Proceedings of the Standing Committee on
Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration
Issue 2 - Evidence for November 5, 2009
OTTAWA, Thursday, November 5, 2009
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration met this day at 8:32 a.m. to consider administrative matters; and in camera to consider other matters.
Senator George J. Furey (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good morning, colleagues. The first item on our agenda is an update on H1N1.
Linda Dodd, Director, Human Resources, Senate of Canada: Good morning. I only have a few comments to make on the H1N1 issue this morning.
I received clarification from the City of Ottawa on vaccinations for those who do not formally reside in Ottawa but who work in Ottawa. We will not have a problem in that regard. The same is true for university students who are not residents of Ottawa.
The city recognizes that there are exceptions and will be asking for a driver's licence and a provincial health card. However, although it is not a requirement, if an individual has documentation to demonstrate that they reside in Ottawa, such as a tax or hydro bill, that will be of added value when they present themselves at a clinic. That is progress and I am happy about that.
I have spoken with Foreign Affairs, where they are in a similar situation. We are briefing them on what we are doing at the Senate, which is very positive.
The situation appears to be the same in Gatineau, but that will be confirmed today. I am not concerned about that.
[Translation]
We have just one confirmed case of H1N1 flu in the Senate. This is very good news. The employee affected was not in the office on the weekend or on Monday, so we have no bugs in our midst. Our workplace is in good shape.
[English]
Third, a draft message on a process to record the absenteeism of senators' staff will be presented to the Clerk of the Senate for his review today in the steering committee. We have implemented this policy with the Senate administration and we need to do the same for senators' staff. We need accurate data so that I can regularly monitor the level of absenteeism at the Senate. The message should be forwarded to all senators in the next few days.
[Translation]
I have good news. Currently, the absentee rate in the Senate is within normal limits. We will continue to monitor the situation, but we are doing very well.
[English]
I have updates from the House of Commons and the Library of Parliament. Everything is status quo there as well. We were wondering at what time we should stop or reduce training sessions, "learn and lunch" sessions, et cetera. At this time there are no changes to our plans. Again, we are in regular contact with the House of Commons, the Library of Parliament and our partners in Ottawa.
Intrasen continues to be a very popular vehicle of communication. The last review of hits has demonstrated an ongoing use of IntraSen and the H1N1 site, especially the links for people to access information in their various provinces, et cetera. That is a very good vehicle of communication.
That is what I have to report today on H1N1.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Comeau: If I understand correctly, when and if the clinics are open to the general public, one would have to be a resident of Ottawa in order to participate.
Ms. Dodd: No. If you are not a resident of Ottawa you will still be able to go to the clinics and be vaccinated here in Ottawa. You will require your driver's licence and your health card. If you do reside in Ottawa, be it in a hotel, an apartment or a house, and have any documentation to demonstrate that you reside here for work, you will be vaccinated. The same is true for your staff who may be from out of province.
Senator Comeau: Providing I have some documentation to show that I have a residence here?
Ms. Dodd: They would appreciate that, but you will need your diver's licence and your provincial health card.
We are still waiting to see when the clinics for the general population will open. A date has yet to be established.
The Chair: Would a current Senate ID card be enough?
Ms. Dodd: I would think it would absolutely work. They are saying they will immunize those who live, work or attend school in Ottawa. I suspect that students will be using their student cards. Use your ID card, but to get the line-up moving quickly, they would appreciate it if you brought along other documentation as well.
Senator Prud'homme: Is there no way to have a clinic here on Parliament Hill?
Ms. Dodd: Not at this time.
Senator Prud'homme: What could we do to make it possible?
Ms. Dodd: We continue to speak with the city. This is a provincial matter. The House of Commons, the Library of Parliament and other workplaces are continuing the discussion. The best we can do is to keep the matter on the table as an agenda item with the city, but at this point there is no progress in that direction.
The Chair: Thank you very much Ms. Dodd.
The next item on our agenda is the adoption of the minutes of the proceedings of October 29.
Senator Comeau: I so move.
The Chair: All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Contra-minded?
