Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 3 - Evidence - Meeting of November 17, 2011
OTTAWA, Thursday, November 17, 2011
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met today at 9:30 a.m. to study the application of the Official Languages Act and of the regulations and directives made under it, to examine the use of the Internet, new media and social media and the respect for Canadians' language rights, and to study Air Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act.
Senator Maria Chaput (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Welcome to the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. I am Senator Maria Chaput from Manitoba, chair of the committee.
I would now like to invite the members of the committee who are here to introduce themselves and I will start on my far right with the deputy chair.
Senator Champagne: Good morning, I am Senator Andrée Champagne from Quebec.
Senator De Bané: Pierre De Bané from Quebec.
Senator Tardif: Claudette Tardif from Alberta.
Senator Segal: Hugh Segal from Ontario.
Senator Poirier: Rose-May Poirier, New Brunswick.
The Chair: Thank you. Today we have with us the Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages, the Honourable James Moore, and representatives of his department.
Mr. Moore, it is with great pleasure that the committee welcomes you to its meeting. On behalf of the members, I would like to thank you for accepting our invitation to appear here today.
Canadian Heritage is responsible for ensuring that the federal government is committed to enhancing the vitality of the English and French linguistic minority communities in Canada and supporting and assisting their development, and promoting Canadian linguistic duality.
Your appearance is an opportunity for the committee to hear the minister on the subject of the annual report tabled in Parliament in August 2011 and on other issues falling within its mission in relation to official languages.
As you know, the committee recently decided to undertake an in-depth study relating to the use of the Internet, new media and social media and the respect for Canadians' language rights. It is also examining the obligations of Air Canada and the CBC/Radio-Canada under the Official Languages Act. The committee hopes that the minister will be able to contribute to that subject.
Mr. Moore, once again, thank you for accepting our invitation to appear today. I would now invite you to take the floor, and the senators will follow with questions.
Hon. James Moore, P.C., M.P, Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages: Thank you. It is a pleasure to be here. I would first like to greet your chair, Senator Chaput, as well as all the members of the committee.
Accompanying me today are Hubert Lussier, on my right, acting as Assistant Deputy Minister for Citizenship and Heritage, and Amanda Cliff, Director General of Broadcasting and Digital Communications.
The study being conducted by your committee is highly relevant in this time of major change.
In October, you met with my colleague Tony Clement to discuss the government's communications with the public and service delivery in both official languages.
Thank you for now giving me the opportunity to appear before you and speak about matters for which I am responsible.
[English]
I believe that it is important for Canadians to have content in both of Canada's official languages and for that content to be present in an online and digital environment. Our government has done much to ensure that is the case.
Before dealing with online content, I would like to take a step back and review my overall responsibilities for official languages and broadcasting. As you know, my department oversees implementation of a number of acts, including Part VII of the Official Languages Act and the Broadcasting Act.
Under Part VII of the Official Languages Act, the Government of Canada must support the development of official language minority communities. It must also foster full recognition and use of both English and French in Canadian society. Every federal government institution has a duty to fulfill this obligation responsibly. However, it is my department that is responsible for delivering the Official Languages Support Programs, representing an expenditure of $350 million a year.
For its part, the Broadcasting Act sets broadcasting policy for Canada as a whole. The act frames how we approach the broadcasting system. Our policies and programs work in a complementary fashion with the act to ensure that content is produced for both official languages communities across the country.
For close to half a century now, the government has been working within this legislative framework to promote Canadian culture, including both of our official languages, for all Canadians no matter what their place of residence.
[Translation]
A large number of players are taking part in this project of national scope. I am thinking in particular of CBC/Radio- Canada, the CRTC, the National Film Board, Telefilm Canada, the Canada Council for the Arts, and Library and Archives Canada.
All the policies and programs of these organizations and the Department of Canadian Heritage seek to promote both our official languages and the vitality of minority communities.
Allow me to go into more detail about what my department does. At Canadian Heritage, we are making every effort to create an environment in which creators, artists, and cultural entrepreneurs can create high-quality content in English and French and can make it accessible to their fellow citizens. And official-language promotion is involved in everything we do.
What I am telling you is nothing new. But the environment in which we work is undergoing rapid transformation, completely changing our situation. This is an extremely positive observation: with multiple new platforms for creation and distribution, opportunities have grown tenfold. I do not have to try to convince you. I know that you are already taking advantage of technology to communicate with Canadians who use social media such as Facebook or Twitter, news feeds or email.
Today, technology has a central role in my activities and in those of my department. We still have much work to do, but I am pleased to be able to say that in every sector of the department, there has been no shortage of achievements.
[English]
In 2009, when we renewed our cultural support programs, we took the opportunity to modernize them. We gave them a digital media component, and this change is now bearing fruit.
