Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 5 - Evidence - Meeting of September 27, 2006 - Morning
WINNIPEG, Wednesday, September 27, 2006
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 9 a.m. to examine and report on the involvement of Aboriginal communities and businesses in economic development activities in Canada.
Senator Gerry St. Germain (Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Good morning. As Chair of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Peoples, it is my pleasure to welcome you to today's hearings here in Winnipeg.
First, I wish to thank the First Nations and the Metis people on whose ancestral lands we have gathered. Honourable senators, elders, guests, members of the audience, our committee has been mandated to study the involvement of Aboriginal communities and businesses in economic development activities in Canada.
The study started in the last Parliament under the leadership of our colleague, Senator Sibbeston, who is with us here this morning and who was the chair of the committee at that time. We have heard from many witness in Ottawa and held public hearings last fall in British Columbia and Alberta. Senator Sibbeston and I also visited some locations in the Northwest Territories in March of 2005.
This week, we were in Lac La Ronge on Monday on a fact-finding mission. Yesterday, the committee was in Saskatoon all day for public hearings. We will hear from a number of witnesses here in Winnipeg and then travel to Thunder Bay tomorrow, before returning to Ottawa where more evidence will be gathered.
In undertaking this study, the committee's objective is to determine the conditions that foster or hinder economic development in Aboriginal communities.
As our first witnesses today, we have the Aboriginal Chamber of Commerce represented by Bonnie Sypulski, Board Member, and Edward Kidd, Executive Director.
Ms. Sypulski and Mr. Kidd, welcome to our committee. The podium is yours.
Bonnie Sypulski, Board Member, Aboriginal Chamber of Commerce: Good morning honourable senators and welcome to Winnipeg. I will give you a bit of history about the Aboriginal Chamber of Commerce, ACC. We have been in full operation for the past year and a half. It has taken us the entire year to put together the structure of the chamber. To date, we have come a long way in accomplishing what we wanted to do. We have an office and staff and are working hard now in getting up our membership.
Some of the joint venture opportunities that were presented to us in the early stages of setting up the chamber came from the Manitoba chamber, the Winnipeg chamber and other chambers stepping up to the plate and offering us the help and guidance to ensure that we do become successful, and to ensure that we do meet a certain goal for businesses in Manitoba.
When we say Aboriginal members, we mean treaty First Nations, Metis and Inuit. We also accept in our membership non-Aboriginal businesses, and hope that both sectors will grow so that we can encourage all of our businesses in Manitoba to network with one another and create a better environment for business, and also to promote, not just each of us individually, but also in the end to promote Manitoba.
We are finding that the Aboriginal population is growing substantially. We are also finding that the younger generation coming up behind us are more encouraged and enthusiastic about becoming their own business owners and entrepreneurs.
At this stage, the ACC has not created any programs that will help them necessarily to get started in business because that is not what our goal is, but we definitely promote them in that we send them to the proper organizations to get them on track in the start-up stages of their own businesses. In the end, we hope they join the chamber so that we can further take them along to network with other businesses, either to sell their own products or to look for suppliers.
Many of the bigger organizations here in Manitoba such as Manitoba Telecom Services, Manitoba Hydro, IBM, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs and the Manitoba Metis Federation have been very supportive of us. A lot of these organizations have stepped up to the plate again and been very supportive in that they have sponsored us and helped create sessions for us to network within. We can piggyback off some of their programs in order to save the Aboriginal Chamber of Commerce the dollars it would take to create our own programs. Again, because we are brand new, we do not want to spend any funding or dollars creating programs that already exist. As we figure, why recreate the wheel? If these programs are already out there, we want to partner up with these organizations and use some of their networking sessions and workshops. These bigger organizations have stepped up and allowed us to do that.
One of the ACC's biggest investments in the past year has been creating a phenomenal website. It has been a great tool. We can post bulletins and create job postings, again, maybe not so much for the business entrepreneur to start a business through a job posting, but for our businesses and members to hire people and to help them promote their own businesses.
We have a resource already, a database. We spent much of the past summer creating a list that is very current. We got on the phone with each of these existing Aboriginal businesses and found there are about 350 of them operating right now here in Manitoba, and that is just a small portion of it. We need to work harder on this database and invest some definite marketing dollars to find out where all of the other Aboriginal business owners are. They are not listed in any directory that we could find. They are not listed in telephone books. But every time we go out there and network, we meet another Aboriginal business owner and say, ``well, you are not in our database, where can we find you?'' They are up North, they are on the reservation, some of them do not have Internet, and some do not invest the marketing dollars to promote their businesses. So we are finding the website is a great way to continually send out information so that they can get in contact with other Aboriginal businesses and let them know about us.
The membership directory serves to prove that Manitoba has a large network of Aboriginal businesses. Our website is maintained and updated to reflect the current statistics of the Aboriginal Chamber of Commerce.
In the past month, we have hired Edward as our executive director and we have an administrative assistant. Again, these other organizations have stepped up and allowed us to use students, either from the University of Manitoba or Red River College, to help create the databases that we need to further build up our membership.
We recognize, though, that membership fees alone, are not enough to support the wages for our daily expenses. We have a big network of volunteer members and have created a number of committees to help us along and start creating seminars and networking sessions to help our members network with other businesses. The volunteers have given us a lot of valuable time and knowledge to ensure that we have been successful up to this point.
The ACC promotes and supports other organizations as well. If we know there is a program out there that is beneficial to a business owner, we definitely get behind them and encourage our members to join their efforts and go to their workshops, seminars and networking programs.
That brings me to the questionnaire that was passed to me and some of the key questions you have. The first one was to determine the key factors for success and the main obstacles to achieve the Aboriginal communities' involvement.
Some of the key factors for us at the chamber is the goal to foster a strong and competitive economic environment that benefits Aboriginal businesses of all sizes and sectors. We are trying to say that the ACC can be the portal between the Winnipeg chamber, the Manitoba chamber, between Aboriginal and non-aboriginal businesses. We can be that comfort zone because it is well known that the Aboriginal peoples are very shy, but if they have an office they can go to where there is a certain kind of comfort zone and people who understand their needs, then that is the first step of breaking down some of these barriers. If we are not there, we find that when they go into a networking session, they stand off to the side and are very quiet and shy, and walk away not getting to know another business owner or not making that connection. With the Aboriginal Chamber of Commerce, we guide them all of the way. There are always board members at these networking sessions; there are always other members there. Every time a brand new member comes in, we ensure that they meet the necessary people they need to meet to get their businesses up and going.
The ACC will ultimately become the voice of the Aboriginal business owners. We really believe that. The Manitoba chamber and Winnipeg chamber are very enthused that, again, because we have created this association, we can break down those barriers and network with Aboriginal and non-aboriginal businesses.
Our success as a chamber will be important to the next generation of Aboriginal business owners. As business owners right now, a lot of our members are long-standing business owners. Some members are brand new to the business world, but most of us have been in business for 15 to 20 years so we are not that shy. We can guide them along and help them realize that it is important that they get in there and promote their businesses and talk to people.
The main obstacles facing us are a lack of funding to market the ACC, and a lack of resources to help the chamber seek out Aboriginal business that are currently not listed in any directory or telephone book. So we definitely will be looking at forming a financial committee to help generate some revenue in the future to, again, put toward marketing the ACC.
Your next question was to identify and disseminate examples and case studies of Aboriginal successes to transform the opinions of decision makers The ACC has 94 members right now and we have not done one single membership drive because the first year was spent in setting up the structure. Our members are primarily through word of mouth but we are optimistic that, if we did start a membership drive, we would reach out and meet a lot more than these 94 members.
We are always being asked to give an example of a successful Aboriginal business owner or a success story. We figure that every member we sign up is a success story. We do not see that there are any members who have not displayed a desire to achieve, and a desire to work in this province and interact and network with other business owners, and more so the consumer out there.
One of the biggest recommendations that we would make at this time to government is to bring an awareness to the ACC. We need to really get on the map, so to speak. Right now, we are starting to get the recognition here in Manitoba, and we are starting to reach out to Saskatchewan and Ontario. We have been told and with our study this summer we found that more than 1,000 businesses across Canada are owned by Aboriginals. That is just from a very small study that we have done.
Over time, we will again invest more time and effort into researching this and finding out just exactly how many businesses are out there. But if we were to send back a message, our message would be to support us in any and all endeavours that get us out there and encourage Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal businesses to network with one another. I do not see that we are not important; we are very important. I think we are going to end up being a catalyst in the business world, very much like the Winnipeg chamber and the Manitoba chamber.
Thompson and The Pas have also come on board with us. It makes a big difference when we go up there and network with them because now they have contacts for Winnipeg. The smaller communities need to reach out and make connections here in Winnipeg, or even in other provinces, if they want to get the supplies and wholesalers they need to promote their products.
Senator Sibbeston: Our study is focused, up to now, on looking at Aboriginal peoples, usually First Nations, usually groups of people that work collectively to do business and often related to the resources — mining and oil and gas. That has been where we have seen Aboriginal businesses. But in your case, you are in an urban setting and so you have individuals that are in business. It would be interesting to know — what is it that makes for the success of a business person here in the city? Why is it that there are businesses, and why are there not more? I am interested to know — what are the factors that you think lead to the success of Aboriginal business people here in the city?
Ms. Sypulski: I think it is the networking, the opportunity to get out there. Be it small or large groups, we need to network a lot more and we need to find out if there are businesses out there that can give us supplies or that we can sell our products to. We need to create more networking opportunities for our members, and this is why we have partnered up with the Winnipeg chamber and the Manitoba chamber. The Manitoba chamber has been around for years and they are very successful but, at the same time, it gets redundant when you start networking with the same people all the time. So you need to open up those avenues and doors now and network with everybody.
All three chambers here in Winnipeg are starting to network on a bigger scale with one another so that their members can meet other people, brand new faces, brand new products. Then again, the cost of marketing is horrendous. When you can pay a small fee like $4.99 to go out for an evening and meet maybe 60 people, and walk away with two or three very good contacts, that goes a long way in promoting your business, in helping build your business.
Senator Sibbeston: I was thinking of even on a more personal level in terms of what motivates a person to get into business and do business, and all the blood, sweat and tears, as it were, that it takes to start and operate a business, the human effort, the inspiration.
Ms. Sypulski: What is motivation?
Senator Sibbeston: Yes.
Ms. Sypulski: Personally, I have been in business for 20 years, and have found that I had no problem whatsoever working for an employer. But I found that, given the wages and that they seldom go up, and given that my employers were instrumental in educating me and helping me run their businesses, I ventured out on my own. You make a lot more money on your own as opposed to working for an employer in most case scenarios.
If you have mentors out there who teach you how to do the proper financing, who teach you how to run a business and look at the dynamics like human resources, it is vast but it is intriguing. There is a certain type of satisfaction. I am finding that the younger people coming up are more motivated than was my generation. They are ready to jump right in there and they have no problem at all expressing their desire to put forth their creative ideas, whereas we were more laid back and we ``what if'd'' everything to death. The kids coming up now are going to jump right in and they are going to do it. If the programs are there, they know that the programs are there to help them and they know we are there to help them.
Senator Sibbeston: Most people in the world are just content to work for someone else and that is the general situation, but then there are those that separate from that group and become business owners. I was trying to get into what are the factors, what are the elements, what are the characteristics? What makes you different from the thousands that just work for and are content to work for wages?
Edward Kidd, Executive Director, Aboriginal Chamber of Commerce: What you are discussing is a lot of peoples' confidence, lack of management or financial skills, the networking part, and that is where the Aboriginal chamber would come into play. We work with the Canada Business Services and they have the Aboriginal Business Service Network. A lot of them were left alone, not so much now but before, so they were basically rummaging through the dark looking for avenues of support, some type of support system to help them to succeed.
Basically, that is what the Aboriginal chamber does. We are a conduit to work with information when it comes to funding, programs, financial management skills or mentoring. For example, one of our members would mentor them to help them through the process. A lot of people do not go into business because of the uncertainty. For me, I like to be self-sufficient and work for myself but, at the same time, that uncertainty of income is not for me. Other people have the tenacity and strength to go on. If it was just me, I could do it by myself but I have children and so I am weighing my options. So it all depends on the person; to narrow it down to one specific area depends on the personality.
Senator Sibbeston: Are the environment and climate amenable to Aboriginal peoples getting into business?
