Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 15 - Evidence - November 24, 2010
OTTAWA, Wednesday, November 24, 2010
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:47 p.m. to examine the federal government's constitutional, treaty, political and legal responsibilities to First Nations, Inuit and Metis peoples, and other matters generally relating to the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada (topic: issues concerning First Nations education).
Senator Gerry St. Germain (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, I will call the meeting to order.
I would like to welcome all honourable senators and members of the public who are watching this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples on CPAC or on the web.
I am Gerry St. Germain, from the province of British Columbia, originally from Manitoba, and I have the honour of chairing this committee.
Before hearing the testimony of our witnesses this evening, I would like to take this opportunity to express, on behalf of the committee, our deep sadness at the passing of Noah Augustine, former chief of the Metepenagiag First Nation. Chief Augustine served as President of the Union of New Brunswick Indians and Co-chair of the Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs. He appeared before this committee in those capacities and was a passionate supporter of his people's cause. Our hearts go out to his family and friends at this time of loss. We hope that they find strength and consolation by remembering and honouring who he was and what he stood for.
In our own way, the committee will honour his memory by carrying on this evening with our important work on behalf of our constituency, the Aboriginal peoples of Canada. Those who have been following the work of the committee are aware that we have undertaken a study to examine possible strategies for reform concerning First Nations primary and secondary education, with a view to improving outcomes. Among other things, the study is focused on the following: Tripartite education agreements and partnerships; governance and delivery structures; and possible legislative frameworks.
To assist the committee in its exploration of this subject this evening, we welcome Chief Gilbert Whiteduck of Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg First Nation. The Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg First Nation is located just outside the municipality of Maniwaki, Quebec, covering approximately 8,437 hectares. The Kitigan Zibi is the largest Algonquin Nation in Canada, in both area and population, with almost 2,600 community members.
The Kitigan Zibi First Nation manages and operates an elementary school and a high school in the community. The Kitigan Zibi School was the first on reserve school in Canada to be constructed and controlled by the community with key administrative positions, such as the director of education and principal, filled by qualified First Nations members.
The school opened in 1980 as an elementary school and by 1985, the program extended to Grade 11, which is the final year of high school in Quebec. A gymnasium and library were also later added to the original school building. In these early years, the majority of the teachers were non-First Nations, with many First Nations members working as classroom assistants. Today, the school is a community controlled school, from junior K to grade 11, and the school offers its own diploma negotiated as an equivalent to the Quebec diploma.
Our witness, Chief Whiteduck, was formerly the education director of the Kitigan Zibi Educational Council, and president of the First Nations Confederacy of Cultural Education Centres. He has been in the field of First Nations education for over 30 years. During this period he has held many roles, including guidance counsellor, teacher, principal and director of education. He has served for over 12 years as an elected councillor on Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg Band Council.
Mr. Whiteduck sits on many local, regional and national committee boards. He holds an honours bachelor's degree in social science work, a bachelor of education degree, a master's of education degree and an honorary doctorate degree in the field of education.
[Translation]
Before giving the floor to the witness, I would like to indroduce those Committee members here today.
[English]
We have Senator Lovelace Nicholas from the province of New Brunswick; Senator Dallaire from the province of Quebec; Senator Patrick Brazeau from the province of Quebec; Senator Nancy Greene Raine from British Columbia; Senator Carolyn Stewart Olsen from New Brunswick; Senator Rose-May Poirier from New Brunswick; and last but not least, Senator Patterson from Nunavut.
Welcome Chief Whiteduck. You have a presentation. We would ask you to keep it fairly concise and precise.
Colleagues, we will hear the witness and immediately after that we will go in camera to, hopefully, finalize the draft on the report in regard to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. We will allocate one hour for the presentation.
Sir, you have the floor.
Gilbert W. Whiteduck, Chief, Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg First Nation: Good evening to everyone. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to be here this evening on what I believe to be one of the most important issues in our First Nations communities, and that is education.
I am accompanied this evening by some young people from our community who are at the post-secondary level. They are graduates of our own school. We also have community members who have come to listen this evening and there are people from the AFN.
I am really proud of these young people, whom I believe to be the future of the community and will really having an impact in Canada. For them to be here this evening to see democracy, I suppose, at work, how the process works and hopefully to see things move forward, is a great opportunity.
As was mentioned, I have been involved in education at the community level all my life, literally. I was elected chief of the community in 2008 and got re-elected in 2010. I have made education one the priorities in our community because I believe in it.
I often say that with all of my experience and educational background I think I know a little bit about what I am talking about. I have lived it, I have seen it, I breathe it and I believe in it.
I want to add also that I am a father of four. All four of my children graduated from our community school. I now have three grandchildren, two of whom are in the preschool program, where the Algonquin language is being taught. That too is a very important aspect.
It was mentioned that our school is one of only two or three in Canada that issued their own high school diploma, which is unusual in Quebec because normally you would need to go through the ministry of education. We do not. In 1985, we negotiated with CEGEPs and community colleges and our diploma was recognized. Since that time, our young people who leave our high school are indeed prepared. There is no transition. As long as they put in the effort they can be successful. For us that was one small step to assert our autonomy in controlling our own education.
