Proceedings of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs
Issue 4 - Evidence - April 16, 2008
OTTAWA, Wednesday, April 16, 2008
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 12:11 p.m. to study on the services and benefits provided to members of the Canadian Forces, veterans of war and peacekeeping missions and members of their families in recognition of their services to Canada.
Senator Michael A. Meighen (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: We have a lot of work to accomplish. We have distinguished witnesses and want to hear them out completely and ask questions. We have some housekeeping business concerning the adoption of the budget to do at the end of the meeting. I will try and conclude this a little earlier than 1:20 p.m. as we have to be in the Senate at 1:30 p.m.; otherwise, we will get into a great deal of trouble.
I want to welcome our witnesses today — Jean-Luc Dutil and Bruce Ferguson who are representing the Canadian Merchant Navy Veterans Association Inc. We hope to have a fruitful discussion with you about pensions and other veterans' issues or whatever you would like to bring up.
For the benefit of my fellow senators, the CMNVA — I see the merchant navy is also addicted to acronyms — is the Canadian Merchant Navy Veterans Association Inc. It is an organization of Canadian and some allied veterans from World War II — correct me if I am wrong, gentlemen — who served in the merchant navy. Bruce Ferguson is the current president and will be speaking to us today.
[Translation]
Mr. Ferguson is accompanied by Mr. Jean-Luc Dutil, Executive Vice-president, Canadian Merchant Navy Veterans Association Inc. Gentlemen, welcome to our committee.
[English]
Mr. Ferguson, I turn the floor over to you. I know honourable senators will have questions. Today, we have Senator Banks from Alberta, Senator Nancy Ruth from Toronto, Senator Day from New Brunswick and Senator Dallaire from Quebec who, I am sure, needs no further introduction to you. I am Senator Meighen from Ontario.
Bruce Ferguson, National President, Canadian Merchant Navy Veterans Association Inc.: My name is Bruce Ferguson and I am presently the national president of the Canadian Merchant Navy Veterans Association Inc. With me is my executive vice-president, Jean-Luc Dutil. Thank you for the opportunity to address this subcommittee.
My understanding is that we will discuss pensions and benefits and how they impact on former World War II merchant seamen. Perhaps at this time a short recap of the role played by the Canadian merchant sailors and their contributions to the allied victory, as well the subsequent betrayal by successive Canadian federal governments, would be in order. Historians have repeatedly stated that a major factor contributing to the eventual allied victory was the courage and perseverance exhibited by members of the merchant navies in which Canadians played a significant role. We are all familiar with the injustices shown towards these unsung heroes, the shabby treatment or, better still, the lack of treatment or understanding shown to them.
The benefit package that arrived in 2000 gave some monetary compensation but did not adequately address the long-term health and physical needs of these aged men.
Where are we today? Have things improved? Absolutely, they have. Conditions are vastly improved; however, we feel significant changes in identifying the needs and improving the delivery of benefits are still required. Time is of the essence; changes must be implemented sooner rather than later as Father Time continues to take its toll.
There are some critical areas we feel need to be addressed. Veterans Affairs Canada must accept that what was considered a minor injury 60 years ago has, over the years, become a debilitating condition impacting on quality of life. Keep in mind that merchant navy personnel did not have the luxury of a complete medical exam that would have identified many conditions apparent when they left the service.
Second, there needs to be an improved identification system so that, when merchant seamen apply for aid, they will not be turned away as non-veterans. This type of treatment is unacceptable. They must be awarded the respect they deserve.
The burden of proof of injuries should not rest with the client. Rather, due to the lack of records kept by ships' officers, it should be the duty of Veterans Affairs Canada to accept the claim as presented or disprove it factually. Again, I refer to the fact that no medical examinations were recorded or performed.
I am sure many other areas may appear during your questions.
The Chair: While we are waiting to build a list of questioners, perhaps I could ask a couple. How many people are in your association?
Mr. Ferguson: At present, I am also the editor of our newsletter, the Red Duster. We just sent it to the printer and are ordering 775 copies for this issue. Not all copies go to members. We have friends of the association. We are probably looking at 700 full-time members.
The Chair: Last week we had before us Stéphane Ouellette with the Merchant Navy Commemorative Theme Project. Colonel Gardam was here as an adviser. Is there any formal or informal relationship between you and that group?
Mr. Ferguson: Mr. Ouellette and I have an informal relationship. Two years ago, we had a memorial celebration here and he organized and ran it. He did an excellent job. He is a good public relations person in our name. He has no formal authority to speak for the merchant navy. However, he keeps in touch with us regardless of what he does.
I knew he was coming. I was a little curious as to why he would be here when we were supposed to be talking about pensions but he clarified that with me.
Senator Banks: You said that members of the veterans of the merchant navy are turned away because they are not veterans. I may not be well informed but I thought that issue had been solved and taken care of.
Mr. Ferguson: It has been solved, senator. Our problem is not the fact that we are not recognized as veterans. The problem is that we have no formal piece of paper — an ID card — with our pictures on it that says we are veterans.
A particular case arose recently in Quebec. In Quebec, when applying for aid of any type, they go through the Centre local de services communautaires, CLSC. These people said, "You are not a veteran." They would normally refer this to Veterans Affairs Canada. He said, "I am a merchant navy veteran." They told him to show them proof. He had nothing.
When we were given medals, we got a piece of paper that said we were authorized to wear that medal. However, it does not have your picture on it.
Senator Banks: Was the case in Quebec resolved and, if so, how?
