Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 8 - Evidence - Meeting of June 8, 2010
OTTAWA, Tuesday, June 8, 2010
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 9:30 a.m. to examine the federal government's constitutional, treaty, political and legal responsibilities to First Nations, Inuit and Metis peoples, and other matters generally relating to the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada (topic: issues concerning First Nations Education).
Senator Gerry St. Germain (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: I would like to welcome all honourable senators, members of the public and all viewers across the country who are watching these proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples on CPAC or the World Wide Web. I am Senator Gerry St. Germain from British Columbia. I chair the committee.
The committee is undertaking a study to examine possible strategies for reform concerning First Nations primary and secondary education with a view to improving outcomes. Among other things, the study will focus on tripartite education agreements, governance, delivery structures and possible legislative frameworks.
This morning, the committee has invited witnesses from First Nation education authorities in Quebec.
[Translation]
Our witnesses are members of the First Nations Education Council and the Institut Tshakapesh. Before hearing from them, I would like to introduce to you the committee members in attendance.
[English]
We have Senator Joyce Fairbairn from Alberta; Senator Lillian Dyck from Saskatchewan; Senator Jane Cordy from Nova Scotia, who we welcome to the committee today; Senator Jacques Demers from Quebec; Senator Dennis Patterson from Nunavut; Senator Patrick Brazeau from Quebec; Senator Rose-May Poirier from New Brunswick; and Senator Carolyn Stewart Olsen from New Brunswick.
Members of the committee join me in welcoming our witnesses. From Institut Tshakapesh, we have Denis Vollant, Executive Director and from the First Nations Education Council, we have Lise Bastien, Director.
Once we have heard presentations from the witnesses, we will entertain questions from the senators. I ask senators to keep their questions short and focused to allow time for all members to participate in the dialogue.
Witnesses, we ask you to keep your presentations between five and seven minutes. We are well acquainted with the problems of First Nations education. We are particularly interested in hearing suggestions you may have for solutions to the problems.
[Translation]
We will begin with Mr. Vollant. You have the floor.
[Editor's Note: Mr. Vollant speaks in Innu.]
Denis Vollant, Executive Director, Institut Tshakapesh: Thank you very much. I began my introduction in my language, Innu, which was passed down to me through my mother as it has from generation to generation for the past 10,000 years.
Forty years ago, I was pushed back by the Mounted Police, here, at the entrance to Parliament. Forty years ago! I was pushed back because I wanted to affirm my rights to autonomy, education and health care, the day after the appearance of the white paper in 1970. Today, I am invited to say basically the same thing I wanted to say back then that no one wanted to hear. There were other ways too. We had tried to some extent to force our way in so that the government would hear us. Today I was allowed to enter and appear before you with dignity. Thank you for welcoming me.
We prepared a document, but it has not been translated. This document is in French. Our mother tongue is Innu and our second language is French. We say mainly that education will not provide solutions if we do not address poverty. That is extremely important. No matter what communities are involved, be they Aboriginal or not, poverty undermines education.
In order to respond to the issue of underfunding of educational programs, we have developed a regional plan. There are currently 10 elementary and secondary schools for the Innu Nation. You do not need to do in-depth studies to know that a school, no matter how big it is or how many students go there, cannot provide the same services as another school elsewhere in Canada. Underfunding has forced us to join forces. This structure has already been started, we are working on it. It is going well.
Finally, we have also implemented a computerized system to follow each student from their arrival in elementary school until they graduate from high school. With this automated system, we can combine our efforts to find solutions for girls, for boys, for various age groups, the schools, the community. It is a very important initiative that must be encouraged.
Another problem is staff retention and recruitment. The staff mainly consists of francophones — obviously, people from Quebec — who are not familiar with Aboriginal cultures or know very little about them. They arrive with their values, and often, after a few years, they say that it is not what they had thought. Integration is difficult. It is as difficult for them to integrate Aboriginal culture as it is for the First Nations to integrate the culture of the majority. And here, we are talking just about education. We find the same difficulties in all areas, nursing, police officers, and so on.
We were talking earlier about outdated funding. In fact, the funding formula is as old as my first appearance here 40 years ago.
Since we live in Quebec, we fall under the Department of Education of Quebec. Children, when they start school, speak their mother tongue better than they do French. They are forced to take French as their first-language classes. It is as if those children already spoke French. And yet, we know that in Quebec, there are other programs, second- language classes for anglophones or people from other cultures.
So our children are judged on the acquisition of this first language. Consequently, they are behind right from the start. These delays accumulate and often children think that they are responsible for their own failure, when they have nothing to do with it; it is the system imposing this condition on them as a starting point.
We also talk about doing research in education, when there is none. Research is the sole domain of Indian Affairs and universities. However, we have adequate resources to do research on subjects important to us, such as learning methods.
We were talking this morning about adapted programming. I met an Aboriginal man who had to some extent lost his Aboriginal status, because the church where his parents were registered had burned and the paperwork had been destroyed. This individual, who is Nipissing, told me that he had to do research to recover his identity. His quest was to find his identity.