Mr. Kidd: In my experience, I understand both sides. I was raised in Halifax, adopted out to a non-Aboriginal family and came back into the Aboriginal community. People think it is similar or whatever. Some of it is similar but a lot is very different. I found it was an extreme culture shock so I understand both sides of the street. To come forward and talk to people is hard. There are a few Aboriginal people who are able to do that. For the others that you approach or talk to, it is easier to speak to somebody from the Aboriginal chamber because either we know someone from their family, or whatever the case may be, and that is used as a commonality to bring people together and make them feel comfortable in talking. If you talk to Aboriginal people, they have a great idea, but when you put it down on paper or discuss it with someone they do not know, they get nervous and the words do not come out as they want them to. So that is where we have to work as well.
Senator Hubley: I enjoyed your presentation this morning and commend you on the work that you are doing.
Ms. Sypulski, could you describe the business you are running and then share with us how other women are getting involved? Of your 94 members, what would be the percentage of businesswomen and are there any hindrances that especially affect women's involvement in business?
Ms. Sypulski: Right now, I own a construction company. We do home renovations, siding, soffit, fascia and eavestroughs primarily through the summer, and in the wintertime we do rec rooms and such. We have been doing that for about 10 years. I started out, initially, 18 years ago with a hot dog cart and, at that time, had an opportunity to buy into a much larger business, which was One Hour Photo Finishing. Because of the money involved, I did not have any problem raising the funds but, because it was such a big operation, I did not have the confidence to run it by myself. I had the experience but I hesitated. So that is when I took on the hot dog cart as my first venture because it was more manageable and I had great success with that. They make phenomenal money. I could not believe it, plus it was a lot of fun. By starting off in business with something manageable, it allowed me to build a lot of confidence and I really did not find there were that many barriers per se for me as a female unless I created those barriers myself.
From there, because again it was only a seasonal position, I started a cleaning business. There is a good market here in Manitoba for cleaning services, and it will continue to grow, but I have since phased that business out. I ran it for 15 years and we overlapped and eventually got into construction.
Speaking for myself, again, I did not find there was that many barriers. If you present yourself as a serious player in business, I do not think it matters what your gender is or what your culture is. I think people will ultimately respect you; you are there to do a job and run a business. A lot probably had to do with my character in that I presented myself seriously. People cannot take you for granted or abuse you or mistreat you if do not let them.
Senator Hubley: Have you had opportunities in your outreach — not necessarily networking with businesses — with young people, their organizations and career days at school to tell young people your story and encourage them to look at the successes that Aboriginal peoples have had in businesses?
Ms. Sypulski: One of my passions has been to teach customer service training, and I also own another business that focuses on customer service training consultants. I keep telling the younger people that it is important they are polite. Unfortunately, we have a society of young people who are good people but their basic values right across the board are rude. It does not matter what province you go to, customer service in this country has gone downhill big time, and we need more programs to get us back to the very basics of saying ``good morning, hello, thank you.'' Again, these are the basic things that I teach in my seminars.
I am not going to waste my time and that of a group of consultants trying to figure out where the problem originated; we are just taking the steps to correct it.
For the chamber, we have a lot of female business owners — in the group of the 94, I would say one-third are women. Women are more and more motivated all of the time to step up and start operating their own businesses. A lot of them have waited until their children were in school or pretty much finished schooling. We are not ready here to retire yet, and we do not experience the empty nest syndrome because we have kept ourselves busy and viable. Again, that is important with the Aboriginal chamber because, for some reason, Aboriginal females are not that shy; they are very aggressive.
Senator Peterson: Just as a clarification on your organization, under what umbrella does the ACC operate?
Ms. Sypulski: We are stand alone. We have come in under the Manitoba chamber but I am not sure on how the dynamics of that work. I was not part of that committee when it was set up. To the best of my knowledge we are stand alone. We are the first Canadian Aboriginal Chamber of Commerce. We have to follow the same rules and regulations as all the other chambers in Manitoba. There are set rules which we follow being under the Manitoba chamber but we are stand alone.
Senator Peterson: Do you operate like a chamber? Do you have monthly meetings, dinner meetings with speakers and that sort of thing?
Ms. Sypulski: Yes. We have regular board meetings. We have just started to develop our events programs with breakfast speakers and seminars but, in the beginning because of the lack of funding, we partner up with other organizations to offset these costs. As I said earlier, we do not want to recreate the wheel here. If we know of programs that already exist, then we approach them and partner with them, and ask that our members at least be allowed to be involved in their seminars or networking programs. They basically have opened the door to that idea and they love it.
Senator Peterson: If I were an Aboriginal entrepreneur and went to you, would you have access to all the different government departments? Do you know who the players are, do you know where the money is, do you know how the process works? Is that what you do?
Ms. Sypulski: Yes, we do.
Senator Peterson: Do you do that?
Ms. Sypulski: Well, we do not do any kind of funding in terms of helping them set up their businesses. We direct them to the agency. The Tribal Wi-Chi-Way-Win Capital Corporation, for example, I think set up the funding to help an entrepreneur get started. We do not do that but if somebody comes in and asks us how to start a business, then we would redirect them to the Business Services Centre in Winnipeg, the Tribal Wi-Chi-Way-Win Capital Corporation, the MMF or whatever organization could help them on their way to setting up their businesses. Hopefully, these organizations send them back to us as business owners and then they can become members of the Aboriginal chamber, which is where we help them network.
Senator Peterson: So there is no overlap and duplication with other First Nations entities?
Ms. Sypulski: No. We are going to try and avoid overlapping programs. Our board members have discussed this on a large scale. You do not want all these different organizations getting funding to set up sessions and workshops when basically, if we all know this workshop exists, why do we need to recreate that? We do not need to re-create it. We just need to partner with that organization to benefit from it. We do not need to waste the funding to recreate the whole thing.
The ACC is going to stay very focused in doing membership drives and seeking out Aboriginal-owned businesses. That is where our focus is going to be so that, at the end of the day, we will know how many Aboriginal-owned businesses are out there, and we will be able to encourage the Winnipeg chamber, the Manitoba chamber, the government and everybody to network with these businesses.
Senator Peterson: Are you more focused then on existing organizations rather than start-ups and new ones?
Ms. Sypulski: Exactly.
Mr. Kidd: To add to that, I have been to a lot of meetings with the Canadian Business Services centre and we did have a contract with the Aboriginal Business Service Network. We meet with government agencies and various Aboriginal organizations as well to hash out ideas and different contacts. We have talked to various amateur organizations and government to find out what is working, what is not, who are the key players, who we deal with, and the key contacts when it comes to financing. It could be a vice-president of one of the banks and Aboriginal banking. It could be someone from Aboriginal Business Canada, it could be the Business Development Bank of Canada, all of these different organizations that do funding at the very onset. We basically refer them to several organizations and, at the same time, we will hold their hand and say we will allow them to come into our networking system as well, to introduce them to other people that could be mentors or help out. So that is what I have been doing.
Senator Peterson: I think one of the problems is that they get bounced around to so many different agencies that they get discouraged and frustrated.
Mr. Kidd: I used to work for a bank where customer service was a big deal and what I would tell them is ``here is an agency, go to them, talk to them. If there is an issue or a problem, come back to me and we will work together.'' So now they are not left alone, they have somebody. They can go back and talk to Edward about the problem, the issue and how can we find a different avenue. I do not leave them alone. That eliminates that.
Ms. Sypulski: I want to add something. When we get people coming to the Aboriginal chamber, they immediately think we are a resource centre and we are not. But when they do come to us, we will make that phone call for them. We will phone the Business Service Centre and tell them we are sending this individual down with an idea or concept they are wanting to figure out, and we will put them in the hands of the person, again, so that they know what step is necessary to take to get them in business. But we do not think it is the Aboriginal chamber's job to do this. There are organizations set up already to do exactly that. If we start to do that, then we would have to create follow-up programs and I do not think that is necessarily what we want to do.
Senator Dyck: You were talking about remote communities and the use of your website, and it sounded as though it may be difficult for people in remote communities with individual businesses to be in contact with you. How would you access an Aboriginal woman up North who wants to set up a service in beading or selling moccasins to people outside her own community?
Ms. Sypulski: Currently, most of them have access to faxing so we fax them. We let them know when our networking sessions are going on. If they can be available to take one in, that is great. If they cannot, then we go to the next step and ask them to send us brochures and business cards, and when our members go to the networking sessions or workshops, we bring their information with us. We call it somewhat of a goody bag for the people who cannot be at these networking sessions. Even if they have not paid their $4.99 to attend, we do not necessarily care. We put all of their information brochures and business cards into our goody bag, and whoever is coming along gets that entire bag. When they go home, they have information on all the different Aboriginal-owned businesses that we currently have as members.
Senator Dyck: Would you have meetings, for example, in The Pas or Thompson so that you are covering the northern part of the province as well?
Ms. Sypulski: Yes, our president, Pat Turner, has taken in several sessions in The Pas and Thompson this summer and had a lot of success. We want to encourage more of that. We will also be sending Edward on trips to different reserves to connect with business owners and help them network and promote their products.
Mr. Kidd: Also, the Business Service centre is going to have a video conferencing network system that has been set out, and for something like this, we could basically use it for free to promote or talk to other people in the rural areas.
Senator Dyck: Are there partnerships you could make, maybe with high schools or whatever, where they might have some services available to make communication easier?
Ms. Sypulski: We have partnered with an organization in Winnipeg called Junior Achievement and they work with youth. Again, our president is passionate about young people and the young entrepreneurs coming up. We have held different workshops and sessions with young people and asked them about their concerns and how they see the Aboriginal chamber fitting into the mix of all of this, and what we can do to help bring them along.
Now, we may not be the ones to develop these programs but, by listening to them, we will definitely get on track and contact the organizations that already have these programs in place. Again, that in itself is going to be a key for the Aboriginal chamber. I do not see down the road that we are going to create a lot of programs because I cannot stress enough they are already out there, but we are going to research and be diligent in finding these organizations, and ensuring that whether you are a member or not and come to our office, that we can point you in the right direction and make sure you are on the right path.
The Chairman: I want to thank both Ms. Sypulski and Mr. Kidd for appearing before the committee and for working within the time lines because we have a tight schedule today.
Ms. Sypulski: Thank you and have a nice stay in Winnipeg. This was not as bad as I thought it was going to be.
The Chairman: We are pretty easy. I am back home. I have to look after my hometown.
I would now like to welcome Grand Chief Sydney Garrioch of the Manitoba Keewatinook Ininew Okimowin, the MKO, and his delegation. Because our schedule is tight today, I would ask witnesses to make their presentations anywhere from 10 to 15 minutes max so that senators can ask questions and hopefully gain some knowledge as to how to improve the plight of our Aboriginal peoples right across the country in the area of economic development. The floor is yours.
Grand Chief Sydney Garrioch, Manitoba Keewatinook Ininew Okimowin: Good morning and welcome to Winnipeg. With me in the delegation behind the group is Chief Joe Danttouze with Northlands First Nations and Richard Hart, our executive director, as well as Ashmede Asgarali of the Keewatin Tribal Council, the KTC. With me at the table on my left is Mike Anderson, Natural Resources Secretariat, and Joe Guy Wood, our advisor.
We apologize that there is no time to listen to our presentation in the second official language.
On behalf of the 30 Northern Manitoba First Nations, and 53,000 First Nations citizens represented by MKO, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to make this brief presentation on the involvement of the Aboriginal communities and businesses in economic development activities in Canada and the MKO region.
The combined traditional territories and homelands of the MKO First Nations cover almost three-quarters of the lands and waters of the Province of Manitoba. The citizens of MKO First Nations continue to occupy and inhabit our traditional lands as we have for many centuries before the arrival of European fur traders in 1680. For all of this time, our strength, peace and well-being have come from our faith in the Creator, from the application of our customary law, from our sense of community and from our stewardship of the lands, waters and resources. Our survival on the land has been guided by the collective knowledge of our ancestors, elders and community members being passed on from generation to generation, growing and becoming more valuable with each new experience.
It is an honour to meet with the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples to share the economic development objectives of the MKO First Nations and to discuss the specific requirements for the engagement of our treaty partner and trustee, Canada, in meeting these objectives.
