Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Issue 3 - Evidence - Meeting of October 19, 2011
OTTAWA, Wednesday, October 19, 2011
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met this day at 4:15 p.m. to examine and report on the political and economic developments in Brazil and the implications for Canadian policy and interests in the region, and other related matters.
Senator A. Raynell Andreychuk (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade is here today to examine and report on the political and economic developments in Brazil and the implications for Canadian policy and interests in the region, and other related matters.
Before us today, we have, from Citizenship and Immigration Canada, Mr. David Manicom, the Director General, Immigration Branch; and Ms. Sharon Chomyn, Director General of the International Region.
Also before us today from the Canada Border Services Agency is Mr. Peter Hill, Director General of Post-Border Programs; and Mr. Geoff Leckey, Director General, Intelligence and Targeting.
The committee has been studying the political and economic developments in Brazil. We are looking at broad foreign policy interests and issues. The issues of security, border issues and visa implications have been raised by both witnesses and committee members.
We have asked you to come before us today to give us more information on areas of concern and interest. I am not sure who will lead and who will just be there to assist in questioning. Have you decided in which order you wish to go?
Sharon Chomyn, Director General, International Region, Citizenship and Immigration Canada: I will lead off with some initial comments.
The Chair: The floor is yours.
Ms. Chomyn: Thank you for the invitation to appear today and for the opportunity to contribute to your study of Canada's relations with Brazil.
As a key political and economic player both regionally and globally, Brazil is a high priority for Canada's foreign policy. The Brazilian middle class is burgeoning and the business sector thriving, as befits one of the world's fastest growing major economies. Greater numbers of Brazilians than ever before are interested in and able to afford international travel, and links between Canadian and Brazilian businesses are growing. CIC recognizes and welcomes these developments.
People-to-people ties are a major component of the relationship between Canada and Brazil. The Canadian embassy in São Paulo received more than 60,000 applications for temporary resident visas in 2010, compared to some 44,000 in 2009, and this growth is continuing. The number of applications received in the first quarter of 2011 represented a 51 per cent increase over the same period last year.
At the same time, the approval rate for visa applications by Brazilian citizens worldwide has risen from 91 per cent in 2006 to 95 per cent in 2010. Our visa office in São Paulo is now our fourth largest in terms of temporary resident visas issued, just behind Mexico. The tourism industry in Brazil projects continued growing interest in travel to Canada in the months and years to come.
In this growing market, concerns have been raised that Canada is putting itself at a competitive disadvantage with its visa requirement and visa application process. Canada imposed a visa on Brazilians on July 6, 1987, in response to a rising number of asylum applications. The visa requirement has been effective since we now receive very few asylum claims from Brazilians.
[Translation]
CIC has focused on efficiencies and service improvements. This has sometimes been a challenge, given the rapid and sustained growth in demand for visa services in Brazil in recent years. Brazilian travellers, whether coming to Canada as tourists, businesspersons or students, have benefitted in a number of ways from CIC's modernization agenda.
[English]
I will speak briefly to several recent changes that are helping CIC to improve the quality of its service to Brazilian travellers. This includes the introduction to Brazil of a network of visa-application centres, or VACs, the implementation of a modern visa-processing system called GCMS, the promotion of multiple-entry visas and the issuance of longer-term multiple-entry visas. We are also planning to extend our e-applications to make them available to all overseas travellers, including Brazilians.
Visa-application centres are available in three major Brazilian cities: São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, and Brasilia. The VACs offer full-day service, five days a week. Portuguese-speaking client service agents provide telephone and email client support. They are also available to help applicants fill out their forms and check that applications are complete and that all necessary documents have been included. The VACs also provide a web-based tracking service for clients. People may still apply in person at the visa office, although we encourage them to use the VACs.
The Global Case Management System, or GCMS, is a modern electronic case processing system. It will eventually replace several dated processing systems and data repositories with a single department-wide system. Although there have been teething problems in some missions, and this does include São Paulo, we are confident that the gains in efficiency offered by GCMS will be to the benefit of all of our clients. For example, we are now combining the advantages of VACs and GCMS and creating GCMS files for visitors from Brazil in Canada. This has further increased the efficiency of our office in São Paulo. We can respond to large and unexpected increases in application volumes by adding staff in Canada. Because officers can only review applications once support staff have created the electronic files in GCMS, this innovation has eliminated an important bottleneck in the visa process.
With respect to multiple-entry and long-term-validity visas, in July of this year, CIC increased the maximum period for which visas could be valid from five years to ten and instructed officers to issue long-term multiple-entry visas wherever possible. Visa offices are encouraging applicants to apply for multiple-entry visas and are routinely issuing multiple-entry visas valid until the expiry of the passport. The ten-year visa validity will not benefit Brazilians whose passport is valid for five years. However, from 2010 to 2011, the proportion of Brazilians applying for multiple-entry visas has doubled, from 20 per cent to about 40 per cent. This saves Brazilian travellers an extra visit to the visa office and gives visa office staff more time to focus on other work.
E-applications were originally implemented in Canada in 2008, and future deployments will eventually include all CIC business lines, both inside and outside of Canada.
Some of our clients, including the business community, have expressed concerns about processing times for temporary resident visas in Brazil. At this time last year, our processing time was only two working days, which incidentally was below the global average. It has grown over the past year, as the number of applications has grown significantly.
We share our clients' concerns about processing times and are addressing them. Over the past months, we have sent a total of ten officers on temporary duty to São Paulo to help deal with the influx of applications, in addition to adding one permanent visa officer and three support staff to our office. We implemented the VAC network in Brazil in August, improving services to clients and increasing the efficiency of the visa office by reducing the number of incomplete applications we process. We continue to find new ways to use GCMS to add processing efficiencies. We will also continue to send officers to São Paulo on temporary duty to respond to unforeseen increases in application volumes.
We will continue to look at ways to reduce processing times, but our processing times are much faster than U.S. processing times. According to the U.S. embassy website in Brazil, the waiting period to obtain a visa interview in São Paulo is currently 84 days. I would note that our office actually interviews very few applicants.
Although we do not have a formal Business Express Program in Brazil, the visa office has worked through the trade program in our consulate general and with large and well-known companies there that regularly send representatives to Canada. These companies are allowed to provide a letter of support that applicants submit in place of other supporting documentation usually required from visa applicants. This has simplified the visa process for the majority of business travellers.
CIC is aware of concerns expressed by the Canadian business community and is willing to work collaboratively with the community to seek ways of addressing these concerns.
Before I close, I would like to say a few words about students. Canada is a destination of choice for Brazilian students, and CIC is eager to do its part to attract them. Numbers of applications for study permits have been rising steadily, from around 1,600 in 2006 to just under 3,000 in 2010. The approval rate for study permits has held steady in the high eighties. Last year it was 89 per cent.
Students coming to Canada on short-term courses of less than six months do not require a study permit. They simply come on a temporary resident visa. In 2010, there were 13,000 such visas issued.
CIC will continue to look for ways of facilitating bona fide travellers to Canada, while, at the same time, ensuring that persons who do come to Canada meet the requirements of Canada's legislation. That is our dual mandate: facilitating ease of access and movement for travellers, while protecting Canada and Canadians.
The visa requirement is one tool that allows us to screen prospective visitors to Canada to ensure that these requirements are being met, and we aim to apply it in the most efficient, equitable and, ultimately, the most facilitative way possible. Our modernization initiatives are allowing us to apply our visa requirement rigorously and effectively. By granting approved visa applicants longer-term visas, we are improving service to legitimate travellers and giving our staff more time to focus on applicants who might not meet our visa requirements.
I hope this has provided you with something of an overview of the visa system and how we are seeking to apply it in Brazil.
[Translation]
Peter Hill, Director General, Post-Border Programs, Canada Border Services Agency: Good afternoon, honourable senators.
[English]
I would like to thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to speak to the Canada Border Services Agency's role in the visa application process for Brazilian nationals.
Here with me is my colleague Geoff Leckey, who appeared before this committee on a similar issue last year.
[Translation]
Madam Chair, as the members of the committee are aware, the CBSA is mandated to facilitate the secure flow of legitimate travel and trade into Canada while ensuring the safety and security of the country and its citizens. With respect to the visa issuance process, this means that the CBSA is responsible for ensuring that those receiving permission to arrive in Canada do not pose a risk to this country's safety and security.
[English]
That said, the policy authority for regulating which countries require visas, establishing requirements and issuing the associated documents rests with Citizenship and Immigration Canada.
For the purposes of this committee, I would like to clarify the Canada Border Services Agency's role in the visa process, which is a two-layered approach.
The first layer involves responding to a specific request from Citizenship and Immigration Canada to conduct a national security screening of a visa application.
The second layer is applied at the border and is part of the agency's day-to-day operations. When visitors arrive at a port of entry, the border services officer will verify travel documents they are presented with and determine whether all Canadian entry requirements have been met. Should someone be found inadmissible at that time, the appropriate enforcement action will be taken.
