Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Human Rights
Issue 5 - Evidence, May 5, 2008
OTTAWA, Monday, May 5, 2008
The Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights, to which was referred Bill S-218, An Act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and to enact certain other measures in order to provide assistance and protection to victims of human trafficking, met this day at 5:09 p.m. to give consideration to the bill.
Senator A. Raynell Andreychuk (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights. We are studying Bill S-218, an Act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and to enact certain other measures in order to provide assistance and protection to victims of human trafficking.
We have before us by way of videoconference, from the regional area of British Columbia and Yukon, Lee Lakeman, Regional Representative, Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres. Can you hear me?
Lee F. Lakeman, Regional Representative (British Columbia and Yukon), Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres: Yes, we can hear you.
The Chair: Great; with you this evening is Alice Lee, Crisis Worker from the Vancouver Rape Relief and Women's Shelter. Is that correct?
Alice Lee, Crisis Worker, Vancouver Rape Relief and Women's Shelter: Yes.
The Chair: Who will make an opening statement?
Ms. Lakeman: I will.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Lakeman. Please start.
Ms. Lakeman: Thank you for the invitation extended to the Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres. I am particularly happy to report to a human rights committee, and I want to let you know that I am thinking in terms of human rights in that our human rights legislation should always be read together with our international human rights conventions. I am thinking particularly of the 2006 report of the Secretary-General of the United Nations, In-depth Study on All Forms of Violence Against Women. If you have not read that report, I suggest it is important background on this bill.
Also, the report, Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women, Its Causes and Consequences by Dr. Yakin Erturk, is particularly significant on this issue. I use the understanding of traffic victims that was developed in the Palermo accord and rely on that sense of all forms of threat and coercion, eliminating the question of choice or agency.
With those three things in mind, I have five points to make from the point of view of the Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres. I will proceed through them one at a time.
We have been dealing with victims of trafficking, particularly in Vancouver, but not only in Vancouver. That is why I brought a representative from a local membership group. In Vancouver, we deal not only with the international trafficking in people particularly from Asia, but also with Aboriginal women under forced migration from the North.
Victims of sexist violence, including women trafficked internationally, need a full range of supports, whether domestic or international victims. We have been particularly unhappy that the temporary residence permits, TRP, provided no income in the emergency situation in which women find themselves once trafficked into the country. Victims need income, both in the emergency form and also in job access. The improvement in the recommendations on access to jobs is helpful, but the emergency situation is not fully addressed, I would say.
On matters of equality, as trafficking is, we also say that women need advocacy of all kinds, including legal representation and translation, but also access to non-governmental groups, NGOs, that can advocate on their behalf. Of course, we must sustain those groups for them to be available. Health care is an issue, and the confidentiality of health records is an issue.
Our second point is that it is important that victims not be blackmailed into testifying or reporting. I understand the difficulty in this situation, but it is a difficulty that applies to violence against women in all its forms, both domestic and international. We need to face the fact that women who report to authorities within Canada have a great deal of difficulty in that chances of violence go up if they leave abusive husbands, for instance, and that situation is even worse in the case of the traffic victim. It is unwise for women to rely on authorities that do not respond to their particular information, and we do not respond well enough yet to their particular information to blackmail women. That is our big concern with this legislation. Many women who report to authorities on violence against women are unhappy with the outcome. Within Canada, only 30 per cent of the women who have great need of police call police because they are not comfortable and safe in doing so. The recent deaths in B.C. are a vivid reminder of that situation.
In any case of violence against women, it is not safe to overrule the judgment of the woman involved, and we are particularly aware of that situation in trafficking cases. She must be able to make some safety decisions on her own, and we must be willing to protect her in spite of whatever decision she makes. Blackmail is a serious matter in the question of the TRP and the extensions of the TRP. We are currently unhappy that the Canada Border Services Agency, CBSA, or the RCMP would make the decision on the extension in the current legislation. Since we agree that these matters are ones of human rights, it seems to me that we could have a better process than that one.
The third issue is that victims need routes to citizenship, both legal and social routes, and nothing in this legislation provides for that at the moment. I remind you that the very notion of human rights was developed after the Second World War when people were desperate to have some understanding that human rights were being tied to nation states and that increasing numbers of people were paperless. I suggest that in Canada we see increasingly large, forced migrations of people without papers. We are concerned that once women are inside Canadian borders, however that happens, and they are there as trafficked victims, it is important that there is some route to permanent citizenship, which we do not see here yet.
Our fourth point is that the question of trafficking is a matter of human rights, and those rights are indivisible by definition of the UN and should be available to all humans, regardless of their home country. Also, civil, political, social and economic rights all must be considered. In that situation, we need to think carefully about this bill within our immigration policy and relate it to our third-world aid as well as to our interest in security and border integrity. Since we see the issue as a matter of human rights within the country as well as within the world, the question of our own welfare rights and our equality agenda within the country must be taken into account when examining this bill. It is a problem that women cannot access welfare simply or evenly throughout the country, nor are we performing well on our equality agenda across the country. Those things must be taken into account if we mean to deal with trafficking.
I am prepared to leave it there and take your questions.
The Chair: Thank you, and I am sure there will be questions. As I understand it, Ms. Lee, you are here not to make a separate presentation but to assist in any questions that may be asked.
Ms. Lee: That is right.
Senator Munson: I want more specifics of the trafficking of Aboriginal persons and what route that trafficking takes. How many people do you think are involved? What is at play there? How serious is that situation?
Ms. Lakeman: I remind you that I am talking about the Palermo accord and that definition of trafficking in which it is understood that people who must migrate for what they need to eat or to function are considered trafficked. Vancouver has a large population of women in the Downtown Eastside who are essentially escaping inhospitable situations where they cannot make a future and they cannot survive. The young are trafficked down the highways by truckers, and women come into the cities looking for work or an opportunity of some kind to make their way. It is a large population. I cannot give you numbers, but it is certainly visible. What becomes of a number of women trafficked into the sex trade in the Downtown Eastside is what I was referring to.
Senator Munson: Do you know what the organizations are or who is doing this in a generic way? Who are these organizations that are trafficking these women?
Ms. Lakeman: I would say when we do not settle land claims and make it possible for people to live in their homelands, whether it is the Philippines or northern B.C., we are playing a part in that trafficking. Women are lured into the city and they are also pushed into the city by the unsustainable situation they are in.
Senator Munson: Can you give us an example of what happens with that person once that person feels trapped and cannot get out?
Ms. Lakeman: It is common that a woman of 15, 16 or 17 comes to Vancouver looking for a job or an education opportunity, or following an older man who invites her to the city. She is easily addicted at that age to street drugs or to the lure of the city, and then is quickly processed into street prostitution. Once she is there, drugs are required to sustain prostitution, or once she is hooked, prostitution becomes necessary to sustain the drug addiction. In both cases, she is trapped in the street trade and in drug addiction, and she is away from her family and supports.
Senator Munson: Do you know of any incidents of moving beyond our borders for these Aboriginal women who are trapped?
Ms. Lakeman: Yes, I know of several anecdotal stories, and I know of a circuit between here, Calgary and Seattle. I certainly know that women are traded down the coast.
Senator Munson: Thank you.
Senator Ringuette: This information is interesting. I am uneasy with what you have said about this trading that you are aware of.
You mentioned in your comments at the start that there is a need for legal and social routes to citizenship. I understand that need is not applicable, per se, to our Aboriginal women. I can understand paperless people. That is one of the things of which they must be afraid. If they manage to escape the traffickers' hands, they have no ID; nothing at all.
How do you deal with that problem currently?
Ms. Lakeman: I have only sad stories to tell you. In particular, a Japanese woman comes to mind. Her situation was told to us by a neighbour who was aware that there were a number of girls in a house. They were referred to as students. Later, it became clear that they were not students; they were being trafficked. The woman in the house was of grave concern to both the young women trafficked and the neighbours. A neighbour called us to say this woman was being beaten and held against her will and asked if we could assist. We did, in fact, call the police. We did deal with border guards. We did deal with the RCMP. This woman's child was taken into care. When the police went to the house, their response was to say, she is here illegally. They apprehended her child and put her child in care while the legal situation was resolved. Once that woman managed to free herself from the hands of the border guards, free herself from detention, her next concern was her child.
By the time we helped her out of detention and had her child returned to her, you can imagine that she had absolutely no trust in the authorities in Canada. In the end, she was deported, although she clearly was a trafficked woman. She left the country, but we knew that she was making contact with the man who had entrapped her because she had no other way of making her way financially with her child, and no one else had demonstrated any reason for her to trust them.
I have many sad stories on this question and no good ones yet.
Senator Ringuette: Thank you.
The Chair: I wish to pick up on that point.
From your perspective, how does one identify the person who is trafficked, as opposed to someone who wished to come to Canada and could not make it through the normal channels?
As I have come to understand it, I think there are three categories. First, the innocent person who wants to make a better life does not know what they are getting into and believes whatever story they are given about coming to Canada. They are totally unaware that they are being trafficked. They are totally unaware of what is happening until they hit the border, or later sometimes. Then, there is someone who comes to Canada illegally because it is the best hope they have, and so on. Finally, there is the person who comes in who is being either threatened or intimidated. There may be more other categories.
How does one go about assessing, first, in what category this person is in so that you can help them and, I hope, help the Canadian authorities understand the situation better? Am I making myself clear?
Ms. Lakeman: Very clear.
I am in the fortunate position of not having your job and not being a police officer. I am not so sure these categories are the right ones at all. My first question is this: Is this person desperate, and if so, what has made them desperate? That, for me, is an important human rights question and I think that concern should be the primary one, you will forgive me, of the committee.
I am concerned with what drove this person into the situation of being trafficked, and what is our human responsibility to people who are so desperate that they will board rusty boats and cross the Pacific; or climb into a truck with an unknown stranger and come down the highway, in spite of the murders on the Highway of Tears; or leave a reserve, where they know every single person and come to a city where they have no source of income, no protection and no well-being, knowing the racism and poverty they will face.
It seems to me the question of their desperation is our human rights question. I do not think rich, comfortable people are our problem here. I think the problem is that a lot of desperate people at the moment, increasing numbers of desperate people, are being trafficked in the sense of the Palermo accord in that they are pushed, forced, threatened or coerced or, for their mere survival, must migrate. I am concerned about those people.
If we start looking for who is not desperate, and make them play by the rules, that group would seem to be a much smaller one.
