Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 8 - Evidence - Afternoon meeting
VANCOUVER, Wednesday, November 15, 2006
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met today at 1:32 p.m. to study and to report from time to time on the application of the Official Languages Act and of the regulations and directives made under it, within those institutions subject to the act, and to draft a report.
Senator Maria Chaput (Chairman) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Good afternoon and welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. I am Maria Chaput, Chairman of the Committee and I am from Manitoba.
I would like to begin by introducing the members of the Committee who are with us today: Senator Gerald Comeau from Nova Scotia, Senator Lowell Murray from Ontario, Senator Mobina Jaffer from British Columbia, Senator Claudette Tardif from Alberta, and Senator Fernand Robichaud, from New Brunswick. Our guests are: Mr. Pierre Gagnon and Mr. Benoit André of the Association des juristes d'expression française de la Colombie-Britannique. You have ten minutes to make your opening presentation, after which senators will have questions for you.
Benoit André, Executive Director, Association des juristes d'expression française de la Colombie-Britannique: The Association des juristes d'expression française de la Colombie-Britannique (AJEFCB) was formed six years ago. Its goals and objectives are to contribute to the professional development of French-speaking jurists in British Columbia and work towards the development and implementation of legal services in French, while ensuring respect for existing rights in that regard in British Columbia. We also examine all matters relating to the rights of the francophone population in British Columbia. We have approximately 60 members. We deal with a fairly wide public and our members are lawyers, jurists, Crown attorneys and notaries, sheriffs, law students and academics. We have a number of projects under way.
I would like to get back to the specific questions raised by the Committee, as I understand them. However, there is a whole series of questions that we unfortunately cannot answer with respect to the development of new services, and specifically as regards the Canadian Tourism Commission. However, we can answer some of your questions and suggest areas the Committee may wish to consider for further study.
Has the institution been able to recruit enough bilingual employees to meet requirements with respect to communication and service delivery in both official languages? In practice, I really do not know. However, I would like to suggest an area of further consideration: rather than relocating all the current staff, one idea could be to recruit from resources that are available in the province itself. That is the first idea for which we would like to express our support.
But where would those resources be found? Do they exist? Well, they do exist, but there is another issue we have identified, and that is youth training. Our Association has a number of projects underway which are aimed at helping to provide training for young people up to Grade 12. There are immersion schools and they work well. But after Grade 12, there is no bridging between Grade 12 and working in French in British Columbia. We think the federal government should be building bridges, either through training for students in Grade 12 or through the provision of grants to encourage bilingual and francophone students to remain in the province.
The third area of consideration has to do with the fact that once federal services are in place, bilingual staff has truly to be bilingual and receive appropriate training. The Association provides training to jurists. We organize courses and workshops dealing with terminology on a regular basis, as well as specific courses aimed at francophone jurists, to help them develop their skills. I believe that training will ensure the success of the new federal services that are to be made available.
Pierre Gagnon, President, Association des juristes d'expression française de la Colombie-Britannique: Madam Chairman, in that same connexion, Mr. Benoit has just identified that we have a problem recruiting francophone or bilingual resources in British Columbia. The matter I would like to address with you relates to the recruitment of prospective jurors.
The recruitment of prospective jurors is related to what we were discussing earlier: since 1970, immersion or francophone schools have been operating in British Columbia and have produced a bilingual population over the years. We are talking about Grade 12 graduates. This population, unless it has relocated to Eastern Canada, is still living here.
The problem we have with prospective jurors is that we are unable to identify francophones, anglophones or individuals who are bilingual. Juror recruitment is normally done using an electoral list. Names are selected at random from the voters list and, in a majority situation, we are able to form a 12-member jury.
However, if we want to select a jury made up of bilingual jurors in British Columbia, we have a problem, in that we do not know where they are. A report has been produced and we have provided a copy of it. Of course, the report makes a number of suggestions to the provincial and federal governments in terms of potential solutions. That is primarily what I would like to talk to you about today.
For example, if you look at the paper that has been distributed, in the chapter on recommendations, towards the end of the document, you will find our first suggestion, which is to use the Federal Elections Act. In other words, when the federal electoral list is compiled initially, would it be possible to identify citizens who are francophone, anglophone, or bilingual? The information collected for the purposes of the federal voters list could then be passed on to the provinces. British Columbia is not the only province having difficulty recruiting jurors; the fact is that all the Western provinces have the same problem. So, that is our first suggestion: that this information, namely which citizens are bilingual, francophone or anglophone, be passed on to the provinces.
The other possibility would be to use the census. There is a census in Canada every five years and Canadians are asked very specific questions. They are asked whether they speak English, French or both official languages. That information must be made available to the provinces so that they can then identify which residents are bilingual, anglophone or francophone, possibly for the purposes of forming bilingual, francophone or anglophone juries, even in a minority situation.
I would just like to conclude with one point we raised in our report, namely that a question could be put to people completing the census form or submitting their name or filling out the appropriate documentation in order to exercise their voting rights. That question is: Do you agree that the information collected with respect to official language(s) learned and still understood by you be used to compile lists of prospective jurors pursuant to section 530 of the Criminal Code, which provides that persons accused of a criminal offence in Canada have the right to be tried in the official language of their choice? francophones, anglophones, defence counsel, and Crown attorneys all have an interest in ensuring that proceedings can occur in both official languages all across Canada where criminal matters are concerned.
Senator Comeau: You raise a question that I had not thought about before, which is access to a bilingual jury in order to meet our needs. I will be perfectly frank with you: We may have to consider other ways that do not involve using census documents or the federal voters list, as those two lists are subject to the requirement that all such information remain confidential.
I know we had a fairly lengthy discussion last year about releasing that information. Every time we do, it raises a lot of concerns because the federal government has promised not to release that information. I wonder if there is not another way to deal with what is certainly a real issue?
Mr. Gagnon: Under the current Elections Act and Statistics Act, there are exceptions for non-disclosure of information. One of the suggestions we are making is that the legislation be amended to allow for disclosure. There are other exceptions, but in these particular statutes, there would have to be exceptions in order to resolve that particular problem.
That is why I concluded with the question that could be posed directly to Canadians. It begins in French: ``est-ce que vous êtes d'accord pour que ces renseignements soient divulgués?'' If people answer yes, then I believe they have given their consent. And consent is one of the criteria.
Senator Comeau: There is already a similar question for people dealing with Revenue Canada with respect to their income tax returns. The question is asked there — in other words, whether they can use your name for the federal voters list. Perhaps that would be another possibility, since people are already asked that very specific question. People seem to go along with that. It is rather surprising, but apparently, people generally agree with that.
As regards the electoral list, voters may say yes, since they are used to answering that question. Everyone files an income tax return, and in any case, people who do not file an income tax return would probably not be good prospective jurors. Have you thought of that?
Mr. Gagnon: Yes, we actually talk about it in our report; in other words, the Elections Act, or the information used to develop the voters list, refer to Revenue Canada data. We are suggesting that the answer to that question about the preferred language of correspondence also be communicated for the purposes of preparing the voters list and eventually being used.
