Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 25 - Evidence - October 24, 2012
OTTAWA, Wednesday, October 24, 2012
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:37 p.m. to examine and report on the legal and political recognition of Metis identity in Canada.
Senator Gerry St. Germain (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Good evening. Welcome to all the senators and members of the public who are watching this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples on CPAC or the web.
My name is Gerry St. Germain, I come from British Columbia and I am the chair of this committee. However, I was born in Saint-François-Xavier, Manitoba, and I grew up in Manitoba.
This committee's mandate is to examine the legislation and issues that concern Canada's Aboriginal peoples in general.
Today, we are continuing our study on the collective identity and the rights of the Metis in Canada.
[English]
As part of our study on Metis identity we recently travelled to Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia and the Northwest Territories, where we held a series of public hearings and fact-finding meetings on the subject. The complexity of the issue became even more apparent during this travel. We appreciate the efforts of the witnesses, who have given of their time to help us grapple with this complicated question of identity.
I would like to thank this evening's witnesses for travelling from Winnipeg to assist us.
[Translation]
Before we hear from our witnesses, I would like to introduce the members of the committee who are here this evening.
[English]
Tonight we have with us the deputy chair of the committee, Senator Lillian Dyck from Saskatchewan; Senator Lovelace Nicholas from New Brunswick; Senator Watt from Quebec; Senator White from Ontario; Senator Raine from British Columbia; and Senator Patterson from Nunavut.
Honourable senators, please help me in welcoming, from L'Union nationale métisse Saint-Joseph du Manitoba, Gabriel Dufault, President; and with him at the table is a fellow Manitoban, from the University of St. Boniface, Denis Gagnon. There is also a special guest with them; Mr. Guy Savoie, who is an elder of their community.
Mr. Dufault, I believe you have a presentation.
[Translation]
After your presentation, the senators will ask you questions. Without further ado, the floor is yours. Thank you for joining us.
Gabriel Dufault, President, L'Union nationale métisse Saint-Joseph du Manitoba Inc.: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Members of the Senate committee, let me first thank you for inviting us to Ottawa. We do not often have the opportunity to leave our community. It is an honour and a privilege to come to Ottawa.
My name is Gabriel Dufault. I am the president of L'Union nationale métisse Saint-Joseph du Manitoba. Our organization was founded on August 17, 1887. We celebrated our 125th anniversary this year. We are the oldest Metis organization in the country.
In August 1887, in St. Vital, Manitoba, our organization was founded by a dozen Metis patriots at the residence of Mr. Joseph St-Germain.
However, our origins can be traced earlier in the history of western Canada. On September 24, 1884, in Batoche, in the presence of Louis Riel and Gabriel Dumont, the Metis founded the Association nationale métisse. That is when Louis Riel chose St. Joseph as the patron saint. Shortly afterwards, the name was changed to L'Union nationale métisse. In any case, our origins can be traced to Batoche.
The word ``nationale'' refers to ``Metis nation'' rather than ``coast to coast.''
[English]
L'Union nationale métisse is governed by a 16-member board elected at the annual general meeting. Board members include the president, vice-president, secretary, treasurer, four elders and seven councillors. At the present time, six of the sixteen members are youth. The president's term of office is three years, which can be renewed.
Our main activities include our annual wine and cheese in January, which is an opportunity for members and friends to network — a long-standing tradition. In February we participate in Festival du Voyageurs activities through its relay; L'Auberge du violon, in collaboration with Conseil Elzéar Goulet, which is the French local of the Winnipeg Region of the Manitoba Métis Federation, and Louis Riel Day. In Manitoba, Louis Riel Day is a statutory holiday to honour Manitoba's founding father. L'Union nationale métisse Saint-Joseph du Manitoba organizes a march with its partners from the St. Boniface Museum to Voyageur Park. It subsequently offers international sessions on the contribution of Louis Riel and the Metis.
In March, several members attend Manitpogo Festival in St. Laurent, Manitoba, which is a Metis community north of Winnipeg. It is a community that has been recognized by the Smithsonian Institute as truly representing the Metis culture in Canada.
In April, we have a cleanup bee at the Dumoulin Métis Cemetery at the border of Manitoba and North Dakota.
In May, we have our traditional picnic, held at Riel House, where Metis families and friends meet, eat together and transmit traditional values and games to the younger set. It is usually attended by hundreds of people.
At the end of September, early October, there is participation in the Initiative française Midwest Conference, organized by Dr. Virgil Benoît of the University of North Dakota for the Metis and franco-Americans along the Red River corridor.
In October there is the annual cleanup bee at Vermette Park, in conjunction with the environmental group Save Our Seine. The Vermette property is traditional Metis land where a thriving community used to exist. L'Union nationale métisse Saint-Joseph du Manitoba is collaborating with the City of Winnipeg Parks and Recreation Department to reclaim this property as a green space for community events.
On November 16 there is a commemorative mass at St. Boniface Cathedral and a ceremony at the gravesite of Louis Riel, at which the chairman of this committee was present a few years ago, with cultural interpretation followed by a reception for attendees, which include Metis and friends in St. Boniface and St. Vital. It is akin to Remembrance Day for Metis. It truly is a long-standing event for L'Union nationale métisse Saint-Joseph du Manitoba.
In November and December we have our annual general meeting, followed by an annual planning and visioning session with a consultant for board members.
