in global as well as national standards. A section in your paper deals with concepts of standardization, national standards certification, credentials, a national registry, accreditation and finding a way to have best practices apply all across the country and in the territories. Difficulties in standardization apply across the professions, apart from daycare workers. I think of engineers, medical doctors and lawyers. Traditionally and historically, the problem we have had in Canada is that each province wants to maintain the right to regulate and control standards. In the case of law we have a self-administered bar society that sets its own rules and regulations for its members and it sets its own standards. What you are proposing is not the Canadian way.
Given the federal system that we have, that the federal government has a lot of the money and the provinces, under section 92 of the Constitution, have jurisdiction over education and other things. How would you propose that we bring in these standards? Your statement is that regulations are the tools for establishing basic standards and that we must to have these basic standards so that the rights of all children can be protected to the same standard and at the same level. How do we go about doing that?
Ms. Ferguson: I think child care is very Canadian. We are fortunate in the sense that we are very Canadian but we have been marginalized for so long that we have been able to do what we want. Now it is our time in the sun and we are going to make hay. We know it is not going to last, but it is our time in the sun. We have been pulled out of the margins.
Now we have to look at all of the work that we have done. We have a wonderful association, the Canadian Child care Federation, which is a federation of the various child care organizations in the provinces and territories. Their member council and their affiliates have exercised tremendous leadership in developing the standards of practice and the accreditation for early childhood training programs. We are most fortunate in that they have shown leadership in doing that. For instance, here in Nova Scotia, the Nova Scotia Child Care Association has accepted the standards of practice developed by the Canadian Child Care Federation. Organizations across Canada have all been involved in developing those standards of practice.
Senator Oliver: In Nova Scotia if standards of practice are not met by an individual or group, how is that enforced?
Ms. Ferguson: That is the problem. We cannot enforce sanctions because we do not have the infrastructure to meet the legal liability of being the people who enforce sanctions.
We are putting together the pieces of the puzzle to know what we need. We have our 10-year professional development plan in place. However, because we are so under-resourced in child care we do not have the finances to be able to start it up. We have been doing a fair amount of advocacy and lobbying to try to get to the point where we have the seed money to start it. After 10 years we will be self-sufficient because we cannot charge our members $300 to support an organization when they are only making $17,000 a year. It is that kind of an inventive balance. I learned from my mother in our little Baptist community that, if something needs to be done, then get it done. That is how we have done it. I am optimistic. We now have a national code of ethics to which all of the affiliates subscribe. I feel that we are a Canadian organization, too.
Senator Oliver: Touché.
The Chairman: You and I may be the same age because I related to some of the milestones you mentioned. I do know that safety and security was my priority. I wanted to put my child somewhere that was safe and secure. Nutrition was my next consideration. I wanted to know that they would be well fed. In later years, entire child development was the subject of discussion. Should children's behaviour be structured at a young age, or was that counter-productive? That was the international discussion. At that time there was some focus on the Soviet Union where children were directed. There was government-driven daycare. There was also the Swedish model that certainly encouraged involvement.
Now we also have the Quebec model where parents drive the process, that is, they must have a parental role, front and centre.
Who will set the development agenda? Will it be the Canadian government or the Nova Scotia government? Will it be the parents who set it, bearing in mind that some children will not be in regulated daycare? Some children will be in daycare that is an extension of the family and not regulated. Will we have a different standard for children in regulated daycare? Will we be creating two types of children — those who, in the eyes of society, are more advantaged because they received regulated care, and those who may be seen to be less advantaged because they are raised by their parents?
It used to be said that, at six years of age, children were ready to accept a state role and that, up to then, they should have a parental role because that builds trust, empathy, and all of those things. Do you understand the gist of my question?
Ms. Ferguson: Yes.
The Chairman: How do we justify demanding that child care workers apply certain standards when we do not demand that of another segment of society?
I am pleased to hear your comments about a code of ethics. I think professionalism is the link. We presume that parents will do the best for their children. We should have professional standards which set out the level of care that is given by those who look after the children of other people.
Ms. Ferguson: What I enjoy about child care is that there is so much to do, there is always innovation, and there is so much to learn. We are dealing with standards for the practitioner and that is in the form of a code of ethics. We also have to articulate what outcomes we want for our children in Canada. The National Children's Agenda has set out what we, as a society, want for our children. With that, we can build a system of supports as in articles18.2 and 18.3. We can support parents so that they are able to choose where they want their children to grow up and who they want their children to be with.
In child care, many different kinds of models or techniques can be applied. We could adopt the Reggio Emilia emerging curriculum which is exciting and dynamic and incorporates wonderful artwork. We could go to a more cognitive model like High/Scope.
If we know that what we want for our children is that they can optimize their potential and their potential is to be able to have a wonderful life presently and then have all of the possibilities for them in their future, then our standards should reflect what we want for our children. We could phrase those in terms that are not specific to child care. Child care could take societies' outcomes for children and then use various methodologies to make those outcomes happen. That may be a roundabout answer to your question.
The Chairman: It was a roundabout question so we got a roundabout answer.
Ms. Ferguson: I do not think that we can say that one system is better than another. If I had children of my own I would want my mother to spend time with them. Whether she would want to do that or not, I do not know. She raised us. That was a wonderful time to learn respect and to ask all sorts of questions. That will continue to happen. It does not need a curriculum and there need not be a standard.
