Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 5 - Evidence - Meeting of May 5, 2010
OTTAWA, Wednesday, May 5, 2010
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:49 p.m. to examine the federal government's constitutional, treaty, political and legal responsibilities to First Nations, Inuit and Metis peoples and other matters generally relating to the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada (topic: issues concerning First Nations education).
[English]
Marcy Zlotnick, Clerk of the Committee: Good evening, honourable senators. We have quorum. Unfortunately, the chair is sick tonight and the deputy chair is also not present. As your clerk, it is my duty to preside over the election of an acting chair. I am wondering whether anyone would make a motion to that effect.
Senator Sibbeston: I will nominate Senator Patterson.
Ms. Zlotnick: Are there any other nominations? It is moved by the Honourable Senator Sibbeston that the Honourable Senator Patterson do take the chair of this committee as acting chair.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Zlotnick: Senator Patterson, I invite you to take the chair.
Senator Dennis Glen Patterson (Acting Chair) in the chair.
The Acting Chair: Good evening. Thank you very much. I am honoured by the trust you have placed in me.
I would like to welcome all honourable senators, members of the public and all viewers across the country who are watching these proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples on CPAC or on the World Wide Web.
My name is Dennis Patterson, and I represent Nunavut in the Senate. I am a new member of this committee, since 2009. I am happy to preside over the meeting this evening as acting chair in the absence of Senator St. Germain.
The mandate of this committee is to examine legislation and matters relating to the Aboriginal peoples of Canada generally. This gives the committee a broad scope to look into issues of all types that touch on matters of concern to First Nations, Metis and Inuit.
Our committee has undertaken a study of primary and secondary education of First Nations children living on- reserve. To gain further knowledge on this subject, we have invited the distinguished scholar Michael Mendelson of the Caledon Institute of Social Policy to speak to us tonight.
Mr. Mendelson has served in a number of senior-level posts in the governments of Ontario and Manitoba as well as in the federal Privy Council. Formerly a consultant for the Parliamentary Task Force on Federal-Provincial Fiscal Relations, he has also been a visiting professor at the University of Toronto School of Social Work.
Mr. Mendelson will speak to the committee about themes raised in two recent papers, Improving Education on Reserves: A First Nations Education Authority Act and Why We Need a First Nations Education Act. The papers set out what the author regards as the missing pieces that prevent First Nations education from forming a full education system.
[Translation]
Before we hear from our witnesses, allow me to introduce the members of the committee here today.
[English]
On my left is Senator Nick Sibbeston from the Northwest Territories, Senator Sandra Lovelace Nicholas from New Brunswick, Senator Wilfred Moore from Nova Scotia and Senator Elizabeth Hubley from Prince Edward Island. Welcome to the committee. On my right is Senator Daniel Lang from the Yukon, Senator Carolyn Stewart Olsen from New Brunswick, Senator Patrick Brazeau from Quebec, Senator Rose-May Poirier from New Brunswick and Senator Nancy Greene Raine from British Columbia.
Members of the committee, please help me in welcoming our witness from the Caledon Institute of Social Policy, Mr. Michael Mendelson, Senior Scholar.
Mr. Mendelson, please proceed with your presentation, and then we will entertain questions from senators.
Michael Mendelson, Senior Scholar, Caledon Institute of Social Policy: Thank you. I am honoured to be invited here and to be able to appear as your sole witness for this evening. I hope that we can have a lively and useful dialogue. I think this is one of the most important social issues, perhaps the most important social issue facing our country, as well as one of the most important economic issues facing Canada.
Today I notice that the C.D. Howe Institute put out a report pointing out that the future of many of the provinces depends fundamentally on the success of their Aboriginal populations, in particular Manitoba and Saskatchewan. It is not the first report to point that out. I wish I would not have been able to say this, but I also have made the same point in a few reports.
The C.D. Howe Institute was following in a tradition of pointing to an issue that challenges us as Canadians. The question is what to do about it. The reason I have been writing about First Nations education is precisely because that question was put to me by a group of chiefs, the representatives on the education subcommittee of the Assembly of First Nations, AFN.
I had completed a previous paper looking at the data from the census that pointed out the terrifying failure of First Nations students on reserves to complete high school and be able to go on to post-secondary education. I think that was one of the first papers that made, I suppose, the terribly obvious connection between the rate at which Aboriginal people are succeeding in post-secondary education and the rate at which Aboriginal people graduate from high school as a pre-condition to getting into post-secondary education. I presented that paper, and I was challenged with the question, ``What would you do about it?''
I found myself thinking about that question, and I have written a series of policy papers drawing on my experience in government. The chair did not mention that I have been a deputy minister and assistant deputy minister in several departments in Manitoba and Ontario. Drawing on my experience both in government and as a policy analyst, I see myself as trying to put together a package or a plan that would be acceptable both to government and to First Nations and that would move this item forward. I always have to ask myself, ``We are where we are today, but where will we be in 10 years? Will it be 10 years, 20 years or 30 years before we come up with an effective plan to improve schools on reserves?''
As one of my tasks, I took on what I characterized this afternoon as a mediation effort, a self-appointed mediator trying to draw on my policy experience and other elements of my background to develop a plan that both parties could accept.
That is what I have tried to do in the papers before you. I had the clerk distribute to everyone the paper entitled Why We Need a First Nations Education Act. I assume everyone has read it. What I intend to do today is to take you quickly through some of the major points I make in that paper. Then I hope we can have dialogue and discussion and think about these questions: Where will we be 10 years from now? Will we be having the same discussion 20 years and 30 years from now? Can we, as a country, tolerate not making progress on this critical issue for another generation or two?
The paper poses a scenario. Many years ago, in 1972, what was then the National Indian Brotherhood put out a paper with which I am sure you are all familiar, called Indian Control of Indian Education. It was a policy statement essentially asserting that First Nations should control their education and have the right to that control.
I see this as part of a very Canadian tradition, one that is reflected in our own Constitution. It is reflected in what was once the existence of Catholic boards in almost every province and confessional schools in others. I see this as part of that tradition. In fact, the federal government, in my view, has largely accepted the policy of First Nations control over First Nations education, but there is a second step. It is one thing to buy a car and own it, but if you cannot drive it or put any gasoline into it, then what does it mean to own it?
Control over First Nations education begins with being able to take responsibility for it, but you must also be able to drive it. Driving education means having a system of education. The first step has been taken, which is to cede, at least in policy theory, control over First Nations education to First Nations. The second step is to create the necessary organization, including financial infrastructure and other elements of educational infrastructure, so that there can be a high-quality First Nations education system. This has not been done. This paper is about how we can facilitate the creation of a First Nations education system.
I will mention the comments of Mr. Jim Prentice, former Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. He said that First Nations students are the only students in Canada who have no education system. Why is that? In this paper, I try to address one strategy to construct such a system.
People who write about education reform, and, as you know, an awful lot is written about education reform, always assume that there is an education system that can implement the education reform. In most cases there is one. Michael Fullan, one of the renowned scholars of education change in the world, writes about whole-system reform and talks about the need to engage the process of reform at all levels, from the school and actual teaching experience down to the school boards, government ministries and so on. You cannot have whole-system reform without a system. How do we construct a system to engage in whole-system reform?
What are we talking about?
