Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 8 - Evidence - Meeting of March 26, 2012
OTTAWA, Monday, March 26, 2012
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at, 5:03 p.m., to examine the use of the Internet, new media and social media and the respect for Canadians' language rights, as well as to study CBC/Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act.
Senator Maria Chaput (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Honourable senators, welcome to the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. Allow me to introduce myself. I am Senator Maria Chaput from Manitoba, chair of the committee.
Before introducing the witnesses appearing today, I would like to invite committee members to introduce themselves.
Senator Tardif: I am Claudette Tardif from Alberta.
Senator Robichaud: I am Fernand Robichaud from Saint-Louis-de-Kent, New Brunswick.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I am Senator Suzanne Fortin-Duplessis from Quebec City.
[English]
Senator Buth: JoAnne Buth from Manitoba.
[Translation]
The Chair: The committee is continuing its study of the Internet, new media and social media and the respect for Canadians' language rights. It is also beginning its study on CBC/Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act.
First, the committee will hear from the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, followed by CBC/Radio-Canada, as part of its studies.
We now welcome representatives of the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission. We have with us Scott Hutton, Executive Director of Broadcasting; Paulette Leclair, Director of Public Affairs; Véronique Lehoux, Legal Counsel; and Paul Comeau, Senior Communications Officer. Welcome.
I now invite Mr. Hutton to take the floor. The senators will follow with questions.
Scott Hutton, Executive Director of Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission: Honourable senators, we want to thank you for giving the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission the opportunity to appear before the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages.
I will begin with the first study, the one dealing with the use of the Internet, digital media and social media in the context of Canadians' language rights.
Since the late 1990s, the Internet has been imposing profound changes on communications activities, both here in Canada and around the world. Canadians are increasingly using digital media to access audiovisual and musical content.
The following statistics speak volumes: on a weekly basis, we note that anglophones spend a little over 18 hours online, while francophones spend 13 hours. Moreover, 38 per cent of anglophones and 41 per cent of francophones watch television shows online. Also, 63 per cent of anglophones and 60 per cent of francophones listen to streamed music.
As you note in the brief that is the basis of your study, all sectors of the economy are influenced by these new modes of communication. These changes raise numerous challenges for governments, particularly with regard to language rights.
The CRTC is obliged to respect Treasury Board guidelines on websites. In response to these guidelines, the commission completely overhauled its website in 2009, but maintained its respect for the requirements of official languages legislation. In fact, we post the English and French versions of all public documents simultaneously, once we have ensured that the texts are of equal quality in both languages.
Since 2009, the commission has held five online consultations to make it easier for Canadians to get involved with issues that affect them directly. For each consultation, the CRTC produced a short video in English and French to draw attention to the following issues: practices for managing Internet traffic; the value of local television signals; basic television and Internet services; wholesale high-speed access services, and the renewal of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's licences.
The CRTC also expanded its communications activities by using social media to reach a greater number of Canadians, in both official languages.
In fact, last June, the CRTC conducted a pilot project on the use of Twitter during a public hearing. All CRTC communications were in both official languages, including hash tags and real time responses from staff to questions put to us. We also saw this as an opportunity to improve public understanding of our mandate and to quickly correct any myths, rumours or misinformation. The CRTC has had an active presence on Twitter since that pilot project.
This presence is consistent with the guidelines issued by Treasury Board last November.
We analyzed the guidelines and amended our practices in order to ensure that they are compliant. For example, as of a few weeks ago, the CRTC has a Twitter account in each official language.
[English]
I would now like to address the CRTC's role in the context of the study on CBC that you began last fall. In carrying out its mandate, the CRTC ensures that the Canadian broadcasting system reflects the country's linguistic duality. As an administrative tribunal with quasi-judicial functions, a significant part of the commission's mandate involves implementing the policy objectives set out in the Broadcasting Act. To do this, we consider all of the objectives mentioned in the act, including linguistic duality.
As a national public broadcaster, the CBC must meet the objectives of the Broadcasting Act in order to properly serve all Canadians, including official language minority communities, or OLMCs.
Because the CBC is a federal institution under the Official Languages Act, like the CRTC, it reports annually on how it has met its obligations under section 41 of the act and provides an update of the broadcast year. In addition, the CRTC requires the corporation to file, within three months of the end of each broadcast year, a report dealing specifically with French-language television. Among other things, this report describes any adjustments made to address the needs of French-speaking Canadians outside Quebec.
We planned to hold hearings in June on the renewal of the CBC's radio and television licences. However, because of the tabling of the budget, the corporation asked the CRTC to put the hearings off to a later date so that it could establish its operating budget before conditions of licence are imposed. The commission acceded to this request and postponed this process until further notice.
I would like to take this opportunity to inform you of some of the decisions we have made since last year.
First, in March 2011, the CRTC approved the acquisition of CTVglobemedia by BCE. Among other thing, this transaction will mean improved access to the Canadian broadcasting system through a new independent fund of $5.7 million for accessibility issues. This decision is consistent with our 2009 regulatory policy requiring English and French-language broadcasters to improve the quality of closed captioning and provide more programming with described video.
Then, last August, the CRTC granted the CBC an additional year to convert some of its analog transmitters to digital, while other broadcasters had to complete the transition by August 31, 2011. The reason for this decision is that the CBC operates the largest numbers of transmitters in the country: 66 in mandatory markets and 413 in non- mandatory markets.
Among these transmitters, there are 22 that rebroadcast the signals of local CBC stations into other communities. Those communities are considered mandatory markets but the CBC has no plans to replace the current transmitters with digital transmitters. In granting this extension, the commission ensured that OLMCs in certain markets will not lose access to the signals of television stations in the language of their choice. The CRTC plans to review the CBC's long-term plans for over-the-air analog transmitters before August 31, 2012.
[Translation]
Finally, we amended our satellite distribution policy last fall to ensure that Canadians can access the services of the CBC in their province. We are requiring Bell TV to distribute at least 43 additional television stations by August 31, 2012, while Shaw Direct will have to distribute all conventional television stations that are eligible for support from the Local Programming Improvement Fund by January 1, 2013.
The CRTC is working closely with OLMCs on several levels. First of all, in 2007, we created a discussion group that brings together community representatives and commission staff. The meetings, which take place twice a year, give staff an opportunity to familiarize themselves with OLMCs' needs, priorities and realities. They also enable community representatives to identify the commission's public proceedings that could have an impact on their growth and vitality, and in which OLMCs can participate in order to make their views known.
We are pleased to note that the discussion group's work has provided for greater OLMC participation in the commission's public proceedings, and that the quality of their interventions has improved a great deal. This participation provides for systematic use by the CRTC of an internal tool that is essentially a step-by-step process for assessing the impact on OLMCs of the commission's options and possible decision. This tool is available on the commission's internal site and enables CRTC staff to better meet their obligations under section 41 of the Official Languages Act.
Senators, I have just provided you with an overview of the many activities that reflect the CRTC's commitment to respecting the Broadcasting Act and the Official Languages Act. My colleagues and I would be happy to answer your questions.
The Chair: Thank you very much, sir.
[English]
Senator Buth: You have given an example of using social media such as Twitter. Are you using any other types of social media?
Supplementary to that, how are you measuring the success of using social media, and are you finding any differences between French and English in that?
Mr. Hutton: We primarily use Twitter, although we are currently re-evaluating the options of other social media such as Facebook and LinkedIn.
Ms. Leclair can provide us with a few details and statistics.
Paulette Leclair, Director, Public Affairs, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission: Thank you for the question. We started with Twitter because it was the best way for us to reach as many Canadians as possible. As you know, our main communication tool is our website, but we thought that for the purposes of CRTC Twitter was the best tool. We are looking into using Facebook. We are currently working on our social media plan for 2012-13. Once that plan is completed, we will look at what needs to be done.
It is difficult to provide statistics yet because we only started using Twitter last June. In order to follow Treasury Board guidelines with regard to social media, we recently created our French Twitter account and it would therefore be difficult to provide statistics at this time.
[Translation]
Senator De Bané: Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Hutton, how do you interpret your obligations with regard to the CBC? Is it important to you that the CBC carry out the mandate assigned it, to:
(ii) reflect Canada and its regions to national and regional audiences, while serving the special needs of those regions.
I have two other questions in relation to that. Are you taking measures to ensure that the CBC carries out its mandate in that area?
In your opinion, is the CBC carrying out that part of its mandate? If that is not the case, what do you intend to do about it?
I was inspired to ask that question by a 250-page report by Dr. Marie-Linda Lord, of the Université acadienne de Moncton, author and former Radio-Canada journalist. The title of that report is, The National, for Canada; Le Téléjournal, for Quebec. The title amply sums up the first question I just asked you.
Mr. Hutton: Thank you, senator. The role the CRTC plays with regard to the CBC is similar to and, at the same time, different from the role it plays with private broadcasters.
The CRTC oversees the industry as a whole and ensures and sees to it that all broadcasters achieve all the objectives of the act. There is a minor difference in the CBC's case because, as you noted, it has a specific mandate under the act.
Senator De Bané: A mandate that warrants having all Canadian taxpayers pay for the service?
Mr. Hutton: Indeed. On the whole, we ensure that the objectives of the act are achieved by the system as a whole and by the CBC in particular.
How has the CRTC traditionally ensured that all the objectives, and more specifically those of the CBC, have been achieved? It has done so by imposing licensing and licence renewal conditions. At all stated periods, we have a discussion, a hearing concerning the CBC's licences.
In the context of those hearings, we discuss the objectives or we require the CBC to be accountable for achieving their various objectives.
The last time we conducted that exercise was in 2000, and we did so precisely in order to ask the CBC to carry out its mandate at the national, regional and local levels. We established various expectations and licensing conditions that differed from those imposed on individual stations regarding the number of hours of local programming that had to be produced. We also asked CBC/Radio-Canada to broadcast a number of hours of regionally produced programs.
We also asked it to do a better a job of reflecting the country as a whole, not so much by setting a licensing condition, but rather in more general areas so that it meets expectations. We use our regulatory methods at those three levels.
In your second question, you ask whether we demand that businesses be accountable. Yes. In the case of CBC/ Radio-Canada, we require an annual report on all expectations and licensing conditions. The number of hours is identified, both locally and regionally; we also identify regional productions and productions from various locations. We also enable the business to show us how they are trying, or will try, to meet this request to project a reflection of the country.