I really cannot answer your question. I can just talk about what licensed child care or regulated child care needs to do, and it does. We consider what we want for Canada's children, and then we think about how to build that into our programs. Likewise, parents do that, too.
The Chairman: This might be an unfair question, but it follows on what Senator Mercer had said.
The new, Canada-wide program is $5 billion for five years. How much will Nova Scotia receive? You say that you are only accommodating 27 per cent of the potential, although working mothers may be putting the children elsewhere.
Ms. Ferguson: Yes, exactly.
The Chairman: You know that 27 per cent are now using your services. You say that child care workers are underpaid and that the facilities need improvement. You have three major areas of expenditure. This is not a lot of money, in my opinion. Where is your emphasis placed? Is the emphasis on increasing the spaces; on increasing the wages of the workers; or on the quality of space and equipment? Have you worked that out yet?
Ms. Ferguson: After the agreement was signed here in Nova Scotia, I called a colleague of mine, who had a fair amount to do with the QUAD, to thank her for all of the work she had done towards it. I had told her before that just the promise of the money had done amazing things in Nova Scotia.
What has happened there is that resources have been dedicated to examining the complexity of the child care system and looking at all of the pieces that have to be put together in order to make it work for us. I put it down to three things: stabilize the existing system; expand the existing system; and enhance the existing system. To do something in each one of those areas, we will be getting $20 million this year, $18 next year and $30 million the following years. That doubles the child care budget here in Nova Scotia, which is an amazing thing for us.
We need more spaces for children. However, if we do not have practitioners to teach in those spaces, we will have a problem. For parents, we need to keep the costs of child care down, so that it is accessible, because we will be following all of the QUAD principles. We have to figure out how even the poorest parents can have access to child care. It may mean subsidies. We also have to figure out ways that the operating costs can be borne by the child care centre rather than be fees for the parents. That is another area we have to examine.
The You Bet I Care! project across Canada, in 2000 or 2001, found that the majority of child care in Canada is mediocre, which means it is meeting regulations. With the quality and developmental expectation in the QUAD principles, another piece is being added to the responsibilities of our government in Nova Scotia.
The Department of Community Services has always dealt with children who are at risk. As one of the strings on this money, it now has to think about how we can enhance programs. That is a paradigm shift that they have to make. It involves the cross-jurisdictions of health and education. It is a complex area. We could create many spaces but if there are not enough qualified staff to take care of the children, then the spaces will not meet the quality standard. If the cost of the child care is too high, then we would not meet the accessibility provision. As well, if we do not increase the quality, we will not meet the developmental piece. It is an inter-connected, complex system that we are trying to work on.
Our minister has pulled together a working group which has representatives from the child care sector and from his department to work on that, and on a plan. Then we report back, as a sector, to our various members. That is quite exciting.
The Chairman: If you can only supply 27 per cent of necessary spaces, where are those other children today?
Ms. Ferguson: I do not know. There is probably a certain amount of stress on families in that the parents may be working shifts and taking care of the children. For the children, that is not a very good situation to be in. There is a large, informal child care network that probably ranges from fantastic to questionable. I do not know who they are or where they are located. Then we are confounded by the seasonal needs of parents who work on farms or in the fishery. I do not know what child care arrangements they make. That scares me.
The Chairman: Thank you for coming forward with your paper and with your point of view which deals with the provincial level of need. Thank you also for the display which was quite helpful.
Ms. Ferguson: Thank you.
The Chairman: Senators, our nest witness is Mr. George Savoury from the Nova Scotia Family and Children's Services.
Mr. George Savoury, Senior Director, Family and Children's Services, Government of Nova Scotia: Thank you, senator. I very much appreciate the opportunity to appear before you this afternoon. I will introduce my colleagues from the other departments who work on children's services and youth services. Mr. Fred Honsberger is Executive Director of Correctional Services with the Department of Justice; Ms. Linda Smith is the Executive Director of Mental Health, Child Health and Addiction Treatment Services; Mr. Don Glover is a consultant with the Department of Education; and Ms. Ann Power is Director of the Student Services Division with the Department of Education.
I have spent my entire career in the social services field primarily in the area of children's services so it is a pleasure to again be with you. I will be speaking by and large in terms of the Department of Community Services and, at the end, I will be willing to take questions, as will my colleagues, as they relate to their particular areas.
In Community Services in Nova Scotia we provide a range of services that impact on children and these include child protection services, early childhood development services and child care. I was delighted that you had Elaine Ferguson with you for a while this afternoon. We also deal with housing benefits to low-income families and services to support children with disabilities. Today I will give you some information on some new initiatives and we will be pleased to answer questions at the end.
As you are aware, children's services are very complex and we deliver services with many competing demands in our province. We have been fortunate in recent years in that our budgets have managed to increase for children's services. They have grown steadily over the years. We recognize, of course, that we must continue to make improvements, to address gaps, and to do better for our children and youth. I should point out that we deliver our services in partnership with other departments. My colleagues are here today.