I would take a moment here to recognize the important point that I believe July of 2009 was the nadir of the economic recession. At the base point of the worst moment of the worst recession since the Second World War, our government renewed all of our cultural programs, including the Canada Book Fund, the Canada Media Fund and the Canada Periodical Fund, for a period of five years. There is no other government in the world that made a similar commitment to culture and official languages. A renewal of five years is also unprecedented for most of these funding envelopes. Most envelopes have been on a one- or three-year cycle. Rarely are they routed for a five-year cycle.
The thing I underline particularly to official languages communities across the country is that renewing all of these funding envelopes for five years meant that the downturn in the economy and the recession would not affect Canada's commitment to official languages and culture. There is no country in the world that can say the same thing about their commitment to culture, particularly when you look, for example, at the United States and their approach to the National Endowment for the Humanities or at Great Britain and their 25 per cent cut across the board to cultural programs. During the recession, Canada is the only country in the G8 that increased and locked in funding for five years for culture and, in Canada's case, official languages. I think that is something for which we should be incredibly proud.
The Canada Book Fund, for example, is one of those programs. It helps publishers and industry organizations from both official languages groups to adopt new technologies. I am speaking now about the technological component that was added to all of these renewals over five years.
In the Canada Book Fund, this technological component allows publishers and industry organizations to produce and promote digital books and to improve their online presence. In 2010-11, French-language Canada Book Fund recipients published approximately 500 digital titles and reported $2.6 million in digital sales and rights for their creations.
The Canada Periodical Fund supports a wide range of activities related to the production and distribution of Canadian content, both French and English, in paid print and online Canadian magazines and non-daily newspapers.
Magazines Canada has created a digital newsstand in partnership with the digital magazine provider Zinio. With the click of a button, Canadians can now order subscriptions and current and back issues of digital editions of more than 120 magazines such as Coup de Pouce or Maclean's.
On the music side, last year the Canada Music Fund added $900,000 to its yearly support for projects that increase the visibility and accessibility of Canadian music content online. The fund has contributed to the production and marketing, especially online, of more than 257 anglophone music albums and 130 francophone albums.
I would like to add that two of our cultural support programs focus mainly on interactive media. In May 2010, we launched the Canada Interactive Fund, an investment of $55 million over five years, to support the creation of digital and interactive, Canadian, cultural content by official languages minority communities and other non-profit organizations that aim to develop online, Canadian, interactive content.
As well, the Canadian Media Fund invests in the creation of screen-based media. In 2010-11, this partnership between the federal government and the broadcasting industry provided over $335 million in support for more than 500 projects. Over 2,500 hours of content was created for both traditional and new media platforms in both English and French, as well as in Aboriginal languages and various other platforms.
We also support the creation of cultural content in minority communities through the Cultural Development Fund. In its project, a Virtual Heritage Corridor, the Quebec Labrador Foundation will create the technological tools to develop a network of anglophone organizations and individuals involved in arts, culture and heritage in the Missisquoi and Richelieu region and join them together with their francophone counterparts.
[Translation]
Further, Web users will be able to explore the French and Acadian heritage of Atlantic Canada through a portal created by the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse and through the digitization work performed by the Association régionale de la côte Ouest.
I would like to add that we see digital media coming into use in minority-language schools and second-language courses.
As you know, we have agreements with the provinces and territories on minority-language teaching and second- language instruction. These agreements have made it possible to establish distance teaching networks for remote communities. They have also encouraged the use of computers in the classroom, and access to online teaching materials and online opportunities for exchanges.
Digital media represents an excellent tool for conveying information to our young people on all sorts of subjects, including our heritage and identity.
For example, last month I launched a new, free mobile application, available in both official languages, for the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812. With this app, we want to encourage Canadians, and especially young people, to participate in the celebrations and learn about their history.
The government's official app for the Royal Tour of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge is another excellent example. Available in English and French, the app was very popular in Canada and around the world.
Last, I could not forgive myself if I failed to tell you about activities of my department's portfolio organizations. Their creativity is truly remarkable. They have become models for Canada and the entire world.
The NFB makes films available to all Canadians through its mobile applications. Its online viewing site features more than 2,000 productions, close to half of them in French, shown in the original language or with subtitles. Furthermore, one section of its site focuses on French-Canadian culture and already includes around 20 titles.
Under its Web-Cine 360 program, Telefilm Canada encourages the use of online marketing and social media for Canadian feature films in English and French.
[English]
CBC/Radio-Canada offers its programming in different digital platforms, proving to be very popular, especially in French. Since its launch in January 2010, tou.tv has generated 30 million video streams. Since June 2011, the espace.mu site has enabled Canadians to listen to any kind of music online, from hip hop to jazz to world music.
The National Arts Centre contributes to the development of French content online through various initiatives, including artsalive.ca, an educational website that provides resources to students, parents and teachers.