Mr. Ferguson: It was resolved.
Jean-Luc Dutil, Executive Vice-President, Canadian Merchant Navy Veterans Association Inc.: We spoke with personnel at Veterans Affairs Canada and they recognize that merchant navy veterans are bona fide veterans. The individual from Veterans Affairs Canada went into the hospital as a matter of fact. Once you are in the system, it is great; we have been well looked after.
I know that particular case well. The family is pleased with the services. However, it is the receipt that is at issue. Let us face it — we are in a different situation from average people. By that I mean that some young men, not fit to go into the army, the air force or the navy due to eyesight or flat feet or whatever, went into the merchant navy.
They were young. I was one of them. After leaving the merchant navy, some did not have the opportunity to go back to school to study and do things like that. If I may say, they have limited abilities to negotiate this difficult situation. They just give up.
That is why we think we need some kind of identification. I was chatting with Mr. Ferguson this morning. I said it could be simple. The minister and deputy minister could authorize the manager of a branch to receive my passport or a document with my picture on it, put his stamp on it certifying that Jean-Luc Dutil is a recognized veteran of World War II and sign it. That is it. Then you go to veterans affairs and say, "Look, I am a bona fide veteran. I have been approved."
These are little things. However, let us face it — these people today are in need. I am a young one at 81. The average age is 85 or 86, in that neighbourhood. That is what we are trying to explain to you on behalf of the people that we represent.
Senator Banks: You are looking for a specific form of portable identification that would get you through the gate in the first instance.
Mr. Ferguson: Right. Preferably picture ID, similar to what army and navy people have today.
Senator Day: Do all the other veterans have that?
Mr. Ferguson: Yes. At breakfast this morning, there were two young armed service fellows there and I asked them the question. They both showed me picture ID. When they retire, as these gentlemen behind you explained, they will have the same card with "retired" across it. We do not have that.
Senator Dallaire: The problem is that ID card does not have your date of birth on it. You cannot use it even to get on a plane because you need that information. It is not a complete card in regard to legal authority.
Do you not have access to other cards like the veterans' medical card?
Mr. Ferguson: I have one because I get a pension. If you do not get a pension, you do not get a K card.
Senator Dallaire: However, you are with the merchant navy.
Mr. Ferguson: I am recognized as a World War II veteran with a disability; therefore, I have a K card.
Senator Dallaire: That will get you in the door in the Province of Quebec.
Mr. Ferguson: It may. I cannot speak to that because I have never been involved.
Senator Dallaire: Once you have a dossier with Veterans Affairs Canada, you would have no other identification — is that the case?
Mr. Ferguson: That is right. You have your own passport but nothing that says you are a veteran.
Mr. Dutil: I will add to this. On October 24, 1945, I was given this medal and with it came this identification card. However, my picture is not on it. This is where we experience some difficulty.
[Translation]
Senator Dallaire: Who gave it to you?
Mr. Dutil: The Department of Transport, in 1945.
Senator Day: So it is not the armed forces.
[English]
Mr. Dutil: This is the difference between the Armed Forces and the merchant navy. The merchant navy were more or less like entrepreneurs. We were on board the ship, we got paid.
I was going to qualify to be an engineer. I had to go to school and learn. I got off the ship with no pay, at my expense, to write my papers. In the army, your records are set and they are kept. That is one of the handicaps we have. Do you understand?
Senator Dallaire: Do you mean your records are kept in the company, but nowhere else?
Mr. Dutil: The only record kept was in P.E.I. When you sign on board a ship, you sign the articles on board and off. In the meantime, there is nothing that covers you. During the war, a formula was copied from the British. You had to sign some kind of agreement, but 35 per cent to 40 per cent of the people — I am one of them — went with a large steam ship. We were in the British Isles when the Duke of Windsor was through there. We were servicing but were not part of the "manning pool." Overall, we were completely independent from the federal government. However, based on what we read, we were recognized as the fourth arm of the army.
Senator Dallaire: You were. Your ships were targets in the war just the same.
Mr. Dutil: However, there was a cabinet meeting in 1945 where the Minister of Transport asked that the benefit given to the Armed Forces not be applied or given to the merchant seamen because they were to man the ships to carry on helping Europe to rebuild. That lasted until 1949. The first victim of the war was on September 3, 1939 and we signed off the merchant ship in 1949. We served for years, carrying food, bauxite for aluminum companies to build air planes and other things, and fuel.
Two years ago, I was speaking at a function in France to a group of young people. I asked them to imagine how they would feel if they saw a bird covered with oil coming ashore. I suggested they would not feel good about that and, as a matter of fact, it would hurt a little. I asked them to imagine people a little older than themselves on board a tanker loaded with fuel and it being torpedoed. Where do they go? They go right to the bottom of the sea. There is no cemetery; there is nothing. They are forgotten. That is what being a merchant seaman is all about.
Senator Banks: If the government decided to issue a picture/birthdate ID, is there a place where the government could go to get a clear answer on exactly who is qualified to receive this?
Mr. Ferguson: They have that record today. Merchant navy records were kept by the Department of Transport but have since been transferred to veterans affairs. In 2000, they issued the special benefit of $5,000 to $20,000. All those who received it are qualified as merchant navy veterans. They have the record of all those people. Unfortunately, many of them are no longer with us.
Senator Banks: Issuing the card should be a piece of cake.