The Chair: I think you are coming at it from the area that I am not. As a society — because we put the provisions in the Criminal Code — we are trying to stop the traffickers; that is, those people who prey on the desperate people. Criminal law does not seem to be a fully useful tool, at least to this extent, because we cannot prosecute the traffickers unless we have evidence. Usually, the best source for evidence is from the person who was trafficked.
As I understand the motive behind Bill S-218 and the supporting issues that the government is dealing with now by regulation, it is how to help the distressed person and how to separate that person from the trafficker. If we do not attack the trafficker, will there be more traffickers in this world? That is, more people will traffic in human beings. We are told it is more profitable to traffic in human beings than it is in drugs and other issues.
How do we deal with that issue? How do we assist the victim in that situation?
Ms. Lakeman: I completely agree with what you are saying. I think it cannot be simply a matter of criminal law. It must be a matter of human rights law, and human rights law, by definition, takes into account civil liberties, economic rights and social rights. For me, the starting point is that Canada must be seen to be willing to err on the side of the positive treatment of the women and children who are trafficked. I know that men are trafficked as well, particularly for other forms of labour, but increasingly women and children are trafficked for sexual purposes. We must apply the lessons of women trying to use the criminal justice system within Canada on matters of violence against women.
You are right; the record is not great. We need to ensure that the basic needs of the women and children involved are primary and that we do not blackmail them or attempt to blackmail them into testimony. That approach does not work. That is the big argument why not to do it. This bill is still stingy in terms of taking care of the women and children trafficked. It does not err on their side. It is not in any way generous to them yet. I think we need a reputation that we will treat traffic victims well. If we build that reputation, we will be much more likely to have women come forward voluntarily to testify against traffickers. A mean-spirited attempt to blackmail them does not work.
The Chair: This debate is similar to one we had on family violence cases. When I started practising law, there were few charges for assault in a domestic violence case. The cry for help comes and then the police or the prosecutor lays the charges.
The victim is then put in that impossible situation of having to testify. Therefore, we started looking at other means and methods, which does not protect the victims of violence if they are still with the abuser. We are caught in this catch-22: It is hard to separate the abuser from the abused. I think we are doing a better job than we used to in that field, but we do not the right mix yet.
With regards to trafficking, do you believe that we can give a measure of comfort to a woman who comes forward and testifies against an international trafficker, let us say, who may threaten her family back home in the country of origin; who may threaten her; and who has had such control over her to bring her to Canada? Do you believe these people will testify voluntarily? What kinds of support systems do you envision putting in place that we do not have now?
Ms. Lakeman: Yes, I do envision it. I hope to be part of the supports we are offering to women and children. I was part of one of the first transition houses in Canada so I share your history with family violence.
I would, in fact, challenge your message. The evidence is that battered wives seek help more often and more effectively than most other victims of crime. They will keep up trying to find help until they find it. I suggest exactly the same thing happens with trafficked victims.
Ms. Lee can talk about the subject in greater detail but, in Vancouver, we were dealing with Fujian women who came on rusty ships and were dumped off the coast. We have dealt with many other trafficked peoples from other parts of the world. It seems to us to be the same as dealing with any other form of violence against women.
We can separate the attacker, but it must be by starting with the basic needs of the women and children trafficked. The agency has already been stolen from them by their abusers. The first important act in working with women who have been violated is to restore to them the agency over their own decisions.
I think that is part of what we need to do with trafficking. We can build a reputation for treating people well and for protecting their motherhood and their ability to protect their own children. If we do that, we will be told the truth by women who want a better future.
Not all women will tell us about each trafficker, but I think we can build a reputation and a way of working that increases the likelihood that women will use the criminal justice system.
The Chair: Your point is that if we provide the services, victims will then reach a point where they will be confident to come forward to testify. However, it is the ``pre-testifying'' that I am concerned about. The services must be in place.
Ms. Lakeman: Yes, we must build the services and they must be built on the basis of the human rights of the women and children trafficked, not on our needs for prosecution.
Senator Dallaire: How do victims arrive at your doorstep?
Ms. Lakeman: They come by word of mouth, mostly.
Senator Dallaire: Tell me a little more. How does that process work in regards to the conditions in which you ultimately find these trafficked people?
Ms. Lakeman: I speak for the Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres. We have a number of centres in every major community across the country and we have a reputation as having policy on protecting the confidentiality of women attacked. I think women pass that information on to others. Also, when we see outrages against women's human rights, we step forward. Sometimes we are identified as doing so and people know it is safe to call us.
Senator Dallaire: You qualified the tone of Bill S-218 as being less than sympathetic to the potential victim. The bill does indicate that it is seeking means for them to legalize their status and, ultimately, to provide them protection, health and so on.
Is there something in there that I did not catch in regards to the tone? The tone seemed to be one of — on the contrary — receiving and trying to sort out, versus one of having to prove how they landed on the beach and whether we want to throw them back in.
Ms. Lakeman: First, let me say it is a bit awe-striking to see your face and respond to you, speaking about people in desperation.
I do think the bill is an improvement. I do not want to be misunderstood. I also think the TRP is not, by any definition, generous. It does not supply people with income and I do not know how they are supposed to sustain themselves without it. It does not release them from the control of border guards. The border guards are the least sympathetic in this situation. I, at least, have no evidence that the border guards are being instructed in any way other than to secure deportation.
I am concerned that no mechanism is built into the act that would have us responding to the migrations of people as a human rights issue, not as an issue of policing our borders.
Also, the RCMP is urgent to obtain convictions on the criminal cases. Their interest is in securing these people as witnesses in a criminal case, whereas my interest is in the human rights of the people forced into migration.
Those things worry me. I see the bill as an improvement. I think it is still kind of cheap.
Senator Dallaire: Recognizing the scenario, I think you are absolutely right in the comment on desperation. People, for a variety of reasons, are desperate and find themselves somewhere else. In that sort of scenario, one must demonstrate a human dimension to their condition and then try to dissect the history of it and go on.
Do you see that the bill also tries to sort out the hand-over of these people? I do not say this in a paternalistic way. I mean in the processes of legalizing their presence, the bill does not cover enough. They are handed over from one agency to another — to a social agency, to a federally-funded social agency and so on — to sustain them for that 180 days.
I have the feeling the bill wants to accomplish that, but you want it to be much more specific. Is that correct?
Ms. Lakeman: Yes; we participated in a major raid in Vancouver that I think was a kind of test case on the TRP. That was some months ago; maybe a year ago now. It was clear in that case that the big talk does not work if there is no room for the NGOs to enter into a human relation with the trafficked people.
In that situation, there was clearly a turf war between border guards, local police and federal police, which meant the NGOs were blocked in their capacity to support trafficked people. We insisted in that situation that the trafficked people needed immediately to have legal representation of their own, and needed to have access to NGOs who could help them sustain life and limb. They did not have that support.
If we are seen as an adjunct of the state and put in the position of answering to, or begging, police to reach trafficked people, it does not work. In this bill, I do not see any built-in connection to settlement services, refugee agencies, or NGOs, much less to the gendered ones. In the case of sexual trafficking, gendered services are essential.
We need connection to equality-seeking women's groups and equality-aware human rights activists in this situation for it to work.
Senator Dallaire: In handling the cases that are not only trafficking in nature but the difficult cases you are talking about, do you know of any law enforcement agency or authority that has a training program in regards to how it works with — I like the term ``NGO'' — the types of scenarios we are speaking of here with regard to people in those extreme scenarios?
Do you know if those institutions create that capability within them by training their people and articulating an attitudinal position?
Ms. Lakeman: An office in British Columbia is trying to organize the relationship between NGOs and the authorities of the state. However, they have no money and no power. Thus far, I see it as not a productive exercise. Individuals within the RCMP and border guards have been somewhat more responsive, but there is no pressure on them yet to respond to non-governmental organizations.
It is exactly the same situation in terms of local police and local cases of violence against women in that there needs to be more honouring of the United Nations sense of relationship to NGOs. Even there it is still fragile.
When we have the UN Secretary-General saying this is the human rights issue of our time, the trafficking of people as well as violence against women, it must be fairly obvious that the groups who have developed expertise on violence against women are the equality-seeking women's groups, and there needs to be a more in-depth willingness on the part of the authorities to work collaboratively. Collaboratively does not mean us as an extension of the state; it means recognizing that we are independent and that there needs to be a back and forth; a critical liaison between us. No, there is no great training group.
Senator Dallaire: I do not see the bill stopping that. On the contrary, I think it opens the door with the right attitude. There is no real limitation as to how far they should go. Therefore, a minister can move extensively on this bill.
I must say, you present your case most eloquently.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Dallaire, for the questions. I thank the witnesses as we have come to the end of our time.
We have received an order from the Senate for our study on trafficked persons. I do not have the time now to read out the entire order, but no doubt we will come back to you on the whole broad issue of persons being trafficked, both within Canada and without, as this study will be one of our major ones.
Thank you for providing your thoughts on this particular bill, and thank you for the work you do in Canada.
Ms. Lakeman: Thank you very much.
The Chair: On the next panel, we have from the Comité d'action contre le trafic humain interne et international, Pierrette Boissé, Member; and Louise Dionne, Member and Facilitator. Welcome to the committee. Please proceed with your presentation.
[Translation]
Louise Dionne, Member and Facilitator, Comité d'action contre le trafic humain interne et international: Madam Chair, I will begin by presenting our organization, and then Pierrette Boissé will follow up with her comments on the bill. The Comité d'action contre le trafic humain interne et international (CATHII) was established in 2004 following a request by officials in Rome, calling on religious communities to get involved in the fight against trafficking in persons, mainly that of women and children. Following that request, a number of religious communities in the Province of Quebec banded together. To assist them, they brought together researchers, legal experts, members of the Montreal police force and community group representatives.
One of their first actions was to put together a play with the popular Parminou theatre company. The play, called Lost in traffic, was presented across Canada. It was written in French and then translated into English, and it won an award in France at a popular theatre festival.
We then took part in a study with the Université du Québec à Montréal on the issue of trafficking for sexual exploitation in Quebec. Following that, we helped develop awareness building sessions, which were given across Canada, and advocacy campaigns to sensitize MPs and local elected officials to the problem of trafficking. As part of those campaigns, we circulated a petition that we presented to Ms. Jennings, last year.
There have also been three public meetings to identify the needs of victims of trafficking. The first meeting in November 2006 brought together government stakeholders from the RCMP, Immigration Canada and Immigration Quebec, as well as representatives of community organizations and researchers.