We have a long list of partners. We have, of course, Save Our Seine; Société historique de Saint-Boniface; St. Vital Historical Society; La Liberté, French Manitoba's weekly newspaper; Conseil de développement économique des municipalités bilingues, CDEM; Société franco-manitobaine, SFM; Division scolaire franco-manitobaine, DSFM; Parc Canada, Riel House Historical Site; Conseil Elzéar Goulet, a French local of the Winnipeg Region of the MMF; Université de Saint-Boniface et la chair canadienne sur l'identité métisse.
[Translation]
I am pleased to be joined this evening by the chairholder of the research chair, Denis Gagnon, a reliable friend of L'Union nationale métisse.
[English]
Our mission statement is the correction of erroneous information about the Metis and their history, and the preservation of Metis Canadiens français culture, traditions and sharing of historical and cultural information to Manitoba and Canada.
[Translation]
I believe you have a copy of those notes.
Guy M. Savoie, Elder, L'Union nationale métisse Saint-Joseph du Manitoba Inc.: Mr. Chair, L'Union nationale métisse Saint-Joseph du Manitoba Inc. also organizes cultural activities. Its major interest is the Metis culture and it wants to promote it among the young Metis. You will see, as Gabriel indicated, that we have six young members on our board of directors. In December, we will have our annual general meeting and we will use that opportunity to recruit other young people who are in their 20s or 30s. We care about the union's future generations.
Just recently, we celebrated our 125th anniversary. We have brought you a program from the celebration. We have sponsored comic strips in the weekly Franco-Manitoban publication La Liberté des patriots to capture the interest of children. We also include special supplements in La Liberté. We are soon going to produce another one.
We have also sponsored books. For example, on November 25, we are going to launch Les Metis au Manitoba written by Bernard Bocquel. It took him four years to do the research and to write the book, which is 700 pages long. It is a real encyclopedia about the Metis in Manitoba and in western Canada. We will soon also publish Lucien Chaput's book about Auguste Tremondan who wrote a book about the Metis in Manitoba in the 1930s. We sponsored Mr. Chaput to review the book, make corrections and publish it again.
We are doing many other things, but I do not want to take up the whole evening with them. I would like to point out that, in Manitoba, we at L'Union nationale métisse Saint-Joseph du Manitoba Inc. are promoting our culture and passing it on to our young Metis. That is the primary goal of L'Union nationale métisse Saint-Joseph du Manitoba Inc.
The Chair: I will now give the floor to Mr. Gagnon, and our questions will follow.
Denis Gagnon, Chairholder, Canada Research Chair on Métis Identity, University of Saint-Boniface, as an individual: Good evening, everyone, and thank you very much for inviting me to appear before your committee. At the outset, I would like to point out that I was never an activist. I have never fought for a cause, but, in the face of continued ignorance and persistent bad faith that surround the definition of Metis identity in Canada, I decided in 2010 to get personally involved in the fight of the Metis community from Roy and Mingan against the Government of Quebec, as well as the fight of the 18 non-recognized Canadian Metis communities. I have always loathed discourses and practices of exclusion and intimidation that stem from xenophobia, given the destructive impact they have on people's lives.
In the matter before us, we can ask ourselves the following question: can we honestly justify the fact that Metis communities are required to prove their identity in court, even though the identity they are claiming and are being denied is one of the least sought after and the most stigmatized identities in Canada? As a scientist, anthropologist and chairholder of the Canada Research Chair on Métis Identity at University of Saint-Boniface, I take this opportunity to point out three types of paradoxes — the emotional paradox, the legal paradox and the scientific paradox — that shape the definition of Metis collective identity.
The first paradox, the emotional paradox, can be summarized in this way: ``They are not Metis like us, therefore they are not Metis.'' That type of paradox stems from the stubbornness of some western Metis, the Métis National Council and the provincial nations the council represents in not recognizing the existence of other historically Metis communities in Canada. What are the fears behind their occasionally aggressive position? How would this recognition be a threat for them? This reaction, which we can describe as xenophobic, feeds on ignorance and sometimes even leads to misinformation and the manipulation of sources. Here is an example. A Metis activist has recently written in a widely circulated publication that 350,000 individuals identified themselves as Metis in the 2006 census, which is not true. According to Statistics Canada, there are 389,785. That individual has intentionally left out the 40,000 Metis who do not belong to the western associations, knowing full well that the vast majority of people do not question his expertise.
Let me now talk about the legal paradox. There has obviously been no Metis ethnogenesis in Quebec, so we are going to spend $800,000 to prove it. This type of paradox has to do with the disproportionate government initiatives that have been in place since 2004 to discredit the claims of some 20 Metis communities that are not recognized. An army of researchers paid by governments has been hired to cover the tracks, to ignore the facts and to overlook sources that contradict the sponsor's opinion. Unfortunately, the legal approach is usually the only approach used in Canada when dealing with Aboriginal affairs. This approach places a lot of power in the hands of a judge who has to rule on the status of a community based on the ten criteria in the Powley decision. However, if a community only meets eight or nine of the ten criteria, is that community 80 per cent or 90 per cent Metis or is it not Metis? As you have been able to see in these deliberations, being Metis in Canada means fighting since the 19th century for the recognition of rights against ongoing discrimination and racism. This is true for all the nations and communities, be they the Manitoba Metis Federation or the Métis of New Brunswick who lost the Daigle, Castonguay and Vautour cases in court. They are required to prove their existence — they have the burden of proof — and they have to defend their rights in court. From Guillaume Sawyer, in 1849, to Ghislain Corneau, in 2012, 90 cases have been or still are in court. After the Manitoba Metis Federation has fought in court for 28 years, the cases have still not been settled; 15 for Morin; 10 for the Powley brothers; nine for Hopper; $24 million spent by Canada, in 2004, for the 18 studies of the Department of Justice; $800,000 spent by the Government of Quebec to demolish about a dozen hunting camps that are barely worth $1,000 each. The list is long and the human and social costs are very high for a battered identity that should be protected instead.
