Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Transport and Communications
Issue 1 - Evidence for November 16, 2004
OTTAWA, Tuesday, November 16, 2004
The Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications met this day at 9:32 a.m. to consider the current state of Canadian media industries; emerging trends and developments in these industries; the media's role, rights and responsibilities in Canadian society; and current and appropriate future policies relating thereto.
Senator Joan Fraser (Chairman) presiding.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications.
[English]
We are resuming, as you know, our public hearings in our inquiry into the state of Canadian news media. I would like to greet, as well as you, honourable senators, our witnesses and members of the public who are here and who are sharing this experience with us through television across the country.
[Translation]
The committee is resuming its hearings on the State's role in helping media remain strong, independent and diversified in an environment marked by upheaval in recent years, specifically by globalization, technological change, convergence and concentration of ownership. The committee launched its study into this matter in April 2003. Since then, it has heard from 74 witnesses, with many more yet to appear. We also hope to travel to various locations across the country to hear from Canadians.
[English]
Today we resume our hearings with representatives of the National Ethnic Press and Media Council of Canada. The Council's roots go back to the 1950s and it has two major objectives: first, to build the capacity of its members by empowering them through technical assistance, training, obtaining postal concessions and other financial and allied help; and, second, to integrate the ethnic media into the mainstream media, thereby making the former a powerful tool to shape the tone and texture of Canadian public policy.
Those are mighty objectives, gentlemen.
The council is represented today by Mr. Thomas S. Saras, its president, and Mr. Mashadi Massood, its vice- president, press.
Welcome to the committee. Thank you for coming to meet with us.
I think you have had our normal format explained to you. We ask you for an opening statement of about 10 minutes, and then we shall go to questions. The whole proceeding will last about an hour. I would remind committee members that after that we go into an in camera session to discuss the future agenda and future business of the committee.
Mr. Thomas S. Saras, President, National Ethnic Press and Media Council of Canada: I will start.
First, I would like to thank you, Madam Chair, and honourable senators, for this honour. I will make my opening statement referring back to one of the Prime Ministers of this country. I do not want to offend anyone politically. We just loved this person and still we love him.
Writers and poets have always had fears for the Canadian identity. Almost instinctively, Canadians have tended to say that they are French Canadians or English Canadians, or Ukrainian-Canadians or whatever, or simply new Canadians, but what is Canada itself? With the Charter in place, we can now say that Canada is a society where all people are equal and where they share fundamental values based upon freedom: Pierre Elliott Trudeau.
Classical democratic theory always views democracy as a set of institutions that both promote and depend upon the full national development of the individual. For the political observer of Canadian society, it is clear that we are a nation of many nationalities, many races and many religions, bound together by a single ideal: the ideal of freedom and equality.
An estimated 40 per cent of Canada's population today — perhaps even more — stems from a culture other than French or British. Most of the new arrivals are fluent in only one language — the language of their country of origin. They arrive daily in Canada, some for prospects of a new and better life and others to escape oppression from the country of their origin, fully equipped to take an equal place in our society.
Their knowledge of Canada, in most cases, is non-existent. Our way of life is totally strange to them. Our cultural heritage is totally different from theirs. For many of them who made the journey in only a few hours, the transition and integration will take many years. For some of them, it will probably take a full generation.
In order to overcome the language barriers they face in the new country, they turn to the press or mass media of their own community in Canada to seek important information and valuable assistance.
In this context, the ethnic press and media become a vital source of information for newcomers and help them adjust to their new society by bringing news to them on current events. They also communicate their concerns to the various levels of the Canadian governments. It is apparent, therefore, that the ethnic press in Canada performs a unique function within the mainstream media. Generally, its purpose is to inform its leaders in a language more readily understood than one of Canada's founding languages of French and English.
As we are entering the new millennium, it has become more important than ever that the place of every minority group in our democracy not be obscured by ignorance or prejudice. It is also a basic principle of modern democracies, and very important for their functioning, that members of every minority group have the ability to discuss and consider together their special problems so that the solution might benefit the broader society, and in this way we avoid having a crisis.
Furthermore, it is common knowledge that people's participation in public affairs is the underpinning of our political system. However, in order for a democracy to work effectively and efficiently, it requires a knowledgeable population, well-informed of the affairs of the nation. It is in the ethnic press, therefore, where our new citizens fully understand, in their own language, the answers to those many questions.
The small, sometimes poorly printed newspaper that is delivered to these communities every week attains significance in their lives that only a few of us have experienced. The ethnic newspaper must therefore provide a service that is not expected of the mainstream language press. To a degree, it becomes a social textbook for the reader.
