Proceedings of the Standing Committee on
Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration
Issue 2 - Evidence for March 10, 2005
OTTAWA, Thursday, March 10, 2005
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration met this day at 8:30 a.m., in camera, to consider administrative and other matters.
Senator George J. Furey (Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
At 8:55 a.m., the committee continued in public.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, we will hear from Senator Harb on a request for travel to Chile.
Senator Harb: An invitation was sent to Senator Hays from his Chilean counterpart with regard to a conference dealing with science, technology and business, which will be held in Chile on the 21st to the 24th. As I have a background in engineering, as do some of my colleagues, it piqued my curiosity. I thought it would be important for the Senate to be represented in some capacity, so I decided to submit my name. If other senators are interested in participating in this conference, I would be happy to defer to them.
It is important for us to participate in this conference for a number of reasons, one being that we do have a free trade agreement with Chile. Also, we put a lot of emphasis on science and technology and have huge potential in the field. As well, colleagues from the other chamber may or may not be participating in this, and I thought it worthwhile for the Senate to be represented by at least one or two senators, or more if that is the desire.
I am aware of the policy that allows travel only in certain circumstances, which is why I made my presentation to you in a letter. I appeal to you to consider that the money could come from the budget allocated to senators through their own travel points, meaning that it would not create a further burden on the Senate budgetary system.
Senator Massicotte: All of these things should be considered in light of the public interest. Could you describe it a bit more? What is this conference and why should Canadians fund your expenses to attend it?
Senator Harb: First, an invitation was sent to senators by Senator Hays. If Senator Hays did not consider it sufficiently important to send the invitation to senators, he would not have done so. He obviously considered it an important matter as he communicated with all senators about it.
The conference deals with science and technology and will take place in Chile. We should be there. If we do not attend, it may be noticed that, despite an invitation, the Canadian Parliament decided not to send a representative.
Senator Massicotte: Who is invited? How many peoplewill be there? Is it a conference of parliamentarians only,or will 10,000 people be there?
Senator Harb: I thought that I would first find out if there is interest in having a senator participate and then determine what role, if any, we could play at the conference. I assure committee members that if the Senate were too approve this proposal in principle and I was to then find out that there is no specific role there for a senator, I would not be interested in participating. I still have some work to do before I make the decision on whether to participate. I thought it would be counterproductive to do that work and then find out that the Senate may not approve the travel.
Senator Massicotte: Such travel is paid for from the travel points system. Are the expenses allocated to the senator's budget or is it a separate category?
Mr. Paul Bélisle, Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Committee: It is allocated to the senator's budget.
Senator Massicotte: How about the conference costs and meal costs?
Ms. Hélène Lavoie, Director of Finance: That would all be part of the cost of the trip.
Senator Massicotte: Is the trip allocated to the senator's budget or is it a separate category?
Ms. Lavoie: No, to the travel budget.
Senator Massicotte: So the statutory part. It removes his points, but it does not affect his $141,000 budget.
What about conference costs? Are the conference costs in the senator's budget?
Ms. Lavoie: Normally, conference fees would be charged to the global budget.
Mr. Bélisle: The reason I hesitated to answer is that many years ago I believe there used to be an allotment of funds for international travel? No? There was no $40,000?
Senator Di Nino: Yes, there was. We had specific limits.
Mr. Chairman, my problem is that we receive these requests on a regular basis. A number of them should be considered, and I think the Senate should be represented.
We cannot consider Senator Harb's request until we have all the information. Senator Massicotte asked a question: What is the public benefit? It is important to discuss this proposal openly, in a public meeting, so that we can say this is the invitation, this is what is being discussed, these are the people in attendance, this is the agenda, this is the approximate participation and this is the cost.
We need a budget. If the trip is to cost $40,000, that is one issue; if it is to cost $4,000, that is another matter. Before we consider this request specifically, we need all of that information.
The Chairman: Senator Harb, to build on what Senator Di Nino said, you are essentially asking for a conditional acceptance.
Senator Harb: Exactly.
I just found out yesterday that the committee would be willing to consider it. I was expecting a positive no, based on what I know from past experience. Having seen that there is a conditional maybe allows me to explore the matter further.