The third paradox is the scientific paradox. Here is an example. If a Metis community does not appear in any colonial archives, it means that it has never existed. This type of paradox reduces communities to invisibility by using the criteria that are met only by the Red River Metis community, given that it set up its own government structure in 1870. The analysis of published research on the absence of Metis communities in Quebec enabled us to uncover many biases that invalidate the findings of those experts. Scientifically, they are using a pre-Powley Metis ethnogenesis model, meaning that their analysis tools would not even allow them to prove the existence of the Sault Ste. Marie Metis community.
Right from the outset, applying the Red River Metis model to other Metis communities sets the bar so high that nothing else can be accepted, given the absence of archival documents. In addition, experts assume that the data presented are indicative of the reality. That is a bias that we are taught to be wary of in the first year of university. Yet it could be easy for them to overcome this bias by consulting oral tradition sources, conducting interviews on the ground and relying on putting the need to produce archival records in its proper context. The experts are failing on every level and they arrogantly put up a wall of resistance, as if they were the truth bearers, without showing the slightest duty to validate their findings or the slightest understanding towards the peoples in question. Using an approach that goes against any strict scientific method, those experts have selected facts based only on objectives that lead to pre-determined conclusions.
The only conclusion that we can draw from those studies is that no other Metis community similar to the Red River community has ever existed anywhere else in Canada — we already knew that. Those findings, confirming an alleged lack of Metis ethnogenesis somewhere other than Red River, are based on Peterson's value judgment and are adopted by the Metis in the west without any critical judgment. They are also adopted by some experts who confuse the concepts of historical Metis community and political and ethnic Metis community. Yet historical anthropology methods, which are never used in Canada in Metis cases, would make it possible to explore the history of those non- recognized communities, going beyond the limit set by the official history that is solely based on the study of colonial archives.
So it is now imperative to consider oral sources when defining Metis identity, since Metis have very little written about themselves, and nothing or very little has been written about them.
To conclude, I would like to share a message with you from Jean-René Tremblay, president chief of the Domaine- du-Roy Metis community and the Mingan seigneury in Quebec:
The Metis in northern Quebec are inevitably on the road to becoming recognized, which is for the benefit of all Canadians, including First Nations and Metis in the west. Once they are recognized, they will still have to regain the lost trust and establish a dialogue that allows each member to contribute to a prosperous future for all Aboriginal peoples, regardless of where they live on Canadian soil.
The Chair: Thank you, professor. We now have a list of senators who wish to ask questions. Let us begin with Senator Patterson.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you, professor.
Senator Patterson: I would like to thank the witnesses for their presentations. It is excellent that we are hearing from you, given your impressive history.
Professor Gagnon, for better or worse, we have decided to focus on this identity question in our study. You have obviously studied this question in great detail. We have heard from many Metis that they have felt excluded from recognition by the federal government. You have said that the definition of the Métis National Council excludes great numbers of Metis, and you have talked about the need to use methods of historical anthropology, as I understand it, including oral history.
Perhaps we are falling into the pitfall that you condemn on the part of many others, but we felt that this is a burning question. What would your advice be? How should we tackle this question of identifying Metis in Canada?
[Translation]
Mr. Gagnon: Could you repeat the question, please?
[English]
Senator Patterson: It is a very simple question. Could you give us advice on how we should answer the question ``Who is Metis''? How should we go about answering that question when so many have failed to answer it properly according to history and science, as you have outlined?
[Translation]
Mr. Gagnon: Canada has always chosen the legal path. So, as a result of a series of lawsuits, criteria have been established to define Métis collective rights and a Metis community. The criteria in the Powley decision are very interesting and important. The judge really managed to identify all the elements that define a Metis community.
That is the paradox of the Sault Ste. Marie Metis who were not recognized by the MMF or the Métis National Council in the past, because they did not belong to the Metis of Fort Frances and of the Lake of the Woods. They were The Métis Nation of Ontario and they received recognition overnight. It is interesting that now they are starting to forge ties with the Sault Ste. Marie community because they do not have a choice.
The same thing might happen in Quebec, which resonates with Mr. Tremblay's message about rebuilding the relationship of trust. The ties between the Metis of Quebec and the Metis of Manitoba are very strong and rich, going a long way back — and Gabriel is aware of that. You just have to ask the Quebec Metis to find out more. However, they do not want to hear from them, they do not want to hear anything about them.
The studies that we have looked at used the criteria from the Powley decision, but they use the Metis ethnogenesis approach developed by Jacqueline Peterson Loomis, a model that only acknowledges the Red River Metis. The problem with the government's investigations and the $24 million invested in the Department of Justice studies on the 18 communities is that the general goal is to explain why there has not been a Metis ethnogenesis on a territory. They are not even considering that there might have been one but that the official history does not reflect it for one reason or another. And we can identify those reasons; we know what they are.