MKO's initiatives to promote economic development within the MKO region are guided by the following principles:
Economic development must enhance and strengthen our identity as Nations and must reflect our customary law principles and traditional knowledge, including the concepts of our relationship to the Creator and our sacred duty to protect Keewatinak Askiy and Denesuline Nene, our traditional territories and homelands;
Economic development must be consistent with the treaty relationship, must uphold the honour of the Crown and must be consistent with the fiduciary duty of the Crown to the MKO First Nations;
Economic development must demonstrate recognition, respect, engagement and accommodation, and must be based on an equitable sharing of revenues and benefits;
The objective of economic development is to serve the needs of the people, to enhance quality of life and to restore and maintain community well-being;
The success of economic development initiatives is indicated by the availability and quality of community services, by measurable enhancements in quality of life and in the well-being of our people;
Economic development initiatives, including related legislation, policies and programs, must recognize and enhance our jurisdiction as governments, must support the development of our capacity to govern and must be culturally appropriate;
The design and delivery of economic development initiatives and programs must be directed by and conducted in consultation with our people and the appropriateness and relevance of our economic development initiatives and programs must be determined by our people;
As part of the environmental assessment of any economic development, traditional scientific knowledge and western scientific knowledge must be treated with equal value and importance.
The review and report by this committee on the involvement of the Aboriginal communities and businesses in economic development activities in Canada should reflect four components of the relationship between the MKO First Nations and Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada: the treaty relationship and the honour of the Crown; the fiduciary relationship; economic and fiscal relationships; and business relationships.
The MKO First Nations entered into the treaties described and known as Treaty No. 4, 1874 (the Qu'Appelle Treaty) Treaty No. 5, 1875-1910, (the Winnipeg Treaty), Treaty No 6, 1876 (the Treaties at Fort Carlton and Pitt), and Treaty No 10, 1906-1908.
Our forefathers, as representatives of our sovereign Nations, entered into treaty negotiations with Her Majesty the Queen based on the explicit recognition of our status as sovereign Nations and as holders of Aboriginal title to our ancestral lands, resources and waters. We agreed to negotiate the treaties based on the understanding that we would jointly ``deliberate upon certain matters of interest to Her Most Gracious Majesty, of the one part, and (our forefathers) on the other.'' We proceeded with the treaty negotiations based on the further recognition by Her Majesty that it was necessary ``to obtain the consent'' of our forefathers in order ``to open up'' our lands ``for settlement, immigration (and) trade'' by Her Majesty's ``other subjects.''
Her Majesty sought the consent of our forefathers to share our ancestral lands and resources with settlers and it remains that our consent is required before changes to the terms of our treaties will be accepted by our Nations or by our people. Mutual consent is the binding principle of treaty.
Today, the MKO organization is represented by a depiction of the treaty medal provided by Her Majesty's treaty commissioners as a symbol of the sacred relationship that exists between our Nations and Her Majesty. The treaty medal clearly depicts a treaty commissioner entering into First Nations lands, as a guest, to negotiate and enter into a treaty, to meet with and make an agreement with the leadership of the government within the homelands of each First Nation. The treaty medal represents our joint commitment to nation building with the objectives of sharing, peace and goodwill, and a relationship founded on the principles of mutual faith, recognition, honour and respect.
Our treaties reflect the solemn commitment and faith of First Nations to jointly enter into nation building with Her Majesty's government ``for as long as the sun shines, the grass grows and the rivers flow.'' This commitment incorporates the obligation to renew, develop and evolve our nation-to-nation relationship as times goes by. Our relationship and joint commitment to nation building is not frozen at one moment in history, but must be understood in its contemporary form as events take place and as our respective Nations grow.
Michael Anderson, Research Director, Manitoba Keewatinook Ininew Okimowin: Mr. Chairman, I would like to bring the committee's attention to the 1999 Marshall decision, in which the Supreme Court of Canada commented on the economic and fiscal relations between Her Majesty and First Nations in the context that would have been understood at the time of the signing of the original treaties, in that case with the Mi'kmaq people. The Supreme Court stated:
The trade clause would not have advanced British objectives (peaceful relations with a self-sufficient Mi'kmaq people) or Mi'kmaq objectives (access to European ``necessaries'' on which they had come to rely) unless the Mi'kmaq were assured at the same time of continuing access, implicitly or explicitly, to a harvest of wildlife to trade. If the law is prepared to supply the deficiencies of written contracts prepared by sophisticated parties and their legal advisors in order to produce a sensible result that accords with the intent of both parties, though unexpressed, the law cannot ask less of the honour and dignity of the Crown in its dealings with First Nations.
Although it is now the 21st century, neither Her Majesty, the Government of Canada, nor the minister will dispute that the treaty promises and provisions have yet to be fully implemented and that the treaty right to self-sufficiency and self-determination remains unfulfilled.
We find this passage in Marshall key — although it deals with the Maritime Treaty, unrelated to our numbered treaties in the Prairies — because the oral histories of our First Nations also confirm that the central objective and promise of the treaties entered into between our First Nations and Her Majesty is to achieve peaceful relations with self-sufficient First Nations peoples.
In order to achieve these treaty objectives, MKO recommends that this committee consider and make further recommendations on each of the elements we have set out under the four policy areas of central priority to the MKO First Nations.
The first — and I know that the Senate and Commons committees have heard our discussions on this, our being MKO — to recognize and protect traditional, treaty-based and commercial harvesting economies and livelihoods, particularly including the in-kind values of domestically harvested foods as well as social, cultural, health and other values. What we mean is that within the land base surrounding our communities, within that territory — approximately three-quarters of the surface area of Manitoba as the Grand Chief has mentioned — 15 of our communities are isolated and are accessible only by air, ice road or winter road, and with climate change that accessibility is becoming much more variable and worrisome.
The point really, though, is that a substantial amount of the population of our Nation depends upon and works with daily the resource base surrounding them, in a variety of traditional, commercial, and in-kind harvesting activities, as well as our larger First Nations who maintain their traditional pursuits as well.
It has been estimated that, although the commercial concerns for commercial fishing and trapping combined, for example, within Manitoba are less than $20 million, the in-kind replacement value of the game and fish harvested domestically, if it were to be purchased with cash at a store, is valued at between $35 million and $50 million per year within the MKO region. Those are tremendous values that form, by any measurement, a foundation of the basis of the economies of our Nations, often ignored and not protected officially by policy.
We note that 10 years after the Natural Resources Transfer Agreement — which I will talk about in a minute — had taken place, the Province of Manitoba began to allocate vast areas of traditional First Nations territories for various concessions such as muskrat ranches at Opaskwayak and Waboden and created what they called at the time the central trapline district. Well, this area was carved out of traditional First Nations territories, and Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada became very concerned that First Nations would be disposed of access to their resource base for food, commercial, economic and other purposes, as was the Hudson Bay Company.
The end result is that Canada entered into a series of agreements with Manitoba to create what we now recognize in the province as the modern registered trapline system. The promise made at the time, as evidenced in agreements that were signed in the late 1940s, was to provide exclusive access and use by the First Nations after which the trapline sections were named. So the relationship between the traditional harvesting economy and the economic viability of our Nations was recognized by Canada as early as the late 1940s, and entrenched in agreements between the province and Canada that emerged in the 1940s and early 1950s. This management system, the registered trapline system, continues today as the primary recognized means for identifying territorial extent, to identify the interests in lands by First Nations and so forth.
By social, cultural, health and other values, we mean the continuing activity of young people with their parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles, in harvesting activities — the health benefits of country food. We all know that we have enormously high rates of diabetes in the MKO region. The elders and traditional healers all say, ``eat country food and stay active.'' If we were to document the direct and indirect monetary value of the traditional economy, it is certainly manyfold greater than a simple measurement of the commercial returns.
In terms of the policy for Her Majesty, keeping people on the land is the most central tenet of First Nations policy, particularly in remote regions of Canada. In essence, that is the first policy aspect that we continue. Of course, access to land, those continuing activities are adversely affected by competing considerations for large scale economic development, such as forestry, mining and hydroelectric developments. So there is a competing balance of interests for which compensation in various agreements is not adequate to set aside these adverse effects on the traditional and income economies.
The second point is the broad category of implementing the treaty relationship and upholding the honour of the Crown. One area that is becoming highlighted, particularly recently, is whether or not the distinctive treatment of First Nations in economic initiatives is as a result of a policy, as government often claims, or whether in fact it is pursuant to a treaty.
It is our view that these distinctive treatments through co-management agreements, through economic development initiatives with First Nations affected by hydro power developments such as the Wuskwatim Project development agreement, and other arrangements with First Nations on a variety of developments are, at their root, part of the reconciliation of Aboriginal title that is evidenced through the treaties. These are not policy-based initiatives of government; they are pursuant to a treaty and, therefore, recognized and affirmed as rights and protected under sections 25 and 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.
Our recommendation is that Canada enact legislation that explicitly acknowledges that federal economic and business development, exemption from taxation, employment and procurement preferences, and other measures that are directed at and benefit First Nations are based on a reconciliation of Aboriginal title, are pursuant to a treaty and, therefore, are recognised, affirmed and protected in accordance with the Constitution Act, 1982.
We suspect that there will be greater significance to this recommendation in the future as this matter is considered, as policy or treaty based, and we wanted to bring this important matter to the committee's attention.
The other is certainly to address the adverse effect of the Natural Resources Transfer Agreement on commercial enterprises, resource access, resource-benefit sharing and revenue-sharing arrangements between government and First Nations. The MKO First Nations do not accept that the transfer of the resource management authority from Canada to the province was consistent with the terms of treaty. Our relations with the province in the resource sector are based on our objection, in our view, that it is inconsistent with the terms of treaty. Nonetheless, the effect of it, looking at Supreme Court decisions such as Horseman, was that the court believed that Parliament intended to modify the treaty rights established under the numbered treaties and, in the case of Horseman, it was Treaty No. 8. The court agreed that there was a commercial scope to the right confirmed in Treaty No. 8, but that Parliament intended to modify it through the Natural Resources Transfer Agreement and the enabling legislation that followed.
In its simplest terms, the end result is that our First Nations have been consigned to islands of poverty surrounded by our traditional lands as a result of a loss of direct access, and as a result of the court's view that the commercial right to hunt, fish and trap, harvest timber and so forth, was extinguished intentionally by Parliament and replaced with a broader right to hunt for food.
In the three Prairie Provinces, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, this is a central, critical aspect of our relations in terms of resource access, benefit sharing and resource revenue sharing — Parliament intentionally removed the commercial right that was the subject of the court's review in Marshall and replaced it with a broadened food hunting right, which brings me back to my first recommendation about the significance of the traditional economy.
We would also like the committee to consider other matters — for example, restoring the income tax exemptions of First Nation fishers, trappers, wild rice and timber harvesters and other harvesters. As a result of the Supreme Court's decision in R. v. Marshall, the creation of the connecting factors test and essentially a reversal of its previous decision in the Nowegijick case, the income of First Nations commercial fishers was taxed for the first time since the commencing of trade in the 1680s. For more than 300 years, our fishers continued their activities without being charged any fee or tax, until the imposition by the Canada Revenue Agency of taxation for the first time in 1995. So between 1680 and 1982, and 1995, our fishers engaged in commerce with Europeans without being subject to tax.
This has substantially had the effect, in combination with other external factors, in reducing the net incomes of commercial fishers in the MKO region by 45 per cent. So it is extremely important that Parliament examine the effect of Williams, and through regulation under the Indian Act or other legislative act, repair and remedy this mischief, in effect, in terms of an interpretation of the Indian Act by the courts. It is within the purview of Parliament to remedy this situation and it would have a substantial economic benefit to all of our harvesters.
The other would be to expedite the transfer of lands in accordance with the Manitoba Treaty Land Entitlement Framework Agreement. In many cases, our First Nations have been waiting for a land base, through the terms of the per-capita provision of treaty, for in excess of 100 years. The agreement is not moving along. Less than 5.6 per cent of all the lands that were promised under the 1997 agreement have been transferred to reserve status. There have been concerns raised, of course, in the Auditor General's report about slow progress and we echo them.
We also strongly urge the committee to propose legislation to ensure that resource revenue sharing, benefit sharing and resource access arrangements are required by Canada as policy and as a statutory condition of federal approvals or licences for energy, water and natural resources developments, where approvals from Canada are required — for example, the development of hydroelectric stations that require approvals from both Fisheries and Oceans Canada and Transport Canada, and in any other circumstance where federal authority is required. We believe this is a practical means to give effect to the treaty promise to share, and the treaty commitment to ensure self-sufficient and peaceful relations between Her Majesty and our Nations. This has not been considered but we are aware that such impact and benefit arrangements, and other means to ensure that the distribution of benefits from the project to the local First Nations Aboriginal population, is given effect routinely by the National Energy Board. For instance, in its approvals north of 60 for pipelines, the Norman Wells to Zama pipeline is a good example of off-shore gas arrangements and so forth. Where Canada has authority, offshore and north of 60, it chooses to exercise arrangements similar to this in its statutory and regulatory approvals.
