Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Issue 4 - Evidence - April 21, 2010
OTTAWA, Wednesday, April 21, 2010
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met this day at 4:22 p.m. to study the rise of China, India and Russia in the global economy and the implications for Canadian policy.
Senator A. Raynell Andreychuk (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: We are the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade, and we continue our study on the rise of China, India and Russia in the global economy and the implications for Canadian foreign policy.
Today we are pleased to have before us from the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada, Paul Davidson, President, and Pari Johnston, Director, International Relations.
We apologize for being late. There was a vote, so it is a command performance for senators to be in the chamber. We warmly welcome you.
We know you have opening comments and then we will turn to questions.
For the record, the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada has represented the interests of Canadian universities since 1911. You represent 90 public and private not-for-profit universities and university degree-level colleges across Canada.
With that weight on your shoulders, Mr. Davidson, please begin your opening remarks.
[Translation]
Paul Davidson, President, Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada: On behalf of the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada, which currently represents 95 universities across Canada, I would like to thank you for inviting us to provide input to this study. It is a privilege to be here with you today. It is also an excellent opportunity to discuss a very important issue.
[English]
During my prepared remarks today, I will focus on China and India because our association has been working with those two countries for many years. There is good news to report and more work to be done.
My comments will include how Canadian universities make a significant contribution to Canada's foreign policy; how universities' internationalization strategies underpin Canada's engagement with the emerging economies, the rising economies of China and India; and what more can be done to support Canadian universities' recruitment efforts as they seek to tap into the pool of global talent, in particular the vast potential of China and India.
I know this committee has been working diligently over a number of years on this subject, and we encourage you to keep on the task and to conclude the work you have undertaken. The past three years have seen significant changes, particularly in China and India, and I will speak to those changes in a moment.
Canadian universities have a long tradition of international engagement that enhances and informs Canadian foreign policy. I will use a few numbers to illustrate the magnitude of this activity on the world stage.
Our members have approximately 4,400 active academic and research partnerships with other institutions across the globe. There are about 400 of these partnership agreements with China and 65 with India. Our universities have also undertaken over 2,700 international development projects over the years, of which 250 have been with China and 130 with India.
Presently, 77,000 international students are enrolled full-time in our universities from coast to coast to coast. With regard to China and India, I would say that 15,000 Chinese students are studying in Canada at this time and 2,800 from India.
Universities are important windows on the world for Canada, and strive to foster an in-depth understanding of the interconnectedness of today's globalized knowledge economy in Canadian students, as well as to provide the international knowledge and cross-cultural skills they need to prosper in a global environment.
[Translation]
The AUCC believes that the post-secondary and research sector is in a position, through its well developed academic-exchange system, to play a vital role in developing robust ties between Canada and emerging economies such as India and China. It is also important to remember that universities already have a 30-year tradition of close ties to build on.
Canadian universities' internationalization strategies could be used as a forum for developing dialogue on economic partnerships. International outreach covers areas such as student mobility, faculty exchanges, education programs and services abroad, international co-operation in research, international-oriented curricula and the recruitment of promising foreign students.
[English]
One example of internationalization is that Canadian universities are becoming increasingly globally oriented in providing educational programs and services abroad, such as joint degrees. A recent study by AUCC shows that China is the top country of these joint programs, with 34 different joint academic programs offered between Canadian and Chinese institutions.
These joint programs take place in large institutions such as the University of British Columbia and the University of Toronto, but also in smaller institutions. I will illustrate in particular the work of the Université du Québec à Chicoutimi. The chair of our board happens to be the director of that institution.
To give a small example, the initial exchange of students led to the further exchange of faculty, which has led to the point where the Université du Québec á Chicoutimi is offering Master of Business Administration programs in China taught by entrepreneurs from Chicoutimi. Those programs are only one small example of how internationalization is taking place on campuses right across Canada.
In addition to these kinds of joint programs, the burgeoning science and technology sectors of China and India are also potential sources of stimulus to Canada's own research sector and economic competitiveness. I think this area might be one where the focus at the start of this committee's good work was on the issue of student mobility and recruitment. We are also critically interested in how to develop stronger international research collaboration, particularly with countries like China and India.
For example, China and its institutions continue to build their domestic capacity in research and development. Investments in China have helped drive a spectacular nine-fold increase in research publications in recent years.
Over the fall, I spoke with members on the other side of this building about the tremendous growth of India's research capacity. A recent study from Thomson Reuters predicts that India's research productivity will be on par with most G8 nations within seven years, and it is positioned to overtake them by 2020. I still think that Canadians need to appreciate how quickly the capacity of China and India is accelerating, not only economically, but through the research, science and technology agenda. It is doing so at a remarkable pace.
With their increasing activities and international research collaborations, Canada's universities are well positioned to tap into this all important network of Chinese and Indian researchers, and their innovative capacities. There has been important progress and growing momentum through increased engagement in a number of growing Canada-India and Canada-China higher education partnership forums.
I draw your attention, in particular, to a workshop sponsored by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. It was a sponsored PhD fair in Beijing, and was a spectacular success in generating interest among their top students. Eight Canadian universities currently have signed agreements with the China Scholarship Council to host top Chinese graduate students, with more agreements to come.
As for India, AUCC is working to advance a Canada-India strategy that is sustainable, scalable, results-oriented and adds value to members' existing initiatives through activities such as a joint workshop of Canadian and Indian deans of graduate studies, held last December; an upcoming practitioners' workshop in June; and a mission of close to 20 university presidents to India in November of this year.
These activities build on the momentum generated by Prime Minister Stephen Harper's education round table during his trip to India last November, the likely summer 2010 visit to Canada of India Prime Minister Singh for the G20, and a possible visit of Kapil Sibal, Indian Minister of Human Resource Development. We need to take advantage of this moment in the development of Canada's and India's relationships and accelerate our efforts.
[Translation]
Last, attracting foreign students is an essential component of any strategic partnership with emerging economies. I would suggest you consider the following three issues: Why is this important for Canadians? Why are some countries ahead of us in this area? How can we catch up?
[English]
As the Honourable Stockwell Day pointed out when he was before the committee in November, there is an immediate economic benefit of welcoming international students to Canada. I am in the first 11 months of my job with AUCC and I have had the opportunity to visit over 45 campuses in nine provinces. At each of those campuses, I have been struck by how they have been transformed by international students. I have referred to the University of Toronto, the University of British Columbia and the University of Alberta. Those universities are clearly evident examples of excellence in this regard.
However, I also want to speak to places like Vancouver Island University in Nanaimo, where there are close to 1,000 international students. In a community that has been devastated by the decline of the forestry sector and the difficulties they are facing in the fisheries sector, 1,000 students are coming to study in Nanaimo. They are paying tuition and rent, they are buying groceries, their families are coming to visit and they are building links with the Canadian community.