In your third question, you asked for my opinion on whether we believe it is meeting the various conditions in this area. I can tell you that, at first glance, based on quantitative information, it appears to be performing relatively well and, in a number of cases, even to be exceeding the expectations or licensing conditions that we have put in place.
I would like to say that the last set of conditions covers a period of slightly more than one decade. Consequently, among the various actions that should be carried out in the next renewal, we hope to announce, when we resume the exercise very soon, that we will be trying to take a somewhat closer look at the reflecting issue beyond purely empirical concerns and to talk a little more about the qualitative aspect.
I believe that was why you raised your question.
Senator De Bané: Do you think that Dr. Lord's finding that The National provides Canadian coverage, whereas Le Téléjournal provides coverage of Quebec is not accurate?
Mr. Hutton: I cannot give you a firm opinion because, in the context of the process, we have to give the runners a chance to establish their positions.
Senator De Bané: Would it surprise you if I told you that a lot of francophones, in both Quebec and the rest of Canada, tune in to CBC Newsworld if they want to know what is going on in Canada?
Mr. Hutton: We said that, at the start of our renewal process, we conducted an online consultation of Canadians. One of the points raised in that consultation was the lack of reflection in the various regions. So your comment does not surprise me.
Senator De Bané: During a recent trip to Acadia, Céline Galipeau was asked how it was that, according to Dr. Lord's report, the CBC provided four times as much coverage of Acadian society as Radio-Canada. Ms. Galipeau said she was surprised to see that surprised them, since, as Quebecers have no interest in what goes on in the rest of Canada, that subject gets no coverage.
Having said that, I would like you to tell us how you interpret the interests, needs and rights of francophones outside Quebec. Do those francophones, like other people, have a right to know what is going on nationally? At great cost, they will be given stations that cover their regional affairs, but they cannot get onto the national network?
So francophones outside Quebec will be shown what is going on in their area, in Acadia, in Manitoba, Ontario, British Columbia and Alberta, but will that news be broadcast on the entire network at 10 p.m.? No, those hours are not for them; they are for Quebec.
I would like to know what the CRTC thinks of that way of doing things.
Mr. Hutton: The fact that this is called the "regionalization" or the "Montrealization" of the airwaves, or the idea that Radio-Canada simply reflects Quebec, is definitely an issue of interest to the CRTC. The commission has already issued a public notice, and, although the hearing has not yet been held, we have nevertheless published our notice of hearing.
Senator De Bané: When will it be held? In the fall?
Mr. Hutton: It may be in the fall or the spring of 2013; those are two options that we are considering. That is on the agenda for this year, or the CRTC's fiscal year starting April 1. The issue of regionalization and of reflecting the country as a whole is definitely a point that will be discussed at that hearing. We have already identified it in the public notice, and we are seeking some accountability in that area.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I have two questions for you. First, in the summer of 2011, you conducted an online consultation for the renewal of CBC/Radio-Canada's licences. I imagine the information gathered during that consultation will be taken into consideration for the next hearing on the renewal of CBC/Radio-Canada's licences, which will be held later on this year. I also note that the CRTC has conducted other online consultations in the past.
One thing somewhat surprised me: you received more responses from anglophones across the country than from francophones. I know there are fewer francophones than anglophones in Canada, but can you tell us why you think that was the case?
Mr. Hutton: In that specific case, I cannot say why the CRTC received fewer responses. I can offer a more general thought, and we somewhat deliberately mentioned this in our statistics, in the speech; there are probably various reasons. However, the anglophone market, English-speaking Canadians, use the Internet and social media much more than francophones. For us, the ratio of users on our website is about five to one. We do not yet have any firm statistics for our Twitter account, but the initial statistics nevertheless show that we have a lot of anglophone subscribers and a much smaller number of francophone subscribers. That is somewhat a reflection of the fact that — and we also deliberately cited some data in this regard — when a service is offered, francophones use it equally, but the market is less developed in French Canada than in English Canada. That may be somewhat as a result of the pure availability of services over the Internet.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: In the last paragraph on page 3 of your brief, you say:
Among these transmitters, there are 22 that rebroadcast the signals of local CBC stations into other communities. Those communities are considered mandatory markets, but the CBC has no plans to replace the current transmitters with digital transmitters.
Do you have the power to require them to replace them — and they then can get their money from other items?
Mr. Hutton: The CRTC is an organization that grants permission to operate. It is often difficult, on a case-by-case basis, to require someone to do something, to require someone to broadcast from a certain location.
To answer your question specifically, we require no one to do anything. That is more part of a whole discussion at the time of renewal. On renewal, our intention was to discuss matters to determine the various options for meeting the needs of the Broadcasting Act, which requires that the CBC's services be made available to the largest possible number of Canadians. Note, however, that the act requires them to make a maximum effort, but that is not an absolute obligation.
Senator Champagne: Before I ask my question, please allow me two very brief comments. The first is that I apologize for being late; no one put a helicopter at my disposal.
I wanted to take this opportunity to thank the CRTC, which, following the hearings that most of us attended, decided to give TV5 Québec-Canada some respite. I believe that the fact it is still possible for minority francophones to access TV5 at no extra cost, and without it being bundled in with the Italians, the Spanish and Al Jazeera, was very much appreciated, and I wanted to thank you.
My question is this: I admit to my utter ignorance, but what restrictions can the CRTC impose on the two Crown corporations under its jurisdiction regarding collaboration and cooperation? Surely there are restrictions somewhere. I could tell you a story, but perhaps you can answer me right away, which would save us some time.
Mr. Hutton: If I clearly understand your question on restrictions, the act requires the CRTC to consult CBC/Radio- Canada before imposing any licensing conditions. When we prepare to proceed with a renewal, we hold a hearing, propose certain licensing conditions at that hearing and conduct discussions. Once the decision is made within the CRTC, there is an obligation to consult CBC/Radio-Canada on the conditions we are putting in place. That is an obligation: we consult before making them public. That aspect differs in the case of private broadcasters. When we impose a licensing condition on a private broadcaster, it is not absolute, but we make the decision; everything is under our scrutiny. Here, since we have an obligation to consult, it follows that Radio-Canada or the CBC may then appeal to the minister on those specific issues. So there is a minor difference in the restrictions and licensing conditions that we can impose.
Senator Champagne: Madam Chair, with your permission, I would like to tell you a story about a very recent incident that may perhaps clarify what I mean.
We regularly listen to CBC Radio 2 at home; we love Julie Nesrallah's program, Tempo. She always presents a varied selection of high-quality music. On Fridays, she has a special feature on her program called, Music That Rocked Your World, during which she invites listeners to share personal moments in their musical lives.
We recently sent her an unusual story about something that happened in Barcelona, when circumstances permitted us to spend two hours with the surviving daughter of composer Enrique Granados. We had the opportunity to spend two hours in her family home and had the privilege of visiting their personal museum, where we saw, for example, an enormous silver urn that had been awarded to Granados by President Wilson of the United States.
You may remember that, during the war, the opera Goyescas was to have its premiere in Paris, but that, because of the war, it took place in New York. As Mr. and Ms. Granados were preparing to return to Europe, the president invited the composer and pianist to give a concert at the White House, where he gave him this enormous inscribed urn, which was full of gold and silver pieces. They therefore delayed their trip by two weeks and took the boat to England. From England, they took the ferry Sussex to cross to France. The Sussex was sunk by U-boats and Enrique Granados and his wife Amparo both drowned.
We suggested this idea for March 23 and 24, because that was the anniversary of the deaths of Mr. and Ms. Granados. We offered them a CD of a concert that my husband had recorded at Radio-Canada, in 1985, featuring a work entitled Escenas Romanticas, a marvelous suite by Granados. We received an answer, and I have the emails in front of me.
[English]
As strange as it might sound, there are some rights issues to us playing a 1980 recording from Radio-Canada.
[Translation]
They definitely did not concern the performer's rights because, at the time, all contracts were for what were called "phonograms" in which Radio-Canada reserved the rights for life. Since Granados's music is more than 50 years old, there is no more copyright. So what are the restrictions? I do not know whether there are any legal aspects or programming issues that would prevent the CBC from broadcasting. This is not a piracy issue. We were given a cassette after the live concert at Radio-Canada. When the technology permitted, we transferred it to a CD to preserve its quality.
Why would the CBC refuse to broadcast something that was recorded at Radio-Canada the same year, 1985, as Granados's work, which coincided with March 24? That is a question I have.
Mr. Hutton: I cannot answer your question. All I can say is that today rights issues are a day-by-day matter.
Senator Champagne: Radio-Canada and the CBC are twin sisters.
Mr. Hutton: I cannot answer because, to my knowledge, rights are a very complicated field. There are various rights. A single piece may entail several rights. Where applicable, we can say that Radio-Canada has a broadcasting right. There are rights pertaining to the composer.
Senator Champagne: The composer died around 1914, more than 50 years ago.
Mr. Hutton: I cannot answer you. I know the issue is complicated. The CRTC is not involved in that aspect of broadcasting.
Senator Champagne: Then what are the restrictions between those twin sisters? We are not talking about language when we talk about instrumental music.
The pianist was a francophone. However, he was one of five pianists that Harry Summers selected to play his entire work, and a disc was produced in collaboration with Radio-Canada and the CBC. Everything was working well at that point. Then, suddenly, we cannot use it because there are rights issues. It is quite odd.
Mr. Hutton: I will answer that there is no CRTC rule preventing that.
Senator Champagne: But it should permit it.
Mr. Hutton: At the last renewal, we encouraged the sharing of various programs, various features between the two, between the CBC and Radio-Canada. We encouraged that, and we do not prevent it.
Senator Champagne: Thank you very much. I will send everything to my friends at the Tempo program, Michael Morreale, the production assistant, who responded to us. What are the rights?
As I had received this, we did it for March 24, the anniversary of the death of Granados, and I knew that I would be seeing you today; I kept the notes.
Senator Tardif: The Commissioner of Official Languages published a study in 2009; I believe the title was Shadows over the Canadian Television Landscape: The Place of French on the Air and Production in a Minority Context. That study contained a number of recommendations concerning the CRTC.
Recommendation 2 was as follows:
(a) develop a specific policy which will: clarify the concept of regional reflection; distinguish between the production of regional programs in the majority official language and the production of regional programs in the minority official language;
(b) encourage all Canadian broadcasting services to make commitments regarding the development and acquisition of French-language programs produced outside Quebec and English-language programs produced in Quebec, including a certain percentage produced outside of Montréal.