Carried.
The third item is the sixteenth report of the Subcommittee on the Review of Committee Budgets and International Travel.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: Mr. Chair, Honourable Senators, you have before you your subcommittee's sixteenth report. Your subcommittee considered a request from the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology for a supplementary budget of $15,000 for its special study on cities.
The budget is to allow the committee to hire a graphic designer and to produce its report in a new format which the committee believes will bring positive attention to the report, the committee and the Senate.
The Senate Document Printing and Duplicating Policy stipulates that: Senate Printing Services may produce coloured committee reports with a maximum of two coloured pages, plus coloured covers and tape binding at no cost to the requesting committee. Requests for committee reports with more than two coloured pages must be processed through the Procurement and Contracting Services of the Senate. Costs for such will be charged to the requesting committee's budget.
[English]
The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology is expecting to table a report of some 300 pages. It wants to print an executive summary in colour, which would also include a CD with the full text of the report.
Senate committees are considered by many to be the jewel of the Senate, and committee reports make a major contribution to Canada's public policy debates. Many resources are invested in supporting the work of committees, and it is important that the reports are widely distributed and in a format that encourages people to read them. The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology is proposing a novel approach, and your subcommittee believes that it is a worthwhile pilot project.
[Translation]
Your subcommittee recommends that approval be granted for the supplementary budget and that the Chair of the committee, the Honourable Senator Eggleton, P.C., be asked to report back to the Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration regarding the results of the pilot project.
Therefore, your subcommittee recommends the release of the following supplementary amounts for fiscal year 2009- 2010: a total of $15,000.
Mr. Chair, I move adoption of this report, which, of course, is submitted by the subcommittee made up of Senators McDonald, Cordy and myself.
Senator Dawson: It is an excellent idea. I would just like to add that I hope that producing a DVD does not preclude the use of the website from which the report can be downloaded in colour, if an institution wants to use its own printer. In other words, if you decide to print 150 colour copies of the executive summary, the summary should still available on the Internet. And if an organization, be it a school or another not-for-profit group, wants to print the report in colour, it is able to do so.
In the past, we often saw committees travelling with photographers. The social affairs committee in particular produced a series of photographs showing housing problems and the like all over Canada. We cannot always print 5,000 copies of a report in colour. But if the photographs are available on the CD, I hope that you will still make it possible to find them on the committee's web site.
Senator Massicotte: I appreciate Senator Dawson's comments. I agree with the proposal. We must experiment with ways to make our reports more interesting and perhaps shorter. This one will be 200 or 300 pages long. Good luck reading that. But, if we say yes, and approve $16,000 to be spent on design, are we obligated to make sure that the price is competitive and commensurate with the services received?
Senator Robichaud: We are always obligated to seek out the best prices.
Senator Massicotte: Does our policy require three quotations for this service?
Senator Robichaud: We are trying a new experiment here and, of course, when the budget is approved, I take it for granted that the people on the committee will look for the best service. They asked for graphic design and printing. The compact disc is included in the printing.
I have an example here and, just to make sure that everyone understands, they are not going to do the whole report in colour. It is just that the summary will look a little more attractive and have the CD in the middle. The CD will contain the full report. But the committees directorate always prints a report anyway, except not in colour. That copy is always available. We are recommending it because we want to try it out; it is a pilot project. This does not change our current policy. Once we have evaluated the impact and the usefulness of having it in colour, we will come back to the committee to determine if it is a practice we would like to continue.
[English]
Senator Tkachuk: I am not sure how I feel about this expenditure. I know that it will have consequences, so I would like some time to think it through. I am not opposed to it, but I am not ready to support it on the basis of 15 to 20 reports per year. I do not know about other chairs, but I know a few chairs who would be on this like a fish to water. Putting out 10 or 15 reports amounts to an additional cost of $150,000 to $225,000.
I like the idea of thinking of something different and new for us to consider. I have always wondered why committees produce reports and print up 500 to 1,000 copies when they can be put on respective committee websites. Perhaps we could print an executive summary of a report and people could look it up, or we could make a CD to be mailed out. People could read reports on their computers.