Mr. Ferguson: The problem is that some of the older fellows do not know how to go about getting their picture taken. Many times their wives are taking care of them. We have the veterans independence program, VIP, which seeks to keep veterans in their homes as long as possible. It is cheaper for the government and better for the veterans.
If you are not a member of the veterans independence program, as I am not currently, when you depart your wife will no longer have any access to assistance to get the lawn cut, the gutters cleaned or the windows washed. This puts great mental strain on some of our older fellows.
The Chair: Mr. Ferguson, are you not a beneficiary of this program because you do not need it, or do not qualify for it?
Mr. Ferguson: I do not qualify at the moment because I have a pending case for a back injury. If the government decides that I did hurt myself on a ship, they will give me a pension. It is not the pension I am after; it is the VIP so that when I go my wife can call someone to clean the windows for her.
The Chair: There is no argument about your status as a veteran, right?
Mr. Ferguson: Not at all.
The Chair: As a veteran, why are you not able to have someone cut the lawn and shovel the snow?
Mr. Ferguson: Because the pensionable injury that I have does not stop me from cutting the grass.
The Chair: Must you have an injury?
Senator Day: You have to be on pension to get VIP.
The Chair: You cannot just be old and frail?
Mr. Ferguson: No.
Senator Day: That is part of our problem.
Mr. Ferguson: That is one of the things they are working on with the faint-hope clause, I think they are calling it. We hope that will work.
A tank broke loose on a ship in a bad storm and I hurt myself trying to retrieve the cables. I have had this back injury since 1945. I am 81 and now my wife will not allow me on the roof. If I did go up, I would fall off. I need help to do those kinds of things.
How long will our older pensioners be with us — five years, two years, ten years? Give them the VIP. If a little pension goes along with it, give them that also. Take that mental strain off them. Give them the ability to live their lives in the dignity they deserve, for God's sake. These were not men who went to war; these were boys who did not know what they were getting into. We did not have television; we hardly had radio. We wanted to know what was going on in the war so we went to the theatre and saw the Movietone News. Kids today at 17 or 18 are pretty bright. When I was 17, I was stupid and am not much brighter now.
We have to let these people have benefits.
Senator Dallaire: You say your membership is slightly over 700 today. We could ask veterans affairs how many veterans of the merchant navy are still alive today?
Mr. Ferguson: Yes, sir.
Senator Dallaire: They have all the files.
Mr. Ferguson: Without a doubt.
Senator Dallaire: Since 2000, are the veterans who have a file being treated in the same way as army, navy and air force veterans?
Mr. Ferguson: Yes.
Senator Dallaire: Your argument for VIP, which I believe is the philosophy behind the faint-hope clause, is that simply due to the aging process we should give VIP, carte blanche, to anyone who has achieved the age of 75, or 80, whether or not they were injured. In order to allow them to maintain their independence rather than being moved into a public institution, we should simply give them VIP, which would alleviate stress on the spouses as well.
Mr. Ferguson: Those who are receiving VIP today are getting it because they qualified as a pensioner.
Senator Dallaire: Because they had an injury.
Mr. Ferguson: If they agree that my injury exists, they will give me a pension. We are not asking for that pension for the VIP people. I want to make that clear. We are not asking the government to give a pension to everyone aged 75 or 80 who needs VIP. We simply want them to be able to qualify for VIP in order to get reimbursed for this work done around their homes. They need not necessarily receive a monthly stipend.
Mr. Dutil: I would suggest that, when personnel of veterans affairs are in doubt, perhaps due to a question of honesty, we have an advisory committee of merchant seamen veterans to assist them. We did this freely in P.E.I. for cases that were difficult to assess when the compensation project was on.
Mr. Ferguson: There is a difficulty there. For example, on May 5 or 6 I will appear before a board that will decide whether my back injury is as a result of my service. They will provide me with an advocate who will speak on my behalf. We are suggesting that that type of process be eliminated. They should accept the word of the veteran and disprove it, if they can. If the person is selling them a bill of goods, let veterans affairs disprove the claim rather than force an individual over 80 years of age to remember what happened 60 or 70 years ago.
The Chair: You would agree that a veteran such as yourself should have to have his or her doctor say, "Yes, he has a bad back."
Mr. Ferguson: Of course. For example, in my case, my doctor has written to them saying he does not know whether or not I injured myself but that the injury was there; it was either caused by, or aggravated by, my service. It is an old injury, in other words. It is not me personally, but all those fellows out there need to know they will not get turned down; they will be heard. If there is reason for them to get support, they will get it.
The Chair: Another question occurs to me. Does the Royal Canadian Legion champion your cause at all in the way they champion causes of the Canadian Forces?
Mr. Ferguson: Today, they do. They did not in the past.
The Chair: You know how things work in a bureaucratic operation. Does anyone have this difficulty of knowing the difference between the VIP and the pension?
Senator Banks: No. The general said that the VIP should be activated by virtue of age alone.
The Chair: That is fair enough but Mr. Ferguson is not asking for the VIP if we get a pension, or vice versa.
Mr. Ferguson: We are saying they can have the VIP but they do not necessarily have to receive a monthly stipend.
The Chair: Is that in order to qualify?
Mr. Ferguson: Yes.
Senator Dallaire: The VIP kicks in by virtue of your state of injury. It is a series of benefits to assist you.
The Chair: I thought he was saying he did not want the compensation for the injury as well as the VIP.
Senator Dallaire: I do not remember in our files whether or not we have ever taken on Veterans Affairs Canada in regard to the VIP and age. It has always been linked with the injury and file, but not by the fact that the veterans have reached a certain age.