Recommendation 3 was that the CRTC:
. . .define the minimum commitments to be made by major media conglomerates. . .in order to reflect the reality of official language minority communities and meet their needs.
Can you tell us whether those recommendations have been implemented?
Mr. Hutton: The recommendations have definitely been considered. We have invited the Commissioner of Official Languages to appear before our various bodies on policy and renewal for the major conglomerates referred to in those recommendations. We have not developed a policy on that distinction, as suggested. However, with the major conglomerates, we have evaluated the issues of regional production and regional reflection and the various licensing conditions, asking them to produce programs outside the major centres and to reflect the official language minority communities.
So we have set expectations and licensing conditions for the various conglomerates in order to better serve the francophone communities outside Quebec and the anglophone community in Quebec.
Senator Tardif: Why do you proceed on a case-by-case basis rather than establish a policy defining the terms as such, the necessary minimum commitments, to clarify the concept of reflecting the regions?
Mr. Hutton: We have implemented it by setting expectations and specific conditions for the major conglomerates. The major conglomerates are now businesses serving not only a region, but also the entire country. The regulations that we are putting in place, particularly in television, are moving more away from local considerations and increasingly toward these conglomerates. So we have set expectations in this area at a higher level, the national level, for these conglomerates. This reflects a change in the regulations that we are imposing in the television industry.
Senator Tardif: What follow-up mechanism are you putting in place to ensure that these major conglomerates comply with their undertakings when they are granted a licence?
Mr. Hutton: Every year, we ask the major conglomerates to report to the CRTC on all their conditions, more particularly on local production issues, but also on the way they interact with, for example, independent producers outside the major centres and independent producers that reflect the communities.
Senator Tardif: If I understand correctly, you require a report from them?
Mr. Hutton: Yes.
Senator Tardif: And if the report shows that there is a deficiency, what happens?
Mr. Hutton: At the CRTC, we issue licences, we set expectations and licensing conditions. Every year, or at certain specific periods, we determine whether businesses are meeting those expectations or licensing conditions. Every year, we also respond to complaints. If people feel that the businesses are not meeting the expectations or licensing conditions very well, we can call on the businesses and make them accountable.
However, when we are in the midst of a licensing period, although we can ask them to take corrective action, it is mainly at the next renewal that we have the opportunity to make them accountable. If we conclude that there has been a deficiency, we then issue shorter-term licences or stricter conditions. As an organization, we do not have the option of taking immediate action.
Senator Tardif: Have you experienced a situation in which you have set stricter conditions for some of those large conglomerates on this issue of reflecting the regions in productions?
Mr. Hutton: If we are talking about the major conglomerates, I believe we previously set conditions and expectations at the time of the last licensing renewals. The businesses appear to have met them, but, following the hearings, the positions that were put forward called for the conditions to be refined to a certain degree. So we amended them, but we did not find them at fault.
Senator Tardif: Can you identify some of those major conglomerates for us? I believe it is important to know who we are talking about when discussing those major conglomerates, which reach 70 per cent of the audience.
Mr. Hutton: In English Canada, it is mainly CTVglobemedia. There is also Shaw Media, which owns the stations of the former CanWest group, as well as Corus Entertainment. However, we treat Corus and Shaw differently as a result of a degree of synchronization and at the request of the business. Those are three large anglophone groups, together with Rogers Media.
In French Canada, the two major groups are Groupe TVA and Groupe Astral. In those two cases, we have just completed the public process and the commission is in the process of reaching a decision concerning them.
Senator Robichaud: When you issue licences, you said you had expectations. You also mentioned the issue of reflection, of what Radio-Canada must do under the Official Languages Act. How do you set those expectations or determine the way the regions should be reflected?
You mentioned a discussion group. What does that include? Are these people who belong to minority community associations?
Mr. Hutton: I believe there are two parts to your question. The discussion groups are a tool that we use to address our obligations under the Official Languages Act. I am going to ask Ms. Lehoux to explain to you something of the process involved because she is a member of those groups.
However, to answer your question specifically, expectations and licensing conditions are set at the end of the process. That is the commission's decision. Before that, there is a public process that involves written submissions from the public and a hearing where we consider opinions. Then the various businesses have a right of rebuttal and the commission deliberates on what they have to say. If we go back even further in time, all that is addressed in a public notice stating the process that is to be followed.
Where the discussion groups are particularly important is before the entire formal process begins. That is more informal. The idea is to share the commission's upcoming plans and to discuss the needs of the various communities. This is where the discussion groups fit into our process. I am going to ask Ms. Lehoux to supplement that.
Véronique Lehoux, Legal Counsel, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission: The discussion groups were created in 2007, and there are about two meetings a year. There are five coordinators who assist the national coordinator at the CRTC, and they represent each of the sectors of the CRTC: distribution, television, radio, on the English and French side, and legal affairs. That is at the CRTC.
There are a lot of participants from the official language minority communities in that discussion group. There is the FCFA, the FCCF, the Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise, the Société franco-manitobaine and several others. If you wish, I will be pleased to send you a list.
Senator Robichaud: No, that is fine, provided there are groups across Canada.
Ms. Lehoux: That is correct. For the CRTC, the objective of this discussion group is really to be aware of the issues, needs and concerns of the communities. For the communities, this is really a forum where we can speak with them about the best way for them to take part in our process. One should never lose sight of the fact that we are an administrative tribunal with quasi-judicial functions. This is our way of telling them, "Look, such and such a process is coming up, and it would be a good forum for you to take part in, to submit a brief and to ask to appear. The commission will be able to hear you and consider your remarks."
As an administrative tribunal, we cannot consider submissions that have not been made as part of our public processes. That is why we created this group, which discusses issues and is very effective. I do not know whether you have previously heard about the group, but we are proud of it. It is informal, but there is a good exchange of information, information that is as useful for the CRTC as it is for the communities.
Senator Robichaud: Are these discussion groups also involved in the evaluation that follows the issuing of the licence and that states the expectations that must be met?
Ms. Lehoux: I would not use the word "evaluation". When the commission has rendered its decision, we can discuss it, but the commission will have rendered its decision at that point. We will discuss it in terms of content to determine what the commission's findings are and what that means. Sometimes it is not always easy to get a clear understanding of what we do. The group members can share with us some of their reservations about the commission's decisions. However, this is really a group that is not part of the commission's process. It stands outside the commission.
Senator Robichaud: I understand, but an evaluation is conducted following the decision to determine whether the people concerned are meeting the conditions. Are the discussion groups involved at that point?
Mr. Hutton: The commission evaluates its various policies over a seven-year cycle. We conduct informal discussions with the communities before starting the process. We issue a notice and hold a hearing concerning a future policy.
In response to those policies, we can nevertheless speak with the groups once the decision has been made. The policies are implemented at additional hearings concerning renewal for the various corporations. That is another opportunity for the communities to intervene and to make adjustments. This cycle is repeated every year. If we go back to the start of the cycle at the end of the following seven years, what does the commission do? It evaluates the last policy in which the communities were involved. This takes place over a long period of time, but that is how we proceed.
Senator Robichaud: Thank you, Madam Chair.
[English]
Senator Buth: I have questions about the analog transmitters. I am not sure I understand the issue completely.
I am assuming that the analog transmitters are used in smaller communities or more isolated communities. Is that a correct assumption?
Mr. Hutton: Basically, until a few years ago, all transmission — we are talking television transmission here — was analog. We have mandated the industry to switch in certain markets, primarily the larger markets, from analog to digital. It was sort of a forced move on that front. That was made necessary to respect issues of spectrum policy and international affairs with the U.S. The spectrum policies changed. Dedication of some of that spectrum that used to be reserved for television has been farmed over for other purposes, such as smartphones, emergency services, et cetera. There was a public policy need for that switch to occur, so we instituted that switch, liberating the spectrum in most of the large markets to be able to be used for something else.
We have asked, pushed, coerced, some would say, the broadcasters to switch in major markets in the provincial capitals, in markets where there is more than one broadcaster, so Canadians would be one minute on digital and the other on analog. As a result, primarily larger cities definitely all converted, and less so in the more rural areas. The 22 transmitters we identified in the opening remarks are all in relatively larger markets. They are in what we have come to call mandatory markets, markets that were required to switch from analog to digital.
Senator Buth: Are there any issues in terms of viewers accessing TV stations if the switch were made to digital in some of the smaller markets?
Mr. Hutton: When a broadcaster switches from analog to digital, naturally there is a process to follow to advise and make everyone aware. Essentially, consumers in those areas, if they are subscribers to cable or satellite, there is no impact. It is really if they receive the signal off-air. If you receive the signal off-air, you are required to have a digital tuner. If you have a flat-screen TV, you have a digital tuner and you are fine; you probably do not have to do anything else. If you have a more traditional television set without a digital tuner, you are required to purchase a small converter box that you would insert between your antenna and your television set, which will convert the signal back to analog so that your television can capture it.
Senator Buth: There are some discriminatory issues in terms of whether or not you have modern equipment versus old equipment, but if you are using modern television equipment, then there should be no issue. Is that correct?
Mr. Hutton: There should relatively be no issue. We are talking physics and radio waves. Analog bounces off a mountain, and digital bounces off differently. There are changes in the physical reception, and there can also be changes in the strength of the signal that is emitted by the broadcaster. There can be instances where you would lose service. The commission has been very concerned about that, so we have certainly made the public aware of when and where that would occur, and we have provided other options that would allow Canadians who would be losing their signals to gain access to a free satellite service that replaces the signals they have lost.
Senator Buth: Then why is CBC not moving towards digital in those 22 markets?
Mr. Hutton: I think they are coming up, so I will let them provide their own views. I will say generally, for all broadcasters, they have converted primarily in the mandatory markets and in some cases they have chosen to shut transmitters down. It is a business case issue. With the number of subscribers to satellite and cable, the remaining over- the-air market is rather small. There is a business case for them to do it in a large city, because 5 per cent of Toronto is still a lot of people. However, the issue is that with 5 per cent of a 50,000 population town, it gets hard to justify the $200,000 to $1 million it takes to upgrade a transmitter.
[Translation]
Senator De Bané: Mr. Hutton, if we break down Radio-Canada news into four groups, there is news about Quebec, international news, news about Canada and news about the Canadian provinces outside Quebec. Do you have an approximate idea of the percentage of time allocated to each of those four groups?
Mr. Hutton: In the context of a particular program?
Senator De Bané: Over a particular year, because it changes every day.
Mr. Hutton: We have them in certain situations. We have asked some questions not based on the breakdown that you indicated, but we will be asking them before another body that will soon be starting up on local programming.