I must say we were not reinventing chemistry or physics or anything like that, but we were able to incorporate in our curriculum some very important aspects about our culture and our language. Our elders were brought into the school. All these aspects, I believe, made our students much stronger.
As you are probably all aware, and I hope you are, the basis of all of this discussion around First Nations education really came out of the Indian Control of Indian Education policy paper. If you have not read it yet, I encourage you to do so. Back in 1972, when it was adopted, it became the framework of what was to come in the future.
As you probably also know, it emerged from the red paper that came out because of the white paper. The red paper came out of Alberta and laid out that education was going to be the key to assisting First Nations to get out of poverty. The 1969 white paper, as you probably know, came out of the Hawthorn report in 1967. These are all steps that led to First Nations saying that we want to control our own education.
Back at the last AFN annual general assembly, the updated version of Indian Control of Indian Education, now called First Nations Control of First Nations Education, was tabled and approved by the chiefs as being a framework. It is not definitive, but it is a framework to move forward in First Nations control of our own education.
There have been many reports, as we well know, and I brought some this evening. I could have brought stacks of reports. Very often these reports were looking at what was not working, and that is fine, but I would argue that there are many things that are working well in First Nations education. We have a lot of cause to celebrate and we forget that. Is the glass half empty or half full? For us, the glass is half full.
There are many other things to do and much work to be done. Some communities are struggling more than others, but there are indeed great successes and these young people with me here are a fine example of that, and there have been many others.
We often hear, in the news and from different people making comments, it appears that the provincial system is superior to anything First Nations can do. I often say that, yes, we have things to learn from the provincial ministries of education, but I have learned often that what we learned from them is what not to do. Very often they are not as successful as we think they are, especially when it comes to First Nations students.
Since Indian Control in 1973, we have developed expertise. In our schools in Kitigan Zibi 98 per cent of our staff are First Nations. They are Anishinabeg. Many of them hold a master's degree, and many of them have gone to get additional qualifications. We have a very highly qualified staff and when we compare that to what is available in the provincial system we far surpass it.
Quebec tries to safeguard their language, culture and values. Why should we be expected to accept anything less than to safeguard our language, culture and values to ensure that they are transmitted on the Anishinabe territory, on which this Parliament is built? We are trying to prepare our young people to go anywhere in the world feeling good.
This evening I will take a few moments to bring some very concrete recommendations to the table that I believe must be acted upon.
I believe that the Government of Canada must reconfirm that First Nations have the right to control their own education systems.
The Government of Canada must acknowledge and support the approach by First Nations to have their education system delivered in their mother tongue, if they so wish.
The Government of Canada must respectfully and strategically, with no hidden agendas, collaborate with First Nations to help improve outcomes while maximizing available dollars.
The Government of Canada, with the full collaboration of First Nations, must examine the existing funding formulas to reveal the gaps. Much work has been done in this area and, therefore, I think there could be a quick resolution. Some would argue that until we are able to show that the money is indeed being spent appropriately, nothing should take place. That is a farce. Everything has to be looked at and considered, but let us not use that as an excuse not to do anything.
The Government of Canada must work with First Nations to ensure that all First Nations children can attend a school that is safe and comfy. This makes me think of ``Shannon's Dream.'' Shannon talked about having a comfy school where young people could feel safe and happy.
The Government of Canada must maintain and enhance the Post-Secondary Student Support Program. This program must remain controlled at the community level but should become a targeted program. A new management regime for transparency and accountability needs to be established at all levels.
The Government of Canada must support efforts to establish second- and third-level services to support the school systems.
The Government of Canada must acknowledge and continue to support the positive work of cultural education centres as the key piece of the education environment.
I believe that the Government of Canada, with the full collaboration and eventual approval of First Nations, should, over the next two years — not ten years, not five years but within the next two years — work on the development of a First Nations education act and make it a model for the world.
First Nations, as well as the federal government, should provide a detailed report of results achieved every year. We need to be accountable to our citizens, and the government needs to be accountable to the citizens it represents, so we need to find a way to produce this accountability on line. There is much work to be done, but our community, and I believe all First Nations, are prepared to ensure that, but we need capacity and tools in order to do that. There needs to be a report card to show whether we are achieving what we set out to achieve or are stuck the mud. Hopefully we are not stuck in the mud and we are moving forward.
Finally, I believe that our collective focus must be on the First Nation learners. This must be the centre of all our efforts. Bickering over things will not address the learners, that is, the young people who must be given every opportunity in schools that are safe and comfy with programs that meet the needs of the community.
There is an idea that tripartite agreements between the provinces and First Nations is the panacea. It is not. Tripartite agreements will not make that happen. Communities must develop relationships and partner with school boards. That has to happen on the ground, not at the upper levels, because education takes place in the classroom.
Education also takes place in the home. We believe that parents have a very important role in the education of their children. We notice that when parents support their children they are more successful, but there are many other issues around the family process that we need to work on.
In conclusion, education is the key to pull us out of poverty, to ensure that we can move forward, that young people will know their language and feel good about themselves anywhere in the world. We are often asked whether we hope that our young people will come back to the community. I respond that I would like them to come back if they so wish, but if they go out into the world and share their culture, language and knowledge, it will enrich all of Canada. That is what it is all about. They can decide where to live and work as the Indian Control of Indian Education policy paper said. We are not trying to keep them in one spot but to give them freedom of choice.