Senator Comeau: I would like to have a private discussion with you with respect to the census and this document. I have serious concerns about its use because parliamentarians decided to break their promise last year and I have concerns about any use of the census.
Mr. André: Just for your information, the way they go about recruiting francophone jurors is really rather amusing. Several years ago, the Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique agreed to ask its members if they wanted to be on these lists. They had to be members of the Federation and agree to this. A list was developed with about 450 names on it. The sheriffs use this list and people are regularly brought in for trials. But when the sheriffs get to the end of their list, they go into francophone buildings and deliver summons to all the francophones.
Senator Jaffer: In order to increase the number of people able to speak French, the government offers French courses to judges and Crown prosecutors. Would you like there to be French courses available to counsel representing francophones in court?
Mr. Gagnon: Yes, definitely. One of our projects at the Association des juristes d'expression française de la Colombie-Britannique involved teaching courses on legal terminology. This is a program funded by the federal government. The Association received a grant to train jurists. This is very important work.
But let us get back to square one: we also have to work on recruitment. It is fine to train people who are already there, but we also have to think about ways of recruiting people who are already bilingual. There are people who are bilingual in British Columbia. It is simply a matter of bridging the gap between Grade 12 and higher education. That is how we will be able to create a bilingual workforce.
Ideally, at some time in the future, training in the field will not be needed as much because lawyers, Crown attorneys and judicial staff will already be bilingual, having gone through the entire educational system up to Grade 12.
[English]
Senator Jaffer: I was very interested. Actually, I had never heard this idea before and have been thinking about the bridging since you mentioned it, Mr. André. Are you referring to those who cannot go to college or university and go from high school to the work force? What would this bridging program look like?
Mr. André: That is a very good question. Actually, I was referring to those who finish high school. There is a way. I mean, it is possible. We are just talking about law school here, but there are other areas, too, such as doing your common law in French, but people have to be informed of that. It would be interesting, for example, to see financial bridging that would give some kind of subsidy to those people on the condition that they stay in British Columbia for two or three years after their studies. They would then have a good reason to stay. They would receive money for their education, and they would be a plus in the workforce here in British Columbia. That is one of the ways we can organize this bridging.
Senator Jaffer: You mentioned the common law. If a person is going to law school, will a course be offered in terminology, or will they get the whole degree in French?
Mr. Gagnon: The only area of practice in British Columbia in the English language is criminal law. What could occur in the future is that law students who are capable of speaking French could have the option of electing criminal law in the French language, for example. That would be a start.
As far as other employment related to the justice system, I can think of a college called the Justice Institute of British Columbia where the sheriffs and police officers are trained. If the Justice Institute of British Columbia could offer certain courses in French — not terminology courses — about how to be a sheriff, I think that would be a start in preparing the workforce to work in an area that truly needs bilingual workers.
Mr. André: Another way to build that bridge — and this is perhaps within this committee's field of expertise — is that the administrations who come here could have an exchange and information program to welcome French- speaking students who want to practise, who want to work in the federal service. We need to prepare them to be the next generation of workers.
Senator Jaffer: What do you think about the justice system being involved in an exchange of jurists between Quebec and B.C.? Let us not say ``jurists,'' because judges already have one, but for lawyers.
Mr. André: That is interesting, but 1.2 per cent of the population speaks French and 7 per cent speaks both languages, and I would prefer to have those people. It is not a question of — I am not going to say ``positive discrimination,'' but it would be nice to use resource that is here before organizing all those movements.
Mr. Gagnon: The advantage of the exchange is that it will solve the problem rapidly, but it never goes to the root of the problem, which is forming people from the start.
Senator Jaffer: I am fascinated by your idea of bridging. I completely agree with you that between high school and employment we have to find a way if we are going to continue to have people especially who have immersion. I am thinking of those other people you have talked about, people who have gone to immersion and then they stop and go to university and perhaps lose the knowledge. It is a fascinating idea, but I still am not quite sure how it would be provided. I am still struggling with that concept.
Mr. Gagnon: I think that Simon Fraser University has a program in the French language. That is a start.
[Translation]
Senator Tardif: I would like to come back to training for young people and your problem recruiting bilingual resources. I am not sure whether you are talking about the population as a whole or simply as far as legal training is concerned?
Mr. Gagnon: We are basically talking about training for work in the legal system. There are federal institutions, but in our specific area, it is access to the justice system in French. People can only access the justice system in French in British Columbia where criminal matters are concerned — in other words, where cases must be heard by a judge who speaks French, or a Crown attorney who speaks French, or by bilingual jurors. We do not know what the future will hold, but for the time being, we are talking about recruitment and training for the legal community.
Senator Tardif: Previously I was with the Saint-Jean Faculty at the University of Alberta and many of our students went to the University of Ottawa or the University of Moncton to study the common law in French. There were agreements between our institutions. I believe the program at Simon Fraser University is primarily aimed at teacher training and bilingual administration. It does not deal with law and justice.
Mr. Gagnon: You are right, that work has not been done yet. For a student, having to go and complete one's training at the other end of the country is not ideal. We are working to try and have that training provided locally.
Senator Tardif: Hence the idea of grants as a way of supporting studies or asking the institutions to develop a course like this at your request. It could be worthwhile to go and see an institution, give them the evidence that the demand is there and try and work it that way.
How many jurists are members of the Association des juristes d'expression française de la Colombie-Britannique?
Mr. André: We have about 60 members. But the number is growing steadily. And if you consult the lawyers directory in British Columbia, you will see that there are about 300 people who say they are francophone or bilingual. But we are trying to reach out to the student community as well. We organize events where they are invited. For example, we organize meetings with justices of the Supreme Court and try to have some students in attendance, so that they will realize there are francophones practising law, perhaps even in British Columbia.
Senator Tardif: Are you facing the same challenges as in other Western provinces? Have you had any discussions with the Association des juristes d'expression française in Alberta, Saskatchewan or elsewhere?
Mr. Gagnon: There is a Federation of Jurist Associations. All jurist associations are members of that federation. The Federation consults its members and organizes meetings. It also carries out certain projects. At the same time, it is important to understand that the linguistic situation does vary considerably from one province to the next.
As I was saying, people have access to the justice system in British Columbia only for criminal matters or for matters over which the federal government has jurisdiction. So, the answer is yes, there is a federation, and there are consultations. But we are not all at the same level. In British Columbia, we have to keep working in order to reach the same level that exists in Manitoba or Saskatchewan. And that is what we are currently doing.
Senator Losier-Cool: In 2010, the Winter Olympic and Paralympic Games will be held in Vancouver. Everyone knows that and that is one of the primary reasons why we are here. The committee has heard from various organizations that are working to prepare that event. When there are events of that magnitude, unfortunately, accidents and things of that sort always happen.
I do hope your association will make it known to the organizers — either through COVAN or the City of Vancouver — that legal services are available in French, if ever they are needed. You say you have 70 francophone members, so the idea is simply to contact the organizations behind the Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games in 2010 in Vancouver to make them aware of your services. Is that something you can do?