With respect to the national security screening process, as my colleague has indicated, regulations have been in place since 1987 that require Brazilian nationals to have a visa prior to entry in Canada.
When an application for a visa is received by CIC, it may, depending on the level or nature of concern, refer the application to the CBSA for a national security screening. In conducting the security screening, the agency employs a number of investigative tools, including consultations with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and the RCMP, to determine whether the applicant represents a risk to national security or to public safety.
Once the CBSA has performed its security screening, it sends its recommendations to Citizenship and Immigration Canada. CIC then makes the final decision to refuse an application or approve an application and issue the appropriate documentation.
During the screening process, the CBSA will assess whether the applicant poses any risks under sections 34, 35 and/ or 37 of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. These sections of the act pertain specifically to acts such as subversion, terrorism, espionage, crimes against humanity, genocide, war crimes and organized crime. These provisions assist the agency to manage access to Canada by providing recommendations to CIC through the national security screening process and/or by denying entrance to the country by those who present a criminal or security risk to Canada at the time of entry.
With regard to some Brazilian visa statistics, I can tell you that referral rates for national security screenings have traditionally been low. For example, between April 2010 and August 2011, the CBSA received 38 referrals from CIC to conduct a national security screening. Of these referrals that the agency received, three cases resulted in an application being withdrawn or closed at the mission, and one case resulted in a recommendation for inadmissibility under section 35, which is the section that refers to war crimes.
This number represents approximately 10 per cent of the cases that were referred to us for security screening. These referrals were completed within a relatively reasonable time, averaging 15 calendar days to process.
In conclusion, I would like the committee to know that the CBSA remains committed to working very closely with our CIC colleagues to maintain the integrity of the visa program by keeping this process efficient and effective.
[Translation]
For the agency, this means finding the balance in our dual mandate of facilitation and enforcement, so as to assist CIC in the highest capacity without compromising national security or public safety.
[English]
I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear and I look forward to your questions.
The Chair: Thank you for the opening statements.
Before I turn to my colleagues, I would like a clarification. Both of you have made the case that you are efficient in responding to an increased demand of a relationship between Brazil and Canada, and that the problems have not been overwhelming; there is no pattern of abuse of visa entrance or high risk. There may be individual cases — and I do not want to get into those — but there is no pattern.
Have you made a full assessment on Brazil's capability of controlling its own borders? Is this one of the reasons that we do have a pretty good record, as you are pointing out, which allows us to respond, or is it not factored into your work at all? In other words, I want to know if we were to continue to say that we want an increased attention, more efficiency in our relationship for the benefit of business, tourism and education, that our counterparts in Brazil have a system of integrity in place, as you say ours is?
Ms. Chomyn: I can tell you that visa policy decisions are based on a country-by-country assessment. It is very specific to the country concerned, based on a number of criteria.
Among the criteria, we consider the social and economic conditions of the country in question, such as the unemployment rate and the average income. We look at immigration issues, such as the number of asylum claims in Canada, or if there are problems with illegal movements, irregular movements — the security and issuance processes for the country's travel documents. We look at safety and security issues, such as terrorism and organized crime. We look at how that country manages and controls its own borders. We look at its human rights records and bilateral relations.
Any decisions to impose or to lift a visa, recommendations on the part of the department, would reflect the larger Government of Canada priorities and interests and be based on extensive consultations with other government departments.
The Chair: My question, though, is this: Are you satisfied that the Brazilians are responding to security needs and are within a country that is responsive to ensuring the integrity of our relationship, which includes the security and safety of transiting business and others?
Geoff Leckey, Director General, Intelligence and Targeting, Canada Border Services Agency: We have not conducted an in-depth study into that precise question, but I would note that you are correct in your observation that we do not observe a pattern of high-risk threats to Canada being presented by visa applicants from Brazil. If we were so asked, we would be happy to conduct such an in-depth study.
The Chair: My question stems, of course, from the desire to ensure that we do have a good relationship. However, some of our testimony indicated that Brazil is concerned about organized crime and that while they have not been on the forefront in South America on that, they are conscious of it and they are responding to it. I wondered whether that assessment is in line with what you have observed.
Mr. Leckey: I can answer that by quoting the statistics, which were quite interesting. There are 60,000 applications; there are only 38 referrals to CBSA for in-depth security screening. Of those, none was for organized crime.
The Chair: That answers my question. Thank you.
Senator D. Smith: I know that the ideal situation sometimes with countries is where you do not even have a visa requirement, but over the last couple of years we have been looking at the four BRIC countries and all of them have them.
I am curious; you did not give any statistics on any claimants for refugee status who came from Brazil in the last year. Do you have any statistics on that? I know sometimes you get people from countries that you would not think would fall into the category, but they nevertheless happen.
Ms. Chomyn: I will turn to my material, if you will allow me.
Yes, we have statistics as far back as 2008, and you will recall that the visa was imposed back in 1987. In 2008, 113 refugee claims were received from Brazilians; in 2009, there were 96; in 2010, there were 99; and so far this year, at least until June, there were 40.
Senator D. Smith: Do you have any idea, to the extent that they are resolved one way or the other, what the percentage would be where they were successful claimants?
Ms. Chomyn: Yes. I can talk about last year. Of the claims made by Brazilian citizens that were finalized last year, there were 106 finalized: 9 of those were accepted; 48 were rejected; 22 were abandoned; and 27 were withdrawn.
Senator D. Smith: The acceptance rate was what?
Ms. Chomyn: About 11 per cent.
Senator D. Smith: Pretty low.
Ms. Chomyn: Yes.
Senator D. Smith: I do not know the reasons, but they would be case by case; there could be a whole bunch of different reasons.
Is either country trying to pursue a policy of moving toward no visa status or do you think the status quo is more apt to exist indefinitely?
Ms. Chomyn: Are you speaking of Canada and Brazil?
Senator D. Smith: Yes. Is either country on a course to pursue that or does neither country seem to be pressing it at the moment?
Ms. Chomyn: I am not aware of any studies being done on the Canadian side to that end, but as a department we are always monitoring conditions in Brazil.
Senator D. Smith: I am not pressing the case; I would just like to know the facts and that has been helpful.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I very much appreciate the information you have given us. I would like to know, once a visa has expired, whether some Brazilians wish to remain in Canada? If so, what means does Canada have for finding them and deporting them, that is, the ones who stay past the expiry date? And how do these means compare with those of the U.S.?
[English]
Mr. Hill: I have some key statistics with respect to removals regarding Brazilians. Between 2000 up until October of this year, the CBSA has removed approximately 1,326 cases. Of these removals, 969 are failed refugee claimants, and the remaining 357 individuals did not make a claim for refugee protection. Of the global number of approximately 1,326 removals, 75 have been identified as criminals, and 25 of those individuals were also failed refugee claimants.
To put this into further perspective, so far this year we have removed 70 Brazilians. Of this, 48 were refugee claimants and 22 were non-refugee claimants. The total of the criminal cases within that was 8 criminal cases.
I do not have the data with me with respect to the comparison to the United States. I could undertake to try to obtain that information and provide that to the committee. Have I answered all of your questions?
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I would ask you one other thing in this regard. I do not know whether you have this among your figures. I asked about those who could have been sent back; did you accept any of them, and how many?
[English]
Mr. Hill: Accepted in what way?
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I do not know. If, once their visas had expired, people asked to remain in Canada and become Canadian citizens — I do not mean refugees — have you let any of them stay, people who were just fine? If they applied to stay in Canada, did you accept any of them? You gave us figures for those who were rejected.
[English]
Ms. Chomyn: I am sorry, but I do not believe that information is available. I am happy to pursue that with the department to see if we can get that information for you, but I do not believe that kind of information is collected.
The Chair: I would appreciate it if you would see if you can get that information and provide it to the clerk to circulate to the members.
Senator De Bané: The question was how many Brazilians stay in Canada after their visa has expired. Mr. Hill talked about those who wanted to stay for all sort of reasons — refugees, et cetera — but what about those who got a visa, landed in Canada and then remained in Canada after the visa expired. That is what I understood from my colleague, Senator Fortin-Duplessis.
The Chair: I think Ms. Chomyn can add to her answer.
Ms. Chomyn: I will ask you, if you do not mind, a couple of questions to ensure I understand what you are seeking from the department.
If I understand you correctly, you would like to know the number of Brazilians who arrived in Canada as visitors, were permitted to stay for a certain period and then sought to extend their stay in Canada? Is that correct?
The Chair: I think it is sought to stay in Canada — that may be one, an application for extension; but what about those whose time expired and they just overstayed. There are two categories there — at least I think there are.
Ms. Chomyn: Thank you for clarifying that. I believe we can provide you with information on the extensions but not on the number who have overstayed.
Senator De Bané: Also, can you find out if there is a trend, if you look to several years?
Ms. Chomyn: Certainly, we would be happy to provide you with that.