We need to see how the existence of the Metis of the west came to this level of archive. It is that they were in conflict with trading companies. We wrote about them because they were in conflict.
There are other places in Canada where the Metis communities did not create conflict. They experienced discrimination and racism. They were called savages in Quebec; savages, people who live in the bush, who have no manners.
In all the studies done in Canada with the excluded Metis communities and Metis communities, the common point is discrimination, stigmatization and racism. This identity is even a little enviable today. I live in Saint-Boniface. I know some young Metis. I know the difficulties they are encountering. When we hear people say that it is cool or interesting to be Metis, that is wrong. It is still very difficult in Manitoba and in Canada.
These communities that define themselves as Metis, asking them why would be the very least we could do, instead of hiring people and asking them the reasons why there is no ethnogenesis.
This is the problem with New Brunswick. I think that the historic anthropology, with its methods, would make it possible to make up for the absence of archival sources to learn about the history of these people. They have a fascinating oral tradition — Gabriel can tell you about it. They remember the War of 1812 and the French and Indian wars. They have an incredible knowledge, but they have not written it down, nor have we written it down.
In my opinion, historical anthropology would make it possible to help, and that is what I have been doing for several years: I am trying to help them.
By the way, the Union nationale métisse Saint-Joseph du Manitoba, when we talk about it to the Manitoba Métis Federation, they tell us that they are assimilated. They are no longer Metis; they are assimilated. They are even trying to exclude the founders of the first Metis union in Manitoba. An effort is being made to exclude them. This discourse is xenophobic, this fear of the other. We should identify why they are so afraid that there are other Metis in Canada. What would this take away from them?
Mr. Savoie: I will give you a concrete example. My great-grandmother was a Vertefeuille. She came from northern Quebec. Vertefeuille is a name you do not find in Europe. And even today, the MMF says that she was not Metis because she came from Quebec. She had the braids. I have photos. All that is missing is the feather. She was, in fact, aboriginal but, according to some people, as Professor Gagnon told you, for all intents and purposes, she and her offspring are not Metis.
This is a little difficult to swallow, you know. Especially when, as a family, we have traditions that are handed down from father to son, from mother to daughter, for three, four, five, six generations. Being told that you are not Metis is a bit of an insult, I can assure you.
Mr. Gagnon: This deprives people of the identity they give themselves. Presenting yourself as you are is one of the most sacred human rights. But we make them defend that right before the courts. I think this is absolutely ridiculous. I called this ``three types of paradox.'' It is really ridiculous that we accept it as a given. You say you are Metis? Prove it. No one asks anyone else in Canada to prove who they are.
Do you want me to prove that I am Quebecois or that I was Quebecois? No one is asking me to do that. But we are asking them.
And what are the rights? That is another important point that the committee should consider. Not all Metis have the same needs.
Look at what the Metis of Quebec are demanding, for how long and why, what the Metis of New Brunswick are demanding, for how long and why, and things will clarify.
For example, look at the social problems of the Metis of Saint Boniface, of Winnipeg, which are particularly serious. These people need much more help and social programs. They do not need social programs, housing programs or education in Quebec. What they need, is quite simply to continue subsistence hunting, which they have been doing for close to 300 years. That is the sole request. And we are asking them to prove who they are for a right they thought they had been granted.
The case is different in Manitoba, in the west, in Saskatchewan. It is the same thing for the north, for the northern communities. They also have some more urgent, more pressing and more complicated problems. I think this identity struggle among the Metis themselves is preventing them from having a better vision. Instead of saying who is Metis and who is not, we should say: very well, these people say they are Metis. Do you know many people who identify as Metis, as a community?
The Chair: When I was growing up, the people of Quebec did not want to be Metis. When I was growing up, people were Michif. And the Scots of the north, they were half-breeds. But most of the people in Quebec did not want to say if they were Metis or Aboriginal. Finally, it was announced that there were rights and all kinds of programs, hunting. Everyone came out of the woodwork and wanted to have this or that.
There was a language; people spoke Michif. They spoke Michif in Saint-Eustache and in St. François Xavier. The people in the north spoke English. But really, they had a region, a language, and a government with Riel.
How is it that you are now saying that there was no government when all this started? That is where the Michif identity originates. I remember, when I was growing up in St. François Xavier.
So I am asking you the question. You want the Metis of Labrador, of Victoria and all these places. There may be Metis in those locations. But they started somewhere. The French come from France and speak French. The Germans come from Germany. Everyone comes from somewhere. Explain to me why you are not considering this in your answers, professor.
Mr. Gagnon: That is sort of the first paradox I presented: they are not Metis like me, so they are not Metis.
You mention St. François Xavier and Saint-Eustache, which were Metis communities. In Saint Boniface, in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s, people hid their identity. The young Metis who Gabriel and Mr. Savoie are talking about are children who have rediscovered their identity, against the advice of their parents. The parents told them not to say that they are Metis, but they did anyway. They are some of dozens who, against the advice of their parents, have rediscovered themselves. But we are now calling them opportunists: ``You want grants?'' These young people are rediscovering their culture and their identity. I know people who learned about their Metis identity when they were 40 years old, when their father died. They asked, ``Mom, who are these Indians coming to the house?'' They were told, ``They are your family; we are Metis.'' Since then, they have become the great ambassadors of the Metis culture. Some will say that these people are not Metis because they hid it.
