Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 1 - Evidence - Meeting of October 13, 2004
OTTAWA, Wednesday, October 13, 2004
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 2 p.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[Translation]
Ms. Gaëtane Lemay, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, I welcome you to this first meeting of the Senate Standing Committee on Official Languages. I am the new clerk of this committee and it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair.
[English]
As clerk of your committee, I am ready to receive a motion to that effect. Are there any nominations?
[Translation]
Senator Gauthier: I nominate the Honourable Senator Corbin as chairman of the committee.
Ms. Lemay: Are there any other nominations?
Hon. Senators: No.
Ms. Lemay: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Gauthier that the Honourable Senator Corbin be the chairman of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Lemay: I declare the motion carried. I would invite Senator Corbin to take the chair, please.
Senator Eymard G. Corbin (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Dear colleagues, I thank you for the honour you have bestowed on me. I particularly want to thank Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier, who will unfortunately be leaving us soon. But I am sure that for the time remaining, he will continue to work on the issues of concern to him, as he has always done.
I will now entertain motions for the election of the deputy chair.
[English]
Senator Keon: I nominate Senator Buchanan.
[Translation]
The Chairman: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Keon that the Honourable Senator Buchanan be the deputy chair the committee.
[English]
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
[Translation]
The motion is agreed to.
Item No. 3 concerns the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. Would someone like to move that motion?
It is moved by Senator Chaput that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair, and one other member of the committee to be designated later, and that the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and schedule hearings.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: If you would like to discuss it, I will slow down; otherwise, the motion carries.
Item No. 4 concerns printing the proceedings of the committee. Will someone move it?
It is moved by Senator Léger that the committee print its proceedings and that the chair be authorized to set this number to meet demand. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried.
[English]
Next is Item No. 5, authorization to hold meetings and to print evidence when a quorum is not present. Will someone move that motion?
Senator Keon: I so move.
The Chairman: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Keon:
That, pursuant to Rule 89, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the Committee of the government and the opposition be present.
[Translation]
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
The motion is agreed to.
Under Item No. 6, I will entertain a motion to adopt the financial report.
Senator Léger moves that the committee adopt the draft first report, prepared in accordance with rule 104. I think you have that report in hand.
You may take a moment to read it. If there are no comments or questions, I declare the motion carried.
Item No. 7: Research staff. It is moved by Senator Chaput that the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research analysts to the committee.
[English]
The rest of the motion reads:
That the Chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the Committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject matters of bills and estimates as are referred to it.
[Translation]
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
Senator Prud'homme: I would like to take advantage of my presence at this committee to discuss something that is related to how I might proceed in another committee I sit on. You say that the committee requests that the Library of Parliament assign research staff to the committee. That is excellent, but is there room for some initiative there? Sometimes, there are people you would like to have, or that the committee has noticed at the Library Research Branch, and often they are not assigned to us.
[English]
Sometimes you find better people; you already have two or three names in mind, but they will give you someone else.
[Translation]
Because it is pleasant to work with researchers with whom you are on the same wavelength. You know what to ask them, you know their areas of expertise. But very often — without wanting to criticize the Library — I get the feeling that they can assign someone in the following way: where could we possibly place this or that person?
[English]
It has been happening to me: ``What will we do with Prud'homme? We might as well put him here.''
[Translation]
This relates to leadership and can also apply to the issue of researchers. My purpose is simply to further the cause of this committee, to which I am deeply committed; but I am not a member.
The Chairman: I think that is a good point. I don't object to your raising it.
Senator Prud'homme: But I would like to have your opinion.
The Chairman: In principle, Senator Prud'homme, nothing prevents us from expressing our preferences. We must also presume that the administration of the Library Research Branch knows the researchers and their specialties well, and that staff is assigned to us accordingly. If other senators would like to make comments, we can hear them now.
Shall the motion carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried. I would now like to invite Ms. Marie-Ève Hudon, who was the committee's researcher in previous sessions, to take a seat next to the chairman. Ms. Hudon has already demonstrated through her work that she is competent in every way to assist the committee in its work.
Senator Prud'homme: We might also say that she will soon be doubly competent.
The Chairman: We shall move on to item eight. Authority to commit funds and certify accounts. I am ready to entertain a motion to that effect.
[English]
Senator Keon: I so move.
The Chairman: It was moved by the Honourable Senator Keon:
That, pursuant to Section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, and Section 7, Chapter 3:6 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair and the Clerk of the Committee; and
That pursuant to Section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and Section 8, Chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority for certifying accounts payable by the Committee be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair and the Clerk of the Committee.