The Chair: I think we have some of the statistics on that, but do I understand that we do not track people who overstay? Is that the implication, that if I came in to Canada from Brazil for three months, you have no way of knowing whether I stayed longer?
David Manicom, Director General, Immigration Branch, Citizenship and Immigration Canada: I had the pleasure of meeting some of the members of this committee in Delhi during your travels in India and I am now wearing a new hat.
If I could answer your question, Canada does not have exit controls. When individuals have overstayed their visa, they may come to the attention of Canadian authorities in various ways. Our colleagues at CBSA may interrupt them in their activities, legal or otherwise; they may make an asylum claim; they may make an application for extension of status; they may make an application under a legal category from within Canada. If they simply remain and do not come to the attention of authorities, pending the implementation of any exit controls, we cannot count them.
The Chair: Thank you. We will get those statistics if they are not already covered in our testimony.
[Translation]
Senator Nolin: Thank you for accepting our invitation. I have one question for the representatives of the Canada Border Service. I would like you to explain to me the role of the migration integrity officers.
I want to know how many there are, where they are posted, what their responsibilities are, how that works?
[English]
Mr. Leckey: There are approximately 60 migration integrity officers. I would have to verify the exact number, but it is in the high 50s to 60. They are stationed overseas in 45 to 46 different locations. They were originally airline liaison officers.
Senator Nolin: Airline?
Mr. Leckey: Yes, airline liaison officers back in the 1980s, when Canada, together with a number of other Western countries, began to notice increasing and disturbing abuse of the ease of access to our countries. Their original role was to verify that passengers boarding direct flights to Canada had the correct documentation and would be admitted to Canada on arrival.
Since then, with the growth of travel, the growth of numbers in general, the migration integrity officers overseas have not been able to check every direct flight to Canada, so a very significant part of their duties now is to train airlines themselves to detect fraudulent documentation on check-in and other indicators that would suggest passengers are not bona fide visitors to Canada.
They spend a lot of their time training airlines. They do still check some of the more high-risk flights themselves. Their role has expanded somewhat because by virtue of being overseas in that kind of role for a number of years, they come into contact with individuals in law enforcement, immigration and customs, and they collect a lot of information that is very useful in our intelligence program, which I represent. In general, it helps to influence Canadian policy toward travellers.
Senator Nolin: Coming down to Brazil, do you have any such officers there?
Mr. Leckey: I should have checked, but I believe we have two.
Senator Nolin: I will link my question to the one of the chair. Are those officers in Brazil — let us assume there are two of them — investigating or are they randomly checking airline lists of passengers?
Mr. Leckey: As I say, they train airlines that have direct flights to Canada to check passengers. The flights that they themselves attend will be the ones that have been identified as being more likely to be exploited for improper purposes.
Senator Nolin: Are there many of those flights coming into Canada from Brazil?
Mr. Leckey: I would have to check the exact number of flights.
Senator Nolin: I am talking about problem flights.
Mr. Leckey: No, it would be a small number, but I do not want to leave you with an imprecise impression. I should identify the exact number.
Senator Nolin: I think it is important that we have the exact information.
Mr. Leckey: Yes. I can also provide you with the number of individuals within the last year, and possibly going back several years, who were prevented from boarding such flights to Canada because they were improperly documented.
Senator Nolin: You used the word "fraud." In your effort to dig out that type of information, can you inform us of the possibility of having networks of fraudulent travellers from Brazil to Canada? Can you check that for us?
Mr. Leckey: Yes, I will provide you with a more fulsome answer on that as well.
Senator Nolin: Thank you.
Mr. Leckey: I have been informed by my colleague that we have one migration integrity officer in Brazil.
Senator Finley: I have one or two general type questions and I think perhaps Ms. Chomyn may be the person to answer these.
As my colleague Senator Smith said, probably in an ideal world we would have no visa restrictions with Brazil — our ideal world being Brazil at the moment.
I am not familiar with this process, but how many countries have complete visa-free entry to Canada at this time?
Ms. Chomyn: I am not able to give you that number off the top of my head, sir.
Senator Finley: Would it be more than 50, less than 100?
Ms. Chomyn: More than 50, I would think, mostly in Europe, also the U.S. and Australia, for example.
Senator Finley: Caribbean?
Ms. Chomyn: There would be more visas required than not in the Caribbean countries.
Senator Finley: What about Mexico; do we have visa requirements for Mexico?
Ms. Chomyn: Recently, yes.
Senator Finley: For a while we did not?
Ms. Chomyn: That is correct.
Senator Finley: What would characterize a country like Brazil to have visas required of them but not Mexico — or at least not at one point? I know you read off a list of things that you look at, but I am particularly interested in what we might understand to be the factors that are prohibiting CIC from dismantling the visa requirement for Brazil. Could you narrow that down a little perhaps?
Ms. Chomyn: In fact, the visa requirement was imposed on the two countries for roughly the same reason, which was the rate of asylum claims — and in the case of Mexico in particular, a high number of asylum claims that were abandoned or withdrawn. It was seen to be perhaps an improper use of the asylum process.
As I mentioned in my earlier remarks, the visa was imposed on Brazilian citizens back in the 1980s when there was a sudden and large spike in the number of Brazilian citizens who were found in Canada out of status and considered likely to make refugee claims or asylum claims. I can give you some numbers around that, although it is information back from the 1980s. There were 85 claims by Brazilians in 1985, 169 in 1986 and between January and June 1987, there were almost 1,300 Brazilian citizens reported as being inadmissible to Canada and considered likely to make asylum claims.
The two impositions were roughly for the same reasons.
Senator Finley: These numbers date back to 1980s, some 20 or so years ago, and Brazil has become a much higher employment, better off country. To reverse if I may for a second, do we know how many countries, similar in attraction to Canada, allow Brazilians visa-free travel?
For example, I read recently, I think it was in the Montreal Gazette, a statement that for a chief executive officer of a major Brazilian corporation, it would take 10 days to get a visa, whereas that same day, if he so wished, he could buy a ticket to Paris and be there within a few hours. I am assuming that France does not have a visa requirement for Brazil. Am I right or do you know?
Ms. Chomyn: I am aware that the U.S., the U.K. and Australia do have a visa requirement for Brazil. I believe that the Schengen countries do not but I would have to verify that for you.
Senator Finley: If they are visa free to France, would it likely mean that the rest of the European Union was visa free as well?
Ms. Chomyn: Yes.
Senator Finley: Is there any way of providing some statistics? Without having a lot of staff go digging through this, I would like to know which countries we allow visa free into Canada, and which countries would allow Brazil visa free access to their countries.
I hate to repeat myself, but time and again during this committee investigation, the subject of visas has featured very prominently, as I know it did with the other BRIC nations before my time. We are told — and I do not know whether this is true, perhaps you may comment — that if we were to offer Brazil a visa-free status, they would immediately respond by removing any visa requirements for Canadians going to Brazil, which is why this whole visa thing is becoming important.
Would you comment on whether it is a fact that Brazil would do that, in your view?
If we were to remove them, would that be part of some agreement?
Ms. Chomyn: I am not aware of that being part of any free trade agreement or other discussions. I am personally not aware. I know that Canada certainly does not impose or lift visas on a reciprocal basis. Rather than coming to a negotiated agreement with another country, we prefer to work on the basis of our own country-by-country assessments and to consider, in the decision-making process, those factors that are most important to Canada and in Canada's best interests.
Senator Finley: I have two brief supplementary questions. One, how long does the evaluation process for the visa status of a country generally take? Two, when was the last time that such an evaluation was carried out on Brazil?
Ms. Chomyn: I am sorry. I do not have answers to your questions today, but I will get those answers for you.
Senator Finley: If you would, I would appreciate it. Thank you very much.
The Chair: This may be my own misinformation, but I understand you constantly review all of your statistics in all the countries. Is that how you do it, or do you look at a country every four years unless it is triggered? What is the policy of your policies? How do you go about it?
Mr. Manicom: I would give an initial general response. I think the department can follow up in more detail.
It is not my area of particular expertise, but, generally speaking, there are a series of statistical and other indicators that show us that a country is getting close to consideration for the lifting of a visa. If we have a country with an extremely high refusal rate and very high use of the asylum system, we would not be looking at it closely for potential lifting of visas. When we have countries such as Brazil and a number of other Latin American countries that have a high approval rate, citizens who are becoming lower users of the asylum system, and socio-economic indicators that are starting to change and to approach OECD levels, those sorts of things trigger more detailed country reviews. These then result in the multi-departmental consultative process.
I think that is probably as far as I should go. We can see from the data that Brazil is a country that is moving in the right direction. We can provide the committee more detailed information from our colleagues in our Admissibility Branch, which actually does this work.
The Chair: Thank you. You will provide the statistics on Europe, the Schengen Area. It would be interesting to know when the Schengen Area, minus the U.K., lifted visa requirements. They were haphazard in the past, and I presume it was tied to some Schengen negotiations.