My view is that we not decide today so that we can give the proposal some thought and return to it at the next meeting.
Senator Robichaud: When the subcommittee studied the matter, we were well aware that all committees produce reports, some only a few. We have deemed it to be a worthwhile exercise so that we can see how it will work and how it will provide people with a more attractive form of receiving reports.
The budget of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology for its report is $180,000. The subcommittee feels that $15,000 is not much money to publish and present a report in a more attractive way. I would encourage this committee to accept this proposal now because the committee is ready to put out its report.
The Chair: Senator Robichaud, for comparison purposes, if the committee were to proceed with its report in the usual way, what would it cost? Do you know that offhand?
Senator Robichaud: I do not know the cost offhand.
The Chair: It would be about $10,000, would it not?
Senator Robichaud: I hesitate to provide numbers because it depends on the number of pages and the number of copies. Perhaps Ms. Proulx could give us an idea of the cost.
The Chair: What is the actual cost of the pilot project? It would be the difference between the regular production cost and the new production cost.
Senator Robichaud: The exercise is for an executive summary only, not for the full report.
The Chair: We do executive summaries.
Senator Robichaud: Some committees do them and some do not.
The Chair: Do you have any idea, Ms. Lank, what the normal production costs would be compared to this proposal?
Heather Lank, Principal Clerk, Committees Directorate, Senate of Canada: Yes, senator. It is important to keep in mind that this new process would not replace completely the normal process because you would still need a number of hard copies to table in the chamber, to distribute to repository libraries and to give to people who ask for a hard copy. We were told that printing 1,000 copies in-house would cost $11,000. Of course, those calculations are based on salaries and other elements. That is the cost per unit based on the size of the report. I would not want to suggest that by doing this, those costs would be eliminated. That would not be the case. Likely, there would be a modest reduction in the number of actual reports printed, but that number is unknown at this time.
The Chair: For clarification, this pilot project would not cost $11,000 plus $4,000, bringing it to $15,000; it would be $11,000 plus $15,000.
Ms. Lank: It might be a little less than $11,000 because the hope would be that they would not need to print as large a run as they would normally. However, the actual reduction is hard to estimate because it would depend on demand and other issues.
Senator Cordy: Before I begin, I want you to know that I am a member of the subcommittee, but I am also a member of the Social Affairs Committee.
Members of the subcommittee studying cities, which is about to produce the report, had a long discussion. We also had a discussion at a meeting of the whole Social Affairs Committee, so this motion was passed unanimously by the subcommittee and by the whole committee.
One of the examples that Senator Robichaud held up is actually from the Government of Canada. Government departments are doing this type of thing already. When your office receives reports from various government departments, you will have noticed that we are getting a small copy of it and a CD. However, it is almost 2010 and the Senate is still producing mostly black and white publications, with a little bit of colour on the cover. The feeling amongst members of the Social Affairs Committee is that we would like to at least try it and see whether it makes a difference in terms of requests for our reports.
The current report is on poverty, so needless to say there will be no flashy cover. It would be ridiculous for us to do that, but we thought having a small executive summary on a CD was a good idea. The subcommittee thought it was a good idea, with the caveat that it be a pilot project so that the floodgates are not opened wide.
Senator Tkachuk did not mention any committee, but I think we all have an understanding of the committee to which he might be referring. It would be unfortunate if we were not to begin a pilot project because of one committee.
Keep in mind that this is a pilot project. The subcommittee report requests that the chair of the committee report back to the subcommittee and to the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration as to how this has worked out. I think that we should be allowed to proceed.
The Chair: How time sensitive is the need for approval? In other words, could we entertain Senator Tkachuk's suggestion of waiting another two weeks or does this need to be approved now?
Senator Robichaud: I would turn to Senator Cordy as to how ready they are to put it out.
Senator Cordy: The subcommittee has approved the draft. However, it has to go to the full committee that is currently working on Bill C-6, so it has been postponed.