We are very proud in Nova Scotia to have established a Child and Youth Action Committee, known as CAYAC which is an inter-departmental committee of senior officials from departments who report to Deputy Ministers. The mandate of the committee is to ensure that we have a coordinated approach to policy development and comprehensive services to children and youth in Nova Scotia. We want CAYAC to be recognized as a vessel that floats and certainly not one that sinks, so we try to promote and facilitate inter-departmental initiatives and we look at and identify barriers that can be stumbling blocks to children getting the right services in our province. We are fortunate in that we work with a large network of community-based organizations which deliver services on behalf of the department including residential facilities, foster families and child welfare agencies.
Since 2001, early childhood development has been an area of significant activity. We signed the first federal- provincial agreement in 2001 and, since then, we have worked to strengthen the foundation of early childhood development and child care programs in our province.
We have tried to enhance prevention programs. We partner with 32 family resource centres that provide parenting programs and supports to families throughout our province. Recently, we expanded our partnership to include a volunteer initiative with the goal of supporting family resource centres. We are quite proud of the fact that we have a total of 1,000 volunteers who are connected to our family resource centres. This year we made a special effort to recognize them for their work. Volunteers are special people, and the work that they do should be recognized.
We provided new grants for the inclusion of preschool children with special needs. Early intervention services have been enhanced to provide early diagnosis and treatment for children with speech and language difficulties. The early childhood development initiative has allowed the creation of an enhanced home visiting program for new parents under the leadership of the Department of Health.
We have also been trying to strengthen our services in the area of quality licensed child care. We believe child care is extremely important, particularly for those who rely on child care to work or to attend school or any post-secondary institution. We recognize that quality child care plays an important role in early childhood development.
Investments have been made to create new child care seats and to increase subsidies for low-income families. We have introduced the concept of portability of subsidies, to ensure that families can move from one location to another and still retain that subsidy. New grants have been introduced to support centres and their staff, including salary and training enhancements, recognizing of course that we have more work to do.
We have introduced new programs to support the inclusion of children with disabilities. Demands for early intervention services are growing, and we want to build on our efforts. In particular, we have an in-home support program that serves families with a disabled child. We recently introduced a similar adult program because we recognize that children do not remain children forever, and that families need supports when their child turns 19 years of age.
We have also worked with the Abilities Foundation and have launched a children's wheelchair recycling program so that we can help families replace their growing child's wheelchair.
Child protection or child welfare services are a cornerstone of the role we play in serving children and families. Child welfare services are about protecting children from abuse and neglect, while making every effort to keep families together.
We deliver these services through six government offices and 14 children's aid societies, all operating under the Children and Family Services Act. The act was revised in 1999 and reflects best practices in child welfare.
We are currently advertising for advisory committee members from the community — parents, legal counsel and others who work in the system — who will report annually to the minister and advise whether the act is meeting the needs of Nova Scotian families.
We are fortunate to be able to rely on the skills of hundreds of highly skilled social workers to provide protective services to families across our province. Social workers make every effort to keep children at home, while working with parents to provide skills and support. Each year there are over 11,000 investigations and about 840 of those involve court proceedings. I think it is quite positive that less than 1 per cent of all of these cases involve apprehending a child from the home. Our act provides that we can enter into voluntary agreements with families so that they may receive support. In addition, families participate in mediation, parenting skills, anger management, addictions treatment and other kinds of counselling programs. We believe these services are helpful to keep families together while attempting to ensure the safety of children. The vast majority of court cases involve asking the court to order mandatory supervision and support while the child remains at home.
I know that your committee is interested in the whole area of children's legal rights. Our act enables children over 12 to have their own legal counsel and/or a guardian ad litem where it is deemed to be in the interests of the child so that their interests are protected.
We also hear directly from youth involved in child welfare. The Nova Scotia Council for the Family advocates for children in care and is a valuable source of information. We also get the youth perspective from The Voice which is a newsletter written and produced by youth in care. I brought along a few copies of their magazine. We provide funding to assist with this publication. It lives up to its name by providing a voice for young people facing the challenge of not being able to live with their biological families.
We recognize the broad spectrum of needs of these children and, two years ago, Nova Scotia opened a secure care centre to provide short-term stabilization for youth in care experiencing a crisis that might result in harm to themselves or to others. The centre has helped limit disruption for the youth by giving the young person the opportunity to work through the crisis and return to his or her community placement.
We are aware of the serious nature of secure services. We have built-in safeguards and we work closely with the courts and lawyers to protect the rights of the child. At the five-day hearing which is for children who are placed in secure care, we provide them with their own legal counsel who they can instruct and who will represent them before the court.
The ombudsman's office visits the secure care centre twice a month. We have an agreement with the ombudsman's office because we want the youth there to have an independent voice and an opportunity to discuss any issues or concerns that they may be experiencing. We receive a monthly report from the ombudsman's office which brings any issues or concerns to our attention.
In an effort to focus on permanency, Nova Scotia recently introduced new standards and procedures that focus on comprehensive planning for all children in care. The central focus of the standards is comprehensive planning for these children so that when a child is coming into our care, particularly in permanent care, we have a well thought-out plan with the input of the child to make sure that the child does not stay in limbo simply because the child has come into our care. We are in the process of reviewing all of our placement services for children to ensure children and youth are in the most appropriate setting for their health, security, safety and development.