With your permission, Mr. Chairman, it is my hope that you will defer the request. If you were to approve it in principle based on a follow-up report that I would bring to you, that would be quite acceptable. I am not here to ask for blanket approval because, frankly, we are all busy and have many things to do.
Knowing that there is a possible positive response, I will do the necessary follow-up work and come back to the committee.
Senator Di Nino: I cannot, in good conscience, say that there is a positive response. Right now, I have no opinion. I do not think we have the information to make the decision.
Senator Day: I think that we can agree that we positively will not say no.
Senator Smith: The restoration of international travel is very recent. In the early days, a culture developed surrounding the implementation of guidelines. It was good to restore international travel, but to justify to the public the expenditure of tax dollars, there must be a compelling prima facie case. I have not heard one this morning. That is not to say that one does not exist, but there must be a prima facie case before we routinely agree to proposal such as this. If Senator Harb is suggesting that this matter be put over until he has done his due diligence and made his case, as a courtesy, that would be very reasonable.
The Chairman: If you are agreeable, Senator Harb, we will defer the request.
Senator Harb: I think so. I may come back and ask you not to spend any extra time on it.
Senator Massicotte: On that note, we have an application before us, I gather, because Senator Keon filled one out. We should probably get one for Senator Harb, but I would amend the application to add a question asking what would be the public interest in approving these funds.
Also, we should clarify for the purpose of budget estimates that these funds are allocated from the senators' global budgets, because people may think this is someone else's money and that it is not coming from their global budgets. We should ask the following questions: What is the public interest? Why should the public fund this expense?
The Chairman: We would add a line F.
Senator Massicotte: On issue of budget estimates, it must be made clear to the senator filling out the form that this money comes from his budget — the conference cost. We must make sure that there is a bit of discipline.
The Chairman: We will amend the application form to reflect that. Are there any objections, senators?
The decision of the committee is that we will defer this matter until we hear back from Senator Harb.
Senator Keon: Honourable senators, I have been invited by Bill Gates to attend his annual health summit. There will be 100 people in attendance. I will read a list of those individuals who have accepted so far.
The summit will consist of four plenary sessions. The first is entitled ``The Promise of Science;'' the second, ``Impact on Health Care and Personal Health;'' the third, Impact on Public Health;'' and the fourth, ``Science, Health and Economic Growth.'' The intent is to look at health from a global perspective and try to be out front of some of the major health issues that are surfacing from a global perspective.
People who have accepted so far are Louis Burns, Vice-President and General Manager of the Digital Health Group at Intel; Sir William Castell, President and CEO of GE Healthcare; Molly Coye, CEO of the Health Technology Center; Bill Gates; Lee Hartwell, President and Director of the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center; Fuchu He, from the Chinese Academy of Sciences; Gary Kaplan, Chairman and CEO of Virginia Mason Medical Center; Richard Klausner, Executive Director of Global Health; Kiyoshi Kurokawa, President of the Science Council of Japan; David Lawrence, retired Chairman and CEO of Kaiser Permanente; J.W. Lee, Director-General of the World Health Organization; Edison Liu, Executive Director of the Genome Institute of Singapore; Yusuke Nakamura, Director of the Human Genome Center, University of Tokyo; Koji Omi, former science and technology minister of Japan; Uwe Reinhardt, professor at Princeton University; George Russell, Chairman of the Russell Family Foundation; Andrew von Eschenbach, Director of the National Cancer Institute of America; and Elias Zerhouni, Director of the National Institutes of Health in Washington.
My intent was to use my own travel points to fly to Vancouver, rent a car and drive to Seattle. My request is to pull money from somewhere to pay for the car rental, hotel accommodations for three to four days, and meals. The total is about $1,800 Canadian.
The Chairman: If I am hearing you correctly, Senator Keon, you are looking for expenses from Vancouver to Seattle, not from Ottawa to Seattle.
Senator Keon: No, I can fly from Ottawa to Vancouver on my own travel points. My wife will be with me. I attended this event two years ago.
The Chairman: For the record, so there is total clarification, your wife will be with you at your own expense.