A second meeting was held on March 8, 2007. A nun from Rome was invited to speak about her community's decision to provide women victims of trafficking with shelter. She shared her experience and explained how her community decided to act, which incited us to do something similar in Quebec.
And lastly, we had a public meeting with the provincial interdepartmental committee that deals with the trafficking of women in Quebec. We are still awaiting the final report that was supposed to be tabled in March.
Currently, we are continuing to deal with the issue of clients, because we believe that to combat trafficking, we also have to deal with demand. A researcher is working with us and will publish a study on that topic next fall.
The CATHII is committee to abolition. In our view, we have to deal with the issue of prostitution if we are to successfully combat the trafficking of victims. I think that Pierrette Boissé can talk to you further about our demands and make additional comments.
Pierrette Boissé, Member, Comité d'action contre le trafic humain interne et international: Madam Chair, I will speak as faithfully as possible on behalf of the committee I represent. I work with a CATHII subcommittee, in addition to working with the entire group. The committee has examined international conventions and compared what the protocols, and in particular the Palermo protocol, called on countries to do, as well as what was contained in Canadian legislation. As you know, after Canada signed the Palermo protocol, it took a while before the enabling legislation was drafted. That is but the beginning, but it is not enough, and that is your belief as well, obviously, since we are discussing Bill C-218.
I will point out the things I agree with and, at the same time, share with you my concerns and make comments, if I may.
First of all, I agree that the 180-day period in question for victims of trafficking should be extended to three years, what in the bill is called ``permanent resident status.'' My understanding is that one of the bill's objectives is to provide victims of trafficking with statutory guarantees, not administrative measures. I have been concerned with this issue for quite some time, because I have been hearing about trafficking for over four years, and I am told — and I am quoting people who have been in contact with victims of trafficking — that it can take a long time before a person is rehabilitated, depending on their circumstances, and if we impose a timeframe as short as 180 days, which is still better than what has been available until now, that might not achieve the intended objective.
In that sense, and after having requested the opinions of a number of people from outside the committee, we, the members of the international conventions subcommittee, think that the expression ``an officer may issue a victim protection permit'' does not go far enough. That has to become statutory. Allow me to stress that point.
I have read your latest work — Internet is such a wonderful learning tool — and I know that that question was debated and that people were very concerned about ensuring a certain freedom and flexibility. I believe that if we have to choose between two good things, we should choose what is best for the victims, and the three-year permit, which would lead to permanent resident status, appears to be the best solution.
The second thing I would like to mention is that there an urgent need for such a hotline, which should not be administered by the RCMP. I have the utmost respect — as you know, the RCMP has gotten bad press recently — for people working in that area, people whom I have met in Montreal and Vancouver and who are concerned with the welfare of victims. However, they are law enforcement officers, and I am not sure that victims would feel comfortable enough with them to talk about their problems.
In the same vein, I am concerned with the follow-up that will be done. For example, a victim will call the hotline and speak with a qualified responder. Where will she then be referred to? It seems to me that, as we consider establishing a hotline, we should also urgently think about a place and a system, which would be an emergency system, to be used by people before they are sent to a more permanent place where they can receive more adequate and prolonged care.
I know that you also have to deal with the various federal and provincial jurisdictions. I am really glad to note that victims will not be required to testify. What I am told, and here again I am referring to people who have been in contact with victims, is that, after a given period of time, once a person has had time to rehabilitate herself, once she feels that she is among people who are there to help her, she can agree to testify, as she could decide to return to her country of origin. But if she is asked to testify within a given timeframe, she might not necessarily be able to do so. It seems to me that those two issues are linked. The services provided to the victim should not be tied to her eventual testimony, that seems to be the compassionate way to go about this.
As I was thinking about all this, I told myself: they must have other means than to ask victims to testify; they must have many other means at their disposal.
I read the section in Bill C-24, an Act to amend the Criminal Code, which includes another definition of criminal organizations and according to which it would be easier to prove that persons are criminals. In a system like Canada's, proving that traffickers are criminals should not be so difficult to do, so long as you use all available means. Please forgive my naïveté.
As for the public awareness campaign referred to in Bill S-218, in order to properly reflect my colleagues' concerns, I would like to add clients to the list of people targeted by the campaign. The CATHII considers the legislation even if its members are not legal experts. We know that that has to be part of our mandate and that we have to speak with our representatives in the House of Commons and the Senate. We are also especially focused on the welfare of people and victims, these are two complementary aspects of what we do. In that sense, I would like to point out that in addition to being a member of the CATHII, I also belong to the board of directors of an international organization that is currently carrying out a campaign to put an end to the demand for trafficked persons, because we also want to implicate clients. We want to change people's mentality with regard to this issue, like what was done with the antismoking campaigns, even though the issue of trafficking is far more serious.
One of the documents that I read spoke of legislation that could be similar to the refugee act. People who are victims or who claim could apply for asylum in the same way that refugees do. However, there absolutely needs to be a distinct piece of legislation for victims of human trafficking. They face different sets of circumstances, allow me to insist on that point for the love of truth and of what I believe in.
Senator Dallaire: Good evening ladies, I would like to welcome you to our committee. I am pleased to hear the presentation of a group from Quebec. It is such a rare occurrence. The Parliament of Canada also has the power to change things.
You are asking that the clients of people who are sexually exploited be held accountable so that they understand that they are part of the problem and, as such, part of the solution.
Ms. Boissé: Everyone has heard of situations in Sweden where, as opposed to Canada where it is the prostitutes who break the law, it is the clients who use the prostitutes' sexual services who are punished.
Senator Dallaire: That is certainly not reflected in the bill.
Ms. Boissé: I would not venture that far, because I am not an expert, but that is why I said that if a public awareness campaign is to be conducted, clients should also be targeted. In other words, there should be something especially intended for clients. That is not all that could be done, but it would be a first step. I am told that actions are being taken out West, I believe it is in Winnipeg, where photographs are taken of the licence plates of cars belonging to men who solicit sexual services. There are ways to deter people from such activities.
Ms. Dionne: In Quebec, an organization whose goal is to change people's mentality on prostitution has just received a grant from Status of Women Canada. This group of women had just made a contribution to research on sex trafficking. One of the findings was that demand is a significant factor. Even if we get involved by helping victims, this effort is useless so long as people continue paying for sexual services.
Mentalities must be changed so that those paying for sexual services can acknowledge and assume their responsibilities. Violence against women lies at the heart of the issue. Countries that have legalized prostitution have been sorry for it because of the increase in trafficking within their borders.
Senator Dallaire: The argument in favour of police disclosure and making temporary resident permits valid for up to 180 days are related. A victim of violence is entitled to receive care for as long as it takes to recover. The victim must feel supported in order to help authorities track down the traffickers. Unfortunately, there are very few solutions right now. From this perspective, victims' testimonies become a very important factor. What is missing is the victim's sense of security. Do you not believe that the legislation opens the door to this possibility and seeks to provide victims with a sense of security; or on the contrary, do you feel that the law is restrictive?
Ms. Boissé: If we give women the time to regain their confidence, sooner or later, they will agree to testify. This is not negligible. When I talk about other ways, I am not trying to downplay the importance of a testimony. We cannot ask someone who has been traumatized to put their life at risk. I do not know if this is the case in Canada, but in certain countries, if somebody says a bit too much, it is over.
Senator Dallaire: Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: As a follow-up question, having the victim of a trafficking situation testify is difficult, as you say. It needs time. What other kind of evidence could they obtain about trafficking other than circumstantial evidence that the person was with the victim at the time and brought her into the country, or something of that nature? It seems that prosecuting the person trafficking is usually linked to the person who was trafficked.
Will the criminal route be helpful to us?
Ms. Boissé: There are places in Montreal, in Vancouver and in different cities — I mention Vancouver because I lived in the west for a while and I know people there — where people are rescued. That is, there are places for refugees such as Covenant House in Vancouver. I do not think they were aware that the people they received could have been trafficked because no one was talking about trafficking. I think we were the first ones in Canada to come up with the subject and say, let us do something about this.
Maybe we can start with the people who are being trafficked. I understand that there are people there. Where are they? Often, they are hidden. They go from one place to the next. They are brought from one city to another. They will not come to me and say, I am being trafficked, help me. I do not need to tell you that. That is not how it will work. Once something exists for them, it will not take long for the word to spread.
How do we reach the traffickers; that is, the gangs, the criminal element that organizes the trafficking? That is beyond me. I am willing to put my life on the line, if I need to, to save women who are being treated as objects and in such terrible ways. I am sure you have heard of people who have talked about it, for example, Victor Malarek, among others. We would not be here if it were not serious.
The Chair: Thank you. I think Senator Phalen had a supplementary question.
Senator Phalen: Yes, to Senator Dallaire's.
One of the most contentious issues in the bill that I have found in meeting with different groups is the issue of reporting to the police. The bill says that they qualify if they choose to comply with, any reasonable request to assist the investigation of the prosecution of their traffickers. They qualify for a victim protection permit. However, that assistance is optional. It is not something they must do; it is something they can do.
The reason I stayed with that provision, even with all the objections that I heard at different meetings, was that I thought it was almost necessary for that person to report to the RCMP, for example, to reach the trafficker. If they do not report, it is difficult to reach the traffickers. I am sure we will hear about that issue from the RCMP later. We do not have all kinds of traffickers being arrested. For that reason, I decided to leave the provision there.
I tried to soften the provision because these victims come from countries where they do not trust law enforcement. When they come to Canada, they do not trust the law enforcement officers here. How do you ease them into trusting law enforcement? With this bill, in the first instance we suggest they go to NGOs and use the hotline. These people will educate them about what is ahead, for example, they will tell them they will have a lawyer. They will have legal aid and all these things. They will tell them not be afraid of the police. It is not like they are walking in off the street and reporting this. They are eased into it. They go to these groups, for example, to the NGOs and to people in the Department of Health who will educate them in the system. Hopefully — in my opinion, at least, with this bill — they will go to the RCMP. That is my thinking on it.
The Chair: I am sure there was a question there.
Senator Phalen: No, it is an explanation.
The Chair: I will remember that the next time. Ms. Dionne, you had something to add?
[Translation]
Ms. Dionne: I have worked with domestic workers under the family assistance program, and often the problem is that authorities are unresponsive when employers are denounced for cases of abuse. On several occasions, employers have taken advantage of the program to bring in other domestic workers. When a victim of human trafficking recounts what has happened to her, regardless of her testimony, she is sounding the alarm. Authorities already have the information they need to proceed further, regardless of the victim's testimony.