At school, children learn about the history of Canada and not their own history. They learn about another identity than their own. So it is difficult for them to be proud of their own culture. We will have to develop that curriculum. There is no funding for the development of teaching materials in history, culture and language. Teaching French, English and math is funded, but not culture. These children are not excited about learning these things at school and the subject means nothing to them, because they have no connection to it. What is more, they are being taught about another culture in another language. So it is difficult for these children to access higher education.
The management taken over by the communities in the early 1980s was more administrative in nature. It was not a real assumption of management. We were given the funding, we merely needed to reach an agreement with the province, and the agreements were reached with the Department of Education of Quebec without there being any real takeover of management. And that explains the rather dramatic results.
The table I have before me indicates that one out of two students is enrolled in a school system program to deal with the various issues. This figure is extremely high and the situation is of concern. Approximately 24 per cent of students graduate from high school, we are talking about one out of every four students. The others drop out.
The current school structure is as follows. They are independent schools managed by band councils, and the results are not what we had hoped. The group project may help students to get better results.
Let us take the case of the Pakuashipi school, the last one on the East Coast. There are 70 students at that school. The students need remedial education specialists to help them integrate the regular stream. However, this school has no resources to pay for the services of that kind of specialist. The collaboration project will hire a remedial education specialist or another specialist who will do the rounds of the schools to help all of the students. Currently, these schools are isolated from each other. This is not a long-term solution.
The initiative consists in bringing all the schools together, sharing the financial, material, human and teaching resources. We also note great mobility. Parents move for all kinds of reasons, and children must follow. The curriculum is not identical from one school to the next, and as a result, the levels reached by students differ from one school to the next as well. The children are then destabilized.
It is our responsibility to ensure the curriculum is the same at all levels and we are working on this. Obviously, we do not have any funding to achieve this objective, so it is important to be patient. The project will take a number of years, but we must continue this important work. Also, by using our computerized data base, we can keep track of everyone.
Those are the main points that are important to us and their success depends on adequate funding.
Lise Bastien, Director, First Nations Education Council: My name is Lise Bastien, Director General of the First Nations Education Council. This association represents 22 Aboriginal communities in Quebec, and represents eight nations. You will see that the communities associated with members of our organization differ from each other. There are small and large communities, experiencing very different and unique realities.
I want to thank the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples for having agreed to hear us in its study on the possible directions of the reform of the elementary and secondary school system for First Nations children.
First, I want to talk about our surprise with regard to the use of the word ``reform.'' Educational reform is in fact an assessment for the purpose of very important changes. This is a serious evaluation of an existing system with a common purpose that should guide us. All educational reforms in the provinces of this country have been done through extremely important intermediaries, with the assistance of educational experts. However we do not have the impression that this reform is relying on experts. Perhaps we are still in the preliminary stage. However, we hope that, in the coming weeks and months, educational expertise will be seriously considered.
I will talk a little later about governance structures and service delivery. We only have a short time to address the points that interest you and that are the subject of your hearings. With no further delay I will talk about solutions.
The FNEC has existed for 25 years. You will not be surprised if I tell you that we have had an opportunity on many occasions to reflect and take a position along with our communities on all of the issues concerning the education of First Nations peoples, for the purpose of ensuring scholastic success. We have done this exercise at the regional level, but also in the context of numerous national studies and consultations. I have been with the First Nations Education Council for 25 years. I have taken part in many committees, joint committees with Indian Affairs. I have taken part in a great deal of research, numerous studies, assessments and consultation workshops. As a result, I hope that my comments will be taken by you as based on experience that reflects the reality in the field.
In addition to producing numerous reports, we have, of course, read the many studies that have been done over the past few years.
In our minds, the Government of Canada has never kept its promise to fully support the autonomy of Indian education as adopted in 1972. Its support has been limited to transferring administrative authority, along with all-too- often inadequate funding, and administrative rules that make it difficult to ensure quality management. Issues of compliance, often lead us to have to manage, for example, our schools based on annual plans, which is completely unacceptable, not for the First Nations, but for all Canadians. No other Canadian school in this country has to operate on an annual basis. First and foremost, I think it is important to say that.
In keeping with the recommendations of the 2000 Auditor General's report, the costs for the production of studies and numerous reports with no follow-up concerns us. We believe that the costs of doing nothing are greater.
The FNEC believes that the federal government has never followed up on a multitude — and here I am talking about hundreds — of studies, reports and recommendations that nevertheless were often done at the request of that same government.
Needless to say, I do not want to list all of the reports today, because I would probably not have enough time to do so in one day; but I do think it is important to mention some of the reports that must be taken into consideration. I express the hope that the committee will insist that the time has finally come to take into account the recommendations drawn from the numerous reports that have been produced over the years.
We hear a lot about good governance, good management and the proper use of funds. If the reports that cost Canadians and First Nations peoples thousands and thousands of dollars are completely ignored, then the government is certainly not setting an example in terms of good management and administration. I believe that it is very important to ensure that those reports, which are quite recent and remain totally relevant, be taken into account.
Obviously, I can talk to you about Indian control, but that dates back to 1972. I could also talk to you about the MacPherson report and the Royal Commission report, which is quite substantive. I can also mention studies that were done, for example, the final report of the minister's national working group on education entitled Our Children — Keepers of the Sacred Knowledge, which was led by Minister Nault, the Minister of Indian Affairs at the time. I can also talk to you about the report of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, as well as many other reports.