Senator Keon: Correct. I just wanted to make it clear that she is coming with me.
The Chairman: For the record, for your sake, Senator Keon, we should put on the record that it would be at your expense.
Senator Keon: Correct.
Senator Prud'homme: Why do you say wife would be at your own expense? If I understand, Dr. Keon can travel from here to Vancouver on his points system with his wife.
The Chairman: That is correct.
Senator Prud'homme: If he rents a car alone or with two people, it is not much expense. It looks like it is a big expense because the spouse may be there. The major portion of the expense is covered by the points system. Am I right in my interpretation?
The Chairman: I believe so, but we will defer to Ms. Lavoie.
Senator Prud'homme: I never use it because I have no spouse.
The Chairman: I think you are right, Senator Prud'homme, but I will ask Ms. Lavoie to reply. I think what Senator Keon was clarifying was that beyond Vancouver, any expenses for his wife would be at his own cost.
Senator Massicotte: Regarding Senate business, is there not a general clause regarding 50 per cent?
Ms. Lavoie: With respect to travel within Canada, the senator's designated traveller is allowed to travel to Vancouver on the point system and all costs are covered. It would only be any incremental meal costs. If the hotel cost is any more expensive because there are two persons, then that difference would be at the senator's own expense. That is all.
Senator Prud'homme: It is an upgrade. I always understood that the 64 points would cover the designated person. In my case, it is my sister. I have never done it, but I want to clarify this point. Technically speaking, the senator can fly to Vancouver business class with his wife using two points.
Ms. Lavoie: Yes.
Senator Prud'homme: This covers hotels and it is good for four days.
Senator Di Nino: Senator Keon has raised a very good point we had not considered. It would be important for the purposes of transparency to state whether a senator is to be accompanied by a spouse or a partner and state that they would not represent any additional cost to the Senate. I think that is a good point to put on the application form so that there are no questions. We want clarity and transparency.
The other point to be made — and I believe that this is the kind of initiative we should be encouraging — is that Senator Keon was personally invited. It was not a general invitation to everyone. There is a good explanation of what the initiative is all about. There is an impressive list of participants. We have a budget, and I think it is an expense that we should incur.
To finish off Senator Massicotte's question, perhaps Senator Keon could place on the record how the public would benefit.
Senator Keon: Yes, I am happy to have an opportunity to do that. There is a significant public benefit. There is no question that this summit represents an opportunity for me to attain tremendous intellectual enrichment. I am immersed in the Social Affairs Committee, and we are currently studying mental health. Canada has a big problem with primary care, particularly the application of technology. I am meeting tonight in Toronto with a group of Americans who have technology that is far superior to anything in Canada as it relates to ``wiring'' primary care. Sometimes we can bring tremendous benefit to the public by participating in this type of event.
All my life I have had the great privilege of being able to attend this summit. Usually, when I have been invited in the past, they paid my expenses and my wife's. I guess now that I am not at the Heart Institute and they are writing to Senator Keon, they think I am rich.
Senator Cook: I want to go on the record as saying that I support this application, and I am speaking not as a member of this committee but a member of the Social Affairs Committee. The Social Affairs Committee is conducting intense studies on the health and well-being of Canadians.
I perked up when Senator Keon said ``public health.'' With the new emerging public health agency and with all the other issues that we have to deal with, the more learned people we can hear from — and, yes, the more learned people who can help us — will serve us well. I speak in support of this application.
Senator Di Nino: I have a comment and question. The comment deals with Senator Keon's humility. The honourable senator is highly respected around the world in his field. Not only will he bring information back with him, but I suspect that he will also leave something there as a contribution to this conference. The question is, Senator Keon, will you be making a report to the Senate on your trip?
Senator Keon: Yes, that is understood.
The Chairman: I think that is a requirement in the policy.
Senator Massicotte: I propose acceptance of this application.
The Chairman: Before we make a decision on the acceptance, and as a convenience to Senator Keon as a member of the committee, we will deal with the remaining items on the agenda and ask Senator Keon to leave. We will make a decision and inform him in due course.
The committee continued in camera.