In order for us to get the background work done — and there has been mention of costing it — it would be helpful if the clerk of the committee could do some of that work next week; not actually giving a contract, but at least getting prices so that when it goes back to the committee, she can provide us with the figures and we can get moving.
Senator Dawson: As Senator Tkachuk knows, this committee has a subcommittee on communications that has been in limbo for a little while. This issue is clearly one of the objectives of that committee. The fact is that if we are to spend $200,000 to produce a report, spending $12,000 to communicate more effectively with the Canadian public and make the report more attractive would be a minimal cost.
As to a conflict of interest, I was replacing Senator Cordy on the subcommittee when we debated this issue. As you know, we have committees that use the web as a communications tool by posting pictures. Because they are on the web, there is no extra cost. It is a very effective communications tool.
The reality is that this report will come out in 2010. If it is in paper form, it will be a better communications tool.
This is a pilot project. I totally agree that if this does not make the report more effective, let us not do it. However, if it will receive more coverage and be read by more people and expose a very serious issue, which is poverty, I think it will be worthwhile. The objective is not to be flashy; it is to have a better communications tool.
The report will come out eventually. However, if we delay it by two weeks, what will happen in that time period? The report will not cost $12,000 less. I think it should come out as quickly as possible because it is finished, and $12,000 is not such an extravagant amount for a communications pilot project.
Senator Tkachuk: I got the impression from Senator Cordy that the report is not finished, that it is still being worked on. The full committee is dealing with a bill, and they will not be sitting next week either.
I would like to avoid a vote on this matter. I do not want to be seen as being opposed to it, but I am not ready to say that I am in favour of it. I would like to think about it and discuss it with my colleagues. Perhaps we should give some thought as to how we might want to look at different ways of publishing reports.
As far as government reports and their DVDs and CDs are concerned, I do not know about the rest of you, but I pay no more attention to those than I did to the old reports. If I am not interested in them, the CDs all go in the wastebasket. If I am interested in a report, I read it, whether it comes with a DVD or not. However, that is only me.
I do not know if there is any evidence or if any studies have been done to determine whether our reports are read, whether people use them as a reference tool or whatever. I do not think we have conducted any surveys or studies. We could be blowing in the wind for all I know.
Senator Munson: I agree with you in that regard.
For the record, I sit on the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology. I was part of the Subcommittee on Cities for a long time, and I support this report.
The Chair: Senator Cordy, to back up to Senator Tkachuk's concern, would it be critical if we delayed adopting the sixteenth report of the subcommittee until our next meeting?
Senator Cordy: It would certainly be preferable to make a decision today. Is it critical?
Senator Comeau: The fact that two members who sit on the committee are making a pitch for this is somewhat bothersome to me. I feel uncomfortable that I am hearing the pitch from the members on the committee. In most other organizations, you would recuse yourself if you were in a conflict of interest situation; it would be left up to us, the board, to consider the request.
Senator Tkachuk has asked for a bit of time to reflect, which is absolutely reasonable. Next week while we are all away, as far as I am aware nothing stops the clerk from obtaining quotes in an effort to identify a graphic designer who would be hired. However, this would give us time to reflect on whether this is the way to go. Pilot project or no pilot project, we do not have a communications committee anymore, but we probably should.
Senator Tkachuk: Actually, we do.
Senator Comeau: We do have one?
In any case, I am asking that we honour Senator Tkachuk's request to give us a little bit of time to consider.
The Chair: On the point about conflict of interest, I do not see any conflict here. None of these senators has any personal gain in promoting this. We all promote our own issues with respect to committees, but this one is not for any personal gain.
Senator Comeau: If the chair has interpreted that it is for personal gain and if that is the impression I have given, I completely withdraw it. I think I said that they are pushing for their committee, but they are not in conflict.
The Chair: That is not a conflict.
Senator Hubley: I am not associated with the committee, just so everyone knows.
I want to go back to the idea of a pilot project, which is what we are dealing with today. We are not dealing with what will be an ongoing practice. I still think committees have the responsibility to present their reports in an acceptable manner consistent with other reports. Therefore, we could deal with it as a pilot project if we were to extend the process to see who is reading the reports and putting their hands on them.