Why did people in Quebec not say so? Because of discrimination. Why did people in Saint Boniface hide their Metis identity? Because of discrimination and racism.
There was some opening up in 1982, then there was the inquiry with Aboriginal Peoples. People realized they were Metis. They opened a social space that individuals invested in. Not everyone in Quebec is claiming to be Metis. Go tell someone in Quebec that he is Metis and watch his reaction.
Once again, we are talking about communities. These are collective rights we are dealing with, not individual rights. These are Metis communities. These are people who meet the criteria, and this is what they are going to try to prove in court, hoping that the judge is open-minded, as in the Powley case. Even the Powley case in Sault Ste. Marie will not fall in with the Metis you are talking about. They have no tie with the Metis of the Red River. They were Saulteaux, who were in Sault Ste. Marie and who then came here. But they did not have a temporary government there. They never had a government. Peterson did not want to recognize the Metis of Sault Ste. Marie. The judge did in the Powley case because he said they met the Powley criteria.
So there are Metis from the Red River. And even in Manitoba, there are several types of Metis. You spoke about half-breeds. We could also talk about the Metis of Turtle Mountain, who are not the same as the Metis of Saint Boniface and St. Vital. The Metis were not all bison hunters. There were entrepreneurs, farmers, teachers, lawyers, professionals. There was even a Metis bourgeoisie in the 1880s and 1890s. What dominates today is the image of the Métis bison hunter: "We are the only Metis; the others are not."
So it is through these waters that I am negotiating. I am trying to somewhat understand the issues, why people position themselves this way, why they react, how they recover. Identity is a fluid thing. It can be liquid, monolithic or solid. It is very dangerous when it is monolithic. But the identity is something that always recomposes itself, that redefines itself based on the time, the needs and based on history.
I was born Canadian, I became French-Canadian, then I became Quebecois. This did not change me as an individual. I became Canadian again today. But I am still the same person.
Identity is fluid. But these are individuals we are talking about, not things. We are not sending them to a standards council. These are people who have an awareness, who have their life and want to defend their rights. They present who they are, and it would be respectful to say, very well, we will try to understand why, instead of telling them they are not who they claim to be.
[English]
Senator Dyck: Obviously this is a very complicated issue. I hate to even open my mouth.
We have been studying this for a short period of time. We were just on a two-week trip across the four Western provinces and the Northwest Territories and heard some of the things that you were talking about this evening. Metis identity is clearly an important issue. There is the issue of who should decide. Of course, we heard many times that it should be the people themselves who know who they are and can define themselves, but we are also faced with the issue that, if there are programs, services or equity seats that are specifically for Metis people, then we have people at a university, for instance, who have to make a decision. We heard from one of the people from the College of Medicine at the University of Saskatchewan that a person applied for an equity seat and was clearly not Metis but had purchased a card from an organization in Ontario. The organization is actually listed on the Aboriginal Affairs website. The person paid for this card and demanded to be admitted to the university because they met the qualifications.
There is the very strong argument that people should decide for themselves, but if we are going to have equity seats, programs and services, someone has to decide how to screen out the people who come forward who cannot claim to be Metis but do. What do we do in that case?
[Translation]
Mr. Gagnon: As I just said, this involves targeting programs based on the communities' needs. The Metis nations in the west are already well-organized. The Métis National Council is doing a fairly good job. Unfortunately, there will always be fraudsters. There are always people who will try to get what is not owed to them. We will have to do our part. But it is important to target programs based on the communities and their needs.
In Quebec, there are no needs in education, or in housing or in health. If I may, these people are living a life that is closer to the majority. What they are simply asking for is to be able to subsistence hunt, as they have done for 300 years. That is it; that is all the Metis are asking for. I have heard things like ``you are going to give hunting rights to everyone''; no, not everyone is asking for it. These are a few individuals only who are saying that they meet the criteria of the Powley decision. They are an historic Metis community, a contemporary Metis community, and they will be able to appoint their own members themselves, to have subsistence hunting.
The same thing is true in Sault Ste. Marie. The social problems that the Metis of the west are experiencing are more glaring. There are many more Metis of the west than in the other provinces. They need much more government assistance, and I think this has already been working fairly well for them. It is up to them, in the west, to decide how to establish lists of members so that there is no fraud, as you mention.
But the problem that especially interests me is the one of these 18 communities that Canada does not want to recognize as being Metis communities. These are the people who interest me. They are the ones we are working with, and that is where we are doing ethnographic investigations. We are going in the field, we are going to meet with the Dene Metis, the Great Slave Lake Metis; we have major field projects with these people to try to help them in their fight because this fight is most unfair. The government does not want to recognize them and will do what is necessary for that, drag things out for decades if necessary to wear people down. The Powley brothers had courage and determination that few people have. Most of them will let go before that. That is what I would like to prevent, if I can, this current injustice.
[English]
Senator Dyck: You mentioned that you are working with 18 communities. Would you be willing to share with the committee a list of the communities that have been excluded?
[Translation]
Mr. Gagnon: First, this is a project that I submitted to the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council for next year. With the research chair, we unfortunately do not have the means to undertake this. The project is under way; I have worked with a lot of eastern communities, however. These communities can be found on the Department of Justice site as part of the 18 studies, which are the object of the $24 million that was released in 2004. This was given little media attention. I wrote an article in the journal Recherche amérindienne au Québec, and I even called a lawyer to ask him if I had the right to talk about it because these studies were not publicized. There is the lower Fraser, Wabasca- Desmarais; there are some in northern Manitoba, in all the provinces — all the provinces are affected — there are Metis in Labrador as well. I could send you the list if you like.