The Chair: What percentage of students graduate from your high school?
Mr. Whiteduck: I will give you some context. Until we took control of the school in 1980 and eventually had our first graduates in 1985, the dropout rate at the local high school was in the neighbourhood of 70 to 90 per cent. When I graduated from my class, I was the only graduate who was going on to college. Now 30 to 35 per cent of the students drop out or leave the system. As occurs in the mainstream, often these are young men who are looking for other opportunities. Vocational training is one of those opportunities. There is employment in those areas, but there is the issue of funding to get that training.
[Translation]
Senator Dallaire: There is no doubt that your basic argument of education being absolutely essential for the betterment of your people should be fully understood in Quebec. In fact, the nationalist movement was fuelled by schools, teachers and the education system as a whole.
Do you feel that the arrangements in place since 1985 have shown that the Quebec government is more attentive than other provinces to your needs as a nation and a people?
Mr. Whiteduck: You raise a valid point. Indeed, the Government has shown more openness in some areas, most significantly at the CEGEP level.
[English]
CEGEPs need to take action to ensure that the system is more welcoming to the students and that there is more support. It is an interesting question, because very often it is not at the government level where these things take place; it is at the local level, the one-on-one relationships. Over the years, our community has developed that relationship with the CEGEP here in Gatineau. As a matter of fact, because of my involvement in a number of things at the CEGEP, I ended up being a president of the college board. It was the first time that a First Nations person was elected to a college board in Quebec. That gave me huge insight, as did my relationship with Algonquin College. Years ago, I was on the board of governors, and that gave me a new insight into the machinery.
Returning to Quebec, sometimes there is an understanding, but Quebec is very stingy in wanting to control education. They view it as belonging in the realm of provincial jurisdiction rather than the federal jurisdiction. We are arguing that we can have a working relationship with school boards and the ministry at the same time as maintaining our autonomy. I call those bilateral agreements, business agreements, and I believe those can happen.
In various First Nations in Quebec students sometimes end up in high schools in the provincial system. We need to ensure that when they are moving in and out of systems they are properly prepared so that they do not have to repeat a year.
Senator Dallaire: In the schools in your area the students learn their native tongue. Do they also learn English and French, or are they limited to just English or just French?
Mr. Whiteduck: In our school system, the four-year-olds and five-year-olds do half of their day in Algonquin and the other half in English. When they get to Grade 1, they have French as a second subject, and everything else is taught in English. They have a 30-minute-a-day core program in Algonquin. Those students who want to go into the immersion program can spend afternoons in an Algonquin environment learning their language. Parents can make that decision.
I want to note something important and unique in our school. Parents in our community have the choice to decide whether to send their children to Kitigan Zibi or to the provincial system. Some still send their kids to town, as we call it; some send them to the English or to the French school. We believe that is a parental right. We allow them to do that. It is up to us to provide a better program. We have allowed parents to decide.
Sometimes that has funding implications because when students go to the town, the tuition dollars go with them and that reduces what we can do in the school. Again, we leave it up to the parents because we believe the parents are the ones to determine what is best for their child.
Senator Dallaire: We have seen examples of treaty arrangements where the federal government built a school, and they have never put a cent into maintaining it. The school is 20 or 30 years old and is totally ineffective because there has been no continuum.
You created or built your own school and are maintaining it to the appropriate standard and are sustaining that effort. How is your methodology being perceived by the rest of the First Nations in the province of Quebec, where I know there are some pretty difficult cases?
Mr. Whiteduck: One of the important areas to us was our financial management — that is, how we managed our dollars and saved for a rainy day. If there were repairs or we had to buy new computers we tried to find ways to save money to use it. We did not spend it all. We knew that sometimes we were making tough decisions. Good financial management was important, as was negotiating appropriate dollars and feeling pride about your school. You want to maintain it. Kids go there every day. You want it to be comfy. We often invested more money than we were getting to maintain it. This year, however, through federal government initiative, after 30 years, there has been an injection of $2 million to bring the school system back up to standard.
We worked hard to have a library. We get no money for libraries. We said that made no sense. We need books to encourage young people to read and to explore. We do that by paying our teachers less. They are not paid at the same level. We have our own pay scales; they are paid less than the Quebec system. We put that money back into the school system, in libraries, in having additional support workers and in activities for young people. The community and the staff have accepted that. It can be challenging at times to recruit staff that will stay, but overall people have stayed. It is sound management, or as good as we can have sound management, a clear vision of where you want to go and questioning yourself when things are not working well. The parents and the community question us. In a way, the parents keep us in check when we are not successful or they feel not preparing their children for a quality education.
We think we are delivering a quality education. Given additional resources, we could go beyond what we are doing now.
Senator Brazeau: First, for the record, I have to give credit where credit is due. I think you should be commended, Chief Whiteduck, for the work that you have done in Kitigan Zibi on the issue of education. I think that what you have done certainly is a success story. In all my travels, I always use the education system in Kitigan Zibi as a model for other communities to look at. The Algonquin language is being taught; the students are being exposed to many of the cultural activities; there are more graduation rates and we have more of our citizens in post-secondary schools. You mentioned that sometimes we always look at the negative but there are some positive things happening.