I would like to draw your attention to a few documents that the First Nations Education Council has produced in recent years. I will leave you with copies in both English and French. I apologize for not bringing sufficient copies of all the reports — there was not enough room in my car — but I do have some copies here with me.
If I still have a few minutes, I would like to talk about governance structures and service delivery.
I think you have talked about finding solutions, obviously, in addition to the recommendations that back up what I have to say here. I would like to address with you possible solutions concerning governance. First and foremost, in order to dispense quality, results-based education, you need to have a real education system, which includes a number of levels. We currently have band schools, band councils and the Department of Indian Affairs. In a provincial education system — I have the chart here somewhere — there is the government, of course, its department, as well as such groups as the Conseil supérieur de l'éducation — I am referring to the Quebec system — school boards, parent associations and schools. There is also support for adult education and professional development. This is not a system that can be improvised. It must be carefully thought out and established to ensure that all chains of command are in place so that quality services can be delivered.
Therefore, a real education system includes schools, which make up the first level; the schools have to be properly funded in order to offer front-line services. You then also need associations, school councils, school boards and officials who will develop programs and standards, monitor the quality and provide schools with pedagogical support. They will also conduct research and do assessments. For example, Denis spoke about this a little earlier, some of our schools do not have network technicians to deal with connectivity issues. Therefore, one solution is to have a number of technicians at the regional level in order to ensure technological service delivery. That is something our organization now does.
Take the example of math education counsellors; do you think that every small school, with between 100 and 300 students, can have its own math counsellor? No. The system I have presented is one that exists in all provinces. You need to have second- or third-level service associations to ensure and support high quality within our schools.
Then there is the government level, whether a band council or other political authority, and the department. Today's Department of Indian Affairs is not an education ministry; it has its own education branch. I am calling on greater consistency in that those who work at the department's education sector should be experts in the field. It is very frustrating when we meet people who work in First Nations education at the department and who have no educational know-how. It is as if we were speaking two very different languages.
Obviously, in addition to elementary and secondary schools, there are also post-secondary institutions, including vocational training and adult education centres, colleges and universities. I think that our First Nations youth deserve high-quality post-secondary institutions. They deserve their own meaningful institutions; institutions that speak to them. As well, all peoples need institutions that reflect their values and make them feel proud. People take pride in their pre-eminent institutions. Preventing a people from having its own educational institutions, for example, clearly shows a disdain for their abilities.
I will end there because I could still go on at some length, but I will await your questions.
The Chair: Thank you, you did a fine job. There are members who would like to ask questions, starting with Senator Brazeau.
Senator Brazeau: I would like to thank our two witnesses for being here with us this morning. Those were very thought-provoking presentations.
You mentioned the fact that Aboriginals need their own institutions, since provincial education systems do not reflect the traditions and needs of Aboriginal students. Immigrants to Quebec, however, must go to French-language school; and if they want to succeed, they have to integrate into the system, pull up their sleeves and work twice as hard to reach their educational objectives. Should the same thing not be true for Aboriginals?
That said, we are all aware that Canada has a jurisdictional problem: Aboriginal people who live on-reserve are subject to federal authority, while those who live off-reserve come under provincial jurisdiction, which also encompasses education. Our study does not cover resources or funding, but you did talk about a lack of funding, and so I would like to know who should pay for education, given the jurisdictional complexities involved?
Before you answer, I would like to ask my second question: What are your views on a system of tripartite agreements between the federal government, Aboriginal communities and provincial governments in order to ensure better educational reform or services in Canada?
Mr. Vollant: First of all, we cannot access our resources; those resources should be used to fund the system. But, as you know, the resources are controlled by the governments, and we can only access an insignificant part of those resources. In order to obtain them, we have to negotiate either through the courts or by way of agreements with the government.
It goes without saying that I am talking about natural and territorial resources.
That is a key element to ensure educational development. The best example I could give is that of my mother. She was born in the woods and acquired all the knowledge needed to sustain her family according to the traditional way of life. When the time came for her to get married and have children, the mining company, forest industry and residential school opened their doors in my region. Those three institutions destroyed the traditional system that had been built up generation through generation. In short, she did not have access to the resources I was talking about earlier in order to carry on that traditional education.
Today, students are taught what they need to know; schools teach know-how, while tradition teaches a way of life. Young Aboriginals could readily integrate into the Quebec system, but they would also need the cultural elements that help to impart a sense of responsibility and integrity, the courage and truthfulness of a people and the pride of an individual. The funding today has dried up, and we cannot access the resources that could help us fund the system.
Ms. Bastien: I would like to come back to the issues of integration, assimilation and immigration. Adapted integration is possible, but it is crucial that our children take pride in who they are. They must also experience their culture and identity, not as a rejection, but rather as a treasure, and they should be able to pass it on.
Immigrants in Quebec are in a completely different situation.
I believe that it is very important that we have our own schools, including our own high schools, colleges and universities. I do not see that as wanting to live in a ghetto, but rather as a way to strengthen the cultural identity of our youth, and in fact, our teachers. Once their sense of identity is well established, our young people can integrate into other communities much more easily. I should point out that non-Indians come into our communities as well as into our schools.