The study that Minister Day released and spoke to you about last fall illustrates there is a $6.5-billion contribution annually to Canada's gross domestic product. That contribution is larger than the export of coniferous lumber. It is larger than the export of coal. It is the largest single export to China. It is the largest export to Korea and the third- largest export to France. There is much more we can do.
According to the report, education services are Canada's number one export to China and are valued at $1.3 billion annually. These services also mean jobs in communities across the country. Eighty-three thousand jobs are directly attributable to international students studying in Canada, and is close to $300 million in government revenue.
I mention revenue because of the economic condition Canada is facing. Education services have a real economic impact in today's economy, but they also lay the foundation for the new global economy that we are all working so hard to pursue.
The measure of economic outcomes is only the most recent indication of the benefits associated with international students. While studying here, students from abroad bring diverse perspectives, expertise and skills to Canadian classrooms and labs. This positive effect is not restricted only to institutions in the largest centres.
I want to pause there because we often think about the immediate economic benefits of international students, but I think it is important that every Canadian student have the opportunity to work and study alongside a student from another country. The transformative power of learning about another person's culture and country of origin, and forging those links, last a lifetime. Your own experiences in life will speak to the value that kind of international experience plays early in your careers.
I have spoken about the Université du Québec à Chicoutimi with 300 international students, a significant number of whom are from China, and how these linkages have led, in turn, to entrepreneurs in Chicoutimi helping to teach the MBA program in China. We do not often think of Chicoutimi as a place that is engaged in China. We do not often think of Chicoutimi as significantly engaged in the global economy, but it is. At another occasion, I will speak about how they are linked to aluminum and other sectors in their research.
[Translation]
Over the past ten years, the University of Moncton has experienced significant growth in the number of foreign students it attracts. There are currently 600 of them, or in other words, 12 per cent of the total student population. For New Brunswick, which will be one of the areas hardest hit by significant population decline over the next ten years, these students, which represent a skilled, often bilingual workforce, are a way of boosting the culture and economy of the province.
[English]
Another example is Thompson Rivers University in Kamloops, which hosts approximately 1,200 international students from over 70 countries and cultures around the world. When those international students choose to stay here, foreign graduates bring significant economic and social benefits to Canada as an ideal source of highly qualified personnel for the skilled labour market, already integrated into our communities and without any of the barriers related to foreign credential recognition.
When they graduate from our schools and return to their countries of origin, many become business, government and academic leaders, creating international networks that strengthen Canada's economic and diplomatic ties abroad. We all know how alumni can be our greatest informal ambassadors and promoters. His Excellency Lan Lijun, the current Ambassador of the People's Republic of China in Canada, attended both McGill University and Queen's University as a graduate student.
Looking at China, it is important to note that Canada was ahead of the curve by being among the first countries decades ago in engaging China through student recruitment and exchange. The federal government's Canada-China Scholars' Exchange Program, as an example, was established in 1973. Since then, over 900 scholars have participated. After having been educated here, many of those people have returned to positions of prominence in China, creating crucial contacts for Canada.
However, we have lost some of that early advantage and other countries now surpass Canada in international student recruitment. Taking market share of Indian and Chinese university students as an example, we see how both the United Kingdom and Australia, with university systems of comparable size, have a larger share of the market than Canada. At Canadian universities, the enrolment of Indian students currently stands at approximately 2,800, which is far behind Australia which has 28,000 and the U.K., which is 27,000.
We prepared these numbers in advance of Prime Minister Harper's visit to India last fall. One must scratch one's head and wonder how it is that countries with comparable sizes of university systems have ten times the number of students from India. What does that number say about the Canada of today and the Canada of tomorrow?
Our number-one source of students enrolled in Canadian universities is from China, approximately 15,000 students. However, this number is still considerably fewer than Australia with approximately 51,000 students and the United Kingdom with 49,000 students.
What are these countries doing that Canada is not? The governments of the United Kingdom and Australia have made major investments in education branding and marketing initiatives. The U.K. provides approximately $23 million per year for education marketing in addition to the core funding of the British Council. The Australian government funds its main education promotion organization, Australian Education International, at about $20 million per year.
Canadian universities have been increasing their own promotion and recruitment efforts to make significant investments from their own resources to take advantage of the growing demand amongst the increasingly mobile student population. More support is needed still to leverage these investments. Given the national nature of these objectives, the demographic and labour market challenges and the need to address foreign credential recognition, we believe there is a strong role for federal leadership on this file.
We need to build on the progress to date in areas such as the new welcoming immigration measures, the development of a new Canada education brand and new magnets for talent, such as the Vanier Canada Graduate Scholarships and the new post-doctoral fellowships announced in Budget 2010. With Canada in the international spotlight this year with the Vancouver Olympics, and as host of the G8 and G20, let us continue to promote the Canada brand abroad, including our excellent universities.
We continue to call for a significant federal investment in an international student recruitment strategy that promotes the excellence of Canada's education system to the many talented students abroad, including China and India. For this reason, we are also cooperating with other national education stakeholders to create a united front of stakeholders to work in partnership with the government to coordinate and deliver promotion and outreach on behalf of the Canadian education sector.
I know this committee has been working for approximately three years on this issue. I want to point to three positive changes.
First is the development of the Canada brand. I would not have recommended additional marketing money three years ago because Canada did not have its act together. Provinces promoted their brand; Canada's own institutions promoted their brands. There was no framework. The development of the Canada brand is a significant step forward. All provinces support that initiative. That alone is something to be celebrated in this country.
Second is welcoming immigration measures. Students can now work off-campus while they study in Canada. That students can work for three years after graduation is a significant change. The new Canadian experience class of immigrants enables students to identify themselves as prospective citizens before they come to Canada. These tools are all powerful tools to recruit students to Canada.
Third, I have mentioned the Vanier scholarships and the post-doctoral awards. These programs are important parts of the tool box to maintain our competitive advantage in a competitive field.
In closing, we all take great pride in the excellence of Canadian universities — the quality of their research and innovation, and their contributions to science and technology and the new economy. However, we also have to keep in mind the incredible pace of change that our competitors are undergoing. It is significant that India will surpass all of the G8 in the next few years. In relation to the pace of growth in China and the development of its capacity, Canada has a moment now to take action but if we wait another two, three or four years, Canada will have missed this opportunity.
[Translation]
On behalf of the AUCC, thank you for giving us the opportunity to be here today. I am now available to answer any questions you may have.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Davidson. You covered all the areas that we expected you would, in a detailed way.
Senator Finley: That presentation was interesting. I have several questions.