Mr. André: Yes, it is, and we will certainly do it. Not only for the groups organizing the Olympic Games, but for the population in general. We will be starting to do that early next year. We have received a new grant from the federal Department of Justice for that purpose. We will be publishing brochures in French and making them available as soon as possible in public places, so that residents are informed of their right to use French. And we hope to continue to do that with the Olympic Games and, of course, other organizations and the general public.
Senator Robichaud: You say that if we were to look in the telephone book, we would probably find about 300 lawyers who say they are bilingual?
Mr. Gagnon: I believe Mr. André was referring to the lawyer's directory that is published by the province.
Senator Robichaud: And all of them were trained outside of the province?
Mr. Gagnon: I really do not know. You would have to ask them directly. However, it is not possible to study law in French in British Columbia.
Senator Robichaud: So, when you say they provide bilingual service, that simply means that if I go to see you, we are able to speak in both languages? It does not mean that they took all their training in French?
Mr. Gagnon: That is correct. But the fact remains that for defence counsel, for example, or people practicing criminal law, where services are provided in French, access to the justice system in French does exist. If I am not mistaken, there are between five and ten criminal lawyers in the province. So, the people saying that they are French- speaking lawyers do not practice in that particular field. They may practice commercial law, but I really do not know.
However, as regards access to the justice system for criminal cases, there are very few defence lawyers in British Columbia. Indeed, you will find statistics in our report — the full report — on the number of Crown counsel and judges. Until very recently, there were only two or three bilingual clerks. I say two or three, because there was one in training. Technically, there cannot be more than two trials in French occurring at the same time in British Columbia. It is really that issue that we are seeking to address.
It is also important to understand that our definition of the term ``jurist'' is quite broad, in the sense that we are including stenographers, people working as clerks, and the sheriffs as well, because we are trying to identify the areas where there are gaps.
Senator Robichaud: Does that mean that francophones have to wait until services are available? In my opinion, if they wait too long, then justice is not done, is it? Does that happen often?
Mr. Gagnon: I cannot tell you whether thus far, there has been a shortage, but our opinion is that we have to prepare for the future. In terms of legal counsel, judges or legal staff able to take over from those who leave, our approach is that we need to have the appropriate structures in place right from the outset, in order to be able to meet whatever demand there is, since there is access to the justice system in French for criminal cases only.
Indeed, our report actually identifies that. There are no real statistics on how many trials occur on a yearly basis. We would have to analyze the numbers with respect to the crime rate as well. There may be years when demand is strong and other years when demand is weaker. We have no control over that. But when there is a demand, we have to be able to meet it. For example, in the jurors report, you will see that recruitment of bilingual jurors is problematic at the present time.
Mr. André: With respect to what you were saying about the risk of this happening in practice, interviews were conducted for the purposes of preparing this report. Sheriffs and Crown counsel told us that there are cases where people simply decide to speak English.
Senator Robichaud: That was my next question.
Mr. André: Because it takes time and costs money.
Senator Robichaud: You say it costs money?
Mr. Gagnon: For example, in British Columbia, one of the practices that has come about as a way of resolving the problem of access to the justice system in French is that they have centralized all the cases — for example, in front of a jury — in an area near Vancouver. What that means is that for an accused living in the northern part of the province, having the case heard in Vancouver when you live in Fort St. John, for instance, implies certain expenses. And the same thing goes for the witnesses, whether they are defence witnesses or prosecution witnesses. What it means is that all those witnesses have to be moved to a specific centre which is no where near the place where the crime was committed — or even, generally speaking, where it is decided.
That involves certain costs because Crown counsel or judges are required to travel. As for trials without jury, the judges, Crown counsel and other legal counsel travel to the regions, but when it is a trial by jury, everything is centralized here. So, in that sense, it involves additional costs.
Senator Robichaud: And that is why you are calling for the creation of three areas?
Mr. Gagnon: Yes, the creation of three areas, and identification and recruitment of prospective jurors in the regions.
Senator Robichaud: In those specific areas?
Mr. Gagnon: Yes. This is based on results, as indicated in the Statistics Canada report, showing that there is a francophone population of about 1 to 2 per cent in almost all the regions.
Senator Robichaud: So, if I want to be tried in French, I will have to live in that area. But if I decide, based on the recommendation of my legal counsel to be tried in English, does that mean the trial can proceed anywhere in the province?
Mr. Gagnon: Yes, exactly.
Senator Robichaud: That is a lot quicker and does not involve the same delays.
Mr. Gagnon: In terms of jury selection, it may or may not be quicker. But, again, the problem arises with jury trials, because there is a need to identify prospective jurors who can work in both official languages. In terms of the selection process, that also takes more time.
Senator Robichaud: So, this is a problem that is not easy to resolve, is it? I wish you the best of luck. And what is Justice Canada doing? Have they been made aware of the problem?
Mr. Gagnon: You will see, if you read the entire report, that British Columbia is not the only province experiencing these problems. Almost every province in Canada is going through this. Even in Quebec, in the most remote areas, they are facing the same difficulty. And often, trials have to be transferred from the regions to the major urban centres — more often than not, to Montreal.
But the reason we are making reference to the Elections Act or the census is to acknowledge something that is very much a Canadian reality. This is a large country. It is a country that is bilingual — at least as regards the administration of the criminal justice system. It is a country where the right to be judged by one's peers in front of a jury is a constitutional right. So, we have to do what is necessary to ensure those rights can be exercised. If that means asking Canadians whether they are bilingual, francophone or anglophone, in order to eventually be able to constitute a 12-person jury, then we have to do that, so that we are able to identify individual citizens and the population.
Senator Tardif: Is your association able to work closely with other francophone associations in the province or with the francophone community? Also, have you had an opportunity to observe the implications of changes made to section 41 of the Official Languages Act, which talks about positive measures?
Mr. André: The association does indeed work with other francophone associations. At the present time, we are trying to increase the number as much as possible. The problem we are having, particularly in terms of our relationship with the general public, is that people believe we can provide legal advice. Our role is not to provide legal advice to the public and other associations, but we do try to take part in the associative movement and work with other groups. The remark I made earlier about sheriffs serving summons on other associations is somewhat related to that. It is a problem that has been referred to us and that I am passing on to you.
Senator Comeau: Mr. Gagnon, you mentioned that you are looking for a way of identifying anglophones and francophones. But do not you really mean that you need to identify people who are bilingual, and people who are not?
Mr. Gagnon: Yes, but if you read section 530 of the Criminal Code carefully, you will see it says that a trial may be held in French, in English or in both official languages. But you are absolutely right, in the sense that a trial that proceeds in French in British Columbia where witnesses give evidence in English or a police officer or victim does so, means that, for all intents and purposes, the jury must have an ability to speak both official languages.
Senator Comeau: This may not be the case, but I have always thought that people are not particularly interested in doing jury duty. I may be wrong, and it is possible that people do like doing jury duty. But if that is not the case, is it not possible that people will try to avoid having their name on these lists, so that they do not have jury duty?
