Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Agriculture and Forestry
Issue 1 - Evidence - Meeting of March 9, 2010
OTTAWA, Tuesday, March 9, 2010
The Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry met this day at 5:04 pm, pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Josée Thérien, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, there is a quorum. As clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair.
[Translation]
I am ready to hear motions to that effect.
Senator Eaton: I would like to nominate Senator Mockler.
[English]
Ms. Thérien: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Eaton that the Honourable Senator Mockler do take the chair of the committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Thérien: I declare the motion carried and invite Senator Mockler to take the chair.
Senator Percy Mockler (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: I sincerely thank honourable senators for their confidence. There is no doubt that we have some challenges, but there is no doubt also that we have some good solutions. In studying the agriculture and forestry sectors in Canada, this committee has an opportunity to identify itself and join with stakeholders in developing long- term solutions.
[Translation]
On that subject, honourable senators, I would like to go to the second item, the election of the deputy chair.
Allow me to nominate Senator Robichaud for the position of deputy chair of this committee.
Senator Robichaud, do you accept the nomination?
Senator Robichaud: It is my pleasure to accept it. I see many people here with whom I look forward to working.
But I wonder, Mr. Chair, whether you are able to move the motion yourself or whether it should not come from a committee member instead?
The Chair: That is a very good question.
After checking with the clerk, she has confirmed that it is entirely acceptable.
Senator Robichaud: The clerks are always familiar with the procedure.
[English]
The Chair: I move that the Honourable Senator Robichaud be deputy chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you very much. Congratulations, Senator Robichaud.
[English]
Motion No. 3 relates to the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, better known as the steering committee. I will now entertain a motion.
Senator Ogilvie: Mr. Chair, I understand that the appropriate consultations have been made. As a member of this committee, it is my pleasure to nominate the Honourable Senator Eaton to be the third member of the subcommittee.
The Chair: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Ogilvie that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair and one other member of the committee to be designated after the usual consultations. Those consultations have been completed, and it is suggested that Senator Eaton be the third person on the subcommittee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Segal: I wish to raise a point of order, Mr. Chair. While I enthusiastically support the chair, the deputy chair and the third member of the steering committee — I think they will do an outstanding job — I want to say a particular word about the burden that Senator Eaton will have to carry. Ontario is the largest agricultural producer in Canada, and this committee is now clearly in majoritarian New Brunswick hands. That is a risk I am prepared to live with and delighted to hear about. However, those of us in Ontario are counting on Senator Eaton to make sure that this steering committee in their secret, private meetings does not forget the important role of Ontario farmers, foresters and the lumber industry, which is still one of the most significant in the world and certainly the largest in Canada. I do so with the greatest of respect and affection for every other region.
The Chair: Thank you for those comments, senator.
Senator Ogilvie: Mr. Chair, I am delighted to see that the honourable senator who has just spoken recognizes the importance of fertilizer to this particular committee.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: I want to mention that, as interesting as Senator Segal's comment was, I do not think it is a point of order.
Senator Segal: I completely agree.
[English]
Senator Duffy: I think the record should show that all regions of the country are well represented here and that the senators from each of those regions will vigorously pursue methods to improve agriculture and forestry in those important districts, including Prince Edward Island.
Senator Plett: And Manitoba.
Senator Eaton: I would like the record to show that I plan to introduce a motion for a study on agriculture that perhaps we will do after the one on forestry. I want everyone to sleep well tonight knowing that everything is in good hands.
[Translation]
The Chair: We will now move on to item No. 4.
[English]
This is a routine motion to permit the committee to publish and print its proceedings.
[Translation]
It is moved by Senator Robichaud that the chair be authorized to set the number of printed copies to meet demand.
Honourable senators, is it your pleasure to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[English]
The Chair: Item No. 5 has to do with an authorization to hold meetings and to receive evidence when a quorum is not present.
[Translation]
Item No. 5 on the agenda is also a routine motion authorizing the committee to hear evidence when quorum is not present. I would like to point out the fact that, in such situations, the committee cannot hold a vote. I would accept a motion.