Senator Johnson: My question is based on the Prime Minister's trip to Brazil, in August, and on the opening of three visa application centres in São Paulo, Brasilia and Rio de Janeiro. This was followed by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration saying, in July, that Canada would begin to issue a 10-year multiple-entry visa rather than the previous maximum of five.
What is the expected impact of these two initiatives on facilitating the mobility of students, as tourists and business people, between Canada and Brazil? How do you feel this impact will be measured?
Ms. Chomyn: Certainly the impacts of the VACs are being felt already across the business lines in the sense that the VACs are essentially a service channel that enables people to submit applications and receive guidance on ensuring applications are complete before they are submitted. They are able to track those applications through the system to know where they are at any given point in time. The VAC also assists in returning, to the applicant, the decision that is made by an officer in the visa office. The VACs are not involved in the decision-making process at all. They are simply a front counter, if you will.
However, they do facilitate processing by helping applicants submit a more complete application. They receive fees. They are there to provide advice on how to complete application forms. They are able to tell individuals the status of their applications, which means there is a little more certainty for them in terms of when they may get their decisions.
With the advantage of GCMS, we are able to piggyback on the VAC system to create files more quickly. Before the VACs were open, an applicant would come to the office, submit an application and pay fees. Someone would take that application, create a file and package information. Then it would go to an officer, and then a decision would be taken.
By using GCMS and VACs in concert, all of that file creation work now is done in Canada. When the officers appear at their desks the next morning, their files are ready to go, and they can immediately start making decisions, rather than waiting for the administrative process to occur first. Students, and indeed all business lines there, will benefit from this initiative.
As for multiple-entry visas, the most obvious advantage is the longer your visa is valid, the less frequently you have to return to a VAC or to the visa office to repeat the process. My predecessor was quite vocal in encouraging our immigration program managers around the world, even before the minister's announcement of the extension of the validity period, to issue multiple entries as often as possible.
Senator Johnson: The committee has been told, several times, how difficult it is for Brazilians to get into Canada. I am wondering if these initiatives will facilitate that.
Ms. Chomyn: Even before these initiatives were implemented, the approval rate on Brazilian applications was in the 90 per cent zone. These will make the process faster; decisions will come sooner. Officers can concentrate more on the cases before them. Student cases tend to be a little more complicated and take a little more time because, for example, the officer will have to be satisfied that the finances are in place to support the student in his or her program and life in Canada. There is a medical requirement. These things take a little bit longer. We feel that, with each initiative, we are shortening the waiting time. That applies across the board.
Senator Johnson: Do you know if more staff will be hired by the Canadian missions in Brazil to assist in this?
Ms. Chomyn: As I mentioned, we have already sent a succession of officers on temporary duty to assist in decision making. We have also added an officer and some support staff to the staff complement there. We are constantly monitoring to adjust our resource base to reflect the application volumes. In fact, we are working with a number of stakeholder organizations and other interests to try to project what the volumes may be in the months ahead and to have the resources in place before a spike occurs. This is to avoid a situation where processing times are prolonged because of a gap between resources and applications.
Senator Johnson: Do you happen to know what the numbers of people working in our missions might be?
Ms. Chomyn: In Brazil?
Senator Johnson: Yes.
Ms. Chomyn: Right now, in the visa program, there are 17 staff. Of those, six are decision makers. One is a migration integrity officer, as my colleague referred to earlier. There are also 10 support staff.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: You mentioned students. I have a question. I would like to know, when a student applies for a visa, does he also apply for a visa for his family, if he is married, when he wants to come and study here?
[English]
Ms. Chomyn: Yes, there is that possibility.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: That is when you check that he has enough money to support his family once he gets to Canada, and to pay for his studies?
[English]
Ms. Chomyn: That is correct.
Senator De Bané: I want to give my thoughts, and I would like you to comment. First, when someone wants to immigrate to Canada, irrespective if it is from any country in the world, he has to apply; whether he comes from the European Union, the United States, Great Britain, et cetera, he has to apply and follow the rules. Then there are the people who want to come here for a short stay as tourists or whatever.
I think you would agree with me that under the present president of Brazil and her two predecessors, Cardoso and Lula, I have never read anything saying that they do not respect the fundamental rights of their citizens. From the numbers you gave us, we see that there are very few people who can talk about being persecuted or whatever.
Because of this tiny group that tries to squeeze in fraudulently, my reaction is that we are imposing on all Brazilians a regime to correct our flawed policies about deporting illegal people in this country. Perhaps we could change that if we could deport, quickly and efficiently, people who are not supposed to be here, who are abusing the system. There are not very many, but because of them, we are imposing a regime on all Brazilians. Is there a flaw in my reasoning? Please be brutally frank.
The Chair: And brutally short, please, because we are running out of time.
Mr. Manicom: I do not know if there is a flaw in your reasoning, senator, but we do have to realize that Brazil is still a developing country with 100 million or so desperately poor people, in spite of the heroic efforts of their recent presidents, and that countries approach gradually a level at which we feel we can accommodate visa-free travel to Canada. We do not know, frankly, what the behaviour would be of Brazilians, very poor middle-class and otherwise, if any of them could board an aircraft at any time and come to Canada's borders.
One could speculate that we would have a fairly significant influx, not necessarily entirely of asylum seekers, but of individuals wanting to work without work permits and so forth. Those are the sorts of considerations that the Government of Canada takes into account.
The visa regime is somewhat unpleasant, but I would argue that you pay $75, you or your travel agent drops the documents off at a visa application centre and, on average, a week or so later you have your visa. It is perhaps not a horrific burden, in the context of organizing your entire trip, and 95 per cent or so are approved.
The visa screen is there. We try to make it as efficient as we can. It is an imposition, that is true, and it is true that all citizens of the country to some extent pay the price for the actions of a relatively small number.
I would reiterate — and my colleagues from CBSA perhaps have something to add — that Brazil has made huge strides. It is nevertheless a country with a per capita standard of living a fraction of Canada's, with a large, poor population. I think São Paulo alone has something like 8 million people living in what we normally refer to as slums. That is part of the context and reality of Brazil as well.
Senator Downe: I will be short. In the written presentation, you indicated there were 60,000 applicants for visas. How many of those were approved? Was it 60,000 as well?
Ms. Chomyn: There was a 95 per cent acceptance rate in Brazil.
Senator Downe: And the fee is $75 per visa?
Ms. Chomyn: For a single-entry visa.
Senator Downe: And for the multi-entry visa, what is the fee?
Ms. Chomyn: $150.
Senator Downe: Is the operation self-funding? Do you generate enough revenue to pay for the employees working in the visa section in Brazil?
Ms. Chomyn: No. The revenues earned from the visa program do not return to the visa program. They go into the Consolidated Revenue Fund, and the amount that is generated in the form of visa fees is not sufficient to run the program.
Senator Downe: I see in your presentation as well that you had to send 10 temporary officials down to help with the backlog. How large is the backlog before you send people in?
Ms. Chomyn: That is a very good question. I will be frank with you and offer that I am not aware of exactly the methodology that is used for this, although we do meet regularly and we do talk about the conditions in each of our missions. In terms of a threshold, I cannot give you that number today, but I will be happy to come back with additional information to explain how we make those decisions.
Senator Downe: How many of the officials working in the visa section are locally engaged and how many are Canadian citizens?
Ms. Chomyn: I will refer to my notes. Of the 17 staff who are there, 4 are Canada-based officers; those are visa officers who are sent from Canada on posting and who would reside in Brazil for a period of two years normally. There are 13 locally engaged staff who are hired in Brazil.
The Chair: Thank you, senators, for efficiently ending on time. I thank our visitors for the information that they have given.
You can see from the questions that this has preoccupied the committee; the visa, the entry, the security and safety for Canadians and the efficiency of business are all tied together. You have certainly given us some of the information that we were seeking, and we hope that you will provide the rest in a written form. I thank you on behalf of the committee for appearing.
Honourable senators, as our second panel this afternoon, we have with us from the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada, Mr. Paul Davidson, President and CEO; and from the Association of Canadian Community Colleges, Ms. Marie-Josée Fortin, Director, International Partnerships.
To our witnesses, we have had great interest in what appears to be a more intense involvement of education between Brazil and Canada. We are uncertain at the levels. We know there is an appetite for learning the English language from our Canadian sources, but we also know that the relationship is deeper. We are just not sure whether it is becoming more activated or whether it has been a steady progression. You two are resources in giving us this information, as this is what you preoccupy yourselves with day by day. We know of your work. You have testified before us before. Welcome again to our committee.
Paul Davidson, President and CEO, Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada: Thank you. I am Paul Davidson from the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada. We represent 95 universities and degree- granting colleges across the country. It is great to be with you today. Last year, I appeared before the committee just before AUCC's mission to India. We took 15 presidents to India, and I can tell you that that mission is paying large dividends to Canada in advancing closer research collaboration and increasing student mobility in both directions. That is good for both countries and for our economy.