[English]
Senator Dyck: You probably answered my next question. Last week, we heard from another witness that the Department of Justice had done this study and that they had looked at communities across Canada. On the Department of Justice website just yesterday I found something that lists 15 communities that they looked at, but it does not really tell you what they found. It is probably related to that. They do not indicate what the major conclusions were. They do say some things, but it is very limited. Maybe the information that you have is more fulsome.
[Translation]
Mr. Gagnon: Right now, we will have to see with the Access to Information Act if we can get it. I knew people who have worked on these cases with the Metis of Labrador, with the Metis of the North Shore. Their report was left on the shelf because it proved the existence of Metis communities based on the criteria of the Powley case. For other communities, this was resolved amicably. The Quebec ministry of justice took care of things there, for the Corneau proceedings.
[English]
Senator Dyck: You also mentioned that part of the problem in legally determining who is a Metis person has to do with over-reliance on the colonial archives. One of the witnesses mentioned the scrip commissioner going out and trying to find people and have them apply for scrip. Literacy was part of the solution as well.
Is there a legal precedent in Canada for the use of oral tradition in the legal system or in other countries? Would it be supported by other studies of a similar nature?
[Translation]
Mr. Gagnon: No, I do not believe so. These are the first. Let's just say that for the western Metis nations, that was not necessary. Their history in the colonial archives was clear enough, and because of the injustices they suffered when the scrips were handed out, during the two resistance events, they were recognized as aboriginals and that is why their rights are recognized today.
As for these other communities, they did not have conflicts with the government or with trading companies. They stayed in the background, in the shadows of history. History generally focuses only on very particular themes that touch on the economy or politics; generally speaking it does not concern itself with the oral history of populations or their traditions. But what is interesting is that people do have such an oral history and continue to pass it down.
It would be very interesting and important to carry out an ethnohistorical study on these populations that are in a gray area between the aboriginal peoples and the non-aboriginal population, and who may have benefited more or less from services which in certain regions they would be entitled to, such as fishing and hunting rights. For these communities, in my opinion, the way of proceeding would be to carry out a series of oral investigations in order to discover their history, because it is fascinating, very rich, and very interesting. We have heard a lot about it regarding the Quebec Metis; this is a history which was never written down because it interests no one besides themselves. Today, we must take a closer look at those communities.
[English]
Senator Raine: It is good to hear about you and I appreciate Mr. Dufault giving us the background documentation on your community and the paper that we have here.
As we travelled across the country and spoke to Metis people and people from different communities, it is obvious that there are many differences in how their history has evolved, but there is a cord that runs through people that you could probably define as ``Metisness.''
Mr. Dufault, I was wondering how you would describe ``Metisness''?
Mr. Dufault: There is a French word metissage, which is what I think you are talking about.
Senator Raine: How would you describe that? What is it?
Mr. Dufault: Metissage in my books is mixed blood. I think that is bottom line.
Senator Raine: We were talking about the fact that there are people now who, with the new regulations, can claim status as First Nations.
Mr. Dufault: Yes, under Bill C-31.
Senator Raine: However, people are saying that I even if I did that, I would do that because I would maybe get a benefit.
Mr. Dufault: An immediate benefit.
Senator Raine: However, they said, ``I am still Metis, I am not First Nation, and I feel Metis. It is in my heart.'' One man said that if he is travelling and stops in a coffee shop and sits down beside someone, he might say a word or two to them and instantly they know that they are both Metis. Then they are talking about whether they are related to this person or to that person and where they are from, and so on. There is a connection and that is a cultural correction, which has nothing to do with benefits, or entitlements, or rights.
When I look at Metis identity, I am coming to the conclusion that this is what we want to promote and pass on to the youth and to children, namely, this pride that you have in your history and in your roots. It is a lot of different things to different people, but there is a common connection. I think I am coming to the conclusion that the most important thing is to —
Mr. Dufault: Self-identify.
Senator Raine: To self-identity, yes, and to not worry so much about whether or not you are on a registry or a list or entitled to this, that and the other thing. Frankly, I think any Canadian who needs help should qualify based on their need and not on their racial origin.
When you look at the wonderful culture of Metis people, one of the saddest things that I see is non-Metis people have no knowledge of this and no understanding of it. It has not been celebrated in our museums, our history books and our school books, yet in my province of British Columbia, almost every single community started with Metis people coming and settling and being there. We never learned that and we should.
Mr. Dufault: I do not think our history books in Canada have been very probative. Some of them have been anti- Metis.
Senator Raine: Absolutely. It has only been more recently that Louis Riel was not considered a traitor and was considered the founder of Manitoba and probably the West. The history is coming out now and my big question would be this: What is more important; is it the celebration of your history and your culture, or is it qualifying for benefits or entitlements?
Mr. Savoie: That is subjective.
Let me talk about this 1812 documentary. My recollection is, from when I learned history, that the battle was going one way, then the other way and so on. The tide was turned when Tecumseh arrived with his people and, history says, French-Canadian voyageurs. For the most part they were Metis. They were sharpshooters, much better than the native people, and they indeed turned the tide in favour of what is now Canada.