[Translation]
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried.
Item No. 9: Travel.
It is moved by Senator Chaput
That the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee, and such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
It is of course understood that this will apply when the committee has made the decision to submit its travel plans to the Senate and when the Senate has approved that request. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion? Carried.
Item No. 10: Designation of members who travel on committee business.
Moved by Honourable Senator Léger
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to
(1) determine whether any member of the committee is on ``official business'' for the purposes of paragraph 8 (3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
[English]
(2) consider any member of the Committee to be on ``official business'' if that member is: (a) attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of the Committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the Committee.
Is it your wish, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
[Translation]
Senator Prud'homme has a question.
Senator Prud'homme: I sat on another committee where the meaning of the term ``official business'' was discussed. This concerns attendance, I suppose, as recorded and published in the minutes. There was quite a heated debate on the issue; I believe you were there, Mr. Chairman. Some even said that if the minister delegates you to go somewhere, that is considered equivalent to being present in the Senate, which means that those who are never delegated anywhere will wind up being present in the Senate, and that is very worrying. It is the second part that concerns me, paragraph 2(b). Is it new?
The Chairman: I'm not aware of that.
Senator Prud'homme: That seems like a precedent to me. It also means that if someone decides not to come to sit in the Senate, he can then take advantage of a visit to a school in his riding or of other engagements, make a small presentation on the committee and inform you, Madam Clerk, so that you can inform the authorities that that gentleman did indeed make a few comments on the committee here. Those are precedents that scare me. In our procedure, these will constitute precedents for others.
Ms. Lemay: The clerk of the committee does not have that authority. The steering committee has the authority to determine whether or not, in such a case, a senator is discharging an official duty, when he goes to make such a presentation. It will be up to the steering committee to judge whether that is the case. The steering committee has the discretion to make that determination; the clerk does not have that authority.
Senator Prud'homme: I have no problem, personally, but I want to go on the record here because I am going to have that discussion at the committee, if ever the chair of our foreign affairs committee decides to hold an organization meeting — we have, as yet, heard nothing about that. It is the most important committee of Parliament where world affairs are concerned, and nothing has happened yet; I don't know what is going on. They must not be coming to an agreement.
But it was paragraph (b) that concerned me. I think Ms. Lemay provided a clear answer.
The Chairman: This is new to me as well, of course. I was not aware of this provision, but if the subcommittee on the agenda is entrusted with that duty, we will have to be given some very clear, specific guidelines so that we can determine whether a person is complying with the rules or not. We are not wardens here, charged with enforcing discipline. This is not a task I would look forward to with a lot of enthusiasm.
Senator Prud'homme: In any case this will be on the record, and we can refer to it. I suppose it is on the record now.
The Chairman: Senator Chaput, has such a situation ever arisen before?
Senator Chaput: No, not during the few months when I chaired the committee, but that paragraph was already there last year. I don't know if it existed in previous years. But it was there before and this situation did not arise while I was chairman. Perhaps we should ask the person who chaired the committee before me.
The Chairman: We shall take these remarks into account, and I am going to ask for clarification on the matter and find out whether there are guidelines. As I said, I do not relish the thought of having to be the discipline-enforcing warden, monitoring compliance, and I am sure that the steering committee does not want the job any more than I do. We must first and foremost respect, as they are honourable members of the Senate, the fact that each senator is personally responsible for his or her behaviour and for discharging his mandate as senator. It is not up to another senator to determine whether a senator is doing his work or not.
Is it your pleasure to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried.
[English]
Motion No. 11 deals with the travelling and living expenses of witnesses and is moved by the Honourable Senator Léger.
[Translation]
It is moved by Senator Léger that,
Pursuant to Senate guidelines for witnesses' expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization, and payment will take place upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness from the same organization, should there be exceptional circumstances.
[English]
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Item No. 12 —
Ms. Lemay: The regular, scheduled meetings of the committee will run from 4 p.m. to 7 p.m. on Mondays.
The Chairman: Does this scheduling proposal suit you? Or, shall we stand Item 12 until the permanent official opposition members who cannot be here today are here; Senator Keon is their spokesperson.
Senator Chaput: I don't want to speak for members who are not present today, but last year there was a problem with Senator Comeau's flight. He could not make it to the committee before 5 p.m.