You might know some of the data: somewhere over 500 schools on-reserve with about 110,000 to 120,000 students, although the exact count is not known, which is itself interesting. It is one of the few growing elements of education in the country. So far, it seems to be not working all that well. Some of the data I prepared previously showed that in Manitoba 70 per cent of the age group 20 to 24 years had not completed high school, which is a startling number. Overall, Manitoba had the highest non-completion rate. I looked at the age group 20 to 24 years from Census 1996 data. Those people should have completed high school. I am not looking back to the 1930s but to the 1990s, when they should have completed high school. Across Canada, about 60 per cent have not completed high school, compared to less than 20 per cent in the rest of the population.
This is not a good situation. Economic studies have shown that there are fantastic results if people complete high school, both for the individual and for Canada as a whole. I will not go through it all, but the study by Andrew Sharpe and a group out of the Centre for the Study of Living Standards, which is right around the corner and non-partisan, showed that Canada would benefit by a substantial component of GDP of under one point, keeping in mind that anything that would show up in GDP is a significant contribution to economic growth.
What do we need to build on? In my view, we need the kind of reforms undertaken in the public school systems in Canada starting in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s. Some of us, including me, are probably old enough to remember the school consolidation movement across Canada when rural school districts were created for a purpose. It was the only way to bring quality education to Canadians living in rural areas. There was a lot of controversy over it, but it was done, and I review it in the paper. We are talking about the same thing today for First Nations people. The first thing I would argue that we need for First Nations is First Nations school boards.
A First Nations school board is not just a loose group of schools that phone each other regularly and share a few resources. A school board is an organization that has both an executive management function and a service provision function. The executive management function is the essential element that is missing. It is the element that oversees quality, develops human resources and ensures the creation of a cadre of terrific principals. Many people with experience in the classroom say it is the principal who determines the nature and culture of the school. The executive management function of a school board is missing. I argue in my paper that First Nations school boards controlled and elected by First Nations and special purpose bodies that are not under the authority of the band and council but responsible only for education are the next step in what the National Indian Brotherhood called ``Indian control of Indian education.''
I have discussed the size and nature of school boards and how much consolidation would be undertaken. I will not go into that now.
Many people raise the issue of charter schools, independent schools or the idea of tuition vouchers. All of those ideas could be useful in some instances. If a charter school could start up on a reserve and be a good example, then all the more power to it. It might be useful, but it will not affect systemic reform. We have to look at improving all 510 schools. We have to determine how to implement systemic reform. In my view, the first step is the creation of a system manager, which is a school board. The second step is the ministry of education, which also has a vital role in both a management and a service function.
I am not suggesting the complete recreation of provincial ministries in a kind of parallel system. I do not think that would be logical or efficient. At the same time, it is not logical, efficient or possible to see First Nations school boards compelled to function under provincial ministries. I can envision setting up regional First Nations school entities that would be smaller and would function in partnership with provincial ministries to draw from their resources. They would also work with First Nations school boards to provide the kind of leadership and executive function provided by provincial ministries.
The financing issue is always critical, and everyone is always interested in it. My comments are not new by any means. This has been talked about by virtually everyone who writes about First Nations education. I am not being new and creative; I am being old and uncreative and trying to raise the same directions raised again and again by everyone who looks at this issue.
At the same time, we have to acknowledge that First Nations have tried to knit together their own alliances. They have tried to perform some of the functions I discussed more thoroughly in this paper than I am orally. It is difficult for First Nations to do that without the legal and financial frameworks and other supports necessary to create those functions.
I give examples in my paper. One outstanding example currently is the work done by the coalition of B.C. First Nations that came together for many years under an education steering committee. They worked with the federal government to pass the First Nations Jurisdiction over Education in British Columbia Act.
Although the act was passed about three years ago, the organization has not come into being because negotiations are still ongoing over financial arrangements. I think this is indicative of the kind of barriers and issues First Nations organizations face in trying to form effective alliances. What conditions do they have to meet? What precise accountability are First Nations expected to achieve? What does the Government of Canada offer in return? It seems like every negotiation is de novo; it has to start over again without any legislative substance.
I would challenge Parliament that it has not done its job. No law governs First Nations education. The law is the Indian Act. The act deals almost exclusively with truancy. It certainly does not deal with any educational issues.
Everyone in Canada currently operates under a system of law in regard to their education except First Nations. This is a point Jim Prentice also made to me. We do not have a system of law that will ask the executive function of government — represented by the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, INAC, in this case — about its roles and responsibilities: What are you accountable for? What must you provide to First Nations? In return, what do you expect First Nations to provide to you? None of this is set out anywhere in law.
A First Nations education act could be achieved by piecing together the bits and pieces that function under the authority of the executive. Currently, everything seems to be done under Treasury Board authority, which I suppose is an application of portions of the Treasury Board Act, which is quite broad. I challenge anyone to find the actual authorities because I have never been able to find them.
While all of these elements could be put together under the executive power, I see a First Nations education act as an opportunity for Parliament to say what is expected. It can also create the political momentum to change a serious stalemate on one of the most serious fundamental social and economic problems that Canada faces; and it can begin to change the character and nature of how that issue is addressed.
I will not go through further details, because the issue is covered more eloquently in writing than I can express orally. The document is not that hard to read if you want to sit down with it one evening.
The Acting Chair: Thank you. We have a full house this evening. I ask honourable senators to keep their questions focused, and the same of our witness in his responses.
Senator Sibbeston: Mr. Mendelson, I appreciate that you mean well and that you may have some mandate in having dealt with the Assembly of First Nations, the chiefs and so forth. However, I am leery and suspicious that you advocate an education system for First Nations in Canada that will keep First Nations isolated. I imagine it is perceived that anything INAC does is no good. Therefore, who will create the system of education? Indian and Northern Affairs Canada will provide the money and, perhaps, the personnel for a large new system of education. I do not know how else it would be done. The federal government is not in the education business. You purport that INAC provide the education system for the Aboriginal people in our country.
Education is in the provincial domain. Our system of education in Canada is very successful as a result of hundreds of years of experience and progress. It is like Ford building a truck. The provinces have built beautiful institutions of school boards. Their school system is good and efficient. It has taken a long time to achieve this.
You now suggest that First Nations people build a system. I am afraid you will build a Model T. INAC and the federal government will not have the expertise or even the integrity and interest to do something very good for the First Nations of our country.
I am leery when you say there should be a First Nations education system. All the progressive initiatives that have happened in our country through land claims, through the Nisga'a agreement, the Westbank agreement, the two acts that provide for Aboriginal control of education thus far in Canada are associated with the provinces. There are provisions for provincial standards at certain grades. If we are to do anything with education, it should be done in conjunction with the provinces. That is where the expertise is, and they are closest to the people. That is where the action on education should be.
I appreciate that you mean well, but I do not think the answer is for First Nations to create their own education system and to have the federal government or INAC heavily involved in it. The federal government has no knowledge or experience in education. It should stay out of it.
I speak from my experience in the Northwest Territories, where we do not have reserves. We do not have a different system of education for native people and for White people. Everyone in the North goes to the same school. There is tremendous gain from native people and White people being together in schools. You learn to get along. We have the same system and standards in all schools. Native people in the North have benefited greatly from that. White people have also learned about their native brothers and sisters. Both peoples have gained from the experience.
The Acting Chair: You wanted a dialogue, Mr. Mendelson. Here we go.