Do we teach that to our young people? Do we come out and say that the tide was turned because of the support of Metis people? It is not even mentioned. Then again, maybe to answer some of Senator Dyck's questions, why is it that we demand proof of so many instances, even amongst our own? Examples abound.
A few years ago my granddaughter was a good hockey skater. In fact she plays for the Manitoba Bisons Team at the University of Manitoba. She won a five-year full scholarship. Prior to going to university, the MMF had a team in the Canadian competition of Aboriginal teams. They wanted her to play and she needed a Metis card. She came to see me and asked, ``Are we Metis?'' I said, ``Certainly we are.'' We had a Union Nationale card, but that was not good enough. They wanted an MMF card. I went to the MMF and brought the documentation and they said, ``Yes, you are a Metis,'' and gave her a card.
The telling thing was that my granddaughter came to me and said:
[Translation]
Papa, why do I have to go to the MMF to be told that I am a Metis?
[English]
That answers some of your question.
It is hard to come out and say that without being emotional because it cuts right there. You talked about that a while ago. It cuts to the quick. Even our own governments — the provincial and the federal governments — have no semblance of order, but they still ask for proof if we want to do something.
There is the harvester card. For the odd person who will ask for a harvester card, why do they have to go through all those hoops? There are loads of people, even Metis people, who no longer hunt. For the odd few we could say, ``You are Metis; here is your harvester card.'' Why ask all these things? Why all that proof, as Dr. Gagnon says? What is this?
Maybe I have answered some of your questions. I hope I have. Pardon me for being emotional.
Senator Raine: I appreciate that. That sentiment is very strong and your granddaughter is right. You know who you are. As Senator Dyck said, when you are in a position and you only have so many places in the reserve for Metis people, and you have ten applications for five seats, you better be darned good and sure that you are giving the seat out to someone who is qualified.
Mr. Savoie: Should you deny the other four because of the one wrong one? It is a difficult question, certainly.
The Chair: There is no question that Canadians have a right to know. In 1982 our people were added to section 35 or we became part of the Constitution as Aboriginal peoples. There is an obligation. People are asking, ``Who are these people?'' There is a responsibility that if you put something in the Constitution, like Pierre Elliott Trudeau's government did in 1982, to let people know what they were thinking, who were they talking about when they said ``the Metis people?'' Why did they not clarify that, professor? There were all kinds of professors and professionals there. Why did not they clarify that? That is the question, as far as I am concerned, because I know who I am. I have always been a Metis and I identified as one.
Mr. Dufault, you know I did from day one. I was actually accused and it was written up that I identified myself as the first Metis cabinet minister. It was pointed out to me that I was not the first Metis cabinet minister and I said that I never was, but I was the first who self-identified. I knew there had been a cabinet minister before me who would not identify as a Metis. I believe he identified himself as a French-Canadian at the time. That is the challenge we have.
It is easy to come in and speak, but as a Metis person myself, I believe Canadians have a right to know what was meant in section 35. We have the Powley case now, and Mr. Savoie says ``a few harvesters.'' We received evidence in one place where the moment this was opened up there was a flood of people in and around Batoche who wanted to hunt. They were there because they had heard that above a certain point they could hunt and they theoretically came out of the woodwork.
There must be some control, but it is a tough question. There is no question about it.
Do you have any more, Senator Raine?
Senator Raine: No, but I think Mr. Dufault would like to say something.
Mr. Dufault: In section 35 of our Constitution, 1982, that was the very first time the Metis were included in the Constitution, and that was thanks to Harry Daniels.
The Chair: That is right.
Mr. Dufault: He twisted arms.
Senator Raine: Do you think being in the Constitution has helped Metis people to be proud of their heritage?
Mr. Dufault: Many Metis people do not even know that.
The Chair: Do you not think, though, that Canadians have a right to know who this new group of people are? Prior to that, Aboriginals were recognized as Inuit and Indians. Now all of a sudden we have a third component. I am not being argumentative. We are searching for answers here so we can hopefully transmit to the general public something that makes sense.
Our responsibility is to Canadians. I happen to be Metis and I happen to be chairing this committee, but my responsibility is to Canada. I have to answer to the Senate and to all Canadians, as do the members of my committee here, who are capable and in many cases more capable than me. That is the question. To a degree, that is what triggered the whole inquiry.
Mr. Savoie: Part of the answer to that was addressed by Professor Gagnon. Your problem basically is that if you are not a Manitoba Metis or what was understood as that, then you are not a Metis, period. Then you put aside the Metis people from Quebec, the Metis people from British Columbia and so on. That is part of the problem. You have to address it and say that all 18 communities that have been pushed aside and forgotten do not have status. Therein lies a huge part of the problem. If these communities were recognized, then it would be a much easier task. I believe you are right: Who are these people? These people are from X, from Y, St. Boniface and so on. These are Metis communities and they identify as Metis. That would make the task much easier so that the person who applies for the university position can be checked out quite easily without going through a whole rigmarole of putting the onus on the person to show proof. That needs to be corrected. I do not want to denigrate the MMF in Manitoba, but this is the case. If you are not from that little area and you do not identify with these families, you are simply not a Metis; thank you very much. It causes some problems.