In sexual trafficking, often, the victim has been abused to such an extent that making a new start in life can take years. In cases of sexual trafficking, physical and psychological abuses are egregious. A victim loses all sense of self and sometimes abuses drugs. To hope that people will collaborate after three years does not follow this logic. I believe that the bill is good for those who are already in control of their lives and themselves. For those who have been here for more than two years, the bill lacks teeth.
I am pleased to see that the health sector, and not the RCMP, is working collaboratively to assist victims. This creates an environment of trust between community organizations and the authorities.
[English]
Senator Munson: When you said you were willing to put your life on the line, I thought about a fascinating read in the recent edition of The New Yorker magazine. It is a 16-page article of a woman that has put her life on the line in Moldova, but the whole story spreads to around the world. The article is an incredible piece of journalism. I hope that, as a committee, we can use it as some of our background work in terms of our study.
When officials from Citizenship and Immigration Canada appeared before our committee a few weeks ago, they suggested that one of the problems with Bill S-218 is one clause that would provide a ``blanket amnesty'' to trafficked persons that may have also committed other serious crimes. They contrasted this situation with the current policy that allows for a case-by-case analysis of inadmissibility.
Can you give us your perspective with regard to the potential ``blanket amnesty?''
[Translation]
Ms. Dionne: It depends on what crime you are talking about. In Canada, anyone who is part of a prostitution ring is already a criminal. The Criminal Code and prostitution already pose a problem as regards providing adequate protection to victims of human trafficking. I do not know what other type of crime would be at issue here.
[English]
Ms. Boissé: That is what I was wondering. When a person is brought into Canada under false pretence, is coerced and is living in all kinds of conditions that are not even human, what crime can we possibly accuse her of?
The Chair: Maybe I can intervene. It is not that she would be charged with a crime by virtue of being brought into Canada but, assuming some other crime occurred in Canada, say murder, should there be a blanket amnesty for that crime? That was, I think, the question, if I understood and recollect the information.
The department says that the way the bill is written might mean that no matter what crime this person committed in Canada, they would not be allowed to be charged by the way the bill is written. It would not be the fact that they came in as a trafficked person; it would be as a result of maybe more intimidation, et cetera, from the trafficker. They would have committed a crime independent of crossing the border, shall I say.
Ms. Boissé: No matter what, the laws are not enough. That is my first reaction. The law alone will never solve the problem.
Second, if the case is an extreme and rare one, will that prevent us from adopting a law that could help people? There will always be exceptions or extreme cases that we cannot even think of. I would think that the person would kill herself before killing someone. It did happen.
That is a hypothesis.
[Translation]
Ms. Dionne: It raises the question as to what extent a victim of trafficking, held in captivity, and under someone else's influence can be held responsible for a crime that took place while that person was in that situation What leeway do they have when their freedom and life are in danger? I do not know, but it is certainly not someone who is free to go and to make choices.
[English]
Senator Munson: A few weeks ago, the bureaucrats left us with the impression that things are fine. They have the present tools and guidelines under citizenship and immigration policy to deal with respective victims of trafficking. You are obviously saying, no, it does not go far enough.
How far should we go, beyond Bill S-218? You endorse some of the aspects of this bill. Is there something else where we can be tougher?
Ms. Boissé: People who work with refugees already have too much to do, not enough time, not enough personnel and not enough money.
This is what I hear. I heard from one person who works in Windsor, I think. She is not happy with what is happening with the refugees. I do not have any knowledge of that situation, except what I hear.
This trafficking question is so serious and so big — and becoming larger all the time — that I think it should have a separate formula. If everything goes under the refugee ``stuff,'' excuse the expression, then it will be lost. The women will not be protected.
I know we do not have numbers. You have been told that more than once. We know why we do not have numbers. I do not know why we cannot have the numbers in Canada while we have them in other countries. However, maybe other countries are more advanced, maybe they estimate or maybe they have other means of knowing the numbers.
We can assume that when 600 strippers come into Canada in one year, some of them are trafficked, especially if they come from the same region of Europe.
I do not have any proof, but it is obvious to me.
When there is a big sporting event and, all of a sudden, there is a lot of prostitution, chances are good that there will be a lot of trafficking. To me, that is a big argument, even if I do not have a number.
Senator Munson: What would be in your trafficking legislation?
Ms. Boissé: We worked on this one, and we were happy to work with Senator Phalen. It is one more thing that we did not have. I am always thinking of the Palermo Convention. One thing that bothers me is that a person who is trafficked is considered a victim, even though some people do not like the word ``victim,'' and I can understand why. However, we do not have that many words to talk about those persons. One thing that really bothers me is that, in that protocol, it is said that it does not matter if the person consented to sexual acts.
I know that trafficking is not only for that purpose, but it is mainly for that purpose, especially if we talk about women. There is nothing in Canadian law that says that.
Therefore the poor woman will come and testify, and she will eventually give in and say, ``I did say yes; I consented.'' There will be what they call the Stockholm syndrome. That is one thing that is nowhere in Canadian law.
I will not make a law because I do not think that is my job. However, I can at least tell you what I think should be in the law.
Senator Munson: It is about building blocks and new ideas.
[Translation]
Ms. Dionne: I would add that the issue of resources for prevention and victim protection might be one of the problems. Amendments have been made to the Canada Health Act but will new resources be deployed so that organizations can provide assistance, at least for the purpose of collaborating with authorities? Often, when community organizations provide information to Immigration Canada, often to their own detriment, they need a permit or they have to seek lawyers themselves. We need a bill that will better protect victims and place greater emphasis on prevention, and address the issue of demand. Both of these are lacking right now.
[English]
Senator Phalen: The bill allows for psychological help. Do you think that a victim, by reporting to the police, would get some kind of closure from that; some kind of satisfaction?
[Translation]
Ms. Dionne: I would say that had she received the support of specialists to do so, testifying alone would not have been sufficient. There is a need for specialists, psychologists, psychiatrists, and doctors in order for the healing process to begin.
[English]
Ms. Boissé: Sister Bonetti in Italy, who has worked with trafficked women and who is still doing a job throughout Europe and even came to Ottawa, said that the women will talk among themselves, but there are things that they might never reveal, even to those who have welcomed them and are willing to help. Somehow, it is too painful and too difficult.
That is why one of the things we need is experts. We need people who will know enough about how to work with trafficked persons to help them, not to coerce them into testifying. It might be a healing process in the long run.
[Translation]
Senator Dallaire: My experience has been with child soldiers. Girls caught in this conflict become sex slaves or bush wives; the first problem we face is that these women then become stigmatised by society. Secondly, the women feel guilty for having been raped. In this context, it takes one to two years before they can become stable and find a way of reintegrating themselves into society. These women have been sexually exploited, are victims of a criminal act, and are put under the yoke of authorities in exchange for protection. They are not necessarily able to express themselves, and must endure this experience. Why turn to NGOs to resolve these problems? Under federal or provincial legislation, are there no formal procedures to take care of these women? Why does our society have to depend on NGOs to carry out this job? I am not speaking negatively about NGOs, but I do not feel that this is the proper way of doing things. Do you not believe that the bill sends a message to the minister telling him that there is work to be done and that it is necessary to deploy resources?
Ms. Boissé: As you know, this is the history of Canada. Who founded Canada's schools? Who founded Canada's hospitals? Who took care of people living in the street? Everything always started with the NGOs.
Senator Dallaire: Or communities.
Ms. Boissé: It is the same thing in a way. We are an NGO community. That is the way it works because public servants are public servants.
I do not mean to diminish people's value, but perhaps the role of public servant handicaps the more human side. That is what I assume because I have an idea what Senator Dallaire thinks.
It looks like that is the path people take because NGOs and religious congregations get things started and then eventually, the government takes over when they can no longer keep it up or the limits are too great.
That is why we try to make representations before members from various ridings. That is why we are so happy to see a senator proposing a bill like this. That provides tremendous support for what we are trying to do because we are just little people. You are powerful.
Senator Dallaire: You will have to explain to me where that power lies. Public servants are of course going to protect the government. Of necessity, they are always going to look for the bad apple who is going to try to take advantage of the system. Do you not think that when you read what you see here, the goal is to have a minister who can influence public servants and be more humane and provide resources more humanely and clearly rather than purely bureaucratically and clinically?
With the 180-day rule, the 300-day rule, I think these are the initial steps. Perhaps it does not go far enough, but at least it is a step in the right direction.
Ms. Dionne: You would have to announce that the government is going to change and reinvest in health. Community organizations have picked up the slack because there were budget cuts over the last 20 years. It is the community organizations that encounter people on the frontlines.
In Quebec, you have the CLSC experience, but there have been so many budget cuts that it is the community organizations that have picked up the slack. The same thing goes for the rest of Canada. I use Quebec as an example because that is the one I am familiar with.
If the wind is shifting, I am very glad to hear it.
[English]
The Chair: I thank the witnesses for their contribution. Their nervousness did not affect their forcefulness and caring spirit.
Senator Dallaire, we have many panels from Quebec, so it is not unusual. In fact, the next panel is from Quebec.
Senator Dallaire: I need to be convinced.
The Chair: We need to ponder that we have heard witnesses say that services coming from the police and the bureaucracy are sometimes questioned by the people who were trafficked because they are scared of bureaucracies and governments. I will not raise the further point about provincial-federal responsibilities. That discussion is perhaps for another committee at another time. Thank you for generating the debate and the work you do.
Honourable senators, our next witness is Professor Jacqueline Oxman-Martinez from the University of Montreal. Welcome, professor. You have an opening statement, I understand, and then we will ask questions.
Jacqueline Oxman-Martinez, Professor, University of Montréal, as an individual: Good evening. My comments are based on 10 years of research experience focused on human trafficking. The research started with analysis of federal policies and practices in response to the Transnational Crime Working Group, today the Interdepartmental Working Group on Trafficking in Persons, IWGTIP. International and national scientific and lay publications have systematically followed. Additionally, I have participated in knowledge transfer to the community sector.
I appreciate the Senate work on the dangerous issue of human trafficking, and deeply thank Senator Phalen for his commitment to the protection of trafficked persons and the introduction of Bill S-218. The general public and some state officials are still unaware of this contemporary expression of human slavery, almost undetectable in Canada.
There are a number of positive elements in the proposed bill and also some discrepancies, from my own perspective. The first element is the important recognition of the need for changes to the current immigration legislation as stated previously by various reports by the Canadian Council for Refugees, CCR, as well as the reports we heard about today.