You talked about control of First Nations education. I certainly do not dispute that. However, we live in the reality — and I have asked this of other witnesses as well — of section 91.24 of the Constitution Act, which states that the federal government has jurisdiction for Indians living on reserve. On the other hand, education is a provincial matter. We can debate and argue until the cows come home on First Nations control of education, but we still live within these realities. It is not just on Aboriginal issues but on every other issue. We do not have to talk just about constitutional issues.
In your opinion, how do we forge a better relationship to get to that point? Again, we have the jurisdiction of the federal government and the provincial jurisdiction of education. How do we reconcile all of that so that we reach the target?
Mr. Whiteduck: No doubt we can have a lengthy discussion and an interesting one about the constitutional division of powers and whatnot. However, for all of the years that the provincial education system was receiving our students, and for which they were receiving millions of dollars because the tuition was being paid for by the Department of Indian Affairs, they made no effort whatsoever to make those provincial systems accountable for the monies that they were receiving. I have proof to back this, because I was around at the time. I can give concrete examples.
Students who were brought into the school in September were often dismissed or kicked out around October or November for all kinds of reasons. The school board would still get the full tuition for the year because September 30 was the cut-off point. If you were there October 1, you got the money for the whole year. Take as an example a class of 20 students. Eight of them are Algonquin. All of a sudden, four, five, depending on the number, are asked to leave. Who is now getting the bulk of the attention from that teacher? It is the non-native students. For me, the provincial system has never given us anything. It has never given us the tools. No one worried about it. The only time we started to become more successful was when we gained control.
Today we have relationships with boards. We talk to them. We have a tuition fee agreement with them. The Western Quebec School Board might have been one of the first in Canada where we had a mutual agreement that if we have students from the community going to a provincial school, we pay the tuition. If the First Nations student is living in Maniwaki and attending our school, then they will give us the tuition. There is that kind of respect, and we have an agreement that confirms that arrangement. Those relationships are more important than trying to get these older encompassing agreements. It is on the ground and meaningful, with important outcomes. I realize that the broader constitutional territorial issues will get resolved at one point, but probably not in my lifetime. In the meantime, this is making things happen on a day-to-day basis that will come to impact on students in a positive manner while these other things are being discussed.
Senator Brazeau: Thank you for that. I would not say that I totally agree with you that the provincial schools have never brought Aboriginal people anything. You went through the provincial school and have become successful, as have a lot of other First Nations people. I sort of disagree with you on that.
My second question deals with what the government of the day has been doing on education. For instance, in the last couple of years, the Conservatives ordered an internal review of INAC to look at ways and means to ensure that the funding that is there for education is being spent better in some of the First Nations communities that are unaccountable and within the department as well.
At the same time, the government of the day has also looked at the possibility of signing tripartite agreements with provincial governments and willing First Nations communities on education. This Senate committee is studying education K to 12 and another Senate committee is looking at post-secondary education with a specific and special focus on Aboriginal students. There has been quite a bit of movement with respect to education.
A couple of weeks ago, I was driving through a community and saw a billboard.
The billboard said that Conservative government policies continue to fail First Nations students.
On it there is a picture of the Prime Minister, Lawrence Cannon, who is the member of Parliament for Pontiac, and the Minister of Indian Affairs.
I think it would be safe to say that all senators sitting around this table, whether Conservative or Liberal, would agree that past governments in some instances did fail or did not do as much as could have been done on education.
Could you please share one policy of the federal Conservative government since 2006 that has failed First Nations students?
Mr. Whiteduck: Let me go back to your comments where you were saying you do not necessarily agree with everything I am saying and pointing out that I myself am a graduate of the school system. Let me tell you something: When I was in that school system, I was being told that there would be no way that Gilbert Whiteduck, a young teenager in high school, would ever make it beyond high school. The Indian Affairs bureaucrat used to drop in four times a year, and I would be pulled out the class — I was in Grade 9 or 10 — and told, ``You know what, Gilbert, do not think of going on the post-secondary. At best, your father worked in the bush all of his life, maybe you could stick around Maniwaki.''
I always remembered something: I said, whatever I do in my life will be in spite of you. I told that individual, some day I will be sitting in your chair. I was being cocky at the time. I did not know what I was saying.
A short time later I was doing student counselling, and it was in spite of the system. The racism I encountered and my friends encountered made it difficult. I fought it. What I have achieved is because I fought. What we have achieved in our community is because our community has fought.
In regard to the policies or programs, I would say that many of the programs, the new initiatives that have been brought forward, which are viewed as targeted funding programs, have had no impact at the community level. No impact.
Getting $30,000 at the community level is not sustainable. You cannot plan. Strategic planning is very important in the long term. We have sought clarification and made requests of senior management at Indian Affairs. As recently as a few months ago we asked: What are you doing with elementary/secondary education? What can we do to help? Where are the gaps and problems? Where are you going? Can you not tell us? Is there a new policy or an old one that you are planning to apply? No one wanted to talk. Here we were, willing to engage, willing to find solutions, willing to maximize the dollars, fully willing. The partners on the other side did not have the same willingness.
Targeted programs, announcements of two years of funding, $10 million for that does not help develop an education system. We run more than just the school. We are supposed to be running an education system, which means you have the school level, secondary and third level services. All of that, in my mind, is where it has failed. It has failed in the sense that the funding approvals and the policies tied to it did not support opportunities for First Nations to be successful in developing a system.