I support going ahead with the pilot project. If we deem it worthwhile, it will be beneficial not only for this committee but for others as well.
The Chair: I do not get a sense that anyone is opposed. Senator Tkachuk has not said he is opposed. I do not think we should put it to a vote right now as time is not critical, and Senator Robichaud seems to indicate that it is not. I see no problem with taking a little more time. There are things the committee clerk can do in the meantime in the event that we do approve it. If it is okay with the committee, we will postpone this item and place it on the agenda for the next meeting.
Senator Massicotte: I have a question of Senator Tkachuk.
What process will you be taking to arrive at a decision? Perhaps we should all participate if that will allow you to make a better decision.
Senator Tkachuk: I have not heard from the committee itself on why the expenditure of $15,000 would make this a better and more well-read report.
Senator Massicotte: What do you propose?
Senator Tkachuk: I will research how many reports we produce each year and whether there is evidence regarding whether anyone reads these reports, where they are circulated, how many go to libraries, et cetera.
Senator Massicotte: I presume you will share that information with us.
Senator Tkachuk: Of course I will.
Senator Massicotte: It is not a party issue; it is a common sense issue.
Senator Tkachuk: I believe that our senators on the committee supported it. It is not a party issue.
Senator Massicotte: We may find out that no one reads our reports and therefore we should not exist.
Senator Tkachuk: There was a time when there were only two committees.
Senator MacDonald: I was on the subcommittee. Since I have come here, I have been struck by how much printed material I throw in the wastebasket in my office. Reports in which I have no inherent interest show up in my office.
The Chair: I hope you are saying that you put them in your recycling bin.
Senator MacDonald: Yes, I do.
The truth is that we spend a fortune producing material, and so much is dumped out. When this project was suggested, I asked how many reports we print annually and how they are distributed. A number could not be provided. I think we should use this as a trigger to review what we produce, in what form and how it is distributed.
Senator Tkachuk mentioned a CD. You can ditch a CD, too, but if you throw one away, you are throwing away 20 cents. A printed report is a lot more expensive. We should be looking at economies of scale in terms of how we produce and distribute material. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I would like us all to reflect on that and perhaps take this right back to our executive and our officials to look at what we produce and how efficiently it is used.
The Chair: If there is no objection, we will postpone conversation on the sixteenth report until the next meeting.
The next item on our agenda concerns the seventeenth report of the Subcommittee on the Review of Committee Budgets and International Travel.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: You have before you the subcommittee's seventeenth report that considered a request from the chair of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence to use a charter plane for the committee's fact-finding trip to Ontario military bases as part of its special study on national security policy.
Since the request falls within the budget envelope already approved for the activity and since the projected cost per person remains approximately the same as in the original budget submission, your subcommittee recommends approval of the request. While your subcommittee recommends approval, members were concerned that the letter requesting the change did not indicate whether it had been considered by the full committee or its steering committee.
In future, your subcommittee would appreciate receiving confirmation that any significant proposed changes to travel plans and budgets have been considered by the originating committee or its steering committee, as appropriate.
This report is respectfully submitted by members of the subcommittee, and I move adoption of the report.
The Chair: Are there any questions?
Senator Massicotte: I assume that, if we adopt this report, and the policy you propose, the committee will always have to approve the recommendations. That is what you are proposing.
Senator Robichaud: It is not a recommendation. We just say that we would appreciate receiving a confirmation.
Senator Fox: In this case, did you receive confirmation that the full committee approved the request?
Senator Robichaud: As I say in the report, we received a letter from the committee chair.
Senator Fox: Why would we say:
[English]
In future, your subcommittee would appreciate receiving confirmation . . . .
Why would it not apply to this case now?
[Translation]
Senator Massicotte: What is the answer to the question?