The Canada Council for the Arts supports many Canadian artists working in digital formats. For example, it proved funding for Vithèque, a platform for the presentation, promotion and distribution of the videos and films of independent artists. More than 500 titles are now available, the majority of which are francophone productions.
[Translation]
In conclusion, Madam Chair, the potential of the Internet, social media, and digital media is immense when we are looking to promote our culture, heritage, and official languages and to create content and make it accessible, often in real time. We have outstanding achievements to our credit and we want to build on this success.
Like you, I am aware that the use of digital media involves its share of challenges, but I believe that we are heading in the right direction.
Thank you for your attention and I will follow with interest your work as it proceeds.
The Chair: Thank you, Minister.
Senator Tardif: Good morning, Minister. And welcome, Ms. Cliff and Mr. Lussier. Your 2009-10 annual report says that the study on the implementation of section 41 of the Official Languages Act in the federal administration has reminded non-designated institutions of their obligations and laid the groundwork for a new approach to interdepartmental coordination. Have the results of that study been released and can you summarize the main points for us?
Mr. Moore: When we are talking about interdepartmental work, it is easier for Mr. Lussier to talk about it as a public servant.
Hubert Lussier, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Citizenship and Heritage, Canadian Heritage: The minister has just approved the new approach as it was presented to him. It is just about to be released, in the sense that for the moment, dialogue is ongoing with federal institutions. We have been in contact with the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages, with the networks of coordinators, with the champions and with Treasury Board. Implementation will be taking place in the next few months.
Senator Tardif: Can you summarize the main points or are you not in a position to do that right now?
Mr. Lussier: I do not think it is a secret. It is about the coordination that the Minister of Canadian Heritage is responsible for in all federal institutions rather than focusing on the 33 that are referred to as designated that we coordinate at present. We will be introducing a scheme involving three categories, based on the institutions' potentials. The stronger the potential an institution has for positive actions in connection with the communities, the more stringent the rules for providing support and for accountability will be. For the others, the rules will be adapted to the potential and the requirements will be less onerous.
Senator Tardif: I certainly think that is a step in the right direction, to expand the number of institutions that are subject to it.
What is your current assessment of the performance of non-designated institutions in relation to implementation of Part VII of the Official Languages Act?
Mr. Moore: Non-designated, there continues to be, as we say in English, an "expectation". As you know, the official languages organizations, when they receive money from the government, there are mandates that we assign to each institution to deliver the goods in both official languages of Canada. That is a continuing expectation and we are not going to let it slide for each organization that receives money from the government.
Senator Tardif: There is an expectation, as you said, but is there an evaluation or follow-up for the organizations after that? This is a critical point and in fact we raised it in our report from the Senate committee, that there was a lack of consistency in relation to Part VII, and also in the last report of the Commissioner of Official Languages, he also voiced this criticism. He made recommendations in that regard. Is there an evaluation, is there follow-up with the organizations that do not meet the requirements, or are the ones who do, congratulated?
Mr. Lussier: The idea behind the approach the minister has approved is to support those institutions that are not designated and that still have statutory requirements to comply with. So that is precisely the objective behind this new approach.
In fact there are a large number of institutions, a good 20 of them, that are not designated but work closely with Canadian Heritage. I would also perhaps like to point out that the Commissioner of Official Languages included some non- designated institutions in his last report that had done a good job.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Welcome, Mr. Minister, and Ms. Cliff and Mr. Lussier as well.
My question follows on a question I also asked the President of the Treasury Board. Twelve years ago, the companies got permission from the government, from the Department of Industry, to be able to make people in cities that chose high-speed Internet pay more, in order to be able to install their system in remote communities, and in fact to provide for a broadband system so that everyone in Canada would have the same benefits.
Those companies have ignored that, and there are places more or less everywhere in Canada where some people do not have access to high-speed Internet. Are you going to back your colleague or take steps so that these companies finally have to do what they undertook to do: install all the necessary infrastructure so that all Canadians can have access to a truly efficient system?
Mr. Moore: As you know, Mr. Clement has already unveiled our broadband program for communities that need it. I am sure that Mr. Paradis will be pursuing that approach to make sure that those communities receive a service that is increasingly becoming essential.
But we also have to work with the market and not against it. From time to time, government involvement makes things a little more difficult, rather than easier, for establishing this type of service and for Internet service suppliers to be able to deliver these services outside urban areas in Canada. If Mr. Paradis, the new Minister of Industry, appears before your committee, he will certainly be able to point to those needs. As you know, he has constituents in his riding who very much need this type of approach and this type of policy. So it is something dear to his heart.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Given that yours is an important department for Canada, for francophones and anglophones, you also carry considerable weight. The weight carried by Mr. Paradis is not the only thing that can have an impact on the companies. You say you are going to leave the free market to operate, but I think that if you insist and you do something as the minister to really make sure this is equitable across Canada, that would be very important.