Mr. Gagnon: The voters lists have existed for decades. We will also be discussing this with the provincial government, and asking it to make the necessary amendments to identify people who are bilingual in British Columbia. When an individual or a citizen decides to put his name on the voters list, that gives him the right to vote and is one of his primary prerogatives as a citizen. But there are no rights without obligations, and thus if someone is on the voters list, that potentially means he or she could be called upon to do jury duty.
Senator Comeau: In the end, if someone has been identified as bilingual and could be selected for jury duty, is that person not twice as likely to be a potential juror, since his or her name is on two lists, in a way? Could these individuals not have their names removed from the general list if they are on the list of bilingual people? Is that something they could be offered?
Mr. Gagnon: One of the people interviewed for the report made that suggestion — in other words, that someone who had already done jury duty would be exempt for a certain number of years.
Senator Comeau: Or even be on the bilingual list.
Mr. Gagnon: Do you mean only on the bilingual list, as opposed to remaining on all the others?
Senator Comeau: Yes.
Mr. Gagnon: That is a very interesting suggestion.
Senator Murray: If I were both francophone and bilingual in British Columbia and had been accused of a crime, and went to see a lawyer who would probably be unilingual English, and said I am more comfortable in French than in English, but he says he cannot take my case unless I am prepared to go to court in English, well, if I am not very well educated, I may not be aware of all my language rights. As a francophone accused in a case such as that, what means and what resources are available to me? Do you understand what I mean?
Mr. Gagnon: Yes. The Criminal Code currently provides that an accused, for example, coming to court alone for the first time, must be made aware of his right to have his case heard in both official languages. Where the accused are represented by counsel, there are some provinces whose code of ethics — notably, in Ontario — states that a lawyer must inform his client that —
Senator Murray: Not in British Columbia?
Mr. Gagnon: No, there is no such obligation in British Columbia. And that is the reason why we are working to train and recruit bilingual jurists. Because a lack of bilingual jurists —
Senator Murray: Jurists and judges — lawyers?
Mr. Gagnon: The lack of bilingual lawyers. But you are right: it is a restriction on an accused's right to choose to be tried in one language or the other.
The Chairman: I am going to keep the last question for myself. My question relates to the two main reasons why the Committee has come to Vancouver. One of those two reasons is relocation of some federal offices to bilingual regions. I wondered whether you had an opinion on whether it would be helpful for the federal government to pass a regulation to establish parameters for the application of Part V of the Official Languages Act with respect to language of work?
Mr. Gagnon: Once again, I believe Mr. Benoît addressed this briefly at the beginning of his presentation. In the regulations under section 41, there is the possibility of establishing programs with the provinces. Just to make the connection with what we have been discussing today, the recruitment of bilingual personnel should be encouraged. Local recruitment of bilingual personnel should be encouraged in British Columbia.
The Chairman: Recruitment would be part of the application of the Act, as an example?
Mr. Gagnon: Yes.
The Chairman: Would you like to add anything, Mr. André?
Mr. André: No, it has been a pleasure to speak with you.
The Chairman: Gentlemen, I would like to thank you for coming to talk to us today. I wish you the best of luck in your work, which is certainly very important. We will now move to the next group of witnesses.
Honourable senators, you may recall that at a previous meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, Senator Jaffer expressed a desire for the Committee, at its meeting in Vancouver, to talk to French- speaking immigrants she knows here. The idea was for us to hear directly about the experiences of new immigrants to a bilingual country and the challenges they face.
So, the witnesses we will be hearing from today have been identified thanks to our colleague, Senator Jaffer, and I want to thank her on behalf of the committee for doing that. They responded enthusiastically to our invitation.
They are Mr. Moussa Magassa, Ms. Lily Mudahemuka, Mr. Jamal Nawru, Mr. Tanniar Leba and Ms. Chantal Gaza. Welcome to all of you. We are very pleased to have this opportunity to meet with you today. I understand that you agreed among you that two people would make a short presentation for the group, namely Ms. Mudahemuka and Mr. Magassa, although I gather the five of you are prepared to answer questions after that. Is that correct?
Lily Mudahemuka, as an individual: Yes. Madam Chairman, allow me to begin this hearing by expressing our thanks to all of those who contributed in any way to making this meeting a reality, because it is both an honour and a unique opportunity for us, as Africans, to meet with members of the Senate. But I believe it works in the other direction as well, because this is an opportunity for members of the Senate to meet with the African community. It is very rare for us to be told: ``Tell us about your issues; we are here to listen.''
As Africans, we are used to fighting; we run around from morning to night. We are busy living our lives and we do not have the time to realize that someone may be saying to us: ``Yes, I am here. Tell me what you have to say.'' That is why this meeting is so important to us. At the same time, it is an opportunity because we will be able to talk about the problems we encounter. It is too bad, because our comments will be much more negative, but there is also the warm side of our personalities as Africans.
At the present time, the major obstacle for us, as francophone Africans living in a minority situation, is language. Language really encompasses all the problems that we encounter, whether it be with respect to housing, immigration, or services that we request. It can also be a problem when seeking employment.
So, I will be discussing language and sociocultural problems, and Mr. Magassa will talk to you about problems we are encountering with immigration and specific services.
Although we speak the French language, for most Africans, it is not our real mother tongue. We come from countries where we have our own languages and our own dialects. But given that most of the people here are from former French colonies, knowledge of French is a requirement. We studied in French, which allows us to operate in that language. So, when we come here, particularly to Vancouver, which is an anglophone environment, we have to learn the language. And that is not an easy thing to do, because it is a third or fourth language for some people.
Despite that, however, we work hard to learn English. Because, if we decided to come here, it was to be properly integrated into the Vancouver community and be able to contribute to the life of that community. We are realizing that not only is it difficult to access courses in English that are cheaper — first of all, they cost money, and most immigrants cannot afford to pay for these courses.
There are in fact two types of immigrants: those who chose to immigrate to Canada and who are well prepared, and another type of immigrant: those who did not choose to come to Canada at all but who, because of their circumstances, whether war-related or otherwise, had no choice but to come here.
So, language poses a real problem for these individuals. It is true that there are institutions and schools that offer courses in English to newcomers that are not very expensive, but I just want to say that those courses — levels 1, 2 and 3 — are really basic courses. I would not go so far as to say that they only teach you how to go and buy salt at the supermarket, but almost.
Most Africans who come to Canada are intellectuals who already have a certain level of university training, but when the level is adjusted, we compare the kind of experience we have and the result is a lack of confidence. I am a journalist by training, but I would never dare apply for a job at CTV or anywhere else, and I know that the French network of the CBC could not possibly have enough jobs for all the francophone journalists out there. When I arrived in Vancouver, my goal was to learn English and be able to work in my field. So, language is a major obstacle for me, and when I say ``me,'' I include all Africans.
I do not know whether the government — and I am not sure whether it would be the federal or the provincial government — can help us or allow us access to a system of education where we could learn English at a lesser cost. Because that is really all we are asking. When we arrive here, we understand that because it is an anglophone province, we should expect to work and function in English.