You mentioned a strong leadership role for the federal government. I can see that happening in a number of different ways. You touched on the subject of federal funding for initiatives. I am new to this area. Does the federal government provide any money now for this activity?
Mr. Davidson: The current education marketing budget at the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade is about $2 million per year. Many of our institutions spend more than that on their own.
Senator Finley: Should Canada spend more in line with the $20 million that I think you said Australia or the U.K. spend?
Mr. Davidson: In the last federal pre-budget cycle, we advocated a five-year, $100 million initiative — $20 million per year — to build on work done and to reflect the scope of competition.
Senator Finley: I was extremely impressed with the litany of partnerships and relationships that you mentioned during your presentation. For example, we have 400 partnerships with China, but only 65 with India. We have 34 joint degree programs with China. You did not mention if we have any with India. Why is there such a lag or delta in our experience with China and India? Is there any specific reason? Is it lack of effort?
Mr. Davidson: Canada was one of the first countries to recognize China and made considerable effort in the mid- 1970s. There was an appetite and a capacity on the part of China to absorb that kind of exchange and joint programming.
In the case of India, it has not been on the screen for a number of reasons. The university sector is not alone in this situation. India is a rapidly emerging economy that has shown a real appetite for further collaboration in recent years. Some of the Government of Canada's broader agenda around India has created opportunities for Canadian universities. We look forward to continued follow-up from the Prime Minister's visit last November. There have also been changes within India in its approach to engaging other universities. Recent legislative changes in India create opportunities that did not exist even a few months ago.
Senator Finley: How do Canadian tuition fees generally compare to those in Australia and the U.K.? Are they higher or lower?
Mr. Davidson: I will ask Ms. Johnston to respond to that question. She has watched that aspect of the file closely.
Pari Johnston, Director, International Relations, Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada: On average, one must keep in mind that tuition fees vary by program, institution and province. One argument we make strongly that is a competitive advantage for Canada is that our tuition fees are lower in general terms. However, the quality of education offered is on par with other countries. This fact is marketed as part of the Canada education brand as an advantage for Canadian universities.
Senator Finley: We are not penalized by abnormally high tuition fees?
Ms. Johnston: No.
Senator Finley: You mentioned that the Canadian Experience Class immigration program makes it easier for foreign graduates to immigrate to Canada in the final analysis. Is that program an attractive option both for us and them? If we are trying to build relationships with these countries, perhaps stealing their best minds is not the smartest thing to do. Has the program increased the number of students coming from China, India and Russia? Are there other steps within the immigration system that you would recommend to make it more attractive for students to study in Canada?
Ms. Johnston: Opportunities to have both work and post-graduation permanent residency options are some of the decision-making factors for international students in choosing their destination for study.
The number of conversions for international students from the Canadian Experience Class has not been released. We will receive those numbers at an upcoming meeting of the Advisory Committee on International Students and Immigration that Citizenship and Immigration Canada chairs.
Canada can do more on visa processing. Positive steps have been taken through innovative pilot programs in China and these programs will now follow in India. The programs reduce processing times for study permits by offering a pre-medical clearance when a letter of admission is issued. Nevertheless, Canada needs to improve its efforts to cut down visa processing times. Competitor countries are able to turn around visa decisions more quickly than Canada. In part, this capability is a question of resourcing staff to process the visas. However, we acknowledge that positive steps have been taken to pilot innovations, like the premedical clearances, and that step has shown results in China already.
Senator Wallin: I have one quick factual point and then a question. There was a belief that Canada benefited immensely after 9/11 in terms of attracting international students; students who could not enter the United States and that were at first intrigued by Ivy League schools came here, first by default and then they discovered it. Is that belief true and does the phenomenon continue?
Mr. Davidson: The answer is yes, it is true. Post-9/11, the security concerns of the United States made it more difficult for international students to study in the United States. Also, other quality-of-life questions for international students in the United States in that era were challenging. Canada did benefit as a result of that situation.
As to whether the benefit continues, in some ways the change in administration in the United States has created a new openness to international students, and that change has increased our competition. I think it is early at this point to tell what the hard numbers are, but word on the street in the various international recruiting fairs is that America is an interesting place to go again. International students want to return there, and the administration is taking steps to make it less difficult for them to study there.
Again, in terms of the changing nature of this competitive market, we have an opportunity now to accelerate our efforts to hold on to the share we have.
Senator Wallin: This question is focused more on India than China. We do not conduct much business there when we look at the actual numbers. I think it is about $2 billion a year. We conduct that amount with the Americans in a day; and a lot of people who have given testimony here have pointed out that we have been slow on the uptake.
We also hear at the same time that India is producing more engineers, MBAs, tech gurus and the whole lot than North America ever will be able to. There is counter-evidence to that claim that the schools are less sophisticated and the degrees are not worth as much. Can you comment on those things, which then leads me to the question: Are we training our own people to do the right thing or are we depending on importation?
Mr. Davidson: I will start with a general comment. Right now, as we recover from the economic downturn, there are still real issues of unemployment in the country, but the underlying problem of labour shortage persists in Canada. We can anticipate a significant labour shortage in the next five, ten or fifteen years, and we will need to attract and retain top quality talent from around the world. Therefore, we need a series of mechanisms to ensure we can attract those best and brightest to Canada.
The work you have done, and that other committees of the Senate have done, looking at the underlying demographic and productivity challenges, point to that ongoing need to recruit top talent. In terms of whether Canadian universities are doing enough to educate for the right kinds of skills, I will leave one piece of information to illustrate.
Recently, we have been through the toughest economic downturn in 60 years, with net job losses of close to 1 million. There have been net 150,000 new jobs since 2008 for Canadian university graduates — so net 150,000 new jobs through the worst of this recession. I think that information points to the fact that Canadian universities are educating students well, that there is a demand for the graduates and that there is still good value in attending Canadian universities.
It is also fair to say that universities are becoming more nimble in adjusting to the economic circumstances that Canada faces. In many ways, universities are at the leading edge of identifying where those labour shortages are, and they are moving to fill those shortages.
The other question around the movement of engineers from India to Canada and others from Canada to India, if I can pick up on Senator Finley's question — what about brain drain, is this what these countries want — I think in a global economy, we are talking about brain circulation. We have to find ways of putting the best people in the right places, wherever they are in the world, to the benefit of a global economy that is networked and global.
Senator Jaffer: I was interested in your presentation and I have learned a lot.
One observation you made was on the British Council. As someone who has benefited from the British Council for many years, in a way I feel almost like giving up against the British Council because of one starts with the British Council in grade 1, they are in that student's life, providing libraries, et cetera. Do you know if there is an equivalent of the British Council in Australia?