Mr. Moore: But it has to be completely equitable for the entire country, with the diversity there is on the ground, with the diverse markets in Canada and the diverse demands, and the Internet suppliers and what things cost. There are also the demands from the CRTC and the demands from organizations for Internet suppliers. It is not easy just to demand it or force them. I am not saying that is the role of the free market, but on the other hand it is a little more complex and it is expensive.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: But we, here, do know there is a problem.
In the Senate, we now have the chance to have the little gem of an iPad that I was so anxious to get, something I was very interested in because I had seen one of our fellow senators who was able to read whatever books he wanted while he was travelling. I tried myself to download books in French and I could not find any. You mentioned, at page 3 of your presentation, that francophone organizations have received support from the Canada Book Fund and have published approximately 500 digital titles. Have you verified that? Is that figure of 500 accurate? I could not find them, in any event.
Mr. Moore: Yes, there are some.
[English]
I will let Ms. Cliff speak to some of the elements of the book fund that we have put in place.
Keep in mind the iPad has existed for a year, maybe a year and a half total; that is iPad 1 and 2. There are iterations of these things coming forward.
The goal of the government is not to drive funding. The goal of our government should be trying to set up funding and maybe to lead the old order of things to change things, to recognize what is happening in the marketplace, but to leave things flexible. Then those who are aspiring to meet the marketplace, where the marketplace is moving, are not shut off from funds because funds are locked up in funding old media. That is the goal of things.
I have not published a book. Maybe Senator Segal can tell us about how he is planning to shift all his books into a digital environment so you can enjoy them on your iPad. The goal of the government with the book fund is to change the program so that funding is available so those who are seeking new audiences will not find out that our government has not modified our programs to make those funds accessible.
I would point out that in some of the investment cases that we have looked at as a government, where entrants have sought access — for example I think about the online bookstore — that we have also forced limits. This is one of the conditions that we imposed on Amazon as well, that they have an online content, that they highlight Canadian content and Canada's French content. You are familiar with amazon.com, and amazon.ca is the Canadian online store. Up until the intervention of our government there was not an express commitment to promote Canadian and French books on the amazon.ca website. We forced that commitment as part of the agreement for entrance into the Canadian marketplace. We have this in mind when we look at investment cases, not just our own spending as a government.
Amanda Cliff, Director General, Broadcasting and Digital Communications Branch, Canadian Heritage: That is comprehensive, minister. I do not have anything to add, other than that the basics of the book fund is to ensure there is a range of funding for publishers and the industry to increase their presence on line, to promote digital books and to digitize content. That, as the minister has said, represents a significant investment in the sector.
In terms of online content, I think when the Internet was first up, generally content was in English more often than any other language. We are now seeing greater use of the Internet by francophone Canadians because content in French is reaching a parallel with the English content.
Mr. Moore: An important point to make is that we are also in early days with regard to this technology. There is the Kobo, the Kindle, the iPad, the PlayBook and other technologies out there, all of which use different application stores and formats. Where you are purchasing your books on line, for example with the iPad, their online store may not be as evolved with regard to French content as other online bookstores. In time it will catch up.
We are in the first year with this technology, for the most part, particularly with regard to books. It is coming along. As more people buy the device and realize the market is there, things will shift.
The point that I think needs to be made is that given the shifting of the digital media, the shifting of the content and the way that creators and publishers are trying to create something to engage in the marketplace, it is essential for book publishers and consumers to have effective copyright legislation that allows this kind of digital content to be protected. That is also what we are trying to do with Bill C-11 that we put before the House of Commons. Copyright and intellectual property law needs to be updated. It has been not since I was a very young boy, and it needs to be. We have put that legislation forward, and I hope the official opposition — none of whom are here, which is great — will see and understand the need to do exactly what you described, to bring forward books that represent the diversity of Canada's creative communities.
[Translation]
Senator Segal: I would like to ask the minister to share his views on the situation of francophone minority groups outside Quebec. You know, they are somewhat threatened, from the point of view of language and writing, by the large anglophone culture that surrounds them.
[English]
I notice that there have been some interesting innovations in the department in the digital area, supporting, for example, the Government of Saskatchewan.
[Translation]
It is a program designed for the Fransaskois, but it is an initiative that supports the Collège universitaire de Saint- Boniface, for example.
[English]
Part of our problem in Canada with the francophone minorities is that many of their critical needs fall under provincial jurisdiction over which the federal government has no formal control. On the other hand, clearly in Saskatchewan, Manitoba and other places, you have found ways to provide support to provincial institutions, which are themselves developing a digital portal for providing information and situation and pushing out in the French language for French language minorities. Is this part of a larger plan, a larger program, aimed at the provinces that have minorities most under threat?