Foster care is the primary resource that we use for placement when children come into care. We have introduced several initiatives in recent years to strengthen our foster care system. We have a centralized provincial recruitment 1- 800 telephone service in partnership with the Federation of Foster Families of Nova Scotia; regional foster care resource teams to respond to all foster care inquiries and foster parent training needs within the region; and a comprehensive training program for all foster families in our province. After years of declining numbers of foster families, we are encouraged to see that that trend is reversing with increasing numbers over the past several years.
Although we have made great strides in this area, it is clear that foster care is meant to be a temporary solution, not a long-term living arrangement and that is where adoption comes in. The department has been reviewing the adoption program to find ways to place children for adoption in Nova Scotia. Through our review, we have identified several areas that have helped us to increase the number of adopted children in permanent care. We have held consultations with our staff and with other interested groups such as the Adoptive Parents Association of Nova Scotia, the Federation of Foster Families, and the Nova Scotia Council for the Family to help us improve our adoption program. As a result we have added additional staff and we are working on a province-wide strategy to increase awareness about adoption of children in permanent care.
Last spring the government introduced legislation which was supported by all parties that will allow more children to be adopted. Currently, there are 1,100 young people in permanent care in our province and 500 of those have access orders that would have prevented their adoption. This new legislation makes all children in permanent care eligible for adoption, while preserving the possibility for birth parents or other relatives such as grandparents to continue contact with the young person, if it is in the child's best interests. I need not elaborate on the benefits of children growing up in a permanent family as compared to foster care or residential care.
Other changes in our proposed legislation would enable step-parent and other relative adoptions to proceed without the involvement of government.
In terms of Aboriginal services and diversity, child welfare services in Mi'kmaq communities in Nova Scotia are delivered through our Mi'kmaq Family and Children's Services. We work closely with the agency whose board is comprised of the Chiefs of First Nations communities in our province.
We have a tripartite committee made up of federal, provincial and First Nations that plays a role in supporting this agency and resolving issues and difficulties. This organization has shown tremendous leadership and their staff are trained to provide child welfare services that recognize and respect their culture.
Recognition of diverse cultures is mandated in our act and is reflected, and in fact is required, in case planning. We have a diversity policy in our hiring in an effort to ensure that African Nova Scotians and other communities are represented.
A number of youth are involved in our child welfare system and receive support from our social workers and may reside in foster care, or residential care. We have improved planning in partnership with youth and we focus on adoption because our goal is to have less youth needing child welfare services. There are young people outside our child welfare system, of course, who need additional supports in the community. We work with community organizations to address the complex needs of these youth, including Phoenix House and other groups across the province. In addition, our regional staff have been collaborating with community groups on youth homelessness and have put additional focus on finding solutions.
With regard to the National Child Benefit, we continue our efforts, in partnership with the federal government, to provide supports to low-income families in Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia's Child Benefit is the provincial government's contribution to the National Child Benefit initiative. In 2001 the government of Nova Scotia took a significant step to help these families. Children's benefits were removed from the income assistance system and are now delivered through the Nova Scotia Child Benefit. The Nova Scotia Child Benefit is provided to all low-income families to help them with the cost of raising children under the age of 18. Over 50,000 children in Nova Scotia receive this benefit each year.
We recognize that there is a great deal of work to do to address the issue of child poverty. We believe initiatives like the NCB are important tools, but recognize that many other factors influence this issue. We are committed to working with other government services, all levels of government and the community to improve the situation for low-income families.
As to affordable housing, we look forward to continued improvements in that area through the federal-provincial Affordable Housing Program. To date, more than $19 million has been announced by the federal and provincial governments for the construction or renovation of more than 400 units in our province. With the recent signing of the second phase of the Canada-Nova Scotia Affordable Housing Agreement, the total investment for affordable housing in Nova Scotia now stands at $56.18 million by 2008.
We have a range of services that support the well-being of children and their families in our province. I have given you a brief overview of our programs and initiatives. It is a large and evolving responsibility, and we are committed to our role. We recognize that we need to keep working to improve our services to ensure that families and children can access the support they need to grow and develop successfully.
My colleagues and I look forward to trying to answer your questions. Thank you.
Senator Pearson: Thank you for that overview of all the different components. I admire the aims of the CAYAC. I believe it is the model that all provinces will adopt. I do know that Manitoba has a similar model.
Mr. Savoury: It does.
Senator Pearson: I believe that Ontario is moving in that direction now under the direction of the new Ministry of Children and Family Development. I think that a cross-ministerial approach is a more holistic and more efficient response to children's needs. One aspect feeds into another.
You talked about legislation which allows you to take a child into care for five days. Is that somewhat similar to the legislation in Alberta called the PChIP? Are you talking about children who are taken from the street, or are you talking about children in the welfare system?
Mr. Savoury: The five days refers to the fact that we must have a court hearing within that time respecting any of our child welfare proceedings, including those related to youth who may need to be placed in a secure setting. They would be children who are already in the care of the ministry. They may be on the street and of course still in our care. Running might be one of the problems that is being exhibited.
Senator Pearson: It is not focused on young people who are being exploited in the sex trade.
Mr. Savoury: That is correct. Inappropriate sexual activity could be one of the behaviours that prompted the social worker to make a referral for secure care. Generally it is for 30 days. In our province the tendency has been to get rulings that provide for a shorter period of time, which we believe makes sense because these children have not committed an offence but they do need a period of stabilization.
Senator Pearson: My next question concerns foster care and the use of the model of looking after children. Is that the model used here?