Senator Brazeau: Again, I thank you for that as well. However, those policies have been in existence for decades, in terms of funding arrangements.
If you have a billboard like this, which says that Conservative government policies fail students, to me that is fear mongering. If you look back in history, it was the former Liberal government in 1997 that imposed the 2 per cent funding cap.
For the record, I am stating that I have never seen a billboard that reflected the policies of the former government before 2006. Given everything that I cited with respect to what we are trying to do, you still have not told us what specific policy of the government of the day is failing students.
Mr. Whiteduck: You can be as partisan as you want, Senator Brazeau.
Senator Brazeau: It is a fair question.
Mr. Whiteduck: Your focus may be on politics. My focus, and the focus of the community, is the young people. That is who comes first for us. If you are worried about the sign, then maybe you need to do something about it. You obviously do not understand the message. We are going to be talking frankly. The kinds of statements that you continue to make are the kind of fear mongering, misleading statements that are being made to Canadians.
You have an opportunity, senator, to make a difference. You have an opportunity at this table and elsewhere, but you have been failing to take that opportunity. That is unfortunate. You do what you have to do. We do what we have to do.
Some Hon. Senators: Hear, hear.
The Chair: Colleagues, I do not think this is appropriate. we do not have applause in committees. I can understand there is an emotional factor that runs with this issue. I would ask people to refrain from participating in this manner.
If you want to be on the second round, that is fine. We are here to try to solve a problem. I do not want this committee to get, in any way, into any personal views from one side or the other. I want this meeting to be conducted in a manner that is constructive to the mandate before us.
I would hope, as the chair, that all in this room will cooperate with my request.
Senator Patterson: I would like to say that I am a relatively new senator. I happen to be a Conservative senator. I value participating in this committee because we do not work on a partisan basis in this committee. I cherish that, and it is a tradition we have in Nunavut, which I represent in the Senate.
Chief you have given a very clear, straightforward presentation. We have heard from many witnesses, and I want to thank you for your clarity.
You mentioned parents and the importance of support at home. I wonder if you could tell us a bit about what you have done to work with parents and to encourage good attendance, and your successes in the reduction of the dropout rate. That is something we have to look at.
Mr. Whiteduck: That is an important question, because at the heart of what goes on in the school are the parents.
Over the years there have been a variety of the activities with parents or activities within the school that brought the parents into the school. The idea is to get parents feeling comfortable in an institution. Many parents who have attended provincial schools or came out of residential schools did not feel good about going into institutions, even into our own.
Having our own Algonquin teachers working in the school, our own Algonquin administrators overlooking what was going on developed that sense of feeling fairly comfortable about coming into the school, even when things are difficult. Again, there were numerous activities taking place at the school, from report card nights to flyers going door to door in the community keeping people informed.
That is not to say there are not challenges. There are still challenges with families who find it difficult to come to the school. Our teachers are our front-line people. Those are the people who need to be applauded, because they continue to try to make contact. When you live in a community, wherever you go you bump into these parents and share, exchange with them and encourage them.
From the get-go, and still today, we try to instil a strong feeling of how important education is in allowing people to fulfill where they want to go. Wherever and however we can do it, we talk about it, we bring it forward, we encourage and we celebrate. When our graduates are getting ready to go on to post-secondary we celebrate their successes. That is important too.
I know I am repeating myself. Very often we try to dump on the negative. I have seen so many graduations since 1985. Many of those young people now, along with their parents, are coming back and taking over senior administrative jobs. They are well trained and feel confident about themselves.
What I have noticed is that, collectively, the community as a whole, has balanced young people.
Again, that is not to say there are no problems, but I feel good when I see young people balanced in their professional lives and their personal lives and contributing. They are feeling that there is hope and things can go forward. Again, some parents encounter more difficulty than others, and that is where the community has to be there to provide support, when required.
Senator Patterson: I presume your teachers are working for less than the provincial standard, and we know about the funding formula. We heard this before. Other witnesses have said they cannot attract their own people because of that. You must be instilling a great esprit de corps or sense of ownership.
I want to ask you about the funding formula. One of your recommendations was full examination of the funding formula to examine the gaps. You said everything has to show and it cannot be a farce. Could you elaborate on what we need to do to have a full examination of that issue?
Mr. Whiteduck: I have a couple of directions in response. The First Nations Education Council in Quebec and the Assembly of First Nations have looked at a formula, made a competitive analysis, compared it region by region and come up with figures. At the special chief's assembly last December, when Minister Strahl came and I was asked to speak on behalf of the chiefs, in asking him to address this issue, I was saying let us sit down together, get your best minds, we will get our best minds, look at it and really get to the nuts and bolts of this so we have a common understanding and can use the money in the best way. If there is a shortfall, we can both agree and recognize what it is. We believe the shortfall is in libraries, technologies, special education and First Nations languages, but we said let us give ourselves a six-month timeframe to examine it. We believed we could do it. I believe that the federal government and First Nations want the same thing, and that is more positive outcomes, increased outcomes. How do we better use the dollars? If there is a gap, let us fill it, and let us do it together. Do not impose it. There are solutions. The window of opportunity is there. I believe it is there. However, when we meet with bureaucrats, like I said earlier, who do not want to engage with us, then what do we do as First Nations? Sometimes we end up putting up signs because we do not know what else to do. We do not know what else to do because we are not moving.