In fact, international education in Canada, primarily the recruitment of international students to study here, contributes more than $6.5 billion to Canada's economy. That is larger than the export of coal or of softwood lumber. Just as important, it ensures Canadian students are studying with, and learning from, students from around the world.
Building on that are the linkages that are formed in what Kevin Lynch called "educational connectivity," especially in the area of collaborative global research at scale.
[Translation]
I am delighted that Brazil has become a strategic priority for the Government of Canada. Brazil will soon be regarded as one of the five great economic powers. This country still had resources enabling it to invest at the end of the world recession, and it is investing massively in higher education and research. Many Canadian universities have forged strong links with Brazil in recent years, and this country has become a strategic priority for Canadian universities over the past 18 months.
Through cooperation, we hope to make Canada a partner of choice for research in order to stimulate innovation within the world economy and foster mutual prosperity.
[English]
In April 2012, just a few months from now, AUCC will lead a mission to Brazil involving over 25 university presidents. We were very pleased that Prime Minister Harper announced, during his recent visit to Brazil, that His Excellency the Governor General will lead our mission.
However, it is not just about high-profile visits. It is about strategic engagement in advance of and following such missions. That is why AUCC held a two-day workshop, last June, on developing a higher education strategy for Brazil. The event was a success. We had over 100 participants from about 50 Canadian universities, Brazilian universities, government departments and research funding agencies.
Emerging from that conversation was a clear sense of the scope, scale and urgency in engaging with Brazil.
I want to speak about scope, scale and urgency for a moment. Like Canada, Brazil is vast geographically, and we share many sectoral strengths, such as agriculture and aquaculture, energy, forestry, aerospace, biotechnology, nanotechnology and ICT. Canada's universities recognize that there is room for all of them to advance their relationship with Brazil.
On the question of scale, I have mentioned that Brazil will become the world's fifth largest economy within, some say, the life of this Canadian Parliament. This growth is creating demand for semi-skilled, skilled and professional labour. Brazil is investing in a globally prepared young workforce and is seeking to increase research capacity and opportunities for international engagement.
Earlier this year, Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff announced university scholarships for 75,000 Brazilian undergraduate and Ph.D. students to study abroad. Canadian universities want to host these students.
Again to give a sense of the scale, Brazil is already producing twice as many Ph.D.s as Canada. Brazil awarded about 11,000 Ph.D.s in 2008, versus about 5,400 in Canada in 2009. The Economist recently featured a ranking of Latin American universities; 65 of the top 200 are in Brazil. The University of São Paulo came first. By working together, Canada's universities, the private sector and government can leverage our combined capacity to strengthen our relationships with Brazil.
Let me turn to the question of urgency. The world is literally beating a path to Brazil's door. Canada is not the biggest or fastest, so we have to be the smartest.
[Translation]
Brazil is seeking partnerships and is prepared to make investments. Right now Canada has a nanosecond to take advantage of this opportunity and make a commitment to this Latin-American power. Let's seize this opportunity.
Given the capability of its economy and its public finances, Canada is in a position to beat out its competitors if it acts intelligently.
[English]
I have to come back to the point of urgency. To give a sense of how quickly the global international education field is changing, between the time I last appeared before this committee a few months ago and today, China has increased enrolment at the university level by 1.5 million students. We do not yet have a million students studying at the university level in Canada.
While I welcome this committee's formal review, I urge each of you in your own roles in your own caucuses to advocate moving swiftly to seize these opportunities. There are times when I despair, times when Canada seems to almost deliberately miss shining opportunities.
I am very pleased to see some recent signs of hope. For example, last week the government announced the creation of an expert panel to advise on the creation of an international education strategy. That is smart and that is strategic. We need to work together.
In particular, in the case of Brazil, we are seeing important connections being made across the Government of Canada. For example, AUCC is working in concert with the Brazil-Canada science and technology committee with regard to our mission, to find ways of leveraging our activities with theirs. I understand there is keen interest to build an element of Canada's forthcoming digital strategy into our mission in Brazil.
I also want to point to the Prime Minister's active engagement in Brazil, last summer, in his creation of a private- sector CEO forum. We will be engaging with that forum to find the linkages. There are signs for hope in the relationship.
There are also some lessons learned. We have made impressive gains in our work with India. It was nice to see David Manicom appear before you because he helped significantly improve the visa-processing situation in India when he was posted there.
Following our work in India, we have also learned some lessons. One is the need to ensure that the Government of Canada can make tangible commitments when these missions occur.
With India, we had hoped that the government would be able to match the efforts of Canada's universities. We were able to announce $4 million in scholarships from the universities' own resources. They were welcome, and they have increased the flow of students. India's Minister of Human Resources and Development was gracious at our announcement, in India, of those scholarships. However, he gently reminded us that India had 550 million people to educate and 1,400 universities to build. Essentially, he told us to let him know when Canada was going to be serious and could play on a bigger scale.
We do not want that to happen again with Brazil, which is why our pre-budget submission to the Standing Committee on Finance has called for a major investment to facilitate global collaborative research at scale. We are hopeful that come next April we can all be proud of Canada's commitment to building these links in the global economy.
I could go on, but I have a colleague from the colleges' community, and the real value in these exchanges is the opportunity to question and answer. Thank you for your keen interest in Brazil and in the role of universities in advancing Canada's relationship.
[Translation]
Once again, thank you for all your efforts in our relations with this major partner.
Marie-Josée Fortin, Director, International Partnerships, Association of Canadian Community Colleges (ACCC): The Association of Canadian Community Colleges has been the national and international voice of 150 colleges, institutes, cegeps and polytechnics for almost 40 years. With campuses in some 1,000 urban, rural and remote communities, these institutions provide educational services for learners of all ages and from all socioeconomic backgrounds. They are the advanced skills educators of choice, responding to the needs of the economic and social sectors.
Since the end of the 1970s, ACCC and its members have implemented almost 700 international projects in 90 countries for a value of over $450 million.
Today, I want to share with you a wonderful story of a partnership that has lasted for a decade between ACCC and the Brazilian Ministry of Education (SETEC) and the Council of Federal Professional, Scientific and Technological Institutions (CONIF).
The Lula government implemented programs to increase inclusion and to promote economic and social development that enabled 24 million people to get out of poverty and 36 million to enter the middle class. Over this same time period, the number of federal education institutions rose from 140 campuses in 2003 to 354 campuses in 2011.
The Brazilian Ministry of Education was impressed by the know-how and capacity of Canadian colleges to respond to the real needs of local employers and integrate marginalized learners into our institutions.
It was within the framework of the program to increase inclusion that ACCC supported its Brazilian partners in the implementation of the Mulheres Mil project, with financial support from the Canadian government (through CIDA) and the Brazilian Agency for Cooperation (ABC).
Mulheres Mil is a pilot project that was set up in 13 federal institutes in the north and north-east of the country with the goal of improving the lives of 1,000 Brazilian women. A bold and unprecedented project in the network of Federal Institutes, Mulheres Mil challenged us to address the exclusion of young women and adults who are economically and socially vulnerable. In addition to the primary objectives of encouraging women to return to school and acquire professional qualifications, the project had other benefits that are not easy to measure, such as helping them to rediscover their citizenship, restore their self-esteem and improve family and community relationships. In short: these women have started to believe in themselves again.
The new Brazilian president, Dilma Rousseff launched her program, Brazil without Misery, with the aim of eradicating the extreme poverty that still affects some 16 million Brazilians.
It is in this context that on August 11 the Brazilian government announced that the Mulheres Mil project would now become a national program that would benefit 100,000 women from all regions of Brazil.
As well, the Brazilian partners would like to work with us in other ways. In October 2010 in Rio de Janeiro, ACCC and its members were invited to the first Brazil-Canada forum.
More than 60 Canadian delegates attended. This forum resulted in the signature of 46 MOUs for student and teacher exchanges, as well as for applied research.
On July 26, the president of the republic launched the Science without Borders program. The project intends to grant up to 75,000 scholarships, with 15,000 in the field of vocational and technical education. Our Brazilian partners have identified Canada as their first choice.
Foreign students in Canada contribute $6.5 billion to the economy, create over 83,000 jobs and produce over $291 million in tax revenue.
Canadian colleges and institutes would like to host Brazilian students. However, we are limited by certain financial constraints and competition from other countries that offer free tuition or scholarships. Unfortunately, we cannot offer these types of benefits.
If we want to attract Brazilian students to Canada starting next fall and be competitive with other countries, we need the financial support of the federal government.
Our Brazilian partners will be in Montreal November 14 to 18 for the second Canada forum on vocational and technical education. This scholarship program will be at the heart of the discussion with the aim of coming up with concrete solutions to welcome the maximum number of Brazilian students.
I would like to take this opportunity to invite you to participate in the Brazil-Canada forum that will bring together rectors from the federal institutes, representatives from the Brazilian Ministry of Education and presidents from Canadian colleges and institutes.