Every time government legislation is enacted, it is translated and published in every language of publication and editorial comments explain the provisions of the new legislation in a familiar manner. This work takes on special importance when we deal with immigration, pensions, welfare, housing, quarantine, income and minimum wages, where a more complicated explanation is necessary.
Frequently, ethnic leaders bring their legal problems to the attention of the editors. In some cases, we must arrange legal aid to them in order to take the matters to the court, and in others we must get them in touch with the proper authorities. Often, the biggest part of the editorial content of the ethnic press is devoted to defining political parties and their philosophy, the structure of a government institution, the Canadian political culture, social customs, labour laws, bargaining rights, health and hospital coverage and similar matters.
These are but a few of the reasons that make the role of the dual service of the ethnic press important. Unfortunately, this role is often not appreciated by the political establishment of our great country.
Who else serves better public opinion, educates and prepares new citizens among our ethnic communities but the ethnic press? Although most ethnic readers are intelligent persons, capable of arriving at a decision on their own once they know the facts, the facts in an ethnic press are varied and they take the form of tutoring. For this reason, the ethnic press potentially becomes far more effective in influencing its readership than is possible with the English or French press.
Regrettably, however, there are a number of publications circulating in Canada that are attempting to manipulate the opinion of their readership. Most of them are from other countries and most of them have their head office in other countries. As I will explain later, they are republishing in Canada and circulating here.
This runs contrary to what has been happening during the last 100 years. The ethnic press of Canada has performed not only the task of helping with the integration of newcomers, but it has, foremost, been seriously interested in the development of Canadian citizenship in a spirit of unity as Canadians who also preserve their heritage.
The Chairman: Mr. Saras, I will interrupt you briefly to remind you that the members of the committee have copies of your statement and we do want to have enough time to ask you questions.
If you can bear that in mind as you deliver your remarks, it would probably help the proceedings.
Mr. Saras: Thank you. I will ask my vice-president to continue with one more page and then turn it over to questions.
Mr. Mashadi Massood, National Ethnic Press and Media Council of Canada: Let us go through the main objectives of our organization, namely, unite to present, serve and negotiate on behalf of members of the ethnic press and electronic media of Canada; to promote and integrate the economic, social and cultural interests of ethnic press, as well as multicultural communities of Canada, into mainstream Canadian society; to encourage unity among its members and ethnic communities in promoting their social, cultural and political involvement, activities and political participation in the democratic process of Canada; to promote excellence in journalism among members of ethnic press and help them integrate fully into mainstream society; to serve as a forum for study and discussion of various issues faced by ethnic groups and ethnic press; to gather and disseminate information that will lead to better understanding and cooperation among the various ethnic groups in Canada and mainstream society; to promote the economic and social status of members of ethnic press as well as multicultural communities of Canada; to study and to interpret Canada's role in international affairs and its position in relation to all nations dedicated to upholding the ideal of freedom and democracy; to defend the Canadian Constitution and Charter of Rights and Freedoms and to promote the unity of Canada; to promote the basic principle of human rights as presented in the International Declaration of Human Rights of 1948 by the United Nations; and to promote multiculturalism and defend the freedom of all Canadians.
Mr. Saras: Madam Chair, I believe that it is clear what, exactly, we are advocating and what, exactly, we are doing. We tried to unite the industry and we want to know that the members of this industry, which employs about 1,500 Canadians — and most of those operations are family oriented but they also have a number of people that they employ — will be given status so that their input is recognized by our political establishment.
For example, I have been in this business for 32 years. My publication goes all over Canada. The Honourable Senator Merchant probably knows that her community is receiving every copy of my publication. We are facing expenses and many difficulties and we do not have help from any level of the Canadian government, or very little. As I explained in my own report, from the government budget of $160 million for 1999, we received $1.2 million. That is, the whole industry, not just the press but the media and the press. From $120 million two years ago, the whole industry received $1.2 million. For this year, there is a budget of $67 million and my members and the industry did not receive more than $400,000, due to the fact that government advertising was on hold for a great period of time. In turn, this has affected our industry and many publications went bankrupt. They ceased operations. They are unable to continue.
In addition, after working for 32 to 35 years we are reaching an age where we are not young any more. The government blessed every Canadian at a certain age with the ability to retire and enjoy life, the few remaining years. When you are a new immigrant, life in this country is not easy. Believe me: it is very hard to put yourself on the map. You feel tired at a certain point. When we reach the age of 65, we find ourselves having to look at the government and the support it will provide to a person who never worked in his life. Let us say, for whatever reason, he was homeless or whatever you call it. We get exactly the same benefits as that person. I believe that this is not fair, either for me and my colleagues or for everyone in the industry who supports, in his lifetime, this nation and believes in the fundamentals of this nation.