As for funding, the schools today are funded by the federal government. Your question leads us to determine whether the provinces could fund our schools. We all know that the provinces that fund First Nations schools ask the federal government for a transfer of funds, so what is the impact of that? Personally, that is not something I can answer. However, one thing is clear: the funding has to be fair and balanced and of a comparable level to that of Canadian schools.
That said, I would like to take a minute to talk to you about our funding formula. The Government of Canada has committed to revising it, but has yet to do so. We created an expert panel and developed our own formula. You will agree with me that developing such a formula is a rather complex process. Following its development, we called on the Department of Indian Affairs to join with us in establishing an expert panel to assess the formula and see how it could be used in order to create a new funding mechanism for the schools. But that request was flatly turned down. That is unreasonable. I believe that we did serious work. After spending two years on a formula, when 75 per cent of the work has been done, it would be in the department's interest to give serious consideration to our initiative. We recommended a joint expert panel, but it was unfortunately turned down.
With regard to tripartite agreements, I think that the rationale for such agreements is to recognize each party's jurisdiction. First Nations must have jurisdiction over education, just like the provinces claim they have over their citizens. We should assume responsibility for the education of our First Nations members.
Senator Brazeau: The reason I asked the question about integration is because many First Nations schools in Canada are starting to teach Aboriginal languages. My own community has immersion programs. Students even engage in extracurricular activities such as hunting, fishing or trapping, in order to become reaccustomed to Aboriginal traditions. Nevertheless, drop-out rates are still too high, and I am looking for solutions to improve the education system. Some schools in the most remote regions do not stand a chance, that is a fact.
Having said that, is there any partnership or any discussion underway with provincial school boards, not only to educate non-Aboriginals about Aboriginal customs, but also to draw on that tradition in order to improve the overall system?
Mr. Vollant: Let me think. I was in Europe this spring and quite by chance, I picked up a newspaper that said that most European governments were grappling with very high drop-out rates. This is not an Aboriginal nations problem, it exists throughout the world, particularly in industrialized countries. The French government injected a billion euros into fighting the drop-out rate and it has not resulted in anything. It is their system, they have the resources and yet they are not being successful.
For ourselves, we just took over the schools some 50 years ago, whereas the Quebec system has existed for 400 years. We still have a long way to go.
If we controlled the governance of the system, we could do better through programs that better meet the needs of these children, and not the teachers'. I don't think about the teachers, I think about the children, and I think about keeping them in school. The example that you give, when they go out in the field, that produces results. Perhaps the drop-out rate has decreased. I do not know, I do not have your figures. It has certainly helped.
The other component that we must take into account is assessment. We have to measure the data. We are in the process of setting up a computer system whereby each student would be monitored. We will therefore be able to implement corrective measures that target the children. At what age are they having difficulties? Which group has difficulties? In what subject do they have problems? We will be able to target the weaknesses and bring about corrective measures. We are counting on this a great deal. It is part of the solution.
If we find the weak point, we will also have to find a solution. We are still working on that. We are trying to find the weak links in the chain. Now, we will have to develop alternatives to those weak links, and that would include all groups, all schools, all students, for every level and for all types of training. That is a big mandate. It will take several more years before we achieve comparable results.
You must not forget that we are always compared to young Canadians. When the reports are published, those state that such-and-such percentage of young Canadians are successful compared with young Aboriginals. But we know at the outset that there is a big funding gap. I cannot expect the young Aboriginal to have the same results if I do not have the same resources to offer him or her the same services. Canada continues to publish these figures and use these reports.
It makes no sense. People are being asked to produce the same results, but they receive 30 per cent less funding. It is difficult. I am very optimistic with the setting up of the new computer system. In 5 or 10 years' time, we may be able to say, ``Yes, the drop-out rate is slowly going down''.
Ms. Bastien: One solution would be to study an education system that truly would offer comparable services. And, of course, there is the funding. I absolutely must give you the facts. The funding formula currently used for our band schools goes back 22 years. It has never been reviewed. I do not think that as Canadian parents, you would accept sending your children to a school that uses a formula for funding that is 25 years old. A true formula assesses services and costs. Twenty-two years ago, the feeling was: ``We have a given budget, divided by the services required.'' That is totally backwards. This is still the formula that is in use today.
The fact is there is nothing for libraries, and nothing for professional training. In Quebec, we have a unique situation. Part of professional training is offered in secondary school. In the First Nations schools, there is none. In fact, there is no funding for that.
There is nothing for technology. What school in today's world will do without technology? I am not saying there are no computers in our schools. We take the money from elsewhere. It comes from flexible transfer agreements. The formula generates no funding for technology or for sports and leisure.
We recognize that all children do not go to school for mathematics, but in order to do things with their peers, with their friends; sports, recreation, culture, and so on. That is how we keep them. Funding is one way to keep them in school. One must take extraordinary means to deal with an extraordinary situation.
The Chair: Ms. Bastien, you spoke of setting up a structure similar to that of the provinces. How can we do so with the culture? Mr. Vollant spoke about the culture and the language of Aboriginals. How can we set up a system like that one?
The funding is very important. It requires a structure established through legislation. Do you have any comment on the subject?