Senator Patterson: We get frustrated with the bureaucrats sometimes too, I can tell you, from where we sit.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: I would also like to congratulate you on your success rate. Is your community in a remote area or a populated area?
Mr. Whiteduck: We are only about an hour and a half from Ottawa. We are near a town of about 4,000.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: As students graduate in their fields, can they easily get a job in their field, either in your community or outside the community?
Mr. Whiteduck: Most can. It is really up to them. Education gives you the tools, and then it is up to you how you use those tools. Most people will find employment here in Ottawa, but others go elsewhere across Canada. The community is limited. That is a good question, because most of the teaching positions and the positions at the health centre, the nurses, are our own people who have graduated and come back. We are kind of saturated. It is only when there are retirements that certain positions become available. We are at the limit.
We also encourage economic development. We are hoping young people will get that kind of training and come back to the community to set up businesses, because we believe we would rather be as independent as possible, and economic development is one means. Education is one step towards getting you there.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: It is different in New Brunswick, because we are in a remote area. As a student graduates, of course they want to come back into the community and do the best they can for their people. As you said, there are not enough resources, and there are not enough jobs in the communities. As they graduate in their field, for example, a doctor, many times they will not be hired on because of racism, and other times it is because they have to travel so far just to get a job. Most of the time they do not get jobs, no matter how educated they are. I feel that is one gap we have to fill.
Mr. Whiteduck: In my travels in Quebec in particular to visit First Nations, I often see the challenges they have in regard to capacity of management, and other challenges. Most communities in Quebec have a very high birth rate. We do not. We have kind of leveled out. We have, like all of society, an aging population. In other communities, the number of children in the families is really huge and the schools cannot keep up with the demands and the infrastructure cannot keep up. Even when I go into some of these infrastructures, I ask myself how anyone could allow children to be in these environments. Now, it is up to the community also. The community has to stand up at one point. You either accept it or not. However, I believe that when safety and security are compromised, there are no ifs, ands or buts. You take a stand. You have to. That is a parental and political responsibility.
In the communities, because they are so caught up with a multitude of issues and trying to balance everything, it is sometimes very challenging to keep the fight, to keep that fire going in regard to education, while dealing with issues of housing, health and employment and all these other things.
Senator Stewart Olsen: Chief, I welcome you and all the students you brought with you. We are really glad to see you here.
From the sounds of it, and from my reading of the literature available on your band, your success rate is perhaps higher than we are seeing generally. I will ask your advice and perhaps pick your brain a little.
Witnesses that we have had and people who have come to present lead me to believe that there is a big difference between proximity to larger centres and rural areas. I am not sure that we could take your model and plunk it into an isolated area. In the report that we will produce, should we do two streams; a rural area and a more urban area. I think both groups face clear difficulties.
Mr. Whiteduck: I would agree. That is a very important observation. At the same time, I have known of some communities that were close to urban centres, smaller towns that were still struggling a whole lot. It is still about trying to develop capacity at the community level. The management of education funding is the challenge. It was learn as we go, because Indian Affairs was not there to help us. Sometimes we made mistakes, and we also learned from our mistakes, but we were left on our own. When Indian control came, we just took over from INAC. We did not have the tools, so we had to develop them, and the tools had to start with ourselves getting the education and understanding, and trial and error.
I know in many communities that management capacity and oversight of programs can be challenging. That being said, it is still my belief thatwith some additional resources, some of the needs could be met. You cannot jump from A to Z. You have to go through the steps, and every community has to progressively go forward. That is why I believe in this concept of an annual report card. Both the government and First Nations need to agree to put it out there. We will put it out there as to number of graduates and special education needs and how it is going. Then we sit down around the table, reassess where we are going and build on the positive, bringing corrective measure where they are required. I think that can be done.
Senator Stewart Olsen: I have an observation more so than a question. I am with you on taking an approach that is closer to the ground, not highfalutin and not essentially agreements. If you have the knowledge and the acceptance that it is better to try to work with people closest to you, I think you have more of a chance of success.
Senator Raine: During our study we have talked to educators in various places in Canada. There is a common thread through it all and that is that someone in the community took the bull by the horns and said we have to put extra money into our schools.
When you were faced with that challenge, what resources were you able to put into the schools to make it work?
Mr. Whiteduck: It came down to the budget negotiations we had with Indian Affairs. We had to be very astute as to how we were negotiating and really push the envelope when we had to and come to some understanding within the formulas. There are many of them. We have to keep in mind many formulas for many pockets of money that come for education. There had to be astute negotiating. In the end in our community — and I am very transparent about this —, for example, when we were negotiating with Indian Affairs on the full envelope for education program by program, Indian Affairs said we can no longer give you any additional resources to run your schools. We then bargained and argued to get them to make the post-secondary envelope larger. They knew we would surplus the money there to reinvest it a band school. For them it was a way around. They could not give it there but they could do projections. What was important for us was that education money stay for educational purposes. That was important.