He believes he is a Canadian and as a Canadian he should get something. Last year we had a mini-conference with about 60 members from all over the country. We asked the government to accept and support the industry by giving them some benefits. Among those benefits we do not ask for privileges. Let me explain one thing. We ask that whatever goes to the mainstream media be distributed equally to us. I do not consider my publication to be a Greek publication. I publish in Greek and English because my main readership is Greek; however, mine is a Canadian publication. I am proud to say that my publication is the only one outside Greece that is well known everywhere in the world.
On the subject of benefits, last year the Minister of Canadian Heritage, after we approached her, promised that an amount of $8 million from the funds for the mainstream media would be set aside to be used by the members of the ethnic press. When we went to see how to get those benefits, we found that because of the rules and regulations of the department, there was no way we could get even a penny. Those rules and regulations state, for example, that 50 per cent of the copies of a publication should be sent to subscribers. We are sending out our publications and distributing them for free. We do not sell them. No ethnic publication is sold for even a penny; they are distributed free of charge. That was a big problem. We approached the department and said, ``Listen, let's try to see the reality.'' We were promised that eventually they would take care of this matter. A year later I do not believe anything has been done.
At the end of the fiscal year, because we did not have the ability to access this money to help ourselves, the money went back to the main account and has been distributed to the mainstream media.
Another thing we asked the government is that GST should be eliminated. My main question is: If Canadian magazines are exempt from the GST, why should ethnic magazines not receive the same treatment? We brought this motion to the table and discussed it. We were told it is a very difficult thing. It must go through the various levels of government and they do not expect that this can be done. I do not say anything else.
If I mail a single copy through Canada Post, I have to pay $3.80. If I mail 1,000 copies, that will cost me a fortune. The Canadian magazine will cost only 10 cents to mail out because there is the subsidy from Canadian Heritage. I do not have this ability because I do not meet the 50-per-cent requirements in the regulations.
The government's advertising budget is less than 1 per cent, paid to 400 publications and another 65 electronic media producers in radio and television. We ask for that figure to be at least 10 per cent. If they have a budget of $160 million, they should consider giving 10 per cent, or $16 million, to us in order to sustain this segment.
We would also ask for something similar to what happens with the United States government. For every company that receives a government contract to promote a contract or business, there is a requirement in the United States that a portion of the advertising budget go to help the ethnic publications. We do not have that here in Canada. We have asked the government time and again to please consider that. That money is not millions, but at least we will know that we are part of the industry and it will help us. Those are the main objectives.
Another thing that I want to bring to your attention is the subject of so-called volunteers in the industry. Electronic media in Canada are concentrated in a few hands. Part of the ethnic media comes from the same owners of the mainstream media. One of them is a very big firm with operations all over Canada. It is using a smart way to make money. It goes to the ethnic communities and asks the young members of the communities to volunteer. They often work 20, 30 or 40 hours a week covering various events. They do not get a penny because they are volunteers. Others may get $80 per week but spend more than that in transportation costs. By appealing to the aspirations of young people, they are creating a type of modern-day slavery.
Why should people who work with television, radio or the press not have the same regulations as any other industry? Minimum wage is $7 per hour. The owners should know that they must pay that per hour.
Senator Phalen: You mention in your brief that there are a number of publications from outside the country that are reprinted in Canada and that you believe are trying to manipulate the opinion of the readers. Would you elaborate on that, please?
Mr. Saras: I gave a list of them to Mr. Heyde.
The Chairman: The clerk has that material and it will be circulated to senators.
Mr. Saras: For example, at this time, there are four publications that come from Mainland China. They are the daily editions of the Chinese newspapers.
They are arriving in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal via satellite. They are printed on four pages with local news and pictures and are republished and circulated. Whatever news is going there is coming here.
One of them, called, I believe, the Chinese Canadian Post, is doing another job, which is much smarter. The outside part of the newspaper reads ``Chinese Canadian Post.'' When you open the outside page, inside it is the People's Liberation Army Daily. It is the publication of the military of China that arrives in Canada and is distributed through the channels to those who want this publication. I do not think that those publications, senator, are helping to create the Canadian identity.
Senator Phalen: You also mentioned that there is a decline in the number of ethnic publications from 600 to 337. Would that just be the result of market forces?