Ms. Johnston: Australia has a network of offices around the world called Australian Education International. These offices play a bit more of a marketing role than the broader cultural role that the British Council has played. Nevertheless, the offices are sites for welcoming students. They are part of the disbursal of Australian scholarships in the same way that the British Council is, but they do not have the same cultural dimension of projecting British culture abroad that the British Council has. The equivalent would be the German Academic Exchange Service, DAAD, in Germany, which is a consolidated cultural promotion recruiting arm of the German government, but Australia's network is close.
Senator Jaffer: We have not spoken about Germany, but I have observed that Germany is having success in attracting students. What I find curious is, Germany is attracting students from English-speaking areas such as India or places in Africa, and yet there is an attraction for them to go to Germany. I am interested in knowing how Germany is attracting these students.
Ms. Johnston: An interesting trend, and it is not limited to Germany, is that a lot of the European universities are offering more English-language programming. In many of the Nordic countries, and Germany as well, particularly for the higher-demand programs in business and commerce, many are offered in English.
In addition, as Mr. Davidson mentioned earlier, the tools of scholarships are very much part of the German approach to attracting top students. Germany invests heavily in scholarships, both at the undergraduate and graduate level — research opportunities for international students.
They have visiting scholar programs, faculty exchange programs. They are well funded to promote those educational partnerships that will attract students and faculty to choose Germany as a partner.
Senator Jaffer: Are we developing a brand, as British Council has, or something to provide the outreach to have people understand Canada better?
I was interested when you talked about branding, because other witnesses have spoken about provinces acting separately and the federal government acting separately: Who are we; what are we? It was interesting that you are of the opinion that we are improving in the branding of what is Canada. However, I am interested in knowing further, are we developing not exactly the British Council brand but something like it to interest people in coming to Canada to study?
Mr. Davidson: The exercise in developing the Canada education brand took a number of years. It was funded by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, working in partnership with the Council of Ministers of Education in Canada and working with the broad education stakeholder community. It took time. As with anything in Canada as contentious in a federal-provincial context as education, there is always positioning among the players.
However, the result is a Canada brand that all provinces are prepared to use. It provides a framework for institutions to work within. Now we think it is time to obtain the resources, to ramp up that effort to do exactly what we are saying, which is to put the brand in the face of the public that we are trying to attract to Canada.
I think there is a moment this year following the incredible success of the Vancouver Olympics, and with the G8 and G20 coming later this year, to introduce Canada in way that the world has not seen for a generation. It is a way of underscoring some of our core values and core strengths as a country, and our openness to engage in the education field more vigorously. I think this year is a moment to accelerate those efforts.
Senator Downe: In 2008, 178,000 international students studied in Canada for a minimum of six months. How many Canadian students during the same period were studying outside Canada?
Ms. Johnston: The data is a bit problematic. What we know is based on dated data from the United Nations Education, Scientific and Cultural Organization, UNESCO, that says about 25,000 Canadian students studied for a full degree abroad.
The Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada has also tracked students that go abroad for a short-term exchange. Again, the numbers are small. The last data collection among our member institutions showed that about 2.2 per cent of the Canadian student body had an international experience abroad, about 18,000 students. That experience was for a short-term credit experience.
Senator Downe: That can be a minimum of six or seven months.
Ms. Johnston: That is right, but it is for credit from the university in Canada.
Senator Downe: It is normally a year at a foreign university.
Ms. Johnston: That is right.
Senator Downe: I want to review your comments about the visa, which is an ongoing problem. You indicated that two pilot projects were underway that looked promising. How many students were involved in those projects? How many visas were issued; 100 or 1,000?
Ms. Johnston: That is a good question. We can find out more information and provide it to you. As part of a stakeholder group meeting every six months, we attend the Advisory Committee on International Students and Immigration led by Citizenship and Immigration Canada. They will report on the outcomes of this first pilot project in China.
I am not aware of the exact number of students that have gone through that particular pilot. However, the objective was to overcome the medicals obstacle. When students requiring a medical were accepted by a Canadian institution with the letter of offer, the students were also issued a form to start the process of obtaining their medical clearances. In that way, when the visa came through, the medical clearance would be only a matter of days.
If you are interested, we can find out more and send the information to you.
Senator Downe: That would be great.
Compared to the pilot project, how long did it take to obtain a visa before and how long did it take under the pilot project? What was the reduction in time?
Ms. Johnston: I will speak in the context of the China market and what the project hopes to accomplish in the Indian market. Right now, for a university study permit in India, the standard processing time is about two to three weeks, although it varies among sectors. Project organizers hope to cut down that time to a matter of days. The objective is similar in the Chinese context where I believe the average is about a four-week turnaround and they are hoping to cut down the time to a matter of days, which is the service standard in other countries.
Senator Downe: Is there a security component, as well; is there a security check before these visas are issued?
Ms. Johnston: There are certain countries for which a security check is required before issuing a temporary residence permit. It depends on the country.
Senator Downe: Are India and China two of those countries?
Ms. Johnston: I will get back to you with that information. I am not sure of the specifics.
Senator Downe: If I heard you correctly, Australia has 10 times as many foreign students as we have.
Senator Smith: Per capita.
Senator Downe: They have 28,000 and we have 2,800, and they do not have as large a population as we do, so the problem is even more significant. What do you recommend we copy from the Australians?
Mr. Davidson: First, I think we have done a number of things correctly in terms of getting the brand right, getting many of the visa processing issues right, and introducing significant scholarships as marketing the tools. Those are things the government has done.
Universities have invested their own resources and identified target markets. Now the stakeholders are committed to working together in a consortium approach. What we need now are the resources to market like crazy into those emerging markets. That marketing can be anything and everything from Internet marketing to bricks-and-mortar presence in key markets, to putting the Canada brand into the minds of young Indian and Chinese students and their families.
Senator Downe: In your opinion, the only thing we are missing is money for marketing. If we had money for marketing and an adjustment of the visa process, there is no reason we cannot increase our numbers; is that right?
Mr. Davidson: The study last fall showed that international students contributed about $6.5 billion a year to Canada's economy. We want to double that amount, as a community. We can do that over time with a partnership approach that gives the federal government its legitimate role, if the provinces pull together and if the universities and others in the education sector work in concert.
As an example, high commissioners have expressed frustration to me that President X from University of Y drops in on Monday, then the next president drops in on Wednesday and another, two weeks later. We are taking steps as a community to ensure we coordinate our approach.
Universities will always compete against each other, because they are competing for the best and brightest. However, to give an example of this mission to India in November, the preparatory work started a year ago. We have key partners identified, we are working with the Government of Canada and, in the mission that will take place, there will be a number of joint activities for the 20 or so institutions that are participating. Then they will have an opportunity to fight for their piece of the action afterwards.