Had the formula met our needs at the community school we would not have had to do it. What is occurring now, over all the years, because we have multi-year agreements, that as more and more students are going into post- secondary, our post-secondary envelope is shrinking. There is less money to put into the school, and our greater challenge is to deliver the kind of programs we want in the school. We are at that crossroad right now. We are about to negotiate with Indian Affairs for a new multi-year funding agreement and we are not sure what will happen.
I am sure that if push came to shove at the community level, there might be some minor investments in some things that could be done, but we are limited in what is available to us.
Senator Raine: That is interesting. I will share a story of a First Nation band in B.C. that got a special claims settlement and set it up in a trust where the money could not go to individuals, it could only go to community infrastructure and education. That has made all the difference for them because the formulas do not work to have your own school. Good luck with your negotiations.
I have another question. You do work obviously with people in your community going to the provincial schools and vice versa. How do you track the students back and forth? Does each student have a student number so they can track grades from school to school?
Mr. Whiteduck: Keep in mind that the numbers of students we are talking about are not in the hundreds. It is a lot easier because of our low numbers to track. It is tracked through report cards. When they go into one jurisdiction the file goes into that jurisdiction. If they transfer back, the file comes back into our jurisdiction.
In our case, the local town of Maniwaki does not have a large anglophone school. It is about the same size as ours. We tried for years to sit with them and ask why we are working apart; why we cannot figure out a way to bring, for example, our high school students together with yours and try to deliver an even better program, a more complete program. They have never wanted to do that. We have tried many times to do that.
Only so much can be done in those kinds of situations to try to make something work out. We track it that way. Keeping in mind that in the local town, and this may occur elsewhere, I believe 52 per cent, approximately, of the students are Algonquin, either from our community or from another Algonquin community called Barrière Lake. If those students were ever to come back to their home communities, the anglophone system in Maniwaki would fall. That is why I always fail to understand why they were not so open to sitting down with us because to me it made total sense to bring our efforts and our resources to increase the quality of the programs.
Senator Raine: You are absolutely right.
On the tracking system, I believe INAC is developing an education information system to collect data for reporting and accountability. Are you familiar with that proposal?
Mr. Whiteduck: Yes, somewhat. I think it will be an important management tool, but it must be important to the community. You want to use data to bring about change and not just for the sake of collecting it. You want to use it to improve, to understand where your successes and where your challenges are in order to do something. I am always trying to ensure that the database or the management regime that will be used will be a good tool for the community. Yes, it becomes a good tool for INAC and regional bodies, but first and foremost for the community.
Senator Raine: Are you not concerned it might be duplicating existing data management?
Mr. Whiteduck: It probably is, and I am a firm believer in working with First Nations to work it out and arrive at a consensus. Everyone gains from that.
Senator Poirier: In your presentation you mentioned that it was the parents who had the choice of sending their children either to the school on your reserve, the Algonquin school, to the provincial school. Can you give me an idea of what percentage of students goes to the provincial school compared to the school on the reserve?
Mr. Whiteduck: It has varied from a low of about 10 per cent to a high of about 18 per cent. There are a variety of issues behind that. To give an example, some parents do not totally feel secure about our high school diploma. Even though we have proven that it is not an issue in going on to a community college. Some parents want their young people to be more integrated into the mainstream. They feel that will prepare them more adequately and will be a fair reflection.
Senator Poirier: Is it 10 per cent to 18 per cent that go to the school on the reserve?
Mr. Whiteduck: Yes.
Senator Poirier: The level of the students like you have here graduating and going on to community college or to university or CEGEP in Quebec, is it a fair balance between the students coming out from your First Nations school compared to the provincial schools?
Mr. Whiteduck: We are actually getting more out of Kitigan Zibi School than from the provincial system. We notice that also from the community at Barrière Lake, a community north of us, because they send some of their kids to our school but they also send to the provincial school. We tend to graduate one or two per year from the community, which is a huge step for a community that is really trying to gain control, that they have young people at least finishing high school. We tend to get more than we used to, or even now at the provincial level.
Senator Poirier: About three or four weeks ago we were on a fact-finding mission in Saskatchewan and Alberta. We met and visited many schools. Some were schools on First Nations and others were provincial schools with students from First Nations attending. Some of the ones we visited, especially on the provincial side, made a huge effort to make the First Nations students feel welcome by having programs on culture and different things. Is that happening in your provincial school where your students go?
Mr. Whiteduck: There is a little bit. They are not necessarily overly preoccupied in that regard. They feel they have a captive audience. The teaching of Algonquin language does not take place. I must really emphasize the importance of teaching our First Nations language. Really at one point there should be a discussion around allowing First Nations systems as a whole to be taught totally in that First Nations language. In our community, there are only around 150 fluent speakers of our language left, and there is one here tonight.
We teach it in the school. We have the immersion program, but we are on life support. We must ask ourselves whether or not to maintain it. For us it is important, but we need to have the resources to make it happen. We are struggling. We cannot afford for the language to disappear at the community level. We know other First Nations in Canada would like to set up their whole system, but it is a question of resourcing again to make it happen. The French immersion school concept that took place in Ontario and elsewhere across Canada is possible, we can do it. There is no reason why it should not be happening.
Senator Poirier: Finally, on a different line completely, you mentioned that when your students — and we have heard this from many First Nations — leave and go to a provincial school, the cost or funding transfer that you have to make is a whole lot higher and it takes money away from what is left to be distributed in your school within your community. You also mentioned that you entered into an agreement with the province where they have students coming into your school. What is the funding arrangement there? Is it a fair equivalency?