Ms. Bastien: The structure has already been thought out. It is here, in a five-year plan funded by Minister Prentice, four years ago, to the tune of $150,000. When we wrapped up our consultations and our study on second-level services — which is another part of this major structure — we were told that our work was excellent, but that there was no money.
The Chair: Do you believe that the Province of Quebec would accept such a formula?
Ms. Bastien: Absolutely. We had bipartite discussions with the Ministry of Education. Now, the Canadian government has requested tripartite agreements, so the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs has joined us at the table. Having a robust parallel system does not scare the province at all. I do not want to speak on their behalf, but they have never expressed any fears on the subject. On the contrary, for them, reinforcing our structures will help them to welcome young First Nations students into their system and vice versa. Once again, we do have a few non- Aboriginal students in our communities who attend our schools.
[English]
Senator Sibbeston: Thank you very much. When I hear you talk about your situation, it reminds me very much of the situation in the Northwest Territories, where I am from. In the North, there are no reserves and the government provides education for everybody in the schools. Over time, they have developed local education committees and regional educational boards. Therefore, the education is reasonably good. We have come a long way in the North in the last 20 or 30 years.
In the small communities very similar to yours, we have good schools. We have lots of education materials. A teacher comes in from the South every year and sometimes he or she stays a few years. That is the education system. Facility wise, it is good, but it is hard to say how good the teacher is.
Now kids have access to television, which is kind of good and bad because they can see the world, they are no longer isolated. Everyone has computers and everybody has trucks. Everybody wants to drive a Ford truck; that is everyone's ambition in the North in small communities.
I notice some communities do well. They have lots of graduates from grade 12. In a little community like Jean Marie River, which has just 60 or 70 people, everybody reaches grade 12; in other little communities, no one goes beyond grade 8 or grade 9. Obviously, the parents have a tremendous effect on how the children do and how the education system works. They will insist they have a good teacher and so forth.
I think, certainly in the North, that how successful students are depends on the teacher and the parents. In addition, you have to recognize that children who live in rural areas base their goals on what they see around them. They are obviously not going to be technicians and doctors and whatnot when they do not see their parents or relatives doing that. In a sense, rural areas limit children's goals and we have to recognize that limitation.
You talk about the need for more money. I do not doubt that more money would help, but I am wondering what can be done. Is it just organization and governance that can be improved — a little bit more money that would help a lot? What are the changes that you think would make a real difference, recognizing that Indian Affairs does not have a role other than to supply money? You are a long way from Ottawa and so you really have to do it yourself. Is that the situation you are in?
If you wished for one, two or three things, what would you want that would make a tremendous change in your education system?
[Translation]
Mr. Vollant: In fact, we have one wish, which is shared by both parents and principals of the schools for which we offer services and support; this wish is also shared by the band councils and the political authorities in each of the communities. They gave us the mandate to develop an apolitical regional structure, which I was talking about earlier. If we could transfer the governance to a school organization, regardless of the name it would be given, a school commission, school board or Institut Tshakapesh, which could support this organization, it really would be a step forward. We could have a regional organization responsible for education that could implement all of the school structures, but also have a power to negotiate with the province.
We have already contacted the province, obviously, to approve the curriculum. We know that the Quebec government approves the curriculum. Each student has to obtain a certain number of credits so that the province can give its seal of approval, saying that the student has successfully completed his or her secondary studies. We have sat down with the ministry and told them that soon, it would be the Institut Tshakapesh that will give its seal of approval. This did not surprise the province. I do not think there was an agreement at the outset. They asked us what would be the terms and conditions of this approval, so we will find ways to do so within the tripartite agreement that Senator Brazeau was referring to earlier.
I believe the province is open to this alternative, so as to grant approval to organizations. The Institut Tshakapesh has been in existence for 30 years, it has always supported the schools. It is now taking the additional step in order to oversee the governance of all these schools.
This is a common desire, it is not something I came up with overnight. For three or four years now, we have been working to bring together all of these resources so as to have the political authority to administer education.
[English]
Senator Dyck: Thank you to our presenters this morning for outlining your concerns and some of the solutions that you have offered.
Education is obviously a complex issue. One of the themes that we heard, I think from both of you, is with regard to the underfunding of educational issues and the lack of an appropriate system or structure. Probably the two are related; if you do not have the proper structure in place to govern and to set policy, it is not likely you will have adequate funding.
One of the points raised by Ms. Bastien was something about having to apply annually for funding to support your programs. It seems to me to be an impediment to long-term planning, if every year you have to reapply for funding in order to have the funds to do what you wish to do in the next year.
What would you do if you had in place the structure that you think would fit? Ms. Bastien, you were talking about having a memorandum of understanding with the Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs, but it seems that is not working. You have done a lot of work; you have prepared reports and put forward solutions, but they are not moving.
How do we move those forward? What would you suggest we do? It seems as though your organization has had 25 years worth of experience. You have had experts; you know what you need, yet nothing is getting done. What would move it forward? What would be the structure that would move those solutions forward?
Ms. Bastien: I do not think I have an answer to that. However, I would strongly recommend to your committee that you make strong recommendations about giving some consideration to the work, the studies and the reports that have been done by our organization and other organizations.