There will always be room for initiatives by individual institutions. However, we need the resources to accelerate the marketing effort in a competitive environment. Take the issue back to education services being our largest export to China and Korea; it is one of the fastest growing sectors.
We need to get Canadians' heads around the fact that we have a world-leading education experience, and the world is hungry for it. That marketing is to everyone's benefit. It is not only to the benefit of the universities. It is not only to the benefit of the community. It is to Canada's benefit if we are more actively engaged with student and faculty exchange and with international research collaboration.
We have spent much of the last century strengthening our relationship with the United States and continuing it with Europe. We are in a new century and we need to adopt new techniques and pursue new markets in a way that will put Canada at the centre of the stage.
Senator Downe: You indicated you went to 9 of the 10 provinces. Which province did you not go to?
Mr. Davidson: I will travel to Newfoundland and Labrador shortly. There was a change in presidential leadership at Memorial University.
Last Canada Day, the University of Prince Edward Island hosted a convocation for the first graduate students ever to complete their graduate studies entirely in the North. We were in Iqaluit, celebrating that accomplishment. It illustrates the point that excellence can be found in all parts of our country and in all sizes of institutions.
The Chair: You may have to give the same accolades to the other projects in the other provinces.
Mr. Davidson: I spent last week with Peter MacKinnon, President of the University of Saskatchewan.
The Chair: Senator Downe, I hope you will raise some of those questions on visas, et cetera, tomorrow.
As a supplementary question, are you saying there are no more barriers in any of the universities, vis-à-vis their provincial funding? That used to be the issue: tax payers, the locals, paid for educating their own students and although there were significant numbers of international students, there were barriers to increasing the balance. Are those barriers gone now, and are the universities free to pursue their strategies overseas?
Mr. Davidson: First, every university in Canada is pursuing an internationalization strategy, with different degrees of emphasis. Some are focused on international students while others are focused on the faculty and research collaboration. The demographic pressures are uneven throughout the country. Within southern Ontario and the Greater Toronto Area, there is a demand for spaces. I think the Ontario government is projecting a need for 15,000 places yet in the GTA. Those are real pressures.
However, Atlantic Canada was one of the first parts of the country to see the transformative power of international students. There is capacity there. There is emerging capacity in Western Canada and in British Columbia.
I do not want to leave the impression that a mere $20 million a year will solve all the problems for the higher education community. However, good hard work has been done to remove a number of the barriers and the sector is eager to go the next step with the federal and provincial governments.
As a recent development, the Province of Ontario has committed to doubling the number of international students. The province has an aggressive strategy. It is important to applaud that initiative, but it is important for the federal government to ensure this initiative happens within a context that underscores the Canadian brand and not any one particular part of the country.
Senator Di Nino: I was surprised that the number of foreign students in our country is approximately 2,800. I expected the number to be a lot higher.
Senator Downe: That number is for India. The total is 178,000.
Senator Di Nino: That sounds better. I was shocked when I heard that.
On Monday and Tuesday evenings, I host a group of international students from Kazakhstan under the Bolashak student program sponsored by the state. They are 15 students — 8 from Toronto and 7 from Ottawa. There are 50 or 60 students in that program. A number of private students also come to Canada on their own.
What percentage of foreign students is state-sponsored with conditions attached versus those who come on their own?
Mr. Davidson: I do not have data available.
Ms. Johnston: We can look into it and try to provide you with more details. As you point out, more countries are funding overseas study in a structured way for their students. The China Scholarship Council that Mr. Davidson referenced earlier has a goal to send 12,000 Chinese students for graduate studies, which includes several hundred to Canada. Vietnam will do the same through its Project 165 that we learned about from the ambassador recently. I am also familiar with scholarship programs from Kazakhstan, Malaysia and Chile. More countries are looking to such programs when local demand is not met by their institutions.
We can talk to our colleagues at the association to see if data is available on self-funded versus state-funded students to share with you.
Senator Di Nino: Obviously, there is a different marketing approach for the two types of students.
Because of changes that have taken place particularly in this area, attracting students to stay in Canada would not be welcome by the states that sponsor students in the hope of educating them to return home to help build their economy. Can you comment on that point?
Ms. Johnston: You are correct. Often, in cases where students are here on a state-sponsored program, there is an obligation to return home, even if it is for a two-year period, for example. Otherwise, the student will have to pay back the scholarship from their government. The China Scholarship Council and Chilean government-funded programs have those conditions. As you point out, their government has invested in the student for the purpose of returning to contribute to the country.
Countries looking to send their students abroad are of great interest to our members. Many members are actively developing marketing strategies to position their institutions as attractive options for these students. We have particularly good links in Chile. We are going there as part of a mission with Canadian colleges to visit our university contacts in Chile to help position the Canadian sector as an attractive option for these well-funded Chilean students.
Senator Di Nino: Students applying obviously have transportation needs, accommodation needs and all kinds of other cost components. Do you have what I call a ``welcome package'' of different services, and where and how to obtain them? For example, do you help them find accommodation? Is this part of your responsibility or do students have to do it themselves?
Ms. Johnston: AUCC does not play that role. Each member institution actively developing internationalization strategies to attract international students has to create supportive services for these students as a major part of their effort. These services cover everything from pre-departure orientation and campus housing to health services and academic counselling. There is often an on-campus international student adviser dedicated to providing exactly the type of services that you point out. It is a part of creating a welcoming environment so that students have a positive experience. Word of mouth is important as those students talk to their friends, parents and relatives about why it is good to study at a Canadian university. Member institutions have dedicated resources for these international student advisers.
Senator Di Nino: For those students who have graduated, do we have any process in place to conduct a satisfaction survey? Do we reach out to determine how they report to their country, families and colleagues?
Ms. Johnston: Data like that is collected in a couple of ways, both at the individual and institutional level. Institutions track the experiences of international students on campus and with their alumni.
The Canadian Bureau for International Education conducts a survey of international students, a cross-section of international students, to obtain a picture of their experiences and long-term plans. It strongly shows how satisfied students have been with their education in Canada. The most recent report was released last year. We can send you a copy if you are interested.
Senator Di Nino: Can you put the results on the record?
Ms. Johnston: I do not have specific percentages, but the study showed that a vast majority of students expressed a high level of satisfaction with their studies in the Canadian post-secondary system. The report also talked about challenges in finding long-term work opportunities in Canada and converting the students' interest to stay in Canada long term. There were issues in regard to visas. However, the study was highly positive in terms of the students' experience on campus.
Senator Frum: Which educational products that Canada offers are the most popular with foreign students in terms of undergraduate or graduate studies? Have we any niche position in any graduate programs for which we are known?