I spoke at a conference regarding the impact of post-traumatic stress on people as they age. The scientific data proves that the impact gets worse with age rather than better with time because of the ability to master it. As you get older, in fact it worsens. All the plumbing of the body is affected by age.
It would be an interesting concept to take the scientific data on gerontology that people become less independent by a certain average and that all veterans then get it. I have never heard that before.
Mr. Ferguson: The gerontology study, which was done by Veterans Affairs Canada, goes into high blood pressure, heart attacks and different types of diseases that are related in the same matter.
The Chair: As you say, if you are 88 or 80 years old, you do not have to have a back injury to not be able to shovel snow. Some people can but many cannot. The older you get, the more difficult it becomes.
Senator Dallaire: This is quite an interesting angle. If it has been studied before, I do not remember it.
The Chair: It has been studied only peripherally.
Mr. Dutil: As we know, the costs of medication are increasing rapidly. Many of our people have difficulty making ends meet. What will they do eventually? Could there be an arrangement with veterans affairs to assist a veteran in need of costly medication for a discount of maybe 25 per cent at the end of the month or the quarter so that, if one spends $600 in that quarter, there would be compensation for half or whatever?
Senator Dallaire: I think I remember a clause in the VIP about medication. It might be linked to the injury but not necessarily. That is obviously an angle. There is enough scientific data to prove that people in certain age groups move into a certain bracket where they need medication, whether we can specify it or not.
Mr. Ferguson: In Canada, medication and health are the responsibility of the provinces, and you start pulling from both ways.
Senator Dallaire: Veterans affairs has sorted that out.
Mr. Dutil: If you have the Blue Cross card, you can go to the dentist. I do not know if you are aware but dentists are expensive and that is with after-tax money. I have three teeth to be removed for $900.
Senator Banks: Looking down the road at a potential response and the consequences, if we were to suggest that the VIP be put in place in direct consideration of the fact that these are Second World War veterans, and perhaps widening that as the general was referring to, one of the wrinkles we will hit is: If I am entitled to a pension, having been a veteran at 65, I will nonetheless trigger the VIP by virtue of the fact that I have a pension.
However, if I am not entitled to a pension because I did not suffer an injury or whatever during the course of my service, when I hit 80, notwithstanding that I do not get a pension, I would receive VIP. Is that right?
If that is so, and if it is being given by virtue of the fact that when I hit 80 years of age, which is not far away, I will be more frail than I am now, then why would that concept be limited only to veterans? I am being the devil's advocate here.
The Chair: That is as opposed to the general citizenry?
Senator Banks: Yes.
Senator Day: No, that is as opposed to army, navy and air force.
Senator Banks: That is as opposed to anyone in the general population.
The Chair: It has to be tied to the war. Otherwise, it would allegedly be too expensive.
Senator Dallaire: Looking at all the angles like that is fascinating. Holland has special pensions based on age, which is not just the old age pension but a whole program. I have an uncle who is 86 years of age. At different times in his life he has had different pension programs kick in. All I know is that we have the old age pension and that is it. We do not have anything that kicks in as aging continues.
Senator Banks: My only point is, if we were to propose it, you would have to circumscribe it carefully and say that is the reason this is being given to those folks. It is clear: They served in World War II. This is a consideration of that. If you are 80 years of age and did not serve in World War II, you do not get it.
Mr. Ferguson: We are saying that this benefit should be for what we call the traditional veterans, which includes the Korean War people. The New Veterans Charter excludes us old people but it does take care of the new people.
The Chair: General Hillier would not be eligible for it.
Mr. Ferguson: I enjoy General Hillier. I will not comment on that one.
Senator Day: Let me finish up on the VIP so I understand it. I think you hit it on the head. We would not be in a position to recommend VIP or any special VIP provisions solely for your association and your members. It would have to be tied in to the existing VIP to ensure you get it as well as them.
Mr. Ferguson: Absolutely.
Senator Day: You are not suggesting that the merchant navy veterans should have a special VIP?
Mr. Ferguson: No.
Senator Day: That is important. We have been studying the issue of VIPs for traditional veterans generally for some time. We have had two or three series of hearings on that issue and I know the Legion has brought forward these points.
One of the points bothering me is that I know what is happening out there in the field. When someone reaches the age of 80 and needs help, is not on a disability pension, does not hear well, and people are helping them go to the Royal Canadian Legion, the Legion people take them to veterans affairs who give them a pension so they can get on VIP, and all they wanted was to get on VIP. They are starting to get a pension for a hearing disability in order to get on VIP.
You are absolutely right that you need to be on disability, and that is costing veterans affairs more. If they looked at this holistically they would realize that, of the people they are approving for disabilities, most of them have hearing disabilities.
Mr. Ferguson: I understand that hearing disabilities are almost off the map.
The Chair: Does it not have to be tied to service during World War II?
Senator Day: They have the benefit of the doubt. They served as artillery people and they cannot hear now.
Mr. Ferguson: That is what happened to me. They asked me why and I said that I was part of the gun crew and, in those days, we had no hearing protection. We had a four-inch gun at the aft. We had DEMS gunners, navy guys who would defend our merchant ships. They would say: On your toes and, when the gun goes off, you scream.
That is what we did to take pressure off our eardrums. That was our hearing protection.
Senator Dallaire: Were all those naval gunners on your ships recognized as veterans right from the start?
Mr. Ferguson: Absolutely.
Mr. Dutil: They were all navy. They were employees of the federal government, whereas we were not. That is the difference.