Mr. Saras: It is the result of ethnic publications being totally neglected by all governments. As you remember, a few years ago, we had those terrible cuts because the government was facing a difficult economic situation. The first industry affected by them was our industry. In previous years, I can assure you my publication was receiving at least $20,000 to $25,000 every year from government advertisements, and another $8,000 from the provincial government. We have a very limited market. You cannot go to a Chinese person and ask him to advertise in a Greek newspaper. You have to go to the Greek market. Anyhow, we had an industry and we had a publication that was coming out. Now, when the cuts started, during the years of Mr. Mulroney, I believe, who cut absolutely the ethnic publications, half of our industry died automatically because we cannot pay. The expenses remain the same. The production goes up every time, paper costs go up every six months, and, of course, your revenues are going down because the government suddenly says it cannot continue supporting publications.
My question is how is it the government can support a Canadian publication with a full page advertisement, for which it pays $36,000, and cannot support 5, 10 or 15 ethnic publications in Canada, which will cost them $1,000 for a full page?
Senator Munson: Thank you for appearing before the committee. I was curious about your views on the CRTC. In recent days, we have heard about the CRTC saying no to RAI and placing conditions on Al-Jazeera. What are your views on the CRTC and its role? Is it playing a relevant role in what Canadians should or should not hear from outside or inside the country?
Mr. Saras: Senator, you come from our field, and you are a distinguished member of the industry. If we believe in the future, in the culture we are creating and the identity of this country, I do not believe that it is necessary for every medium from outside to come into this country. First of all, they do not have anything of the so-called Canadian element. They just take whatever comes through the satellite and they put it onto the airwaves. They charge every Canadian citizen $30 or $40 per month. They are making easy money, and I do not think that they are offering anything positive to Canadian society itself.
We brought this matter to the attention of the CRTC time and again. We also told them about the situation with the volunteers and the young Canadians who try to make a career there and how they are using them. I believe it was to Mr. Cardoza, during his term, that we spoke time and again. He told me he would do his best. I do not think that he did anything, at least until the day he left the commission.
There are a few things in this field that have been going bad for many decades. They need to be re-examined and new rules should be set. This is the global village. We no longer have the ability to stay here and say that we are just Canadian. We know that if we do not give them the ability to come to Canada through the usual channels, someone will put a production on a U.S. satellite and everyone who buys the disk can get it. Why do we have to give to the Russian state a television line just to broadcast daily whatever happens in Russia, or the Greek state a Greek television line that is going to broadcast daily and so on?
The Chairman: Mr. Saras, I will ask you to tighten up your answers a little.
Mr. Saras: This is a very serious matter, and I believe that it is in the hands of the government to take action.
Senator Munson: What is the ethnic press looking for from the federal government? You talk about money. Is it looking for money for advertising? If so, would not you be beholden to the government that gives you the money to advertise? In other words, do you not become conflicted?
Mr. Saras: We discussed this matter. I do not think that we are going directly to the government to ask it to hand out cheques or money to our members. All we are asking the government is that if it has a budget of X dollars, please give us X minus 90. We will be happy because, senator, we are also in the Canadian market. We are part of the Canadian industry. Why are the anglophone and the francophone publications getting something with no conflict, but when it comes to the ethnic press, there is a conflict? I cannot see the distinction. If standards apply to one part of the industry, the same standards should apply to the other part of the industry. I cannot see any conflict in this. We do not ask for privileges or direct cash.
I know that until March 31, the end of the fiscal year, there is a budget of $67 million within the Government of Canada for advertising to promote the programs of the government. Now, from that $67 million, I should not say it is too bad if we ask that at least $6 million be given to the ethnic press and $61 million to the rest of the industry. A budget has been set aside for this job.
Mr. Massood: I would like to bring up an example. Last year we had the SARS crisis, which affected everyone in Canada and there was a lot of advertising in the mainstream media. However, the mother tongue of 50 per cent of the population of Toronto is another language. When this crisis occurred many people did not know what was really happening. They heard that something very bad is happening, but not the details of what to do or what not to do and so on. They did not get all the information.
Unlike the mainstream papers like The Toronto Star, The Globe and Mail or the Ottawa Citizen, where there is a sports section, an entertainment section or a financial section, the ethnic press has only one section and most people read it from cover to cover. The readership is a lot higher than for the mainstream publications. If there had been advertisements in the ethnic press, other people would have been reached who could not be reached through the mainstream media.
Senator Merchant: Gentlemen, I would like to welcome you. I am a Greek immigrant and I came to this country not speaking any English or French. I believe I have some understanding, therefore, of the importance of being able to read a paper in a language that is understood, at least in the beginning, until one becomes accustomed and learns the English language. As a matter of fact, my parents used to pay us 10 cents to speak English. When we first came to Canada, every word we said in English would be rewarded with a dime in order to encourage us to learn English. No one really wants to stay separate. When people come to this country they want to become part of the Canadian fabric.