Ms. Johnston: The overall programs of particular interest to international students are, not surprisingly, in our business, engineering and commerce programs. Those programs are where enrolment is the highest. In regard to India, we understand from market research undertaken by the Canadian High Commission that there is strong interest in Canada's digital media expertise, environmental studies and animation programs at some of our colleges. These areas are where India wants to ramp up capacity of its human resources. The programs of interest depend on the particular market. We should help tailor some of our programming to those interests.
Senator Frum: I appreciate that the marketing budget is not large enough, but how do you allocate the marketing budget? Are you mostly trying to target graduate students? From the university's point of view, is there the same economic benefit to a graduate student versus an undergraduate student?
Mr. Davidson: Each institution has its own marketing strategy based on its particular niche and areas of excellence. Institutions pursue specific markets for specific programs.
The Government of Canada's marketing initiative is about $2 million per year. That does not go far in a globally competitive environment. One challenge is to identify where best to focus the effort. Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada seeks advice from the community once or twice per year about the most compelling and urgent markets. That level of effort is not sufficient to meet the opportunities available.
I will turn to Ms. Johnston regarding funding relationships and the most advantageous level of students to have in Canada.
Ms. Johnston: There are often opportunities at the graduate level for students to receive scholarships funding from their home country. At the undergraduate level, students may come with less funding attached or they are not able to attract funding through provincial graduate scholarships. At the graduate level, the interest is in having those students come with either funding opportunities from their country, or they can access opportunities from provincial graduate scholarship programs.
Senator Frum: Obviously we want to make inroads for the Chinese students. I am wondering about the language barrier, along the line of Senator Jaffer's question. Do any Canadian universities offer courses to the students in their native languages? Is that something that perhaps our competitors do, to explain the difference? I am sure for some students their English is good, but I imagine for many Chinese students, they arrive here not able to speak a lot of English or French.
Ms. Johnston: Many of our members have set up English as a second language bridging programs — and sometimes French as a second language as well — for students who might need a year of foundational language studies to ramp up to the level needed to go into the full academic program. That program might be offered on campus in Canada, or with a partner in China and then they come over to enter straight into the degree program.
In some cases, members have partnered with local community colleges in Canada to provide that bridging English study. That is often the case. There are member institutions that have innovative joint programs. As one example, Simon Fraser University has an interesting five-year joint program with a partner in China, where Canadian and Chinese students study together; they spend two years in Canada, then two years in China and then the third year, they study together. The program is offered in both Mandarin and English.
This example goes to our point earlier about the benefits to the Canadian students of having this international student element to their studies. In this case, it is a joint option. There are certain examples where they are able to study in Mandarin as well, but that is in a joint programming context.
The Chair: How many students come to learn English or French first before they go on? Are there universities that offer that training?
Ms. Johnston: We can go to the specific numbers that were cited in the economic impact report that we referred to earlier, produced by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. I do not have the numbers before me, but the ESL and FSL programs for Canada are popular. We attract thousands of students to Canada for those programs. For example, Canada is the first choice country for Brazilian students who want to study English abroad.
Language students contribute to the economic impact cited in that report earlier. I do not have the figures before me, but we can provide them.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: I believe that I am right in saying that community colleges are involved in you marketing campaigns in China and India. I would like to take this opportunity to focus on New Brunswick because there is a very popular pilot-training facility in Moncton. Most of the students are from China. Are other community colleges and schools offering specialized training as proactive as the universities?
[English]
Mr. Davidson: Often, universities and colleges are faulted for not being able to work together. This area is an one where colleges and universities work effectively together. The community colleges have their own international objectives. They are working in consortium with us and others; but practically speaking, many community colleges across the country work conjointly with the universities, whether through offering language programs on arrival, bridging programs or skills upgrading before the students come into the university system. The community colleges right across the country work in collaboration with the universities effectively on these programs.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: Foreign students are offered grants to study in Canada. Has a net cost-benefit analysis been done of the return on these grants for Canada?
[English]
Mr. Davidson: In terms of the cost benefit for the offering of the scholarships, I do not know if Ms. Johnston has further insight into that question.
[Translation]
Ms. Johnston: I am not sure whether a specific study of the economic cost-benefit has been carried out. However, I do know that the Department of Foreign Affairs did an analysis of the impact of the grants it awarded over a thirty-year period. We have mentioned exchanges between Canada and China. The Canadian Government is the provider of these grants and, as such, has attempted to assess the social impact of these Chinese students based on their political or business background. Indirect benefits were identified. The Government did not conduct a statistical economic analysis per se. However, it did attempt to identify how many of these students ended up in powerful or influential positions.
Senator Robichaud: You have said that these people will undoubtedly be involved in any mission visiting these countries, did you not?
You mentioned marketing strategies and the fact that you require more money to generate more business. Have the Canadian Government and universities and colleges developed a specific marketing strategy?
We heard testimony last week indicating that the Canadian strategy was quite vague. We were told of one particular group working on an ad hoc basis at the provincial level, but with no real strategy. Is this something the Committee should be looking into or are you happy with the strategy that you have developed with the Government?
[English]
Mr. Davidson: One challenge in the higher education field, as in other parts of Canadian life, is to achieve alignment among a wide range of players. I will not say that every one of the 95 members of the association is playing to a common international strategy. We are trying to create an environment in which they can pursue strategies that are within a framework that is well understood and articulated.
When that becomes broadened to include other parts of the stakeholder community, I can say that Canada is in the process of getting its act together. I do not want to leave the impression that every fine point of the strategy has been agreed and determined, but there is a strong recognition of the need to work together — a will on the part of the stakeholders to work together.
I think considerable progress has been made at the federal and provincial levels to find a way of working effectively together, recognizing that every head of government in this country has its own political agenda to fulfill. However, the world is a big country and we have enough space for all of that to be recognized, achieved and celebrated.
If I can put a little more precision on the point, the Prime Minister's visit in November to India was significant. He was followed immediately by the Premier of Ontario in December. The Premier's visit built, in some degree, on the Prime Minister's visit, which was followed in turn by Premier Charest's visit in late January, early February. We understand that Premier Wall also is planning a visit shortly.
What we are trying to achieve is to ensure we do not wear out our welcome, and that each of the provincial premiers or federal ministers have a series of introductory discussions that do not go anywhere. We are trying to build on that effort effectively together.
From our point of view, we are achieving it with modest resources, a lot of goodwill and recognition that unless we align our efforts, we will be outplayed. We will be outplayed by the competitors we have mentioned — Australia, the U.K. and the U.S. — and it will not be long before China and India are also competitors to us, offering opportunities to international students in their own markets.