Senator Day: I will ask a couple more questions so that we have a clear understanding. We heard last week from Mr. Ouellette that there are two merchant navy associations. Tell us about the other one and the relationship you have with them.
Mr. Ferguson: The Canadian Merchant Navy Association started 25 years ago. At that time, half a dozen fellows got together and wanted to get old friends together every once in a while to talk about old times. Gradually, this grew and grew. We ended up with a couple thousand members.
Then came the usual infighting. They deposed the then-sitting president because there was a bit of finagling going on, financial and so on. This was taken to the Supreme Court of British Columbia. The judge requested that we have a mail-in referendum. Each opposite group would appoint delegates and the delegates would receive their votes. The winners of these votes would get together and they would be the official recognized association for merchant seamen in Canada.
The group that won, the Canadian Merchant Navy Veterans Association, said that they would now govern. The other group, the deposed group if you will, decided that they did not agree with the judge or the results so they formed their own organization. They called themselves the Canadian Merchant Mariner Veterans Association, MM versus MN, which confused some fellows who thought they were joining one group and ended up in the other.
We complained bitterly about that. The government finally ordered a change and they became the League of Merchant Mariner Veterans of Canada; Leslie Kemp is their president.
We get along. They do not have nearly as many members as we do. We are unable to find out how many because they do not seem to know themselves exactly the number of members they have. Mr. Kemp and I deal with each other when we have something of mutual benefit. We tried to get an identification card three or four years ago. At the time, the then-deputy minister said nobody else had that type of identification and, therefore, it was not right to issue one to the merchant navy.
That was Jack Stagg at the time. He and I spoke about it. I was not aware, nor do I think he was, or maybe at that time they did not have an identification card for the services. Senator Dallaire may know more about that than I. We did not have an identification card at that time, and we did not get one. The two associations worked together.
Senator Day: That explanation is helpful. May I call the other group "the league"?
Mr. Ferguson: That is what they call themselves, yes.
Senator Day: Is the league dealing with veterans affairs and making requests and demands of the department as you are?
Mr. Ferguson: Yes.
Mr. Dutil: We worked together when we negotiated the compensation package.
Senator Day: You are being consulted, they are being consulted, and they may put forward requests to veterans affairs that you are not aware of?
Mr. Ferguson: They could. That is possible. They do not keep us apprised of everything. I called and spoke with my wife last night, and Mr. Kemp had called.
Senator Day: I have looked at your letter to Suzanne Tining, the new deputy minister, Mr. Stagg's successor. Mr. Stagg was a great friend of this committee and of veterans generally.
Was the Canadian volunteer service medal, CVSM, given to everyone who served in the Second World War?
Mr. Ferguson: That is a sore point with me. The Canadian volunteer service medal was struck in 1943. It is a long story. I understand Legion Magazine put out something about it.
Under the CVSM, there is an army, navy and air force image; an army, navy, air force female image; and in the background, a nursing sister. They are all on the medal. That medal was issued for them. There has never been a medal issued for us. We were not entitled to that medal until I got mine in 1994. I arrived home one day and there was a medal in the mail with a card saying I was entitled to wear that medal.
Senator Day: That was the beginning of the recognition of the merchant navy.
Mr. Ferguson: That is about it. Subsequently, we went back to veterans affairs, the chancellery, and asked for a merchant navy medal. We were turned down.
When I went to Dieppe last year, I noticed the Dieppe veterans have a bar on the CVSM that says "Dieppe" and a Thompson submachine gun. I wondered why we could not have something like that for the merchant navy. I spoke with the other group. They are supporting us on this.
We wrote and asked Ms. Tining if she could give us some help because I did not know how to go about requesting a bar for our merchant navy medal that would identify the wearer as a merchant seaman. She asked Terry Tobin to give me a hand. I wrote a letter and sent it to him. Mr. Tobin vetted it and got back to me. That letter to the Governor General is a result of that but we are still waiting for an answer.
Senator Dallaire: Would you keep us informed?
Mr. Ferguson: I will do that. I brought it with me today specifically to enlist your support in moving this forward to give these fellows a bar.
Senator Day: Would it be helpful if we gave our support of the concept before the Governor General has spoken to the matter or should we wait to see what happens?
Mr. Ferguson: Protocol would suggest that we wait to see what happens.
Senator Day: That would be my inclination. Please keep us informed and we will note all of the veteran groups that have received the bar, such as those at Dieppe and Hong Kong.
Mr. Ferguson: They are the only two. I understand the air force Bomber Command wants compensation. You are probably aware of that.
Senator Day: We are aware of that.
Mr. Ferguson: They have been in touch with me. When Dieppe veterans were issued the bar, they were told that was the last time the procedure would be allowed.
The Chair: I will send you a copy of my speech yesterday in the Senate on that subject. I would appreciate that. The problem is that Bomber Command was a British unit so it is up to the British government to make a determination.
Senator Joyal suggested, if that is difficult, that we should create a national monument to the credible sacrifices of Bomber Command. Perhaps the same would apply in your case. However, in your case, the Canadian government could do something.
Mr. Ferguson: Absolutely.
The Chair: You were not serving under another flag.
Senator Dallaire: If I may, on your request for recognition, do you go through veterans affairs or go directly to the Governor General?
Mr. Ferguson: In the past, we had gone directly to the former Governor General, and we went down in flames. We thought that this time we would work a little differently. We went looking for help. Ms. Tining recommended that Mr. Tobin would be a good source and he was. Then we went directly to the Governor General, but we had the background information first.