[Translation]
Are these unique situations? Does this come as a key idea that can be funded with no problem? Or is a plan being developed to use NEXUS between the federal government and the provincial government to protect the interests of our francophone fellow Canadians who live in the provinces that are 90 per cent anglophone?
Mr. Moore: Yes, we are working together. We do not want to use intimidation against them, we have to work together. We also have to be aware of the fact that there are different dynamics in each region. My department was asked to get involved in the debate about the education system in New Brunswick. That is their jurisdiction; it is not up to me, as an anglophone from western Canada, to get involved in something under provincial jurisdiction. I am sure there are also political dynamics in Quebec that we should not be getting into. Every year, we have conferences with the departments responsible for culture and official languages, various meetings with various ministers responsible for those areas of jurisdiction, where we work and discuss subjects that could improve the case of minority groups.
[English]
I think, because it is still very recent in memory, for this exact dynamic of governments working together to deliver for official language minority communities by far the marquis moments on which all other moments should be benchmarked are the 2010 Olympic Games and Paralympic Games in Vancouver and Whistler. It really was an astonishing eye-opening moment. You had an organization like VANOC that committed for years that everything would be fine — and for the most part the games were, the opening ceremonies notwithstanding. However, what people do not realize is the scramble that took place in the three months prior to the games to get them up to where they needed to be to deliver the bilingual games that they did was quite astonishing.
At the time, almost none of the websites of the Government of British Columbia were in French, even tourism websites, basic health information and transportation information. None were translated into French for the Canadians and the international community that would be coming there. Keep in mind as well that the Olympic Games' first language is French. They are bilingual, but their first language is actually French. For the Olympic Games in Vancouver, organizations like TransLink, the transportation authority for the Lower Mainland, did not have kiosks with pamphlets in French. That was really astonishing. What makes it a helpful benchmark is that in the City of Vancouver, French, I believe, is the eighth language, but the provincial government websites were not translated. Many of our national sport organizations, whose marquis athletes were francophones, did not have their own websites in French. You can say this is astonishing. Who is this brilliant athlete? Who is this great speed skater from Rimouski, Quebec? However, when you go to the website for the national sport organization, it was all in English. You think how is this possible? We are spending so much money and we have such a commitment and we are so proud, how is it possible?
I think that is a benchmark for a pan-Canadian national exercise of the largest international event that Canada has ever hosted with such immense pressure where we knew going in that more than a third of the athletes at the games — half the athletes as it turned out — were from Quebec, and there were francophones from outside of Quebec as well. Yet national sports organizations had not translated their websites, the Government of British Columbia, the City of Vancouver and the transportation authority for the region did not have basic products in French? That is unacceptable. That is a benchmark. In spite of all that pressure, the mad scramble that took place in the three weeks leading up to the games was, for me, an eye-opening experience.
I was frustrated on two parts. I was the minister responsible for the Olympics for the federal government and I was also the minister for Official Languages. We were hosting the 2010 games and, as my colleagues Mr. Lussier and Ms. Cliff can attest, I was incredibly frustrated. About a month before the opening ceremonies of the Olympics, the House of Commons recessed; it was just before Christmas. I went to YVR, the Vancouver International Airport, and I spoke to the person that YVR had on staff — I do not think the person is there anymore — whose responsibility was to bring the airport up to a bilingual standard that would be more than acceptable for the hosting of the games. I went to the airport and said, "I am going to walk through this airport, from check-in to walking on to the plane and everything in between. I am going to go through the shops. I want to go to the bathroom. I want to get a coffee. I want to go to the gate. I want to go through security. I am going to do everything as though I am a francophone. I will not speak a word of English and I will tell you what I see." We went through and they made a list. I said, "I am going to try to experience the Olympic experience as Jean-François Gadoury from Rimouski, Quebec. I went through the airport as a francophone. It was astonishing how, one month prior to the games, they were not ready.
At that time, they had a massive map, the largest in the room. Every airport does. They always put their airport in the middle of the map and show how their airport connects to the world. They do that here and in São Paulo; they do it everywhere. It was a massive new map in the newly renovated airport at YVR, with Vancouver International Airport in the middle of it. It said, "Canada welcomes the world; Vancouver welcomes the world," all in English. I said, "This is a problem."
I remember going into the Vancouver 2010 kiosk where you buy T-shirts, hats, calendars and everything else. I looked at the store from 20 feet back and I said, "This is a problem." They said, "Why?" I said, "Well, all the signs say, 'Buy your T-shirts here, $19.99."' The backside was in French, butted up against the wall. I said, "If I am a francophone and I am coming here, this is not a bilingual Olympic experience. The Olympic experience needs to be thoroughly bilingual. You need to understand that." We were walking through this and they made a long list of things that were inadequate.
I went back two weeks later and they were all changed, but it took the minister to go there and say to the person, "Do you not understand the basic elements of an experience that is bilingual?" It was frustrating.