Senator De Bané: I am talking about the national news broadcast.
Mr. Hutton: We do not have that information for the moment. Based on our practices in recent proceedings before two bodies, we will be asking precisely those questions at the time of the renewal of Radio-Canada's licence.
Senator De Bané: At the hearings, I will have the honour to submit a study based on news broadcasts 365 days a year as well as a scientific sampling concerning this subject including Quebec news, international news, Canadian news and news concerning all the Canadian provinces.
My second question is this: do you have an idea of the number of French-mother-tongue francophones or francophone speakers — there are millions of Canadian anglophones who understand French or even speak it; there are new Canadians from Europe, Asia and Africa who speak French as well — who tune in to CBC Newsworld to see what is going on in Canada?
Mr. Hutton: We do not monitor the number of francophones who tune in to CBC Newsworld.
Senator De Bané: Believe me, there are a lot of them, in Quebec and elsewhere. When they want to know what is going on in Canada, they tune in to CBC Newsworld. Do you believe that anyone at the CRTC is aware of Marie- Linda Lord's study on the differences between The National in Canada and Le Téléjournal in Quebec?
Mr. Hutton: I remember that, when the report was published, it was circulated internally by one of our commissioners who, like you, shares the same opinions and fears concerning the availability of Canadian news at Radio-Canada, and even regional news at Radio-Canada reflecting the various provinces.
We were made aware of the study and, as I indicated earlier, in connection with licence renewal, and you have already expressed your intention to take part in it, and I thank you for that. I invite you to do so. This is a subject that we will be evaluating at the hearings.
Senator De Bané: With your permission, Madam Chair, like Senator Champagne, I too would like to tell Mr. Hutton about an incident.
A popular radio host I like to listen to on Radio-Canada resorts to an English expression when he is unable to say what he means. And then he says, "as they say in Chinese." He may say it once, twice, three times, four times in the same program. I got fed up at one point and wrote to the senior representative of CBC/Radio-Canada in Parliament to tell him that was not right and that he had an obligation under the act to reflect common values. We have two languages under the supreme law of the country, under the Constitution. I must have written several times, and I never got a reply.
At one point, the official responsible for parliamentary relations telephoned me and said: "Senator, the director of Radio-Canada's French radio would like to speak to you over the telephone." I said: "No." I had sent enough emails; I wanted a written answer. I ultimately got one and I will be submitting it at the hearing at the appropriate time. He told me that this was a man of extraordinary talent, but he was obviously not perfect. The expression I had complained of in so many letters was an "unconscious language tic". That is why he had used the expression for so many years. Fine. It is an unconscious language tic. What do I do about it? I am not a psychologist; I am a lawyer.
I went to see a PhD in psychology at the University of Ottawa, who had more than 20 years of clinical experience. She watched the program for a few weeks and gave me quite an opinion. It was not what is called an "unconscious language tic". This is a guy who coordinates a lot of correspondents and other people on his program. I sent it to Radio-Canada. It suddenly stopped. It was over, but I had to go and see a psychologist in order to show senior management that it had had the wool pulled over its eyes for years and that it had docilely accepted what it had been told.
I subsequently received a letter telling me to stop writing to the parliamentary correspondent in Ottawa and that he would stop answering me. I did not believe him. I wrote to him, and he never answered me. Never. I dared to tell them that it was unacceptable to laugh at a language that is one of our two official languages.
Senator Champagne told you about an incident that had surprised her, and I am telling you about one that shocked me, both the action itself and the reaction by management, who told me that no one would ever reply to me and that I should write to Radio-Canada's audience service. And to prove to me that it was a unanimous view, it was sent to the president, the director, to everyone. That is it. All done. The comedy is over.
That is how they reacted because I had told them there was a limit to contempt; a basic service of Radio-Canada acted arrogantly because a parliamentarian had gone to see a doctor of psychology, who had explained the essential issue to them, that an "unconscious language tic" was not that, not at all; it was something else. They were caught with their pants down and they told me to stop writing and that they never wanted to see me. That is what happened, Madam Chair.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Further to the questions I asked you earlier about Radio-Canada having to replace its current transmitters with digital transmitters, I would like to know where CBC/Radio-Canada stands in the implementation of its plan for the transition to digital. Will they be giving you an answer soon when you go to meet them?
Mr. Hutton: There were transmitters that had to be converted and for which they gave us some plans. We followed up those plans, and, as a result of some minor construction details, they were virtually all converted on August 31, 2011. Some are a little late; there are a lot of those at CBC/Radio-Canada. As is the case for other broadcasters, there are construction problems like what you hear about, but there was follow-up and all the transmitters that were to be converted in Canada have been.
As for the 22 transmitters to come, our intention was to discuss them at the time of the licence renewal and to seek some accountability on their conversion project at the time of the hearing. For the moment, we have no additional information on those 22 regional transmitters.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I have another question in another area. Recent studies that you have had done with CEFRIO have shown that web TV is becoming increasingly popular. Is there a way to measure the popularity of web TV? If so, how? If not, why not?
Mr. Hutton: There are various types of measures. So it is possible. Through the transmitter, if, for example, Radio- Canada uses Tou.tv, they can measure audiences quite accurately. They cannot say whether there are four persons in the house watching, but they know that at least one person is watching. There is a way to determine ratings via web TV.
There is also a new way through audiometry. When BBM did the ratings, they filled a little notebook, stating the time and channel watched. Now they use little electronic gadgets, PPMs. This is an American technology, People Meter; you can carry it on you and it recognizes a coding embedded in the programming you are watching on your television set or computer; in most cases, it recognizes the signal. There is a way to recognize it, but, in this case, there will be no distinction between watching a program on television or a computer. These are two general ways of doing this.
Senator Tardif: Mr. Hutton, in your answer to the questions I asked, you said that some of these major broadcasting conglomerates had asked that the rules be relaxed. I would like to go back to that point.
Before the CRTC, Quebecor representatives requested that the rules imposed on TVA be relaxed, particularly with regard to Canadian content percentages. They also asked that the licensing condition concerning the reinvestment of profits from distribution outside Quebec be eliminated. If I understand correctly, when TVA received its licence in 1990, they undertook to reinvest 43 per cent of profits made outside Quebec in programming for minority francophones. Now they are asking for that condition to be relaxed and eliminated. How do you view that situation?
Mr. Hutton: That is a file that is open before us. We conducted hearings last December, and the commission is deliberating on the matter. So I must refrain from giving an opinion at this time.
To be specific about the issue, the commission assigned TVA mandatory distribution status in its last renewal, which you cited. The effect is essentially to make the TVA service available on the basic service free of charge by either cable or satellite. The primary objective was to make a second option available for francophones outside Quebec or outside the area traditionally served by TVA. In the context of this permission or mandatory distribution, conditions were put in place: a condition that TVA consult with minority groups, a reinvestment licensing condition and a condition or expectation concerning a minimum number of hours of regional production. TVA came back and asked that the condition regarding reinvestment of revenue attributable outside the country be relaxed. We are therefore considering the matter.
The position adopted by the business is that they were unable to monetize the audience outside Quebec through their sponsors. They said that revenue was zero. However, since 43 per cent of zero is zero, the condition is therefore unnecessary. That is what TVA advanced.
Senator Tardif: What was the required minimum when you stated the number of hours of production?
Mr. Hutton: I read it last week because we deliberated, but the figure escapes me for the moment.
Senator Tardif: Could you forward that information to the committee?
Mr. Hutton: We can send it to you.
Senator Tardif: My next question concerns another recommendation by the Commissioner of Official Languages regarding the importance of establishing incentives to encourage the broadcast of Canadian programs and filming in French for young people. What weight did you attach to that recommendation? Has anything been set up?
Mr. Hutton: We used to have a specific priority programming incentive. We are talking about eight hours of priority programming a week during prime time. That was our main incentive.
Youth programming was not included in that priority programming. We changed our way of doing things at the time of the renewal hearings for the major conglomerates. We identified national interest programming. As a result of a reformulation of national interest programming, it is no longer a number of hours, but rather an investment amount. Approximately 5 per cent of revenue must be reinvested in national interest programming. Whether it is dramatic content for youth or documentaries concerning youth, these matters are now included in national interest programming.
Senator Tardif: You are not unaware that youth is the major key in ensuring the vitality of our minority francophone communities.
Senator Mockler: My question is further to that of Senator De Bané. Mr. Hutton, you said that, in your management office, you had a commissioner who had raised Ms. Lord's study?
Mr. Hutton: Indeed.
Senator Mockler: As a result of that commissioner's attention to the matter, has the CRTC taken that study seriously? Has it checked what was stated?
Mr. Hutton: Our intention was to check it during the renewal process. However, it was to take place in June and it has been postponed. We intended to ask questions on reflection as a whole. We identified the subject as part of the upcoming hearing. It is not good that we have been unable to verify the accuracy of all the figures all those years. We are well aware of the situation. We have heard those comments from various sources, including the working groups, and questions from consumers. Those matters also came out of our online consultations. We are well aware of the subject, and these points will be considered and evaluated at the hearing.
Senator Mockler: Can you assure the committee today that you will prepare a follow-up report and submit it to the committee chair?
Mr. Hutton: You are talking about the study?
Senator Mockler: I am talking about the study raised by Ms. Lord.
Mr. Hutton: We will try to get a formal copy and we will be able to submit it. I can assure you that there will be follow up on the subject as a whole. That is set out in our public notice. We firmly intend to evaluate the performance of the business or corporation in relation to its reflection obligations because I believe we are talking about a reflection obligation here.
Senator Mockler: Did I actually hear that you do not have an official copy?
Mr. Hutton: We have a copy. However, before making photocopies, there may be a rights issue, but we would like to find a way to send you a copy.
Senator De Bané: Mr. Hutton, when I read the Broadcasting Act, what is explained there is precisely what we would need. The national level, the regional level and common values must be reflected. I watch the news, and I know you must watch it too. I understand your duty of reserve. However, a train recently derailed in southern Ontario. It was a very serious accident. That incident made the first news broadcast on the English network, but not on the French network.
And then there was the youth in Newfoundland who died because they waited three or four days to send a helicopter to try and save him. That incident made the first news broadcast on the entire English network, but not on the French network.
In other words, although the act appears to be full of wisdom, these are two completely different worlds and these news broadcasts appear to come from two different countries, even from the standpoint of terminology. As you know, choosing broadcasting terms is a bit like choosing terrain in a military operation.