Mr. Mendelson: I discuss the role of provinces extensively on pages 13 and 14 of the paper in front of you. In a footnote, I also say that what I am discussing does not apply to the territories, which are in a totally different situation.
I appreciate what you are saying about provinces, but it is not correct to say that the federal government is not in the education business. Like it or not, the federal government is in the education business. It has been funding and — for whatever policy framework there is — supplying a policy framework for about 120,000 students who live on reserves. There is no practical way, and I would say there is no desirable way, that those schools can be compelled to function under the authority of provincial ministries. That will not happen. I would say it should not happen. However, even if you thought it should happen, it would not happen. In the paper, I call it a chimera. It is one of these things that we chase after but we can never capture. It is not a realistic alternative.
I would say that the federal government, like it or not, has a fiduciary responsibility on-reserve. I am sure it is a constitutional responsibility, and it may be a treaty responsibility as well. Like it or not, there it is. There are several questions: Will we be stalemated? How will we address this? Will we say there is another alternative, but it will never come to be, or will we deal with it head on?
I am advocating that we not ignore the provincial ministries but that we set up a system so that First Nations can enter into partnerships with the provincial ministries, use their standards for teacher education and use their standards of other kinds, use their expertise and their knowledge, but be able to draw on them as partners. Right now, they cannot do that, and they do not do that.
I think it is a good point, and I am glad you raised it, senator. I just do not think it is realistic.
The Acting Chair: Could you elaborate on how this voluntary partnership would work?
Mr. Mendelson: There are two elements necessary for a school system. One is school boards that administer and manage schools, and the other is the equivalent of provincial ministries that are responsible for management, essentially school boards and the provision of combined functions, such as curriculum, the setting of standards, and so on and so forth.
My policy suggestion is that a series of regional First Nations education authorities be established across Canada, likely one in each of the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and B.C., Ontario, and Quebec, and then one for all the Maritimes. I do not see this as a huge, elaborate bureaucracy. I see these as relatively small organizations. In fact, the kernel of these organizations exists in almost every province. For example, in Manitoba there is a Manitoba First Nations education organization. I cannot remember the name. There are organizations like this in B.C., and to some extent the B.C. First Nations jurisdiction group also provides that kind of nascent authority.
I would see these First Nations regional authorities functioning as partners with the provincial ministries to provide services to First Nations school boards and working closely with ministries. In fact, I would hope that in most cases they would be co-located.
The report of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples said the same thing. Other people, such as Harvey McCue, who ran the Mi'kmaq and the Cree school boards for a while, have argued for a similar kind of structure. Others have looked at the need to establish a First Nations education system.
We are not talking about recreating provincial ministries. We are not talking about isolating students any more than they are isolated now — far from it. We are talking about modernizing First Nations education, about providing quality First Nations education, and about providing First Nations education such that students in First Nations can then transfer, in a meaningful way, to schools that are not on the reserve. Right now, about 40 per cent of on-reserve high school students go to schools off-reserve. It is not isolation any more than the existence of Catholic schools is isolation or that confessional schools were isolation.
Senator Poirier: When you speak about your First Nations regional authorities, saying there is one for each province, with maybe the Maritime provinces being together as one, do you see this body that you are calling an authority as similar to the education department's role in a province?
Mr. Mendelson: I would not see it as duplicating the province. Yes, I would see the role as similar, but I would see it fulfilling that role by drawing on the resources of the province, as well as developing some resources of its own. For example, in Manitoba, a Cree or Ojibway curriculum, which would probably be shared in Northern Ontario and in Saskatchewan as well, might be one of the specific roles that would be undertaken by the regional authority. However, the authority would draw upon the other curriculum standards for subjects like mathematics and English, which are developed by the provincial ministries.
Senator Poirier: Would these authorities be the group responsible for setting up either an elected or an appointed school board?
Mr. Mendelson: No. I would see the school boards as being elected by First Nations, not by the chiefs but by First Nations members themselves, just like school boards in the rest of Canada. However, the regional authorities could be structured in a number of ways. I would see them as being structured democratically, perhaps with some appointees from a province or from some of the political organizations, but probably structured through elected representatives from the school boards that they are supervising. There might be some popular election too. There are different ways of doing that, but ultimately there has to be accountability, electorally, of responsible elected officials.
Senator Poirier: You mentioned that currently about 40 per cent of First Nation students are in the provincial system of education. Should that number be worked on and partnerships increased, or do you think it would be better to try to make the on-reserve system better rather than trying to promote outside of the reserve?
Mr. Mendelson: Let me clarify that number. First, it is not certain. One of the issues is that there is very little data that is certain. Out of the 110,000 to 120,000 kindergarten to grade 12 students who are resident on-reserve, most go to a high school where they are bused, or otherwise go to a high school that is not on the reserve. That is the 40 per cent I am talking about.
There are 500 and some schools on reserves. Most of those, but not all, go up to grade 6 or grade 9. On some of the larger reserves there are high schools. There are many high schools.
About 40 per cent of the students on-reserve currently go to provincial schools, and their tuition is paid for them by INAC, usually by the band. In other words, the band gets the money and the band pays the province. However, that is not really known. Nobody has really done a study of what goes on across Canada, so I am not sure of that, either.
Senator Poirier: I am aware that that does happen, because in the area where I live in New Brunswick, most of the schools that are experiencing a growth in population are doing so due to First Nations students going to them, and there is a transfer from the federal to the provincial government.
Do you believe that we should promote more of that, or, on the contrary, should we focus more on the First Nations schools?
Mr. Mendelson: I would want First Nations themselves to try to make these decisions, but where it is efficient and reasonable I think there should be schools on reserves, because a community school functions better and can have a deeper relationship with parents and families, which is one of the critical components of successful education.
However, due to size, that is not practical or efficient in many cases, particularly for high schools. It is a question of mixing what is pragmatically possible and efficient with what is desirable and what First Nations want.
The Acting Chair: I think you were referring to the Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre and Healthy Child Manitoba.
Mr. Mendelson: Yes, I was.
Senator Stewart Olsen: I commend you for thinking a bit outside the box. However, first, I am not sure what the legislation you envision would say. Would we be ordering the provinces to comply or the bands to comply? That is the first difficulty.
Second, in my limited experience here I have learned that most bands are very proud of their own traditions on their reserves and proud of their own way of doing things. I do not think you could have one entity that would oversee this. I think you would end up with 500 entities trying to oversee this and creating another layer of bureaucracy to try to do the same thing, probably unsuccessfully.
Mr. Mendelson: I will try to answer this directly. We would not be ordering bands to comply. As Parliament, you would be ordering INAC to comply. Your job in Parliament is to develop legislation and laws that govern the actions of the executive branch. The executive branch is the government. Right now the government is operating under a series of —
Senator Stewart Olsen: I am sorry to interrupt you, but to keep it as brief as possible, we would be ordering INAC to do what?
Mr. Mendelson: You would be ordering INAC to allow bands that want to form an educational alliance that has the characteristics of and that functions as a school board to do so. It would allow those bands to form a real, honest school board, and it would set out the reciprocal accountability of the bands to their members and to the Government of Canada as well as the accountability of the Government of Canada to the bands. It would set out the terms of funding for those arrangements, if the First Nations decided to enter into them.