I think what you are trying to tell us, gentlemen, is that you have a very special function in this society, in that you are trying to fill the vacuum that exists for a large segment of our population who are not able, as you said, Mr. Massood, to get information that is important to Canadians. Therefore, you translate what is going on in this country, politically and socially, so that individuals become productive members of this society. I congratulate you for putting up with all the impediments in order to publish your newspapers.
Are you finding that the young people in the Greek community are reading your newspapers?
Mr. Saras: Just for that reason, 20 years ago we were all publishing only in the main language of the publication. Either it was Greek, Italian, Persian, or whatever. Today, 90 per cent of all the publications are published in the first language of the publication, plus English or French. I know most of my colleagues in Quebec are now publishing in French and the other language, and the same thing is true in Toronto. There are some communities, 10 or 12 per cent, which are the so-called new communities, the Afghanis, for example. They are the first generation of immigrants, as our generation was 40 years ago, and they prefer to read in the Afghani language. I know that the Persian publications are mostly produced in the Persian language, but they also have segments in English.
Trying to encourage a community to integrate into the mainstream community is not an easy thing. People who come to this country from some newly established democracy, if they are established, think the same way they were thinking back in their homeland. They keep a distance from the government because in their experience they have never been exposed to an open society where the government was a friend, rather than something that could destroy their lives.
The ethnic press is approaching them to say that here the government is a friend, be part of this country, integrate and forget whatever your priest, your politicians, your leaders are trying to tell you, to remain apart. We want you to be and you must be part of this society.
Senator Tkachuk: I do not quite understand something, and maybe you can help me. When you talk about the 30- per-cent to 35-per-cent fee charged by certain agencies on federal government contracts, how does that work exactly?
Mr. Saras: I do have it here. I would appreciate it if the clerk can make copies and pass them to you. Over the years, a practice developed within the system whereby some private offices have been established and out of which came agents who represent the ethnic press. In fact, they sent a letter to Mr. Massood and told him that if he wanted to get advertisements from the Government of Canada he would have to sign an application and with that they could come forward as his agent. In return, they would make sure he received the amount but they would deduct 30 per cent.
That means if the government pays $1,000, they would take $300, and if the payment is required within a month, 35 per cent would be deducted and they would pay the $650. I brought this matter to the attention of the then Prime Minister, Brian Mulroney, again with Mr. Turner, again with Mr. Chrétien, and again and again, and also with the Leader of the Opposition last year. We met and I talked to him again. It seems that everyone wants to help but no one is doing anything.
As a matter of fact, last month there was a campaign going on for Health Canada. I do not know how much it cost, half a million, a million, who knows? That campaign was extended to the ethnic publications. All those who received this ad were subscribing with those agents to pay 30 per cent.
The Chairman: Mr. Saras, it is a little difficult to understand exactly what you are talking about. Are you trying to suggest that there are improper relationships, or are you just saying that there are people in the private sector who have, so to speak, become the prime intermediaries because they know where to go? What are we talking about here?
Mr. Saras: It is my personal experience that there are some people who probably are getting some benefits out of this. I cannot accuse anyone. I do not have anything to document my allegations or accusations.
Senator Tkachuk: How much money flows from these agencies? Is your total $1 million, $2 million, $3 million?
Mr. Saras: If it is a $1-million campaign, it is $300,000, and that goes to two or three individual agencies. I do not think that those agencies can do this job.
Senator Tkachuk: Are they advertising agencies or sales agencies?
Mr. Saras: No.
Senator Tkachuk: They are straight middle people or middlemen?
Mr. Saras: Yes.
Senator Tkachuk: Over a year, what would be the total gross sales?
Mr. Saras: I do not know. That depends. As I told you, it is 30 per cent on whatever amount. From this campaign only, I would expect it to be $200,000 or $300,000. I met with the civil servants and we had a very heated discussion on this matter. They were trying to tell me that it happens. This campaign went only to the members who were organized with those agencies, but one of the agencies sent out a letter that said if you want to get Government of Canada advertisements, you have to sign an agreement that I will represent you and receive 30 per cent. Who gave him the right to approach these people? Mr. Massood got this letter. I received a phone call from Montreal and I told them that as the president of the industry, even if I know that my publication will die tomorrow without a penny, I will not sign. This is manipulation and I will not accept ``godfathers'' in this industry. As a result, I did not receive the ad.
The Chairman: Mr. Saras, for clarification purposes, you said this was the Government of Ontario?
Mr. Saras: No, Government of Canada.