Pierre Nadeau, a great reporter — one of the greatest in the world — was on the program Tout le monde en parle yesterday. The following question was put to him: "Mr. Nadeau, among the major personalities you have interviewed in Quebec and Canada. . . ." The wording always comes back to "in Quebec and Canada." I have previously heard "the military industry in Quebec and Canada". In the United States, is it possible to say, "the industry in Texas and the United States," or "the industry in Brittany and France"?
Let us not be naive. I hope the CRTC takes note of all our observations. These are things that everyone hears, that everyone interprets. I will have more to say when I make my presentation. I understand your duty of reserve, but I am asking you to take action.
The Chair: I would have liked to ask you for some information, which you could perhaps send us in writing: do you have any recommendations to make to the committee regarding its study on the use of the Internet and social media? If you have any recommendations to make to us, and I am sure you have a few, could you send them to the committee?
Mr. Hutton: Yes, we will do that.
The Chair: Thank you very much. We have finished with our first group of witnesses. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for coming and appearing before the committee.
Mr. Hutton: Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to all the senators.
The Chair: Thank you once again. Honourable senators, we will suspend for a few minutes and resume with the second group of witnesses.
Honourable senators, we will now continue our meeting. Now we welcome the representatives of CBC/Radio- Canada: Patricia Pleszczynska, General Manager and Program Director, Regional Services; and Diane Laflamme, Chief of Planning, Regional Services, French Services.
Welcome, ladies. I invite Ms. Pleszczynska to take the floor, and the senators will follow with questions.
Patricia Pleszczynska, General Manager and Program Director, Regional Services, CBC/Radio-Canada: Good evening, senators. I am in charge of all regional TV, radio and web services and programming offered to French- speaking Canadians from coast to coast. My mandate is also to ensure that our network programming reflects community life as it is experienced in all parts of the country. I am joined today by Diane Laflamme, Planning Manager for Radio-Canada Regional Services.
I would like to start by giving you an overview of the services we provide to official language minority communities, particularly French-speaking ones, since it accounts for the bulk of my responsibilities.
[English]
I will also give you some highlights on how CBC serves the English-speaking minority in Quebec.
[Translation]
On multiple occasions over the past 75 years, CBC/Radio-Canada has demonstrated its commitment to better serve regional communities, especially minority-language ones. This commitment was renewed last year when we tabled our 2015: Everyone, Every Way Strategy. It is a five-year plan in which we identify three priorities: provide distinctive programming, strengthen our regional presence, and expand our digital offering. Today, Radio-Canada's regional services comprise a total of 12 multi-platform TV, radio and web production centres, 7 of which serve French-speaking minority communities. Added to this are 4 radio stations and 18 news bureaux dedicated to minority-language populations.
On television, our production centres in minority-language communities produce an average of 6 to 11 hours of local programming each week. The bulk of this programming is in news and current affairs, but we have also managed to expand and diversify regional production into other genres, including independent production.
Our radio services also have strong regional roots. On Première Chaîne, 100 per cent of prime-time hours — specifically, the morning and drive-home periods — are regional productions.
This strong regional presence also allows us to better reflect these communities' cultural, democratic and economic life on our national network. On Première Chaîne radio, many of our network programs produce remote broadcasts outside Quebec. Among the most recent examples, the national arts show Bouillant de culture was in Vancouver on March 10 to mark the launch of the Prix des lecteurs de Radio-Canada, which showcases literary works by French- Canadian authors outside Quebec. And this year, the finals for the Prix des lecteurs will be broadcast in prime time on April 17 during the Pénélope McQuade show.
In its network schedule, Radio-Canada television carries a daily program produced out of Ottawa and whose specific mandate is to report on life in French-speaking communities across Canada. Aired on weekdays, C'est ça la vie is in its fifth season.
Naturally, Radio-Canada also plays a key role in keeping the country's French-speaking population informed. Need I remind you that Radio-Canada is the only news media organization with a presence in all regions across the country, on TV, radio, web and mobile platforms.
Radio-Canada's news network, RDI, relies on Radio-Canada's seasoned team of journalists to provide real-time coverage of national and world affairs. No other continuous news network in the country can match RDI's ability to report in French on the events that matter to francophone minority communities.
In addition to this ongoing coverage, RDI airs Le National, a half-hour weeknight newscast that rounds up the top stories from all of the major regions across Canada. It draws heavily on the reports aired seven days a week on the regional Téléjournal newscasts.
Over and above strategy 2015, which reiterates our regional commitment — including to minority-language communities — another tool has allowed us to enhance our regional presence: the Local Programming Improvement Fund, or LPIF, set up by the CRTC.
At Radio-Canada, we have leveraged the LPIF to begin offering regional news in French seven days a week. Thanks to the fund, viewers in British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba now have access to local and regional news on Saturdays and Sundays.
This seven-day-a-week presence is reflected in our ability to provide regional and national coverage of key stories such as the Manitoba floods last year or the recent Air Canada disruptions.
Since last summer, summer arts magazines have been specifically designed by each of the country's 12 regional stations. In Ottawa, the Changer d'air continued into the regular season on Saturdays at 6:30 p.m. All of these magazines will be back on air and hitting the festival circuit in summer 2012.
The LPIF has also enabled us to develop regional programs that contribute to conveying the realities of French- speaking communities on our network. For example, for the past three years, we have produced 34 episodes of the series Tout le monde en parlait, including 19 by our minority-language stations. These programs deal with topics like the Batoche bell, the battle for the French-language school in Penetanguishene, or the Franco-Ontarian band CANO. These local stories resonated with other francophones across the country, since these broadcasts drew record ratings for regional productions.
The original network broadcast, not including repeats, reached an average audience of 840,000 viewers these past two summers. It was a resounding success that we hope to repeat. And it will be among the LPIF success stories that we will be presenting to the CRTC at its hearings on the fund, starting April 16.
[English]
At this point I would like to share with you some highlights on CBC in Quebec. CBC is very proud to serve English- speaking Quebecers over the last two years. In line with the 2015 strategy, CBC has enhanced its regional presence and will continue to do so throughout 2012.
Currently, CBC produces 12 hours of daily and 7 hours of weekly radio programming. Of these, 5 hours are produced daily in Quebec City to serve the communities outside of Greater Montreal. CBC also produces 100 minutes of daily television news covering the essential stories for English-speaking Quebecers.
In May, CBC is launching TV news on Saturday and Sunday evenings, as well as extending weekend radio news coverage. In December, 2011 CBC launched a new regional web page that is more interactive and regionally reflective. Later this year, CBC is launching a separate web page for programs generated out of Quebec City for the off-island English-speaking community.
Recently, CBC created a new position, a roaming reporter, who has already visited different English-speaking communities, including Baie-Comeau and Fermont, and reported on these communities. CBC also reflects French realities back to English Canada through national radio performance programming, such as Jim Corcoran's A Propos and current affairs programs, such as Bernard St-Laurent's C'est la vie.
CBC has close partnerships with several organizations tying us to Quebec's English-speaking communities, including the Quebec community groups network Townshippers' Association, Quebec Writers' Federation and the Quebec English School Boards Association.
As you can see, CBC is committed to fulfilling its mandates and serving the nearly 1 million anglophones in Quebec with local news, current affairs and arts programming on all platforms: TV, radio and the web.
[Translation]
Before taking your questions, a final word to tell you about how Radio-Canada uses web, mobility and social networking platforms. On radio-canada.ca, visitors have access to a wide selection of local and regional news content, and if they wish, they can customize the site's home page so that it gives greater prominence to news from their region, wherever they are in Canada. Incidentally, the regional news component is one of the sections that generate the most site traffic. What is more, all regional content, including the regional Téléjournal newscasts, is available for viewing on demand.
We now offer a radio de Radio-Canada mobile app that allows users to choose the Première Chaîne regional signal of their choice on their iPhone or tablet computer. The main challenge facing Canadians, particularly French-speaking Canadians, is to ensure a strong presence on the digital landscape by creating spaces able to showcase original French- language content that is rich, varied and relevant. That is precisely the approach adopted by Radio-Canada in launching Tou.tv, North America's leading French-language web TV service. Conceived, initiated and operated by Radio-Canada, Tou.tv is a partnership among a number of French-language producers and broadcasters in Canada and around the world.
I am very proud to say that Tou.tv — whose success continues to grow — also offers a substantial selection of regional productions, making them accessible to an even wider audience.
As you can see, Radio-Canada takes its role and obligations toward French-language minority communities very seriously. By developing a strategy that leverages the combined strength of TV, radio, web and mobility platforms, and by making regional presence a priority in its strategic plan.
Radio-Canada provides French-speaking Canadians across the country with a space where they can come together and see themselves reflected. That is why I believe that, thanks to our regional strategy, francophones from all regions now have a stronger voice on our national networks.
I am now ready to take your questions.
Senator Champagne: Good evening, ladies. On the CBC/Radio-Canada website, there is a table 1 entitled "Journalistic Standards and Practices with Respect to Language." You tell us you use a current and accessible language of high quality.
From a journalistic standpoint, I more or less agree, and even constantly agree, with your statement.
However, the situation is different with regard to television series — the serials, as we used to call them — and I admit that some news situations sometimes arise that even make me cross. We have obviously never managed to replace the good old watchdogs. I am thinking of the venerable Miville Couture, Jean-Marie Laurence and Henri Bergeron. They should come back from the grave, often.
I am not just talking about mispronunciations of somewhat foreign-sounding words or names. I am simply talking about Jean-Louis Audet, to whom I owe everything, who was my teacher for many years and who called the problem "dangerous liaisons".
We are told about a particular artist who has had a career for "neuf z-années," or about four Canadian athletes, "quatre z-athlètes canadiens," who have the misfortune not to be Quebecers and who have dared win a medal. Last summer, I was watching the program Les Chefs on Radio-Canada, where I heard the hostess ask the other four competitors, the "quatre z-autres concurrents," to withdraw during the duel, the decisive moment.
And, even more recently, a young woman offered cultural criticism of the Cirque du Soleil's last show by telling us about the five artists, "les cinq z-artistes," who had played the Jackson Five. Senator De Bané might say this is Chinese; I think it is awful to hear on Radio-Canada's airwaves. Can you do something about that? Are you trying to do something?
Ms. Pleszczynska: Thank you for your comments. It is obviously a priority for us to use proper French and to maintain a level of quality of French. Every year that priority is reflected by standards that are established and that each of our teams must meet, standards that we have encouraged through the creation of a group of employees across the country who ensure that the quality of the language is maintained, or that the quality of their colleagues' language is improved.