One of my points is that this is not about compelling bands; it is about allowing bands to opt in. I made a list of approximately 20 First Nations alliances where First Nations have been trying to come together to do precisely this. It is not like they have not been seeing the need and trying; they have been, but it is very difficult. The House of Commons and the Senate passed the First Nations Jurisdiction over Education in British Columbia Act, and for almost four years they have been negotiating the financing agreements. Why is the framework for financing not set out in the statute like it would be in every other statute I know of?
I have negotiated many federal-provincial fiscal arrangements, and we do not start from ground zero with a blank slate every time we begin a negotiation, which would take six or seven years. I am not saying that we are not making progress, but it will take 500 years before all the bands will have completed negotiations and are in a situation where they can set up functioning schools.
Senator Stewart Olsen: Are you saying that INAC is actually telling them that they cannot form this?
Mr. Mendelson: No, because INAC does not have to say no; it just has to not be able to provide the kind of framework that is necessary to allow them to function adequately as school boards, and it is not able to do that now. It is not that they do not want to; they cannot. They do not have the legislative framework to do it.
When we, outside of First Nations, formed consolidated rural school districts, how and why was that done? If you look at history, you will see that there were screams from rural mayors everywhere, particularly in Saskatchewan.
Senator Stewart Olsen: It was done within the parameters of the provinces that hold educational rights. You are suggesting taking that away from the provinces and legislating —
Mr. Mendelson: The provinces do not have jurisdiction over First Nations education on-reserve. You have that jurisdiction. I do not know whether Canada wants it or not, but it has it. I am not a lawyer, but I would be very surprised if the over-100-year exercise of this constitutional jurisdiction was not backed up by the courts. You have a school system with 120,000 students on-reserve.
Senator Stewart Olsen: Thank you.
Mr. Mendelson: I am sorry to be disputatious.
The Acting Chair: That is fine. You asked for a dialogue and you are getting it.
Senator Stewart Olsen: I do not agree with you, but that is good.
Senator Lang: I want to make a couple of observations at the outset. I think I heard the witness say that we are in the education business. From these statistics, I would say that we are not in the education business.
Mr. Mendelson: We are in the education failures business.
Senator Lang: We can start from the premise that, although intentions may be good, in reality it is a failed system. I do not see how a system separate from that of the provinces will necessarily fix the problem of the way education is currently delivered on the reserves.
I come from an area in Yukon where schools are intermixed. All the children go to the same schools in the community in which they live. It is not perfect, but at the end of the day the children who get the necessary guidance and care come out with an education, and in many cases a very good education.
You used the world ``compel.'' You said that we could not have a cross-country system with the provinces unless it was done on a separate type of partnership agreement, because otherwise we would be compelling the First Nations to take part in the provincial system. One way of thinking outside the box would be to look at a system that would be enabling for those who wish to participate. Those who do not want to participate do not have to.
We do not have to go to the lawyers or to the constitutional experts. I will bet you we have spent more money on constitutional experts and lawyers on this committee in the last 20 years than we have on the education system. We do not have to go there; we have been there and failed.
The point I am making here is that Canada is so thinly and sparsely populated, and there are so many differences across this country between New Brunswick, British Columbia and Manitoba, for instance. To say that we will bring in one federal act, no matter what you call it, that will fix all the problems in Northern British Columbia and Manitoba, I would submit to you that we are dealing in Alice in Wonderland.
From my perspective, I think we should be looking at those schools close by where there is an elementary system on the reserve, yet it is close enough to bus students to a high school. It seems to me that you should be looking at trying to combine the forces that are there, and if they are close enough, to get those elementary kids in conjunction with the school close by. Or vice versa: maybe the school on the reserve is in better shape than the one off-reserve, so kids could come in from the other side and have a school council or school board that is represented by the various segments of the population to run the organization with the provinces.
The other problem I see with what you are submitting, although on the surface it sounds good, is that in every department of education across this country, it is just not the teacher in the classroom; there are also the special education programs and all the other ancillary things that come together to make an education system. If you have a separate system to the side, those kids will not get the care and attention they require, because everyone will be fighting over the power.
Have you considered the concept of enabling legislation that would permit those First Nations in some provinces to take advantage of that as an option?
Mr. Mendelson: Yes. I discuss that in this paper, actually. The short answer is yes, I have thought about that, and I do recommend it as a possibility, if a band decides to do so.
There are some examples in Canada today of bands that have opted to run under the authority of the provincial ministry. There is the Cree school board in Northern Quebec, which is an agreement that is pretty old now. It is a special school board under Quebec legislation jointly funded by the province and the federal government. I think it is 75 per cent federal and 25 per cent provincial.
In Northern Manitoba, there is the Frontier School Division, which is the northern school board. It is not the Frontier Policy Centre. It is an entirely different thing. It is a public school board that allows bands to opt in, and it now runs eight First Nations schools in Northern Manitoba that have voluntarily opted in.
I do recommend that if a band wants democratically to be part of a provincial system, then it ought to be. What I am suggesting to you is that it is good to have an option, but for the vast majority of First Nations in Canada, that will not be acceptable. It will also not be acceptable to provinces. We can talk about it more if you want.
Consequently, I am very concerned about something aside from cultural and other issues of autonomy. Let us not worry about that. Let us just be practical. I am worried about a solution that says we will not reorganize First Nations schools, develop a First Nations school system or put in the effort to make it better. The solution is that we will allow them to go under the authority of provincial ministries and the provinces will take care of it. I guarantee that another four generations will pass by. That is a 50-year approach. It will not happen. There will be tremendous resistance from the vast majority of First Nations, and there will be resistance from provinces for both political and financial reasons. Consequently, in my view, it is a policy that will just not work. I think this is an urgent social problem. There are other issues as well.
Senator Lang: I appreciate your observations, Mr. Mendelson, because I think in part you are right, but not totally right.
I will say this again: Yes, in some cases, because of geography and a number of other reasons, that ability could be there for them to run their own schools. However, in so many other cases, that other option is available to them. I am saying that perhaps thinking outside of the box, we should have enabling legislation. The rules outline where those First Nations want to work with the community next door and with the provincial education department to put it into place. I do not want to wait four generations, and I do not think anybody around this table does. I think we have already waited four generations.
Mr. Mendelson: There is a lot of cooperation happening now. I do not want to leave the impression there is not, including kids living in proximity to reserves where that is the closest school and there are reverse tuition payments.
I would see this First Nations education act as enabling bands to do so, if they wish. I mention that. I see that as part of the statute, but I am certain that the vast majority of bands would say they want a First Nations education authority themselves and will not accept provincial jurisdiction. Consequently, we need to deal with that reality.
However, I would see this as one of the enabling functions in this legislation.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Do you see INAC having control over the school boards for funding and reporting responsibilities?
Mr. Mendelson: I would hope that INAC could set up a well-functioning education component and be a supportive entity, but I would expect that the legislation would set out the framework, which would govern INAC. Ultimately, if you are paying the money, someone at the federal government has to sign the cheques. Unless the Government of Canada is willing to set up a new education ministry — which maybe it would be, and I would not be opposed to it, but I doubt it — I would see that having to be INAC. Frankly, it would be a management and administrative challenge.
However, well-designed legislation should set out the functions that INAC would have to perform as well as its accountability. I am told the Auditor General said there is no way for her to hold INAC accountable because there is no legislation that it operates under. I would hope it had legislation it could operate under.