Mr. Savoury: Yes.
Senator Pearson: I think it is in most of the Maritimes.
Mr. Savoury: Exactly.
Senator Pearson: It has proven to be an effective model that involves the young people having a say in what is happening to them.
Mr. Savoury: Yes.
Senator Pearson: I am excited to hear about your moving towards increasing the number of adoptions and changing the legislation to make that possible. A child's right to a permanent environment, a child's right to a home, a child's right to a family, whichever way you describe it, was frequently interfered with by legislation that made it impossible to put the child into a permanent environment.
Children have told me, "Telling me that I cannot be adopted means that I have no right to a family,'' which is a pretty powerful message. I am happy to see you moving in that direction.
Mr. Savoury: Thank you for your comments. Dr. Kathleen Kufeldt, who you probably know, provided a lot of national leadership on adoption. We believe that, if there is not a mandate and a strong expectation that, when children are placed in care, there be a plan that includes the input of the child and looks to the child's best interests, which can often be adoption, we are doing a major disservice. We have seen access orders being made and, for various reasons, not being exercised. Yet, some of these children would have loved to have been adopted. In some foster homes where there are three or four children in care, when a couple of them are adopted, it is not uncommon for the other children there to say, "How come I cannot be adopted?''
We are being assertive and we expect full support. We have additional adoption staff and we want this to be a success because it will be a success for these children.
Senator Pearson: That is very exciting. I think permanency planning is most important. Some children have been in as many as 16 placements. It is a total travesty, to say nothing of the fact that it does not work. It sometimes happens because the birth parents have not adequately relinquished, and they go back and forth; home and back; and so on. I commend your reaction to protect the rights of children.
Today someone raised the issue of the age gap between 16 and 18 and coverage. Who wants to take that one on?
Mr. Savoury: My colleagues may want to comment after I make a few remarks. Across the country, as you know, there is a variation in the definition of a child. In our province, as in a number of others, the age is 16. We included a provision in our act to enable us to provide some supports to children aged 16 to 18. It is an area that we have identified as a priority. Not all 17 year olds want to be part of our child welfare system, but they may have dropped out of school for various reasons or maybe have addictions or mental health issues and they need support.
This week I met with a young man who is involved in producing this newsletter. He shares similar experiences with youth who do not fit in or who, in fact, have done well in the school system but now recognize that they need to have the equivalency, at least, of high school to get a job. These young people are taught coaching skills, resumé writing and other things. However, I think we have a much bigger job to do in that area.
It is an area on which CAYAC has focused. CAYAC produced a report several years ago. We now provide supports through our mental health system. Some of these young people are still in the school system and some receive income assistance. However, I think it is one area where we need a better strategy. CAYAC has created a culture of no surprises amongst us. It is easy for us to do planning and policy work that may have negative impacts on any government department and, ultimately, on youth or children, but CAYAC has been holding all of us accountable for what we do.
Senator Pearson: Some of the young people I have spoken with would like a mentor. Sometimes it is not the services that are so important; it is having somebody consistently in their lives during that transitional period. The issue of transition is an important one. I know that the Big Brothers and the Big Sisters organizations are expanding their capacity for mentorship, which I highly commend.
My final question concerns sports. You did not mention what role the government is playing in sponsoring children or in providing or developing facilities. I recognize there is some municipal involvement. We all recognize the importance of physical activity for kids for a whole variety of reasons.
Mr. Savoury: My colleague, Linda Smith is keyed up to comment on the 16 to 18 year olds. I will come back to sports.
Ms. Linda Smith, Executive Director, Mental Health, Child Health and Addiction Treatment Services, Department of Health, Government of Nova Scotia: The Department of Health does not develop its services based on age, as it were. We develop them across a lifespan. Having said that, we consider 19 to be the cut-off for children and youth, particularly for mental health services. That also includes our mental health forensic services that are linked to our Department of Justice.
There are challenges for a 16 to 19 year-old when trying to access some support services in the community where there is no age consistency.
Along with CAYAC we have a committee that is chaired by the Deputy Ministers of Community Services and Health where we are looking at lining up our policies so that there is more of a seamless system between the two. We have formed four regional networks in the province to work on that. We acknowledge it as a challenge, but I am optimistic that we are moving in that direction.
On the subject of sports, the Department of Health has a separate ministry called the Office of Health Promotion which focuses on sport, physical activity and healthy eating. Physical activity is a key issue on which they focus, and that is leading into partnerships with the Department of Education.
Ms. Ann Power, Director, Student Services Division, Department of Education, Government of Nova Scotia: Transition has been a major concern of the Department of Education as well as other departments. We recently re- established a provincial transition committee that Don sits on. That committee is made up of a variety of agencies and departments that look at the particular issues of transition for youth, be it at 16, 17 or 18. We are establishing some pilots to try out more facilitated transitions so that youth can have job coaches and mentors, so that they have a more flexible transition to the workplace and to post-secondary education. Rather than just saying, "Now that you have graduated, you have to leave,'' we tell them that they can go back for another year and pick up some extra courses.
For certain students, particularly those with disabilities who are on individualized program plans, we may recommend that they have some job skills built into their plan. They may need to practise in the workplace and then go back to school and work on the theoretical aspect, and then go back to the practical side. Agencies are involved in supporting children and youth as they move forward into our communities. We are excited because so many agencies are involved and there is so much promise for those youth.