A second element is that the bill increases the protection of trafficking victims living in Canada, foreseeing precise legislative measures to provide help and protection to those victims who are in Canada without a legal status. I will avoid the use of the term ``victims'' and the rationale underlying is related to the need to treat trafficked persons not as commodities but as agents of their own lives. Agency is defined as a socioculturally mediated capacity to act and is informed by western liberal humanist traditions that presume the existence of autonomous individuals deploying free will to struggle against the societal structures and, in this specific case, against their oppressors.
Protection and issuance of permits should not be conditional on cooperation with authorities. In proposed subparagraph 24.2(1)(b)(i), the long-term protection is subject to the possibility that a foreign national, or a family member, would suffer a form of harm. In proposed subparagraph 24.2(1)(b)(ii), the willingness to comply with ``any reasonable request for assistance in the investigation or prosecution of acts of human trafficking'' is questionable in the sense that the word ``reasonable'' is not defined in the text and it might deviate from the obligation to assist. Furthermore, trafficked persons are threatened by traffickers and fear retaliation for themselves and their families.
Among the above-mentioned measures is the legalization of the status of trafficked persons through a temporary residence permit of 108 days to later facilitate the attainment of a status for a three-year permit and, in the long term, permanent resident status under certain circumstances. Both statuses, short- and mid-term, would allow trafficked persons to have access to needed health and social services provided by the provinces that requires the existence of a status. Currently, limited emergency medical or social services might be given by the interim federal health program to trafficked persons. No fees are payable for processing an application of a victim protection permit. Moreover, the bill proposes the right to work or study in Canada and the no-fee principle is applicable.
Bill S-218 recognizes the need to grant immediate temporary protection with a low threshold of proof. It is suggested in the standard of ``reasonable grounds to suspect'' that the person may have been trafficked. The bill proposes protection if the person may be or may have been a victim of human trafficking. The situation is often unclear and difficult to determine quickly, especially when the persons concerned have not had an opportunity to develop trust in officials. Furthermore, officials in the respective countries are sometimes corrupt. Currently, there is no specific paragraph in the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, IRPA, regarding trafficked persons. The definition falls within the flexible regulation as interpreted by the officers at Citizenship and Immigration Canada, CIC. Its incorporation in the act reflects stability and protection procedures.
A third element is the adoption and integration of the definition of the United Nations protocol to prevent, suppress and punish trafficking in persons, especially women and children. Bill S-218 provides a more complete definition than the one stated in section 118(1) of IRPA. Among the transitional provisions, the bill proposes the creation of a hotline under the authority of the Minister of Health. This move is appropriate, as the RCMP is associated with the security and police work. This association can create mistrust in at-risk populations.
All state agencies working with the protection of trafficked persons and the NGOs involved with the issues of structural and systemic violence should be in constant horizontal and vertical communication to act together and avoid potential tensions. The protection of trafficked persons highlights the need to consider this phenomenon from a human rights perspective rather than a criminal one under which both protocols emerged in the context of the Palermo Convention.
NGOs have the advantage of creating trust in relation to their mandate. Nevertheless, they are underfunded, overloaded and their practitioners require specific training on how to reach out, protect and treat trafficked persons.
The Chair: Thank you, professor. We are now ready for questions.
[Translation]
Senator Dallaire: Do you think this bill is a meaningful step or it is just a first attempt at making government responsible for people caught up in an illegal system? Does this show a more humane attitude toward the people involved and a desire to resolve this problem, or is it still not enough?
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: It is a big step, Senator. I am delighted that it is a big step. There are other things to be done, but I have no doubt that this is a huge improvement in terms of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.
Senator Dallaire: Again, I would like to come back to the clause that talks about wanting to reasonably meet the demand. Do we not have any NGOs, supported by the federal or even provincial government, to act as a buffer between the authorities and/or maybe a bridge between the authorities and the people in order to give them the time they need to establish that atmosphere of trust in order to come to their assistance? The plan is to try to limit the problems.
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: NGOs do a huge amount of work that goes beyond their mandate. There are very few NGOs with a specific mandate to help the victims of human trafficking. Most NGOs that work with victims of trafficking, except for CATHII and some others in Vancouver or in Ontario, deal with the problems of violence against women. That type of violence, that is mostly domestic violence. Other NGOs provide protection to refugees. They are going beyond their mandate. There are very few NGOs that work directly with victims of human trafficking.
Just to make this a bit clearer, working with victims of human trafficking and getting them to disclose the sequence of events is as hard as getting a child to report incest at the hands of a parent. The control and power situation is so great that it is very difficult to get that disclosure. That is why in the first part of my presentation, I said that training should be giving to NGO workers who work with victims of human trafficking. These people are not victims of trafficking; that was a slip on my part. Specific training is needed. They do so voluntarily, in their way.
Senator Dallaire: Does your research include any data on domestic trafficking within Canada, particularly involving Aboriginal people and specifically children under 18?
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: Justice Canada commissioned me to do a study on human trafficking and particularly domestic trafficking; that mainly involves First Nations women and children.
We have worked with over 40 NGOs that provide services, including, among the many other services they provide, what is called ``hard statistics.''
[English]
We do not have hard statistics. There is no statistical evidence.
[Translation]
The only ones who could give us any reliable statistics so far were the RCMP, who gave us some data. Even we researchers do not have easy access to that data. Currently, I know that the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics has initiated an effort to set up with Statistics Canada a database on people involved in human trafficking. I myself answered a long questionnaire that they sent us. There is a move toward getting compelling quantitative statistics. But that does not mean that just because we do not know it quantitatively, we cannot know it qualitatively. All of the testimony we have heard was qualitative testimony.
The RCMP statistics show that 600 people have been victims of human trafficking for sexual exploitation; 800 people have been victims of human trafficking for exploitation for other types of business; and there are 1600 people in total, victims of human trafficking, who go through Canada or for whom Canada is a transit country. But those are the only data we can rely on, and it is not enough, we think it just the tip of the iceberg.
[English]
The Chair: Can I ask you to give us the title of the document that you referred to, for the record?
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: Victims of Trafficking in Persons: Perspectives from the Canadian Community Sector.
The Chair: What is the date of the publication?
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: It was published in August 2005 by the Department of Justice.
Senator Munson: You said we have a hard time accessing the statistics. What is the barrier?
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: There are enormous barriers. Community organizations that could gather statistics are not willing to do so because they could disclose confidentiality. The issue is controversial.
Researchers do not have access to many trafficking victims except in the cases where our community organizations ask permission or consent from the victims. Researchers are ruled by an ethics board, and we need to receive signed consent from the victim to deal with trafficking issues.
It is difficult in that, first, we obtain consent from the community organizations to disclose the names of the victims and then obtain permission from our ethics boards to access the victims. We cannot access them directly. They must be accessed through the community organization.
Sometimes, community organizations are also threatened by traffickers when they know the organizations are working with trafficking victims. It is worse than drugs. One does not access drug lords easily, in the same way that one does not access human traffickers easily, either.
Senator Oliver: Is it not designed to protect the victims?
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: It is designed to protect the victims but, in the meantime, as one discloses and moves closer to the truth, and probably closer to the trafficker, one becomes endangered.
Senator Phalen: How do you account for the fact that the RCMP tell us there could be as many as 800 victims of human trafficking, and the NGOs tell us there could be as many as 16,000?
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: The RCMP cases are the cases that have been disclosed openly. The NGOs work with cases in confidentiality and secrecy because victims are afraid of the RCMP. If victims come from countries in which corrupted officials or corruption within the state system is usual, why would they trust Canadian officials? Who gives them a reason to trust?
Senator Phalen: Can I conclude, then, that the NGO figure of 16,000 victims is closer to the truth?
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: With all due respect to the RCMP, the NGO figures are much closer to reality.
Senator Goldstein: I apologize for coming late. I was at another committee meeting.
Thank you for appearing to speak with us and for sharing your expertise. I am disturbed by your assertion that the NGOs are reluctant or unable to disclose any information. Is it correct to say that without disclosing names, identities, addresses or anything that might identify victims, NGOs nevertheless could tell researchers, especially researchers, the quantity of victims and the characteristics of the victimization? Otherwise, how on earth are people supposed to deal with the situation?
You are right in saying that the RCMP figure of 800 victims is undoubtedly less than the reality because people do not go to the RCMP. I understand why. You provided a number of reasons for that situation, and there are additional ones. Some victims are immigrants who are concerned about being deported. There are all kinds of reasons for people not to provide information.
However, surely if NGOs have the information, they should somehow supply it so that the people of Canada can be made aware of the magnitude of this problem.
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: One simple reason they do not provide the information is that sometimes they do work that is not in their specific mandate. Therefore, they might be penalized for doing work that they are not required to do. That is one reason, but it has been argued.
Another important issue when talking about numbers is that numbers must be collected in a standardized way to be reliable. If we collect numbers in different ways, we can arrive at different conclusions. That is why the CIC and Statistics Canada attempt to collect data on trafficking victims. It seems to me reliable in terms of expertise of reliably collecting data in that we would not doubt data collected by Statistics Canada. We know they follow standards with respect to data collection, and they do so under standardized procedures.
The Chair: Are you also saying that part of the problem is that we have started to identify human trafficking as an area of concern so that we are catching up? In other words, Statistics Canada and CIC are starting to collect data because the field is becoming known and critical?
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: I think interest is growing in Canada, which is encouraging for researchers because the policy-makers are taking action. There is an interest in supporting what has been discussed about the volume, the scope, of human trafficking in Canada. I imagine that is the reason why Citizenship and Immigration Canada and Statistics Canada are willing to do it.
They are taking only the first steps, like a toddler learning to walk. They are preparing a large national consultation on the type of data they should collect and the priorities in terms of data collection.
The Chair: I have one final question. You have taken issue, as others have, with the term ``victims'' of human trafficking. What word or words would you substitute?
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: Agents.
The Chair: Agents of?
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: Yes, agents of, having a free will. That would be important also in terms of the two protocols: One is against trafficking and the other is against smuggling. When we talk about trafficking, we talk about victims. When we talk about smuggling, we talk about irregular migrants and a threat to the States.
In talking about victims, on the one hand, we take away part of the empowerment or the resilience factors that these women might have. They have resilient factors because they survive. We have examples: Among others, Cherry Kingsley, who has published and has an organization that is on the Internet.
They are survivors of trafficking. They are open in the world. It is much better to talk about them in a positive way than in a way that is ``misérabiliste.'' I do not know how to translate it.
That is why I would rather talk about agents.
Senator Ringuette: You talked about your research briefly. I listened carefully and I appreciate your comments.