As well, we recommend giving full effect to the treaty right to education, health care and other rights and treaty promises related to community self-sufficiency and well-being. These are discussed at length, but of course the capacity and education of individuals and their health are essential foundations for the conduct of successful economic pursuits.
In terms of economic and fiscal relations, there are a number of recommendations raised here. One of the aspects is to restore, by a policy review, the inequities that exist, particularly between remote and non-remote First Nations. As an example, Canada's policy, or that of the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, to provide for the operation and maintenance of facilities on reserve was established through a policy that existed prior to 1983, was first codified in 1983 and has continued through a 1998 modification. The result is that Canada bases the contributions and supportive assets on both a formula and a per-capita basis. The formula, for example, provides 20 cents of every estimated dollar of cost for the operation of a category three asset, which is a band office, an arena or a similar facility. The remaining 80 per cent is presumed to be paid for through on-source revenues, but there is a variability in on-source revenue generational capability between Nations, particularly remote First Nations and urban First Nations, such that it creates what amounts to systemic discrimination in the operation and maintenance policy that most adversely affects remote First Nations such as those within the MKO region.
This matter is critical because, of course, infrastructure, as has been raised by many of the previous presenters, is crucial as an element and a foundation for successful economic development within First Nations communities.
At page seven of our presentation is a series of discussions regarding matters in respect of business relationships and economic ventures, and I would ask Joe Guy Wood to comment on those.
Joe Guy Wood, MKO Economic Development Coordinator, Manitoba Kewatinook Ininew Okimowin: Thank you. I am the chairman of the MKO Economic Development Corporation. With me is Ashmede Asgarali who is also a board member of the MKO Development Corporation.
I want to mention in the few minutes that I have what we are doing up North in economic development.
First, I would like to mention that socio-economic conditions in our communities are Third World conditions, and that about 15 of our communities are fly-in-only most of the year, except for the winter road for about four weeks in a year. There are high suicide rates, infant mortality rates are high, education dropout rates and unemployment are all high, common in all of our communities. There is a lack of adequate education facilities, lack of other infrastructure facilities, inadequate housing, overcrowding, poor roads, inadequate water supply, poor and inadequate technology infrastructure like telecommunications, high-speed broadband connectivity, et cetera.
Up North we have a lot of resources and the main available resources in Northern Manitoba are the human resources. The population of MKO communities is approximately 60,000 strong with a birthrate 10 per cent higher than non-Aboriginal people, and approximately 80 per cent of those are employable and trainable.
In some communities, it is not all negative; there are progressive thinking communities. There are some First Nations communities that have developed the capacity to implement major economic initiatives in spite of obstacles presented, which I will be discussing. These communities take the lead in developing innovative economic development projects and provide a positive role model for other communities to follow, such as the Opaskwayak Cree Nation or OCN, Norway House and Nelson House.
Then, of course, we have an abundance of lands and natural resource in Northern Manitoba available for development. Two-thirds of the land mass in Manitoba falls within traditional areas of MKO First Nations. Seventy per cent of that is isolated and not touched by resource development. Most of the forestry, mining, animal products, plants, land, water and air are still open for First Nations development and control.
We have major opportunities in Northern Manitoba, and they are unlimited opportunities for economic development. Some of the opportunities identified in the economic development forum in 2003 were hydro development, transportation, tourism, construction, natural resources, retail and education.
Now, there are barriers to development. The First Nations of Northern Manitoba are experiencing great difficulties in having meaningful participation in the economies of the North. Some of these barriers are: racial discrimination; inadequate capacity and education to meaningfully participate; First Nations people not participating in policy development; budget cuts from economic development programs of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada; inflation going up and cost of living not addressed; access to funding from Aboriginal Business Canada is almost impossible; pan-Aboriginal approach by the federal government restricts First Nations access to funds; the special relationship between the First Nations and the federal government is not implemented; First Nations people are classified as special interest groups and are pitted against other Canadians by governments for political reasons; attitude and indifference by government bureaucrats towards First Nations people are not conducive to development; Indian Act restrictions prevent development; and there is no development fund in Manitoba for First Nations, unlike other provinces.
The initiative we started in Northern Manitoba is the development of an Economic Development Corporation. The local leadership identified economic development as a tool to generate wealth and financial independence to address the socio-economic conditions that I have mentioned. The Indian Affairs Minister invited MKO leadership to develop an economic development strategy and promised moral and financial support. The MKO organized a forum in 2003 to bring together northern people and the private and public sectors to identify opportunities, objectives, priorities and methodologies; we have given you a copy of that forum.
The strategy identified at this forum is that it will require a strong partnership of First Nations, all levels of government, and the private sector in order to consummate a meaningful joint venture partnership which will generate wealth and financial independence for all business ventures.
Concerning the establishment of an MKO Economic Development Corporation and the development of a fully integrated business plan, we believe this economic initiative will lead the First Nations in the North into full participation in the mainstream economy; to outstanding partnership opportunities with the private sector; and to a degree of financial independence which will have a positive and material impact on communities and northern First Nations people. Minimal funding was secured from federal and provincial governments and also from Manitoba Hydro for the development of this initiative.
We have a business plan and in there you will see the business opportunities available relating to Manitoba Hydro development; transportation, air and road, and service provider activities; financial, health care, employment and training and technology development; supply chain opportunities, petroleum products, food, clothing, lumber products, cement, et cetera; and the development of renewable and non-renewable natural resources.
The status of the project now is that our project has been totally stalled at the implementation phase due to a serious lack of funding to support the basic administration of our development corporation. There are positive MKO joint venture partnerships currently on the table and ready to be moved on.
One of them, Fire Spirit, is an MKO joint venture with a Winnipeg technology solutions company to secure a contract with the Manitoba government job referral service for the upcoming Manitoba Hydro project.
There is a petroleum distribution joint venture partnership being formed with MKO and some First Nations in Northern Manitoba to establish a distribution centre to provide petroleum products to Northern Manitoba communities and the private sector.
There is also a security guard project, a joint venture with a well-known successful Manitoba security firm to provide security services to the Manitoba Hydro project. There is a cement supplier, financial services, and also the commercialization of health services where there is lots of money.
Our recommendation is that we need financial support from the government to continue on with this project. The other one is that First Nations peoples must participate meaningfully in the design, development and implementation of federal policy that affects First Nations peoples. The economic development budgets of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada must be restored. The pan-Aboriginal approach to some First Nations must be reviewed and a specific First Nations economic development program restored. Economic development must be restored as one of the priorities of the Government of Canada. Federal policies must be revised to recognize the unique relationship that exists between First Nations and Canada.
A process must be established to review the negative impacts of the Indian Act on economic development, and federal policies that are mutually acceptable to both parties must be jointly developed. A Northern Manitoba Development Fund for First Nations peoples should be established. Canada should develop policies and enact legislation to ensure that resource revenue sharing, benefit sharing and resource access arrangements with First Nations peoples are a condition to any federal approvals or licenses related to energy, water and natural resource development. Canada should review its Aboriginal governance policies and establish a new department under the Privy Council Office. Thank you.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Self-sufficiency was mentioned several times in your presentation. If you were to have self-government, would it improve the lives of First Nations peoples?
Mr. Wood: The answer in short would be yes. Of course, it comes with financial and other requirements so, in a nutshell, yes, it would help.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: You also mentioned there were plenty of resources here — did you mean fishing, hunting, forestry?
Mr. Wood: A resource is a resource when somebody needs it. If nobody is willing to pay for it, it is useless. The resources exist but not the dollars to develop and the arrangements that need to happen with First Nations; they must be equal participants in this. First Nations do not have money. We are woefully underfunded. Without that partnership, we will not be able to achieve the self-government aspirations to which the First Nations aspire.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: What advice would you give to a First Nations person living in a remote community who is striving to start their own business?
Mr. Wood: Education, education, education, first of all, because that is one of the biggest downfalls. Second, because there is 90 per cent unemployment, equity is a big problem. Access to loans is another problem. So they really need nurturing at all levels. The will is there, the spirit is there, the desire for independence is there, but the general support is not as strong as it could be.
Senator Peterson: Did you separate the governance of MKO from band politics?
Mr. Garrioch: At the community level, they have their own leadership and they developed their own businesses. One area MKO is supporting is a collective approach and, to regionalize it, there are some components in our business development that are jointly developed by the First Nations, if I understand your question. So there are various categories of the development, the community level as well as the MKO region; there are two levels.
Senator Peterson: What stage are you at in finalizing acceptance of the treaties, since that seems to be a major issue?
Mr. Garrioch: The treaty process relationship that we maintain is special, as is the fiduciary that the government is very much responsible. We do not want the federal government to offload to the provinces and it is unfair, again, to proceed on that basis. We entered this relationship with the federal government, and that is the basis on how we want to develop the approach on businesses. There are so many things that we need to fill the gap, we cannot get on to the business relationship, certain things have to be followed up on the critical part. The way it is structured right now is that it is policy and program driven instead of on a treaty basis.
Senator Peterson: But therein lies the problem, does it not, that you are spending all of your time trying to finalize the treaties that will allow you to do the things that you have to do? You are really in a Catch-22 here until you can solve this — unless you are trying to do it in tandem and without the treaties being recognized. Because therein flows everything, all of your rights, all of your financing, everything flows from that. If you are spending all of your time trying to finalize that, how do you do economic development?
Mr. Garrioch: If we create a certain atmosphere and a process that should be mutually agreed upon by us as well with the federal government, it can be achieved in parallel approaches. So we have to create a process that we can work in.
Senator Peterson: What is holding up the issue of the treaty land entitlement?
Mr. Anderson: The view of MKO is that the provincial and federal Crowns are conducting what the Grand Chief has said in his letters to the respective parties amount to abuses of Crown authority, which are things that the Auditor General did not identify. It is our view that both Manitoba and Canada are taking positions regarding implementation that simply are not supportable by a plain and simple reading of the agreement, and neither party is —
The Chairman: Is that a treaty?
Mr. Anderson: Sorry, senator. For the record, it is the May 29, 1997 Manitoba Treaty Land Entitlement Framework Agreement. The agreement provides and clearly sets out a mechanism for proceeding with resolving and completing the per-capita selection and transfer of lands. Both parties have brought to bear new ideas, policies and concerns that were not incorporated within the language of the agreement. Because Canada is Canada and has the ability to defer and delay, it is implementing its new policy initiatives by simply insisting that that take place, whether or not it is supported by a plain and simple reading of the agreement.
We are also concerned that Manitoba and Canada are not listing their issues specifically because, of course, to settle a dispute between parties you need to know what the issues of the parties are. Neither Canada nor Manitoba has set out in detail its rationale for these positions.
The Chairman: We have an order of reference from the Senate to try and establish why these treaty land entitlements, or TLEs, in these specific claims are taking 14 and 15 years to get through the process. I do not know if you are aware of that, Grand Chief and Mr. Anderson, but we are conducting a study in the Senate and we are working with the present Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs. He is fully aware of what we are doing and he is supportive. It is taking nine years for some of these things to go through the Department of Justice. First of all, it takes three years to establish whether there is a legitimate claim and then nine years in justice. As a committee, we do our best to work on a non-partisan basis and try to serve the constituency, which is our Aboriginal peoples right across the country and, hopefully, we will be able to make some progress there.
In the case of Manitoba Hydro and building dams up there, are some of these dams built on traditional lands and treaty lands?
Mr. Anderson: I would say that all of the major developments, whether it is mining, forestry or hydro, are built on the traditional territories and homelands of the MKO First Nations.
The Chairman: Are the MKO First Nations benefiting from these resource developments directly by way of...
Mr. Anderson: Sadly, senator, with respect to the comparison of the value of the developments to the benefits and employment levels, the answer would be no, not commensurate with the proximity of First Nations citizens and with the commitment that First Nations citizens made to assist the development. The irreversible and adverse effects of the developments were justified in the 1970s and 1960s on the basis of domestic requirements — that is, benefits to Canada and, in particular, benefits to Manitoba.