I suppose my long answer is yes, but with a lot of change and effort going into it.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: I feel there should be a change in INAC's policy, because the fact is that Aboriginal children do want an education, but sometimes they pick a field that is not covered under INAC. For example, if someone wanted to take a one-year or two-year program, it is not covered by INAC; it must be university and whatnot. That should be one of the changes that INAC or the school boards undertake.
Mr. Mendelson: This is primarily about kindergarten to grade 12 and sometimes pre-kindergarten, which is one of the issues.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Eventually they do go to higher schooling.
Mr. Mendelson: Yes. There are other issues around post-secondary education I am not personally in favour of, except in certain circumstances — separate post-secondary education. I think that is a whole other issue.
Geographically, we have First Nation schools. Are we going to pretend they do not exist, or are we going to make them work so that kids can get a decent education, graduate from high school and have some options?
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: You mentioned provincial partnerships with First Nation communities, but that will be hard to do because of racism. I remember wanting a higher education and having to protest the nearby school so that I could attend. I would say good luck on those partnerships.
Mr. Mendelson: Senator, there was a time when you would lose your status if you got a higher education, as I am sure you know. There are many barriers to overcome. Your point is about falling under the responsibility of the provincial ministry. Points could be made either way.
Senator Hubley: This is my second committee today on education. The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology is looking at post-secondary education. Today's witnesses were from three associations of universities and community colleges. They are very much aware of the First Nations educational system and the gaps therein. They are also aware that the success of our First Nations will in many ways indicate the success of the provinces, that we have to address this issue, that we are missing out on such a great potential, and that we have to find solutions to help them.
At page 7, you give examples of First Nations multi-school organizational initiatives in 2006. Certainly there has been some concern within First Nations communities and within educational systems in provinces that there must be organizations, which seem to have started. What role do they play, and how do they affect the movement toward a better educational system for First Nations?
At page 10, you talk about First Nations SchoolNet Regional Management Organizations. What is their role, and how do they affect the educational system of First Nations?
Mr. Mendelson: On page 7 of my document, I provide a list, taken from a piece by Harvey McCue, of First Nations multi-school organizational initiatives. They are everything from the Mi'kmaq Kina'matnewey, which is the Mi'kmaq school board established a number of years ago. It functions much better as a board now after much trouble and difficulty and is taking hold of negotiated initiatives. The Union of Ontario Indians has been attempting to negotiate an agreement with Ottawa for about 10 years on setting up a First Nations jurisdiction act. Some of the ones I listed have fallen apart.
The point is that it is difficult to do. The Mi'kmaq school board has a separate piece of legislation in Ottawa. The B.C. act has a separate piece of legislation. Each negotiation starts afresh with no consideration of any previous negotiations, no ground rules stated in advance and no written framework. These negotiations can easily take 10 to 12 years. During that time, people come and go. The story of the First Nations Jurisdiction over Education in British Columbia Act bears repeating. It has been almost four years since that legislation was passed and signed, but there is still no B.C. First Nations education authority because they have not finished their negotiation, and there were no ground rules. It is difficult for these First Nations organizations to do what they are trying to do.
I have many friends in INAC, and I am not trying to blame them because they do not have any ground rules either. I suppose I am blaming Parliament for not setting the ground rules and for not establishing a framework to tell INAC what it is supposed to do and what it should be accountable for. This has to be set up in law so that we are able to have successful negotiations.
As well, there is not a good evaluation system. For example, we have the Cree and the Mi'kmaq school boards and the experiences of the Frontier School Division in Manitoba. We have unique arrangements across the country. However, it is hard to find out what they are, and it is even harder to find any evaluation of them. You would think that with all these natural experiments happening, we would evaluate them to know what they mean for others. You cannot always translate one experience into another experience, because there are always unique aspects. There are things to learn. Maybe things have been done in private, but I cannot find any evaluations done by neutral parties. That would be called for.
To the second part of your question, the regional net is composed of organizations that provide access to the Internet and other technology supports for schools. Some people here probably know more about it than I know. They have been so successful that almost all the schools, even remote ones, have access. Sometimes that access is not great, but the technology functions. I use them as an example. There are six regional organizations, which demonstrates the possibility of setting up regional authorities. This is only one component of the kind of work that a regional education authority would do. We are not talking about something outlandish, in that they work in partnership with the provinces. I am sure there are complaints about it because there are complaints about everything.
Senator Hubley: The Indian Act is legally in force. I believe you said that sections of it are so obsolete as to be inoperative.
Mr. Mendelson: Yes, I said that.
Senator Hubley: Should sections 114 to 122 be carved out of the Indian Act?
Mr. Mendelson: They should be thrown out.
Senator Hubley: Should they be replaced by a First Nations education act? Is that what you recommend?
Mr. Mendelson: The mechanism I would argue for is that Parliament would pass a First Nations education act. Bands that wish to opt into it could do so. In opting in, they would then be opted out of the Indian Act. Those bands that did not want to change would not be compelled to change. It is all about enabling change and a bit more. If it were well done, it would also encourage change.
Senator Raine: I find this discussion very interesting. I have followed the First Nations Education Steering Committee in British Columbia.
Mr. Mendelson: The steering committees.
Senator Raine: Are they getting bogged down solely because there is no framework for INAC? I understand from reading the newspaper that this is the third agreement of its kind. We have the Cree, the Mi'kmaq and now B.C. Is it better than the others? Did they learn from previous mistakes? Is it a model for what could be if we achieve this framework?
Mr. Mendelson: There are regional management organizations that have significant control over their education. The Nishnawbe in Northwestern Ontario set up significant educational structures that they share among bands. It is very heterogeneous around the country. You cannot find a description of everything that is happening. I am out of date on the various initiatives.
Regarding the B.C. situation, B.C. First Nations often lead in many activities in the country. First Nations have a well- functioning education group, the First Nations Education Steering Committee, which has worked with the province and federal government for a long time. The First Nations Jurisdiction over Education in British Columbia Act is quite different than the Mi'kmaq act. The Mi'kmaq act has almost nothing about education in it. It simply enables the administrative organization to be established. There is little content in the act.
The B.C. negotiations include significant educational content. They talk about the standards. They clearly set out the responsibilities of First Nations opting in and what they can do to opt out. Components of the act provide important models.
There are problems. It mixes up tertiary and secondary responsibility. In other words, what is the role of a school board and what is the role of a ministry? Many undertakings are more ministry-level undertakings simply because of their expense. It is well thought through.
Having set out responsibilities and accountabilities, you then need financing to go with it. That financing was not worked out. I am not privy to the current negotiations. Some of the people I knew who were involved have left because they have had enough. It has been four years. I am told, second-hand, that the current issue is financing. If you tell First Nations they will be accountable for X, Y and Z, then the Government of Canada is responsible to provide the resources for First Nations to do X, Y and Z. Otherwise, they do not want to be held accountable.
I urge senators to call in the group to have them report to you on what is happening. I may have it all wrong. You passed this legislation four years ago. Does no one care?
Senator Raine: Does the B.C. legislation include setting up school boards?
Mr. Mendelson: No, it proposes a mix of a school board and a regional authority in one. It is like a school board. First Nations opt in, but the body does not have all of a school board's responsibilities. In some sense, a school board needs to own the schools. This legislation would subrogate authority to individual bands. It does not take that further step.