The English language is a problem for us, not only in terms of employment, but also in terms of our integration. I will never know what is going on in the street next to mine. I would really like to get involved, but because everything happens in English, I am stuck; I cannot mix. Another example would be the fact that I defend the cause of women, but since all the organizations work in English, they will never hear my voice or my viewpoint. I will end up being frustrated and, because of that, will not feel fulfilled. As a result, I am bitter and my life is a disaster.
Some of us have been able to turn things around. I may say to myself that even though I cannot find work in my own field, because Canada places a lot of emphasis on multiskilling, I will simply look for work in another field. That is fine; I may secure work in another field, but ultimately I will feel bitter because I am not doing the work that I love. I am working to survive, so that I can pay my rent and bills, but it will not be an occupation that I like.
Most of us also have a problem having our diplomas recognized when we get here. Our diplomas are not recognized because we studied under a French and Belgian system. Even with that, it is really an issue.
I would like to cite the example of a father who arrives here with his wife and four children. He is an engineer. He encounters the language problem, but then he is prepared to take any job that is offered to him. Vancouver is very expensive. In order to survive, he needs two jobs. And because their children are young, his wife will not be able to contribute to the couple's income. She has no choice but to stay at home, and her husband will end up with two jobs; in the morning, he may work in a department store serving customers, and in the evening, he may be delivering pizzas. And he is already feeling some bitterness because that is not his field, and in addition to that, when he goes home in the evening, his wife, who stays at home all day, tells him she needs money to buy diapers for the kids, that she needs this and she needs that. It may be all right if it happens once, or twice, but after the third time, that man is starting to be tired of always been asked for something.
All of that is indirect, but I want you to understand that it makes for a real catastrophe as far as that couple is concerned. In the African community, we see couples separating and we do not understand why, because in Africa, family is very important. In Africa, divorce is a recent phenomenon. We are not familiar with it because every time there is a problem, the parents, and even the entire village get involved, before the couple is given permission to separate. Here in Canada, though, just a single bone of contention may end up breaking up a couple. There are couples who were married for twenty years, and who obviously had their highs and lows, but in their first year of life here in Canada, these couples broke up. We find ourselves wondering why, and assume that their problems were marriage- related, but the fact is that the starting point is language. The fact that I am unable to achieve fulfillment in my everyday life engenders all kinds of problems.
And there is another critical thing: earlier I was saying that if I cannot find employment in my own field, I will have to take any job I can find. But, there again, it depends. People who have had an opportunity to go to school can juggle with all of that. But imagine what happens to someone who comes to Canada after being in a refugee camp; he may have spent four years living there in absolute misery. He arrives in an anglophone province that he has not chosen. Already, making the connection between his past life in his country of origin, the transition to the refugee camp, and his life here in Canada means quite an adjustment. He really does not understand what is going on around him and that leads to depression. Because there is really no such thing as depression in the African culture — the fact is we do not get depressed; we always find a solution to our problems — people say we are crazy. We are considered to be crazy. The first people to show cruelty towards these individuals are we Africans. We start pointing fingers, and the family starts to ask questions. This is something that really struck me and I wonder: Why is the government anxious to have francophones come and live in anglophone provinces, where there is already this community that is facing disaster, and why is it bringing more people over before it has even done something to address that disaster? We are really just creating disasters. Perhaps the best solution is to look after the people who are already here. That is what you have done and what you are doing today by inviting us to speak to you. I think it is really important that we sit down, even just amongst ourselves. Inviting us to appear has really given us a chance to work together. Most of us did not know one another. But last week, we sat down together and debated this whole issue and talked about what the major problem is for us. That is why I really want to commend you for this initiative because it was really sort of like therapy for us, since we began to talk about our wounds.
I am bitter because when I got here — fortunately I was young — but I realized that my diploma was not recognized. I thought I could go back to school. So, I went to the University of Ottawa to study journalism. Even now, with a Canadian diploma in my pocket, what am I still missing? This makes me feel angry and upset, but at the same time, I hope it will come. I did that at a time in my life when I was young, but I can imagine that for those among us who are fathers and have responsibilities, and are unable to go back to university to get a Canadian equivalency, it is a real disaster.
I am now going to turn it over to Mr. Magassa.
Moussa Magassa, as an individual: I often have a problem with my name. People are always asking me where I am from. I get this question every single time. I am going to begin my presentation by talking about that. But in developing the other part of our presentation to the committee, we decided to address four themes: two have already been discussed by Ms. Mudahemuka, namely language and cultural diversity. For my part, I will be talking about integration and settlement issues, as well as services that aim to address these integration problems.
If you ask me where I am from, my first answer will be to say that I am Canadian and that I am francophone. But I am also of African origin. I am an immigrant; I may also be a refugee.
I would just like to add that this definition clearly illustrates the relevant fact about francophone African immigrants, particularly in British Columbia. It is not in any way intended to target Africans as being a special case, as opposed to the other visible minority communities because of our relevant experience with immigration and our special needs, in terms of social and community integration services, which we desperately need now.
I would just like to expand a little bit on the integration challenges for me and members of the francophone immigrant African community. Those challenges also relate to the immigration question and immigration status, and to services offered to francophone African immigrants. Most francophone African immigrants feel that immigration, and particularly settlement and integration services, are lacking the cultural context associated with the French language. We have the sense, particularly for us as francophones, that there is something missing when we talk about francophones.
For example, in terms of social issues, counsellors working with the francophone African communities need certain skills in order to be able to help them deal with such relevant issues as human rights, polygamy and gender equality. I believe Ms. Mudahemuka's example about African families clearly illustrates the fact that family issues are also connected to human rights issues.
I would just like to conclude by saying that immigration problems can be summarized as follows: first of all, there is a problem relating to the lack of recognition for our education and diplomas, equivalencies, and the total absence of flexibility. There are problems with the process and they involve case studies. The statistics on African francophone immigrants are incomplete and do not reflect the reality of the francophone African community, given that they include not only secondary immigration — many francophone African immigrants go to Quebec first, and then come here — but also interprovincial immigration.
There are also issues such as family reunification which raises problems because of differences in what ``family'' means here in Canada. That is extremely pertinent because for me, my family is not only my wife and children; it is also my mother and my brothers.
It has happened countless times that francophone African immigrants feel powerless when the family members they want to sponsor are unable to secure the official documentation they require in their country of origin. There are many such cases, particularly where refugees are concerned. When they leave, they arrive alone, and ensuring that their families can follow them is always an issue.
There is also the matter of selection criteria for francophone African immigrants. This is another issue for our communities. There are serious deficiencies in terms of the orientation of African francophone immigrants in Canadian culture. And not only in Canadian culture. There was a program on PBS about the lost boys of Sudan. These young people were saying that the challenge for them was that the orientation they were given in their own countries did not jibe with the reality here in North America.
And finally, I would just like to say that programming aimed at African immigrants and ensuring their integration is practically non-existent, as regards immigrant children. The issue for families has always been and remains the fact that most services that are available are directed at adults and parents. We have systematically forgotten that children also go through the immigration process and the experience of integration.
Finally, I would like to talk about settlement and integration services for francophone African immigrants.