[English]
Senator Plett: I so move.
The Chair: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Plett that, pursuant to rule 89, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the publication of the evidence when —
An Hon. Senator: Dispense.
[Translation]
The Chair: Honourable senators, is it your pleasure to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[English]
The Chair: Item No. 6 on the agenda is the adoption of the first report of the committee. We all have a copy before us. The report is prepared pursuant to rule 104 of the Rules of the Senate and outlines the committee's expenses in the previous session.
Senator Duffy: I so move.
The Chair: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Duffy.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: I do not have a copy of that report.
[English]
The Chair: Do you have a draft copy of the report? Good.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Item No. 7 deals with research staff.
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Eaton. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[Translation]
The Chair: Item No. 8 has to do with the authority to commit funds and certify accounts.
[English]
The Senate Administrative Rules establish procedures for the administration of funds by committees, with committees usually delegating certain authorities to particular members and the clerk. This is the purpose of the motion.
Do we have a mover for Item No. 8?
Senator Fairbairn: I so move.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: With respect to that item, Mr. Chair, in some committees, it has often been requested that the chair and the deputy chair sign jointly in order to ensure that everyone is aware of the committee's expenses.
I think it protects the chair and all the senators, in that everyone is informed when accounts are certified. In certain committees, this has caused some problems. If you do not object, I would like this committee to do the same without amending the motion before us, if it is not too much trouble.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Robichaud. The clerk has a comment.
Ms. Thérien: Do you want all expenses to be signed, for example, like all witness expenses?
Senator Robichaud: No, only when we hire consultants.
Ms. Thérien: Yes, that is already in the motion. It reads as follows:
That, notwithstanding the foregoing, in cases related to consultants and personnel services, the authority to commit funds and certify accounts be conferred jointly on the chair and deputy chair.
Senator Robichaud: Okay, thank you.
The Chair: Honourable senators, is it your pleasure to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[English]
Senator Fairbairn: I want to apologize for being late, but I was delayed across the street because of the elevator going out. I did want to say what a great group the two of you will have as the leaders of this committee in the months to come, and we look forward to our meetings.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Fairbairn.
[Translation]
Item No. 9, travel. The committee must empower its members and staff to travel. Can I have a committee member move motion No. 9?
Senator Robichaud: I so move with the note that the full committee be informed when authorizations are signed.
Ms. Thérien: I will add it.
The Chair: That is an addition. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Robichaud that the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee. With the following addition:
[English]
Ms. Thérien: That the steering committee inform the full committee of these designations.
The Chair: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Item No. 10 on our agenda has to do with the designation of members travelling on committee business. This motion is related to the senators' attendance policy. I will entertain a motion.
Senator Duffy: I so move.
The Chair: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Item No. 11 deals with travelling and living expenses.
[Translation]
The following motion authorizes the committee to pay the expenses of witnesses invited to appear before the committee.
[English]
Senator Plett: I so move.
The Chair: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
The next motion on communication is related to the committee's communication needs.
Senator Duffy: I so move.
The Chair: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Item No. 13 on our agenda is for information only. The committee's regular meeting times are Tuesday at the adjournment of the Senate but not before 5 p.m. and Thursday morning from 8 a.m. to 10 a.m. Our assigned meeting room is 705, Victoria Building. We may change rooms if a meeting is televised. Are there any questions on that item. If not, we have other business to discuss.
The committee tabled an interim report in December 2009 entitled The Canadian Forest Sector: Past, Present, Future. I would ask the new senators on the committee to take the time to read it. We heard from witnesses in the pulp and paper industry, as well as the forest management and silviculture sectors. We heard about cutting practices. A number of other witnesses participated in our televised meetings. In reading the report, you will be apprised of the different recommendations we made in terms of the mandate given to the committee in 2009. The report created a lot of interest. I have received many comments from industry, the academic world, universities and provincial public servants related to natural resources.