The agreement that we signed with Minister Prentice is just one example. It was clear and obvious that we were to look at how the second level services system could be structured to improve our schools. When we finished our work, they said it is good but there is no money for that. It is utopian to think that we can improve the situation without investing new money, it is just impossible. If you ask all the ministries of education in this country, they will tell you the same thing; you cannot hire people if you do not have money.
Senator Dyck: Is the structure you were advocating contained in one of the reports you were holding up?
Ms. Bastien: Yes.
Senator Dyck: What is the title of that report so we are clear as to where to look?
Ms. Bastien: This is the Five-Year Plan for Reinforcing a First Nations Educational System by Implementing Essential Services in Support of the FNEC Communities. This is the report.
Senator Dyck: Thank you. Since the committee is focusing mainly on elementary and secondary education, with regard to the demographics of First Nations populations, what would you say with regard to funding? More and more children are of elementary or secondary school age, so how does that affect the funding situation?
Ms. Bastien: The number of students, of course, increases every year. Even the infrastructure of our schools cannot meet all needs, but you know that. There are many communities in Quebec in which more than 50 per cent of the population is under 18 years of age.
I was referring to a special situation, but I also think it is a tragic situation. It is just impossible to provide these kids not only educational services but also leisure or sports activities so they can do something in their communities other than drugs and alcohol. A community with 50 per cent of kids under the age of 18 will hit a wall soon. I think there will be a scandal soon because something bad will happen if we do not act now. I do not think we have the luxury to wait another five or 10 years.
Senator Cordy: Thank you to both of you for being here today. I agree that we have to act now and it is a tragedy if we do not. Young Aboriginals under the age of 25 years are the fastest growing demographic group in Canada. I sit on another committee studying post-secondary education and we have heard the same concerns. If we do not do something to remedy this situation, then we are doing a disservice to the Aboriginal population and to the country of Canada because we need these young Aboriginal people to be well educated.
Mr. Vollant, you talked about poverty being harmful to education. The Social Affairs Committee did a study on population, and we learned that poverty is a cause of poor health. In fact, if you are in poor health, you are more likely to die early than you are to die early if you had cancer, which was a surprising statistic for me to hear. Indeed, if you are living in poverty, then you are less likely to complete your high school education; you are more likely to drop out.
One quarter of Aboriginal youth are finishing high school. When we look at those numbers, it is incumbent upon us to do something about it. Others have asked what we can do.
I used to be an elementary school teacher, so I understand the importance of education. If you look at the way our country has changed, with the importance of technology and the importance of education and post-secondary education, certainly in order to get there, you have to finish your high school.
If we are eliminating three quarters of the Aboriginal youth who have not finished high school from going on to community college or further training at university, then we are not doing a good job.
One of the witnesses we heard from in the Social Affairs Committee said that we cannot start talking about high school graduation when the students are in high school. We have to start looking at literacy programs and early learning for children.
When I look at some of the statistics that you have provided, such as zero per cent for sports, zero per cent for technology support, zero per cent for professional development for teachers to deal with keeping students in school longer and zero per cent for libraries, which are extremely important, a good starting point would be to provide funding for those areas. However, I go back to the question that Senator Dyck asked: What can this committee do to ensure that things start to happen? You certainly seem to have been doing a lot of work. A large number of reports have been written but unfortunately do not seem to be acted upon. Where do we start as committee members and as senators?
[Translation]
Mr. Vollant: What can we do? That was the theme of one song.
The Chair: I hope you have the answer to that.
Mr. Vollant: Along with my colleague, we have formulated a number of responses, on a number of levels that we presented to several forums, including the United Nations, the government, as well as various departments. We have put forward a number of alternatives that are not being considered. That is something we have noticed.
Ms. Bastien said it again, it looks as though everything we are doing is inadequate. Then why invite us here? It is as though we are considered incapable of reason. However, our culture is several thousand years old. We have gotten to this table, which is not my culture's table, and we are able to have discussions with you as to solutions we can come up with together.
I still have hope, and I believe this hope will never die, that we will someday work together and find solutions. Of course, the ideas that are being proposed, the ones that we are developing have to be considered.
At a national round table on school success I attended, people were saying that school success amounted to obtaining a degree. I disagreed. One of my sons completed his training in cabinet making and carpentry, my other son completed his training as an electrician. Well, it took them some time to find work in their field of study.
Is success conferred through a diploma or does it begin when one can apply the knowledge that has been learned in school?
Education continues all through life. It is an endless process.
Today, I am learning things here. I am learning that a group of individuals, senators, want to find solutions to this problem. I am also learning from Ms. Bastien and everyone says so: we are able to find solutions together. However, we need to be considered as human beings. In my Innu mother tongue, being human means being a person.
Tshakapesh is the name of a legend, about how the world was created. I personally learned another legend about how the world was created. I did not learn the Tshakapesh legend. From now on, I will teach this legend to all children so they may know what their origins are.
Discussions such as this one are taking place. However, the solutions that we are putting forward need to be implemented.