The Chairman: I am sorry, but I still do not understand what you are saying. I do not know whether you are talking about people in the government or people in private industry. People everywhere in the world charge fat fees for government relations, not only in Canada, because government is a labyrinth and finding your way around it is difficult, and the private sector is also a labyrinth and finding your way around it can be difficult.
I do not know whether you are talking about a number of individuals or a number of agencies who are doing what middlemen do, or whether you are talking about something more serious. You give us no names; you give us no specifics. This is an extremely difficult situation for us to try to understand.
Mr. Saras: Yes, but also it is not my position, senator, to come here and give you names. If someone would like to entertain those facts, they will find out what is going on. We asked some members of Parliament to intervene on our behalf. We asked the department to give us a list of the publications that received this ad without subscribing to the agencies and how many within the agencies. We have not received an answer as yet.
In early September, when I received the phone call about giving them 30 per cent for a full-page advertisement, if I had said yes, I would have got two or three full pages. The way I answered him was, if I do not get a penny and I die, I still will not do it. It is a matter of ethics; it is a matter of principles. I am the president and I cannot accept this practice.
The Chairman: We cannot do anything with what you have said unless you tell us who made the call. What are we talking about?
Mr. Saras: If you want more information, I believe that I will have to find out. I am not the one who makes the rules. I am the one who lives by the rules.
The Chairman: Perhaps when you have a proper file created you could forward it to the committee and it will be circulated to the members.
Mr. Saras: Yes, please. I will do that.
The Chairman: Thank you.
Mr. Saras: I can probably send you more information.
Senator Tkachuk: I was on the list for asking questions. I thought what he said was interesting and I want to follow this up.
The Chairman: It is, but —
Senator Tkachuk: I do understand what he is saying, I think, but I would like to get the names. My office would be most pleased to have them.
These are not advertising agencies. These are simply sales agencies, just so I have that clear?
Mr. Saras: Yes.
Senator Tkachuk: They say they are the sales agent on behalf of the government. This is not unusual, although I find the percentage that they take rather unusual.
Mr. Saras: Yes, I agree 100 per cent. If we had 20 publications, with 10 publications from the agent and 10 publications outside the agency receiving the ads, it would be normal.
Senator Tkachuk: Let us say I advertise Mercedes Benz, or I am Health Canada, it does not really matter, is there an agency I can go to that is representative of the ethnic press and say I would like to place a number of advertisements in the following ethnic press and they would handle that for me, much like the weekly newspapers association does? Do you have that?
Mr. Saras: The only agency that I am dealing with is the so-called agency of record. This is the company that receives the contract from the government and acts on behalf of the government in the distribution of the advertisement.
To my understanding, as a publisher, I am dealing directly with this agency, and this agency, at one point, was deducting 15 per cent. This is very understandable. However, along with the agency of record, there are now individuals. In fact, there is only one company in Montreal and one in Toronto that are approaching people and promising them that they will receive a lot of government advertisements if they give the company 30 per cent. The people, of course, think that instead of getting nothing, $600 makes a difference, and they subscribe to this.
Public Works Canada came to me and said if there is someone to blame, it is my own people, because they cannot believe that journalists are signing such contracts. I said to them, if the president of this powerful organization has been excluded because he is not subscribing to an agency, then you are cooperating with someone, and I do not know if this is legal or illegal.
Senator Tkachuk: You mentioned newspapers that are published in other countries and circulated here. In your brief you say that they are from a publication of Chinese origin. Are there other publications being published, outside of the Chinese newspapers, in this fashion?
Mr. Saras: Yes, there are other communities.
Senator Tkachuk: Could you tell me what they might be? Are there others?
Mr. Saras: I know that the Weekly Gleaner is published in Jamaica and is circulated in Canada. Yet, the Jamaicans are much smarter than the Chinese because they have not created a company. The same company that publishes in Jamaica publishes in Canada. They do not have a Canadian company.
This is not the case with the Chinese. The Chinese created companies in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. I believe they have three different offices and three different companies: The Western Canada Sing Tao, the Central Canada Sing Tao and the Quebec Sing Tao.
Senator Tkachuk: Do they receive government advertising?
Mr. Saras: To be honest with you, I do not know. I am not aware of that, but I believe that they do, because they are Canadian. The requirement to get a Canadian advertisement is to be a Canadian company. That means that if you have your company here in Canada, you are part of the Canadian industry.
I do not believe that anyone from the Government of Canada is going over to find out what exactly the message is, et cetera.
Senator Tkachuk: What are you saying, though?
Mr. Saras: We have about 15 Chinese publications in Canada, published by individuals. They die on a daily basis. They cannot sustain themselves. I do not believe that they will continue for long. No one is helping them, but yet we are financially helping publications that come from outside Canada. This is not the present government. Do not take it that this is a practice of the present government.