Senator Champagne: We are not even thinking about incorrect agreements with past participles. We overlook that; we know that happens frequently, but the Cirque du Soleil show in which "les cinq z-artistes" played the Jackson Five was quite recent. I thought it was unbearable; it was a terrible thing that should not be heard on Radio-Canada's airwaves.
Ms. Pleszczynska: I understand your comment.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: And when people say "si j'aurais."
Senator Robichaud: "The `si's' do not like the `-rais'." That is what we learned at school.
Senator Champagne: I would like to go back to another subject. Can you tell me what lack of cooperation there is between the two sisters, Radio-Canada and the CBC? For example, I heard that the CBC cannot play, on its English- language network, a recording of a concert performed on Radio-Canada. Can you answer that question?
Ms. Pleszczynska: I am unaware of the specific context in which that impossibility came about. I can tell you, however, that the recordings of concerts performed on CBC and Radio-Canada are indeed shared regularly on CBC Radio 2.
Senator Champagne: I will give you a copy of the reply from the associate producer of Tempo at CBC2.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Welcome, ladies. I was very pleased to hear your brief.
The licences of CBC/Radio-Canada will be up for renewal this year. Last February, the CRTC issued a notice stating that the renewal hearings for CBC/Radio-Canada's licences were postponed until further notice. The CRTC's public hearings will be an opportunity to discuss local and regional programming issues and the changing role of the public broadcaster.
I would like to know the principal changes that are being proposed by CBC/Radio-Canada in the context of the renewal of its licences.
Ms. Pleszczynska: I cannot answer you at this stage, before our licence renewal application is submitted to the CRTC, when we are summoned.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Do you think you will take public comments into account when you appear or that you will disregard them?
Ms. Pleszczynska: We have a consultation process that has been in place for a number of years now, in which we hear from citizens across the country and group them together. We also have an annual meeting with representatives, citizens from every province of the country, who speak to us about topics of interest in their region. The regions' panel meets regularly.
Through francophone associations, we also have regular meetings where we hear their questions and issues and tell them about our programming and actions with the communities, whether it be communities representing cultural, musical or other associations.
Each of our directorates has also held, and continues to hold, regular meetings with the community to hear about the issues, questions and needs of those communities and to be aware of what is going on in each of our regions so that we can respond to that with the programming we put forward on radio, television and the Internet.
Yes, we are listening to our audience, citizens and television viewers so that we can respond to their needs through the programs we develop.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Why did you ask for the public hearings to be postponed?
Ms. Pleszczynska: I cannot answer that question officially. Furthermore, we are in the midst of the renewal process; we will be appearing before the CRTC in two weeks for hearings on the renewal of the Local Programming Improvement Fund, which is a major issue for CBC/Radio-Canada as it pertains to its ability to continue to produce and develop regional programming.
It is important for us to have this opportunity to make a submission on this issue to the CRTC and to get an answer from the CRTC concerning the renewal of this fund, which is fundamentally important for the continuation of our activities in the regions.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Further to questions that I previously put to the CRTC representatives concerning the advantages of transitioning to digital for CBC/Radio-Canada's regional stations, what progress have you made in implementing your digital plan?
Ms. Pleszczynska: The facilities are coming along, and, to my knowledge, we are meeting requirements and our commitments to the CRTC.
Senator De Bané: Earlier you mentioned the number of journalists you have across Canada. Would you be so kind as to send our chair the geographic distribution of all the journalists in the two networks, by province and by municipality, in each of the provinces? Can you do that?
Ms. Pleszczynska: Yes, that is possible.
Senator De Bané: If you would be so kind as to forward them to our chair, I have the figures for 2010, but I would obviously prefer to have the most recent figures for each province, in each of the cities, the number you have, and also those of the CBC.
Second, with your permission, I would like to ask some questions that should undoubtedly be directed to the national corporation, but that you may perhaps be comfortable answering. The first is this: who do you think are your radio and television audiences? Please explain your answer together with these two subquestions: do you believe your main audience is in Quebec? If that is the case, tell us what that means, both for your Quebec audience and for your audience outside Quebec. That is my first question.
Ms. Pleszczynska: If I understand correctly, you are asking me that question with regard to national programs, are you not?
Senator De Bané: Yes.
Ms. Pleszczynska: All right. If we look at the distribution of the francophone population in Canada, the majority of French-language citizens are definitely located in Quebec; that is an undeniable fact. So it is essential that our national programs serve that Quebec audience. However, that does not prevent audiences outside Quebec from needing and having a right to be reflected on the national airwaves, and that also does not prevent Quebec audiences from having an interest in what goes on outside Quebec. So our national broadcasters have a duty to reflect the Quebec audience, where the majority francophone population is located, and a duty to reflect the francophone audiences across the country, and to reflect the realities of the country and of Quebec to national audiences.
Senator De Bané: Let us suppose that we divide the national newscast into four sections: Quebec news, international news, news for Canada as a whole — that is to say the federal government — and news from the Canadian provinces. Do you have an idea how the news is currently divided up?
Ms. Pleszczynska: I cannot provide that distribution for you.
Senator De Bané: All right. You talk about French speakers. There are several categories of French speakers: those whose mother tongue is French; those who have learned French, and there are millions of English-mother-tongue Canadians who have learned French; and new Canadians, who come from the Americas, the United States, Haiti, Europe, Asia, the Middle East and Africa. Do you have an idea how many French speakers there are outside Quebec?
Ms. Pleszczynska: We have access to those figures.
Senator De Bané: Go ahead.
Ms. Pleszczynska: But the figures we use are those gathered and compiled by Statistics Canada; we have no other information.
Senator De Bané: Those are the ones I am interested in; that is what I have as well.
Ms. Pleszczynska: The distinction that Statistics Canada draws is based on mother tongue, the first official language spoken. There are these definitions; these are not our definitions, but those established based on the statistics.
Senator De Bané: I have official figures too. I am not interested in anecdotal evidence. In your view, how many people are there who understand French, French speakers outside Quebec?
Ms. Pleszczynska: One million.
Senator De Bané: In total?
Ms. Pleszczynska: In total, one million.
Senator De Bané: No, madam. I will submit my figures with their sources. I have an official document from the Library of Parliament of Canada giving me the official figures.
The Chair: I would like to ask a question. Does the one-million figure you mentioned just refer to people whose mother tongue is French?
Ms. Pleszczynska: Yes.
Senator De Bané: There are one million anglophones who have learned French; there are those who come from elsewhere, perhaps from Romania or Algeria, and who speak French. It is not their mother tongue. You are not taking that into account.
Ms. Pleszczynska: We also take into account the first official language spoken. In that case, we are talking about 1.53 million. We do have similar figures.
Senator De Bané: You are not taking into account those who have learned French and whose mother tongue is not French.
Ms. Pleszczynska: We take into account the figures at our disposal.
Senator De Bané: The figures at your disposal reflect mother-tongue speakers, do they not?
Ms. Pleszczynska: Absolutely.
Senator De Bané: And you are not taking into account French speakers whose mother tongue is not French, are you?
Ms. Pleszczynska: We are taking into account all citizens who speak French, without necessarily dividing them into categories.
Senator De Bané: You just gave me a figure, stating that, in your view, there are one million French-mother-tongue speakers. Let us stop playing with words. I am not talking about those whose mother tongue is French, but I am asking you whether you have an idea of the number of French speakers living outside Quebec. That includes those whose mother tongue is French, anglophones who have learned French and immigrants who learned French in their native country.
Ms. Pleszczynska: Then I cannot give you that figure.
Senator De Bané: Good. Thank you for conceding that point. One thing that has struck me is that, for you, since most of the francophone population is in Quebec, you are saying, "Our first duty is to give them Quebec news." Is that in fact what you said?
Ms. Pleszczynska: No.
Senator De Bané: Can you repeat what you said?
Ms. Pleszczynska: Knowing that most of the francophone population is in Quebec, we have a responsibility to serve that audience to the same degree as we must serve the audience in the entire country. That is all I said.
Senator De Bané: All right, but what I am asking you is: what does it mean to serve the Quebec audience? Do you start with Quebec news or do you start with Canada?
Ms. Pleszczynska: The editorial process changes depending on the news, every day, every moment of the day. On all our programs, we have teams in place whose duty is to find the most relevant sequence for the audience, based not just on the origin of the story or the citizens watching or listening to it, but on the relevance or the interest of the editorial decision they make in that regard.
Senator De Bané: You know about that as the regional programming director. On the basis of 365 days a year, what percentage of time does Quebec represent in the national news on the national network?
Ms. Pleszczynska: I could not tell you.
Senator De Bané: Perfect. The international news?
Ms. Pleszczynska: I could not give you a percentage.
Senator De Bané: The news about Canada as a country, that is to say the national news?
Ms. Pleszczynska: I cannot give you a percentage.
Senator De Bané: Do you have an idea of the percentage of news concerning the nine provinces outside Quebec?
Ms. Pleszczynska: Our news programs are not based on percentages, but rather on editorial choices that are made by our editorial teams, our desks and our assignment officers, depending on the news and the importance of the news of the day.
Senator De Bané: A question concerning the English community in Quebec. The committee before which you are appearing today — and I thank both of you for being with us — spent a full week in Quebec meeting with English- speaking Quebecers. We toured around and met a lot of people: university presidents, people who deal with artists, civil society and so on. Do you have an idea of the number of minutes that are allocated on the French network to coverage of our proceedings in a week?
Ms. Pleszczynska: I do not have that detail.
Senator De Bané: I am going to tell you: not one second. Not one second! So in a country where the two solitudes constitute a problem, do you think it is normal for Radio-Canada to totally disregard the English-language community in Quebec? What do you think about that? We spent a week during which we met a host of witnesses from all categories. Not a minute of coverage on Radio-Canada.
Ms. Pleszczynska: I cannot judge the editorial decision that was made that week or what other —
Senator De Bané: I can judge it, and the committee members can judge it.
Why is it that, thanks to the Local Programming Development Fund — not Radio-Canada; the CRTC gives you that money, and you said you were having sessions on that in the coming days — you conclude that, because you give each of the regions, British Columbia, Alberta, Manitoba, Acadia, Ontario, news on what is going on there, we never see them on the national news? Why is that the case?
Ms. Pleszczynska: First I would say that the Local Programming Improvement Fund has made it possible for us to do marvellous things.