It is complicated. As I understand it, bands are not allowed to opt out. I am unsure of the exact boundaries, but the body is a regional authority — a provincial ministry — and a school board in one. The Mi'kmaq and Cree organizations are clearly school boards.
Senator Raine: I was a school trustee myself years ago. I understand clearly what school boards do. They own, operate and look after schools.
Mr. Mendelson: Yes.
Senator Raine: When I think of scattered rural schools in the different reserves, there is no economy of scale. If you hire a schoolteacher for a small school, you cannot expect the teacher to look after the school as well. There are good reasons to form school boards that could share those kinds of services.
Mr. Mendelson: Senator, that is why every person and every study that has looked at this issue has said there must be school boards. It is why we created school boards for non-First Nations schools and why Minister Jim Prentice asks why there is not a school system. It is not an ideological issue. Everyone has come to the same conclusion, particularly those like you who have experience on the ground.
Senator Raine: As I understand it currently, funding for schools goes from INAC, based on some formula, to the band administration to be spent on schools. I do not know their guidelines or how they report, but I see how that could be difficult.
Mr. Mendelson: There are several different arrangements for funding bands. Some bands have consolidated financing. They are given one lump sum. They can move funds around within that, and they can and they sometimes have to move funds.
Some bands do great things. I know the band in The Pas because a friend of mine works for it. The band decided that its education funding is ``ring fenced,'' that it will go only to schools. I am sure you can find examples of other bands that end up using the money for social assistance. However, in the last 10 years, First Nations have really turned to wanting education. Education used to be questionable. I am sure you can find exceptions, but First Nations are looking toward education. We need to find a way to let First Nations realize these aspirations.
Senator Raine: From my experience as a trustee, I understand that the kind of a person who wants to be an education trustee in the community is not necessarily the same kind of person who wants to run the band. It is a different viewpoint. Anything we can do to move that along should be encouraged.
Mr. Mendelson: I am not quite old enough to remember, but I am told that mayors used to like to appoint their mothers-in-law as the principal of the school. That was one issue taken on in rural consolidation of the school system.
I do not say that is happening in bands. What I said about bands aspiring to improve education is I think overwhelmingly true and becoming truer every day in Canada.
This comes back to human nature and things happen. I agree with you strongly.
The Acting Chair: The Assembly of First Nations Grand Chief has made education his theme.
Further on that, on page 11 of your paper you talk about the same question that Senator Raine raised, which is that First Nations granting full authority to a special purpose First Nations organization, a school board, would be a challenge to the current status quo in First Nations governance.
Could you expand on how you see that as a challenge and how you would propose that it be met?
Mr. Mendelson: In the same way as it was a challenge to mayors to take the power to run the schools out of their hands and put the power into school boards that were responsible. It is human nature to think that you will do a better job than someone else on anything you are doing. I am sure many bands and councillors would be reluctant to part with the responsibility for running the school. It is a big part of every budget. I am just trying to be realistic. On the other hand, I am sure that many bands and councils would jump at the opportunity to improve their schools. In fact, many bands are trying to set up independent organizations.
I would see the First Nations education act as an enabling act that would allow bands to opt in, and I am sure that there are many that would do so, as we have seen. I suspect that if it were proven that there was indeed functional, reciprocal accountability — that is, not just accountability of First Nations for how they spend their money, but also accountability by the government to First Nations for creating the conditions that allow for education — I am sure the majority of bands would opt in over time. I think that is the way we have to go about it.
To answer your question in a shorter way, I would see this as enabling legislation that would allow bands that wished to do so to opt in. I believe many bands would opt in initially, and most would in a short order of time, if it was a good piece of legislation and if it proved effective.
Senator Brazeau: Thank you Mr. Mendelson, for being here. I have to say from the onset that I am glad we are having this dialogue around your paper. Others have recently issued their own papers, such as the Macdonald-Laurier Institute's paper entitled Free to Learn: Giving Aboriginal Youth Control over Their Post-Secondary Education, which is another piece for greater dialogue.
Let me be blunt. You mentioned at the beginning that one reason that led you to write this paper was that you met with a subcommittee of chiefs of the Assembly of First Nations. Having had a lot of experience with national Aboriginal organizations, and having headed one myself, I know that usually one of their mandates is to provide policy input to the federal government to move forward on several issues. I am glad the Assembly of First Nations did that with respect to education.
When one goes to an outside source for recommendations or for advice or for a position paper, obviously it will always reflect the interests of the clients who are requesting the paper or recommendations or advice. Consultation has always been important. We constantly hear, from chiefs in particular, about the importance of consultations.
What level of consultations have you had with grassroots Aboriginal peoples leading up to the development of this paper?
Mr. Mendelson: Let me first clarify, because I do not want to leave a wrong impression. I was challenged by chiefs, and not only by chiefs but by others, who said, ``If this is such a problem, what would you do about it?'' I developed these policy proposals on my own. I am not representing the AFN. In fact, I thought long and hard about whether I should take on this task.
I am not First Nation myself, obviously, and I am not in government, but I do see myself as having some pretty deep experience in policy. I sort of made myself a self-appointed mediator, if I can use that term, and I tried to develop a policy proposal that I thought could be acceptable both to government and to the AFN, but I did it entirely on my own. I am told by some in the AFN, and by others, that they like this approach, but other chiefs have told me they do not like it.
I am representing myself only. I know this paper has been widely read. With that, it has done its function of stimulating thought. I am anxious to get this. I do not want to see another 30 years go by and nothing happen. I go to meetings; I get invited to give talks, and I talk to a lot of educators. I have not spoken to many parents, but the reaction from educators is very good, actually; it is quite positive. From chiefs I have had different reactions. There has sometimes been the response that this is a treaty right, so why do we need a piece of legislation? I have an answer for that.
People are, like you, skeptical. They want to understand their Ps and Qs before they buy anything.
Senator Brazeau: I am certainly not skeptical. I just want to try to get to a place where we are actually going to provide some results and some educational attainment for Aboriginal students, in particular.
The reason I ask that question is because you have been talking about accountability, which I obviously support, but I have not heard you talk about accountability from those who are administering, on the ground, the educational funds today on behalf of their constituents, so the accountability from band chiefs to their citizens.
When we are dealing with INAC, First Nations communities and grassroots people, we are talking about a three- way accountability street. I just heard you talk about two, and you forgot the most important, in my view.
Having said that, let us go to the gist of what you are proposing in your paper, and that is to perhaps create regional school boards across the country. I have some hesitancy in accepting that, similar to my colleague Senator Lang.
Have you done a cost analysis of how much that would cost taxpayers across the country?
Mr. Mendelson: Yes.
Senator Brazeau: Do you see it as sort of a duplication of existing services? Obviously we have provincial school boards, and so why not, instead of reinventing the wheel and creating separate First Nations school boards, have more participation in the existing provincial ones?
Mr. Mendelson: I do talk about the costs in my paper. In the heat of the moment, I cannot find the pages, but I am sure someone will. I talk about the potential costs, and I do a rough risk analysis. The total mature cost that I thought might be the ballpark was about $200 million, which is a lot of money; I am not trying to minimize it. However, I think that would have significant social returns. If in fact it did result in a substantive improvement in kindergarten to grade 12 education, it would probably have the highest rate of return of any investment we could make.
I would argue that is not a lot. On an annualized basis, it is probably about $20 million to $40 million. We are not talking about outrageous sums of money for this kind of initiative and given the nature of the problem. If this were effective, it would be hard for me to think of a better use of money. I know that money is tough to come by. I am not making light of it. There are costs involved.