Senator Dallaire: At national defence, the directorate of history and heritage is responsible for commemorations. They propose medals, other awards and so on. Perhaps you should lobby them because the medal is essentially a service medal and you were service members. If you want to amend it by putting a bar on it, perhaps it would be good politics to have officials from that branch endorsing it because it makes sense. They are not on the actual medal like all of us are. Serge Bernier is the director.
Senator Day: Is Captain Gauthier involved with that?
Senator Dallaire: Mr. Bernier works for the assistant deputy minister, the PCM and the vice chief. I would recommend speaking to him. In reality, you will be fiddling with their medal. Getting them to agree would be a positive move.
Senator Day: The chancery would go to them in any event so if you have them ready to agree, then you are on your way.
The Chair: You might consider going to the new veterans ombudsman. He might not have too many files on his desk yet.
Mr. Ferguson: We met him in early March during one of your snowstorms.
Senator Day: Talking about Bomber Command, this committee was active in helping to bring about a satisfactory resolution concerning the war museum. This committee has been supportive of your cause and that of the merchant navy. We sponsored the bill that ultimately created September 3 as navy day. In fact, for a couple of years, we hosted a reception after the ceremony at the war memorial. We are here to be supportive in any way that we can.
Mr. Ferguson: I appreciate that very much.
Senator Day: Would you tell me what has been done for merchant seamen from other countries? Has there been proper and full recognition of their contribution, for example, in England?
Mr. Ferguson: In the U.K., they were recognized as veterans immediately following the war. They did have, and are still having, difficulties. They receive pensions as we do but I understand their pensions are not indexed, which is a sore point. There is an active committee in Canada of ex-pat Brits trying to do something about it.
They were upset when the compensation package was given to Canadian merchant seamen because they felt they should have received one too. The fact that Newfoundland was included in the compensation package, before Newfoundland had joined Confederation, upset them further. However, it made sense.
The Chair: Do they think that Canada or the U.K. should have paid for Newfoundlanders?
Mr. Ferguson: They do not think that Newfoundlanders should have received it at all.
Senator Day: Are merchant veterans receiving full recognition as war veterans in other countries?
Mr. Ferguson: To my knowledge, yes, but I cannot speak for certain to that.
Senator Day: What is the definition of "merchant veteran" to fit into your organization or the league? Do they have to have worked on a merchant ship registered in Canada or could it have been registered in the U.S. and sailing from Canada?
Mr. Dutil: In dangerous water.
Mr. Ferguson: You were a registered Canadian merchant seaman. Mr. Dutil mentioned the manning pools. Whether you belonged to a manning pool, you were part of the Canadian merchant navy scene. You could not leave the ship or the service unless you had permission from the Canadian government. Cliff Chadderton put out a tape on it called Sail Or Jail. I remember one particular trip of mine. When I came home, I got into the sauce and did not show up to the manning pool at Place Viger in old Montreal when I was supposed to. When I arrived home, my father said, "What the hell have you been up to? The RCMP were here looking for you." They did not waste any time because you were supposed to be there in time. I was scheduled to go on a particular ship to England and I did not show up so they sent someone looking for me. I hustled right down to the ship.
Senator Day: Explain a little more. How did one become a member of the manning pool? If you were not part of the merchant navy manning pool, would they ask why you were not in the army, navy or air force?
Mr. Ferguson: No.
Senator Day: Would they ask why you were not back on the farm? How did you get into this pool?
Mr. Ferguson: If you were on a Canadian-registered ship, then the government was informed of the names of the crew members. Your name was part of the record. In my case, I was on an oil tanker out of Portland, Maine. I did not like sailing on the tanker. Onboard, I was a peggy — someone who carried the food around. Peggies were guys who were injured and had lost a leg — hence, peg leg and the term "peggies." The only thing they were good for was carrying food. When we arrived back in Montreal, I went to the manning pool. I was asked about my experience and said that I was an ordinary seaman. He said, okay, and I was signed up and off to sea again.
Senator Day: Who were you registered with?
Mr. Ferguson: At first I was with a shipping company out of Montreal.
Senator Day: Then you wanted to get off that ship so you went to the manning pool. Is that like going to an unemployment insurance office?
Mr. Ferguson: It was the merchant navy hiring hall.
Senator Day: Did the government have the list of all those people as well?
Mr. Ferguson: Yes. The whole thing was controlled by the government. Whether or not you were registered in the manning pool, you were a matter of record.
Mr. Dutil: May I add that there was a Crown corporation called the Park Steamship Company whose head office was located in Montreal. They were ships of the Canadian government that were sold after the war. We were serving on Canadian ships.
Senator Dallaire: The war starts and you are in the merchant navy. The Canadian government has your name and it wants you to remain in the merchant navy because we need those ships to provide supplies, et cetera. You automatically became a member of the merchant navy, were committed to the war effort, and were not allowed to leave the merchant navy. Did you have the right to volunteer or were you drafted?
Mr. Ferguson: We were volunteers.
Senator Dallaire: You were in the merchant navy. You volunteered to continue to serve in the merchant navy that was committed to the war effort. However, once you volunteered, you were in for it.
If you volunteered for the merchant navy in 1943, for example, you joined this pool and once you were on that list you were controlled throughout. You were in a service that the government controlled.
Mr. Ferguson: That is right.
Senator Dallaire: Today, the Canadian merchant navy or merchant marine or —
Mr. Ferguson: The merchant marine was the Americans.