Senator Tkachuk: I did not say it was.
Mr. Saras: It has been the same for centuries now. There are no rules. There never were any rules. It continues with no rules.
Madam Chair, you said before that that happens with the federal government only, the Government of Canada, and I say that this is happening with every government, whether municipal, provincial or federal. Can you imagine how much money is ending up in the hands of these people for doing nothing?
Senator Tkachuk: Just to go back to that ethnic press issue, so that I am clear, publications that are published outside of Canada are then distributed as Canadian publications.
Mr. Saras: Yes. They put four pages on the front.
Senator Tkachuk: Like Time magazine.
Mr. Saras: That is right.
Senator Tkachuk: Is there anything wrong with that? What is the problem with that?
Mr. Saras: It is the culture we create.
Senator Tkachuk: Is there a difference between Al-Jazeera being available on TV and one of these publications?
Mr. Saras: No. The message is almost the same.
The Chairman: Senators, we are running late. I still have Senator Trenholme Counsell and Senator Chaput on the list. I will ask both the questioners and the respondents to be succinct, please.
Senator Trenholme Counsell: Thank you for a very illuminating and important presentation this morning. I think I understand most of it. However, I have three questions to put, after which you can answer them individually.
First, I am still not sure whether individual papers or groups of papers — let us say one person owns several papers, which I expect is the case — have been refused in terms of going directly to government, Health Canada or whatever it might be, for advertising, or whether you have become beholden through, maybe, very insidious ways to the middle people you have described.
Second, I know that when new Canadians come to our country, in many places there are seminars, conferences, one- on-one sessions, all kinds of orientation programs available. I am wondering if this same assistance has been offered to the small ethnic papers in terms of advice regarding publications, budgets and advertising. My impression from listening to you is that you are not really availing yourself sufficiently of advertising dollars in your community from people who could well afford to advertise and should advertise in your papers.
Third, could you indicate three things that we might be able to think about and, perhaps, come up with answers? What would your three priorities be in terms of your presentation to us this morning?
Mr. Saras: With regard to the editorial of the publication, there are provisions in Canadian Heritage for the small magazines, Canadian magazines, to get direct financial help for editorials, to retain editorial writers. Those provisions do not apply to us. We went down there and asked them. Maclean's receives probably $7 million or $8 million every year to sustain operations.
Senator Trenholme Counsell: I am talking about newspapers now.
Mr. Saras: But it is the same thing.
Senator Trenholme Counsell: Yes and no.
Mr. Saras: Most of us are weekly papers. I do not believe that we have dailies. There are very few dailies. To be a daily, you have to be sustained financially from some other source, either Al-Jazeera or someone else.
My problem is that a Canadian magazine such as Maclean's is receiving $7 million to $8 million every year in direct help. I am not getting one penny because we do not comply directly with the rules. What are the rules? In order to be considered a magazine, you have to have the whole front page taken up with a picture and not an editorial. We are publishing with pictures, and we start editorials from there and we move back. That was rejected. It is a technicality that kills the publication.
Senator Trenholme Counsell: Put the picture there.
Mr. Saras: The other technicality, of course, is the fact that you do not have 50 per cent of your circulation via subscriptions. I am circulating all over Canada, here and in Toronto and Montreal — 45,000 copies. How can I send out 22,000 subscriptions for $3 per copy? There are a few things, technicalities, of course, that keep you out. This is the main problem.
I forgot, to be honest with you, the first part of your question, senator.
Senator Trenholme Counsell: Whether individual papers, weeklies, have tried on their own to access advertising dollars from places such as Health Canada and have been refused.
Mr. Saras: When I saw the advertisements, I myself called the agency and asked them why I and some other papers had been excluded. They told me it was because the new agency of record did not receive information from the old agency of record, which was the one in Montreal. I asked the Prime Minister's Office. I even went there, and I told them that this is unacceptable. They said, ``Okay, go to speak with them or whatever.'' I spent one day there. I came from Toronto. To be honest with you, senator, I am sick. I recently had a heart operation with four bypasses. According to my doctors, I should not leave my house, but I travelled five hours to come here and five hours to go home, risking my life, because that was an important matter. I spent one day there. We decided that they would give me the questionnaire, I would send the questionnaire to my members, and then I would send the information back to them. Five hours later, when I got back to Toronto, they had changed their minds. They said, ``No, no, you submit the list, and we will send the questionnaire.'' I do not know.
Senator Trenholme Counsell: My last question was very pointed, but perhaps it is the way I think. Do you have a list of priorities, very briefly?
Mr. Saras: Yes.