Since that time, Manitoba Hydro has changed the profile of its operations to be export focused. For example, in 1991, when they signed an agreement with the Grand Rapids First Nation regarding Cedar Lake and the Grand Rapids generating station on the Saskatchewan River, Manitoba Hydro's net revenues were $18 million. Today, in this last fiscal year, Manitoba Hydro's net consolidated revenue is $415 million. The amount of the settlement paid to the citizens of Grand Rapids for the loss of the Cedar delta and the fishery that ran through Grand Rapids — which was recognized in 1894 in a report by the Fisheries Department to Parliament as the finest white fish lake in the world — does not measure against the current value. Manitoba Hydro is currently exporting more than half of all the energy it produces, and fully half of all the electricity exported from Canada. So the original arrangements and compensation settlements do not compare today, nor are they adequate, given the current value of Manitoba Hydro's electricity production.
The Chairman: What percentage of our Aboriginal peoples are employed by Hydro in these areas, and do any of the Aboriginal businesses up there benefit by generating commerce between Hydro and the people that are utilizing or benefiting from the resource?
Mr. Anderson: It is relatively small, although Manitoba Hydro does have procurement policies that I can publish and circulate. One of the documents that Joe Guy provided to you on the business plan has an appendix at the very back that describes their procurement policies. Their employment levels vary by project, somewhere less than 6 per cent as a corporation, and it goes up and down with summer hires. But the permanent operation staff at the Hydro stations are almost all non-Aboriginal persons, even though the dams are immediately adjacent to the communities.
Senator Sibbeston: I perhaps do not understand the context in which you are operating but in reading your submission, particularly the principles, are you proposing that this is the approach you are going to be taking when you are dealing with business people or with the government? I know businesses hold a different approach and philosophy to the way that the First Nations and the federal government may operate. A business operates quickly, they have their own ethos and approach, and their goal is profit. They do not really care too much, they just want to make money and operate efficiently, and with hard work accomplish what they want. All of the principles that you have set out are good philosophies, but I wonder if business will accept them. You are saying that we want economic development, we want business, but then we insist on these principles. When eventually you begin to deal business, I suspect that business does not really care; they just want to get into business, do work and make money. Now, when they are faced with all of these principles that you set out — concept of a relationship with the Creator and our sacred duty to protect the lands, treaty relations, economic development must be consistent with treaty relationship, must uphold the honour of the Crown — business may not care about that, business may not care about your relationship with the federal government and that there is a treaty in place. All they want to do is they just do business and make money.
I am just wondering why you are setting out these principles, which are laudable and good, but in a business world will they be accepted and will it lead you to be able to have good business relationships with business people?
Mr. Anderson: These are a few of the answers that I wanted to provide, and I thank Grand Chief for allowing me to reply. These are philosophies of the First Nations business approach. The last principle on page 2 talks about equal value and the importance of the use of traditional knowledge in environmental assessment; that is pretty much the edge of the science now. CEA and others discuss this. There are six federal statutes that talk about the incorporation of traditional knowledge in environmental assessment. We can provide the committee with a table we prepared about that. I can also say that, on the Wuskwatim Project Development Agreement, that the customary law of the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation is referenced in the agreement. There are specific requirements to incorporate customary law in the environmental protection plans and heritage monitoring and so forth, as a brief comment.
These are beginnings, but the thrust of it is bringing together two world views of development. In order for it to be relevant, and I understand that you had some evidence before you from Mr. Bombay, as part of your panel with NAFA. He talked about two different types of forest tenures, one being business driven and the other one Aboriginal driven. There was also information by Mr. Cornell who described culturally appropriate institutions and so forth. This is the edge of the business contact, the point of connection between First Nations and business. What we bring to the business environment are our customary laws and our standards and policies, and within that to develop wealth and to grow our communities and businesses.
It is an excellent question and it is really where the point of contact is, and why we are asking this committee to consider these recommendations for legislative reform and so forth in order to create that environment where we can flourish.
As a concrete example within Manitoba, I am proud to say that Councillor Garth Flett from the Opaskwayak Cree Nation is here. The Opaskwayak Business Development Corporation owns The Pas IGA, the Kikiwak Inn, which is a hotel in Northern Manitoba, the Otineka Mall, the OCN Shell, the Redi-Mix, and the Dollar Store and Food Town. All of these businesses are controlled by the Development Corporation. The Tax Court of Canada has recognized that, because all of the proceeds of these operations are being used for community purposes, they are tax exempt as a municipality in the eyes of the Tax Court, not through self-government or anything, but just under the mechanics of tax rules. These operations are tax exempt in the eyes of the Canada Revenue Agency because they take all of their proceeds and return them to the community, which is exactly and precisely the point of the principles set out at page two of the submission. We have a living, breathing example and a great success story in the Opaskwayak Business Development Corporation.
One of the things I forgot to add before on TLEs is that seven of 15 treaty land entitlement First Nations in Manitoba are standing at zero acres of land being transferred. One of the matters I had not mentioned before is that, as an economic loss, there is loss of use of these lands. Many presenters have appeared before you to talk about a land base being an essential pre-condition of economic development. We have an agreement to at least partially provide a land base, and it is being delayed at considerable cost to the communities.
With that, I would again thank Grand Chief Garrioch for allowing me to comment on the aspects of the relationship between our customary law and principles and the development of viable business.
The Chairman: I would like to thank our presenters for appearing before us today and sharing their concerns, which we will scrutinize closely. You have a bit of a complex situation where you are still negotiating treaty rights, which really I think is what Senator Sibbeston is concerned about. If you have not clarified treaty rights, it is really tough to get business to come and work. But we will take your presentation into serious consideration and we thank you again.
Senators, our next witnesses are representatives of the Manitoba Metis Federation.
Jack Park, Chair of Economic Development, Manitoba Metis Federation: On behalf of the Manitoba Metis Federation, MMF, and the Metis Nation of Manitoba, we thank you for the invitation and opportunity to address this committee. I appear on behalf of the MMF board of directors. With me this morning is Oliver Boulette, Executive Director of the MMF, and Don Roulette of the special projects department.
The Manitoba Metis Federation is the political representative of the Metis Nation in Manitoba and speaks on behalf of all Metis in the province. The MMF also represents the Manitoba Metis at the national level and is an affiliate of the Metis National Council.
The MMF has a long record of accountability and transparency. The MMF president and board of directors are democratically elected, and all the MMF-affiliated organizations and corporations produce audited financial statements that are available to the public. The MMF has members and representatives throughout the entire province, with seven regions and over 130 locals.
On behalf of the Manitoba Metis, welcome to our homeland.
It must be noted that the content of this document is by no means exhaustive or comprehensive. We have attempted to address as many issues as possible in the time and space allotted, and in doing so have undoubtedly provided only a glimpse of many very complex issues while excluding others. Therefore, Metis economic development policy is not limited to the issues addressed in this document.
The content of this presentation is reflective of the Manitoba Metis. It does not represent the national Metis economic development policy. Such policy is established by the Metis National Council.
Oliver Boulette, Executive Director, Manitoba Metis Federation: By way of introduction, the Metis Nation has emerged out of very unique circumstances. The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, RCAP, notes that and I quote from their report:
Historically, Metis cultures grew out of ways of life dictated by the resource industry roles of the early Metis. For those who served the fur trade, the birth of the unique Metis language, Michif, was a consequence of using both French and Indian languages. The need to travel inspired mobile art forms: song, dance, fiddle music, decorative clothing. The periodic return to fixed trading bases, the seasonal nature of the buffalo hunt and discriminatory attitudes all shaped settlement patterns...(Metis culture) developed organically, their characteristics determined by the social and economic circumstances that germinated and nourished them.
Metis culture is absolutely distinct and unique. It has its own customs, traditions, language, territory and government. In fact, the Metis, lead by Louis Riel, negotiated Manitoba's entrance into Confederation and are the founders of Manitoba. The Metis contribution to Manitoba and Canada as a whole is irrefutable.
Today, the Metis are a vibrant and diverse community inhabiting all regions of Manitoba, and engaging in all sectors of the economy. Metis people have varying levels of education and income and lead vastly different lifestyles. The Metis community includes traditional fishermen and trappers, as well as lawyers, architects and other professions. Metis communities are equally diverse spanning the spectrum from remote and northern to large urban centres.
Currently, there is an estimated 100,000 Metis people in Manitoba alone and that population is both young and reproducing at a faster rate than the non-Aboriginal population. In 1996, the national Metis population was 204,120; by 2001, it had reached 292,305, an increase of 30 per cent. In contrast, the general Canadian population grew from 28,847,758 in 1996 to 30,007,094 in 2001, an increase of only 4 per cent. The increasing Metis population presents both opportunities and challenges. In years to come, the Metis population will make up an even greater percentage of the Manitoban and Canadian labour force and they will be a key factor in Canada's economic success. However, the Metis face a number of challenges that adversely impact their labour force participation.
There are a number of economic development challenges faced by the Manitoba population as a whole, specifically those residing in rural and northern communities. Such communities are subject to higher transportation and production costs, a lack of readily available markets, and a limited work force. However, the Manitoba Metis face an additional set of challenges to that.
Such challenges can be grouped into what we have put as five themes: jurisdiction, infrastructure and geography, finance, human resources and market.
I will start with jurisdiction. Despite the Kelowna Accord, both the federal and provincial governments are unwilling to accept jurisdictional responsibility for the Metis. The Metis reside in a sort of jurisdictional no-man's land and too often fall through the cracks.
Both the federal and provincial governments utilize a pan-Aboriginal approach when addressing Aboriginal issues. However, this fails to recognize the specific needs of the Metis. The federal and provincial governments fail to recognize the Metis as a distinct Aboriginal people. There is a lack of meaningful federal and provincial consultation with the Metis regarding Metis economic development. I must commend this Senate committee today for hearing us; we are very pleased to be able to be heard today.
The numerous recommendations of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples have yet to be implemented. That Commission said certain things about the Metis as far as economic development goes, so did the Kelowna Accord, and we are doing it again today. We are saying those things, and very often in whatever forum we use, we continue to say the same things, regardless of the forum or arena.
I would like to turn to infrastructure and geography now. The isolation and limited size of many Metis communities prohibit the infrastructure necessary for economic development. The Metis do not have a land base from which it can invite industry to partner in our development. Educational opportunities and job experiences are limited. In the area of market, there are limited markets in many Metis communities and such communities often lack the economy of scale required to foster economic development. Limited markets and a lack of economies of scale in Metis communities often increase the cost of doing business in those communities, making investment returns less likely.
Metis communities lack funding for research and development, making it difficult to identify new opportunities.
When we speak of human resources, Metis individuals engaged in traditional economies lack a safety net able to compensate for a poor harvest similar to that provided to farmers through crop insurance. Barriers exist due to institutionalized and systematic discrimination in Canadian society. The Metis are under-represented in the full-time labour force, yet we are overrepresented in the seasonal and part-time labour force.
Finally, when it comes to finance, Metis communities have severely limited access to economic development funds, and such funds are grossly inadequate when addressing the lack of capital in Metis communities. The federal and provincial governments have, to date, declined to establish resource-sharing agreements with the Metis. The Metis are painted with a pan-Aboriginal brush and therefore lack funding models that adequately reflect Metis specificity and unique circumstances.
When we talk about our successes, the Manitoba Metis Federation, the MMF, has a long-standing history of good governance. Through precise management and positive vision, the MMF has built its resources and infrastructure to include a home office in Winnipeg, seven regional offices and numerous local facilities. The MMF has also grown its human resources to over 250 employees.
In addition to this growth, the MMF has also expanded its services and programs. The Federation has been successful in devolving Child and Family Services and developing an education institute. The Louis Riel Institute and Metis Child and Family Services are provincially legislated to provide Metis specific services to the Metis people.
The MMF also has a number of incorporated affiliates, including Pemmican Publications, Community Housing Managers of Manitoba, or CHMM, and the Louis Riel Capital Corporation, or LRCC, to name a few. CHMM is the housing institute of the MMF and it administers and manages over 1,400 affordable houses for Metis people across the province. LRCC is mandated to provide business advisory services and developmental loans to Metis and non-status Indian entrepreneurs. It is one of 58 Aboriginal financial institutions originally designed to become self-sufficient. At a time when most other Aboriginal financial institutions were leaning towards abandoning the concept of self- sufficiency, LRCC achieved this goal regardless of its limited funding. Such success is a testament to the value of applying prudent business practices.
The same business practices that lead to LRCC's success are instilled upon its clients and the result is a significantly decreased rate of failure. The failure rate of the average Canadian small business sits at approximately 80 per cent, while LRCC's clients experience a success rate of almost 50 per cent.