I also want to mention that we have held the growth of the overall budget to 2 per cent a year. Many of the provinces, in particular Ontario, but also Alberta, Manitoba, I think Saskatchewan as well, and B.C., have increased their education funding for kindergarten to grade 12 much more rapidly than 2 per cent, particularly when you look at it on a capitation basis per student.
Consequently, we are falling further and further behind on First Nations reserves. They have to compete in the same labour resource pool. They have to hire teachers and keep them, and that is becoming more and more difficult. Yes, there are costs associated with it, but there will be a bill to pay one way or another, because we are falling further behind. We cannot let that go on forever or they literally will not be able to hire a teacher with credentials.
The other issue was accountability. I like to think about reciprocal accountability, or three-way accountability. In my vision, the school boards would be democratically elected by members, and the ultimate accountability would be to them, but you would want to have in the legislation the kind of reporting and audit responsibilities and so on that are ordinarily required of a public organization. I think that would be met.
I do not want to look backward. Returning to the money issue and the accountability issue, there was a big exercise to try to find out how much First Nations get per student compared to other schools. People did years of forensic accounting and auditing. You can look at it six ways to Sunday and add it up in different ways. How do you take capital costs into account; what is the unclaimed depreciation worth; and everything else? You end up with a huge, long report that no one can really make sense of. I do not want to get involved in that. I do not want to look backwards. We have to look forwards, senator, and find a way to not think about what the accountability was or even is today. I am not that interested in it. I want to think about how we can set up a structure tomorrow that will work with accountability for good education first, and then accountability also to ensure that there is proper expenditure of public funds.
Senator Brazeau: I agree with you entirely about looking forward and not looking backwards. However, sir, you also spoke about the 2 per cent funding cap. Let facts be facts. Without getting partisan, it was Paul Martin, when he was the finance minister, who introduced this 2 per cent funding cap.
Moving forward, why should we introduce an education act? The current system is basically based on policy. If you talk to chiefs, they will tell you that they are being accountable but there is a lack of funding. If we talk to INAC, which this committee has on several occasions, not only on education but also on other fronts, people there will tell you that they do not have the capacity and the expertise to oversee the administration of the education funding that goes to on- reserve communities. If you talk to grassroots Aboriginal peoples living in those communities, they will tell you that there is a lack of accountability from their chiefs because, let us face it, if you have a toothache you do not call the plumber. They acknowledge that chiefs do not have the expertise to administer education funding.
It all boils down to policy. There could be strengthened mechanisms in Indian and Northern Affairs Canada for more accountability. Nothing is denying that right of any First Nations community to have a body of Aboriginal experts to administer the budget to ensure that there are actual educational outcomes on the reserves. However, the fact remains that band chiefs and councils do not want to let go of their authority to administer those funds. That is why there is hesitancy to look at provincial school boards having more input into their curriculum development.
Why have an education act? How is that better than putting in strengthened mechanisms to tighten up the loose edges?
Mr. Mendelson: I do not think it is fair to characterize all First Nations, bands and chiefs that way. There are increasingly many who are very concerned about education and aspiring to improve it.
However, let us not get into that. We could happily have this discussion for the next decade, but I am advocating changing the channel. I want to change the discussion. I do not want to go back to the same old discussion.
You asked why we should have a First Nations education act. It is an opportunity to change the channel. I do not argue that this is the only way to make change, but I see it as an opportunity for the Government of Canada and First Nations to come together with a new foundation, a new policy for mutual accountability and types of organizations. It will be in a statute and INAC will respond to it. We will have a new framework with a new way to approach a problem.
We have an enormous social problem, and we can go on trying to deal with it in a piecemeal way, but we need to mobilize ourselves, and I see a First Nations education act as an opportunity to do that.
My answer is the worst answer and the best answer. Ultimately it is a political act, in the best sense of the word ``political.'' It is ultimately a statute that says that our representatives in Canada will try to improve the quality of education on-reserve and that we are dedicated to doing so.
Senator Brazeau: Is the enactment of such legislation possible without input and full participation and cooperation from the provinces?
Mr. Mendelson: It is not possible without the full cooperation of the AFN. That is just realistic.
The new national chief is dedicated to making progress on education. I think there is an opportunity here, and I hope that we will have the sense to take advantage of it. I think the new national chief, Shawn Atleo, would take this on. I think he would engage with the Government of Canada if the Government of Canada said it would do this.
Senator Brazeau: My question was about the provinces.
Mr. Mendelson: The provinces are, in some sense, more difficult. However, I am pretty knowledgeable about the Prairie provinces, and they are desperate, not to put too fine a face on it. Certainly Manitoba and Saskatchewan are, and I think they would happily take part in this kind of negotiation. I do not know the Maritimes that well. I think that Ontario would as well.
The provinces always ask first where the money is. I have negotiated for provinces, so I am not disparaging them in saying that. The provinces will be trying to guard their interests, but I think the Prairie provinces, including Alberta, have recognized that they must do something about First Nations education on-reserve. My sense is that they would be eager to participate and do what they can to be a useful partner.
Senator Brazeau: I thank you for that. I have to respectfully disagree, because nothing is precluding the provinces from entering into some type of arrangement or tripartite agreements with First Nations and the Government of Canada as we speak.
Mr. Mendelson: They are. They did.
Senator Brazeau: Some of them have begun, yes, but not at the rate that you are talking about so that we do not lose four generations.
Mr. Mendelson: The B.C. jurisdiction act was accompanied by a parallel act of the province, as was the Mi'kmaq act, as they must be. I think all the provinces are willing to do that. However, again, will you pass one-off legislation each time? How long will it take?
Senator Brazeau: And the results of those agreements are yet to be determined.
Mr. Mendelson: That is right. The Mi'kmaq one is in existence and I think is working out, although I have not seen an evaluation.
It is taking a long time, yes. Look at the B.C. situation.
Senator Moore: Thank you for being here, Mr. Mendelson. I think you said in your opening remarks that in Manitoba, 70 per cent of the First Nations young people between the ages of 20 and 24 years have not completed high school. Is that right?
Mr. Mendelson: Yes. That is right.
Senator Moore: What year were those statistics taken?
Mr. Mendelson: That was from Census 2001.
Senator Moore: Do we have any more current figures?
Mr. Mendelson: I do not have —
The Acting Chair: Let me interrupt, if I may. We did receive detailed statistical information that is on the record. Numbers have improved a bit, but not a lot. There is about a one-third provincial success rate in high school for First Nations.
Senator Moore: When was the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples? What was the date of that?
The Acting Chair: It was 1993 or so. It was in the Mulroney era.
Mr. Mendelson: It was appointed by Prime Minister Mulroney, but I think it reported after he was no longer prime minister. It was around that era.
The Acting Chair: The early 1990s.
Senator Moore: Thank you. In your 2008 report, Improving Education on Reserves: A First Nations Education Authority Act, you stated that the culture at INAC ``has become one of sending cheques'' since devolution began in 1973. Do you still feel that way, and if so, why?
Mr. Mendelson: I think INAC is trying to develop more of an educational basis, but if you go through and ask how many people in the education branch actually have an education background, ``precious few'' is the answer.