Senator Trenholme Counsell: What are the top three?
Mr. Saras: This is something we want to ask this committee to help us with.
First — and this must be done — is the elimination of GST. The GST is killing us. We do not receive GST. If I tell one of my advertisers from private industry that I must charge him 7 per cent, he will be very upset. We do not receive GST, but we pay GST.
As a matter of fact, we do not pay PST. The Province of Ontario does not charge us PST. We have been excluded from the PST. We want the same thing from the federal government. It is not a large amount of money for the government. It will not be losing millions of dollars, but it would help us to eliminate the paperwork. I do not think that we are talking about more than a few hundred dollars or a few thousand dollars every year.
Senator Trenholme Counsell: What is the second point?
Mr. Saras: The other thing is that we want — and this is a must — to get help for the members of the industry. We will pay $200 or $300 every year to a special account that you will create, and, as it does with the rest of industry, the government will match this amount equally or whatever, so that when we reach the age of 65 we will get something, a penny, and be proud before our children and our grandchildren, in that we have done something in our lives that has been recognized. Every member of every industry pays $200 to $300 per year and gets a retirement pension. By the time I get out, I will probably have to accept the minimum of $600 or whatever. Why? I have spent all my life at this.
Senator Trenholme Counsell: What is your number three?
Mr. Saras: The third one is that we want the government to step in to eliminate every agency so that we can deal directly with the government advertisement agency.
If you will allow me a fourth one, at least 10 per cent of the yearly budget of the government for advertising government programs should be given to the ethnic press.
The Chairman: You did make that point in your earlier testimony.
[Translation]
Senator Chaput: The situation that you describe is comparable to the one that regional minority francophone community newspapers are currently experiencing. We are both members of minority communities. I am a francophone from Western Canada. I well acquainted with the situation you have described, such as the funding shortfall that ensued when the government stopped buying advertising. You claim to represent small publications. However, did you know that there is in fact a Canadian association that represents small francophone newspapers?
Since small English and French media find themselves in a comparable situation today, have you made any effort to voice your concerns and make recommendations to this association? Have you ever worked together in the past?
[English]
Mr. Saras: Senator, we have some members of the francophone media in Toronto, such as Dominique Leval, who represents Le Métropolitain magazine. She is one of our vice-presidents and the French-speaking member of the board. We also have other publications.
Let me tell you that there exists another association of francophone publications outside Quebec. We have good relations with them.
Our main concern is the fact that we call ourselves ethnic media. If we were to include a francophone publication, then the main question is: how, given the linguistic duality, can one of them be considered ethnic media? They are part of the Canadian mainstream media. This is the main thing, but we try, within the parameters of our ability, to cover those things. I can assure you that we are working together very well.
The Chairman: Thank you so much, gentlemen.
I will ask you to send us a number of things. Take notes, please. We would like a list of your members and of your officers, your board of directors; any data that you have about the readership and circulation of ethnic media; and if we are talking about circulation, obviously we need to specify — this is the classic categorization — paid or freely distributed circulation; anything you have on that. I am not asking you to pay money for special studies for us, but any material you have would be extremely useful to us.
Mr. Saras: We have that information. It is easy to provide.
The Chairman: Next, we would like a list of the criteria that you said you had been given for qualifying for government advertising. Next, we would like a sample of the standard contract. I assume there is such a thing for government advertisements.
Mr. Saras: Yes, there is. We do not have that. I will ask the agency of record to send me a copy.
The Chairman: You can send directly to us the name of the agency of record. You said there was a letter that Mr. Massood received. We would like a copy of that.
We would like documentation about the person or persons with whom you spoke on the telephone in connection with the commission. We would like a written explanation of your understanding of what that person said to you.
Please provide all of that, obviously, as soon as possible, gentlemen.
Mr. Saras: I will do that.
The Chairman: You are journalists. You understand deadlines.
Mr. Saras: We will go to Toronto. In two days you will have all that information.
I want to make myself clear. In that conversation with Public Works Canada, present was a member of the Privy Council Office, of the Prime Minister's Office.
The Chairman: We need you to write down your account of what happened. We will then be able to consider it and we will be grateful to you for having provided it.
Mr. Saras: Thank you. I will do that. You have my promise.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Saras and Mr. Massood. We are grateful to you for having come to us this morning.
We shall now go into an in camera session, which means that members of the public will be asked to leave the room. Only senators and staff will remain.
Mr. Saras: I thank all the members of the Senate, and offer my apologies; I did not mean to create any political problems here.
The Chairman: To use an old political word, it is specificity that is helpful.
Thank you. We will suspend the meeting for a few moments, senators.
The committee continued in camera.