Truth be told, the person who had been hired by Vancouver International Airport to do this was a francophone, just asleep at the switch. It was not good enough. It was a very eye-opening experience.
Senator Segal: I wish you would get off the fence and tell us how you really feel!
[Translation]
Senator Champagne: Thank you, Madam Chair. The most frustrating thing in the situation you describe is that before you had your experience at the airport, we had had the people from VANOC at the committee and we had tried to make them understand the situation.
I recall that the day after the opening of the games, you said you were disappointed or sorry, and I answered that I was furious, myself. And I really was.
Recently in Parliament we have had some amazing chaos coming from all the media when there were unilingual anglophone people appointed to our environment.
Today, we have the same problem with the Caisse de dépôt et placement in Quebec, where people have realized that there are managers who are unilingual anglophones and one of them is in charge of hiring people.
If we are to hope that one day people who want to be appointed to positions will be bilingual, bilingualism that you acquired, as you said, thanks to the immersion schools in your province, it is preferable for people to learn a language when they are younger.
In 2009 or 2010, you signed a memorandum of understanding with the Council of Ministers of Education on minority language education and second language instruction. What form does that take, in day-to-day terms?
Mr. Moore: Those funds, and Senator Segal has correctly noted the need to work with the provinces, is one of the success stories in our commitment to working with the provinces: it is $1 billion over five years, if I recall correctly. That is our agreement with the provinces, the Councils of Ministers of Education. It does not include Quebec. As usual, Quebec is not included in the agreement.
So we are going to have an agreement with each province to add funds so that young people can be educated in both of Canada's official languages. It operates based on their needs. We are working together. We have requirements relating to this new money, but we are aware that we must not get involved in the dynamic that exists in each province. In British Columbia and New Brunswick, there is a commitment in relation to official languages that is really very different from what is found in other provinces and we have to be aware of that.
The provinces are really happy with the money we are talking about, with the commitment and the length of the agreement. When it comes time to renew that budget envelope, we will have a long conversation with them to deliver the goods in the way that is suitable for them.
Senator Champagne: Premier Charest has proposed and implemented a system where students in grade six receive their education, whether it be mathematics or history or whatever, in another language. Is that maybe the way to do it?
Premier Charest, with an anglophone mother, was born with both feet firmly planted in bilingualism, but for people like you and me, it was different. The younger you are when you learn a second language, the easier it is.
When we had recently moved to an English neighbourhood, my children, who were five or six or seven years old, would have liked to go back where we came from, they complained that everyone spoke only English in our new community. I told them: "You have heard English being spoken since you were born, get out there and you will see." Ultimately, a year and a half later, all the children in the neighbourhood were switching from one language to another with no accent and with no problem.
It is much harder to learn another language after the age of 50. The ideal way is for it to be done in the schools. I am delighted that Quebec is part of this project. However, if we want to have these schools, the problem is finding teachers, that is the problem right now, teachers who will be able to change school boards and do grade six with children who have studied in French only. This would seem to be a major problem.
I hope it will be possible to do it with the money you say you have given out.
Your bilingualism, you acquired it when you were a child in an immersion school; you did not learn it as an adult?
Mr. Moore: That is right. But we need to talk a little about teachers. Yes, there are problems, but a majority of these barriers are caused by the unions. I can tell you where the differences lie between each of the provinces, the way the education system is organized and how teachers are hired in the education system.
[English]
In the province of Ontario there are five teachers' unions. In the province of British Columbia there is one, the B.C. Teachers' Federation, which is an incredibly powerful union. Relative to other unions and relative to the audience they serve, it is perhaps the most powerful union in the country. I come from a family of teachers. My mother was a French teacher in the 1970s, one of the first, and my sister is a French teacher in Burnaby today and has been for about 15 years. I come from a family of anglophones who teach French on the West Coast. I grew up learning French; almost all of my teachers were francophones from Quebec who came to British Columbia. However, over time, union power control has become tighter and tighter and there is a closed shop approach to this. Not bringing in new talent from outside the province has been to the detriment of the teaching of Canada's official languages in the province of British Columbia.
Senator Champagne: There is still a problem in different parts of the country where French teachers are not necessarily the right people. I was speaking with people from Ontario recently who did not know how to tell the difference between "feu" and "fou." It is just a question of bringing the tongue back, but they do not know that.
Mr. Moore: I hope that if the moment arrives they can say, "Feu! Feu!"
[Translation]
Senator Champagne: That would be completely "fou." Let us hope that qualified individuals can be found somewhere so we will have another generation of bilingual people.
Mr. Moore: I agree and this is very definitely a point that needs to be stressed at our next meeting with the departments responsible for la Francophonie in Canada. We really need to talk with the teachers and about their commitment.