Senator Jaffer: I know you started off saying you would talk about India and China, but our study is on three countries, which includes Russia. Can you tell us whether we have some kind of student exchange with Russia? If you do not know, I will understand.
Mr. Davidson: We have some experience with Russia. Today, we are focused on China and India because those markets are the priority for our membership. Those countries are where we have seen the greatest opportunity and the most progress on the part of federal and provincial officials.
I know that the university community has worked since 1990, and even before that, with the opening of Russia, to provide opportunities for exchange at the faculty level. There are student mobility opportunities. There are also partnership agreements with Russian universities and Canadian institutions in developing their markets in the oil and gas field, for example, where we have tremendous expertise in Western Canada. That expertise is being developed jointly with Russian-based institutions.
We also offer expertise to the Russian state in terms of proper administration of the resource industry. Canadian universities have significant skills and talents that they bring to Russia. However, today we focused on China and India.
Ms. Johnston: To build on what Mr. Davidson said, programs have existed in the past that we worked with CIDA on. Partnerships for Tomorrow, for example, was an opportunity where we were able to bring in Russia civil servants for study tours at Canadian universities to build up their skills in particular areas. That program has been completed.
However, there has been a lot of engagement through that and other programs to build up our academic relations. As Mr. Davidson mentioned, through our database of exchange agreements with Russia, a significant number of our members have partnerships. If you are interested, we can forward you that data.
Senator Jaffer: I want to ask a further question in terms of Senator Frum's question on language. Others have asked on the same topic.
I understand people come here for ESL and FSL. Are we encouraging our students to learn other languages? I imagine students from India do not need language training because English is India's working language, as well. However, how successful are we in helping our students learn Mandarin?
Mr. Davidson: We have a long way to go, and a number of institutions have identified this area as an important priority for them. Therefore, a number of universities are offering significant courses of instruction in Mandarin and in other languages.
I want to use the question as an opportunity to speak about how far we have to go. Fewer than 10 per cent of Canadian students leave their province to pursue post-secondary education.
Senator Jaffer: Did you say fewer than 10 per cent leave their province?
Mr. Davidson: Yes; if we want informed, engaged and global citizens, we have to get students moving. We have to get them moving across Canada and externally, as well.
To pick up Senator Downe's question, the number of Canadian students who have the opportunity to go overseas is small indeed. There are some opportunities, and there is a real desire on the part of Canadian universities to encourage their students to study abroad or to have a community service learning opportunity abroad. However, the efforts are modest compared to the critical need to ensure we have informed, active and engaged global citizens.
Senator Finley: To set the last part of my last question in some context, I want to ensure that I have understood some of the numbers that have been talked about here. Mr. Davidson, your laudable goal is to double over a period of time the number of students who come to Canada to study. The number I have says we had 178,000 foreign students in 2008. Doubling that number means we would go to 356,000.
The net benefit to the Canadian GDP was $6.5 billion. Over a five-year program, we would be looking at a total additional benefit to the Canadian GDP of $32.5 billion, and about $1.5 billion in return to the Government of Canada in terms of revenues. That benefit seems to be a remarkable return for a fairly modest output, if we had some guarantees it would work.
I have two concerns. The first relates to infrastructure within the university and college network across Canada. One concern is that we do not over-promise and under-perform.
The second is perhaps a question that you might not have an immediate answer to. Are there particular degree choices that are more popular than others? For example, are engineering degrees more popular than social science degrees? If that is the case, are the Canadian universities' human resources able to cope with that sudden surge of demand in a particular kind of degree choice?
Mr. Davidson: Let me address the first part of your question. Again, Ms. Johnston may want to supplement my response.
In terms of the number of students, 178,000 is the number of international students in all parts of the education system in Canada. That number includes students studying at secondary level, students at the college level and language school learners.
The number we tend to use around the university level is 77,000. If we talk about doubling, we use 77,000 as the base. That number brings us to your question about whether we have the capacity to absorb this number in terms of infrastructure.
I would be remiss if I did not remark on the Knowledge Infrastructure Program and the $2-billion investment the federal government made in Budget 2009 to enhance infrastructure significantly. In turn, that investment was matched by the provinces, and then some. We have about a $5-billion infrastructure program completing next March.
That said, the capacity is uneven across the country within southern Ontario and GTA. There is real pressure for places right now. Ontario universities are working as a group with the Province of Ontario to manage that pressure. However, Northern Ontario has capacity, as does Atlantic Canada and many parts of Quebec. The Western provinces have significant capacity in most of the jurisdictions.
I believe that if Canada sets an ambitious goal, the university sector will be prepared to ensure we met those milestones. Let me put it in the positive: A number of university presidents last October, when they met with Minister Day on this matter, said: we will work with you; set targets and timelines; we are prepared to be accountable for the investments that we made, and we are ready to do our part.
I think the opportunity is tremendous for all the immediate economic reasons I point to but also for the question of where this economy is going. Where do we want our children to learn and think about the world? We need to ensure they know about China and India, as well as the other parts of the world. There is an opportunity now to do something truly exciting because those building blocks have been put in place. We only need to ramp up the effort.
Senator Finley: Regarding the subject of degree choices, is that data you can give us later? I want to know the percentages of students that go into engineering, computer sciences, et cetera.
Ms. Johnston: We can provide you with that data. As I was saying earlier, those programs are some of the top degree programs, as are business administration and commerce. International students go into those programs when we look at the aggregate. We can forward that information.
I will pick up on that subject again, senator, because it is a concern we have, as well. We understand the long- standing desire to ensure that Canadian students have the opportunity to study in Canadian institutions. That goal is an important public policy goal: that students who have not been able to go to university traditionally are able to access a place in university is hugely important in terms of accessibility. We do not want to set up a system where we are educating international students and letting Canadian students go.
We have huge issues about how to reach minority and under-represented populations. At another time and place, I would be delighted to come back to talk about our work around increasing access for Aboriginal Canadians, which is the part of the population that is growing at three times the national average and who have one third the university attainment. The issue is critically important, particularly in Western Canada, but also in urban Canada.
I am not asking to spend my entire life in front of a Senate committee, but I will be delighted to speak about some of those domestic issues on another occasion.
Senator Downe: Is there a financial incentive for universities to attract international students because they pay such high tuition? In many cases, they pay double or more. If a university is looking at their budget and they can take 1,000 Canadians or 1,000 international students, they will double their revenue with the international students.
I understood Senator Finley's question to be about not only capacity but availability at the end of the day. Will Canadians be left out if too many international students come because of financial concerns? Is there any restriction?
Mr. Davidson: Lessons are to be learned from around the world. One lesson that the Australian example shows is that too much emphasis was placed on international student recruitment at the expense of ongoing public funding for public institutions. Australia put a number of its eggs into the international student basket. Canada should learn a lesson from that approach.