[English]
Senator Downe: You indicated in your presentation that there will be 25 university presidents going on the mission with the Governor General to Brazil. Are they from all provinces of Canada?
Mr. Davidson: Yes, we are pleased by the degree of interest and participation in the mission. We are confirming the final participation, but we will have presidents from right across the country, from all types of universities — the research intensive universities, the undergraduate universities, the comprehensive universities. It will be a very broad mission.
Senator Downe: Invitations went out to all the universities and it was up to them if they wanted to participate, is that correct?
Mr. Davidson: Yes.
Senator Downe: Were community college presidents invited as well?
Mr. Davidson: They are not taking part in this mission but AUCC, along with the Association of Canadian Community Colleges and other partners have formed a Canadian consortium for international education marketing, and we work together to advance Canada's brand internationally.
Senator Downe: As a clarification, you indicate in your presentation that Brazil announced there would be 75,000 scholarships awarded to study outside Brazil. We had a witness from the government a few weeks ago who indicated the figure was 100,000.
Mr. Davidson: There is also an additional 25,000 scholarships that have been committed by the private sector of Brazil.
Senator Downe: So the total would be 100,000?
Mr. Davidson: Yes.
Senator Downe: Have you studied the success Australia has had in attracting international students? I understand over 7 per cent of international students go to Australia and our figure is less than 3 per cent. What programs do they have that we should be copying?
Mr. Davidson: Ms. Fortin may want to comment, but I will begin. Australia was very early in the game in recognizing the value of international students to their universities, their economy and their country. The federal government of Australia has committed significant resources to a coordinated international education marketing campaign. There is much to learn from that.
Since I was last before you, there have been other lessons to learn as well. It is important to attract students from a range of countries around the world, and to ensure that the students are well received and provided a safe, secure and welcoming environment. There were some difficult incidents in Australia that have led to significant international relations challenges between Australian and India.
The other element to keep in mind is that international students bring huge value to Canada's campuses or to a host nation's campuses in terms of what they bring with language skills, culture, economic and diplomatic links, but we cannot rely on them as cash cows for supporting a strong higher education system in Canada.
Senator Downe: You indicated Australia has a coordinated education promotion. Do they also subsidize scholarships or grants for every student?
Mr. Davidson: Not for every student, but they do have a suite of activities and programs to attract students, and to retain top students as well.
Senator D. Smith: I want to ask how Canada is viewed by Brazilians as sort of a higher education destination compared to the States, leading European countries, the U.K. and Australia.
I cannot resist pointing out that I know a young Australian woman whom I met about a year and a half ago who came to York University after doing research. The Economist puts out a ranking of the top 100 business schools in the world every year, which came out last week.
It blew some hats off. The Schulich School of Business at York University was in the top 10 in the world for the first time. It was just a couple behind Columbia and well ahead of Wharton at the University of Pennsylvania. You have to hand it to Schulich. They made it to the top 10 in the world. Is this perceived in Brazil as a strong destination?
Mr. Davidson: I will talk about Canada's brand. Internationally, the world is very envious of Canada's position, economic situation, fiscal position, and of our capacity to invest strategically. The opportunities that are present — particularly for Canada's universities — are very strong. The Brazilians see that successive governments in Canada have invested in our research infrastructure to create globally ready, globally engaged institutions. This is a national platform across the country that is available to attract top research collaboration.
There is a keen interest in that. I would say that Canada's positioning is very enviable around the issue of student mobility. We are known for high quality undergraduate and graduate education. You have alluded to some of the rankings and we take pride in the success of all the universities across the country.
We are known for our excellence and affordability. That is something that Canadian students will give us a run at sometimes, but by international standards we have one of the most affordable and accessible systems in the world. The last thing we are known for is a safe, secure and welcoming environment. We often say internationally that when you come to study in Canada, you will not know who the international students and domestic students are. That creates a climate of learning that is unparalleled in the world.
[Translation]
Ms. Fortin: I would like to add a point. When the president announced the 75,000 scholarships, the Brazilian Ministry of Education immediately telephoned our offices and asked me to come to Brazil to help them draft the call for the vocational and technical section, because their first choice, as I mentioned, is Canada. We have a long-standing relationship with them, there is a climate of trust, Brazil and Canada have a lot of points in common too, aside from the language, in both social and economic terms. So that is important.
For them, the first initiative they took was to ask me to come and help them, and to take as many students as possible, within our limits, of course.
[English]
Senator D. Smith: My last question is for both of you. You made the point that Canada is a good destination for research collaboration for Brazil. I will ask you to make the case of why Brazil is a good research partner for Canada. What is the other side of the coin?
Mr. Davidson: Parts of the answer is that within the life of this Parliament, Brazil will be a top five global power. We need to be aware of that. We have historic links with Europe and geographic links with the U.S., but we have to be intentional about pursuing these new and emerging markets. Universities are an unleveraged asset to do that.
Our economies have many similarities and the research challenges are similar, whether in clean energy, nanotechnology and others. In terms of the business case for Brazil, I might say again that Brazil's research infrastructure is every bit as competitive as Canada's in certain sectors and we need to link up and work with them now. We need to build a generation of research collaboration that will lead to prosperity both there and here.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I would like to ask whether one of you can answer a question about Brazilian businesses. Are Brazilian businesses associated with the world of education? And my second question: do Brazilian businesses invest in the faculties?
Ms. Fortin: The way it's organized, the federal institutions report to the government, so there is not really any investment in the institutions on the part of the private sector. Still, they work with the private sector. But there are SENACs, which are other institutions that are managed by the private sector. There is close cooperation, as there is here, between the government, the institutions, the educational milieu and the private sector.
And I would like to point out that there are a lot of businesses, especially in the mining sector, such as Rio Tinto, Alcan, and Vale, that work in both countries and with whom we have close relations between our institutions in Canada, the institutions in Brazil and the production sector.
Actually, Rio Tinto asked to have some Brazilian students as trainees under our agreement.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I suppose to train them in engineering.
Mr. Davidson: I would like to add this. This is the reason why we are happy that Jacynthe Côté, the CEO of Rio Tinto Alcan was on the expert panel that the government set up on the international education strategy.
[English]
Mr. Davidson: We are very pleased about that. To pick up on the Rio Tinto example, we often think of research happening only in a few institutions. However at the University of Quebec at Chicoutimi, Rio Tinto Alcan has been an established partner. That institution, in conjunction with the NRC facility in Chicoutimi, is a world leader. Brazilian researchers want to come and work in Chicoutimi and at the same time, those from Chicoutimi want to work in Brazil. That is the kind of research collaboration we envisage in working in a strategic way with Brazil.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: My final question follows on Senator Smith's. You explained that Canada seems to be an excellent destination for Brazilian students. Do you know how many Brazilian students want to go and study in other countries? Do you have any figures on that? You said that Canada is a favoured destination, but how do we rank compared with other OECD countries, the United States and Australia? Do you have any student percentages?
[English]
Mr. Davidson: I would be happy to provide written information of the details. I can say that — in the example of university students from Brazil in Canada right now — we have approximately 100,000 international students studying in Canada, but only 500 from Brazil.
To look at another part of the puzzle, we know that there are 17,000 Brazilians students coming to study English or French in Canada at the language schools. We are hopeful this new international education strategy will look at how we ensure there is a pathway from the first language experiences to the college experience and to a university experience. That is a question of alignment, purpose, and working together to advance Canada.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: We would certainly appreciate having the statistics, if you can send them to us because they might be useful when it comes time to write the report. Thank you very much.
[English]
Senator Finley: Thank you for your fascinating presentations. I have two questions.
Toward the end of Madam Fortin's presentation, she mentioned that if we want to attract Brazilians students to Canada next fall and be competitive with other countries, we need the financial support of the federal government.
I also understand from Mr. Davidson's presentation that you have appeared before the standing committee for finance in the House of Commons. I am not aware of what you were asking for at this point in time and I do not know if that would cover what Madam Fortin's expression of financial support was. Are these numbers public? Could you give us an idea of what kind of what kind of numbers we are talking about, and where the support would be directed?
[Translation]
Ms. Fortin: Of course, the Department of Finance has announced $10 million for the recruitment of foreign students, with the announcement of one panel last week. But if we look at the urgency surrounding Brazil, France has already signed an MOU offering free tuition. Portugal has also signed an MOU. I am talking about the college level. I know less about the universities, but I checked with my colleagues from the Department last Friday and those two countries have already signed.
Senator De Bané: It is free.
Ms. Fortin: It is free because the scholarships the President of Brazil is offering cover travel, everything but tuition fees. We have to agree.
Our problem here in Canada is that we have our tuition fees and we have Canadian tuition fees, for Canadian students, and those for foreign students. So when we ask for $10,000 to $20,000 a year, how can we compete with France, which is offering free tuition? They also want to get some students, they do not want it to be just a one-way street. But how are we going to send as many Canadian students, how do we do it? We do not have any money, or very little money, to pay for this type of program for Canadian students.