At the same time, it is harder for a francophone to move to Vancouver to teach French there. The fact that the teachers who are already there have to be removed is very frustrating for them. I have a lot of respect for them. We should eliminate the barriers when it comes to the use of French in our schools because of the unions.
Senator Champagne: One thing that could be done too: when my son was attending university in Toronto, he supported himself practising French conversation with students in the Toronto area. That kind of exchange could easily be done between the provinces.
[English]
Mr. Moore: This is an important point. I will extend my time by five minutes.
As you know, Graham Fraser has done his examination of post-secondary education. The University of Northern British Columbia, where I did my undergraduate studies, was established in 1992. I graduated in 2000, just before I ran for office. I wanted to study political science, and to me one cannot understand Canadian politics without fully appreciating the Quiet Revolution and the speeches made in Quebec. These things are essential. If you do not read it, hear it and learn it in French, your degree is really missing something.
I was bilingual. One of my professors, Tracy Somerville, an anglophone, did her Ph.D. at Laval. She was a brilliant young professor. I borrowed books from her by Quebec authors who were describing the political dynamic in Quebec around Meech, Charlottetown and the Quiet Revolution, all those great debates that were formative of the contemporary Canadian political culture.
It was astonishing to me to learn that at the University of Northern British Columbia, a brand new university with a newly established curriculum, including a healthy faculty of the arts, there was not a single course taught in French. They had German; they had Spanish; and I think they also had Swedish as part of their circumpolar university network — but no French.
The teaching of French in schools is not only a K to 12 challenge. It extends to universities as well, particularly in the arts. French culture, politics and language are tied together. To not hear the arguments in the language in which they were communicated is to miss the passion and the underlying essence of them. When students cannot learn French or improve their French so that they can engage in the literature on Canadian politics in French, it is a missed opportunity.
[Translation]
The Chair: Mr. Minister, you are impressive, you understand how things are.
Senator De Bané: Mr. Minister, one section of your speech this morning is entitled "Promotion of our identity."
Obviously the biggest engine for talking about our identity is the CBC/Radio-Canada. What I would like to tell you is that when I read the Broadcasting Act, where the Parliament of Canada has described the purpose of creating a public broadcaster, the mission is very clear: it talks about promoting common values and reflecting this country, and also its regions.
When I watch Radio-Canada, however, no, I do not see that. I do not see any connection between what I see, what I hear, on this cultural engine and what I read in the Broadcasting Act. And I say to myself: when are we going to wake up and realize that if all Canadians contribute to the creation of this network, it is unreasonable for nearly all the news on Radio-Canada to relate primarily to one province, Quebec, with news about the international scene coming in a very, very distant second and one or two short news items about Canada toward the end.
And that means that I have to tune in to the CBC to find out what is happening in Canada. There are four million unilingual francophone Quebeckers. They cannot tune in to the CBC the way bilingual francophone Quebeckers can. No one in Canada is interested in tuning in to a propaganda network, but if I ask myself which are the most respected media in the world, whether it be The New York Times, The Globe and Mail, Le Monde, the Guardian or the most prestigious German newspapers, each of them is based in a particular country and provides the perspective of that country.
I will give you just one example out of many: every morning, from 5 a.m. to 9 a.m., on Radio-Canada, there is a program on the radio called "C'est bien meilleur le matin." And during that four-hour program they occasionally talk with a correspondent, or two or three, in a country somewhere in the world, but never with a correspondent in another Canadian province. One example out of many.
And when I write to the president of the network, and I say: I listen to this radio host, and every time he is unable to convey his thought in French, he uses the English expression and then he says: "As they say in Chinese." I said: Sir, a majority of the funding for Radio-Canada comes from those Chinese people. And he is incapable of saying the word "English" at that point. And he replies: "Listen, it is a small detail, it is not important." He repeats "as they say in Chinese" five or six times in a single broadcast, incapable of saying the word "English" out loud.
So I say to myself, Mr. Minister, this is the Canadian government's most important engine. We spend hours every day watching it. And I will tell you — and no one will be able to say otherwise — that if you tune in to the radio or television programs on Radio-Canada, you will never know about the whole country. It deals with one province, from virtually every perspective.
The second block consists of international news, which is not Canada. This is not reasonable.
The Chair: Senator De Bané, your question please.
Senator De Bané: I would like you to tell me whether you are going to look into this problem; look into whether someone needs to speak with the board of directors, since Radio-Canada is independent of the government. But we cannot close our eyes indefinitely. That is what I wanted to say to you about promoting identity, the subject that constantly annoys me.
Mr. Moore: I understand that your question is whether I agree with that. The most profound argument in Canada, I think, for the existence of the CBC, is the mandate to deliver the news, broadcasts in every part of the country. Not only in both of Canada's official languages, but also in the eight Aboriginal languages, as you know. That is its mandate. It is essential that the CBC continue making this kind of investment in the regions and it is also important that it be sensitive to the things that Senator De Bané has noted: the need to demonstrate a quality of French, a quality of service in every region of the country.