Senator Dallaire: What links do you have with the merchant navy today?
As an example, if you are an army veteran from a particular regiment, you would still have links with the regiment today.
Are there any links between your association of the war-time merchant navy people and today's association of the merchant navy?
Mr. Ferguson: There is none.
Senator Dallaire: There is none?
Mr. Ferguson: No. As Mr. Dutil pointed out, the Canadian merchant navy ceased to exist in 1949 because there were no more ships. They were all sold.
Senator Dallaire: Today, we have Canadians on merchant ships.
Mr. Ferguson: We do?
Mr. Dutil: Yes.
Senator Dallaire: Not many. Is there an association of —
Senator Day: Most of the Canadian ships are offshore.
Mr. Ferguson: Most of them are operated by other nationalities.
Senator Dallaire: Do we not have an association of people who work on merchant ships wherever in the world, but who are Canadian? Have they never coalesced into an association?
Mr. Ferguson: No. When you go to a meeting with Pat Strogan, the veterans ombudsman, there will be all kinds of people there. They all know each other. I went to one of these meetings and I spoke to the president of the navy league, but I did not know anyone else because we do not have that link.
Senator Dallaire: The Canadian civilian merchant world, whatever you call it, never created an entity that brought in the war-time veterans who served?
Mr. Ferguson: There was only what we attempted to start 25 years ago when the initial thought was to get together and renew old friendships.
Senator Dallaire: Not with the current group, however?
Mr. Ferguson: There is no new group. They disappeared in 1949.
The Chair: There are very few Canadians on ships.
Senator Day: What happened in 1949?
Mr. Ferguson: They sold the ships. The Canadian government decided they could not afford to run the merchant navy ships because it was costing too much for crews, et cetera. They had Filipinos, Chinese and Koreans who would work for a tenth of the money the Canadian boys wanted. It was not a paying proposition. Therefore, they sold the ships. The majority went to Greek interests as a matter of fact. Aristotle Onassis was one who bought several of them.
Senator Day: Were these ships owned by the government and then leased to various companies?
Mr. Ferguson: Yes, they were owned by the Park Steamship Company.
Senator Day: That was a Canadian Crown corporation?
Mr. Ferguson: That is right.
Mr. Dutil: In 1949, Prime Minister Louis St. Laurent cancelled further financial subsidies and said they had concluded that they were not justified from an economic viewpoint to maintain the Canadian flag on the merchant navy by artificial means. It was not the intention of the government to maintain an industry at the expense of the taxpayer.
The Chair: It was the naval equivalent of the Avro Arrow.
Senator Day: That sounds to me like they were owned privately but subsidized by the federal government to keep them registered here in Canada.
Mr. Dutil: That is what the ship owners were complaining about.
The Chair: I would like to give the final word to our witnesses. Is there anything you would like to add?
How many people do you think, for whatever reason, are not recognized and registered as veterans who served in the merchant navy?
Mr. Ferguson: In 2008, there would be a maximum of 1,200.
The Chair: Who are not registered? You are registered.
Mr. Ferguson: No, I would say there are probably 50 or 100 not registered across the country. The government knows where all these people are.
The Chair: Do they?
Mr. Ferguson: Yes. If they qualified for the special benefit in 2000, they had to register with the government. The government vetted them to see that they were legitimate. Therefore, they know who they are.
The Chair: As I understood it, these were people who were too old, too afraid or whatever, to go and say I served in the merchant navy.
Mr. Ferguson: What has happened with those you refer to is they have gone in with a sore finger seeking compensation and the government responded to say that did not happen when you were sailing. They did not want to fight and backed off.
Senator Dallaire: How many received compensation in 2000?
Mr. Ferguson: I think it was close to 1,000 or 1,200.
Senator Dallaire: Those are the official, recognized people. You have about 750 left?
Mr. Ferguson: The other group has a couple hundred also.
Mr. Dutil: Those were also compensated.
Mr. Ferguson: It was in the range of $94 million that was paid out.
Senator Day: As you pointed out, the widows of deceased merchant navy veterans were compensated.
The Chair: Mr. Ferguson and Mr. Dutil, I am sorry to bring this interesting discussion to an end. It has been enlightening for everyone in the room. We appreciate your insights and help. We have taken careful note and will be of whatever assistance we can to you.
Senator Day is too modest to have mentioned that the success this committee achieved with the Bomber Command was under his chairmanship. However, we hope we can be helpful to you as in the past in similar matters. We will do our best and thank you for helping us. The clerk has your address. We can get in touch with you for any further information.
Mr. Dutil: It has been a great experience. Thank you for listening to us.
The Chair: I will ask if you will excuse us because we have to get on with some administrative business. Thank you.
Honourable senators, you have before you a draft budget. It has not been approved by the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence. It has to be but we have to approve it first.
We have provision in here for someone from White River Junction to come and speak to us if we find that appropriate. We have a visit to Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue and Sunnybrook Hospital.
As I understand it, if we decide we want to go to Colonel Belcher, we can do it at the same price. We are not necessarily tied to Sunnybrook.
Ms. Anwar: Not necessarily, but we would have to ask the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration for permission to change it.
The Chair: It is a total of $45,000, which is roughly the same as in the previous period. I do not think there are any items that are different than normal. The clerk informs me it is significantly less than last year. That should please the internal economy committee. I think it will cover our meetings here that are the vast majority of our work.
I invite comments from senators.