Senator Robichaud: The answer to the question is that this committee does things differently from the other committees. I do not want to go into any more detail. This committee has decided that some parts of its budget would be divided between the two parties sitting on the committee. That is a little different from what is done elsewhere. The letter came from the chair. These are significant changes, but they remain within the limits of what had been approved, if you consider the per-person cost. Fewer people will be traveling, but the cost per person is about the same. In fact, in the previous budget, the trip would have cost $3,470 per person, whereas the revised cost is $3,683. However, there is still a reduction of $19,000.
So we felt that they were staying within the budget and that it would be wrong to say no to a change that resulted in a savings of $19,000.
Senator Massicotte: So the answer to Senator Fox is no? Did the committee approve the chair's recommendation?
Senator Robichaud: No, I do not think so. We say "we would appreciate." We do not want to dictate to committees; committees have a degree of autonomy. But, to make our work easier, we do not want to be always questioning its members. It would be simpler for the clerk to submit a request to the subcommittee on agenda and procedure. We feel that, if we ask for these little things to be done, we will have a process that works well.
[English]
The Chair: Senator Robichaud's report is not asking for approval of travel but rather for an alternate means of travel under a budget that was previously approved by this committee.
[Translation]
Senator Comeau: I have two questions. I was under the impression that, when a committee has to travel, it is allowed to use the most economical means available, whether by bus, commercial flights or private plane. I was always under the impression that the committee even had the flexibility to choose its own means of transportation. Was I wrong?
Senator Robichaud: No, you are not wrong, but when the committee chair sends us a letter that makes changes, we have to look at how the changes are made within the amount the Senate has already approved so that we can be sure that they are not exceeding the budget or changing the nature of the activity.
Senator Comeau: I am wondering why the chair would need to come and see us to make a change of this kind that stays within the allowable norms. I thought that it was allowed, that the committee was allowed to do that.
Senator Massicotte: If they asked, they must have had a good reason.
Senator Robichaud: Initially, in the first budget submitted to this committee, they were talking about chartering a bus and touring the military bases, using a combination of air, bus and other travel, with a certain number of senators and committee staff. But the numbers have changed, and so they were perhaps able to charter a smaller plane, thereby reducing the number of days the committee needs to do its study. As well, there are fewer people traveling.
Senator Comeau: That changes things. The number of people traveling has changed. That answers my question.
My second question is about the words you mentioned: "would appreciate receiving." What happens if the subcommittee on agenda and procedure has a letter from the chair and not a letter from the committee? It is not a letter from the steering committee, it is a letter from the chair. To make your life easier in the future, you would like the letter to come from the subcommittee on agenda and procedure. So, why do we not insist that, in the future, a committee that wants to make a change of this magnitude has to come to us? Why not use the word "insist" rather than the word "appreciate"?
Senator Robichaud: If our suggestion is not accepted, we will probably use a stronger word in future reports.
Senator Comeau: I would like to see us use one now.
[English]
The Chair: It is a bit of a balancing act in that we do not want to interfere or be seen trying to dictate to committees how they should operate.
Senator Comeau: If I may, Mr. Chair, we are not dictating to the committee at this time. We are dictating to one person, the chair, who is not the president of a committee; he is the chair of a committee.
The Chair: In French, he is "le président."
Senator Comeau: I am trying to say that he is not the chief executive officer; he is the presiding officer of the committee. We are not responding to a committee request but rather to the person who chairs a committee on behalf of the members of the committee. We are not saying to the committee that we do not agree with their request. We are saying to the person who purports to represent the views of a committee that we are not in agreement. That is my distinction.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: I completely understand what you are saying, but the subcommittee is considering what is happening here. When the trip takes place as they said it would, I feel that the committee has a role to play, but we are not going to tell them what they have to do. These are all honourable senators, who very clearly understand the role of a chair, a vice chair, a steering committee and a committee.
Senator Comeau: One honourable senator; the others had nothing to do with the request at all, as far as I can see.
Senator Robichaud: I cannot confirm that. All I can tell you is that we received a letter signed by the chair of the committee.
[English]
The Chair: We have a motion by Senator Robichaud to adopt the seventeenth report. All those in favour? Contra- minded?
Carried.
(The committee continued in camera.)