There is always this issue of ``sovereignty.'' Who manages that? Who does it belong to, at the end of the day? But no one ever looks at the children, the children who fail, the 75 per cent who do not succeed. What do these children do? They pass this on to their children. So, the children do not believe in school because their parents failed. It is difficult to set the things back on track. As you said, alternative schools are being proposed to those parents. We offer language courses to those parents. We teach the children in their language; the parents have lost the language for a host of reasons, so we teach them, gradually. We make a great deal of effort. I think we are living on the same planet. There is the issue of funding, but apart from that, there is the issue of believing in our capabilities, in the solutions we are putting forward, the alternatives we are setting up.
I know that environment, I come from it. I quit school, then I came back and now I have a university degree. Currently, I want to stop working in order to go back to university once again. That is my personal path. Many others say, ``I would like that as well, it is interesting.'' It creates a glimmer of hope around myself as it does for all others who have been successful. We are lacking in role models as well. These are the models who should inspire people and shine. Thank you.
[English]
Senator Raine: It is very good of you to be here today. We need to study seriously, what you are telling us.
Mr. Vollant, I do not know where they are exactly but I can imagine that they are remote communities with very small high schools, is that correct?
I know there are bad memories and that bad things came out of the residential school system run by churches across Canada. However, have you looked into the possibility of having a special residential school where your high school students come together and, in their own language, develop the culture further? Hopefully, they are already coming through a system where they learn the language. Then they would start learning French, as well, but the big thing would be to bring them together.
You commented in your opening statement about bringing all the schools together. It struck me that, perhaps, we need a residential system. I know the word has such a poor meaning now, but if you brought the kids together, could they not thrive under the right leadership and the right teaching? Then they would not be isolated for the whole school year, but they would go back and forth more often and staying in touch with their communities. Perhaps, when we go back to their communities, they would help with the schools there, as well.
[Translation]
Mr. Vollant: Indeed, in fact we have 10 schools along the coast, along the North Shore of the St. Lawrence. These are small communities. The large communities are Uashat, my community, and Pessamit. They have 600 students. In the other communities, they have 100 and 150 students respectively in grade school and high school. Because of a lack of funding, these schools will have to shut down their grades 10 and 11. They are obliged to send their students away, that is to the city. But we are now seriously taking into consideration what you have said, to create an area where we could group together those students, either in Uashat, which is the ``big city'' of the nation, or at Pessamit. For those communities where there are only two or three students, we cannot maintain the same services that we could in a larger school. That puts one in mind of the residential schools, but I do not think we have any choice. We are seriously thinking of grouping together those students, who are only two or three per community, so that they can finish their studies. If they stay in their community, the community cannot offer the service.
There are students who wish to become doctors, thanks to Mr. Stanley Vollant — who is not a relative of mine — who opened some doors in faculties of medicine. Many students are registered in different faculties. But if we keep these children in their current schools, they would not have access to higher mathematics and science programs that can open the door to graduate studies.
We will probably be obliged to bring them to the coast, to Uashat or to Pessamit, in order to create a group from several communities and to give them room and board. At the same time as well, there is the issue of transmitting the language and the culture in this program. I do not know if that answers your question.
[English]
Senator Raine: It does and I think that would be a good thing to do. Having the marks to go out to the most senior school would be a motivation for the kids in the smaller communities. You said that 75 per cent of your parents expect their children to graduate, so something obviously has to be done to help them do so. Thank you for that.
Do you offer instruction in language and culture in the early grades, such as grade 1 to grade 5, when children are most likely to learn it? Is that being offered in your communities now?
[Translation]
Mr. Vollant: We have recently developed a language of instruction program — an official program that we will have to have approved by the Minister of Education — in the Innu mother tongue for the first level, from grade 1 to grade 5. The program has been designed. We designed it within our budget; we saved some money from programs here and there and we managed to do it. I am telling you this in all honesty, because it was necessary to do so.
But we do not have the financial resources to develop the material that will support that program. Once again, we will be obliged to make some savings and the implementation of the program will take some time. There is a three- person team, of linguists and academics who are developing the program. We teach it. The other problem we also have, when teaching these programs, is that the non-Aboriginal teachers say to us: what courses and training will we be obliged to cut? For us, it is important. The principal has to choose among the courses, religion, moral instruction and other subjects, like biology. Therefore, we are cutting some courses in order to include the mother tongue instruction program. So we are fighting among ourselves.
[English]
Senator Raine: I know that is a challenge, but a good understanding of your own language is important. The experts say that language is connected to culture, which gives you the knowledge of who you are, and that is the foundation of success. Good luck with that. Thank you very much.
[Translation]
Senator Poirier: Thank you for your presentations and I am pleased to have an opportunity to ask you some questions. In your earlier comments, you said that staff retention in your schools was a challenge. Most of the teachers in your schools are Quebeckers and they find it difficult to adapt to the programs. Certain witnesses have talked to us about the importance of teaching and maintaining culture in your First Nations schools. You also said that your students learn about Canadian history but not necessarily the history of First Nations culture.
To my knowledge, the federal government provides financial resources to the First Nations, which in turn have the responsibility of establishing their own education system. Do you feel that you have the required human resources within the First Nations community in order to teach Aboriginal culture, to the point where you will not need to recruit external teachers?
Does your system have to be approved before being taught in your schools? Are you authorized to approve a system to teach culture within the First Nations?