In terms of services for francophone African immigrants, our African consultation group — and, before that, I would just like to thank you for taking this initiative, because it has really helped us take another look at our own issues and identify them speaking with a single voice. So, our African consultation group arrived at the conclusion that these services are inadequate and often non-representative of the African communities, in terms of their experience and their social, cultural and economic needs.
A sad example that clearly illustrates that fact is the tragedy that befell a Congolese family from New Westminster this year. From the time it arrived here in Canada, that family had experienced a whole cycle of problems primarily related to immigration, cultural integration, generational conflict, and values associated with child rearing.
The francophone African communities are therefore proposing the development of community services for children and families that meet their specific needs, such as community cultural spaces that foster a sense of community among francophones, because we are indeed proud francophones.
As well, cultural and linguistic diversity must be reflected in the services that are made available and the way in which they are funded for ethnocultural communities. There is a profound need to develop and sustain real and representative leadership for the francophone African community.
For the purposes of examining conflicts in communities and families, it would be possible, for example, to train community mediators or advisors with special expertise in integration issues.
Problems within African families are generally resolved by the entire community. But here we are among people we do not know and are unable to resolve our issues because we have no community, or because the people who help us do not have the training that would allow them to understand that the first thing to do is to involve the community. In these cases, we need to have access to mediators.
As for families, there is no structure in place to help them become integrated. Children who have not reached a certain level are put into the school system based on their age, which leads to learning problems. Many of our children leave school because they are unable to become properly integrated into the school system after spending time in refugee camps. These children are well behind children of the same age here in Canada. So, when they are brought into the school system, they never really manage to jump on the moving train.
Finally, our group has also suggested enhanced services and promotion of African representation within social services. There is also a need to support francophone organizations that represent the communities, which is currently a real problem.
In conclusion, I do not want to represent myself as someone with nothing but problems. What we are trying to do today is make you aware of the challenges our community is facing, although it is important to realize that those challenges do not only relate to our integration here in Canada, but also to challenges within our own community.
I am calling on my francophone African brothers to continue to work hard to integrate the francophone communities that are already established and work with them, hand in hand, to make the broader francophone community more welcoming and stronger. We did not come to Canada to live separate and apart from others — just among ourselves — but rather to live in Canada and with Canadians. In fact, many of us are already citizens. We have to take our place within the francophone community and, in order for that to happen, we have to demonstrate that we are prepared to work together with immigrants and existing organizations to help them respond to the demand for services for the francophone African community, as well as other francophone communities of various origins. That means there needs to be more funding available to develop services for francophone African immigrants and others, in collaboration and in partnership with those who represent the backbone of the immigrant francophone community and the so-called old stock francophone community.
Finally, it is only by joining forces and pooling our expertise and visions that we will succeed in building a diversified and multicultural francophone community and, of course, through the financial assistance provided by the government, the departments and other government bodies with responsibility for official languages.
Senator Jaffer: When I suggested to my colleagues that we invite you to appear as witnesses before the Committee, the idea was very warmly received. Ms. Mudahemuka is my French teacher, so if I do not speak it well, it is not her fault; it is mine.
Ms. Mudahemuka, you say that your greatest problem or challenge is finding a job here in British Columbia that could possibly give meaning to your qualifications. What kind of employment are you seeking based on your education? I believe it is important for my colleagues to know something about your experience.
Ms. Mudahemuka: I am a journalist by training. I had a chance to work in radio in Montreal for four years. I also worked at TFO in Ottawa, before returning to France where I worked for an NGO with expertise in conflict resolution; I was their press attaché. Along the way, I realized that I would not be able to move forward without English. So, that was my reason for coming to Vancouver. I am one of those who decided to come here. That may be the reason why it is more difficult for me because as I tried to learn the language, I encountered obstacles; I cannot afford to pay for English courses at my level, because in journalism, it is not enough to speak English; you also have to be able to write in English, and to do so without translating from French into English, because there are typically English expressions.
Senator Jaffer said that I was her French teacher. I took that job to survive. And I do have a literary background, because of where I am from. So I thought to myself that if I were going to be in Vancouver, I may as well teach French. So, I teach part-time at the Berlitz Language Centre.
My problem is that when I arrived in Vancouver, I realized that basically, I live only in French from morning to night. How can I possibly learn English? I work in French because I am not able to work in English. My English is not bad; I do have some knowledge of English, but it is not enough for me to be able to work in my field. When I am looking for a job, I send out 50 résumés a week and, after a month, I may get one interview. They hear my accent and right away they decide I am not the right person for the job.
I do not know whether I could call it discrimination, but it is in a way. I do not blame them, but it is. I am just asking to have a chance to prove that I can do it. I am not an idiot; that is what I think.
And when I say that I think it is all the Africans who are here behind me, it is because in our own way, we have something to offer; we have a diploma. That is all we are asking. I talked a little bit about discrimination, but not really in the negative sense, although it does exist. But it is twice as bad for us because of the colour of our skin. The person hiring will want to hire someone with lighter skin before hiring me. So it is really as a last resort, if there is no one else, that I will end up getting the job. That is something we encounter on a daily basis. And it is normal.
Sometimes, when I come out of an interview, I say to myself: well, that is in my field, I have a lot of expertise and I think I will get the job. But it turns out that I do not get it. At the same time, there is an issue with working here — I would not say it is necessarily connected to language; it has much more to do with networking. And all I am asking is to be part of that networking. But in order to be part of it, I have to get involved in the community centres, attend this or that meeting, and allow people to get to know me, but I cannot do that because I have a language problem.
How will I be able to cope, if not by learning it properly? You ask where I could go? Of course, if there is an institution where we could attain levels 4, 5 and 6, which is the highest level in the language, I would definitely learn it. It could be at university or in college.
I think we are ready. We are only asking to work and become taxpayers. In fact, if we go back to the way things were in Africa, well, we studied practically for free, which meant that the government was paying for our studies. We owe it something. But unfortunately, we left the country. In a way, we have been cowardly towards our own country. So, we have come here, and although we are only asking to serve Canada, we cannot even do that.
I believe employers need to be educated about immigrants. My view is that the more work you give us, the more we will contribute as taxpayers. Ultimately, we will ensure the economy is strong. But the less work we are given, the more likely we are to be on welfare, and thus contribute to Canada's financial ruin.
I believe it is in Canada's interests to open doors, not only in terms of immigration and bringing people into the country, but also doors to employment. In terms of people who have been lucky enough to receive equivalencies for their diploma or who have studied in Canada, well, there are quite a few of us. That is all we are asking.
Senator Jaffer: Would anyone else like to say a few words?
The Chairman: Two gentlemen raised their hand at the back of the room, but we will start with the people seated at the table.
Jamal Nawri, as an individual: Thank you very much for inviting us. I would like to build on the comments made by Ms. Mudahemuka with respect to immigrants selected by Canada who have settled here. We know that the criteria include education, diplomas, and experience. People are chosen at that level. Furthermore, Canada did not contribute to their training. These people are always trained. So, Canada has not spent one cent bringing these people here and educating them.