Has your research brought you to some link between drugs, smuggling and trafficking? Is there a cross-over between those organizations?
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: I have not conducted research in terms of crime rings or in terms of criminalization. I have conducted research from a sociological perspective. There is a big difference between Aboriginal trafficking — domestic trafficking — and international trafficking.
Among the persons trafficked domestically, they are willing to leave their own community to escape from poverty or alcohol. However, they are already drug addicts. Children, at the age of seven years old, who are trafficked are also already into drugs.
Victims of international trafficking, according to community organizations, come to the country clean in terms of drugs. To cope with the lives they must lead, they come into drugs. Traffickers sometimes oblige them not only to consume drugs but to sell drugs and to commit other types of infractions, which could lead them to become ``criminals.''
Senator Ringuette: However, your research has not looked into the possibility of this crossover of the crimes that are committed?
In business marketing, we would say one would start with the drugs and then there would be the offspring of trade, trafficking. Then, there would be the children. Maybe I am wrong in what I foresee is a vicious cycle.
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: You are referring to an interrelation among the three. Probably, there is. I do not have evidence, but the criminal rings seem to be the same.
The Chair: Thank you, professor, for giving us your perspectives and what data you could get your hands on through your research.
It is helpful in our assessment of Bill S-218. We will embark on a study on trafficking, so no doubt we will look to you for further and different aspects in the future. Thank you for coming this evening.
Ms. Oxman-Martinez: Thank you very much. I am pleased to cooperate.
The Chair: Senators, we have on our final panel this evening, from the Canada Border Services Agency, Megan Imrie, Director, Horizontal Policy and Planning Division, Enforcement Branch. From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is Mike Cabana, Chief Superintendent, Director General, Border Integrity, Federal and International Operations.
We welcome you both. We want you to tell us how the human trafficking issue is dealt with now.
We understand that you are not here to say whether the bill is good. We do not put you in that position. However, many questions came up in a last session that we were told: We cannot answer that policy implementation concept; that belongs to the RCMP; or that belongs to the border service.
You are here to enlighten us on the present state and anything else that you may wish to say. If you have opening statements, please proceed.
Megan Imrie, Director, Horizontal Policy and Planning Division, Enforcement Branch, Canada Border Services Agency: I have opening comments, which I believe you have copies of, and will also answer any questions.
It is my pleasure today to appear before you to discuss the subject of trafficking in persons and the measures that the Government of Canada, specifically the CBSA, is taking to identify and protect victims of trafficking in persons, as well as to punish the perpetrators while shutting off the flow of victims.
Trafficking in persons, TIP, is an appalling crime that exploits some of the world's most vulnerable people, including women and children. Consequently, it is of utmost concern to the CBSA as well as to our partners. While Canada has been working with its partners for many years to combat TIP, recent elevated public profile has generated new opportunities to work with the international community to come up with viable solutions.
[Translation]
In order to combat human trafficking, the government of Canada has adopted a victim based strategy. Like other countries, our strategy is based on three pillars, the three ``ps'': Protect the victim, prosecute the trafficker and prevent the offence. We have added a fourth ``p'' to that, partnership: Establishing partnerships within our organizations and federal departments, among various organizations and departments as well as with non-governmental organizations and the international community.
[English]
The Government of Canada collaborates with its international and domestic partners, including our provinces and territories, as well as with civil society members in the fight against TIP. Both Canada and the U.S. have either adopted new laws or amended existing legislation to implement the United Nations trafficking protocol.
The CBSA contributes to many international fora on trafficking in persons. Our department co-hosted a conference, along with the RCMP, titled ``Empowering the Victim, Developments in Human Trafficking,'' in Washington last week, and I had the pleasure of attending and opening the session. This event was an opportunity for the governments of Canada and the U.S., as well as other partners, to share information and raise awareness on the issue of trafficking in persons.
Canada also participates in the Organization of American States, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the UN, the G8 and the Regional Conference on Migration, all of which promote the sharing of best practices and anti-trafficking efforts.
[Translation]
In order to combat human trafficking, Canada combines legislative prohibitions with other measures. The Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and the Criminal Code set the legislative framework for combating human trafficking. Transnational human trafficking has been an offence under the act since 2002. Similarly, since 2005, there have been new human trafficking offences added to the Criminal Code.
[English]
Protection of victims is a shared federal and provincial responsibility in Canada. At the federal level, the Interdepartmental Working Group on Trafficking in Persons coordinates anti-trafficking efforts. This working group is comprised of 17 departments and agencies and is co-chaired by our Department of Justice and Department of Public Safety. CBSA has been and continues to be an active participant in this group since its inception in 2004.
This group serves as a centre of federal expertise, which works to strengthen federal responses through governmental policy development on TIP, information exchange and the facilitation of international and national cooperation. In addition, the Government of Canada works with provincial and territorial partners to combat TIP by raising awareness and by training law enforcement officials to identify victims and to prosecute offenders successfully.
Guidelines have been developed to provide information on the identification and protection of victims and useful tips for interviewing victims. Since 2007, all new border services officers receive additional training that covers trafficking in persons. The training focuses on victim identification, interviewing techniques, procedures in dealing with victims and sensitivity.
[Translation]
In 2006, Canada took steps specifically designed to protect victims. Each victim is entitled to a temporary resident permit, which gives them 180 days to get over their ordeal and consider their options, and at the same time they can access health care and trauma counselling.
[English]
Identifying trafficking victims and encouraging them to come forward is key to stopping human traffickers. When potential victims arrive in Canada, they may be unaware of what is in store for them, or when they become aware that they are being exploited, they may be sufficiently intimidated by the trafficker that they refuse to seek help from the authorities. In either case, they may deny being trafficking victims.
The identification of victims may prove especially difficult at the port of entry since victims may not be aware that they are being trafficked. Once a person is a suspected victim, the border services officers liaise with regional intelligence officers to ensure that persons concerned are referred to the RCMP for a determination of their possible status as a victim of human trafficking as well as to Citizenship and Immigration Canada for consideration of a temporary resident permit.
The CBSA is committed to continuing collaboration with its partners in the fight against TIP. Through a regime of education, outreach and understanding, this collaboration will contribute to the government response to this problem. I thank you for giving me the opportunity to be here today and I will do my best to answer any questions.
Mike Cabana, Chief Superintendent, Director General, Border Integrity, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police: Chair and honourable committee members, I thank you for inviting me here today. I will be pleased to answer any questions you might have on what policy the RCMP has in place to address the needs of the victims of human trafficking once these victims come to our attention and what is offered to assist individuals who are identified as victims of trafficking.
The RCMP defines a victim of human trafficking as any person recruited by a trafficker through force, fear, fraud or deception for the purpose of exploitation.
The trafficked person may seek a better life but instead may be forced into sexual exploitation, forced labour or other forms of servitude, or may even be trafficked for organ removal.
A person can be a victim of trafficking without crossing any borders. Children are particularly vulnerable to exploitation as they have limited comprehension of events unfolding around them. Traffickers use various methods to maintain control over their victims, including force, sexual assault and threats of violence.
The extent of victimization must be recognized as a significant aspect of this crime. Persons are reduced to, and treated as, nothing more than a commodity.
[Translation]
When it comes to human trafficking, the RCMP's mandate is to cooperate with social and government organizations in Canada and abroad in order to protect and improve quality of life through education, prevention and enforcement.
[English]
To fulfill this mandate, the RCMP established the Human Trafficking National Coordination Centre here in Ottawa. The HTNCC, as we call it, works in collaboration with international, national, provincial and municipal agencies, as well as non-governmental organizations, to develop policies, mechanisms and initiatives to combat human trafficking in Canada and abroad.
One key objective of the centre is the protection of victims through the development of protocols and witness protection procedures in collaboration with the RCMP source witness protection program.
In many cases, during the initial stages of human trafficking investigations, the RCMP liaises with the Canada Border Services Agency and Citizenship and Immigration Canada to determine the status of the victims in Canada.
This partnering is critical, as it allows the RCMP to pursue the investigation. It also provides a mechanism by which victims can access various avenues of assistance available to them, such as medical treatment, trauma counselling and shelter in a safe environment away from their exploiters.
As you may be aware, identifying victims of human trafficking is challenging. They are often traumatized. They may speak a different language or they may simply be afraid of police.
[Translation]
The RCMP, together with its partners, ensures that victims get the services available to them, including health care, emergency shelter, social assistance and legal aid. In conducting our investigations, out of concern for the victim, we feel that we have come up with initiatives that provide better protection for victims.
[English]
The Human Trafficking National Coordination Centre has developed policies that specifically outline the responsibilities of the RCMP field units when they suspect that a human trafficking offence has occurred, or is occurring.
Included in this policy are victim-assisted guidelines for both international and domestic victims of human trafficking. These guidelines are designed to follow a victim step by step, from point of identification onwards, and to ensure that the victim's rights and interests are protected and their needs addressed in a matter that is appropriate and effective.
The RCMP has made significant strides in the development of relationships of trust with non-governmental agencies and faith-based groups. For example, in partnership with the B.C. Ministry of Children and Family Development, they have developed a working group comprised of social service providers, law enforcement agencies and other government departments directly involved with human trafficking.
I will comment briefly on human trafficking and the 2010 Olympics. I am aware concerns have been expressed that criminal groups will use the Olympics as an opportunity to bring in large numbers of trafficking victims.
The RCMP recognizes that with any large event, there will always be people looking to profit illegally from others. The RCMP is working with federal, provincial and municipal officials, and focusing on prevention and awareness, which includes training of front-line enforcement prior to, during and after the Olympics.
The RCMP is working with the Canadian Crime Stoppers Association to develop a national awareness campaign to inform the public and possible victims of the steps to report human trafficking cases.
The RCMP, through its joint intelligence group, continues to monitor intelligence relating to all criminal activities surrounding the 2010 Olympics, including human trafficking, and will take all appropriate and necessary measures to combat criminal organizations involved in these criminal activities. This approach is entirely consistent with Canada's current effort to prevent trafficking, to protect the victims and to prosecute the offenders. We will build on these strategies to respond specifically to human trafficking in the context of the 2010 Olympics.
In closing, let me reiterate that the identification and rescue of human trafficking victims and the prosecution of traffickers is of the utmost importance to the RCMP. Thank you for inviting me, again, to appear here today and I will be pleased to answer any questions.
Senator Munson: Thank you for coming here tonight. The earlier testimony that you listened to painted a picture of the RCMP as a difficult place for victims to go. One witness said, it is clear victims would not be at ease with RCMP officers.