The committee held public and private meetings with various stakeholders. I would like the previous committee members to comment on those meetings. Given my experience in other chambers and on other public committees, I would say that this committee was successful in having all forestry sector stakeholders at the same table. They ranged from union representatives to employees in the silviculture sector to professionals in competitive industries across Canada. They all sat at our table to share with us their experiences and to make recommendations on the forest sector of tomorrow.
With that, I would entertain comments from senators who participated in the meetings we held in 2009.
Senator Plett: When I first joined this committee, I was a bit of a naysayer when it came to some of the witnesses coming out and suggesting any type of intervention at all by government in particular forest sectors.
Having spent my life in the construction industry, I realized how much I had to learn about the use of wood in construction. It was tremendously rewarding for me to travel to your province of New Brunswick, Mr. Chair, and to see the Irving operation. We then went to Quebec City and saw what they are doing with wood in some of the buildings there, particularly an arena and a high-rise type of building being constructed entirely in wood. I would commend the people who organized those tours and gave us that opportunity. Today, of course, we are discussing international travel more so than national travel, but I found it very rewarding for the committee to travel so that we could see what is out there. Indeed, it is incumbent upon us as a committee to find a way of furthering the cause of wood first.
As we listened to and had a dialogued with the witnesses, I did take note, as did other senators, that many of the witnesses seemed to point fingers in all directions as to whose fault it was that we do not have more wood construction. We need to determine what can be done about this, beginning with education. I believe that the committee needs to head in the direction of education more so than intervention, and educate people, contractors and architects as to the tremendous potential of wood. It was rewarding for me to have seen that.
I would say to the senators who have not been on this committee before that they are in for a wonderful time. I am so happy that I am part of the committee again, and I look forward to working with everyone as we continue this study.
Senator Eaton: Mr. Chair, I would like to share with you that when the Prime Minister wrote to all of us asking for input into the Throne Speech, I used this report to suggest to him that the best thing he could do to promote wood as a value-added product would be to mandate that a percentage of wood must be used in non-residential construction. I also suggested to him that Environment Canada and Natural Resources Canada — and this gets back to what you were saying, Senator Plett — might consider financing research chairs dealing with engineering, architecture and wood design at various universities across the country. We should take every opportunity presented to us to promote our report, whether to the PMO or ministers themselves, so it does not sit on a shelf and collect dust.
Senator Duffy: Mr. Chair, I was off the committee for a while late last year due to illness. I looked through the documentation here, and it may be that I missed it, but we heard from the kitchen cabinet manufacturers, an impressive group of witnesses. They talked about how they were being killed, business-wise, by offshore imports. They mentioned in their testimony that some offshore laminate products, whether kitchen cabinets or other laminates, are not manufactured to our safety standards. They were concerned about an "off-gas" problem. Some of these products actually give off gas because of a lack of standards. Has that issue been pursued since I was last here? Has it progressed further through the process? It is one thing to promote the use of wood, which I enthusiastically support, but if there is a safety issue as well, we owe it to Canadians to move decisively on that matter.
I am excited to be back.
The Chair: We will note Senator Duffy's comments in identifying the next round of witnesses.
I would like to bring the committee's attention to the order of reference proposed for the study on the Canadian forest sector. If you would permit me, I wish to bring to your attention a few additions to the 2009 order of reference, including:
(d) Recommend specific measures to be put forward by the federal government to lay the foundations of that vision;
(e) Examine and promote the development and commercialization of value added products;
(f) Examine potential changes to the National Building Code of Canada 2005 to increase the utilization of wood; and
To give you an example, it was brought to our attention by stakeholders in 2009 that the biggest landlord in Canada is the Government of Canada in relation to what are called non-residential industrial or commercial buildings. We can do our own individual test. If we look at the renovation of those buildings, the inside walls on all the floors are basically metal studs.
A group called me in January. I said that I could not endeavour to organize meetings because of the restructuring of the committee. This suggestion came from a witness. This is not factual because I have not researched it, but I want to share this with you. As I said, the biggest landlord in Canada is the federal government, not to mention the provincial and territorial governments. If we were to require that 20 per cent of the renovations being done to industrial and commercial buildings had to involve the use of lumber studs, we would be very competitive with the amount of lumber that we are moving into the most lucrative market in the world — U.S. housing.