Senator De Bané: Very well, and I have heard very good things about that, but they are not on the national news.
The Chair: Can you let Ms. Pleszczynska answer?
Senator De Bané: Yes, but this is because I am talking to her about their absence from the national news and she is telling me that they are doing good things locally. That is definitely true, but Quebecers do not know what is going on in Acadia.
Ms. Pleszczynska: One of the programs that we have been able to broadcast thanks to the Local Programming Improvement Fund is Tout le monde en parlait, of which we have broadcast 34 editions. Those 34 editions were broadcast mainly on the network. Some were broadcast only in the regions, while others were broadcast first in the regions and then rebroadcast nationally, precisely to tell those stories that are important in our French-language minority communities and that deserve to be known across the country. That was the case for the people who were expropriated in Old Hull and for the story of the battle for the French language in Penetanguishene, and the same will be true this summer of the program concerning the group CANO, the program on the Batoche bell, and the program on the disappearance of the Winnipeg Jets and what that involved for the transformation of hockey. These are extraordinary stories, not only because they are deeply rooted in each of the regions, but because they offer a new look at what is going on today and what makes it possible, through a private screening, often with audiences from there, to provide a place where people who have experienced those important moments in the community can gather and add to the content, which we can subsequently broadcast on our newscasts. These programs are seen on the network.
Senator De Bané: Madam, if you want to tell me that what Radio-Canada is currently doing satisfies the population living outside Quebec and raises their profile on the national network, and that Quebecers are aware of what is going on at Radio-Canada, that is an illusion. Earlier I cited an example of the solitude in Quebec where Radio-Canada will say anything except talk about Quebec's English community.
Here is how I am going to tell you that. First, do you think you have an obligation to reflect the country as a whole to your audience outside Quebec or just their region or local community? Second, do you think that your audience outside Quebec is interested in news from Quebec, even the most minor, most local news? If that is not the case, why do you present so much Quebec news to your audience outside Quebec and so little about the rest of Canada? Those are my questions. If you do not want to answer them, do not answer them, but please give me true answers.
Ms. Pleszczynska: Thank you, senator. Francophones outside Quebec are obviously interested in learning and receiving information about their local community, but also on what is going on in the majority community and on what is happening across the country.
Every one of our news broadcasts offers its audience and viewers local, national and international content, which is made available precisely through content-sharing across the country. Our regional audiences have that service and receive content that reflects the country as well as their local community.
Senator De Bané: Ms. Pleszczynska, Program Director, and Ms. Laflamme, Chief of Planning, what you say has nothing to do with reality. I am going to use an English expression to sum up my perception and that of so many people: it is a Quebec view of the world.
The most striking illustration of that came when Céline Galipeau went to Winnipeg for the 50th anniversary of Radio- Canada's establishment in Manitoba. What question did she come up with to put to young francophones who are fighting for their language? She told them: Come on! What is this about learning French and speaking French? Come on, you are in Manitoba.
That is what I heard. It is a Quebec view of the world.
What I experienced with the committee when we visited Quebec, when people wanted to completely disregard the committee because it was interested in the anglophone community, is another example. Or consider what Ms. Galipeau did in Manitoba by insulting them, and what she did in Acadia when she told them that Radio-Canada does not talk about the other provinces — because they obviously complained that the CBC talks more about Acadian society than Radio-Canada does. Ms. Galipeau told them in Moncton: Come on, Quebecers are not interested in you.
That is amusing, because she views matters differently for other communities.
At one point, she was interviewed on Radio-Canada's coverage of what was going on in Haiti. She said, "Well, yes, Haiti is extremely important, and we are looking at it; we are doing features based on the viewpoint of the Haitian community in Montreal."
Look at the situation in Manitoba from the viewpoint of Manitobans from Saint-Boniface. She told them, as part of her question: I am asking you this the way Quebecers ask it, why are you learning French? Do not waste your time with that.
That is what I wanted to tell you, madam.
Senator Tardif: In your presentation today, you repeated several times that you are committed to better serving the regional communities and, in particular, the francophone minority communities. You submitted a five-year strategic plan last year. That plan is divided into three parts: national programming, regional programming and digital programming. For each of those three parts, can you say how CBC/Radio-Canada is integrating the development of the official language minority communities? How will you meet their expectations? Could you also tell us whether they were consulted when the strategic plan was developed?
Ms. Pleszczynska: First, I will tell you about what regional development means for us.
Thanks in large part to the LPIF, the priority for us was to ensure that television service was provided seven days a week. Our communities were experiencing this lack of service across the country. Some communities had no local or regional news on weekends. Our first priority was therefore to ensure that each of our editions of Le Téléjournal was available seven days a week, or, if it was not in the form of a 30-minute newscast, that television news was available for each of our communities across the country, seven days a week.
We also gave priority to providing access to a digital Internet service in each of our communities by changing our website, which you may have noticed, and which is now geolocalised. This means that, wherever you are, you can watch an edition of the newscast or listen to our radio station, either the one where you are or a station in another region that you choose to tune in. If you are in Ottawa, you may choose to watch or listen to programming from Manitoba, Gaspé or Acadia. Each of our sites also provides specific programming from that region and makes it available to viewers, listeners and Internet users.
For us, the emphasis in regional development has been to offer news service seven days a week on all our platforms: radio, television and the Internet. This process is continuing through our five-year plan, as the plan progresses, for the next five years.
In each of our regions, we have also identified programming that can serve the audience there and offer a diversity of content in addition to the information provided on newscasts. That programming includes historical documentaries that are also relevant today, such as Tout le monde en parlait. It also includes an increased presence, during the summer, at all festivals, all cultural gatherings and events across the region. This need or desire is being met through weekly programs that are broadcast not only in the region where those programs are produced, but also in other regions. Most are rebroadcast on RDI for a national audience so that it can see that content on the network.
We have also developed a strategy with our independent producers to ensure that each of our independent production activities is rooted in the region and reflects regional realities. These productions are broadcast during prime time in the regions, but also across the country, on television, on Première Chaîne, at various times or during various periods. For example, I can cite the series Pour un soir seulement, which we are producing in cooperation with ARTV. Footage by artists is produced with an independent producer in Manitoba every winter and broadcast on ARTV and Première Chaîne, along with other series.
These are strategies for broadcasting and expanding our presence in the regions, but also for the growth of, and the investment we are making in, our sites and digital platforms.
Other strategies concern the digital field. I would mention last week's launch of the Explora channel, which is part of our strategy to broadcast on all platforms and to provide content to francophones across the country. Ideally, we want to be available on all channels and to be distributed across the country.
These initiatives are thus part of our 2015 strategies.
Senator Tardif: The Local Programming Improvement Fund was introduced by the CRTC, was it not?
Ms. Pleszczynska: Yes.
Senator Tardif: It is slated for how many years?
Ms. Pleszczynska: It was put in place three years ago with a plan to be reviewed three years later. We are therefore approaching the time for review.
Senator Tardif: What amount did you receive?
Ms. Pleszczynska: I could not tell you the total amount of available funding. I could tell you that it represents 1.5 per cent of the cable companies' profits. That amount changes from one year to the next.
Senator Tardif: If the money were not there, how would that affect your regional and national digital programming, national perhaps less so, but definitely regional?
Ms. Pleszczynska: We are preparing our presentation to the CRTC, which will be made in two weeks, and it will definitely have a major impact.
Senator Tardif: You are relying on that to try to do a better job of reflecting the regions, are you not?
Ms. Pleszczynska: For both the quantity and quality of our news and the diversity of our programming. The improvements to our programming have definitely resulted from and involved funding from the LPIF.
Senator Tardif: You mentioned the place of independent productions and producers. Do you also rely on regional producers?
Ms. Pleszczynska: Absolutely. Independent producers are partners in our regional programming. Earlier I mentioned Les productions Rivard in Manitoba. We also encourage emerging producers. We are working with a new team of independent producers, the Clément brothers, who are being mentored by Les productions Rivard because they are new to the market and are preparing a series for us on the Métis.
We work with producers outside Quebec who have access to a fund for producers outside Quebec and we encourage them to submit projects to us. We have projects from British Columbia, all the western provinces, Ontario, Quebec and Acadia, as well as for independent producers from Quebec. Independent production outside Quebec is definitely an investment and a need for us.
Senator Tardif: You mentioned the entire digital issue and initiatives that you are taking in that area. Do you think that new social media, the Internet, and I also believe you referred to web TV, offer minority francophones more opportunities? Do they have more access? Is it possible to use new media and to reach minority communities more easily?
Ms. Pleszczynska: It is an advantage for members of the minority and majority communities to have access to Radio- Canada programming and content on all platforms. It is also definitely an advantage for all minority citizens to have access to and to be able to reach issues that can be developed and broadcast in other regions, that can reach them as well and that can interest them. For us, the ability to broadcast regional programs on Tou.tv as well definitely increases the outreach of certain solely regional programs that have been produced for a regional audience and that are now available not only for a national audience, but, beyond that, to all potential subscribers.
Senator Robichaud: I am going to direct your attention to an utterly local scene, Saint-Louis-de-Kent.
A committee took various measures that had been announced to replace a nursing home, and they came to nothing. In response to a press release issued by the member of Parliament, the CBC and Radio-Canada came and did a news feature that appeared on their news broadcasts and that, I have to tell you, had quite an influence. The matter was resolved, not only because the CBC and Radio-Canada took action, but also because a number of people looked into the matter.
You realize that you have an influence at the local level and that, in certain cases, communities may depend on services that you can provide them. I say thanks to you. I say thanks to Radio-Canada and the CBC.
Also, recently, we were pleased about the appointment of Michel Cormier to the regional level, to Moncton, but we have heard that there was a transfer to Montreal.
Ms. Pleszczynska: Absolutely.
Senator Robichaud: We were a little uncomfortable as to whether Moncton was losing ground because someone who was entirely right for the Moncton position was being transferred. I hope that will not have any impact on the services received from Moncton. That is a comment and I understand that you probably cannot comment on the subject.
Since we are interested in the use of the Internet and new media, you say that CBC/Radio-Canada is the only news medium present in all regions of the country on the radio, television, Internet and mobile platforms. Who accesses those services, particularly the Internet and mobile service? I am interested in that. Do you have a large audience?
Ms. Pleszczynska: As regards the figures that I have for the CBC/Radio-Canada corporate site, I can tell you that there were 90,000 single hits last month and that one-third of visitors are francophones. For social media, one-third of visitors are francophone and two-thirds anglophone.