LRCC's success can be attributed to offering Metis entrepreneurs Metis specific solutions. Many economic development programs offered by the federal and provincial agencies are delivered to the Metis under preconceived guidelines and motives. Often, such guidelines are too constricting and do not reflect what is truly required or how resources are best acquired and utilized. This forces Metis entrepreneurs to alter business and other plans to fit a prepackage program mold. This ultimately waters down the initiative's effect and decreases its chances of success.
Metis communities are best served by community initiatives and such initiatives provide a much stronger economic base than large single industry corporations. As the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples notes:
The economic development of any community or nation is a process — a complicated and difficult one — that can be supported or frustrated. It cannot be delivered pre-fabricated from Ottawa or from provincial or territorial capitals. The principal participants, those on whom success directly depends, are the individuals and collectivities of Aboriginal nations. The role of Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal governments should be to support the process, help create the conditions under which economic development can thrive, and remove the obstacles that stand in the way.
The Metis Human Resource Development Agreement is renewed annually and is another avenue for delivering Metis specific programming. With a budget of $12.3 million, MHRDA provides Metis people with skills and employment training that leads to labour market success, increased self-esteem and greater economic independence. In 2005-06, MHRDA assisted well over 1,500 Metis, conducting 1,126 interventions with approximately 500 of those individuals gained meaningful employment. MHRDA has become an incredible success for the Metis Nation. It has remained accountable and transparent, while similar Aboriginal programs are struggling.
The MMF and the Metis community excel when afforded the opportunity to do so. Yet another example of Metis success is the MMF's partnership with the Manitoba Floodway Authority. The Federation achieved a 20-per-cent employment equity provision and a set-aside for Aboriginal businesses in the floodway construction. Metis people, and in particular Metis businesses, have been tremendously successful under the equity and set-aside provisions.
I will turn now to our recommendations. The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples was a comprehensive cross- country consultation with Aboriginal people. RCAP'S final report is a massive 1,500 page document that includes numerous well-founded recommendations. To date, very few of those recommendations have been implemented and such implementation is long overdue. The federal government must implement the RCAP recommendations.
The MMF encourages the federal government to uphold the spirit of the First Ministers meeting in Kelowna and support the policies and programs agreed upon. Furthermore, the MMF encourages the federal government to honour the former government's willingness to accept jurisdiction of Metis people.
The Metis are a Nation and deserves recognition as such. To this end, the MMF implores the federal and provincial governments to undertake negotiations with the Metis on a nation-to-nation basis with the intention of realizing a land base.
The need for Metis specific policies, programs and services is difficult to overstate. The Metis have been lost in the federal and provincial government's pan-Aboriginal approach and this has adversely affected economic development in Metis communities. Metis specific programming must be established to increase access to education and improve Metis success rates. The Metis require additional education support from kindergarten through post-secondary that addresses Metis needs and reflects Metis culture.
The Metis require improved access to economic development resources including start-up and equity funds. This is best achieved through federal and provincial recognition of Metis specificity and nation-to-nation negotiations. This will enable the development of Metis specific economic development policies and programs and allow for the advancement of Metis communities.
Metis economic development requires increased investment in Metis communities. However, such investment is not limited solely to financial capital; it must include social capital as well.
One avenue of economic development that has been successful for other Aboriginal people is resource sharing. The MMF wishes to emulate such models and negotiate Metis specific agreements with the federal and provincial governments that include resource sharing provisions. Resource sharing will provide Metis people with the capital necessary for economic growth and community development.
Traditional economies must be encouraged and supported. Many Metis choose to remain in their traditional communities and spend a lifetime acquiring the skills necessary for participation in a traditional economy. Such individuals are very proficient at what they do and possess a number of highly specialized skills. These community members leave a legacy of traditional knowledge and a greater understanding of Metis customs which fosters Metis identity and a closer connection to the land.
The MMF represents the Metis Nation in Manitoba and it seeks relationships with the federal and provincial governments on a nation-to-nation basis. Such relationships would provide access to additional economic development resources, thereby increasing the capacity and self-reliance of the Metis Nation.
The Metis Nation, at present, occasionally lacks the resources and capacity to undertake certain economic development initiatives on its own. Where this is the case, the MMF recommends joint ventures. Joint ventures increase available financial and social capital and provide the Metis Nation with valuable opportunities to build working relationships and expand its organizational repertoire.
The MMF seeks to promote and expand its previous successes. To this end, the MMF encourages the emulation of the MHRDA model. The MHRDA recognized Metis distinctiveness and in doing so has become quite a success. Metis specific programs, policies and services are the key to Metis economic development. The MHRDA model includes a Metis specific funding provision that the Federation would like to see applied to other sectors.
In order to foster economic growth in Metis communities, the federal and provincial governments must facilitate and support meaningful consultation with the Metis Nation. The Metis have the largest vested interest in the Metis communities and are most acutely aware of unique challenges and potential solutions. Metis economic development will begin at the grassroots level and the federal and provincial governments must respect and acknowledge that reality.
Economic development requires innovation and imagination. The Metis community is well equipped with both. The MMF seeks to capture all opportunities possible by encouraging ``value added'' industry in the Metis community. Job creation is the backbone of economic and social development, and ``value added'' will promote additional job creation.
Opportunities for economic development must be sought out and identified. This requires research and development capacity. The MMF requires the development of such capabilities through the establishment of Metis specific policies designed to promote research and development in Metis communities.
Generally speaking, Metis economic development requires capacity building in the broadest sense. This is best achieved through the development of Metis specific policies, programs and services. Recognizing Metis specificity is one of the first steps towards building the capacity of the Metis Nation.
In conclusion, Metis economic development begins with consultation at the community level. Metis communities understand their distinct needs and can readily identify the conditions required for economic growth. The federal and provincial governments must uphold the spirit of the First Ministers meeting and work towards implementing the policies and programs identified in Kelowna. Similarly, the findings of RCAP must be reviewed and implemented.
It must be noted that there is no single magic bullet for Metis economic development. Metis economic development will require a comprehensive, multi-dimensional, Metis specific approach. Such an approach will undoubtedly carry a price tag. However, the cost of maintaining the status quo and doing nothing is much greater. Economic development is, by extension, social development and the advancement of Metis communities is best achieved through Metis specific economic development policies. This warrants repetition; Metis economic development requires a Metis specific approach.
Mr. Park: This concludes our presentation and, once again, on behalf of the Manitoba Metis Federation and its people and our president, David Chartrand, who sends his regrets today, thank you for this opportunity. We welcome your comments and feedback.
The Chairman: As one who grew up here in Manitoba, I have a couple of quick questions. What percentage of the Metis live in urban areas?
Donald Roulette, Executive Advisor on Strategic Development, Manitoba Metis Federation: In Winnipeg, of the average population, my understanding is about 52 per cent to 56 per cent of Metis are in Winnipeg.
The Chairman: Of the total Metis population in Manitoba?
Mr. Roulette: I think it is 33 per cent.
The Chairman: That live in the Winnipeg area?
Mr. Roulette: I do not have that number. I was giving you the Manitoba numbers.
The Chairman: My question is that you are asking for educational assistance in these areas. Are you referring to the non-urban Metis? I enrolled in the normal school system and went through it here in Manitoba. Are there restrictions or is there something you feel is required for the Metis population that is over and above the needs of the non- Aboriginal peoples?
Mr. Roulette: What we have been finding is that if there is movement from the rural areas into the urban areas, the educational levels are not quite the same. There has got to be some specific programming that will encourage and support completion of those grades. The drop-out rates are still unacceptable.
Senator Sibbeston: In the Northwest Territories where I am from, the history and legacy of the Metis is quite outstanding. They were the ones who were initially in the forefront of the development that occurred in the North, as riverboat pilots, interpreters and a whole slew of other things. Generally, we are very independent so there are a lot of Metis people in the North who have been very successful in business and all of the professions and so forth.
I sometimes think as Metis people, our biggest hindrance is the fact that we are so independent. We do not need government. We just kind of make our way in life and succeed. In Manitoba here, I suspect there are a lot of Metis people who are successful in professions and in business and are not as dependent on organizations to represent them and so forth. Could you comment on that?
Also, could someone would comment on the Louis Riel Capital Corporation? That seems to be your business arm that provides advice and money to Metis business people. How many Metis businesses are there?
Mr. Roulette: Let me try to address the first part. I agree with you that sometimes our independence has cost us. Without a doubt, there are many very successful Metis people. But there was a time when it was not comfortable to say you were Metis. It is only in the last 10 years or so that it is all right to be able to say that now.
Our MMF membership numbers and, in fact, the numbers in the Canadian stats indicate that too. There are people more willing to identify as Metis people. I agree with you that sometimes our independence did that but I think there is still room for improvement.
I will undertake to provide you with information on the LRCC successes and the number of people they have. I will give you the specifics of that report. I do not have it with me but I can get it for you.
The Chairman: Is that a credit union type of operation?
Mr. Roulette: No, it is an Aboriginal lending corporation. It was...
The Chairman: Is that a bank type of role?
Mr. Roulette: It lends money out.
The Chairman: Risk capital?
Mr. Roulette: Yes, it is risk capital, and we charge a bit more interest; our interest rates are at 10 per cent. It used to be that it was a bank of last resort but not anymore. Apparently we are fairly competitive with the interest rates, which was really a big hindrance. There was supposed to be $7.5 million put in that fund in the early 1990s, but they only put $3.5 million in. Just a year or so ago, they increased that to $5 million, but they are still underfunded from where they originally were. The starting block was $7.5 million. But it has a very good success rate and has helped a lot of people.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: According to Statistics Canada, Metis women have lower rates of unemployment than men. What in your view accounts for this difference?
Mr. Roulette: Lower rates of unemployment?
The Chairman: Metis women have lower rates of unemployment than Metis men.
Mr. Boulette: If we just look at our office, of approximately 250 to 300 people, 60 per cent are women that work in our office. We do not have an explanation for it.
Mr. Roulette: We tried to figure out how we could get those stats to reflect the gender equality in our presentation. We just could not do it.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: I have a short question. All other nations are recognized by Canada. Why is it that the federal and provincial governments fail to recognise Metis as Aboriginal people? Is it because you have distinct Aboriginal people or is it because of land base?
Mr. Boulette: I think there could be a couple of things. We are probably the newest kid on the block since 1982 included in the Constitution. I think institutions and systems take a while to adjust and get their heads wrapped around those things. I know, being a long-time public servant myself, in my previous life I was a deputy minister for the Province of Manitoba for four-and-a-half years for two different departments, and an assistant deputy minister for 12 years. It takes a while for the public service to start to get its head wrapped around these issues in order to best advise their political masters. I think it is just the slowness of the system to be able to react to that, when you only have so much in the public purse and you are trying to figure out how to share those resources. Nobody wants to take away from anyone and nobody is prepared to add new resources to the pot, which I think probably should happen. In answer to that, I think it is just that people are slow to accept it, but the Constitution says very clear that we are one of the Aboriginal groups in this country.
Mr. Roulette: The courts have actually recognized our rights as well and I honestly felt that, with the Kelowna Accord, the political will was there to start making these changes. The bureaucratic rule, like Oliver says, seems to lag behind a little bit. I do not know if they are threatened by us.
The HRDC development agreement that we signed creates a lot of work for our people and it took away some people's jobs from the bureaucracy as well. I do not know if that is the factor, I am not really sure. But it has been slow in coming. Again, I hope that the political will is there. I hope that the technicians and bureaucrats will follow as well. The courts have recognized us, there is no doubt about that.
The Chairman: To be more definitive, the Powley case is the case that I have been a close observer of in Ottawa from when I went into the House of Commons. The Powley case, which reinforces what you are saying, really is the one that recognized the fact that the Metis are part of section 35 of our Constitution.
Mr. Roulette: It has to be restated too that we have Aboriginal rights. The definition, or the defining of those rights is what is taking the time. But we have Aboriginal rights, section 35 of the Constitution says that.
Senator Peterson: Could you clarify a statement that you made in your presentation? It had to do with Metis individuals engaged in traditional economies lacking a safety net to compensate for a poor harvest similar to that provided to farmers through crop insurance. Are they not able to buy crop insurance?
Mr. Roulette: No, not at all. If you have 80 nets and if the market is bad, all you will use is 40. If your nets get damaged in the wind or for whatever reason they get damaged, you are on your own. A few years back, there was an early wind that came in through Lake Manitoba and wiped out all of the people's nets. We ended up helping them out. There was no other way. But it is not just the safety nets like the farmers have; there are no benefit packages in there as well for the local people in those traditional economies. They do not have access to health care, they do not have pension plans and all of those things, none of that is there. In this day and age there ought to be.