I am not blaming INAC. The government agreed to the policy of First Nations control over First Nations education, and the interpretation of it was ``send a cheque and go away.'' That is what the government did. I think in the last few years, it has been struggling to deal a little more with the substance of education, but for many years that was not the case.
Senator Moore: With regard to the funding, you said earlier that no one has done the roll-up. In all the years that the federal government has been providing funds for the education of First Nations youth, no one has done a totalling? What do you mean by a ``roll-up?''
Mr. Mendelson: Maybe someone has.
Senator Moore: It is hard to believe that in all this time no one has looked at this in an analytical way.
Mr. Mendelson: What I mean is that it is very hard to find national data, either quantitative or qualitative, that is reliable. Maybe they have information I do not have because I deal only with public sources. It is very difficult to find, for example — this is qualitative data — a description of the governance arrangements of First Nations schools, or even to find accurate information as to how many students there are, or to find information as to the amount spent on the schools. All that information is difficult to find.
Senator Moore: I find it difficult to believe there is not an enrolment done every year.
Mr. Mendelson: A nominal roll is done, although finding the total from the nominal roll is not easy, and it is not the same at the end of the year as it is at the beginning of the year. There are bits and pieces of information, but there is not much.
Senator Moore: When you were speaking with Senator Lovelace Nicholas, you mentioned something to the effect that in the past if you sought higher education, you lost your status.
Mr. Mendelson: Yes. That was a long time ago.
Senator Moore: I think she told me in conversation that it was in 1986.
Mr. Mendelson: No, I think it was earlier than that. It was in the 1950s, but it was recent enough that I was alive. We are not totally past this era.
Senator Moore: What I am leading to is the question of whether, if I was a First Nations parent facing that, I would encourage my kids to seek a higher education.
Mr. Mendelson: That is a good question.
Senator Moore: I probably would not in that situation. Has that culture continued among First Nations people, and is that a factor? I find absolutely alarming the number of youth who have not gotten through high school. The role that the parents could play here is critical. How are they being involved to impress them? Have they changed, if I am right in my assumption, in their outlook to encourage the youth to do better?
Have you looked at that? I would think that that would be an integral part.
Mr. Mendelson: Let me give my impression but also say clearly that I cannot speak on behalf of what is really happening on the ground.
This is anecdotal stuff. I was at a meeting, and a young guy there who had just graduated from high school and was in university said he was alone out of his reserve. The reason is that kids do not see the relevance of education and how it helps them. I need to know how to hunt and fish and live off the land, so what am I doing sitting in a school learning trigonometry? Those are tough questions. I am not trying to say that this kind of approach will be a magic solution to everything. It is not. Schools are only a small part of what makes a good education, although they are a necessary part.
Senator Moore: The trigonometry question applies to White kids as well.
Mr. Mendelson: I know. Let me just go on to say what my sense is. I go to meetings and do presentations, so what do I know? However, I have sensed a change in the last 10 or 15 years in that First Nations want to see education as the most important point of improving their lives.
Senator Moore: Are you getting this from parents as well?
Mr. Mendelson: I am not at that level, to be honest with you. I go to meetings and talk to educators and people engaged in the system, so I do not really know. I think that is a good question.
I was involved in the Urban Aboriginal Peoples Study, which was not on-reserve, done by the Environics Institute, which is a non-profit institute. It is not the Environics Group; it is the non-profit arm. A face-to-face survey was done by Aboriginal students. There were hour-long interviews of 250 Aboriginal people in each of 10 cities. It is a very important study that I think this committee might want to look at.
We did not ask people where they lived and how much money they had but what is in their heart, what barriers they have met and what aspirations they have for their children. We asked people what was in their heads and not their pockets. The questionnaire was designed by an Aboriginal advisory committee, not us. The number one answer was education.
I am optimistic in that I think an opportunity is here, but I think if we engage too much in recriminations about the past, we will find ourselves in a stalemate, and I do not want to see a stalemate for another 20 years.
Senator Poirier: I have been made aware that recently B.C. has identified an off-reserve school as an Aboriginal choice school. Could this option be explored?
Mr. Mendelson: Some of my colleagues are not in favour of it, but if a charter school could be set up to function, then so be it. If we can learn something from it, then so be it. If there is some situation where vouchers could work, then so be it. I am not opposed to having a hundred flowers blossom. That is good. I am not sure what is going on in B.C., but it sounds like an interesting innovation. We need innovation, so let us have it. That is great.
I wish we would evaluate some of our innovations so that we could learn from them in a more systematic way.
The Acting Chair: I will pose one question for the record on something that you discuss at page 26. I would like your comments on the current path of reform begun by the federal government in 2008 toward formal partnerships. What is your opinion of this path of reform? Is it going in the right direction?
Mr. Mendelson: I think the initiatives are useful. However, I know that they will not result in systemic change of the system as a whole, which is why I started talking about whole-system reform in the paper. We cannot achieve this by having application-driven processes where one school sends in an application and gets funding for three years for a special project. This will not change the whole system. It might improve one school for three years, if that.
They are useful, but they would be much more useful if they were part of a process of systemic change. There is some negativity toward them. Having said that, I do not know what has happened in the last few years since they were initiated, so I would like to look at their outcomes.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: There has been a lot of mention of these reports on Aboriginal peoples in terms of education, land claims, social issues, et cetera. Has anything become of these reports?
Mr. Mendelson: There has been progress in many areas. Although they are not moving along quickly, land claim agreements have been struck. Some reports result in action, and some do not. I cannot say it in general, but it is important to not allow hopelessness to overcome us. Things are improving.
When I was a student at the University of Manitoba, the only identifiable Aboriginal First Nations student was Mr. Ovide Mercredi. Today, there are 20,000 First Nations students in post-secondary education. That is progress.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: I live in a First Nations community where I see no difference. Thank you.
Senator Raine: Senator Lovelace Nicholas said what you just said: We cannot continue to do what we have been doing. Everyone on this committee is motivated by that. Certainly, it has been great to hear from Mr. Mendelson to know that it is time for a change.
I found your paper to be refreshing and I would like to read from it:
Instead of looking backward, what is needed is a forward-looking strategy that would address funding as part of systemic reform of First Nations on-reserve schools in the future. The method of financing First Nations schools has to change, so that the amounts provided as a result of a renewed process are adequate now and into the future.
A new method of funding would require turning the current financing system upside down as it applies to the `reformed' First Nations school system. Payments to recognized First Nations school boards . . . would become what is known as statutory spending. Statutory spending refers to expenditures that are authorized by a specific law which ``sets out both the purpose of the expenditures and the terms and conditions under which they may be made.'' Statutory expenditures are not approved annually, but instead are paid as required under the terms of their governing statute.
That says it in a nutshell. Without an act of Parliament, we cannot have that, and without that, we are just going to do the same thing we have always done, which is not working. I appreciate this paper and think it is well worth studying. Thank you for being here tonight.
Mr. Mendelson: Thank you for having me and for paying attention to the issue.
The Acting Chair: I note that Budget 2010 released in March made a commitment on the part of the government to work with First Nations groups and other willing partners to develop options, including new legislation, to improve the governance framework and clarify accountability for First Nations elementary and secondary education. Your presentation tonight has been topical. You wanted a dialogue and we had a very good one. I thank you, Mr. Mendelson, and every member of the committee who made worthwhile contributions. It will help us in our work.
(The committee adjourned.)