Ms. Lemay: I spoke with staff in Senator Comeau's office yesterday. It seems that the problem has been solved for the next few months, but that may change in the future, of course. Next Monday, the senator will be able to be here because his flight is supposed to come in at 2:15 p.m. That of course is subject to change.
The Chairman: I believe flight schedules change in the winter and spring.
In any case, we are going to try to accommodate everyone, or as many people as we can. It may happen that a senator may occasionally have to be late. If that person cannot come, he should follow the usual procedure which is to communicate with his whip in order to have himself replaced temporarily.
So, it is agreed that our regular meeting time will be Monday from 4 p.m. to 7 p.m. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Other business. Does anyone want to raise any matter?
[English]
Senator Keon: Mr. Chairman, I would simply like to congratulate you and wish you well. This will be a tremendously important committee in the times ahead. You have an excellent membership. I hope that I can sit in on it once in a while because I continue to have a tremendous interest in this area.
I would like the minutes to reflect my appreciation to Senator Gauthier for everything he has done over the years. I recall — and perhaps he recalls — as a young doctor coming back from Boston many years ago and looking for help on the Hill to get things going over at the Heart Institute. Senator Gauthier's office was one of the first places that I visited, and it was certainly a productive thing to do.
Senator Gauthier has been particularly active and forward thinking in this area. This will be an important time for the presence of clear thinking in our official languages policy in Canada and how we deal with minorities. I wish you all good luck.
The Chairman: I am sure your comments are well received by all of us and certainly by Senator Gauthier.
[Translation]
We suggest that we hold our first meeting on Monday, and since we already have an order of reference regarding Bill S-3, sponsored by Senator Gauthier, that will be the only item on our agenda. Senator Gauthier is currently a member of the committee and will be present at that time to defend his bill for the fourth time.
Senator Gauthier, do you wish to have the floor?
[English]
Senator Gauthier: I want to thank Senator Keon for his generous statement.
Evidently, I have a bit of an interest in getting the bill through this committee, out of the Senate and into other place. Mr. Chairman, do you know if you must report this committee's organizational meeting before anything can be done?
Ms. Lemay: We can do it next Monday.
[Translation]
Senator Gauthier: I am going to put the question to you. Can the committee hold its meeting Monday on Bill S-3? This is a bill that was passed on second reading and referred to our committee.
Ms. Lemay: I do not see any problem.
Senator Gauthier: We do not have to report on today's meeting before we hold a meeting on Bill S-3?
Ms. Lemay: Not to my knowledge.
Senator Gauthier: I had understood that we had to submit a report and that the meeting could only be held Tuesday.
Ms. Lemay: We can do that Monday.
Senator Prud'homme: We will make new law.
The Chairman: We will move along swiftly.
Senator Gauthier I was informed that it was not possible to hold the meeting. I was a bit surprised.
[English]
Senator Prud'homme: In the British tradition, you can make a new tradition, and it becomes the law.
[Translation]
Senator Gauthier: May we discuss that meeting? Will other witnesses be called?
The Chairman: Public notice will be issued today or tomorrow morning at the latest. If anyone wishes to appear before the committee, we will have to take that into account, and potential witnesses will be invited to appear when the bill is studied on Monday. Up till now we have received no such request.
Ms. Lemay: Some people have expressed an interest in the fate of Bill S-3. It would be up to the members of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to indicate whether they feel it advisable to hear witnesses again on a bill when its substance has already been examined by the committee in the previous session. If my information is correct, the bill is congruent with the one that has already been passed, that is to say there has been no important change to the substance of Bill S-3 as compared to those that preceded it.
Senator Gauthier: I want to make this clarification: it is up to the committee to decide to hear witnesses, and not to witnesses to decide to be heard by the committee.
Ms. Lemay: Witnesses may request to appear, but it is up to the members of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, pursuant to the motion on the planning of future business, to decide whether or not they will hear witnesses, and to select those witnesses.
The Chairman: We will have to take the matter into advisement, but personally — and this would be my advice to the other members of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure — I don't see the usefulness of convening witnesses to reexamine an issue that has already been examined four times in committee and has been studied by the Senate on several occasions. I think that that would be unnecessary work, under the circumstances. I hope that we will be able to move as expeditiously as possible. I wanted to assure you of that.
Senator Gauthier: I am, then, taking it as a given that on Monday at 4 p.m. we will be hearing my presentation on Bill S-3.
The Chairman: Correct.
Senator Gauthier: Very well.
The Chairman: Are there any other matters you would like to debate at this time? If not, I would request a motion to adjourn.
The committee adjourned.