[Translation]
Mr. Gagnon: In brief, Canada never wanted the Metis on its territory and always did everything in its power to see to it that they did not exist. Since the activities of human beings are unpredictable, a Metis people developed in Canada in all of the provinces, throughout the territory, and they are in fact a founding people we do not want to recognize. The Metis are a founding people in Canada and it would be one of my dreams to have them be officially recognized as such. They were everywhere, in all of the struggles, took part in all the explorations, in all of the development of the country, all over, from the Atlantic to Acadia to British Columbia and even right down to Louisiana and Oregon. They were also everywhere in the United States — Kansas, Arkansas — they are everywhere in America. And yet no one wants them in Canada, nor in the United States.
In Canada, with numbered treaties, people were separated; ``register to belong to an Indian band'' and they registered as Indians; ``as for others, say that you are white. Choose.'' There was no place for the Metis. People try to solve the problem in that way. Hundreds of thousands of people probably have an identity that they chose because they were able to make a choice; others did not, they resisted, and still today, they say that they are Metis.
The problem, the danger, especially, is that as anthropologists, we are always inclined to see the unintentional consequences of an act. In 1982, the government recognized the Metis, but it was very shortsighted. Who are they, and what will this lead to? The country defined an identity which led to the existence of this commission. Canada does not want them. Now I see that Canada is going to turn them into Indians by defining their identity, by freezing the Metis identity.
How will this identity be transmitted? Will we have those C-31s, 6(1)s, 6(2)s? Just like for the Indians, will we witness their extinction in the medium term? Will the Metis who marry into other groups lose their Metis status? I have been decrying this in the wilderness for years. No one listens, no one wants to hear. That is what is coming. Once the Metis identity has been cast in stone, we will have signed their extinction papers in the medium term because we are going to force them to become Indians by doing that, and that is the problem. There are the 6(2)s and the stigma is there, as is the discrimination. I know them; I know some in Quebec who got called 31 their whole lives. Their children get told that they are 6(1)s or 6(2)s, there is an incredible stigma. There is a really dangerous slippery slope around this identity definition that may lead to greater, more specific and difficult stigmatization.
I am a French-Canadian with Quebec roots, I have language rights in Manitoba, in Canada, and I am never asked to prove that I am a French-Canadian. It should be the same thing for the Metis.
[English]
Senator Raine: Professor Gagnon, have you studied the Sami of Scandinavia? Some Sami from Norway appeared before the committee and made a presentation. I found it very interesting to hear from the Aboriginal people of Norway. They have the right to vote for representation in the Norwegian parliament. They also have exclusive fishing territory in the far north of Norway, and they are the only people allowed to herd reindeer in northern Norway. They are scattered throughout the country yet they self-identify as Sami. When I asked them what entitlements they had as Sami, they did not understand ``entitlements.'' I said that maybe they had extra health benefits or education. They said that they have exactly the same as all Norwegians have: a good health system and a good education system. They have the same services as any other Norwegian has. I asked why they would want to identify as a Sami. They were very quick to say it was because they are proud to be Sami and they want to preserve and protect the Sami language and culture. I found that to be a very good target for Metis. Had you considered that?
[Translation]
Mr. Gagnon: Norway has an aboriginal people. In Canada, we have 300, who all have different needs, different histories, who experienced colonial history in a very different way depending on whether they were Mohawk, Haida, Gwich'n, or others. In Norway, the Sami live at the far edge of the universe with herds of reindeer, and their territory was never threatened, they were never moved, and they never had to lose their aboriginal rights. That is a very particular case that may be difficult to compare with any other because of their numbers. They are a nation, the Sami, but what would be of interest to me is whether there are Sami Metis? With the Research Chair, we work with Metis communities in over five countries throughout the world. The Yakutsk Metis in Russia call themselves Metis. It is the same story but it goes in the other direction; the eastern part of Russia is being developed in the same way that the Canadian West was developed. We also work with Ainu Metis who are Japanese aboriginals. The common point in all of these Metis studies that we are carrying out, in everything I have seen in Canada, is discrimination.
Everywhere in the world, people of mixed race experience discrimination except when they are the norm. When they are the norm, what happens to discrimination? It centres around people's colour, on whether they are darker or paler. In those cases it becomes even more specific. In Canada, we never wanted the Metis; and yet there they are. France tried during 50 years of colonial history to create a Metis group in Madagascar, but never succeeded. Human beings are unpredictable. We don't know how meetings between human groups are going to unfold. In Canada things went very well between the French and the Indians. There was friendship, even love. That was not the case with other groups who came afterwards, but with the French, immediately, in just a few generations, the Metis were everywhere on the territory, from Acadia to New Mexico and California. In certain countries, that would be impossible.
And so, these were unpredictable developments. We did not know how things would go and that is what happened, and today we need a parliamentary commission to solve what should not be a problem, but should add to the rich texture of Canadian multiculturalism.
[English]
The Chair: Colleagues, we have to proceed to other business.
It has been most interesting that we should finish off with people from where I came from: the Metis community in Manitoba. I guess someone asked why we are doing this and I said, ``Well, it is an attempt to identify who I am under section 35.''
Thank you for coming, Mr. Dufault, Mr. Gagnon and Mr. Savoie. This is the last meeting that I will be chairing on television. I will chair next Tuesday's meeting, but it will be my last one because I am retiring. It is appropriate that the presentations came from what I call the ``heartland'' in Manitoba.
I thank you again for your presentations.
[Translation]
You have made some excellent presentations and you have answered our questions. The time has now come to say good night and to thank you once again.
[English]
We will suspend for about 15 minutes.
(The committee continued in camera.)