Senator Plett referred to the five-storey building we saw when we toured Quebec City with Senator Rivard.
[Translation]
Senator Rivard: The funds of the FTQ.
[English]
The Chair: It is the only five-storey building in North America to be built using 95 per cent wooden materials rather than steel, cement or plastic.
In January and February, I asked the Governments of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia whether they train carpenters, wood producers, in their universities and/or community colleges. I was told by the Atlantic post-secondary commission in Fredericton that the only training they have to produce carpenters is for residential buildings only. There is no training, post-secondary education, at the universities and community colleges across Canada.
Using wood in non-residential buildings is an emerging market. That is why we need to examine potential changes to the National Building Code of Canada 2005 to increase the utilization of wood. I need your comments in that regard. We have included that in the order of reference.
The draft order of reference goes on to state:
(g) Examine education in the wood science sector.
That the papers and evidence received and taken on the subject and the work accomplished during the Second Session of the Fortieth Parliament be referred to the committee; and
That the committee submit its final report to the Senate no later than December 31, 2010.
The chair will entertain any comments or additions to the order of reference being proposed to the committee.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: I have no objection to discussing forestry, but does your order of reference also mention agriculture? Because, normally, the order of reference should include both.
The Chair: Very good comment. The following item is the order of reference moved for the study of agriculture and agri-food. It is as follows:
[English]
That the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry be authorized to examine and report on the current state and future of agriculture and agri-food in Canada;
That the papers and evidence received and taken on the subject and the work accomplished during the Thirty- ninth Parliament and during the Second Session of the Fortieth Parliament be referred to the committee; and
That the committee submit its final report to the Senate no later than June 17, 2011.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: So the order of reference is fairly open. We can do research, make comments and hear evidence. I see no problem with that.
The Chair: In both sectors.
Senator Robichaud: Yes.
The Chair: Any other comments?
[English]
Honourable senators, the floor is open to further examination of the order of reference. If not, I would entertain a motion that the order of reference for the agriculture sector be adopted now.
Senator Duffy: I so move.
[Translation]
The Chair: It is moved by Senator Duffy that the order of reference for the study of agriculture and agri-food, as presented, be accepted and adopted.
There are no questions? Does everyone agree to the order of reference on agriculture and agri-food?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
[English]
Now I would entertain a motion to adopt the order of reference for the forest sector.
Senator Eaton: I so move.
The Chair: It is moved by Senator Eaton that the order of reference as discussed for the Canadian forest sector be adopted. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Do you wish to entertain any other business before we adjourn, senators? If not, we will meet next Tuesday, not this coming Thursday.
Senator Duffy: At 5 p.m.
The Chair: Yes.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: We will still remain fairly open for situations that we need to look at in the short term. In fact, we are supposed to study issues that would require immediate attention. I remember the fisheries committee, in particular, last year, regarding the lobster issue; the committee held meetings solely on that topic. It was a matter of a meeting to hear witnesses and prepare a report. So, I would like us to work in a similar fashion, if situations arise, in either agriculture or forestry, where we would need to examine a particular issue, without being restricted by an agenda that was put forward and that would not allow us to act in such a way.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Robichaud. I will ask the clerk to comment on the wording of the order of reference.
Ms. Thérien: Both orders of reference are broad enough to allow the committee to study issues that may arise at any time and to report at any time. Therefore, the committee is not bound by shackles: there is enough flexibility to do so, for both issues.
Senator Robichaud: That is exactly the point I wanted to make, Madam Clerk.
[English]
The Chair: Are there any other questions?
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: Do you need a motion, Mr. Chair, to report to the House? No.
Ms. Thérien: That is not necessary.
[English]
The Chair: I would ask the steering committee if we could take a few minutes after the adjournment to prepare ourselves for future discussions.
I will now entertain a motion to adjourn.
Senator Segal: I so move.
(The committee adjourned.)