Yet once they are here, their diplomas are not recognized, even though they were selected on the basis of those diplomas. They are not recognized for the experience, even though they were selected based on that experience. And, furthermore, they are not offered the services that go with that and will allow them to become integrated and participate in society at the economic, social and cultural levels. What immigrants want — whether they are immigrants from other countries or refugees as well, I suppose — is to be full participants and make their own small contribution to the effort to make Canada much stronger, and help it take its rightful place on the international scene.
People often say that we give money to immigrants, and that they receive services. But unfortunately, those services are not adequate. Some may say that they are being given too much money, and that they should not be given much more. But the result is the one I described earlier — people who are bitter, prone to depression, broken families, and children who end up in the street, or in gangs. And all those problems cost Canada a great deal of money. And they cost Canada a lot more than it would have to spend if it invested in services aimed specifically at those communities. I guess I should stop there for now.
Chantal Gaza, as an individual: Good afternoon, I am originally from Kinshasa in the Congo. I fully agree with my brothers and sisters. I would like to talk a lot more about immigration. Based on my experience, I would like to try and give you an idea of the obstacles we run up against on the ground.
I arrived in Vancouver only in January of this year. I came here, not because I chose to, but because of what is going on in my country. There have been all kinds of wars. The Congo is a country ravaged by war. I am here offering my potential: I am a young, intelligent woman, and I want to work. Fortunately, I speak French, but unfortunately, I live in British Columbia, which is an English-speaking province. African immigrants like me end up here simply because it is the only part of Canada where it is not too cold. It rains instead of snowing, and I really appreciate that. Vancouver is beautiful, but it is expensive.
For an immigrant who comes to Canada, welfare is nice at the beginning, but after that, people want to work. When you work, you feel useful. Getting up every morning to go to work gives you the impression that you are making a contribution as well as receiving something. We only ask to be able to work, in any field, but especially in the fields in which we have been trained.
I would like to emphasize the importance of information. When we arrive, we are not given enough information about what we can do, what services are available to us, and which door we can knock on. We do not really know what we can do. When I arrived, I understood that English was the dominant language here. I would like to learn it, but I do not know how to learn it. Sitting every evening in front of the television set listening to English is not enough to allow me to work in the language.
I want to work, but I cannot with the level of French I have. I had to start looking for work with francophone organizations. I am sure you would agree that francophone organizations cannot offer work to every francophone immigrant. The francophones here in Canada are not only from Africa; they come from Europe and all over the world. We find ourselves in a situation where we feel tremendous frustration. We have overwhelming potential, but we are unable to work. Canada is a fantastic country. It gives us an opportunity to start our lives over from scratch. But how can you start your life over from scratch if you cannot do anything! It is as though you were anesthetized, or forced to die slowly. When you are young like I am, you simply cannot accept that.
As Africans, we have certain values that we want to pass on to our children. Sometimes I start thinking about the future and about one day having children. But what kind of an example will I set for them? What will my children remember about me? It is not because I do not want to, but simply because I cannot.
By way of conclusion, I would just like to talk about the case of the Etibako family, all of whom died in a fire several months ago in Vancouver. This is typical of the kind of tragedy that we experience as African immigrants. Ten years after arriving here in Canada, members of that family had still not received their immigration papers.
In that connection, I want to make the point that the immigration process takes too long. When we come here as refugees or immigrants, we want to start over again. We want things to move quickly, if possible, and why not? Canada is also a land of welcome. Everyone does not have a chance to start over again, and Canada gives us an opportunity to wipe this slate clean. However, what is the point of waiting ten years to obtain one's citizenship! In the meantime, the kids are on the street and end up having delinquency problems. According to our values, a child should not end up in the street. He has to be able to contribute to the rent because mom cannot do it or dad is not there. That is a major problem.
What happened to that family is a catastrophe. We all deplored it, and if we can do something to change it, please, let us do it.
[English]
Senator Jaffer: In case you may not know this, there was a family from Congo who was here, and five people died — a friend, a mother and three children. We do not know the circumstances of the deaths, but they had been waiting 10 years to get their papers. The mother was hard working and a beloved person in the community. Almost 3,000 people attended the funeral. The community was very shaken.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: I am touched by your testimony. I am also disappointed to see that you have not been able to contribute to life here in Canada using your special talents. That is a shame. You talked about integration and networking. I am sure that you have already done this, but I will ask you anyway: have you spoken to representatives of francophone associations in Vancouver to tell them about your issues, as you are doing today? Have you had that opportunity?
Tania Leba, as an individual: First of all, I want to thank you for giving us this opportunity to meet with you today. I would just like to mention one minor detail to clarify matters. We are here as spokespersons for the African community. Among us are community leaders who work with associations that help francophone Africans, as well as other clients of these associations, and who have gone there to request assistance and services. So, you have these two perspectives.
There are francophone associations here in British Columbia. There is also the concept of francophone Africans, which is something special. Generally speaking, francophone associations provide services to francophone immigrants.
But they are not able to meet the demand, as we pointed out earlier. That is why we are forming our own group to see how to meet those needs and to give African francophone associations an opportunity to be here and be actively involved in the process.
Mr. Nawri, as an individual: I am here as an African. I just want to say that Africa is a huge continent. We tend to forget that at times. It comprises many different countries. Just to answer the question asked earlier about the francophone community — because I also work for the francophone immigrant community — there is a national committee, as you probably know, whose aim is to foster francophone immigration to anglophone provinces or to provinces where the francophone community is in a minority position. In British Columbia, the Fédération des francophones helped to develop an action plan in that regard. We are currently implementing that action plan.
There are services, but they are not adequate. We could move ahead much more quickly if we had the means to do so. There is an agreement between Citizenship and Immigration Canada and the province with respect to the delivery of services for immigrants. I am talking here about immigrants, rather than refugees, because they are still under CIC's jurisdiction. In terms of immigrant services, however, the province has responsibility.
Earlier we were talking about problems in terms of statistics. It is difficult to find out exactly how many francophone immigrants there are in Canada. It is generally difficult to quantify francophone immigrants, whether they are Africans or not. Citizenship and Immigration Canada compiles statistics on the number of people who ask to settle in British Columbia as immigrants. But what is more difficult to quantify are the numbers of people who have come from other provinces before settling in British Columbia. It is very difficult to quantify that. It also allows the province, which has an agreement with Citizenship and Immigration Canada with respect to a language clause stipulating that francophones have rights, to say: Well, who are these francophone immigrants compared to immigrants who have come from China, India, the Philippines or South East Asia? The fact is that we represent a very small proportion. That allows them to say: How can we possibly provide services to your entire population which is entitled to specific services, because it is francophone?
In addition, British Columbia has opted for the tendering system for the purposes of delivering grants or funding services. People have to apply for funding. That means that the different organizations are competing against one another. It did not work that way when CIC was in charge. As a result, organizations that had been there for years were much better equipped and had far greater experience with preparing an application and securing funding. Of these organizations, quite a few had financial troubles and ended up shutting down. It was a competition where the winner was the one with the highest bid — that is to say the one offering the most services for the least amount of money. I want to come back to the money issue that I referred to earlier. It is not right to be taking money from one to give to another. You could achieve an impact under this agreement if you were to ask, in terms of enforcement of that language clause, how it would translate into services for francophones who are not only from Africa but other countries.