Senator Peterson: I do not understand how that is different from anybody else. If I was doing that, would I not have the same problem?
Mr. Roulette: I imagine you would too.
Senator Peterson: So it is no different. You are not saying it is because you are Metis that you are excluded from these things?
Mr. Roulette: Exactly, but we could not get crop insurance. We have a hard time getting building insurance in some of our communities.
Senator Peterson: Why?
Mr. Roulette: Fire departments are volunteer; for whatever reason, they are hard to get.
Senator Peterson: That is the same for everybody else too if you live there. I just wondered if you were different.
Mr. Roulette: We tried to limit our comments to what we thought was Metis specific. With the general stuff, we understand everybody has that same problem. That is why we tried to cut it down to what was Metis specific.
Senator Peterson: Maybe we should go on that vein, because you do talk about that a lot. Could you give me an example of what a Metis specific economic program would be as opposed to others, and could you also give me an example of what would be a Metis community distinct need? What would be an example of that?
Mr. Boulette: If I could start off with the Metis specific, we do not have any specific funding identified for Metis needs other than from other government funding. When we go to governments, they do not have anything for us. They have for the general public, they have for First Nations, they do not have for us. So that is what we are saying — if we had a specific set-aside to access the ability to economic development, that would be specific.
Senator Peterson: You are talking money?
Mr. Boulette: Money, human resources.
Senator Peterson: Not a specific program, just access to money?
Mr. Roulette: But not only money — I do not want to leave that impression with you. There has to be some land or places that they can work. There has to be better infrastructure in these things. These are specific and unique to a lot of our communities. Money is not the only answer to this. There are already existing resources that could be reprofiled, and then there are different ways that that can be addressed.
The Chairman: You have a court case going on over land?
Mr. Roulette: Yes, we have mentioned that. Again, it is in the court system and we did not think this would be the place to address that specifically, because there is a whole host of stuff that would come behind that. But on Metis specific programs you are asking about, the strength of our communities, a lot of it is in these traditional industries that we have. In fact those are not just good for our community, they are good for all Canadians. Where we do the fishing, the trapping, the berry picking, all of those things help the economies or the eco-systems that are there. Those are a benefit. They have to happen. We fill a void in that and people really enjoy the work they do there. You could not get them to do anything else. A lot of this has become, unfortunately, a labour of love. It is not that you make a big living on this anymore. There are too many different things that hold you back, whether it is environmental groups that stop the trapping or the fur industry and stuff.
Senator Peterson: If I could just give you an example for your Metis specific question — the provincial government has a revenue sharing arrangement with municipalities and RMs for casino money, for economic development. They have that with First Nations, which is specific to them. We do not have that for the Manitoba Metis Federation.
Mr. Roulette: We do not have access to revenues from the Manitoba government for specific Metis economic development the way other jurisdictions or governments do. That is an example of when we are saying specific, it is not there.
Senator Peterson: Okay. Then you don't have a framework or understanding or agreement with the federal government — are you really at square one? To get all these things —
Mr. Roulette: Sure. They keep pinballing us back and forth. We thought in Kelowna finally it was going to be addressed. The Prime Minister of this country speaking to the premiers and the other leaders said that the federal government accepts primary responsibility for all Aboriginal people, including the Metis. We thought this was the beginning of things to come. I think it will get there. It will just take a little bit of time, that is all.
Senator Hubley: I come from the East Coast, so I certainly would not, in any way, suggest that I understand the situation in the West. I must say through our chair and through former Senator Chalifoux, the plight and history of the Metis was certainly brought to the Senate and to Parliament. The difficulty is that a good business plan is a good business plan, and that should transcend the ethnic background of the participants. I am wondering if, in looking for a Metis solution or a Metis way of generating your economy, if you somehow missed out on some opportunities that could be more generally presented to the rest of the country? That is my first question.
Since I do come from the Maritimes where we do have a vibrant culture, and when I think of the Metis, I think of their vibrant background in culture and music and dance, which you described quite aptly as very distinct. Have you been able to use your heritage in any way to become an economic factor itself, that could be promoted through tourism? I do not want to go on too long, but I am just wondering if you could respond to those two concerns of mine.
Mr. Roulette: Let me jump address the tourism issue. It seems like the Europeans are attracted to Aboriginal powwows, drums, sun dances and those things. The Metis are identified primarily by the Red River jig and some of the dances. For the Metis, tourism is not as prominent; it has not had the exposure for the length of time that the First Nations have either. In fact, they have specific money that helps them with promotion that we do not. I think when we get that, we might be able to get there as well. This good business plan that you talk of should transcend some of the obstacles to get started. At the beginning there has to be some help and I think towards the end of it there would be something. But there are really limitations on a lot of these things too.
Now, how many more gas bars and convenience stores can we put in? Those markets are filled primarily by First Nations already. They have the ability to get these things started where we do not. Even if we did get the money, there would be no sense opening another gas bar or convenience store somewhere. You would only end up hurting the one that is already there.
For lack of a better word on my part, affirmative action has to be included in the front-end development and obviously with a sensitive clause in it that would stop that. We should say that the Metis people are taxpayers. We do not get back in taxes what we put in. As an organization, we sent back about $3 million last year in source deductions. As a Nation, we put around $50 million in the system and we do not get anywhere near that. The core funding for the MMF from the federal government is $440,000, from the province it is $220,000.
Senator Dyck: One of the things mentioned in your presentation was that you would like to have access to resource sharing, as other Aboriginal groups have had. Could you provide us with a specific example of what that might be?
Mr. Boulette: Manitoba is getting ready to build a couple of large power dams, megaprojects. First Nations have had the opportunity to have an equity in that, revenue sharing with the Manitoba government through its Crown corporation. We would like to be afforded the same opportunity. Currently, we are looking as well at how we can share the natural resources of this country.
Senator Dyck: When you think of communities around these dams, for example, are the Metis communities and the First Nations communities mixed, or are some mixed and some together? How would you describe it geographically?
Mr. Boulette: They are together but they are separate. Beside every First Nations community there is usually a small Metis community because they could not live on the reserve amongst our Native communities, but they do share the North and they share family. They do not live necessarily in the same place. They are affected equally by hydro developments in the North, but do not always share the benefits of those developments.
Mr. Roulette: The other thing that has to be put in that community is the Bill C-31 factor because the children of many of these families go back to Metis. There is going to be a problem with the migration between the two communities. Specifically, housing is going to become a big issue.
The other example that I want to use for resource sharing is in Saskatchewan where the gaming revenues have a Metis status. Revenues do not go to the Metis Nation in Saskatchewan but there is a group that receives funds on behalf of Metis, which the Metis can access. It is those kinds of things that we can start looking at. It would help us get away and become more self-sustaining, which is ultimately the goal.
The Chairman: As I said before, time is our greatest enemy. Unfortunately, we are out of time. Nobody knows better the challenges facing the Metis people in this country than some of us who have worked in that file.
I would like to thank you for coming and making your presentation. Unfortunately, we have run out of time. Please give my greetings to your president.
Our next witness is the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, represented by Ian Cramer, Senior Business Advisor.
Ian Cramer, Senior Business Advisor, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs: On behalf of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, thank you for the opportunity to appear today. Grand Chief Ron Evans is unavailable to make the presentation as we are organizing a rally today in Winnipeg to protest against the lack of funding for First Nations health. He is busy with that rally. If you have a lunch break, you can go down to the legislature and hear what is going on; that is where our Grand Chief will be.
I think everyone has copies of our presentation. I am just going to to walk you through it. I will basically read what is in there so everything that I say should be in the document.
There are 64 First Nations in Manitoba with a total membership of 120,000 people, which represents about 11 per cent of Manitoba's population. More significantly, the First Nations population is the youngest and fastest growing segment of Manitoba's population.
While Manitoba's total population is stagnant, the First Nations population continues to grow at a rapid pace.
Consider some of these following statistics from the Government of Manitoba:
23 per cent of Manitoba's children age 0-14 are Aboriginal;
From 1996 to 2001 Manitoba's Aboriginal population grew 17 per cent while the non-Aboriginal population actually decreased by 2 per cent;
The annual growth rate for First Nations peoples projected from now until 2016 is 2 per cent per year, while the non-Aboriginal growth rate in Manitoba is projected to be 0.2 per cent; and
In less than 15 years, Aboriginal people will make up about 25 per cent of Manitoba's labour force.
The imperative issue of our time is the growing and youthful First Nations population. While the rest of Canada's population is aging and concerned with retirement and old age issues, the First Nations are young, hopeful, and concerned with issues of education, training, careers, entrepreneurship, and sustaining the natural environment.
A growing, diverse and healthy First Nations business and economic development community will be crucial to the future of First Nations people and this country as a whole.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and unless we significantly strengthen the First Nations economic position in this country, Canada's overall economy will not be as strong as it could and should be. This is particularly important in provinces like Manitoba where First Nations make up a significant and rapidly growing percentage of the population.
Turning to economic development specific, in terms of business development, many organizations and government departments have recently documented the rapid growth of Aboriginal entrepreneurialism in Canada. Industry Canada states that, since 1981, the number of self-employed Aboriginal people grew by 170 per cent, which is two-and- a-half times faster than the national increase.
This impressive rate of growth is long overdue and part of the First Nations economic renaissance. In 1996, Industry Canada found that about 20,000 Aboriginal people were self-employed and, more recently, it is estimated that there are 27,000 self-employed Aboriginal people in Canada. In Manitoba, it was estimated that in 2003 there were nearly 1,000 Aboriginal businesses either owned or operated by or in partnership with Aboriginal people or organizations. That survey was conducted by the Aboriginal Business Leaders and Entrepreneurs. While that organization is no longer in existence, a new organization has emerged in Manitoba and that is the Aboriginal Chamber of Commerce.
The Aboriginal Chamber of Commerce is currently part of the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce and is seeking to lead the way to being a Canada-wide ACC. They are also forging relationships with Nunavut and the American Indian business community.
This economic relationship of east/west and north/south resembles the pre-European economy of North America's indigenous population. While this growth in entrepreneurship and business development has been substantial over the past 25 years, our challenge is keep this momentum going for the next 25 years and more. This is crucial, especially due to the fact that the First Nations population is very young and growing rapidly. But population growth is only one reason. We have to look a little deeper into the economic landscape to see what else is going on.
With regard to employment rates, the province reports that the employment rate for First Nations people in 2001 was 38 per cent, which is about half of the Canadian average of 65 per cent. In Manitoba, the unemployment rate for all Aboriginal people who have completed college is 18 per cent, yet for the non-Aboriginal college graduate, it is only 5.2 per cent.
In Winnipeg, where a significant number of First Nations people live, the employment rates are a little better. The 2001 census indicated that there was a 55-per-cent employment rate in Winnipeg of Aboriginal people compared to 65 per cent for non-Aboriginal people. The unemployment rate was almost 15 per cent for Aboriginal people in Winnipeg in 2001, three times higher than the 5-per-cent rate for non-Aboriginal people.
Both these figures show vast improvement over 1996 but also present some stark realities. If the Winnipeg stats are accurate, then the on-reserve and rural statistics must be much less than the Manitoba average employment rate for Aboriginals of 38 per cent.
What reasons are there for the Winnipeg Aboriginal population and the college graduates' employment rates being only half of the non-Aboriginal rates? Our paper does not delve into racism as a factor in and of itself. We try to examine and explain some other factors that have contributed to these unfavourable statistics, but racism should still be in the backs of your minds in terms of one of the reasons.
However, before we look at these, we must consider some other statistics on income. According to the Province of Manitoba, during the 1990s, the average annual income for an Aboriginal person was a mere $13,000 compared to the Manitoba average of $21,000. Winnipeg showed similar results from the 2001 census. The median income for the Aboriginal population was $14,500, while it was $23,000 for Winnipeg's non-Aboriginal population.
The reality is clear and has been summed up in a 2001 report from the Canadian Human Rights Commission which stated that, ``Aboriginal people remain among the most disadvantaged in the country.''
Further to that, there has been a human development index, or HDI, completed by the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs which reports on First Nations across Canada. Originally, this index was used by the United Nations to compare development at an international level. Indian Affairs has used this HDI to compare Aboriginal and non- Aboriginal populations in Canada. It has also compared First Nations HDI to other First Nations across this country.