Senator Mercer: As one of the founding members and a former vice-president of the Adoptive Parents' Association of Nova Scotia, I was pleased to see that you consult with that association and other interested groups about adoption. I welcome that approach and I hope that you consult other agencies such as the Home of the Guardian Angel and others that have been involved for many years in the promotion of adoption in Nova Scotia.
I have always been concerned — and I am probably even more concerned today than I was almost 25 years ago when my wife and I adopted our son — that the adoption option is not put forward early enough in two areas: first, in the case of teen pregnancies and, second, in the case of children going into foster care. Sometimes we wait a fair amount of time before the option is put forward. In the case of teen pregnancies I worry that it is too easy to go the route of abortion as opposed to choosing the option of carrying the child to term. There is no question that there is a long list of people waiting to adopt, particularly infants. I am interested in hearing your comment on that.
You talked about being assertive. Perhaps you could clarify that for me.
Mr. Savoury: Let me respond to the question of sports. Many of our youth who come into care for various reasons will want to participate in sports. We believe that is extremely important because they can learn a lot from that. They meet new friends and they can learn team skills. They can also benefit from coaching. They learn that there are rules. We support youth sports. As many of you who have been involved in sports will know, you learn to be humble when you are not sure what to do in a particular sport. I tried my hand at sailing a few years ago and I learned humility.
We have become passionate about adoption. When our Deputy Minister, Marion Tyson, came to our department, she took it upon herself to make adoptions a priority because she did not want to see children who were available for adoption or who should be available for adoption left in our care. We ended up with an adoption project, part of which involved consulting with organizations. We have had a number of meetings with the Home of the Guardian Angel recently, and they have demonstrated a lot of insight and wisdom. In particular, they have made it clear to us that adoption is to be made attractive, that it is a lifelong experience, and that you need to provide support beyond the placement of the child. The Home of the Guardian Angel has been involved in this business for many years and they know families and children who have been adopted will come back looking for information and/or support. We are working with them and considering how we can strengthen that area in our province.
As to presenting the options to pregnant teenagers, our staff are trained to put forward adoption as an option, and I believe that is being done. The number of infants, however, available for adoption, has decreased dramatically, not only in Nova Scotia but probably throughout North America. However, youth still come forward and ponder and reflect on adoption, and we do a number of things that I think makes it more attractive. For example, we present them with information on multiple families so that they can have some input into selecting the family for the child. Of course, the identifying information is not there. We are doing things like that to make adoption a more attractive option. Those who have gone through that realize that there are some fantastic families out there with a lot of strengths who have adopted before, and who love to raise children. We also provide for sharing of information on, say, birthdays, and some adoptive families are open to more contact as well. We are trying to do some creative things in that area as well.
With respect to our assertiveness, we have established a project. We amended our legislation. Access orders were provided with all good intentions but they did not take into account the long-term future of these children in that they could end up staying in care forever. That is why we amended the legislation. We were pleased that all parties supported that amendment.
We have increased our adoption staff. We have made improvements to our information technology system. We believe that, in many systems, people do not have the information they need. There may be, say, five children in permanent care and social histories need to be drawn up on those children because nobody will adopt them without background information. Staff in one location may have taken a child into care, and adoption staff in another location may have done the adoption home study. Adoptive parents may be waiting. We are dealing with that. We have the information. We know where the children are and we are saying that what is happening is unacceptable.
We also do subsidized adoptions. Some children coming into our care today have a difficult background and they may need ongoing counselling, therapy, some technological equipment, et cetera. They may need special supports in the school system such as tutoring.
When we look at what it can cost for one child in residential care and what we would provide for some families who probably could not adopt without additional support, the numbers speak for themselves. I have just recently read the background on two children who will be placed this weekend, a two year old and a six year old, and those children have probably been in three or four placements already. Forget the cost. The difference that this will make in the lives of these two young girls will be phenomenal. We are determined that we will not have children who can be adopted sitting in foster care.
Senator Oliver: I have three very brief questions arising from your presentation. My first question relates to your comments on page 10 where you say that children's legal rights are a focus. You state that children over 12 years are provided with their own legal counsel. I am surprised that you are still sticking with the age of 12, because the age of intellection, so-called, has been met for a long time, and today kids are learning a lot faster. They are exposed to computers and information technology, so they have access to more information at a younger age. That being the case, I would have thought the age would have gone down to eight or nine. Why did you pick such a high age?
The second question relates to page 15 where you mention grandparents. You say that the new legislation makes all children in permanent care eligible for adoption, and you give rights to grandparents. When we were in New Brunswick our witnesses talked about who has the burden to prove that it is in the child's best interests. Do grandparents have to prove that they have a right to see their grandchildren or not? Who has that burden here in Nova Scotia? As you know, it is a major issue in New Brunswick.
My third question relates to the diversity policy in your hiring referred to on page 16. What are the statistics? If 15 per cent of Canada's population today are visible minorities, what percentage of visible minorities do you hire? You mention an effort to ensure that African Nova Scotians and other communities are represented. What percentage are African Nova Scotians in your workforce and, in particular, in your senior executive workforce in your department?
Mr. Savoury: I will comment on your question regarding age of intellection. Our act is based in 1991.