Senator Day: On the last page, there are items for "all other expenditures," "other" and "miscellaneous costs on travel." Having just gone through the experience yesterday, you will be asked about that. You should have a good answer for that one. I do not know what it might be.
Since there is one member here who is on that committee —
Senator Nancy Ruth: I am so looking forward to this afternoon.
It has to do with percentages of total budget and people using miscellaneous for slush funds.
The Chair: It is a small amount of miscellaneous.
Senator Banks: Given travel costs these days and the fluctuations, you have a contingency here indicated for that purpose. Do you believe that amount for travel contingency is in order?
The Chair: I think it is. Are there any other questions?
Senator Day: I have a question on "transportation and communications — courier charges" in the amount of $10,000. That seems a little high for courier charges.
The Chair: Is our distribution list the same as that for the national security and defence committee?
Senator Nancy Ruth: Is it the same as last year?
Ms. Anwar: Last year, it was for four months. Therefore, we asked for half that amount. This is for a full fiscal year.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Was it used?
Ms. Anwar: No, it was not used in the short budget period from November to March.
Senator Day: This is for distribution if we have a report. How many reports would $10,000 move around?
Ms. Anwar: The distribution list for the National Security and Defence Committee is about 2,000.
Senator Day: Is this money that goes to the full committee?
Ms. Lemay: No.
Senator Day: This is for us?
Ms. Lemay: Yes.
Senator Day: How many reports could we distribute for $10,000?
Ms. Lemay: It would depend on the size of the report and how many different reports there are over the course of the year. Last session, I think you had three reports.
Senator Day: You are budgeting for three reports?
Ms. Lemay: I based it on that.
The Chair: I can envision two reports for sure.
Senator Banks: If you want a report to get to the media when it is tabled in the Senate, that is how much it costs. They have expressed that they are not interested in an electronic version.
Senator Day: They want the hard copies.
The Chair: Or a mailed copy.
Senator Day: I am sure many of us in the committee do our own distribution to our group of friends as well. That is not included in this amount. There is a lot of money going into distribution of reports that the Internal Economy Committee should be aware of.
Senator Banks: Yes. If we produce a report, what use is it if we do not distribute it?
Senator Day: That is our communications tool.
Senator Nancy Ruth: It is one part of the communications tool.
The Chair: There are press conferences and the like.
Senator Nancy Ruth: If it is the end of a study, it is not good enough. You have to build on it.
Senator Day: We need extra support in our offices to handle it.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Put it in the range of $20,000 to $30,000. We like seeing that figure. We are familiar with it.
Senator Banks: I have one more question. Is there any expense that would be provided specifically to the committee when we travel to Washington, if that happens? There will be no additional expense for a bus for us to go to Walter Reed.
The Chair: What if we took a bus out to Walter Reed?
Ms. Anwar: We do not have that in this budget. That will have to come out of the National Security and Defence Committee budget.
Senator Banks: That is in May. If there were any expenses attributable specifically to this committee like a bus, it is not here.
The Chair: Unless you put it in miscellaneous.
Ms. Anwar: You would not be able to do that without the permission of the internal economy committee.
Senator Day: What if we decided to stay an extra day to do our committee visit? We would save the airline costs, but we would stay over an extra day.
The Chair: What rubric would you put it under if the clerk says I cannot add it as miscellaneous?
Ms. Anwar: It can be added as a separate item.
The Chair: I spoke to the chair of the larger committee who indicated that his preference was strongly to the effect that, if we wanted to go to Walter Reed, that it not be done this time but on our own. We would go down in the morning and back in the evening. However, that would be more expensive.
I have also been told by some people that there may not be a lot for us to learn there. I would like to hear from Mr. White River Junction and from the people we will be contacting in Canada about what they think before we decide for sure if we want to go to Walter Reed. What would be the suggestion, should we put in a Walter Reed visit?
Senator Banks: Let us not plan for it. If we decide to, we can go back to internal economy and ask for a supplement.
Senator Nancy Ruth: The budgets will go to the end of October. However, that is a guideline. You can come back in September and ask for more.
The Chair: Fine. That makes sense.
Senator Day: When was the trip we were planning?
The Chair: It was the one the senior committee is taking in May, the week after the long weekend.
Senator Nancy Ruth: You should do it before then.
Senator Day: I think visiting hospitals is an important part of our mandate.
Ms. Anwar: Senator Day, your office said you have to be back in Ottawa on May 22.
Senator Day: Never mind me. I am talking about the committee. I think it is an important aspect of the committee's work. I can always try to be there.
The Chair: I need a motion.
Senator Day: I think we should leave Walter Reed in the budget.
The Chair: Should we not wait until October?
Senator Day: I was trying to save money since we are going down now. We were planning to visit Walter Reed when we were down there and the senior committee does not want us to do it. Therefore, we are suggesting they go home and we will do it. What you need is an overnight stay.
Senator Nancy Ruth: You have four members of the senior committee here, Senator Meighen. I suggest you do it that way.
The Chair: If that is the will of the committee.
Senator Day: It is only an extra day. If we cannot put it together, then the money goes back.
Senator Nancy Ruth: Then you can apply again.
The Chair: Would someone be prepared to move the budget subject to that change?
Senator Nancy Ruth: I so move.
Senator Day: The chair also has the authority to make that one amendment and present it to the senior committee next Monday.
The Chair: Thank you. Is there anything further we need?
The motion has been made by Senator Nancy Ruth. All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Any opposed? I see none.
The committee adjourned.