So, we really do not understand. The reality is that it is not just Africans, but all francophones, who are not able to benefit from these services.
Mr. Magassa: This is a really interesting debate. Particularly the question raised by Senator Robichaud about people's professional background and the fact that they were expecting to be able to contribute to Canadian society.
I realized very early on that immigrants who come to Canada and have a professional background can contribute to Canada's development here in the community, not only upstream but downstream. They can also help to build bridges between Canada and other countries. Let me give you an example. Lily, who is a journalist, could represent Canada abroad and help to ensure that people have a better understanding of Canadian culture. My experience is with humanitarian issues. I studied conflict resolution in South Africa and I was able to see how people from the African communities here, especially refugees, were able to make peace between each other and the extent to which they would bring with them the problems they had experienced in Africa.
It is not only a question of looking at the interaction between Africans and immigrants; it is really about helping Canada and the Canadian community to see the kinds of issues we are grappling with. We could take that knowledge to Africa. If we were able, here in Canada, to resolve these community conflicts, it would be very beneficial to share that experience and understanding with other countries where there are conflicts. These communities and refugees can help us work in their countries of origin.
The people who come here with these diplomas and this knowledge do not only need to be integrated into Canadian society, in order to help Canada and to work here; their knowledge and their experience can always be put to use representing Canada to the rest of the world. This is something that we, as immigrants, and particularly as francophones, do not see happening. In government services where Canada is being represented abroad, more often than not, the door is closed as far as we are concerned. That is another issue we would like to debate.
Ms. Mudahemuka: I want to come back to Senator Robichaud's question about whether we could or had made contact with francophone organizations here. Most of the time, when people arrive in Vancouver, their first contact is with Éducacentre, the Centre Mosaïque, the Centre d'intégration aux Africains, or the Fédération francophone de Vancouver. I just want to point out, as an aside, that these organizations serve the entire francophone community, including Africans, Europeans and Canadians from Eastern Canada. African representation is too small for them to be in a position to help these organizations better serve the African community.
A number of us here work in these associations. We are doing our best, except that it really is not enough. For example, I could talk about Paul Mulangu, who is with our group, and runs an African integration centre. He helps Africans, but it is not enough. I believe it is the only typically African organization in place. The others work through francophone organizations. In fact, it is even difficult to get start-up and operational funding. I just wanted to mention that so that there could be some follow-up.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. I am going to give the floor to Mr. Mulangu, who will be followed by Mr. Masinda. The last question will be from Senator Tardif.
Paul Mulangu, as an individual: Madam Chairman, Mandela said that if you allow a Black person to speak, he will talk all day. And that is because we have not often been given the chance to speak. I am the Director of the Centre d'intégration pour les immigrants africains. The Centre has been in place for five years.
There is a problem with information. Information is not getting out. In British Columbia, you have to go to where the information is. An African coming to Canada does not know where to go to have a good time. You cannot go and ask someone who is Chinese or from another country; you have to ask an African. So, there is no information. And there is a discrimination issue that many people do not want to talk about. I have always talked about it. In British Columbia, the problem is discrimination.
There are francophones who have that status by virtue of the language they speak, and then there are the old stock francophones. But if you speak English like we do, you are not entitled to grants. You are only entitled to come and speak.
There is the Heritage Canada Foundation that provides funding to organizations but, as Blacks and Africans, we are not entitled to those funds. Why? A major problem relates to Canadian experience. We are told we do not have Canadian expertise. But how can we gain experience is no one offers us a job because we do not have any previous job experience in Canada. They do not know about our financial background. You create wealth with wealth, so how can I create wealth if nobody helps me to secure any?
There are a lot of things that remain unclear. There is the refugee problem. There is no training available to refugees; the entire immigration system is a mess. The example of the Etibako family clearly illustrates the problems that Africans are encountering. That woman came here as a refugee, with her six children. But once she was here, she was told she would not be given immigrant status because she did not have any ID. But when you flee a country like the Congo, you do not always have time to take your identity papers. In Africa, information is not sitting in a computer, the way it is in Canada. In Africa, there is nothing in a computer. So, that creates major problems for refugees. That mother came to Canada and because she did not have any papers, her six children were not entitled to federal government grants. She had to hold down two jobs to be able to feed her children. If her kids wanted a Nintendo game or something else, they could not have it. They did not have a father; they only had a mother who was fluent in neither English nor French.
According to our customs, when someone dies, the family, friends and neighbours, indeed, the entire community gets together for two weeks. But no one wanted to give us a place where we could do that. Fortunately, the Centre d'intégration pour les immigrants africains that I am in charge of was able to provide a venue. We were there for two weeks. The problem is that we do not have any grants. Fortunately, Public Works and Government Services Canada recently provided funding to us as anglophones. But as francophone Africans, it is really difficult to become integrated.
It is really difficult even to obtain any funding to help our people. We are doing this on a volunteer basis. I have been doing this as a volunteer for five years.
The Chairman: Thank you very much for your participation. If you have any additional written information to provide, please feel free to pass it on to our clerk.
Mambo Masinda, as an individual: It seems we really do not have enough time to look at the issue in depth. I would like to ask one small thing, and that would be to find a small amount of research funding that would allow us to really identify the gap between what Africans need and the services they offered. You would receive an excellent 15-page document that would probably provide you with a lot more information than you got tonight.
Senator Tardif: I was very moved by your testimony and you can be sure that I will pass on your message. You are right that as a country, we have to do a lot better when it comes to integrating immigrants and refugees through the services that we provide. I used to be dean of an academic institution. You are right that recognition of academic training and diplomas is critical. Often I tried to secure recognition of foreign diplomas, but I ended up by being blocked by provincial authorities or professional associations.
We have to take a closer look at these issues. I regret that you have had to experience these kinds of difficulties in your new country, but we will continue to work to improve things. I wish you the best of luck.
Senator Robichaud: If you came here today, it is because you are still hoping to be able to move forward, although perhaps not very quickly. I encourage you to continue to do the kind of thing you did today, because if you give up, unfortunately, no one will be there to do it for you. I want to thank you for coming and speaking with us today. As Canadians, we have to continue to ensure that we are all moving forward in the right direction.
The Chairman: On behalf of the members of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, I want to express my sincere thanks for your being with us this afternoon. I realize that we did not have enough time to discuss everything that was on the agenda, but I can assure you that your words have not fallen on deaf ears. So, I wish you the best of luck, and we will take back with us what you have provided today in the way of information. I would like to thank all of you and Senator Jaffer for inviting you to appear.
Ms. Mudahemuka: Thank you for your kind attention. Is there any way we can ensure some follow-up and perhaps arrange for the Committee to work with Africans once a year to see what kind of steady progress has been made? To answer Senator Robichaud's question, yes, today's meeting has been like a kind of therapy for us. We will continue to fight, and if you meet with us next year, we will have made progress.
The Chairman: Thank you very much.
The committee adjourned.