While international students pay a differential fee in most jurisdictions across the country, the fees are break-even amounts for the most part. International students are not ``cash cows'' at this point because provincial operating fund arrangements do not acknowledge the presence of international students. The differential international fee makes up the provincial portion of an operating grant.
Senator Downe: Let me understand this point. If a Canadian goes to university currently and pays $10,000 to the university, the fee goes to the university. If a foreign student pays $20,000, how much of that fee goes to the university?
Mr. Davidson: The $20,000 goes to the university, but a Canadian student's $10,000 does not represent the full amount of the education grants the university receives.
Senator Downe: I appreciate that.
Mr. Davidson: The provincial support provided makes up the difference.
Senator Downe: Is the university making a profit on international students?
Mr. Davidson: It depends on the program and discipline. It is difficult to make generalizations. There are additional costs to ensure the international student has a welcoming experience, receives language support and is provided with cross-cultural experiences.
Certain media reports recently have had a fair degree of emphasis on international students as revenue generators that will meet funding gaps for universities. That will not be the case. If that is the reason people want to pursue international students, I do not think there is a compelling case to be made.
There is some up side, but the immediate benefit is economic infusion in the communities and foundations laid for further economic development.
Senator Downe: There is no current cap on how many international students any university can take.
Mr. Davidson: I am not aware of a cap.
Ms. Johnston: Each institution will set its own recruitment and target goals, depending on their internationalization strategies and their goals for relations with a particular country.
Senator Di Nino: You touched upon my question when you answered the last part of Senator Downe's question. Surely, there are values and benefits other than financial benefits — if, in effect, the financial incentives are benefits — such as ancillary social benefits, contacts, et cetera. For the record, can you tell us what some of those benefits are beyond bringing additional economic activity to the country? What else do we receive from this investment to benefit communities and the country?
Mr. Davidson: I will give precise examples and then speak more generally.
Currently, fewer than 2 in 100 Canadian students go overseas. How do they have an international experience when they go to university? They have that international experience by working in class, living in residence and engaging in campus activities with students from another part of the world. Canadian students are confronted with different religions, languages and culture. That experience is an international experience. Every Canadian student can benefit from the social, cultural and, frankly, pedagogical impact of having international students in the classroom.
For example, a dean of architecture in one part of the country said people are used to hearing about how great it is that we bring students from some country and they can study architecture in Canada. Yes, that is great, but for the student who has travelled only five miles to go to the institution, and who has lived only in that one community, imagine what it is like to sit next to a student who has grown up in Delhi or Beijing and what it does to their sense of the world and their sense of place. That experience is a direct example of the pedagogical impact of having international students with us.
In terms of business opportunities, we all know that formative relationships are made during university years. Many of you are still friends with people you went to university with. Some of your friends from university are from other countries. Multiply that by 150,000 students. Those relationships lead to the person-to-person exchanges we value so greatly, and they lead to business opportunities.
We talked about the significant downstream benefits when we look at where the Chinese elite are. Where did they have their first international experiences? It was in Canada. What are we doing to leverage that experience?
Where are the alumni who attended Canadian universities today? They are in positions of leadership in countries around the world. As senators, you visit other countries of the world. You know the powerful experiences those senior officials and entrepreneurs had when they speak about their formative years at McGill University, University of Toronto, University of British Columbia or Université du Québec á Chicoutimi.
Senator Di Nino: Thank you for putting that on the record.
The Chair: We talked a lot about Australia. A number of years ago, Australia determined in its foreign policy initiative that all routes do not lead to London and the Commonwealth: that their neighbourhood was important. Fortuitously or otherwise, the two largest countries we are now discussing, China and India, happen to be in Australia's neighbourhood.
Canada is strategically next to the United States. We talk about our southern neighbours in the western hemisphere. We have a linkage with Africa because of our roots with the Commonwealth and la Francophonie. However, we are trying to compete with China and India.
You came to talk about China and India but, strategically, how does our foreign policy prospectus marry with what you say we should do in those two countries? How did you choose those two countries, as opposed to all other countries with all other foreign students? How does that competition work for us?
Mr. Davidson: One big challenge for any university on any topic is how to focus. The world is out there. Universities are, by nature, interested-in-inquiring organizations. They reach out to pursue any number of initiatives.
Most universities in Canada are in what I call a third generation of international strategies. In the first generation, they went out to make linkages. In the second generation, they helped faculty find different places. Many universities have now made their own strategic decisions about what is most important for them. In many of those institutions, China and India are number one and number two, based on the size, pace and rapid growth of the market, and opportunities for intellectual and research exchange.
I want to come back to the importance of international research collaboration. We hope the next Nobel Prize winners are in Canada, but they will work with academics from China and India, in addition to Europe and the Americas.
In terms of how and where we focus, if the current budget right now is $2 million, that amount does not take us far in terms of the federal government's marketing effort. There is a desire to be closely focused and closely aligned. China and India emerged, for our universities, because of their size and rapid growth.
Coming to the question of the Americas, Ms. Johnston has mentioned Chile. Brazil is another country that is rapidly on the screen, and one that a number of our members are in the early stages of identifying strategies for.
There is recognition that continuing to have a presence in the Americas will be important for Canada's universities. However, when universities try to determine what to do with the resources they have, they focus on China and India.
Senator Downe: I was shocked by your comment that only 10 per cent of Canadians leave their home province for university. You talked correctly about the importance of having international students sitting beside people who may have travelled only five miles to attend university, but it also might be useful to have them sitting beside students from all the provinces of Canada. Is there any initiative or anything undertaken in that area?
Mr. Davidson: Absolutely there is. At different points in Canadian history, there has been a different degree of emphasis and interest in promoting that kind of mobility.
University presidents, in private discussion and in our regular meetings, are looking at avenues to increase the mobility of students — even as a strategy for managing the growth pressures in the GTA. How do you encourage people to move beyond the GTA?
To put senators' minds at ease, and particularly to put government officials at ease, the starting point is what can universities do now with existing resources to make it easier for students to be more mobile in the country? We talk about a third year abroad. Why do we not have a third year in another part of Canada?
The Chair: Thank you. I think you have covered a lot of ground beyond China and India, and whetted our appetite to investigate these issues more thoroughly, whether in the context of this study or on ongoing foreign affairs issues.
You married your position and the government's position very well, so you have given us a lot for our future report and our future studies. Thank you for your patience in answering all those questions, and for coming here today.
Mr. Davidson: I loved every minute of it. I appreciate your passionate commitment to higher education in Canada.
The Chair: Senators, we have a session tomorrow that perhaps can build on this one on some of the questions.
(The committee adjourned.)