Senator Oliver: You said it was revised in 1999.
Mr. Savoury: Yes, we revised the access provision and made some other minor amendments over the years, but our act was passed in 1991.
Senator Oliver: This is 2005.
Mr. Savoury: It has been around for a fair length of time. When it was first passed, I know that legal counsel, social workers and policy experts were very much involved in the drafting of the bill. At that time "12'' was the age that was chosen. I am sure they examined the legislation in other jurisdictions, which sometimes may not be the wisest thing to do, and borrowed from other provinces. I would agree with your comments. However, I would add that, even though we stipulate 12 years of age, the provision of a guardian ad litem is often made where the courts are concerned that the child's best interests and his or her ability to instruct counsel is an issue. Despite the provision of 12 years of age, children still have a meaningful opportunity to have input into the plan.
I am not saying that we should not consider lowering that number because of children's advances in development, but I cannot imagine that we would go forward with a plan that they felt was totally opposed to their best interests, even if the child were six years of age. You mentioned eight or nine.
The issue of access by grandparents is a difficult one. Grandparents recently appeared before the legislature's Community Services Committee that is made up of all parties and I know they have repeatedly communicated with elected officials in our province. It is difficult and, I would say, stressful for grandparents who are attached to a grandchild and, because of a separation or a divorce, have no or limited contact. It is equally stressful for the children. In my experience, most of those situations occur because of divorce proceedings.
Our Children and Family Services Act requires that we always consider relatives as our first place placement for children as opposed to foster care or residential care. We have grandparents in our province who are looking after children in our care. I cannot imagine either our staff or the courts looking other than favourably upon responsible grandparents looking after grandchildren where the children are their primary interest and they want to play a role in raising them. Similarly, even if they do not want to play the parenting role, we would not be opposed to them having ongoing contact with children in our care.
With respect to your final question, I wish I had those figures for you. I have made a note of your question and will try and find the number of employees in the Nova Scotia Public Service that represent various communities.
Senator Oliver: I have those numbers. I wanted to know the percentage in your department.
Mr. Savoury: I do not have them for the department, but I could ask our HR folks to get that and I would be most willing to share that information with you.
Senator Oliver: As a general statement, can you tell me if diversity is a fact of life in your department? Do Aboriginals and Blacks from Nova Scotia hold senior positions in your department?
Mr. Savoury: Ann will answer and I will let the other staff speak to their departments.
We do have African Nova Scotians in management positions. We have some representation at the senior management level. We hold ongoing meetings with the Association of Black Social Workers and with the Dalhousie School of Social Work to look at ways to encourage and support diversity in our department. Our Public Service Commission is assertive. In fact, yesterday I saw the presentation of the diversity coordinator with the Public Service Commission and I can tell you that this whole area will be part of the performance management for and including Deputy Ministers in the department. On this Monday coming a full day session will be held for all Deputy Ministers and Assistant Deputy Ministers on the unveiling of this plan and its requirements.
The Chairman: You have given us a thorough review of Children's Services and your mandates.
We are studying the international obligations in regard to the rights and freedoms of children and, particularly, the Convention of the Rights of the Child. That is not highlighted in your report. I would like a candid answer about whether, in fact, you utilize the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Do you feel bound by it? Do you take it into account when you prepare your policies and your draft legislation? Is it a guideline or do you look at it rather sporadically because it has not been top of the agenda? I notice you have the little book, the famous "little book.'' I am not talking about A Canada Fit for Children; I am talking about the Convention on the Rights of the Child.
Mr. Savoury: There is a requirement for us to report periodically on how well we are doing or not doing. In addition, we look to the agreement to see how we are doing. For example, we talked a about the rights of children to legal counsel and their voice to be heard. Obviously we believe we are doing the right things in our province. Are we doing all that we would like to be able to do? No. I would say that we very much look at the agreement and it is the subject of discussion amongst our colleagues.
I am on the Board of Directors of the Child Welfare League of Canada, and I know Peter Dudding appeared before your committee. All of the provinces are represented on that national board. We discuss areas where improvements can be made or where there are concerns, so I would have to say yes, we do take it into account.
The Chairman: I know you cannot speak for the political arm, but do you take it as a binding document as you would the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, or do you consider it to be a guideline? How do you utilize it?
Ms. Power: I will ask Don to respond because he has the document in front of him. It is one of the foundations of our main policy for working with children, particularly children in need, children who are considered at risk, children with special needs.
Mr. Don Glover, Consultant, Student Services Division, Department of Education, Government of Nova Scotia: The guiding principles of our policy in terms of working with children at risk and children with special needs speak to an appropriate education, speak to an inclusive education, speak to collaboration and consultation with parents, and of tenets of the convention. The policy with that framework was reviewed in 2000, and certainly the issue was raised of continuing to align our action with those policies.
Of late we have been addressing the role of the family. We have been looking at supporting parents to be more effective members of program planning, and to be involved in the basic education and literacy of their children. We have been looking at what we mean by an "appropriate education,'' and focusing on literacy and numeracy as they relate to one's role as a citizen.
The issue of alleviation of poverty has also been a major item of discussion. The Nova Scotia School Boards Association has been addressing childhood poverty. You might be interested in some of the work that they are doing here in the province.