Mr. Vollant: I am going to answer your second question. Course approval is done at a higher level and programs that we want to teach must be approved. In order to obtain approval, you need to have a certain number of credits. If you teach language, how many credits is that worth? Language has to be given credits throughout the entire school program. A certain authorization has to be obtained.
There is a very high teacher turnover. Last year, 30 per cent of the teachers left us as did 50 per cent of the school principals; 5 out of 10 principals left us. It is an ongoing battle every year to find human resources who are not necessarily Aboriginal, for the simple reason that there are not any.
We have created a new scholarship program. We give attractive scholarships to Aboriginal students who want to go into teaching. Every year, upon completion of 30 credits, the students are given a scholarship to enable them to pursue their studies in order to increase the number of graduates. This year, the first cohort had four graduates. So we will keep them, and four or five others are already enrolled for the second cohort. This is an attractive option for Aboriginal students. We did some research with an anthropologist, Pierre Lepage, who said that non-Aboriginal teachers should also take a university course on the history of the First Nations. We are in the process of developing something with the universities so that students in education can, at the very least, have a rudimentary knowledge of the general history of the First Nations in Canada, in Quebec, and perhaps a more specific focus on the community where they will be working. We are hoping that the universities will take responsibility for providing such training. The course may be worth only three or six credits, but that does not matter; it is important that the students know what to expect when they arrive in our communities. At present, some find this to be a really significant challenge. They are unable to acclimatize and understand the communities. So they only stay one or two years.
Salaries are also an important aspect. We are unable to provide the same salary range found in the school boards that are, however, located close to the region. In Sept-Îles, the school board offers a certain salary range that is a bit higher than what we offer in certain regions. So the teacher with his or her bachelor's degree who wants to work often takes a look at the salary and joins the francophone or anglophone school boards.
Senator Poirier: When we speak of culture, we are not merely speaking about language. Culture is more than language. What is the percentage of First Nation students that do post-secondary studies in education and who come back as teachers for the First Nations?
Is training available now at the university for teachers who are not from the First Nations? If so, what is the percentage of teachers who take advantage of it? If not, where are you now in this process?
Mr. Vollant: A hundred per cent of the Aboriginal students who study education come back to the communities.
Senator Poirier: I see.
Mr. Vollant: There are not many, but they all come back. Currently, there is no education program in the universities or the CEGEPs that would allow one to earn credits toward a diploma for non-Aboriginals or even for Aboriginals as well. In fact, they are all taking the same program.
Senator Poirier: Has the procedure begun?
Mr. Vollant: It has begun. A first study has been done. The need has been identified; the teachers said that three or six university credits would be needed to enable them to become familiar with the history or the culture in which they want to work, and to know the environment. We will have to sit down with some universities to develop the program. The material is there, but we have to put a little pressure on the universities.
[English]
The Chair: Senators, are there any further questions?
[Translation]
Mr. Vollant, Ms. Bastien, I thank you for being here. You made a fine presentation.
[English]
Senator Fairbairn: I have been listening quietly because of all the good questions that have been answered. We talk about life-long learning and the kind of thing you are doing with that — which in your part of our world is a very important one to do, as it is in every other part as well in terms of learning.
Have the people who are teaching these life-long learning organizations been given some special and continuing lessons themselves to be able to hand out, at every level of age, from the little to the top? Are there colleges or special institutions that are vigorously teaching life-long learning so that it can be spread further?
Ms. Bastien: Are you referring to First Nations teachers at the elementary and high school level?
Senator Fairbairn: Even beyond that; even with adults.
Ms. Bastien: There is no specific program at the college or university. There is only the baccalaureate, the master's degree for teachers; that is it. I do not know of a specific program that prepares teachers to cope with the type of situation you are describing.
Senator Fairbairn: With respect to life-long learning, it would be helpful if there were a vigorous program available. That could easily be accomplished by federal and provincial organizations in order to help get that into schools in a very vigorous way.
Ms. Bastien: With respect to the teacher situation in our schools, it is important to mention that we are obliged under the agreement we have with Indian Affairs to comply with the standards of the province. That means that First Nations in Quebec must comply with the same standards when the time comes to hire teachers, which means the teachers must be certified. I am not saying that is not good, but the problem is, we have difficulty getting certified people to come into the communities. First, we do not have the financial capacity to pay the same salaries they could receive elsewhere. In addition, you can understand that for these, I would say strangers, coming into isolated communities, they do not receive much stimulus. Housing is a problem. Two or three teachers must live in the same apartment, and they are complete strangers to each other. It is not a very attractive offer. However, this is one of the rules we have to comply with.
What we are saying is that we would like our own standards. That does not mean the standards should be less than elsewhere. For example, in our schools that have many special education problems, I think we should have more than a teacher with a bachelor's degree. We should also have a component wherein the teacher should have the capacity to deal with special education kids. They are not well-prepared for dealing with situations that arise with only a four-year university degree.
Senator Fairbairn: It would be helpful if you did have a continuing literacy organization that could help produce that on different levels. I wish that could happen.
Ms. Bastien: Yes.
The Chair: I would like to thank the witnesses again, Mr. Vollant and Ms. Bastien.
Thank you, senators, for participating. If there is no other business, we will adjourn until tomorrow night.
(The committee adjourned.)