Mr. Whiteduck: I was referring to Algonquin students who live in the town. Whenever a family lives outside the community, you cannot put them on your list for INAC to fund because they are considered to be off reserve.
To answer that particular question, we get the same tuition as we would pay the school board. It is the same amount.
Senator Poirier: Even though they are First Nations students living off reserve, the amount of money that would come to you —
Mr. Whiteduck: No. We do not get any money for anyone living off reserve at the elementary or secondary level. They have to be living on reserve. If they are living in Ottawa and they are attending a high school in Ottawa, we do not get any money. When we prepare the list for INAC, we can only put those who are residents on the reserve.
Senator Poirier: I may be misunderstanding. If you have a child that lives on the First Nations reserve and the parents decide to put them in a provincial school system, then the First Nation has to pay a certain amount to the provincial. Is that right?
Mr. Whiteduck: That is right because we get funding for tuition fees to be paid, yes.
Senator Poirier: However, if you have a First Nation family that is not living on reserve, could that First Nation family make the decision, if they are close by, to send their child to a First Nations school instead of to the provincial school?
Mr. Whiteduck: Yes.
Senator Poirier: If they do, at what level is the transfer of money?
Mr. Whiteduck: At the same level as we would pay to the provincial school for one of our students.
Senator Poirier: At the same level; okay.
Mr. Whiteduck: We worked that out. There are not many cases like that across Canada. I remember negotiating that arrangement some 10 years ago. Although we did not have a lot of students in that situation, the boards did not have a problem with it. The boards were not prepared to provide transportation, but the tuition was covered.
Senator Poirier: To your knowledge, would that be similar in every province across Canada or is that negotiated province by province?
Mr. Whiteduck: It is negotiated board by board. I did this at the board level and someone along the way at the ministry accepted these payments. Our tuition fee agreement with the board was fairly unique because the board recognized our jurisdiction; on our territory, we recognized theirs. It was mutual recognition.
Senator Dallaire: Chief Whiteduck, you have been in the education process, as you said, all your life. You have obviously demonstrated extraordinary leadership skills in advancing leadership within your community.
If we are seeing less than successful scenarios not only in the isolated areas but also in the areas that are not as isolated, do you believe that there is maybe a requirement for a higher commitment or capability of leadership within the First Nations in order to achieve the levels that you have been able to achieve in your community?
Mr. Whiteduck: My answer would be yes. As I always say, not everything is rosy at our communities. We have challenges on many issues, but it takes commitment on the part of people who believe in people. I, along with the community — it is not only me, it is all the people involved — believe in the future of those young people. I know I only have a few years left. I keep looking around to say, which one of these young people will take on the role and feel good about it and feel proud and be able to come to these kinds of tables? That is why I have been so passionate about education, because it has given me the voice that took us so long to bring forward without being fearful in an honest, straightforward fashion.
Senator Brazeau: We talked about the frustrations with bureaucrats far too often. With respect to primary and secondary school, you said there is no funding given to the community for off-reserve students. Is that a policy within the department? What steps have you undertaken to try to correct the wrong and what are you hearing from the officials?
Mr. Whiteduck: That is an important question because it has been an outstanding question. It is a policy within INAC to fund only the on reserve for elementary and secondary education. I will give you one example.
If a student is in the community and there is not a program for them, they have to come to Ottawa because of a special education program, and funding is allocated to pay room and board while in Ottawa. However, we do not get funding for our membership living in Toronto or anywhere else. Every year, we have to send in a report. We list all our students, their grade levels, birth dates, and all that kind of information. They have to be on reserve. INAC could come into the school and say, ``You gave us a list of 20. Show us that these 20 are here today. If they are missing, we might call to check to ensure they are really on the list. ``
If you recall, a number of years ago Quebec ran into a major problem because school boards were putting false or ghost students on their lists. We have to be accountable for the students who are there. It must be verified. There is a policy that has existed. Over the years I have written to ministers and I have spoken to bureaucrats because we have many families that live outside the communities. It is not that you need tuition, but sometimes they need help with school supplies or with book money. Over the years, we at the community have tried to take from our education envelope some of the money and we were providing some funding for off reserve, even though we were not getting money to do so, for school supplies and books. Lately, with the money tightening, we have reduced it to $70 for those who request it, when there is a need, to try to help them with school supplies. That is from our overall pot of money. We may have to take it from band funds in the future, we are not sure. We believe that you belong to KZ, whether you are on the reserve or outside. We will try, even though we do not get the funding. We have asked Indian Affairs to at least consider it because many families who reside on the outside are struggling.
The Chair: I would like to thank you, Chief Whiteduck. You are accomplished in what you do. You are in one of the most important professions that relates to the study we are doing, the teaching profession. I am a strong believer that if there is one profession in the world that can make a difference with our First Nations, it is the teaching profession. I would be remiss if I did not thank the people who came with you in support of what you are doing.
You said this issue has been studied to death; it has. Hopefully, we as a committee will have the wisdom and capacity to make recommendations that will be productive and supported.
With that, we will suspend and go in camera to complete the remainder of our work tonight.
(The committee continued in camera.)