We are in a bit of an urgent situation because the calls are about to begin in the college sector. They want to launch the first call in December or January. So what do we propose?
We had the same situation with Chile two years ago. We had an MOU and we lost a lot after one year, not because they did not want to send them here, but because Australia offered free scholarships. The private sector invested too. So our problem is not that people do not like us, but that we cannot offer the same thing as the other countries.
[English]
Mr. Davidson: In direct response to your question, senator, we made a written submission to the standing committee on finance where we make the argument. We have not provided a costed proposal yet. We plan to do that in the third week of November. Given the changing global climate and fiscal circumstances, we tend to put our numbers out closer to budget day than earlier, but we will have a detailed proposal on this.
If I could pick up on Ms. Fortin's point and the need for urgency on this, other countries are moving forward too. We know at the university level, the U.K. has made a commitment for 10,000 students; we understand the U.S. has made a commitment for 10,000 students.
With great respect, there have been some occasions — Chile is one and India is another one last week — where we experience what I call the Canadian moment. We build the relationship to a certain point, we want to do things effectively together, and then it comes time to put resources on the table and we look at the ceiling and the floor and get back on our airplane and leave.
We have to find a way to be able to seize these opportunities when they are presented. I think there are opportunities in this budget cycle that the federal government, if it chooses, could expedite and accelerate.
Senator Finley: You are suggesting, if I can concatenate the various things you have said, that we provide free university tuition to Brazilian students — and perhaps not just Brazilian, there could be other places in other times. Is that what you are suggesting? Perhaps at $20,000 a pop, perhaps on par with Australia's 10,000 people, that is a lot of money. As Henry Ford said, I could sell a car to everyone in the world if I gave it for free.
Mr. Davidson: We want to be careful. We have a very high quality product.
Senator Finley: We have a lot of Canadian kids who cannot afford to go to university. How do we cope with that issue? Do we say all tuition is free? I am not being combative, I hope; I am just trying to understand.
[Translation]
Ms. Fortin: No. We are perhaps not talking about all free tuition fees. What they want is for Canada to make an effort not to ask for tuition fees from foreign students. If we could have an MOU as we do with the francophone countries. For example, in Quebec, French exchange students pay the same tuition fees as Canadian students. There is already an opening. We are showing that we can open the doors, that we really want to welcome as many students as possible. When we met with CAPES, the agency managing the scholarships, we were told there was some leeway for paying part of the tuition fees. We already have the advantage of having tuition fees that are a bit lower than in certain countries for foreign students, but if we could have an agreement between our two countries to at least reduce tuition fees, it would be a big step in the right direction.
[English]
Mr. Davidson: To pick up on that, it is a valid question. We would be very concerned if suddenly international students were arriving with no tuition fees, and the pressure that would put on governments in terms of domestic students for sure, but I think there are ways of providing incentives. The current regime with the Vaniers and Bantings are important signals in that regard, but it does come back to a question of scale and urgency.
Often we get the next question, well, can the provinces not step up? Well, they may be able to step up in some ways, but if we wait for a federal-provincial agreement on this, we will have lost our window, as we have lost it before.
There may be a role for the private sector in this. We are working with the CEO's Forum on Brazil and with the Council of Chief Executives. We are saying that this is something that goes beyond the traditional boundaries of federal-provincial jurisdiction on education. This is national interest about how Canada is positioned in the 21st century and this is a time to step forward.
Senator Finley: I also sit on the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance, so I look forward to meeting with you again on that particular issue.
The Chair: Senator Robichaud would like a supplementary on that point that you made, if that is okay?
Senator Finley: Sure, go ahead.
[Translation]
Senator Robichaud: When you say that foreign students would come here and be asked to pay the same tuition fees as Canadian students, that means then that we would have to compensate the universities and community colleges for their loss of revenue, does it not?
Ms. Fortin: Yes, solutions would have to found to make up for their loss of revenue.
Senator Robichaud: The presentation that you made and that perhaps you will make to the Senate Finance Committee will be with that end in mind, will it not?
Ms. Fortin: Absolutely.
[English]
Mr. Davidson: If I could add, I would come back again to our understanding of the value of the sector to Canada's economy. The most recent evaluation was a $6.5 billion contribution to Canada's economy — 300,000 additional economic impacts, and that is distributed across the country. For example, the University of Moncton has 1,200 international students. Many of them are paying their full freight and then some; and many of them are choosing to stay in New Brunswick and make a living and build businesses.
I will draw another example closer to Senator Finley's home. Brock University partners with the Chamber of Commerce so that international students in their first year create a business with the local entrepreneurs in the Niagara region. That is so they are invested in the Niagara region during the course of their studies and will want to stay in Canada to create jobs and prosperity.
Yes, there will be a cost to it, but if the minimum is a $6.5 billion "economic contribution," that is more than the export of softwood lumber. If we could have had a fraction of the time and interest and attention that has been paid to resolving that issue, addressing some forward-looking issues such as international education mobility, Canada could beat the world.
Senator Finley: I do not disagree with you. In fact, my second question relates to the quality issue. Senator Smith earlier mentioned the fact that York had arrived at number six in business schools and was driving Toronto crazy. I hope he also understands that in recent times higher education list of the top 200 educational institutions in the world, that University of Toronto was the top Canadian, at number 19. He conveniently passed that one over.
The interesting thing, however, is that the only Latin American university in the top 200 was the University of São Paulo. This is for the whole of Latin America. In contrast with this, the Australians had seven positions in the top 200; China had seven, there were four from Hong Kong, and Canada, I am pleased to say, had nine. Obviously the quality of our education and our university education far surpasses anything that is available in Latin America and is certainly competitive, at the very least, and perhaps better than anything offered by China and Australia. Is it not our quality, first, that we should be selling, as opposed to financial assistance? That is the first part of my question.
Second, if USP is the only university in Latin America to make the top 200, is there not a business opportunity for Canadian industries and academics and university professionals to help assist, develop and in fact make business at improving the quality of university education within Brazil itself?
Mr. Davidson: This kind of educational connectivity, this kind of joint research collaboration, is a race to the top in terms of improving quality. You are absolutely right that the first point we sell when we sell internationally is the excellence of Canada's post-secondary system. I say "post-secondary system" deliberately. Both the colleges and the universities are working together to brand Canada as a preferred destination.
In terms of improving the quality, how does that occur? It occurs by putting young academics together to solve grand problems in the world. It comes by engaging with leading private sector firms, both in Brazil and Canada, who want to invest in a certain area and push us all to do better.
It is always a challenge with 95 members to make an example, and you have referred to the University of Toronto. The University of Toronto and University of Western Ontario have done extraordinary work collaboratively. Universities are partnering together with the state granting agency for São Paulo. To give you a sense of their ambition, 1 per cent of gross revenues from the state of São Paulo goes to research and innovation. That is at the state level and is $500 million U.S. a year. They are the group we are negotiating with on some of these arrangements. They have resources to put on the table, and they are prepared to put those resources on the table. Like good business people, they are shopping the world and will ask for some understanding.
Senator De Bané: It seems obvious to me that this sector represents a lot of advantages to Canada. Can you explain to me why Australia has that percentage of their students in their universities? Foreigners are almost three times more than the Canadian universities. What do they offer the foreign students in order to have such a large group of foreign students? What do they offer them to attract more than two times and almost three times more than Canada? Do you know, Mr. Davidson?
Mr. Davidson: I can point to some things. First, they were in early in the international education marketing. If I may, it was precisely at the time of program review in Canada, when Canada's representation on education matters was cut in the mid-1990s. That is when Australia started to turn up the dial in this area.
Second, they were geographically focused. They targeted a handful of countries and worked it deliberately. With regard to incentives, they provide a range of incentives to students and to other governments to make sure they recognize that there is more than simply the educational experience or the research experience, but that there are strategic interests involved, and so the Government of Australia supports those efforts.
Senator De Bané: You gave us the numbers of how many students we have out of the 100,000 that come from Brazil, which is very small. I say that Canada, which has double the population of Australia and has first-rate universities, has not been able to be as attractive. Can you give us a document that we can reflect upon, comparing what they have done and what we should be doing?
Mr. Davidson: Certainly.
Senator De Bané: Thank you.
[Translation]
You told us that the president of Brazil would like to give away 70,000 scholarships to university- or college-level students to work around the world. And obviously, this country, whose economy is developing at a very impressive rate, realizes that there is a shortage of engineers, specialists and technicians qualified to work in its industries.
If you could send the chair some precise recommendations saying what we could do to be competitive with the other countries, it would be very interesting for our committee.
Ms. Fortin: We can easily send you some data and information.
[English]
Senator De Bané: Mr. Davidson, it would be very interesting to have your view, because you have studied that topic so much.