Senator Robichaud: Do you have an idea of the age of the people who use those sites? People my age hesitate a little more about using social networks, do they not?
Ms. Pleszczynska: Perhaps, but I would say that we are surprised to see the extent of Internet use across all age groups and all regions. And a number of the towns and villages furthest removed from the major centres now have access to high-speed broadband and use digital platforms to access content and take an active part in developing and sharing their opinions on topics of interest.
We have observed that this cuts across all ages, although young people probably acquire social media skills more quickly, but citizens of all ages definitely use our platforms.
Senator Robichaud: I ask the question because young people sometimes favour easy access — and not just young people; we should not single them out — and access is often easier for some in English. We are talking about MuchMusic. We are talking about all those programs. That is why I am interested in knowing how young people can access this. Back home, this can have an influence on the use of French, the proper use, if people can access those sites and if there are ways to encourage young people to migrate to those platforms.
Ms. Pleszczynska: We definitely have to be where the users are.
Most of our programs have a Facebook account and use Twitter and social media, not just to encourage conversation, debate, the exchange of opinions and a diversity of voices on all sorts of topics, but also to reach people who potentially would not know that Radio-Canada is there or that certain programs or certain types of content are available.
I have a brief anecdote as well. Two years ago, we broadcast a program by an independent producer from the Vancouver area. It was a documentary entitled Ouest qu'on parle français?, which focused precisely on the francophone community in British Columbia. Before the broadcast, we wanted to hold a pre-premiere event and to invite a francophone community that might not necessarily be the same as the one that appears at our doors every day and that we know through the francophone communities, organizations and institutions in the region.
We recruited the audience for our screening through Facebook. The invitation was sent out via Facebook. It was a great moment to have a house full, not with a lot of white faces, but with people of all colours, red, blue, green, all kinds of young people who came to watch us and to take part in that special program and in the debate that we held in public and recorded for broadcast on the place of French in British Columbia, and the transformation of the francophone reality in British Columbia, precisely the shift from a local francophone community, that of Mayarville, to one that increasingly consists of Africans, people from all continents who are settling in British Columbia and who speak French, and which is part of the rejuvenation and renewal of that population.
Senator Robichaud: Bravo!
The Chair: Thank you very much. Before going on to the second round, I perhaps have a few questions to ask you.
Canada has an act, the Official Languages Act. There are two official language minority communities in Canada, the francophone and Acadian community outside Quebec and the anglophone community in Quebec. In my opinion, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has obligations toward those communities under section 41 of Part VII of the Official Languages Act.
Now, you are doing great things. You have told us that today. That is obvious, and no one could say otherwise. However, so many concerns have been raised across Canada in recent years, not just unfounded ones, but concerns based on reports, studies and research that has been done, whether it be at the SNA in New Brunswick, by the Commissioner of Official Languages or even the reports of the CRTC, and it is always the same concerns that resurface.
Then there is CBC/Radio-Canada and its obligations with regard to its contribution to the development and vitality of our communities. And when we hear how CBC/Radio-Canada's five-year plan is developing, on what it is based, it is very hard to understand how CBC/Radio-Canada views its planning obligations. I find it very hard to see, first, how a five-year plan is being submitted because it is asking the CRTC to renew its licence. Second, in the official language minority communities, we have this tool, which is fundamental, which is so important, but which does not necessarily meet our needs and does not contribute enough to our development and vitality, and here we are at the mercy of a fund established by the CRTC, which draws on sources such as those you mentioned, and, if it is not renewed, we will have even less programming.
So how can we make sense of all that, when there are really two viewpoints, and I do not see how they can be reconciled. There are so many concerns, and they are so based on serious, in-depth studies and research, and they are not necessarily being taken into consideration.
Ms. Pleszczynska: Madam Chair, I have been at Radio-Canada for a number of years, and was first at the CBC before joining Radio-Canada. I have never seen a strategy where the place of the regions is so clear. There are three priorities: strong Canadian programming, roots in the regions and a future and investment in all digital platforms. This is quite a simple plan but one that says a great deal about Radio-Canada's priorities. I believe those priorities themselves, this five-year plan, are an indication of Radio-Canada's investment in, and the priority it attaches to, those communities and regions, including the minority regions as well as the majority regions, which sometimes also invest in themselves and want to ensure that they are present or that they reflect their needs on their own networks or the national networks.
The Chair: And would we be able to see a difference in this five-year plan that will extend into 2015?
Ms. Pleszczynska: I believe the plan is very directional and that it gives us all momentum toward a prioritization that we will take into account in each of the major events we have to face.
Senator Tardif: Do you use a section 41 lens in the decisions you make with regard to the five-year plan? That may be what Madam Chair meant in asking her question. You have the five-year plan, but you also have your official language obligations and your obligations under Part VII of the Official Languages Act, the vitality of the minority communities. Do you use a section 41 lens in making your decisions under the five-year plan?
Ms. Pleszczynska: We definitely use the lens in addressing all our obligations, under both the Broadcasting Act and the Official Languages Act.
Senator Tardif: And who does that in the regions?
Ms. Pleszczynska: We all have that responsibility; each of the branches has a responsibility, but we at regional services definitely benefit somewhat from the result of those efforts and of that work done across Radio-Canada, and, for the CBC, responsibility naturally lies with the English network. In the regions, it lies with the branch, whether it be in Quebec or western Ontario.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: We will soon know whether the Local Programming Improvement Fund is extended, altered or abolished by the CRTC.
Every year, people ask Radio-Canada to think about the francophones outside Quebec, or should I say outside Montreal, because there are also a lot of regions in Quebec that feel marginalized in the corporation's planning.
I very recently heard an Acadian complain that Radio-Canada barely managed to provide francophones outside Quebec with regional weather forecasts. According to that person, as far as Radio-Canada is concerned, Acadia seems to boil down to Moncton, St. John's or Halifax, whereas northern New Brunswick is mainly francophone, as well as the Gaspé Peninsula, Restigouche and Madawaska. So those people have to be content with an approximate weather forecast, which is that of the Lower St. Lawrence and Gaspé, because those regions are closest to them.
That person has often protested, sent letters and emails and has never had any success whatever. This is a little like what our colleague Senator De Bané was telling us about earlier.
My question is this: do you believe that financial self-sufficiency in the regions could be one way to renew Radio- Canada?
Ms. Pleszczynska: Senator, I want to answer you by saying that the Radio-Canada organization is a little like the country in that, in each of our regions, in each of our provinces, we have a management, priorities, objectives and strategies that are grouped centrally to ensure that there is consistency across the country.
However, for the specific question you ask about the need for local news, I find it hard to understand why your colleague, your friend or the person you are dealing with is unable to find local information because, in the past two years, we have substantially increased all local information and local content on our local programs. Now there is local weather on every one of our regional news broadcasts, from Vancouver to Moncton, for Acadia, and each of our news broadcasts provides that information several times during the broadcast hour.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: So inquire as to whether northern New Brunswick is covered as well.
Ms. Pleszczynska: It is there. The entire Acadian Peninsula and the Maritimes are there on the local newscast.
Senator De Bané: Madam, how many journalists work for Radio-Canada's regional services outside Quebec?
Ms. Pleszczynska: I could send you that information.
Senator De Bané: I would say that it is more than 200.
Ms. Pleszczynska: Absolutely.
Senator De Bané: Of that contingent of more than 200 journalists who work in the nine provinces outside Quebec, how many are talented young journalists who have completed their studies and who come from those nine provinces? And how many are Quebecers who have been sent to those provinces?
Ms. Pleszczynska: I would say that there is a balance between journalists and hosts because there is growth and development in a journalist's career.
Senator De Bané: How many Quebecers are in that contingent of 200 journalists?
Ms. Pleszczynska: I could not give you a percentage.
Senator De Bané: Now how many Radio-Canada journalists are there in Quebec?
Ms. Pleszczynska: I can send you those figures.
Senator De Bané: Would it surprise you if I told you there are more than the number of CBC journalists in Ontario, which obviously has a much larger population than Quebec?
Ms. Pleszczynska: I would not be able to make the comparison.
Senator De Bané: Madam, this has been an extremely profitable meeting. I have learned things, such as, for example, that the director of programming knows the exact number of francophones outside Quebec whose mother tongue is French, but has no idea about French speakers from the Americas, Europe, the Middle East or Africa whose mother tongue is not French but who speak French.
My mother tongue, madam, is Arabic, but I identify myself as a francophone, and I am not part of the limited group of those whose mother tongue is French. And I respectfully submit to you that your potential clientele is all persons who speak French, who understand French, particularly the hundreds of thousands of anglophones, my fellow countrymen who have learned French at school or at other times, in immersion or otherwise. Among others, I am thinking of the Minister of Canadian Heritage, who is your spokesperson in Parliament.
We have also learned that the director of programming has no idea of the percentage of network news, over a one- year period, that concerns Quebec, or of international news, or news concerning Canada as a whole or the Canadian provinces.
Madam Chair, with your permission, as we have two very competent individuals from Regional Services with us, I have a series of questions that, with the committee's permission, I would like to send to senior management of the entire network, both Radio-Canada and the CBC, through you, Madam Chair, so that we can get written answers to those written questions. I have a number of questions that I would like to ask them. Do I have the committee's permission?
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Why not?
Senator De Bané: Thank you. I will submit my list of questions to you.
The Chair: And we are going to send them. Is that correct?
Senator De Bané: Yes, through you, if you could have the kindness to send them to Radio-Canada's management. I want to thank the director of programming who will be sending us a list of journalists — I have it here, but it is not up- to-date — and obviously of Shared Services Centre Business Intelligence, from CBC/Radio-Canada.
If I could tell you more about it, which would surprise me, Madam Chair, I would say that the number of journalists at Radio-Canada is greater than the number of CBC journalists. The number of Radio-Canada journalists in Quebec is greater than the number of CBC journalists in Ontario.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator De Bané. Ladies, on behalf of the committee, I would like to thank you for coming to appear before us here as witnesses and for trying to answer the many questions that have been put to you. As you can see, we are very interested, and we very much believe in CBC/Radio-Canada and in the importance of the development and vitality of our official language minority communities. That is why we are conducting this study and why we have asked you so many questions. I hope you will understand that our intention is precisely to understand a little more clearly how you develop programming and how you are meeting your obligations under the Official Languages Act, more specifically Part VII.
Ms. Pleszczynska: Absolutely, thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you senators, and good evening.
The Chair: Honourable senators, the meeting is adjourned.
(The committee adjourned.)