The HDI is made up of three components: income, life expectancy and education. It is interesting to note that, from 1981 to 2001, the gap between education levels of First Nations citizens to non-First Nations citizens in Canada has narrowed by 59 per cent, while the gap in income has only narrowed by 19 per cent.
This supports the statistics from the Province of Manitoba cited earlier that, while First Nations citizens have become more educated, they are still not being hired for the jobs that would reflect an increase to their income levels. Furthermore, the HDI study shows that, over the course of the next decade, 43,000 new jobs will be required to maintain current employment levels and, to achieve employment rate equity with other Canadians, the First Nations people of Canada must get 174,000 new jobs.
Most importantly, the quality of life of Manitoba First Nations is the lowest in Canada. The HDI figures demonstrate that Manitoba First Nations not only have the lowest absolute HDI rankings, but the gap between Manitoba First Nations and the rest of Manitoba is the widest gap in the entire country.
Manitoba also holds the largest gaps in education, income and life expectancy.
I now want to discuss the remoteness factor. Manitoba has 64 First Nations, including six of the 20 largest bands in Canada. Nineteen First Nations are not accessible by an all-weather road, relying only on air transportation and a very short winter road season. Our neighbour to the west, Saskatchewan, does not have any First Nations as isolated as these. Another contributing factor to the isolation is the lack of high-speed Internet services that the rest of Canadians enjoy.
As a result of geographic isolation, and the lack of basic infrastructure that is available to the vast majority of other Canadians, Manitoba First Nations communities are segregated socially and economically from mainstream Manitoba, and their economies historically have been dependent — and by historically I mean over the last 50 to 75 years — on federal transfers.
With respect to specific economic issues, while it is evident from the statistics that the economic picture of First Nations is improving somewhat, it is also evident that we have a long way to go to attain an equal standard of living in this country.
The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, in the section on Levers of Economic Change, stated that:
Transforming Aboriginal economies from dependence to self-reliance will not be easy. The greatest boost for most nations will come from access to a fair share of lands and resources.
In addition to land and resources, the First Nations need the access to capital that will afford them an opportunity to play a significant role in the economic development related to those lands and resources.
Economic development funding cuts, particularly from the Department of Indian Affairs, are a national issue. There has not been a recent issue that has caused as much distress in the area of economic and business development as the recent cuts to the Indian Affairs economic development funding. Recently, the department has cut $29 billion annually out of its economic development budget. First Nations entrepreneurs and communities used to use this funding extensively as business development seed capital. This seed capital was used to lever additional government funding, loans and other forms of financing like partnership dollars to enable First Nations businesses to be created and expanded. The cuts to this important equity program came as a shock to First Nations, because at several consultation sessions, workshops and round tables, the need for more seed/equity capital was strongly recommended time and time again.
First Nations need a First Nations specific funding program that is adequately resourced to meet the economic development needs. This program and these funds must be for First Nations development and should be run by a First Nations specific organization. This is a fundamental component to raising the standard of living.
RCAP recognized this in their recommendation 2.51 on page 840, which stated that ``federal, provincial and territorial governments should enter into long-term economic development agreements with Aboriginal nations, or institutions representing several nations, to provide multi-year funding to support economic development.'' The funding cuts have a profound negative impact on economic development in all areas such as agriculture, fishing, forestry, tourism, services and natural resources, just to name a few.
Natural resources is a big issue in Manitoba. As stated earlier, RCAP has recognized the importance of land and resources to the economic development future of First Nations. RCAP goes on to state that:
Canada's wealth must be shared fairly with the original inhabitants of the land. Commitment to Aboriginal self-government will be hollow unless Aboriginal Nations have access to an adequate land base, with resources to match.
Since the European contact, First Nations control and access over resources of the land have steadily been eroded. The Natural Resource Transfer Agreement of 1930 was another blow to First Nations involvement at any level of natural resources. With the province now in control of natural resources, First Nations, a federal responsibility, are literally out of the picture. This must change. Resource revenue sharing and access to natural resources must come to the forefront of the First Nations relationship with Canada and Manitoba.
One practical example of how our province's control over natural resources has negatively impacted on First Nations is the reclassification of lakes from commercial fishing to sport fishing without proper consultations with First Nations, and certainly without their approval. This affected the livelihood of many First Nations fishermen. There are also examples in other primary sectors such as forestry, energy, mining and so on, and secondary industries such as tourism.
In a paper that was commissioned by the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs in 2004, it was reported that the overall contribution of natural resources to the Manitoba real gross domestic product, based on 2001 basic prices, is conservatively estimated to be $3.3 billion annually. The chart in our paper describes how we get to $3.3 billion.
In that chart we used a conservative factor of 5 per cent of selected related industries to indicate the natural resource contribution to these related industries, except for hydro, of course, where we used a factor of 80 per cent.
In addition to the economic factors described in our paper, the ability of First Nations to pursue the development of economic opportunities is also linked to other factors such as education, health, infrastructure, housing and the ability to access capital in a timely fashion. While time does not permit us to focus on all these areas, it should be noted that Indian and Northern Affairs Canada can and should play a role in assisting First Nations to develop a coordinated effort to link these other factors into the economic development strategies in all regions across the country, especially in Manitoba.
We further note that the access to capital is critical in taking advantage of opportunities as they arise. This can come in two basic forms — access to outside investment capital and having our own source of revenue. Our paper expands on this in the section on recommendations, which I will now discuss.
First, I would like to quote a young fellow, Albert Einstein, who said, ``The problems we face today cannot be solved on the same level of thinking we were at when we created them.''
There must be a substantial and coordinated effort to significantly close the gap in the standard of living between First Nations and all other Canadians. This is especially critical in Manitoba where the HDI rating is the lowest in the country. This will involve all aspects of lands and resources, access to capital, human resource development and partnership development. We all have a role to play in ensuring that there is an environment that allows and encourages the growth and prosperity of the First Nations business community and the community at large. With this in mind, we recommend the following:
Number 1, a significant increase to First Nations specific economic development funding is recommended. The new funding must be significant in size, flexible in criteria and measurable in its results. The new funding must be in an organization that is First Nations specific, and ultimately should be controlled by a First Nations organization. The funding must be multi-year in that it shows a long-term commitment to improving the standard of living of all First Nations people. We further recommend that discussions begin in Manitoba where the problem is most acute. First Nations should be involved in the development of the program. As a quick start, Indian Affairs should re-establish the economic development equity program immediately — this was mentioned earlier and is valued at $29 million per year — as well as maintain or enhance the current direct community economic development funding that they provide.
Finally, First Nations economic development program dollars must be increased to reflect a much larger proportion of the federal government's budget allocation and must become targeted funding and no longer discretionary.
Increased access to capital is our number 2 recommendation. There should be significant tax credits or incentives for investors and corporations who invest in on-reserve businesses which create significant jobs. This would significantly help in the area of access to capital from the private sector, and would certainly complement any increase to government economic development funding and reduce social assistance costs. Input from First Nations in the design of this would be beneficial.
Additionally, the private and public sectors should partner on the creation of a First Nations venture capital and development fund in Manitoba. This fund would not only be a source of much-needed capital for First Nation businesses but would also be able to provide management skills as required.
Direct partnerships and joint ventures with First Nations organizations and businesses can and will lead to successful economic initiatives, as each partner can bring an important yet different skill set to the venture. Financial incentives should also be created so as to encourage these forms of partnerships, especially in disadvantaged economic areas like Manitoba.
Finally, efforts must be made especially in Manitoba to increase the revenue of all First Nations so that they have their own source of funds to invest in diversifying their own economies. This could be achieved by fulfilling one of the Royal Commission recommendations of sharing the benefits of the natural resources of this great land. For example, if First Nations were able to have their fair share of the $3.3 billion of GDP created every year in the Manitoba economy from natural resources, they would be able to pull themselves up to an equal standard of living with all other Manitobans by investing in economic communities and thus creating jobs, wealth and healthy communities.
On the issue of human resources, there should be better coordination and an increase in education and training dollars to support the very young and fast-growing First Nations population. Education and training leading to higher-level jobs, greater personal and family incomes and increased stability would go a long way to closing the gap that exists between the haves and have-nots of this province and country. This would also help the Manitoba economy by providing a skilled work force needed to fill the current and future demand.
Additionally, support for organizations currently trying to promote partnerships and employment equity must be enhanced.
For example, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs now has some two dozen agreements with large corporations, Crown corporations and government departments to assist those organizations in the recruitment, training, retention and promotion of First Nations employees. These agreements or partnerships, as we call them, help create a win-win situation and a long-term productive working relationship between the corporate world and First Nations.
The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs has recently taken this partnership to the next level with Manitoba Telecom Services, in that our partnership agreement goes beyond just employment. This agreement includes business development and procurement, telecommunications, infrastructure development, and education and training.
The current federal Procurement Strategy for Aboriginal Business, PSAB, is not working. It must be revisited and enhanced to be able to facilitate First Nations access to government contracts for the supply of goods and services. Furthermore, this policy must be broadened to encourage the private sector in Canada to participate in such procurement initiatives. We would like to see all corporations develop a First Nations procurement policy so that a portion of all goods and services come from qualified First Nations businesses, where possible.
With respect to land and resources, first, the land claims process in Manitoba should be expedited. To date, treaty land entitlement land converted to reserve status is 6,641 acres out of a total of 197,015 acres. In urban settings, these lands must be used for commercial development, thus creating another opportunity for economic partnership with the private sector.
On the issue of resources, Manitoba and the federal government must support the First Nations positions on access to resources and resource revenue sharing with the province. We also need financial incentives to encourage partnerships between the private sector companies that are prominent in the various resource-based industries and the First Nations.
Energy is a major industry in Manitoba which should be developed in partnership with the First Nations as a means to help initiate the development of First Nations economies. We recommend that any further energy development in Manitoba be developed in partnership under a protocol agreement with Manitoba's First Nations.
In conclusion, with the young and growing First Nations population, Canada and the provinces can no longer exclude or limit First Nations from the major sectors of the Canadian economy. The government, the private sector and First Nations organizations must work together to create and sustain a significant economic development focus for the future. This will begin to raise the standard of living for First Nations in this country and reduce the role of social assistance in First Nations lives.
Perhaps this should have been a recommendation — and it is something we try to promote at all of our meetings with outside organizations — that at the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, our doors are open to greet you, our ears are open to hear you, and our office is ready to do business with you. I encourage you to engage our organization in discussions about how we can work together to achieve and exceed our goals.
Senator Dyck: You list a number of recommendations. If you had to reduce the list to one or two, which ones would you pick?
Mr. Cramer: Certainly one of the most important would be the resource revenue sharing. This is critical to the long- term development of First Nations' successful development and increased access to capital.
Senator Dyck: With respect to treaty land entitlement, how big a factor is that in your economic development? It looks right now that only about 3.5 per cent of your land has been returned back with an agreement made.
Mr. Cramer: Yes. That is critical because many of the First Nations are looking to access land that they can access under those agreements for economic purposes. In the urban settings, absolutely, we believe that creates huge economic opportunities. The main issue is that First Nations have been pushed out of the way, so to speak, in terms of where the reserves are, to let others develop the resources and the economy of this land. By claiming back some of the land, hopefully they can access land that is not out of the way, that has an economic value, and that can create much- needed wealth for the First Nations.
Senator Peterson: I think we understand the problems and challenges that you face, but do you really feel that any of these issues can, or will be, dealt with without firstly solving the outstanding treaties and the treaty land entitlements? Where do we start here realistically? You talk about sharing resource revenue, but without those things settled, can that ever happen?
Mr. Cramer: Yes, it can, first of all, and they are happening now. Second, in Manitoba at least — and I think this is across the country — there is an average. It takes an average of 27 years to settle land claims. We cannot wait that long. While those are absolutely important and essential, I do not think one should, or needs to, come before the other; they can happen at the same time and should happen quicker. Business development typically is economic development, and does not have to be dictated by major agreements. Some First Nations are proving that and have proved it over the years. It is just that we are depressed in Manitoba and we need a little boost to get us there.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Cramer, for coming before the committee today. I am not sure whether you are aware but there has been a reference from the Senate for us to inquire into why it is taking such a long time to settle these land claims. The Senate is conducting an inquiry and will make recommendations to the government.
Hopefully, your first point on land and resources will be addressed and we will be able to expedite that process, which I think would assist in economic development in Manitoba.
Thank you again for your presentation and give our best regards to Grand Chief Evans. We will look forward to any other further recommendations that you would like to submit by way of writing to the committee.
The committee adjourned.