Mr. Davidson: I would be pleased to provide that.
Senator De Bané: This is what we should be doing to be really competitive.
Mr. Davidson: We will also be participating in the expert panel that the government has convened.
The Chair: There has been information from both sources to this committee previously. I am sure they welcome your suggestion. They will send you more. I receive it regularly, and I appreciate it. I am sure the entire committee now will be circulated. There is an interest.
[Translation]
Senator Nolin: Ms. Fortin, I am very impressed with your wonderful partnership story. I would like to hear a bit more from you. My colleagues have talked about importing students, but in this project, it is your services there that are being used. I would like to hear you say a bit more about that. How did it begin? Was it CIDA that put you onto it? Was it one of your personal contacts? I'd like you to tell us how this relationship got started.
Ms. Fortin: I can tell you straight off that, be it Chile or Brazil, the connection for receiving foreign students has always been part of past cooperation projects. We had already been working in Brazil for a few years when we were approached. The Brazilians came to visit our colleges.
Senator Nolin: You used the word "college" in your text. These are Canadian colleges?
Ms. Fortin: Yes, they came to see what we were doing here and they really liked the social aspect, the access and recognition of background aspect, the way we integrated people who did not necessarily have the studies, but who wanted to go back to school, the way we integrated them in our institutions.
This was at the same time as President Lula announced his new program. We set up a pilot project. You have the CD-ROM in your folder. Some women are telling their stories. It is fantastic.
Senator Nolin: I am going to learn a lot; are there subtitles?
Ms. Fortin: Yes, because it is in Portuguese. We also have a book that tells the story of these women. Since the population is so large, the federal institutions in Brazil were very elitist; if you had money or a good position or you had studied, you were okay. But ordinary people could not get into these institutions.
Senator Nolin: The number of campuses has more than doubled in less than 10 years.
Ms. Fortin: Exactly and it goes on. This is all interconnected with the Lula program, which is continuing now with President Dilma's program. This is the Canadian brand because it's our know-how that has been transferred to Brazil and that gave rise to the Thousand Women project. It is now a national, country-wide project. By 2014, 100,000 women will have access to this program. It is a point of Canadian pride and it was achieved with an investment of about $2.5 million from the Canadian government. It turned out so well and it enabled us to build something.
It's because of this relationship and this project that we were asked to continue because there's no longer any funding from CIDA for Brazil. It's finished.
So they asked us to continue working with them, doing exchanges on an equal footing and receiving foreign students.
Senator Nolin: I'm going to ask you to come back a bit to what you just said. You talked about exchanges on an equal footing and I'd like to understand a little better.
As your part of the partnership, some Canadian institutions went to Brazil, to this northeast region of Brazil, set up there and fostered the integration of Brazilian women.
Ms. Fortin: Our colleges worked with the Brazilian institutions. This was for short periods. The Brazilians also came to our institutions. We didn't set up there.
Senator Nolin: But you provided services there. How many Canadian colleges were involved in the project?
Ms. Fortin: There were nine of them from across Canada. And it was the Brazilians who came and selected their Canadian partners.
Senator Nolin: And for this explosion of the same program across the country, what sort of involvement for Canadian colleges do you predict this will mean?
Ms. Fortin: They definitely want to continue the relationship. They now have a research centre in Brasilia for the Mulheres Mil program, that is, the Thousand Women program. They want to continue with the support of Canadian colleges.
At present, since our colleges are very dedicated, they do it voluntarily to some extent. When they're in Brazil, they participate and do a lot of exchanges. Also, the 46 MOUs that have been signed serve to maintain these relationships. They come to us and we go to them; but it's with our own money from Canadian colleges.
Senator Nolin: You talked about an equal footing. That means that Canada would have to reciprocate with the Brazilian students, if I understand correctly?
Ms. Fortin: With regard to receiving Brazilian students, yes. They are already investing to send students. They cover everything, except for tuition fees; but with one thing to bear in mind, though, because there is some flexibility to pay a little. They do not want one-way relationships. They also want young Canadians to attend their institutions. As we discussed during my meeting in August, we certainly cannot guarantee that we are going to have an even exchange of 200 students. Our students need to open up to this possibility, of studying abroad, and not just in Europe.
[English]
Mr. Davidson: I acknowledge that Canada's universities have engaged in Brazil for a number of years, in particular through programs like the University Program for Cooperation and Development, sponsored by CIDA. The Students for Development program has also provided opportunities for university students to get experience in Brazil. I want to draw your attention to a new program offered at the University of Guelph that gives undergrad students an opportunity to work in environmental reclamation activities and corporate social responsibility activities paid for by a Canadian multinational operating in Brazil. These kinds of models are really exciting. The reason I come back to that is twofold. I have talked about the importance of research and innovation and faculty engagement, but it is also about young people in Canada having these experiences. We need a generation of young Canadians that are outward-looking and seizing entrepreneurial opportunities around the world.
If I may close, Madam Chair, you have heard me say this before: Here we are in 2011 and only 3 per cent of Canadian university students are studying abroad in any given year. That is half the rate of Germany. It is much less than the rate in the United States. If I can push it even further, less than one in ten Canadian students will leave their province during the course of their studies.
As we approach 2017, we think about the transformative experiences that we have had, it is that opportunity to see the world, see the country, bring back what we have learned and forge prosperity with that.
[Translation]
Senator Nolin: I hope that you'll be invited to take part in this committee's work in order to advise the Canadian government. Clearly you have the passion, the dynamism and the know-how to advance this file.
By the way, since I'm a Montrealer, I could have talked about McGill University, which beat all the other colleges that were mentioned to the finish line, but I refrained from doing so.
[English]
The Chair: Careful; we have not covered the West, where the really good universities are.
Senator Mahovlich: I am centrally located. Toronto is known for its universities. We have had quite a few Chinese students. At graduation day at the University of Toronto, the top students were all Chinese and in the 90 per cent bracket. There seemed to be a lot of Chinese. How many students from China come to Canada in one year?
Mr. Davidson: The number in Brazil is 500 students. For China, in the university system, the figure is 18,000. China is the number one source of international students. They do very well in Canada. Some stay in Canada and some return to China and will build those linkages.
Senator Mahovlich: You said that 75,000 scholarships are awarded to Brazilians. What is the percentage for Canada? What do you think we might attract here?
Mr. Davidson: That is a great question. It is something I would invite senators to reflect on that.
Senator Mahovlich: Could we handle them?
Mr. Davidson: Yes, we can because Canada's universities and colleges have the capacity to do that.
Senator Mahovlich: You need some government help.
Mr. Davidson: We do need some help.
Senator Mahovlich: I can understand that.
Mr. Davidson: I will make the point again that there are financial arguments but there are also the arguments of living, studying and learning with international students. I do not think we will ever be able to afford to send every Canadian overseas, but we can afford to ensure that every classroom has international students in it so that Canadian students are living, learning and working with students from around the world.
Senator Mahovlich: I was over in India where they told me that 80,000 Indian students go to the United States. Does the United States have incentives for those students?
Mr. Davidson: They have incentives. The United States has been a global destination for over 50 years because of its position in the world. We have some competitive advantage now because we are safe, secure, welcoming, affordable and offering a really high-quality experience for students.
Senator Mahovlich: The United States has some quality universities in Harvard, Yale and others.
Senator Nolin: For how much?
Senator Mahovlich: It is costly.
Mr. Davidson: I know you are trying to close, but there is another example of how these kinds of interactions brand Canada internationally.
If you go to Brazil, you will hear about the Ryerson code. What is the Ryerson code? It is a health and safety standard that Ryerson University developed with Brazilian partners in Brazil, and Brazilians know about Ryerson. I am giving another Toronto example for Senator Mahovlich.
Senator Mahovlich: Exactly; Ryerson is a great university.
The Chair: We have run out of time and there is another committee coming in here. You have made a compelling case, challenging us to factor in education and why we cannot ignore what you have said. I hope some of what you say will resonate in our report, both to the government but also, hopefully, to Brazil.
Part of problem is not the quality. I think we know we have the quality here and the reputation, but it is how we manage and sell it.
I would add two things to what you have said. The first is that international education is no longer another subset of a course you take. Everything we do has an international aspect. Whether you take law, engineering or what have you, all our laws now are dependent on international treaties or have some impact from them. It is not like it was 50 or 25 years ago. We are now very much in a global issue.
The other point is to quote Dr. Lloyd Barber, at the University of Regina, who recently passed away. He said that if you think education is expensive, try ignorance.
I think that is what President Rousseff understands, with the 100,000 scholarships going out. You cannot afford not to educate and to be part of the global system. I think Canada has that message on your reflections — how can we make it deliverable and acceptable — as well as what you have added.
There are too many competing interests. We have to write a report that can resonate and can be deliverable, so that we are not talking about MOUs that sit on shelves, that they are actually being implemented.
Thank you very much for challenging us and for giving us this information, and anything else that you can.
(The committee adjourned.)