Mr. Savoury: I am very aware of the debate about how you make the convention more binding. I have had a chance to read some of the background debate that is coming in from different sectors. Your question is an interesting one, that is, do we view it in the same way as we view the Charter. I would have to say that we take it very seriously. The Charter is certainly significant in any decisions we make. I know when we develop legislation or practices, we work with our legal counsel and we are always conscious of ensuring that any proposal conforms to the Charter. As you can imagine we hear representations from organizations, for example, on the release of adoption information, and folks will ask whether what we are doing is in conformity with the international convention.
Similarly we have 75 international adoptions a year, most of them children from China and we constantly have discussions about whether we should sign an agreement with a particular country. We always look to the practices in that country and assess whether it is a country with which we would want to have an agreement because of certain practices that may be going on there.
I can only say that we look to the convention when we look at policy and/or programs, to see if in fact we are measuring up. There is a fair range within the convention and one could get a debate as to whether a particular statute truly satisfies the convention. Some may say that it does, and others may say that it does not.
The Chairman: The convention has a provision that youth in conflict with the law must be housed at all stages separate from adults. However, Canada had a reservation about that, stating that, wherever practicable, we would house them separately but that there would be times when they would be housed with adults.
Mr. Honsberger, in Nova Scotia, have youth been housed with adults since the convention was ratified in 1991?
Mr. Fred Honsberger, Executive Director, Correctional Services, Department of Justice, Government of Nova Scotia: The rule in Nova Scotia and across Canada is that they are kept separate and apart in remand accommodation. They are in separate facilities. There is no connection. In lock-up custody, that is when someone is arrested right off the street, the police agencies, since it is a municipal responsibility, have made provision for separate and apart accommodation. They would be in separate parts of the same floor in the same building. That only makes sense in lock-up accommodation. Again, that is a fresh arrest situation.
In sentenced custody, there are separate buildings. In Nova Scotia, those buildings are not connected.
The Chairman: In one of the other jurisdictions we heard that, because of overcrowding in an adult facility inmates were moved, although they tried to keep adults and youths physically separate. However, the same workers would work an adult shift and then would go and work a youth shift. Has that happened in Nova Scotia in recent times?
Mr. Honsberger: No, it has not happened at all.
Senator Pearson: The education question that was asked was to confirm what we heard earlier today about the incorporation of the convention into the school curriculum. We heard that this was being done in Nova Scotia and that was exciting news. Can you confirm that that is the case?
Ms. Power: That question is slightly different from the one I answered before. The previous question had to do with whether we based our policies and the development of our policies on the convention We look at the UN convention and then we consider the Charter and we build from those.
As to the question of whether it is incorporated into the curriculum, my understanding is that we do build it through the curriculum in various aspects at various stages at the various levels. In many schools, for instance, you will see posters about the rights of the child and the Convention on the Rights of the Child. It is built in at a more sophisticated level as you move on up through our personal development and relations courses, career and life management courses and so on.
Senator Pearson: From what I understand about what you are doing in Nova Scotia, partly in association with the University of Cape Breton, it is a model. It is exciting that this is in place.
Ms. Power: It is a specific project in and of itself. I understand what you are saying now.
Senator Pearson: That is good news.
Mr. Honsberger, my question really was about the new Youth Criminal Justice Act. Is it number of kids that you are taking into custody diminishing?
Mr. Honsberger: We have about a 50 per cent reduction in custody in Nova Scotia, a 19 per cent reduction in probation services, and even our restorative justice is down about 13 per cent. The reason for all of that is that there has been a push-down, if you will, because of the act. The police can take several more steps.
Having said that, there is a concern that we have pushed it down too far, and our government is lobbying to have that situation examined because about 2 per cent of the youth population is out of control. They require support and attention. We use the metaphor of the person heading towards the drain before they start down the vortex. With the YOA and with the Juvenile Delinquents Act, as bad as it was in some respects, you could pluck that person out, give them time-out, away from their parents, which in some cases was not good, away from their peer group and the community, and give them a chance to reflect and access support programs. That is the 2 per cent that we are not getting at. That is a worry right now.
The Chairman: Having been a juvenile delinquent court judge, it is interesting to hear how the new system is working. I appreciate the point you are making. I think it is a good alert. Some of us sat at the table when the Young Offenders' Act was being passed, and we know what can happen to youth justice. If it is going to go off the rails somewhere, as all legislation does, we should address it as quickly as possible. I appreciate the comment you made.
I would thank all of you for appearing before our committee as a team. We have learned a lot about the application of children's rights and issues involving children in Nova Scotia. We very much appreciate your input. In turn, we hope our presence here has highlighted the convention as an important document that is the responsibility of provinces and the federal government.
On behalf of Senator Pearson and myself, I would thank our Nova Scotia representation here, Senators Oliver and Mercer. They brought a local understanding to the issues and questions.
On behalf of the committee, I would thank all Nova Scotians for their presentations here today.
This closes our Atlantic hearings. Our study has become much more involved than we thought it originally would be. We now realize that there has not been an overall look at children from a Canadian perspective. We have examined education and we have examined juvenile justice, and so on. In this particular study we are examining the application of the Convention on the Rights of the Child. We hope to complete our report as early as possibly in the fall. However, we have already come to the conclusion that we need to continue to study some of these areas, so no doubt we will be back to you.
The committee adjourned.