How will you change that whole situation or attitude when victims, whatever the figure may be, whether 16,000 or 800, are in this country and they are hiding in the shadows? They do not want to talk to you. They do not want to talk to someone in a uniform. They are scared when they left, probably, and they are scared when they are here.
With all respect to what you have said, how do you cross that bridge?
Mr. Cabana: Unfortunately, I believe that is an accurate reflection of today's realities. It is also one of the main reasons why the RCMP, with its partners, including CBSA and CIC, are focusing on the awareness campaign.
As with many new initiatives in Canada, it takes time for these initiatives to be implemented. When we deal with human trafficking, the harsh realities of the people that suffer this type of crime and the fact that a number of these individuals come from countries where, maybe, the trust or the relationship with law enforcement is not established, or not like it is here in Canada, it takes time to establish that relationship.
Through the awareness campaign, we hope to inform potential victims of the services that are available. I truly believe that, over time, as cases come to the forefront and become public, people and victims will realize that the proper procedures, guidelines and support are in place for them. I hope that, over time, more victims will self-identify.
Senator Munson: The testimony by your colleague sitting beside me, Ms. Imrie of the Canada Border Services Agency, is that the new training since April 2007 focuses on victim identification, interview techniques, procedures in dealing with victims and sensitivity. Do you both have the same training techniques? Are the same people conducting similar training on the issue of sensitivity, or are they two different departments with two different organizations?
Mr. Cabana: I am sorry, senator, your question is directed at whom?
Senator Munson: It is directed at both of you. I want to make it clear that this new program has been in place since April 2007. Are the same people training at both the CBSA and the RCMP?
Ms. Imrie: There is various training, depending on the audience and the need. From the perspective of the Canada Border Services Agency, we have training that is called port training. It is for our new officers in terms of front-line operations. There is a 13-week training program in terms of their duties to become a border services officer. We have integrated a module that deals with human trafficking, in particular, and which provides techniques with respect to the victim-centered approach to dealing with potential victims as well. That particular training is provided for our officers in line with our broad program.
In addition to that training, we have access to the RCMP training for our law enforcement officials. More experienced officers in the field also have access to the workshop. Perhaps I will let my colleague continue.
Mr. Cabana: I will echo what my colleague said. There is a range of training initiatives or responses. Both our agencies have internal training mechanisms in place to provide our respective personnel with the knowledge and expertise that they require. In addition, both agencies, in partnership with CIC as well as the Status of Women Canada, have workshops that are conducted nationally in different locations to provide awareness to other front-line personnel.
Human trafficking is not a responsibility strictly of the RCMP or CBSA. It is also a responsibility of every law enforcement officer in Canada. Jointly, we provide these awareness sessions across the country.
Senator Munson: I guess you cannot comment on the bill before us, but if someone came up with an idea of a hotline, would you like it?
Mr. Cabana: Yes, I guess we would like it. This is something that I can inform this honourable committee about. We would like it so much that we have been pursuing that avenue ourselves, recognizing the resistance or concern that the victims might have in calling law enforcement.
One of the initiatives that we have presently with Crime Stoppers is for them to assume that role. Crime Stoppers already has the infrastructure in place to manage these calls 24/7. A protocol has been developed where Crime Stoppers, in concert with the RCMP and CBSA, will roll out an awareness campaign nationally, as well as providing a 1-800 number for people to report potential incidents of human trafficking and for victims to self-identify.
Part of that process also includes protocols, should a victim self-identify, on what Crime Stoppers is supposed to do with that information to ensure that once the person comes forward, they do not have to wait for the response to be provided.
Senator Goldstein: I have a number of questions. First, my recollection of the Palermo Convention is that it envisages the creation of a voluntary grouping of various national agencies, both NGOs and law enforcement people, to try to combat this horror. What has Canada done to encourage that international cooperation? I notice Ms. Imrie is making notes, so I will continue.
Second, I have a concern that thus far, everything that has been described to us by Ms. Imrie and Officer Cabana — and I am not belittling it because you are working well within the resources you have — is that there is no outreach program. There is no program where, for instance, you inform First Nations communities that there is a voice and a heart on the other side of a telephone to listen, without their being identified, to problems occurring in their families. That situation is true not only in terms of First Nations but of everyone else.
I see, day after day in every newspaper I read, publicity with respect to Employment Canada. Obviously, they have a budget for public relations alone, which is well beyond the aggregate budget of both your groups.
Surely, we should devote money to creating outreach programs where people can assert their concerns without identifying themselves, but possibly talking about victims and encouraging victims to identify themselves once their friends, relatives or acquaintances know that facility is available to them.
Third, how many individuals suspected of trafficking or suspected of being victims of trafficking — and I use the term although we are told we should not — have been stopped at our borders in the past year? Do you have any statistics?
How many prosecutions have taken place? I am not talking about successful prosecutions. I am talking simply about prosecutions. Do you have those statistics?
Mr. Cabana: There are many questions there. First, thank you for recognizing that both our agencies are doing the best we can to work within the resources available to us.
I will try to break down your questions, and then possibly pass them on to my colleague.
We agree wholeheartedly on the importance of outreach. In 2008, the Government of Canada provided new funding. Again, in the big scope of things, some would say it was a relatively small amount, but it is a start. There was $6 million provided to strengthen the initiative to combat sexual exploitation and trafficking of children.
Part of these funds went to the National Child Exploitation Coordination Centre that the RCMP manages here in Ottawa, and part of the funding went to the Human Trafficking National Coordination Centre I referred to earlier. The centre used these funds to implement or put in place coordinators regionally, across the country. The sole role of these coordinators is outreach, engaging in discussions with NGOs, municipal, provincial and other federal level agencies; developing protocols and solutions; and reaching out to the community to provide necessary information to ensure the victims have an idea of what is available to them.
In terms of expanding on outreach, part of the workshops that the CBSA, the RCMP and the CIC conduct across the country through the various enforcement agencies also include human trafficking kits that include posters and business cards. Soon, Crime Stoppers information will be added to these kits. The kits are left with the investigators in attendance to distribute and post in appropriate locations.
In terms of statistics, the number of potential victims who have been intercepted at the border, I will let Ms. Imrie answer, given the role of the CBSA at the ports of entry.
Ms. Imrie: To my knowledge, there have not been any victims of trafficking intercepted at the border. Generally, in terms of all the instances that I am aware of, they would have been found inland, not at the border. If you want me to comment on the scarcity of those statistics, I believe we talked about the challenges with respect to identifying victims.
There is also the fact that, in terms of incidents of trafficking, where there has been exploitation, at the border, the exploitation would not have occurred at that time. It would have occurred subsequent to their arrival in Canada.
To my knowledge, there are no statistics with respect to incidents of trafficking at the border or victims of trafficking. Principally, the incidents in existence would be, for instance, human smuggling, which we know to be different.
If I can comment on the international aspects in terms of coordination, from the CBSA perspective, there is a great deal of international cooperation with respect to general issues of migration, human trafficking in particular. We work closely, as we do with the RCMP, with our U.S. partners with respect to issues of border protection through the Integrated Border Enforcement Teams, IBETs, that would look for instances of either smuggling or trafficking.
We also have a network of migration integrity officers abroad who are experienced and trained to work with their partners and the airlines to address the flow of irregular migration, whether it is trafficking or others. There is a network that tries to combat the flow of irregular migration as well.
Senator Goldstein: Can you give me some idea about the quantity of prosecutions?
Mr. Cabana: Unfortunately, I have a suspicion that my answer will probably not come close to addressing your question.
I think there must be recognition by this committee that human trafficking in Canada is a relatively new phenomenon. Even though it has been discussed, in my lifetime as a police officer for some number of years, it is still a relatively new phenomenon.
In following the wonderful work you have completed, I want to address some of the statistics that have been used.
The RCMP, in trying to wrap its mind around this emerging problem and trying to scope out the extent of the problem, conducted a survey of investigations conducted in Canada, recognizing that, at that point in time — I believe the study was completed in 2004 — the collection of statistics specifically dealing with human trafficking did not take place. They did not exist.
Therefore, the RCMP looked at other investigations that may have had an underlying human trafficking component that, at the time, was not detected because our investigators were not looking for it; we were not attuned to it.
I am leery of using the figures of 600 to 800. I suggest the committee should approach them with caution because that is how those numbers were developed. Again unfortunately, it will take time to establish credible statistics.
We still have front-line investigators who do not recognize the extent of the problem and do not necessarily know what to look for. This situation is what we are trying to address via the workshops. We know, and can advise the committee, that we are realizing some success.
I believe the committee is likely familiar with the case in 2006, I believe, with regard to the Peel regional police force. The investigators had recently attended one of these workshops and were probably a little more attuned to what to look for, and their ability to detect the existence of the potential trafficking case was greatly enhanced.
Presently, we have 17 cases. I am sure you understand I cannot give the specifics of any one of those cases. However, 17 investigations are ongoing. This does not mean that all 17 are, in fact, human trafficking cases. Some are suspected of being human trafficking. Others, to a large extent, have been confirmed. Investigations are happening.
All this is to say that, with time, I believe we will improve at what we are doing and the statistics will be more meaningful.
Senator Goldstein: What would you need and what would it take in terms of human resources to establish an optimal ability, from both your perspectives, to deal with this terrible tragedy?
Mr. Cabana: Thank you for your question, senator. It pains me to say that, until we have scoped the problem in more detail, it would be premature for me to explain exactly what is required.
I think what is required at this point is probably an enhanced collaboration of the law enforcement communities across the country to ensure every front-line officer we have has the expertise necessary to deal with this issue. The only way we can attain that goal is if the law enforcement communities, along with the NGOs, participate in this awareness campaign.
Ms. Imrie: I reiterate that point as well. From a CBSA perspective, likewise, we would not be in a position to comment on the resource implications of enhancing the efforts. Certainly, we feel we could do more in the area of raising awareness and ensuring our officers are trained, and that there is greater collaboration. We are taking those steps and will continue to take them. Further than that, I do not think I could comment.
Senator Oliver: The good news, Madam Chair, is that I started with three questions and now I have one. Senator Munson asked my hotline question, and Senator Goldstein asked my question about the number of people intercepted at the border and the success with their international cooperation. Therefore, I will not go over the same two things again.
My question relates to Ms. Imrie's statement on page 4:
Canada introduced measures specifically designed to protect victims of human trafficking in 2006. Victims are now provided temporary residence permits, giving them up to 180 days to recover from their ordeal and reflect on their options while having access to health services and trauma counselling.