I think that one of the problems, and this is a little like with our health care system, is that the discussions in the media about the CBC and about our health care system are about the question of how much we are going to invest. In my opinion, the question is really whether, first, we agree that we need the CBC. Yes or no? Yes, okay. Second, what is its mandate? And third, how much does it need to fulfil its mandate? Those are the three questions.
But the mandate itself, and how it is going to fulfil it, is a much more profound question, in my opinion, than just the amounts of money allocated and whether or not to increase them, whether we will spend more money than the previous government, whether we are more in favour of the CBC, whether we are anti-artist, and so on. That is not the case. By saving money or spending different amounts, we may get a different product, but it has to be a quality product. Exactly as you say, without the CBC there is no broadcaster in British Columbia that can tell us in French what is happening in the other regions of Canada. Without the CBC, all of the information now available in the North in the Aboriginal languages would not exist because there is no market for providing that type of service. It is essential that the CBC deliver those goods.
And I am sure that if Senator Chaput, the committee chair, asks Hubert Lacroix and his team to come here and testify and talk to you about their mandate and how they are trying to deliver those services with the funds they have, that would be a very important discussion.
Today, as you know, the discussion is solely about the funding they receive, but that is not really the question; the question is how they spend those funds in an electronic environment to serve the needs of Canadians in an official language minority situation.
The Chair: Mr. Minister, the committee has just decided to undertake a study. The notice of motion was introduced in the Senate this week dealing with the CBC/Radio-Canada, its obligations under the Official Languages Act and certain obligations in relation to the act governing the CRTC. We will have an opportunity to discuss this again.
Senator Poirier: First, I am perhaps the best example of the progress that has been made over the years.
I was born into a francophone family in New Brunswick, in an English-speaking locale, where the only French we learned in school in those days was "la porte," "la fenêtre," "le plancher," and "le plafond." So we have made a lot of progress since that time.
[English]
I want to go back to what we are actually studying here, the social media with respect to Canadian language rights. I have two questions. One has to do with that, and one relates to the other senator's question.
Do you think it is possible for all Canadians at this point to use Internet, new media, social media, in the official language of their choice, regardless of their condition or place of residence, even if they have a handicap of being blind or deaf or impaired? Do you think the federal government, in the media and educational sector, is capable of meeting the language needs of anglophones and francophones in all sectors even if they have a handicap?
Mr. Moore: There are failures in the system, without doubt, and I think provinces and the federal government are aspiring and working towards trying to fix those. Keep in mind that many of these failings are very complicated to address. Anybody who would argue that these things are entirely seamless, flawless and perfect across the system is fooling himself.
Senator Poirier: There is continued work being done at all times.
[Translation]
My second question follows on Senator Fortin-Duplessis' question and concerns the agreement you have with the provinces to transfer funds for education, for promoting the second language in minority communities. Is there follow- up to see whether those provinces are in fact using those funds for the purposes for which they are intended, to help the second language in minority communities?
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: That was my question.
Mr. Moore: There are measures for accountability.
Mr. Lussier: Just quickly, the provinces all submit reports. They undertake to spend the money under the two categories you mentioned, second language instruction or minority language education. The amounts are predetermined and they prepare reports afterwards that are detailed enough that we can be confident in that.
The Chair: Mr. Minister, we are very grateful to you for appearing here this morning. I would like to add that you are undoubtedly aware that we have undertaken — the committee is interested in the results of the audit done by the Commissioner of Official Languages in relation to Air Canada and its language obligations. We have not had time to discuss that with you. But could you send us your comments on that subject, because that is another study the committee has undertaken, Air Canada's language obligations, working with the report by the Commissioner of Official Languages? Would that be possible?
Mr. Moore: Yes, as you know, from the outset, our government expects this. That is the law. Air Canada has to provide services in both of Canada's official languages. I know it is becoming more and more complex with how the company is changing. As you know, in the past, our government introduced a bill on this subject and I am sure the new Minister of Transport, Mr. Lebel, will be prepared to answer your questions about this in detail. That is the best way to proceed to make sure that Air Canada is accountable for respecting the official languages of Canada.
The Chair: Perhaps your staff could look into what the commissioner said in his audit. If you have comments about that, could they send them to our committee? Could your staff send comments about that in writing?
Mr. Moore: Yes, but the Minister of Transport is the one responsible for this issue. In the past, he was the one who introduced the bill about this. If you want me to come back in future, I can certainly come back to discuss any subject you may choose.
The Chair: You prefer not to comment about the audit done by the Commissioner of Official Languages? It is not necessary, perhaps, in your opinion?
Mr. Moore: I have no comment on his report at this time.
The Chair: Thank you. Our thanks to you and your staff.
(The committee adjourned.)