One question prepared for us for this meeting says: The bulk of Bill S-218 is already contained in a citizenship and immigration policy with respect to victims of human trafficking. Why is the proposed legislation necessary? Second, what is different between what you said in 2006 and now?
Ms. Imrie: I was referring to the measures taken by Citizenship and Immigration Canada with respect to the temporary residence permits. I was introducing the current system we have today, where victims of trafficking would have access to a temporary resident permit. It was 120 days; now it is 180 days where they can reflect on their options, recover from the trauma and work with partners and NGOs, et cetera. We are referring to what has been introduced by Citizenship and Immigration Canada recently.
Senator Oliver: Have you taken a look at Bill S-218?
Ms. Imrie: Yes, I have.
Senator Oliver: What do you say about it?
Ms. Imrie: I cannot comment on the bill. CIC would have the policy leadership with respect to temporary residence permit and would be the one to comment on the bill as it is proposed. From a CBSA perspective, we enforce the acts and legislation that are in place and, should there be any changes, we enforce any new laws. I do not believe I can comment further on Bill S-218.
Senator Dallaire: Ms. Imrie, I want to ask you about the training side of the house. How long does it take to train one border services officer?
Ms. Imrie: Formal training is provided in our training facility. It is a 13-week training program that covers the gamut of their operations. That training is not the only training; it is the training that is provided to new recruits to ensure they have a particular level of awareness. Additional refresher training or regional training is provided, as necessary.
Senator Dallaire: That is what I am trying to address. Is this subject covered in one lecture? Is it covered over a day, or three days? Do they go through scenario exercises to understand this issue, or is a supplementary course given for weeks somewhere else for everyone?
Ms. Imrie: Again, training has a multi-pronged approach. There is a specific module. I believe it is a day, but I can confirm that for the committee. This module would go through the principles around identifying a victim: Taking a look at the attributes of the individual, what are the physical aspects of someone, what are the indicators to look for, what are the statements made and that kind of thing. It would also talk about the protocols with respect to the legislation that would apply and the process to follow, et cetera.
As we spoke about earlier, there are also workshops that are more interactive and case specific. Perhaps Mr. Cabana can comment more on those workshops. They provide videos, and NGOs are there as well as some case studies that are available to law enforcement officers that attend the workshops.
Senator Dallaire: That training is not obligatory for every border services officer?
Ms. Imrie: Not at this time.
Senator Dallaire: Will border services officers be armed?
Ms. Imrie: We are phasing that in.
Senator Dallaire: Every one of them will take training with the weapon and every one of them will take annual refreshers with the weapon. Additionally, you will put in place all kinds of ensuring rules and training to be sure they do not shoot themselves or others.
Why would a subject like this not take a more significant presence in the training? If you want to work in something as complex as collaborative efforts with other agencies, you have to spend a lot of time on that subject. Are you enhancing your training programs because of this requirement?
Ms. Imrie: I definitely agree that more can be done and should be done. For instance, when I say there is mandatory training for new officers, they receive a module on human trafficking. It is part of the process or the agenda. Certainly, more can be done.
For instance, we have identified that our inland enforcement officers need greater training with respect to identifying victims, identifying who to work with and identifying when to go to the CIC.
It is something we will continue to enhance in cooperation with our interdepartmental working group, and maximize or leverage any training that exists. CIC is working on an interactive CD and updating their training, and that training is made available to our officers.
Senator Dallaire: You have a zillion subjects, I am sure. What this bill is trying to do, at least with the Minister of Health, is to enhance training and capabilities. We do not have a warm, fuzzy feeling that a lot of effort will be put into training. Hopefully, it will be offered sometimes. There is not often a sense that these subjects will become mainstream training requirements of the staff.
Mr. Cabana, you are part of the national police services capabilities, are you not?
Mr. Cabana: Yes, senator.
Senator Dallaire: Do you provide this capability throughout the nation to all the other enforcement agencies in the country in regards to the investigation of trafficking?
Mr. Cabana: I am not sure, senator, that I understand your question. I want to ensure that I focus my answer to address your question. If you are asking whether the RCMP's responsibility is to investigate human trafficking cases across the country, clearly, yes, it is part of our responsibility. It is also the responsibility, under the Criminal Code, of the police of jurisdiction. It is also a responsibility of our partners at the municipal and provincial level.
[Translation]
Senator Dallaire: Why is it apparently essential to follow up with the RCMP? After all, immigration staff are supposedly trained, and it is an immigration problem too because there is illegal entry. Why not leave it in their hands for a certain period of time, which might give people a chance to adjust?
I think that is what this bill intends. I do not think the bill says provide the information or you cannot stay.
Mr. Cabana: Absolutely, but in today's reality, it is important to involve law enforcement agencies as soon as possible to enable these agencies to secure any potential evidence. That does not necessarily mean that the victim has to cooperate right away and commit to participate in subsequent court proceedings.
But it is important for investigators and law enforcement agencies to get involved in the file as soon as possible and to try to establish some relationship with the victim, even though it may take several months to establish that trust.
Senator Dallaire: The Health minister, in the bill, is mandated to do many things progressively in order to improve these peoples' ability not only to survive their ordeal, but also to become a citizen and ultimately, I think, stop the traffickers.
Does RCMP philosophy or culture include a meaningful move toward cooperation or even integration with NGOs that pick up the pieces and ultimately perhaps have considerably more data and information than you? Do you have a formal education process at various levels to enter into and become a part of that network?
Mr. Cabana: The relationship among police officers, police forces and NGOs has existed for a long time. So that relationship is already there. Where the thinking has changed somewhat, is in relation to the reality of human trafficking. Is there anything concrete in place? Yes. That is why there are coordinators. These coordinators, for the most part, are not police officers. They are set up in the regions precisely to engage in discussion with NGOs and bring them to the table to develop solutions. We realize, as a police force, that the experts in victim care are not necessarily in our agencies. So we realize that it has to be a cooperative approach.
Senator Dallaire: Does that mean that you employ civilians who are responsible for integration with NGOs?
Mr. Cabana: Yes.
[English]
Senator Phalen: Do we export victims as well as import them? Do we export anyone? I have heard at conferences that other countries have as big a problem exporting as importing. Are we in that position?
Mr. Cabana: Although the empirical data may not be there or it may be sporadic, I believe Canada is recognized as a transit country. I believe the potential is also recognized for some of our own people, Canadians, to be exported or trafficked abroad. My answer to you is yes, I believe that is a reality.
Senator Phalen: When I first started looking at this issue about a year and a half ago, the figure they were throwing around was that it was a $9.5-billion criminal industry. When I was in Vienna at two conferences, the figure thrown around there is $30 billion. How big is trafficking in persons as a crime? Previously, it was compared with drugs and armaments. Where does $30 billion put it?
Mr. Cabana: Senator, if I may be so bold, and again this goes to my aversion to statistics, I submit that where this offence fits into the scheme of things is not relevant when you look at the impact it has on the victims and the communities they come from. Regardless of where it fits in, it is still something we must look at.
Senator Phalen: I am only trying to establish the enormity of the crime. How big is this crime? That is the information I am looking for. I think it is probably one of the biggest.
Mr. Cabana: It might well be. I hope it is not.
Senator Phalen: You said a while ago that you have established a hotline. Do you think it would be better if it went through another department that would walk callers through the process rather than talking directly to the RCMP?
Mr. Cabana: To clarify my previous answer, senator, the hotline does not come to the RCMP. The hotline comes to the International Crime Stoppers Association, which is not law enforcement but a civilian body. Our role is to provide the necessary support to Crime Stoppers and to help them develop the expertise required to address each and every call properly to ensure that it receives the importance it deserves.
Senator Phalen: When was the hotline introduced?
Mr. Cabana: I do not know whether it is operational yet. If not, it will shortly.
The Chair: I understand police work, having prosecuted, defended, and so on. I know how you will go about human trafficking. You will look at the law to see how you will apply it. You will look to your guidelines.
One question we had last time could not be answered by the witnesses who appeared before us. Say you are an officer standing at the border and someone is coming through. Do you have a profile? Do you have a guide to alert you? If that person is carrying weapons, there are certain things that you look for; perhaps under the seat of a car, as someone said.
What are the officers given to alert them to the fact that it might be a human trafficking case and that this person might have been trafficked? I do not mean a definition here, but what do the border agents use as an aid? Do they have a manual that you can file with us, or do you have an answer to that question for us tonight?
Ms. Imrie: Yes, that question is a timely one. We are working at updated guidelines on human trafficking that will be part of our enforcement manuals and will be accessible to all border service officers. Those guidelines will talk about all those things. What are the indicators to look for in terms of identifying a victim of human trafficking? What is the protocol with regard to referrals to the CIC, work with the RCMP as necessary, and NGO contacts in terms of services that may be available?
That manual is currently being updated and will be available for our border services officers. That manual complements the training that currently exists, which covers that material.
The Chair: Anything that you can give us will be helpful.
Ms. Imrie: Sure.
The Chair: The other part is that we want to identify the nature of this trafficking problem. It is horrific; it is horrendous.
On the other hand, in the human rights field, I want to be sure that someone who enters the country is not unduly labelled. For example, the world is full of stories about young women coming out of Eastern Europe. We almost jump to the conclusion that they are being trafficked because they fit a certain profile. What about the person who truly wants to come into the country as a visitor, an immigrant or a refugee? We do not want them profiled inappropriately. Have you given that subject any thought?
Senator Goldstein: That is a good question.
Ms. Imrie: Currently, our border service officers deal with that issue on a daily basis in terms of dealing with individuals coming to our border. They are trained with sensitivity in terms of determining immigration status. I believe they have the wherewithal to deal with that issue in terms of questioning the individual, taking a look at the travel documents, any certain indicators, treating people with respect, and so on.
We do not have a lot of evidence at this time with respect to trafficking because there is not a great deal of evidence in incidence. However, those issues are ones where we have certain specific indicators where they would then provide a referral to CIC without making those judgments. I am not sure if that answers your questions.
The Chair: Thank you. If you can give us any information, I would appreciate it.
On the one hand, we want to identify the crime. On the other hand, we want the process of entry to Canada to be legitimate for everyone so people who enter are not put into a category. There is always that tension that legislation like this act gives us an opportunity to think about.
Ms. Imrie: Certainly.
The Chair: I thank the witness and I thank senators for their patience. We have sat in a cold room. We tried to change that, but, unfortunately, could not.
The committee adjourned.